51||0|4105|0|yes
0|0|0|||1||The Problem with Comics Today|Gryphon||01:00:25|07/24/2006|%28Reproduced here from my LJ%2C since not everybody here reads that - at least I hope not everybody hear reads it.%29%0D%0A%0D%0ASo Brad Meltzer%2C author of %5Bi%5DIdentity Crisis%5B%2Fi%5D%2C is writing %5Bi%5DJLA%5B%2Fi%5D now.  I noted this on my LJ and the %5Bi%5DCity of Heroes%5B%2Fi%5D comics-culture community board%2C saying that in light of what utter crap %5Bi%5DIdentity Crisis%5B%2Fi%5D was%2C %5Bi%5DJLA%5B%2Fi%5D thus was yet another entry on the very long list of DC titles I%27ll be taking a pass on.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis sparked a bit of a discussion on the CoH boards%2C and it took a few back-and-forths for the nut of what%27s really bothering me to crystallize.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt started with me posting there%2C to a thread about an interview Meltzer gave regarding his plans for %5Bi%5DJLA%5B%2Fi%5D%2C in which I said basically what I said above - that %5Bi%5DIdentity Crisis%5B%2Fi%5D was bullshit and I wouldn%27t be buying his %5Bi%5DJLA%5B%2Fi%5D.  This prompted a couple of people posting to say that they thought his characterization work was great in %5Bi%5DIdentity Crisis%5B%2Fi%5D%2C even if the plot was weak as shit.  This wandered off into a fanwanky discussion of a fight involving DC%27s worst character ever%2C Deathstroke the Terminator%2C and the Flash%2C and I was planning to just walk away from the whole thing when one of the participants said something that got my synapes smoking%2C to wit%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5D%22Characterization. Excluding the fight%2C which I%27ve already conceeding as being a piece of utter crap. Him dealing with Wally dealing with the revelation of what his uncle was a part of. All of that. That was good characterization.%22%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A... except that Barry would never have been a part of it in the first place. That was bad characterization. %5Bi%5DIdentity Crisis%5B%2Fi%5D is %5Bi%5Dbuilt%5B%2Fi%5D on bad characterization. Its basic premise is so wildly out of character for the bulk of the participants as to be completely unsupportable%2C which makes anything decent that might come afterward just so many nice curtains hanging above a broken window. In evidentiary terms%2C it%27s fruit of a poisoned tree.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhich I pointed out%2C causing someone else to note%2C%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5D%22I think that%27s addressed in Identity Crisis%2C somewhere in there it says something to nature of %27everybody says things were simpler back then%2C but they weren%27t%27%22%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AJesus Christ%2C talk about your self-serving retcons. %22If you look right here%2C it says that I%27m %5Bi%5Dnot%5B%2Fi%5D%2C either willfully or through ignorance%2C tarnishing beloved Silver Age characters%21 I%27m saying they were already tarnished and %5Bi%5Dyou just didn%27t know it.%5B%2Fi%5D%22 No. Sorry%2C Brad%2C doesn%27t fly with me. You screwed this up%2C either deliberately - which makes you a %22look how EDGY I am%22 jackoff - or through ignorance or incompetence - which makes you a bad writer.%0D%0A%0D%0AI suppose I shouldn%27t really be surprised at either. After all%2C I understand he%27s kind of a disciple of Geoff Johns%2C who is %5Bi%5Dboth%5B%2Fi%5D.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5D%22Barry did kill Professor Zoom to protect the woman he loved%22%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A... by accident%2C in the heat of a moment so sudden and unexpected that even the Flash was caught flat-footed%2C and he felt terrible about it for the rest of his life...%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5D%22so don%27t see how it was out of the realm of possibility to vote for a mindwipe%22%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%28Note to this guy%3A You seriously don%27t see the difference between a man accidentally using excessive force in the middle of a panic-stricken fight and a man sitting down%2C deliberating upon the matter%2C and then %5Bi%5Dvoting to permit the alteration of another person%27s psyche without due process%3F%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AIf that%27s true%2C I guess I can%27t help you%2C because to me there%27s all the difference in the world there%2C and it%27s a difference that Mr. Meltzer clearly either didn%27t comprehend or chose to ignore for the sake of shock value and kewl grittiness when he wrote %5Bi%5DIdentity Crisis%5B%2Fi%5D.%29%0D%0A%0D%0ANow%2C I recognize that at this point everything seems to be degenerating into a fairly standard Internet flamefest%2C but then this particular responder said something that pulled the whole thing together and made me realize that I was on the wrong track entirely%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DI really don%27t think Identity Crisis was about grittiness or shock value%2C those things were already present in the DCU long before this story was written%2C it was about the consequences of choosing the live a life behind the mask%2C and as shown in the story the consequences are terrible%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AEureka%21  Exactly. Yes. Suddenly I understand. Like so much else that%27s come down the pipe lately%2C %5Bi%5DIdentity Crisis%5B%2Fi%5D was at heart a story explaining that being a superhero is an awful%2C painful%2C grief-stricken%2C potentially deadly ordeal that will%2C at best%2C ruin your life and those of the people you love.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhich is %5Bb%5D%5Bi%5D%5Bbig%5Dwrong.%5B%2Fbig%5D%5B%2Fi%5D%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AWhen did it become some kind of unwritten rule that being a superhero has to be a horrible ordeal%3F Why is nothing in comics allowed to be %5Bi%5Dfun%5B%2Fi%5D any more%3F Sure%2C there have always been characters whose backstories have been tragic%2C and whose lives have carried with them more than the usual degree of angst%2C and as %5Bi%5Done element%5B%2Fi%5D in the makeup of a superhero universe%2C they were a valid piece of the overall picture. But now%2C it seems%2C %5Bi%5Deverything%5B%2Fi%5D has to be like that. %5Bi%5DAll%5B%2Fi%5D heroes have to be wretched souls whose heroism costs them and their loved ones in blood%2C pain%2C and death. What the %5Bi%5Dhell%5B%2Fi%5D is that about%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ASo%2C yeah%2C that guy%27s right%2C it%27s not %5Bi%5DIdentity Crisis%5B%2Fi%5D itself that I%27m so worked up about%2C even if it is badly-written trash that doesn%27t deserve to be anywhere near as popular as it is. It%27s the disease it%2C and so many other things like it%2C represents. The cancer that%27s killed all the joy in superhero comics. The one that started with %5Bi%5DWatchmen%5B%2Fi%5D and will end God knows where - with the total collapse of the industry%2C probably.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m doubly furious about %5Bi%5DInfinite Crisis%5B%2Fi%5D and its lead-in crap%2C including %5Bi%5DIdentity Crisis%5B%2Fi%5D%2C because it was all hyped as the %5Bi%5Danswer%5B%2Fi%5D to all that%2C the %5Bi%5Dcure%5B%2Fi%5D for %5Bi%5DWatchmen%5B%2Fi%5D Syndrome%2C and turned out to be its ultimate expression instead. Either Dan DiDio and Geoff Johns %5Bi%5Dtotally don%27t get it%5B%2Fi%5D and seriously think they did a good thing%2C or they just played us all for the suckers we are.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd I still don%27t think their pal Meltzer should be writing %5Bi%5DJLA%5B%2Fi%5D%2C but given that even if he wasn%27t%2C Johns would still be Creative Overlord over there%2C with his snickering henchmen Rucka%2C Morrison%2C and Gibbons bringing the gratuitous grit%2C stupid weirdness%2C and pointless death%2C respectively%2C what the hell.  It%27s not like he can make anything worse at this point.%5B%2Flj-cut%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AI wonder%2C sometimes%2C if there will %5Bi%5Dbe%5B%2Fi%5D a next generation of comic creators to clean up the mess this one%27s going to leave behind.  And whether anyone will care enough to watch them do it if there is.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A
1|1|0|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Gryphon||01:03:37|07/24/2006|BTW%2C when I posted this on my LJ%2C somebody immediately %28and rather bafflingly%29 turned it into a Western-comics-vs.-manga discussion.  Don%27t do that.  I%27m not talking about Serial Literature As A Metaphor For Life or anything here%3B I%27m talking about superhero comics and why nobody can seem to do them right any more.  There%27s no subtext here.  That is really my entire point.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A
2|2|1|||||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|VA_Wanderer||10:23:58|07/24/2006|I%27ll try to avoid going off the line of discussion.%0D%0A%0D%0AI think it%27s a sign of the times. DC and Marvel are trying to reflect the reality their writers are in...and that%27s a feeling that the world has become a gloomier%2C paranoid%2C and just plain more rotten place than it was.%0D%0A%0D%0ASkyscrapers are blown up- it%27s not just a comic book plot that%27s foiled at the last second by Superman. Spaceships turn into flaming dust over a southern sky and there%27s no Fantastic Four to stop it.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe words of the day are %22terrorism%22 and %22security%22 %28at any cost%29. There%27s a feeling that the real world governments are trying to pry into everything and register it in the name of stopping the first word and for the sake of the second. And that moral codes are being tossed out the window to do it. That body blow to %22Truth%2C justice and the American Way.%22 has finally%2C truly seeped into the mainstream comics industry.%0D%0A%0D%0ADC broke it%27s entire continuity %28again%29 to try and come to grips with this- like you%2C I think a lot of it is just plain wrong. Heroes deliberately committing murder %28Wonder Woman%29%2C setting up a network of paranoiabots %28Batman%29%2C attempting to destroy entire worlds in order to save their own willingly %28Superman-2%29.%0D%0A%0D%0AMarvel%27s always had that %22one step away from the abyss%22 mentality. Now it seems to be happening- using the Registration Act as an analogy for reality. Superbeings are WMD%27s. Register and be used by the system%2C or you%27re a terrorist and end up looking like Speedball%2C the picture image of %22internment camp metahuman%22. It%27s no longer more important to be good- it%27s important to be -legal-. %28Witness Captain America getting busted by Thor%2C and the Thunderbolts working hand and hand with Reed Richards%21%29%0D%0A%0D%0AThe big two are trying to come to grips with the real world by putting twists of it into their own works. And yeah%2C it leaves a bad taste in my mouth too.
3|3|2|||||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|BLUE||16:57:18|07/24/2006|%3EI%27ll try to avoid going off the line of discussion. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EI think it%27s a sign of the times. DC and Marvel are trying to reflect %0D%0A%3Ethe reality their writers are in...and that%27s a feeling that the world %0D%0A%3Ehas become a gloomier%2C paranoid%2C and just plain more rotten place than %0D%0A%3Eit was. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0AWell%2C I can see one problem with that argument right away.  Comics like %5Bi%5DSuperman%5B%2Fi%5D and %5Bi%5DBatman%5B%2Fi%5D that started in the 30%27s and 40%27s started out in the tail end of the Great Depression and led right into WWII.  Certainly not bright and shining times.  But the heroes were bright%2C shining%2C honorable%2C stand-up individuals%3B surely they were characatures and not-quite real%2C but that%27s what the medium was%3A a way to escape problems%2C if only for a time%2C and the one thing out there that everyone knew deep down that the good guy always would win.  And that the good guy always was GOOD.%0D%0A%0D%0AI don%27t think the times alone are responsible for the direction of comics today.  Lack of editorial direction and control%2C those are your more likely suspects.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn the modern quest to be %27edgy%27 and controversial%2C all the standards that the characters were held to for the first 40-50 years have been wiped away for the sole sake of selling more books%2C and in the process almost every book has become a copy-cat mish-mash of crappy plot%2C weak characterization%2C retconning%2C and just plain ignoring what has come before.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m not necessarily bashing on edgy and controversial%3B I loved the first two years of %5Bi%5DThe Authority%5B%2Fi%5D because they PURPOSELY crapped on almost all the accepted super-hero conventions.  But that book and those characters were created specifically to do just that.%0D%0A%0D%0ATearing apart yesterday%27s superheroes and doing a modern rebuild is so much crap%3B if the characters and comics aren%27t selling anymore%2C take the golden age approach and semi-retire the characters%2C and allow a new generation to come in.  Certain characters will always be around%2C but for the rest of them%2C lets leave them the way they were%2C allow them to retire%2C and bring in a new generation...wait%2C they did that story.  %5Bi%5DKingdom Come%5B%2Fi%5D.  Maybe they should look at their own examples of where edginess can lead before they completely destroy so many time loved characters.%0D%0A%0D%0A
20|4|3|||||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|VA_Wanderer||02:24:46|07/25/2006|%3ETearing apart yesterday%27s superheroes and doing a modern rebuild is so %0D%0A%3Emuch crap%3B if the characters and comics aren%27t selling anymore%2C take %0D%0A%3Ethe golden age approach and semi-retire the characters%2C and allow a %0D%0A%3Enew generation to come in.  Certain characters will always be around%2C %0D%0A%3Ebut for the rest of them%2C lets leave them the way they were%2C allow %0D%0A%3Ethem to retire%2C and bring in a new generation...wait%2C they did that %0D%0A%3Estory.  %5Bi%5DKingdom Come%5B%2Fi%5D.  Maybe they should look at their own %0D%0A%3Eexamples of where edginess can lead before they completely destroy so %0D%0A%3Emany time loved characters. %0D%0A%0D%0AThat%27s the whole problem with the current DC%2FMarvel universes.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe idea behind comics is to give you something -better-%2C not a twisted version of the real world. Heroes aren%27t supposed to be feeding you a bitter pill of cynical reality when you%27re reading the comics.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd now%2C they are. And for some reason%2C almost every new title is being tainted by that same urge to make things %22relevant%22 to now. If I wanted to read about the bad guys getting away and killing people%2C I%27d open a newspaper%2C not the funny papers. Rape. Murder. A thorough reaming of every moral%2C upstanding character in the book. Marvel turned Captain America into a criminal%2C and DC made Wonder Woman a murderer. What%27s next%2C Aunt May pulling a pistol and plugging Susan Richards in the head%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27d like a lot more of what%27s at the bottom of Pandora%27s box%2C too.
22|5|20|||||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|BLUE||15:53:38|07/25/2006|%3E What%27s next%2C Aunt May pulling a pistol and plugging Susan %0D%0A%3ERichards in the head%3F %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%0D%0ANow%2C if it was REED Richards that she plugged in the head%2C I don%27t think nearly as many people would complain.
4|3|2|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Peter Eng||17:24:56|07/24/2006|%3E%0D%0A%3EThe big two are trying to come to grips with the real world by putting %0D%0A%3Etwists of it into their own works. And yeah%2C it leaves a bad taste in %0D%0A%3Emy mouth too. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ve said it before%2C I%27ll say it again - when I read comics%2C I%27m in it for the pretty toy at the bottom of Pandora%27s Box%3A Hope.%0D%0A%0D%0AIf they want to come to grips with the real world%2C they can go ahead - I hear there%27s good money in that - but I%27m not buying unless there%27s some potential in the plotline they%27re writing.%0D%0A%0D%0APeter Eng%0D%0A--%0D%0AI%27m only a Charter Member because of the DCForum upgrade%2C and because there%27s no rank below %22Clueless F%21wit.%22
5|3|2|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Ardaniel||17:53:52|07/24/2006|You know the whole problem with that line of thinking at Marvel%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ASpeedball.%0D%0A%0D%0ASeriously.  If you%27re going to whole-hog the Darkness and Angst%2C don%27t unearth some lame-ass two-bit weaksauce motherfucker from your We Just Make Terrible Comics 1990s days as the poster child.  Make it %2Acount for something.%2A  Make it someone people recognize%2C someone people identify with. Robbie is not that guy%2C and trying to make him that guy just makes it a case of %22oh%2C right%2C Marvel editorial talks a big game but they%27re %2Aso%2A not going to follow through with any permanent changes to the universe.%22%0D%0A%0D%0APlus%2C it%27s sort of a pale imitation of Geoff Johns and his unholy leg-humping lust for the motherfucking Psycho-Pirate%2C and that just doubles the lame.%0D%0A%0D%0AArd Sumhenner%0D%0Athat Janice chick%0D%0AUsual Suspect and general menace
6|3|2|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|StaticdashPulse||17:56:24|07/24/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-11 AT 03:17 PM (EST)]%3EThe words of the day are %22terrorism%22 and %22security%22 %28at any cost%29. %0D%0A%0D%0ANot to sound crass%2C and certainly not to belittle any deaths that have come from and since 9%2F11%2C but the Golden Age of comics happened during the time of Nazi Death Camps%2C Nuclear Bombs%2C and Pearl Harbor.  The Silver Age happened when Apollo astronauts were burned alive on the launch pad and the threat of a nuclear strike sent people to build bomb shelters.  The times we live in are not any worse%2C really%2C than the 40%27s%2C 50%27s%2C and so forth.%0D%0A%0D%0ADuring those days characters like Superman and Captain America existed as means of offering%2C as someone else said%2C hope for tomorrow.  Not even just a better tomorrow%2C but just a tomorrow.  If superheroes today have to reflect the nastiness and hopelessness of our day%2C then they no longer serve their purpose.  If we %5Bb%5Dhave%5B%2Fb%5D to have Superboy beating up Krypto because Columnbine %28or pick your own News Event%29 happened%2C then what good are they%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAt that point the heroes should hang up their capes and let Naruto or Ben Tennyson act as beacons in the night...  And%2C for my money%2C they kind of already have and do.
7|4|6|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Ardaniel||18:01:45|07/24/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jul-24-06 AT 06:02 PM (EDT)]%3EAt that point the heroes should hang up their capes and let Naruto %0D%0A%3Eor Ben Tennyson act as  beacons in the night... %0D%0A%3EAnd%2C for my money%2C they kind of already have and do.%0D%0A%0D%0AGot nothin%27 wrt Naruto%2C but the brief sneak preview of the concept art for season-3 ep %5Bi%5DBen 10K%5B%2Fi%5D at Comicon was...%0D%0A%0D%0AWHY MUST 30-YEAR-OLD BEN BE SO HOT%0D%0A%0D%0AI FEEL DIRTY%0D%0A%0D%0AArd Sumhenner%0D%0Athat Janice chick%0D%0AUsual Suspect and general menace
8|5|7|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|StaticdashPulse||18:13:06|07/24/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-11 AT 03:18 PM (EST)]Now you know the shame that we fanboys feel whenever Gwen shows up%21%0D%0A%0D%0A%28O.K.%2C not really%2C I am kidding%2C but it seemed funny in my head.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DEDIT%3A%5B%2Fi%5D Also%2C what is this %22Ben 10K%22 of which you speak.  Google%27s being rather coy today.
9|6|8|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Wedge||18:17:51|07/24/2006|%3ENow you know the shame that we fanboys feel whenever Gwen shows up%21 %0D%0A%0D%0AOh%2C I know how you feel%2C but only because I had a mildly embarrassing moment with Gwen%27s voice actor yesterday%2C wherein I%27d mistaken her for the not-preteen wife of another friend of mine.  Oops%21  %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Btable border%3D%220%22 cellspacing%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%220%22%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%221%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.gweep.net%2F%7Ewedge%2Fufchad_ficon.jpg%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btd%5DChad Collier%0D%0ASmirking Kilrathi%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%230000CC%5DThe Captain of the Gravy Train%5B%2Ffont%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%221%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D
10|6|8|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Ardaniel||18:20:11|07/24/2006|%3EAlso%2C what is this %22Ben 10K%22 of which you speak. Google%27s being rather coy today.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s one of the first of the next season eps%2C set 10 years in the future.  I assume that means we%27ll see a legal version of Gwen%2C too.  %3B%29%0D%0A%0D%0AArd Sumhenner%0D%0Athat Janice chick%0D%0AUsual Suspect and general menace
11|1|0|||||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|mdg1||18:25:23|07/24/2006|It may be significant that%2C after 4 days of SDCC%2C the only new project that really  caught my eye is an upcoming new look at Robin Hood.  Oh%2C I%27ll still buy GD %28in multiple formats%29 and check out various titles by Morrison and%2For Simone%2C but I%27m so tired of %22realism%22 that I%27d just as soon assume the Marvel and DC universes ceased to exist.%0D%0A%0D%0AI miss the days when a hero enjoyed his life....
12|2|11|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Ardaniel||18:35:36|07/24/2006|%3EIt may be significant that%2C after 4 days of SDCC%2C the only new project %0D%0A%3Ethat really  caught my eye is an upcoming new look at Robin Hood.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat was it%3F I%27m always up for some good Robin Hood action.%0D%0A%0D%0AArd Sumhenner%0D%0Athat Janice chick%0D%0AUsual Suspect and general menace
13|3|12|||||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|mdg1||18:59:09|07/24/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jul-24-06 AT 07:00 PM (EDT)]%22Robin Hood%3A Outlaw%27s Pride%22 by Tony Lee and Sam Hart.  There was a Newsarama piece about it a while back.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn a weird twist%2C when I bumped into Tony at the Markosia booth%2C he recognized _my_ name %28from another forum%29.
14|4|13|||||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|BZArcher||21:38:50|07/24/2006|%2Alooks at Newsarama%2A %0D%0A%0D%0AWow%2C that does look neat. I thought you were talking about the upcoming BBC show until you pointed that out.%0D%0A%0D%0AI do think there%27s an arguement for %22Superheroes%22 as a lot of us grew up with surviving only in projects like this%2C though. People don%27t %28usually%29 try to overcomplicate folk heroes the same way that Comic heroes seem to be skewered lately%2C since there%27s that nice layer of history and myth over them. %0D%0A%0D%0AActually%2C the more I think about it%2C that%27s probably part of the problem. Most of the %22Save the girl%2C win the day%2C laugh as you go%22 archetypes like Robin Hood%2C Arthur%2C etx. tend to get that respect. Anything newer than the 1800s %28all that fun %22revisiting%22 of real life heroes like Wyatt Earp and the %27Old West%27 that kicked up a few years ago%29 seems to be pushed and prodded because they don%27t have that protection%2C and the tales are either set into historical record%2C or are considered literary subjects.%0D%0A%0D%0A-BZ%2C who  knows a guy working on a PH.D in Batman.
15|5|14|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Ardaniel||21:42:42|07/24/2006|%3E Most of the %22Save the girl%2C win the day%2C laugh as you go%22 %0D%0A%3Earchetypes like Robin Hood%2C Arthur%2C etx. tend to get that respect. %0D%0A%0D%0AArthur%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ASave the girl%2C win the day%2C sleep with your sister%2C have your bastard bring your kingdom low%2C have your woman fuck your best friend%2C laugh as you go%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ANot so much.%0D%0A%0D%0AArd Sumhenner%0D%0Athat Janice chick%0D%0AUsual Suspect and general menace
16|6|15|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Gryphon||21:46:24|07/24/2006|%3E%3E Most of the %22Save the girl%2C win the day%2C laugh as you go%22 %0D%0A%3E%3Earchetypes like Robin Hood%2C Arthur%2C etx. tend to get that respect. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EArthur%3F %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3ESave the girl%2C win the day%2C sleep with your sister%2C have your bastard %0D%0A%3Ebring your kingdom low%2C have your woman fuck your best friend%2C laugh %0D%0A%3Eas you go%3F %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3ENot so much. %0D%0A%0D%0AMaybe he means Arthur from %5Bi%5DThe Tick%5B%2Fi%5D.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A
17|6|15|||||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Moonsword||22:10:11|07/24/2006|King Arthur%2C frankly%2C should not have been included in that list.  The entire Arthurian cycle is a tragedy cycle centered on a set of good men laid low by their own humanity.  Like Ard%2C I fail to see the amusement value of the Arthurian myth in totality.%0D%0A%0D%0AThat said%2C I think the poster was referring to the early days of Camelot %28excepting%2C of course%2C the trickery - by Morgause%2C as I recall - that led to the birth of Mordred%29.  Then%2C his comment rings true.
18|7|17|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Wedge||22:26:55|07/24/2006|%3EKing Arthur%2C frankly%2C should not have been included in that list.  The %0D%0A%3Eentire Arthurian cycle is a tragedy cycle centered on a set of good %0D%0A%3Emen laid low by their own humanity.  Like Ard%2C I fail to see the %0D%0A%3Eamusement value of the Arthurian myth in totality. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EThat said%2C I think the poster was referring to the early days of %0D%0A%3ECamelot %28excepting%2C of course%2C the trickery - by Morgause%2C as I recall %0D%0A%3E- that led to the birth of Mordred%29.  Then%2C his comment rings true.%0D%0A%0D%0ANot really.  There%27s not any tragedy to be had if things %2Aalways%2A suck.  You%27ve got to have the golden period to have the arc%2C else there is no tragedy in the first place.  Focusing on a fragment of the arc out of context with the rest doesn%27t make it an archetype.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Btable border%3D%220%22 cellspacing%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%220%22%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%221%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.gweep.net%2F%7Ewedge%2Fufchad_ficon.jpg%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btd%5DChad Collier%0D%0ASmirking Kilrathi%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%230000CC%5DThe Captain of the Gravy Train%5B%2Ffont%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%221%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D
19|8|18|||||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|mdg1||00:32:42|07/25/2006|Here%27s the thing.  The classic hero cycles all end the same way... in death.  But along the way%2C there are still acts of heroism and derring-do.  The depressing bits are all at the end.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut in comics today%2C they seem to want to revel in the depressing bits.  Maybe it%27s because there IS no ending.
21|6|15|||||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|BZArcher||07:08:43|07/25/2006|I suppose I think of the %22Legendary Hero%2C United the people%2C will return again when we need him%22 rather than the Mallory version. %28Which also blows a hole in my idea%2C so there ya go.%29
23|1|0|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Peter Eng||16:15:20|07/25/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jul-25-06 AT 04:16 PM (EDT)]%3E I wonder%2C sometimes%2C if there will be a next generation of comic creators to%0D%0A%3E clean up the mess this one%27s going to leave behind. And whether anyone will care%0D%0A%3E enough to watch them do it if there is.%0D%0A%0D%0AI personally believe that there may have to be a whole new generation of comics.  I don%27t know if the mess that %5Bi%5DInfinite Crisis%5B%2Fi%5D and %5Bi%5DCivil War%5B%2Fi%5D are amplifying is fixable.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd there are people out there who would pay to see this mess fixed.  I%27m one of them.  But if I have to move to Astro City for the next ten years%2C wait for DC and Marvel to implode on their own lack of fun%2C and wait ten more years for the next good company to form up%2C I%27ll wait.  Wait%2C and hope.%0D%0A%0D%0APeter Eng%0D%0A--%0D%0A%5Bi%5DIn the end%2C it really comes down to looking for that prize at the bottom of Pandora%27s box. Hope. And that%27s why darker comics and darker heroes make me worry. I live in a world that%27s dark enough. I don%27t want the comics to reflect the real world. I want them to reflect what the world could be.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A
24|2|23|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Ardaniel||05:21:43|07/26/2006|%3EBut if I have to move to Astro City for the next ten %0D%0A%3Eyears%2C wait for DC and Marvel to implode on their own lack of fun%2C and %0D%0A%3Ewait ten more years for the next good company to form up%2C I%27ll wait.  %0D%0A%3EWait%2C and hope. %0D%0A%0D%0AThis is where I invariably note that the book that everyone wants to read first on my pull every month is Bill Willingham%27s %5Bi%5DFables%5B%2Fi%5D%2C although Matt Fraction and Gabriel Ba have Owned My House For Free with %5Bi%5DCasanova%5B%2Fi%5D of late as well.  Neither of these are superhero books-- Casanova Quinn is%2C er%2C rather a bit far from that sort of mold%2C and high-powered Fables seem to eat the shit end of the stick more often than their less-flashy counterparts-- but there just isn%27t much in the way of a good%2C uncomplicated hero read out there lately.%0D%0A%0D%0AArd Sumhenner%0D%0Athat Janice chick%0D%0AUsual Suspect and general menace
25|3|24|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|StaticdashPulse||12:21:36|07/26/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-11 AT 03:19 PM (EST)]%3E but there just isn%27t much in the way of a good%2C uncomplicated hero read out %0D%0A%3E there lately. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DMajestic%5B%2Fi%5D was the last one that I was aware of%2C and got it canned in less than two years.  I firmly believe the problem isn%27t that %22comics suck%22 so much as it is that %22comics as a medium have stagnated.%22  I think all the energy we used to expect from comics has moved on%2C following the tween and teens%2C to video games and cartoons.
26|4|25|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Wedge||14:08:57|07/26/2006|%3E%3E but there just isn%27t much in the way of a good%2C uncomplicated hero read out %0D%0A%3E%3E there lately. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DGravity%5B%2Fi%5D was the last one I can remember.  It was derivative%2C but in such a fun way that I didn%27t mind much.  %0D%0A%0D%0AMy verdict remains out until it%27s done %28sometime in the next 10 years%2C it feels like%29%2C but the last issue of %5Bi%5DJustice%5B%2Fi%5D started to Turn Towards The Light.  The bi-monthly schedule on that is sort of making it hard to follow%2C so it might read better as a collection.  %28On a side note%2C I realize the guy%27s talented and all%2C but Jesus Christ I wonder if Alex Ross%27s booth at Comic Con was as big as his frickin%27 ego.  There were television networks there with smaller setups.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5DMajestic%5B%2Fi%5D was the last one that I was aware of%2C and got it %0D%0A%3Ecanned in less than two years.  I firmly believe the problem isn%27t %0D%0A%3Ethat %22comics suck%22 so much as it is that %22comics as a medium have %0D%0A%3Estagnated.%22  I think all the energy we used to expect from comics has %0D%0A%3Emoved on%2C following the tween and teens%2C to video games and cartoons. %0D%0A%0D%0AOnly it hasn%27t.  I still manage to drop %2415-30 a week on my pull%2C and not out of rote habit-- I%27d been out of comics for almost 10 years before picking back up in 2004-- but for things I%27m honestly interested in reading.  There%27s plenty of new%2C interesting stuff being told in the format%2C you%27re just less likely to find it anywhere in the Big Two Proper.  I can count the number of books I buy a month with the Marvel badge or the DC bullet on one hand.  And while%2C yeah%2C a chunk of what I%27m buying is coming from DC imprints %28Vertigo%2C Wildstorm%29%2C many of them are coming from elsewhere.  I share Gryph%27s sense of wonder at the fact that Image%2C of all people%2C are pushing some of the best books on the rack now.%0D%0A%0D%0AWe were wandering the indie booths in San Diego this last weekend%2C and while Rob and Ard were poking around somewhere else I wandered into an adjacent booth to check out a model in a case behind the table the guy sitting there had set up.  It was a submarine made to look like a hammerhead shark%2C and as I checked it out he told me it was designed by one of the guys who did the models for %5Bi%5DThe Thunderbirds%5B%2Fi%5D.  He then proceeded to shove a free copy of his comic in my hand which was named%2C so help me%2C %5Bi%5D%5Blink%3Awww.thrillhousecomics.com%7CShark-Man%5D%5B%2Fi%5D.  %28I%27m not entirely sure who I was talking to now%2C though it certainly wasn%27t Ronald Shusett%2C sadly%29  I%27m sitting here giggling just at the thought of it.  So I took it and brought it home and%2C hey%2C it%27s not half bad.  Slightly goofy%2C a little disjointed in spots%2C but I%27ll give issue 2 a go.  Somewhere between Batman and The Phantom.  Underwater.  In the Future.  The first issue is out today in stores%2C if you%27re lucky enough to live near a shop that%27ll stock indy stuff.%0D%0A%0D%0ASo%2C I dunno.  You say stagnant%2C I say look harder.  %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Btable border%3D%220%22 cellspacing%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%220%22%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%221%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.gweep.net%2F%7Ewedge%2Fufchad_ficon.jpg%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btd%5DChad Collier%0D%0ASmirking Kilrathi%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%230000CC%5DThe Captain of the Gravy Train%5B%2Ffont%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%221%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D
27|5|26|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|StaticdashPulse||15:09:02|07/26/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-11 AT 03:19 PM (EST)]%3E So%2C I dunno.  You say stagnant%2C I say look harder.  %3A%29 %0D%0A%0D%0AToo much trouble.  Why dredge through so much junk when The SciFi Channel%2C The Cartoon Network%2C Toon Disney%2C The Discovery Channel%2C etc. happily stream it to me on a regular scedule.  Heck%2C thanks to Jetix.tv%2C I can watch %28at least one episode of%29 %5Bi%5DGet Ed%5B%2Fi%5D whenever I want%2C and let%27s not forget they sell %5Bi%5DMythbusters%5B%2Fi%5D at iTunes.%0D%0A%0D%0AComics%2C as a hobby%2C for me%2C are too much effort for too little reward.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DEDIT%3A%5B%2Fi%5D This is why I say comics are closer to vinyl records than pop culture.  Pop culture just happens%2C it%27s the media clutter you stumble over.  More and more I%27m hearing%2C from comic fans%2C that I need to dig deeper to find the good stuff.  That sounds more like antiquing or eBaying for flatware than it does anything else.
28|6|27|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Gryphon||15:16:42|07/26/2006|%3EWhy dredge through so much junk when The SciFi %0D%0A%3EChannel%2C The Cartoon Network%2C Toon Disney%2C The Discovery Channel%2C etc. %0D%0A%3Ehappily stream it to me on a regular scedule.%0D%0A%0D%0AHee hee hee.  I know you probably didn%27t mean it this way%2C but the literal interpretation of your statement is so very accurate.  %22Why go out to the comics shop and paw through crap when I have hot and cold running crap at home%3F%22%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A
29|7|28|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|StaticdashPulse||15:20:31|07/26/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-11 AT 03:19 PM (EST)]No%2C actually%2C that%27s what I meant pretty much. %3A%29
30|8|29|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Gryphon||15:22:28|07/26/2006|%3ENo%2C actually%2C that%27s what I meant pretty much. %3A%29 %0D%0A%0D%0AIn that case%2C I think you%27re being far too kind to the Cartoon Network when you remark that they stream you junk %22on a regular schedule%22.  Those clowns couldn%27t hit a time slot in the ass with a bass fiddle.  My TiVo knows.  Or knew%2C back when there was anything on CN I watched.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A
31|9|30|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|StaticdashPulse||15:32:05|07/26/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-11 AT 03:20 PM (EST)]%3E Those clowns couldn%27t hit a time slot in the ass with a bass fiddle.%0D%0A%0D%0ATouche and well met%21  You point is both apt and well taken.
32|6|27|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Wedge||15:35:51|07/26/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-06 AT 03:49 PM (EDT)]%3EComics%2C as a hobby%2C for me%2C are too much effort for too little reward. %0D%0A%0D%0AThen%2C frankly%2C the problem is with you and not with Comics.%0D%0A%0D%0AEdit%3A That came off as harsh.  My only point was that it%27s not that hard to look somewhere other than DC or Marvel.  But%2C you know%2C if your deal is you can%27t be arsed because the Entertain-O-Tron won%27t drop it in your lap without getting off the couch%2C that is%2C in fact%2C your problem and not a problem with anyone writing comics.  %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Btable border%3D%220%22 cellspacing%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%220%22%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%221%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.gweep.net%2F%7Ewedge%2Fufchad_ficon.jpg%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btd%5DChad Collier%0D%0ASmirking Kilrathi%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%230000CC%5DThe Captain of the Gravy Train%5B%2Ffont%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%221%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D
33|7|32|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|StaticdashPulse||15:49:40|07/26/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-11 AT 03:20 PM (EST)]%3EThen%2C frankly%2C the problem is with you and not with Comics. %0D%0A%0D%0AQuite possibly%2C but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth that comics aren%27t still the pop media they used to be.  They%27re a fantastic medium%2C a medium that still hasn%27t passed its prime %28paper is still way more of a dynamic%2C usable media than even CD%27s%29%2C yet it%27s squandered sitting in specialty shops.  I don%27t think it%27s be hard to find fun comics if the industry as a whole stopped being so self-important and realized they are to literature what %28uh%2C uh%29 Jessica Simpson is to Beethoven.
34|8|33|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Wedge||16:11:00|07/26/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-06 AT 04:19 PM (EDT)]%3E%3EThen%2C frankly%2C the problem is with you and not with Comics. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EQuite possibly%2C but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth that %0D%0A%3Ecomics aren%27t still the pop media they used to be.  They%27re a %0D%0A%3Efantastic medium%2C a medium that still hasn%27t passed its prime %28paper %0D%0A%3Eis still way more of a dynamic%2C usable media than even CD%27s%29%2C yet it%27s %0D%0A%3Esquandered sitting in specialty shops.  I don%27t think it%27s be hard to %0D%0A%3Efind fun comics if the industry as a whole stopped being so %0D%0A%3Eself-important and realized they are to literature what %28uh%2C uh%29 %0D%0A%3EJessica Simpson is to Beethoven. %0D%0A%0D%0AJessica Simpson is to Beethoven%2C Stephen King is to Shakesphere%2C Brett Ratner is to Akira Kurosawa%2C and Brian Bendis is to Brian Wood.  Or Matt Fraction.  Or Bill Willingham.  Or Garth Ennis.  Or about 30 other writers%2Fartists who are continuing on making great work just like every other artistic genre that functions doubly as an industry.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%2C for one%2C am glad Avi Arad is rolling in enough cash to quit Marvel and start his own production company.  Mainly because%2C hey%2C comic book movies pay my rent.  Commercialization sure puts out a lot of crap%2C but at the same time makes for a more fertile environment for everyone.  There are more comics I want to read now than there %2Aever%2A has been.  And if that means I have to suffer a zillion copies of %5Bi%5DCivil War%5B%2Fi%5D tripe on Golden Apple%27s rack to get to my copy of %5Bi%5DBattle Pope%5B%2Fi%5D%3F  So be it.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bsmall%5Dedit%3A Just like I had to wade through a zillion copies of %5Bi%5DX-Force %231%5B%2Fi%5D to get to my copy of %5Bi%5DHellblazer%5B%2Fi%5D or whatever else it was I was buying 15 years ago %28to the day%2C almost%2C in fact%29.  Are things %2Areally%2A all that different now%3F  %3B%29%5B%2Fsmall%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Btable border%3D%220%22 cellspacing%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%220%22%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%221%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.gweep.net%2F%7Ewedge%2Fufchad_ficon.jpg%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btd%5DChad Collier%0D%0ASmirking Kilrathi%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%230000CC%5DThe Captain of the Gravy Train%5B%2Ffont%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%221%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D
36|9|34|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Gryphon||16:34:03|07/26/2006|%3EJessica Simpson is to Beethoven%2C Stephen King is to Shakesphere%2C Brett %0D%0A%3ERatner is to Akira Kurosawa%2C and Brian Bendis is to Brian Wood.%0D%0A%0D%0APlease note%2C for context%27s sake%2C that in his own day Shakespeare was to fine literature as Stephen King is to Shakespeare. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0AAlso%2C I call foul on your mention of Garth Ennis%2C as his run on %5Bi%5DGhost Rider%5B%2Fi%5D may have been the least comprehensible comic book ever made.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0Aand yes%2C that includes the works of Howard %22Do What Now%3F%22 Chaykin%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A
37|10|36|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Wedge||17:01:57|07/26/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-06 AT 05:02 PM (EDT)]%3EAlso%2C I call foul on your mention of Garth Ennis%2C as his run on %0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5DGhost Rider%5B%2Fi%5D may have been the least comprehensible comic book %0D%0A%3Eever made. %0D%0A%0D%0AHeh%2C maybe.  The closest I%27ve come to reading a superhero %28I%27m not sure where else you%27d fit %5Bi%5DGhost Rider%5B%2Fi%5D%29 book he%27s done is his %27Welcome Back%2C Frank%27 run of %5Bi%5DPunisher%5B%2Fi%5D.  Mainly%2C when I reference Garth%2C I%27m thinking of %5Bi%5DHellblazer%5B%2Fi%5D%2C %5Bi%5DPreacher%5B%2Fi%5D%2C or any of his multiple indy war comics %28%5Bi%5D303%5B%2Fi%5D was a great read%29.  %5Bi%5DBattler Britton%5B%2Fi%5D%2C the first issue of which came out either last week or the week before%2C looks promising as well%2C enough so that I%27d be tempted to reccomend it to you.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Btable border%3D%220%22 cellspacing%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%220%22%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%221%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.gweep.net%2F%7Ewedge%2Fufchad_ficon.jpg%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btd%5DChad Collier%0D%0ASmirking Kilrathi%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%230000CC%5DThe Captain of the Gravy Train%5B%2Ffont%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%221%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D
38|11|37|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Gryphon||17:07:18|07/26/2006|%3EHeh%2C maybe.  The closest I%27ve come to reading a superhero %28I%27m not %0D%0A%3Esure where else you%27d fit %5Bi%5DGhost Rider%5B%2Fi%5D%29 book he%27s done is his %0D%0A%3E%27Welcome Back%2C Frank%27 run of %5Bi%5DPunisher%5B%2Fi%5D.  Mainly%2C when I %0D%0A%3Ereference Garth%2C I%27m thinking of %5Bi%5DHellblazer%5B%2Fi%5D%2C %5Bi%5DPreacher%5B%2Fi%5D%2C %0D%0A%3Eor any of his multiple indy war comics %28%5Bi%5D303%5B%2Fi%5D was a great read%29.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe Ghost Rider%2C as he appears in modern comics%2C isn%27t really much of a superhero%2C despite Marvel%27s continued attempts to portray him as one.  He was always the weirdly false note in team-ups he featured in back in the %2790s %28I have an issue of %5Bi%5DFantastic Four%5B%2Fi%5D featuring him%2C the Hulk%2C and Wolverine as guest stars%2C and he stands out like a sore thumb in every scene he%27s in%29.  As presented in more recent books%2C I think his milieu is more akin to something like a Vertigo title%2C but since Marvel hasn%27t got a Vertigo-esque imprint%2C he ends up getting lumped into the main Marvel universe.%0D%0A%0D%0AI gather Ennis is kind of a sought-after talent in Vertigo-esque circles%2C so you%27d think his run on %5Bi%5DGhost Rider%5B%2Fi%5D would%27ve been a triumph of sorts%2C but instead it was just an incomprehensible mess.  %28And badly illustrated%2C to boot.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A
46|12|38|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Peter Eng||12:12:09|07/27/2006|%3E%0D%0A%3EI gather Ennis is kind of a sought-after talent in Vertigo-esque %0D%0A%3Ecircles%2C so you%27d think his run on %5Bi%5DGhost Rider%5B%2Fi%5D would%27ve been a %0D%0A%3Etriumph of sorts%2C but instead it was just an incomprehensible mess.  %0D%0A%3E%28And badly illustrated%2C to boot.%29 %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3E--G.%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%0D%0AMy guess is%2C this is a case where the author just doesn%27t understand the character.  Somebody can write a good take on one character or group%2C then wander off and completely screw up a different character.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis is why I%27m not particularly inclined to follow authors - most of them%2C as far as I can tell%2C don%27t know what they%27re bad at.  Thus%2C Ennis on %5Bi%5DGhost Rider%5B%2Fi%5D%2C Willingham on %5Bi%5DRobin%5B%2Fi%5D%2C and a mess of other train wrecks from people that write really cool stuff some of the time%2C but don%27t understand the dynamics of something they didn%27t create.%0D%0A%0D%0APeter Eng%0D%0A--%0D%0AI%27m only a Charter Member because of the DCForum upgrade%2C and because there%27s no rank below %22Clueless F%21wit.%22
39|10|36|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Wedge||17:09:32|07/26/2006|%3EAlso%2C I call foul on your mention of Garth Ennis%2C as his run on %0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5DGhost Rider%5B%2Fi%5D may have been the least comprehensible comic book %0D%0A%3Eever made. %0D%0A%0D%0AAlso%2C I find it hard to give that prize to anyone other than Chris Claremont for %5Bi%5DX-Men%3A The End%5B%2Fi%5D.  Hoooly shit.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Btable border%3D%220%22 cellspacing%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%220%22%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%221%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.gweep.net%2F%7Ewedge%2Fufchad_ficon.jpg%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btd%5DChad Collier%0D%0ASmirking Kilrathi%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%230000CC%5DThe Captain of the Gravy Train%5B%2Ffont%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%221%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D
40|11|39|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Gryphon||17:10:49|07/26/2006|%3E%3EAlso%2C I call foul on your mention of Garth Ennis%2C as his run on %0D%0A%3E%3E%5Bi%5DGhost Rider%5B%2Fi%5D may have been the least comprehensible comic book %0D%0A%3E%3Eever made. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EAlso%2C I find it hard to give that prize to anyone other than Chris %0D%0A%3EClaremont for %5Bi%5DX-Men%3A The End%5B%2Fi%5D.  Hoooly shit. %0D%0A%0D%0AI was going to reconsider and give it to Howard Chaykin%27s %5Bi%5DGreen Lantern%3A Evil%27s Might%5B%2Fi%5D%2C until I remembered that %5Bi%5DEvil%27s Might%5B%2Fi%5D is %5Bi%5Dperfectly%5B%2Fi%5D comprehensible%2C it just %5Bi%5Dsucks.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A
42|12|40|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Ardaniel||17:21:00|07/26/2006|%3E%3EAlso%2C I find it hard to give that prize to anyone other than Chris %0D%0A%3E%3EClaremont for %5Bi%5DX-Men%3A The End%5B%2Fi%5D.  Hoooly shit. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EI was going to reconsider and give it to Howard Chaykin%27s %5Bi%5DGreen %0D%0A%3ELantern%3A Evil%27s Might%5B%2Fi%5D%2C until I remembered that %5Bi%5DEvil%27s Might%5B%2Fi%5D %0D%0A%3Eis %5Bi%5Dperfectly%5B%2Fi%5D comprehensible%2C it just %5Bi%5Dsucks.%5B%2Fi%5D %0D%0A%0D%0ADude%2C I%27m a 20-year X-fan and %5Bi%5DX-Men%3A The End of the X-Men%27s End with More Men and X-Men%2C My X-Men%5B%2Fi%5D was a %2Asteaming%2C festering pile of donkey cocksuck.%2A  I can %2Asend you my copies%2A if you require actual proof.  Just don%27t feed them after midnight%2C they might breed.%0D%0A%0D%0AArd Sumhenner%0D%0Athat Janice chick%0D%0AUsual Suspect and general menace
41|11|39|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|StaticdashPulse||17:18:41|07/26/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-11 AT 03:20 PM (EST)]%3EAlso%2C I find it hard to give that prize to anyone other than Chris %0D%0A%3EClaremont for %5Bi%5DX-Men%3A The End%5B%2Fi%5D.  Hoooly shit. %0D%0A%0D%0AYou%27re lucky if you think that%27s as bad as Claremont gets.  I%27ve read his %5Bi%5DSovereign Seven%5B%2Fi%5D series.  %2Ashudder%2A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DEDIT%3A%5B%2Fi%5D Wait.  Maybe I%27m the lucky one%2C I%27m thinking of a different X-Men story.
43|12|41|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Ardaniel||17:25:34|07/26/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-06 AT 05:27 PM (EDT)]%3EYou%27re lucky if you think that%27s as bad as Claremont gets.  I%27ve read %0D%0A%3Ehis %5Bi%5DSovereign Seven%5B%2Fi%5D series.  %2Ashudder%2A %0D%0A%0D%0AI had the most %5Bi%5Dfascinating%5B%2Fi%5D little chat at Comic-Con with a fellow who works on a Marvel title.  It ended with me telling the nice man %28and he was a nice man%2C don%27t get me wrong%29 that I was probably planning on dropping any book that Claremont picks up when he recovers.  The nice man expressed the sincere hope that I didn%27t wish Chris any ill as a person%2C to which I replied %22No%2C never-- I grew up on the man%27s work.  It%27s not Chris that%27s the problem%2C it%27s%2C er%2C Chris%27s Special Interests and his way of mentioning them on every page these days.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd the nice man looked up%2C smirked%2C and gave me the big OK sign.  We proceeded to have a nice conversation about Longshot%2C and nothing more was said about Chris%27s incoherent lust for mind-controlling dinos for the rest of my time at that table.%0D%0A%0D%0AArd Sumhenner%0D%0Athat Janice chick%0D%0AUsual Suspect and general menace
45|11|39|||||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|VA_Wanderer||03:58:42|07/27/2006|%3EAlso%2C I find it hard to give that prize to anyone other than Chris %0D%0A%3EClaremont for %5Bi%5DX-Men%3A The End%5B%2Fi%5D.  Hoooly shit. %0D%0A%0D%0AAt least it was aptly named for what came out of it. %28W%29Hoooly shit%2C indeed. I gave up on X-men for good around the Xorn%2FNot Xorn thing %28and I actually liked the inital Xorn-before-we-decided-to-make-him-Magneto thing.%29 though. At that point it%27d jumped a feeding frenzy%27s worth of sharks.%0D%0A%0D%0A%28Exiles is the only Marvel comic left on my pull list at this point. I get more fun out of stuff like KoDT and PS238 than 99.8%25 of Marvel.%29
47|12|45|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Wedge||15:43:22|07/27/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-06 AT 03:49 PM (EDT)]%3E%28Exiles is the only Marvel comic left on my pull list at this point. I %0D%0A%3Eget more fun out of stuff like KoDT and PS238 than 99.8%25 of Marvel.%29 %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DUltimate X-Men%5B%2Fi%5D has been really%2C really good%2C though I come from a standpoint of not ever having been a hardcore X-fan.  %5Bi%5DAstonishing%5B%2Fi%5D was fucking %2Agreat%2A for the first six issues%2C and then just completely fell apart in the second six%2C only barely holding together on Joss%27s dialog.  The third arc going on now is marginally better%2C but I don%27t know what his deal is%2C other than he%27s probably just playing tourist with the whole comics thing.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe biggest surprise of the last couple months%3A %5Bi%5DX-Men Fairy Tales%5B%2Fi%5D.  %233 just came out a week or two ago.  Fantastic art%2C well told.  Highly reccomended if your shop still has the backissues up%2C or for the inevitable trade when the run is up.%0D%0A%0D%0Aedit%3A Oh%2C and %5Bi%5DNextwave%5B%2Fi%5D.  Mustn%27t forget that.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Btable border%3D%220%22 cellspacing%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%220%22%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%221%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.gweep.net%2F%7Ewedge%2Fufchad_ficon.jpg%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btd%5DChad Collier%0D%0ASmirking Kilrathi%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%230000CC%5DThe Captain of the Gravy Train%5B%2Ffont%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%221%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D
35|8|33|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Gryphon||16:32:02|07/26/2006|%3EQuite possibly%2C but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth that %0D%0A%3Ecomics aren%27t still the pop media they used to be.  They%27re a %0D%0A%3Efantastic medium%2C a medium that still hasn%27t passed its prime %28paper %0D%0A%3Eis still way more of a dynamic%2C usable media than even CD%27s%29%2C yet it%27s %0D%0A%3Esquandered sitting in specialty shops.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis is almost entirely the fault of one company%3A Diamond.  The greedheads at Diamond drove most of the %22innovations%22 that made comics radically more expensive starting in the early %2790s - the glossy paper%2C the special covers%2C the tonier ads - because they wanted to create a collectors%27 market where one didn%27t exist %28namely in the %22modern comics%22 sector%29.  They apparently didn%27t realize that old comics are collectors%27 items not because they were manufactured to some costly quality standard but because they %5Bi%5Dweren%27t%5B%2Fi%5D%2C and thus became rare and hard-to-find.  Nobody pays %2440%2C000 for a copy of %5Bi%5DAction Comics%5B%2Fi%5D %231 because it%27s got a foil cover or because it contains part 1 of the radical%2C visionary %22The Krypton Agenda%22 story arc or any other such bullshit.  They pay that because there%27s only a few dozen copies of the magazine left in the world.%0D%0A%0D%0ASome of the most egregious features of that little trend have%2C happily%2C died off.  Most collectors have realized that they%27re not going to get rich sitting on a copy of %5Bi%5DGhost Rider%5B%2Fi%5D Vol. 4 %231 for ten years.  But the effects of that particular spasm of mercantile fancy remain.  People got accustomed to some of the new features and won%27t accept a return to the old style.  There aren%27t many holofoil covers%2C but nobody%27s going to accept a return to cheap paper.  The forces that drove comics off newsstands - mainly%2C the powers that be at Diamond%2C a virtual distribution monopoly%2C %5Bi%5Dnot wanting them there%5B%2Fi%5D - remain.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A
44|9|35|||||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|BLUE||00:24:01|07/27/2006|%3EThis is almost entirely the fault of one company%3A Diamond.  %0D%0A%0D%0A%3Emainly%2C the powers that be %0D%0A%3Eat Diamond%2C a virtual distribution monopoly%2C %5Bi%5Dnot wanting them %0D%0A%3Ethere%5B%2Fi%5D - remain. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%0D%0AHaving had to deal with Diamond personally because of my ex-wife%27s work%2C and that because of the fact that if Diamond DOESN%27T carry you your access to retailers is crap %28Diamond distributed any and all manga and%2For comics found at places like Borders%2C B%26N%2C etc%2C as well as your local comic shop%29%2C I can wholly and completely affirm that they stink like a rancid pile of pig shit.  I know for a fact that several companies have pursued filing anti-trust lawsuits against Diamond%2C but no one has the moxie to pull it off.  Anyone big enough to claim %27competitor%27 status died or was bought out long long ago.
48|3|24|||||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Norgarth||14:29:43|08/01/2006|A series that I like is Wildguard.  Actually%2C series isn%27t accurate%2C as it%27s been coming out as several mini-series.%0D%0A%0D%0AWildguard %28which is published by Image%29 mixes superheroes with reality TV.  It%27s kind of tongue in cheek.  There%27s even a character%2Fcontestant called Wannabe.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe first set is called %27Wildguard%3A Casting Call%27%2C a 6 issue series which covers the forming of the team %28also available as a trade paperback%29.  Then there was a 1 shot called %27Wildguard%3A Firepower%27%2C and more recently %27Wildguard%3A Fools Gold%27 which was a 2 part story.%0D%0A%0D%0Aoh%2C quick warning if you%27re interested%2C each issue of Casting Call and Firepower had 2 available covers.
49|4|48|||1||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Ardaniel||16:25:20|08/01/2006|I submit%2C good sir%2C that posting to the %22Problem With Comics Today%22 thread about a comic series about reality TV that also possesses variant covers...%0D%0A%0D%0A...might well be missing the point.  %28Now%2C if it was just a %22Comics That Don%27t Suck%22 thread%2C you%27d probably have to provide evidence of same%2C but I might not call you on it.  %3B%29%0D%0A%0D%0AArd Sumhenner%0D%0Athat Janice chick%0D%0AUsual Suspect and general menace
50|5|49|||||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|mdg1||19:21:00|08/01/2006|Actually%2C at least from my POV%2C the description of that book %28which may very well be a well-written story%2C as I%27ve not read it%29 includes at least two concepts that are on my list of red flags.%0D%0A%0D%0A1. %22Tongue-in-cheek%22.  While there%27s certainly room for humorous superhero comics%2C too often of late the humor has been at the expense of heroic ideals.  The idea of a hero that actually believes in heroic ideals is viewed as corny %28at best%29 or naive %28at worst%29%0D%0A%0D%0A2. Superheroes as pop culture.  Same sort of problem%2C really.  %22Who wants to be a superhero%22 gave me the twitches.%0D%0A%0D%0AAll I want are stories with heroes who act heroically%2C LIKE being heroes%2C and are being taken seriously.  Thankfully%2C I can get that here. %3A%29
51|3|24|||||RE%3A The Problem with Comics Today|Kendra Kirai||21:11:19|09/21/2006|First off%2C I know this thread isn%27t entirely recent%2C but it%27s not TOO far gone..%0D%0A%0D%0ASecond%2C I%27ve been having fun with some of the Image titles of all things%2C lately.  Invincible is a fun read%2C very much like Spider Man%2C with less angst. %28Spidey%27s a fun character%2C but man%2C between Venom%2C that whole clone thing%2C the Goblins%2C he%27s been dicked around more than any other comic character I can think of%29.  Also%2C while they aren%27t exactly %27fun and happy%27%2C there%27s been a couple of series by the Luna Brothers..Ultra %28Which actually shows a trio of superheroines as %2Apeople%2A and not just their costumes%29 and Girls %28Which is...odd.  I have no other way of describing it without spoiling anything.%29%0D%0A%0D%0AFables is indeed quite good..I%27s really%2C really interesting how they%27ve tied the various fairy tales and fables together.  %0D%0A%0D%0AThen of course there%27s Gold Digger%2C which%2C while not exactly a superhero title...%0D%0A%0D%0ALast I looked%2C Birds of Prey was still pretty fun%2C if anyone wants to check that out...%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s not exactly Superhero and it%27s not exactly happy-go-lucky%2C but %27Ex Machina%27 is also a good read%2C I feel...%0D%0A%0D%0AOh%2C and don%27t forget Nextwave and Great Lakes Avengers%2FX-Men.  They poke fun at superheroes%2C and they%27re both from Marvel.%0D%0A%0D%0APlanetary is fun%2C I feel%2C just to see the %27what ifs%27 of other companies...%0D%0A%0D%0AI also like Runaways%2C which%2C while not entirely happy-go-lucky again%2C is still fun. %0D%0A%0D%0AAlso%2C Y - The Last Man.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhile few of these are superhero comics per se%2C they%27re still quite enjoyable without a heaping helping of screwing with existing characters to make them %27edgy%27.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AOh%2C and one last thing...Batman%2C in the beginning%2C wasn%27t really an upstanding citizen of the world. He only became like that during the Comics Code Authority years%2C when anything that wasn%27t suitable for a God Fearing All-American Boy%28tm%29  was ruthlessly stamped out.  Even his distaste for guns was added later.  He killed people for not very much reason%2C he was rude%2C sexist%2C and just plain mean%2C even in his %27Millionaire Playboy%27 persona%2C and he didn%27t think twice about using guns.  Not saying his current portrayal is welcome%2C or%2C oh%2C what%27s the word...%2Asane%2A...%2Acompetent%2A...either one will do...It%27s that he%27s swung back%2C like a pendulum...except he went a bit too far to the %27dark side%27.  Now on top of being obsessed with justice and %27His City%27 and whatnot%2C he%27s also a paranoid monster who causes more trouble than he fixes.%0D%0A%0D%0A%27Quiet%2C or papa spank%21%27