10||0|1326|0|yes
0|0|0|||1||Another comics rant|Gryphon||16:57:26|07/25/2006|This one was prompted by somebody claiming that %5Bi%5DIron Man%3A Extremis%5B%2Fi%5D%2C in which Warren Ellis made complete nonsense out of my favorite Marvel character%27s origin%2C concept%2C and motivations%2C was some kind of allegory in which Tony Stark represents %22the world%27s techno-shaman%22 or some such mystic bullshit.  Even if I bought that that was Ellis%27s idea in the first place%2C which I don%27t%2C that might be the dumbest damn excuse I%27ve ever heard for Marvel writers%27 consistent inability to do anything right with Iron Man for the last 10 years.%0D%0A%0D%0ASo I said so%2C prompting the response%2C %27i think your view of iron man is both limited and limiting..%0D%0A%0D%0Aall you seem to be willing to allow a writer to do with him is %22rich guy in a suit of kick ass armor%27.if that is all he is premited%26l%3Bsic%26r%3B to be then why bother with him%3F%22%0D%0A%0D%0ABecause characters %5Bi%5Dneed%5B%2Fi%5D to have limits of that kind%2C %5Bi%5Dpendejo%5B%2Fi%5D. It%27s what defines them as one character and not another. Tony Stark is a wealthy inventor who created a brilliantly-conceived weapon in a time of desperate necessity and turned to using it for the greater good out of a combination of thrillseeking and altruism. He believes in the practical truths of physics and engineering. Trying to apply some kind of pseudo-mystic connotation to that turns him into someone else. He ceases to be Tony Stark%2C the invincible Iron Man%2C and becomes... something else.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis applies to pretty much any superhero. They have features that define them%2C and writers messing around with those features automatically invalidate their work. Too many comic writers seem to have ideas for original characters of their own%2C but rather than work with those characters%2C they get jobs writing established characters and turn them into what they%27d rather be working on. That%27s not evolution or innovation%2C it%27s just writers going %22Look at me%21 I%27ve put my mark on this%21%22%0D%0A%0D%0AI don%27t want your %22mark%22 if you%27re writing an established character whose theme and personality are already well-defined. If I may borrow a simile from Bourdain%2C it%27s like restaurant cooking. I go to a steak place and order a steak%2C I expect to get a steak%2C just like the last time I ordered one at that restaurant. I don%27t want some would-be Thomas Keller in the kitchen deciding to send me some witty and fanciful culinary masterpiece instead%3B I want the steak I ordered%2C prepared by a competent craftsman who knows what to do with a steak. Established comic-book characters are the same way. You sign up to write for Iron Man%2C I expect Iron Man stories%2C not %22Hey%2C what if I redefined Iron Man for the ironic post-digital age%3F%22%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A
1|1|0|||||RE%3A Another comics rant|ratinox||13:43:10|07/26/2006|That mark-leaving isn%27t new.  Remember when Superman was faster than a speeding bullet%2C more powerful than a locomotive%2C and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound... and that was it%3F  He wasn%27t invulnerable%2C just tough enough to take a direct hit from a %22bursting shell%22.  He couldn%27t fly.  He didn%27t heat vision or freezing breath or any of the plethora of other abilities that writers over the years have been stacking on him.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m sure that the marking has not always been intentional.  For example%2C Superman%27s ability to fly was a convenience of the serials and not an intentional %22look%21 I gave Superman another power%21%22 trip.  It did set the stage for later writers giving Superman and other heroes whatever power or ability would solve their latest connundrums.  That in turn lead to Crisis on Infinite Earths.  The stated reason for Crisis was to resolve and unify continuity but the unstated reason was because DC had a slew of omnipotent characters who could solve any problems thrown at them.  Characters without limitations just aren%27t interesting.%0D%0A%0D%0AI think that backfired.  Yes%2C Crisis achieved both its stated and unstated goals but it made reinventing one%27s universe every few decades a regular practice rather than a one time ever thing.  This allowed for%2C and even encouraged%2C gratuitous marking because hey%21 the universe will be reinvented again so all my changes that some fans don%27t like will be reset.  It also gave writers who knew the unstated reason the idea that if a limitation makes a character interesting then crippling a character would make him more interesting.%0D%0A%0D%0AIs it any wonder that the last American superhero comic series I bought and read was James Robinson%27s Starman%3F
2|2|1|||1||RE%3A Another comics rant|Gryphon||14:01:34|07/26/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-06 AT 02:03 PM (EDT)]%3EThat mark-leaving isn%27t new.  Remember when Superman was faster than a %0D%0A%3Espeeding bullet%2C more powerful than a locomotive%2C and able to leap %0D%0A%3Etall buildings in a single bound... and that was it%3F  He wasn%27t %0D%0A%3Einvulnerable%2C just tough enough to take a direct hit from a %22bursting %0D%0A%3Eshell%22.  He couldn%27t fly.  He didn%27t heat vision or freezing breath or %0D%0A%3Eany of the plethora of other abilities that writers over the years %0D%0A%3Ehave been stacking on him. %0D%0A%0D%0ASuperman accumulating new powers isn%27t the kind of thing I%27m talking about%2C though.  That%27s evolution%3B it%27s a natural process.  I%27m not saying %28as the poster I was talking to on the CoH boards thought%29 that Iron Man should still be wearing the grey cast-iron suit powered by the Miracle of Transistors.  Superman gaining things like flight and heat vision%2C and increasing in overall power%2C as the stories he%27s in get more %22super%22 - remember%2C in his early appearances he was basically fighting gangsters and corrupt mine owners and the like - doesn%27t bother me%2C any more than I see Iron Man%27s armor streamlining and acquiring more weapons and gadgets as some kind of writerly betrayal.  Sure%2C it was taken to a pretty goofy extreme in Superman%27s case - I mean%2C super-freeze breath%3F - but I don%27t think it%27s a symptom of the same disease.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat %5Bi%5DI%27m%5B%2Fi%5D talking about is crap like %22Hey%2C I know - what if Superman were a Being of Pure Energy instead of a super-strong guy from Krypton%3F  Or what if he dressed all in black and had %5Bi%5Dknives%5B%2Fi%5D and was %5Bi%5Dbadass%3F%5B%2Fi%5D%22  Wholesale abandonment of what the character is supposed to stand for in favor of some entirely new concept the writers and%2For editors think would be kewl%2C but which would really work much better as the concept for %5Bi%5Da whole new character.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThat%27s what %5Bi%5DExtremis%5B%2Fi%5D did to Iron Man%2C IMO.  It abandoned his origin and his theme in favor of Warren Ellis wanking over nanotech%2C bionic parts%2C and the surveillance state.  %5Bi%5DExtremis%5B%2Fi%5D is Iron Man%27s %5Bi%5DSuperman Blue%5B%2Fi%5D.%0D%0A%0D%0AYou%27re right about %5Bi%5DCrisis%5B%2Fi%5D%2C though%3B it inadvertently created many more %28and worse%21%29 problems than it solved%2C and set an unfortunate precedent that the whole industry has been going back to over and over ever since.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A
3|3|2|||||RE%3A Another comics rant|ratinox||15:06:26|07/26/2006|I used Superman as an example because he is so well-known.  I wasn%27t picking on him specifically.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe natural evolution of a character is a good thing.  Characters should grow and change.  A character that does not grow is as boring as an omnipotent character that never faces genuine challenge.  The bad thing%2C the diseased aspect of evolution and change%2C is when writers force unnatural changes on characters.  That can range from forcing a character to say or do something out of character to such wholesale reconstructions as Superman Blue.
4|3|2|||1||RE%3A Another comics rant|StaticdashPulse||15:29:39|07/26/2006|%3E That%27s what Extremis did to Iron Man%2C IMO. It abandoned his origin and his theme%0D%0A%3E in favor of Warren Ellis wanking over nanotech%2C bionic parts%2C and the %0D%0A%3E surveillance state. Extremis is Iron Man%27s Superman Blue.%0D%0A%0D%0AIf you don%27t mind me asking%2C do you think Extremis %28solely as the technology presented%29 is a bad idea as far as Iron Man upgrades go%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AI ask because Extremis doesn%27t really give him any more powers than he%27s had on previous authors%27 runs.  He%27s had an artificial nervous system before%2C he%27s had a goopy%2C yellow armor %28S.K.I.N.%29%2C and he%27s had neural-jacks %28at least he did in %5Bu%5DThe Iron Trap%5B%2Fu%5D novel%29.  It just kind of gives it to him in one%2C lump vitamin.%0D%0A%0D%0AI guess...  I hate to ask it this way...  Does Tony being able to multitask and get emails to his brain change the core character or is it something else that I%27ve just not grokked from your other posts%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m curious because in a lot of conversations %28with myself and other people%29%2C I typically favor Extremis based on the theory that to stay on top of technology%2C Tony will have to give in to cyberpunk-ish cybernetic upgrades and I%27ll have to accept an Iron Man who just doesn%27t wear the suit%2C but who is the suit.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bb%5DAndrew Burton%5B%2Fb%5D%2C aka Static-Pulse%0D%0A%5Blink%3Autilitarian.us%2F%7CA Guide To Esoteric Technology in Paragon City%5D
5|4|4|||1||RE%3A Another comics rant|Gryphon||16:46:23|07/26/2006|%3EIf you don%27t mind me asking%2C do you think Extremis %28solely as the %0D%0A%3Etechnology presented%29 is a bad idea as far as Iron Man upgrades go%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AYes.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EI ask because Extremis doesn%27t really give him any more powers than %0D%0A%3Ehe%27s had on previous authors%27 runs.%0D%0A%0D%0AActually%2C it does%2C and i%27ll get into that in a moment.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E he%27s had a goopy%2C yellow armor %28S.K.I.N.%29%0D%0A%0D%0AMy beef with the %22liquid metal%22 armor introduced in %5Bi%5DExtremis%5B%2Fi%5D isn%27t that it%27s a liquid.  My beef with it is that it %5Bi%5Dcomes out of Tony Stark%27s skin.%5B%2Fi%5D  SKIN had to be carried in one of the solid sections of the armor and deployed from there.  It was a piece of equipment%2C not a superpower.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EHe%27s had an artificial nervous system before%2C and he%27s had neural-jacks%0D%0A%0D%0A%28I put these together because they were really the same %22upgrade%22.%29%0D%0A%0D%0AI didn%27t particularly like the %22artificial nervous system%22 plot either%2C to be fair - it was a typical John Byrne %22wait%2C what%3F%22 plot%2C and it led to a lot of goofiness.  Most subsequent writers just kind of brushed it under the rug or ignored it altogether because they weren%27t sure what to do with it.  Still%2C sure%2C I%27ll buy that giving a man cybernetic interface capabilities - which is all the artificial nervous system from Vol. 1 really did - may not fundamentally change his character.  It%27s an evolutionary advancement that keeps up with the wave of technology%2C and reflects a sort of cyberpunk ethic that isn%27t too out of place with Iron Man.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat bugs me about the way it%27s handled in %5Bi%5DExtremis%5B%2Fi%5D is the answer to your next question.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EI guess...  I hate to ask it this way...  Does Tony being able to %0D%0A%3Emultitask and get emails to his brain change the core character%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AYes.  I think it does.  Possessing the capability for cybernetic interface is one thing%3B possessing %5Bi%5Dcybernetic omniscience%5B%2Fi%5D is quite another%2C and that%27s what Ellis gave him in %5Bi%5DExtremis%5B%2Fi%5D.  That whole %22get your phone%2C it%27s me talking from inside my head just to show off%22 thing%2C and %22I can see through all the satellites at once%22%2C and %22I%27m attending a board meeting at exactly the same time that I%27m saving the Twilight Shoreliner from derailment just outside DC%22%2C and other such bullshit.  Give a man the ability to do all that and he isn%27t really human any more.  He%27s some kind of whacked-out %5Bi%5DLawnmower Man%5B%2Fi%5D universal-interface brain-in-a-jar.  I find it terribly at odds with the idea%2C which I think is central to Iron Man%2C that under the metal shell he%27s just a man.  A very clever man%2C yes%2C a very courageous man%2C not your ordinary sort of everyday man on the street%2C but a man.  Not some kind of constantly-uplinked omniscient machine intelligence that walks like one.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EI%27m curious because in a lot of conversations %28with myself and other %0D%0A%3Epeople%29%2C I typically favor Extremis based on the theory that to stay %0D%0A%3Eon top of technology%2C Tony will have to give in to cyberpunk-ish %0D%0A%3Ecybernetic upgrades and I%27ll have to accept an Iron Man who just %0D%0A%3Edoesn%27t wear the suit%2C but who is the suit. %0D%0A%0D%0AYeah%2C see%2C and I don%27t buy that%2C so there we are.  Cybernetic interface to make the suit work more efficiently%3F  OK%2C sure%2C I can see that.  Hell%2C we%27ve had that since the %2770s%2C it just worked without wires and jacks and Edgy Cyberpunk Stylee %28the suit%27s been %22brainwave controlled%22 for decades%2C depending on whether the writer that month remembered%29.  But the yellow part of the armor oozing out of his skin%3F  His brain connected to every computer on Earth%2C capable of processing simultaneous input from surveillance satellites%2C his email inbox%2C everybody else%27s cellphone%2C the armor%2C remote armors%2C his microwave oven at home%2C and the Spice Channel%3F  No.  That%27s not Iron Man%3B that%27s not a man at all.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A
8|5|5|||1||RE%3A Another comics rant|Ardaniel||17:23:42|07/29/2006|That%27s also a not-man who can%27t pull any hot%2C dangerous chicks.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd let%27s face it%2C Tony Stark is in this business to pull hot%2C dangerous chicks.%0D%0A%0D%0AArd Sumhenner%0D%0Athat Janice chick%0D%0AUsual Suspect and general menace
9|6|8|||1||RE%3A Another comics rant|Gryphon||17:34:17|07/29/2006|%3EThat%27s also a not-man who can%27t pull any hot%2C dangerous chicks. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EAnd let%27s face it%2C Tony Stark is in this business to pull hot%2C %0D%0A%3Edangerous chicks. %0D%0A%0D%0ADamn straight%21%0D%0A%0D%0AThat%27s the real solution to this %5Bi%5DCivil War%5B%2Fi%5D stupidity%2C as it happens.  He obviously needs Natasha to stop by and screw his head back on straight.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A
6|3|2|||||RE%3A Another comics rant|rwpikul||01:20:25|07/28/2006| %0D%0A%3ESure%2C it was taken to a pretty goofy extreme in Superman%27s case - I %0D%0A%3Emean%2C super-freeze breath%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAs a small point of order%3A  That power actually makes sense for a high power brick like Superman.  Super-strong internal muscles allow him to take advantage of the cooling effect of an expanding gas.%0D%0A
7|4|6|||1||RE%3A Another comics rant|Gryphon||03:02:43|07/28/2006|%3E%0D%0A%3E%3ESure%2C it was taken to a pretty goofy extreme in Superman%27s case - I %0D%0A%3E%3Emean%2C super-freeze breath%3F%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EAs a small point of order%3A  That power actually makes sense for a high %0D%0A%3Epower brick like Superman.  Super-strong internal muscles allow him to %0D%0A%3Etake advantage of the cooling effect of an expanding gas. %0D%0A%0D%0AMaybe.  But you can only fit so much gas into a guy%2C super-strong diaphragm or not.  The humanoid breathing mechanism isn%27t really suited to compressing air.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A
10|4|6|||||RE%3A Another comics rant|ratinox||20:22:58|07/29/2006|%3ESuper-strong internal muscles allow him to %0D%0A%3Etake advantage of the cooling effect of an expanding gas. %0D%0A%0D%0AAnd the compression is what generates the heat for his heat vision%2C right%3F  Dude%2C it%27s a comic book.  It doesn%27t need to strictly follow the laws of nature.  Doing impossible things is what makes our larger than life heroes larger than life heroes.%0D%0A%0D%0AThat was a little unfair but it does get back to my point.  Being able to rationalize or justify something does not make it the right thing to do.