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0|0|0|||1||y%27know...|Gryphon||22:14:49|10/11/2014|... 23 years later%2C %22Smells Like Teen Spirit%22 still doesn%27t make any goddamned sense%2C but with that hook%2C it also still doesn%27t really need to.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A%5Bfont size%3D%221%22%5Dwith the lights out%2C it%27s less dangerous%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D
1|1|0|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|Mercutio||04:19:23|10/12/2014|Is it wrong that I%27m really glad I%27m too young for Nirvana to have been at all relevant to me%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AI mean%2C they were fine music-makers and all. But Christ on a bike%2C Gen-X%27ers talk about Cobain like he single-handedly saved music as we know it. And it%27s like %22is this a cultural thing%3F Would I be part of your weird cult too if I%27d been born in the seventies%2C talking about the pilgrimage I made to Kurt%27s grave in %2797 and still muttering angrily about Soundgarden%27s breakup%3F%22%0D%0A%0D%0A-Merc%0D%0AKeep Rat
2|2|1|||||RE%3A y%27know...|Croaker||13:35:15|10/12/2014|%3EIs it wrong that I%27m really glad I%27m too young for Nirvana to have %0D%0A%3Ebeen at all relevant to me%3F %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EI mean%2C they were fine music-makers and all. But Christ on a bike%2C %0D%0A%3EGen-X%27ers talk about Cobain like he single-handedly saved music as we %0D%0A%3Eknow it. And it%27s like %22is this a cultural thing%3F Would I be part of %0D%0A%3Eyour weird cult too if I%27d been born in the seventies%2C talking about %0D%0A%3Ethe pilgrimage I made to Kurt%27s grave in %2797 and still muttering %0D%0A%3Eangrily about Soundgarden%27s breakup%3F%22 %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3E-Merc %0D%0A%3EKeep Rat %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AWell. Not to date myself%2C but.%0D%0A%0D%0ABorn in the 70s.%0D%0A%0D%0ANever gave a %2A%2A%2A%2A about Nirvana. 
12|3|2|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|BobSchroeck||14:07:39|10/13/2014|%3EBorn in the 70s. %0D%0A%3ENever gave a %2A%2A%2A%2A about Nirvana. %0D%0A%0D%0ABorn in the early sixties.%0D%0AKinda liked what Nirvana I heard%2C never went out of my way to find more.%0D%0A%0D%0A-- Bob%0D%0A-------------------%0D%0AMy race is pacifist and does not believe in war.  We kill only out of personal spite.
3|2|1|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|Peter Eng||14:20:45|10/12/2014|%3EIs it wrong that I%27m really glad I%27m too young for Nirvana to have %0D%0A%3Ebeen at all relevant to me%3F %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%0D%0AWasn%27t relevant to me%2C either.  Well%2C not directly relevant.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EI mean%2C they were fine music-makers and all. But Christ on a bike%2C %0D%0A%3EGen-X%27ers talk about Cobain like he single-handedly saved music as we %0D%0A%3Eknow it. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%0D%0AI haven%27t a clue why that is.%0D%0A%0D%0APeter Eng%0D%0A--%0D%0AWell we don%27t sound like Madonna%0D%0AHere we are now - we%27re Nirvana%0D%0AA garage band from Seattle%0D%0AWell it sure beats raisin%27 cattle%0D%0AYEAH%21
4|2|1|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|Gryphon||14:42:13|10/12/2014|%3EIs it wrong that I%27m really glad I%27m too young for Nirvana to have %0D%0A%3Ebeen at all relevant to me%3F %0D%0A%0D%0ANot as such%2C although ironically...%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EI mean%2C they were fine music-makers and all. But Christ on a bike%2C %0D%0A%3EGen-X%27ers talk about Cobain like he single-handedly saved music as we %0D%0A%3Eknow it. And it%27s like %22is this a cultural thing%3F Would I be part of %0D%0A%3Eyour weird cult too if I%27d been born in the seventies%0D%0A%0D%0A... in aping %28perhaps inadvertently%29 that dismissive too-cool-for-school thing the band%27s anti-fans did at the time%2C you are plugging yourself into another part of the same cultural phenomenon.%0D%0A%0D%0ANirvana was one of those bands that have basically four listener demographics%3A rabid fans%2C people who think they had their moments%2C people who aren%27t aware of them%2C and rabid anti-fans.  A lot of bands only make it to the middle two%2C and a vanishingly rare view end up with the top three and not the bottom one%2C but most of your really influential acts will wind up with all four%2C in varying proportions.%0D%0A%0D%0AMe%2C I was in group two.  I have a copy of %5Bi%5DNevermind%5B%2Fi%5D %28I think they might have been issued to all Americans in their late teens and early 20s at the time of publication by the government%2C possibly with reference to census data%29%2C and I have particular personal reasons for being amused and nostalgic about digging it out now and again and playing it%2C but I never got into them enough to buy any of their other albums or learn the names of anybody else who was in the band %28I know Dave Grohl from the Foo Fighters%2C and only found out later that he was a Nirvana alumnus%29.%0D%0A%0D%0ANone of which affects my opinion that %22Smells Like Teen Spirit%22 has a rockin%27 good hook%2C which%2C as you may recall was all my original post was about. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%28Other artists have noticed this.  There was Al Yankovic%27s parody about how puzzling the lyrics were%2C of course%2C but I knew a guy who took it a step farther than that - back in the WPI Elder Days%2C Jim Tyrrell would occasionally play a cover of it in which each of the words was replaced with %22blah%22%2C simultaneously mocking the original lyrics and pointing out that the song%27s musically strong enough that it doesn%27t even really need them. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0AIn the spring of 1994%2C when I was working phone support at Leading Edge%2C we had a lot of long%2C awkward pauses in most calls because the Borland Paradox database we were using to track problem tickets was so slow... but the awkwardest by far as the one in which the caller %28who had sounded perfectly normal up to that time%29 asked%2C%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Hey%2C man.  You hear about Kurt Cobain%3F%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Uh%2C yeah%2C%22 I said%2C slightly distracted by the doings on my end.  %22Tragic%2C huh%3F%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Yeah.%22  Pause%2C and then%2C in exactly the same matter-of-fact tone of voice%3A %22It was the CIA%2C man.%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%22... Huh%3F%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%22It was the CIA%2C%22 the caller repeated.  %22They did Kurt just like they did %5Blink%3Aen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FDel_Shannon%7CDel Shannon%5D.%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Um... OK%2C I%27ve got the next screen now%2C let me just verify your address...%22%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D
5|3|4|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|The Traitor||18:04:04|10/12/2014|The adulation of nirvana%2C as with all mythical places%2C is just a truck stop people go through while moving on towards something more real%2C more personal%2C and more suited to them. Someone%27s gotta work there%2C someone%27s gotta charge too much for BLTs of deeply suspect provenance%2C but nobody really wants it to be them.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis metaphor brought to you by Metaphor Torturers PLC. Find us on Facebook like vultures squatting on the rotting carcass of a particularly scrofulous wildebeest.%0D%0A%0D%0A---%0D%0A%22She%27s old%2C she%27s lame%2C she%27s barren too%2C %2F%2F %22She%27s not worth feed or hay%2C %2F%2F %22But I%27ll give her this%2C%22 - he blew smoke at me - %2F%2F %22She was something in her day.%22 -- Garnet Rogers%2C %5Bi%5DSmall Victory%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AFiMFiction.net%3A we might accept blatant porn involving the cast of My Little Pony but as God is my witness we have %5Bi%5Dstandards%5B%2Fi%5D.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bsmall%5DBoring band%2C boring output%2C beloved of supply teachers who want the kids to think they%27re cool. Teen Spirit is a deodorant and the riff is%2C in my opinion%2C desperately in need of it. Yeah%2C chalk me up as a member of group 4.%5B%2Fsmall%5D
6|4|5|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|Gryphon||18:52:23|10/12/2014|%3EYeah%2C chalk me up as a member of group 4.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DThere%27s%5B%2Fi%5D a deep and reverberating shock.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D
11|5|6|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|The Traitor||08:24:32|10/13/2014|%3E%3EYeah%2C chalk me up as a member of group 4.%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5DThere%27s%5B%2Fi%5D a deep and reverberating shock. %0D%0A%0D%0AIs it like the one I feel when a post-apocalyptic lumberjack moaning through his nose about how shit everything is is held up constantly as a master of his craft%2C usually by people who tell me so while dismissing anyone and everyone who became after he died as a phoney%2C flash-in-the-pan%2C manufactured hack%3F Why yes%2C I think it just might be%21%0D%0A%0D%0AFor the sake of clarity%3A I%27m not suggesting you%27ve done that%2C at least not within earshot of me. I%27m suggesting that this is my common experience with musos of a certain age.%0D%0A%0D%0A---%0D%0A%22She%27s old%2C she%27s lame%2C she%27s barren too%2C %2F%2F %22She%27s not worth feed or hay%2C %2F%2F %22But I%27ll give her this%2C%22 - he blew smoke at me - %2F%2F %22She was something in her day.%22 -- Garnet Rogers%2C %5Bi%5DSmall Victory%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AFiMFiction.net%3A we might accept blatant porn involving the cast of My Little Pony but as God is my witness we have %5Bi%5Dstandards%5B%2Fi%5D.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bsmall%5DNirvana%27s existence is also directly to blame for that of Nickelback. Prosecution rests%2C m%27lud.%5B%2Fsmall%5D
19|6|11|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|Gryphon||19:40:07|10/13/2014|%3EFor the sake of clarity%3A I%27m not suggesting you%27ve done that%2C at least %0D%0A%3Enot within earshot of me. I%27m suggesting that this is my common %0D%0A%3Eexperience with musos of a certain age. %0D%0A%0D%0AI submit to you that that experience is the fault of the people at whose hands you have had it%2C not the band.  That%27s like blaming the manufacturer of a frying pan you got hit with instead of the person who hit you with it.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D
7|3|4|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|Mercutio||23:40:28|10/12/2014|%0D%0A%3E... in aping %28perhaps inadvertently%29 that dismissive %0D%0A%3Etoo-cool-for-school thing the band%27s anti-fans did at the time%2C you %0D%0A%3Eare plugging yourself into another part of the same cultural %0D%0A%3Ephenomenon. %0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s possible. The band that my specific age cohort had that had high profile %22this is the music we hate to prove we%27re cool%22 anti-fans was Green Day. I don%27t suppose the dynamic there was much different than with Nirvana.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3ENirvana was one of those bands that have basically four listener %0D%0A%3Edemographics%3A rabid fans%2C people who think they had their moments%2C %0D%0A%3Epeople who aren%27t aware of them%2C and rabid anti-fans.  A lot of bands %0D%0A%3Eonly make it to the middle two%2C and a vanishingly rare view end up %0D%0A%3Ewith the top three and not the bottom one%2C but most of your really %0D%0A%3Einfluential acts will wind up with all four%2C in varying proportions. %0D%0A%0D%0AYou know%2C I%27d never really thought about it that way. You are of course right%3B and in fact I%27m having trouble thinking of bands that hit only the first three. The Beatles%2C I guess%3F If only because it is hard to find someone who will admit to hating The Beatles even if they do%2C because they don%27t want to be publicly seen holding an opinion just that outside the mainstream. And maybe The Beatles don%27t even count%2C because I don%27t think you can find anyone in the English-speaking world who is %5Bi%5Dunaware%5B%2Fi%5D of them. %0D%0A%0D%0A%3ENone of which affects my opinion that %22Smells Like Teen Spirit%22 has a %0D%0A%3Erockin%27 good hook%2C which%2C as you may recall was all my original post %0D%0A%3Ewas about. %3A%29 %0D%0A%0D%0AIt absolutely does. That always both pleases and frustrates me. I love it when a piece of music doesn%27t actually need lyrics of content to stand on its own two feet%2C merely accompanying vocals that hit the right cadences to accompany it.%0D%0A%0D%0ABy the same token%2C tho%2C listen to the goddamn lyrics%2C people. They%27re important%21 Words are important%21 Don%27t play %5Bi%5DBorn in the USA%5B%2Fi%5D as some sort of hyper-patriotic anthem celebrating capitalism and American exceptionalism%21%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%22Hey%2C man.  You hear about Kurt Cobain%3F%22 %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3E%22Uh%2C yeah%2C%22 I said%2C slightly distracted by the doings on my end.  %0D%0A%3E%22Tragic%2C huh%3F%22 %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3E%22Yeah.%22  Pause%2C and then%2C in exactly the same matter-of-fact tone of %0D%0A%3Evoice%3A %22It was the CIA%2C man.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0ATangent time%21%0D%0A%0D%0AI have%2C no fooling%2C gotten to the point where if someone says the CIA is up to something%2C I will at least consider the notion%2C no matter how deep into the world of tin-foil couture it seems to be. This is just because the actual-life shit the CIA has gotten up to is often just that messed up.%0D%0A%0D%0AI bring this up because Jeremy Renner%27s latest joint%2C %5Bi%5DKill the Messenger%5B%2Fi%5D%2C hit this weekend. It%27s good. Real good. Aside from Renner just generally being a good actor %28he even makes that godwaful mustache he grew for the sake of verisimilitude work%29 it%27s a pretty harrowing account of how the CIA actually %5Bi%5Ddestroyed a man%5B%2Fi%5D for revealing one of their more evil schemes%2C and the cherry on top of that shit sundae was that very few people actually believed him at the time. %0D%0A%0D%0AI wouldn%27t quite say that Renner %5Bi%5Dinhabits%5B%2Fi%5D the role of Gary Webb%2C but he very clearly was deeply invested in the subject matter. Like when Ben Affleck makes a movie about Boston. Sort of %5Bi%5DSix Days of the Condor%5B%2Fi%5D has a kid with %5Bi%5DAll the President%27s Men%5B%2Fi%5D%2C only without%2C you know%2C a happy ending.%0D%0A%0D%0ABonus points%3A Renner continues the trend of every character he plays being completely applicable to a %5Bi%5Dsingle guy%5B%2Fi%5D in UF without even a whole lot of hand-waving being needed.%0D%0A%0D%0A-Merc%0D%0AKeep Rat
8|4|7|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|Peter Eng||01:40:41|10/13/2014|%3EAnd maybe The Beatles don%27t even %0D%0A%3Ecount%2C because I don%27t think you can find anyone in the %0D%0A%3EEnglish-speaking world who is %5Bi%5Dunaware%5B%2Fi%5D of them. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%0D%0AA few awards shows back%2C Paul McCartney was on for a bit.  Twitter was full of %22Who is that guy singing on stage%3F%22 commentary.  Maybe they are aware of The Beatles%2C but I wouldn%27t bet on it.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EBy the same token%2C tho%2C listen to the goddamn lyrics%2C people. They%27re %0D%0A%3Eimportant%21 Words are important%21 Don%27t play %5Bi%5DBorn in the USA%5B%2Fi%5D as %0D%0A%3Esome sort of hyper-patriotic anthem celebrating capitalism and %0D%0A%3EAmerican exceptionalism%21 %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%0D%0ASee also%2C %22From A Distance%22 %28co-opted into a pro-war song%29 and %22Every Breath You Take%22 %28not a love song%2C no matter what people think%29.%0D%0A%0D%0APeter Eng%0D%0A--%0D%0A%22They don%27t know who Paul McCartney is%3F  That%27s terrible%21  I mean%2C everybody should have heard of Wings%2C right%3F%22 - me%2C tongue firmly in cheek.
9|5|8|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|Gryphon||01:59:25|10/13/2014|%3E%3EBy the same token%2C tho%2C listen to the goddamn lyrics%2C people. They%27re %0D%0A%3E%3Eimportant%21 Words are important%21 Don%27t play %5Bi%5DBorn in the USA%5B%2Fi%5D as %0D%0A%3E%3Esome sort of hyper-patriotic anthem celebrating capitalism and %0D%0A%3E%3EAmerican exceptionalism%21 %0D%0A%0D%0AI think it was the late Frank Zappa who observed that one of the great experiences in rock %27n roll was listening to the full-length version of a track you thought was a sweet love song based on the radio edit%2C and discovering that %22it%27s really about a pair of leather queens cornholing.%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%3ESee also%2C %22From A Distance%22 %28co-opted into a pro-war song%29%0D%0A%0D%0ANot to be confused with Kate Bush%27s %5Blink%3Awww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DNTUcoR8_pyE%7C%22Experiment IV%22%5D%2C the song with perhaps the creepiest video ever made.  %28Don%27t say you weren%27t warned.%29%0D%0A%0D%0AWe were working secretly for the military%0D%0AOur experiment in sound is nearly ready to begin%0D%0AWe only know in theory what we are doing%0D%0AMusic made for pleasure%2C music made to thrill%0D%0A%0D%0AThey told us all they wanted%0D%0AWas a sound that could kill someone from a distance...%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D
10|6|9|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|Mercutio||02:41:37|10/13/2014|... good lord. It%27s like they let Terry Gilliam make a music video. That%27s brilliant. I%27m not going to say that it%27s the best music video I%27ve ever seen%2C but certainly top five.%0D%0A%0D%0AThat is definitely a strong contender for creepiest video ever made%2C tho. Well%2C in the subgenre of %22genuine creepy horror.%22 There are other genres of creepy%2C and %22the people making this are grotesquely misogynist%22 creepy has... way too many music videos in contention to count%2C really.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut man%2C that is a good video. It actually elevates the song%21 Do you know how many videos manage to do that%3F Very%2C very few. Thanks for the link%2C Ben.%0D%0A%0D%0A-Merc%0D%0AKeep Rat
15|6|9|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|Astynax||19:07:18|10/13/2014|%3ENot to be confused with Kate Bush%27s %0D%0A%3E%5Blink%3Awww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DNTUcoR8_pyE%7C%22Experiment IV%22%5D%2C the song %0D%0A%3Ewith perhaps the creepiest video ever made.  %28Don%27t say you weren%27t %0D%0A%3Ewarned.%29 %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%0D%0AI think the Internet has made me too jaded. That didn%27t have near the creepy factor I expected. Entertaining though. Not every military experiment gone wrong summons evil beings %28a banshee perhaps%3F%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Btable border%3D%220%22 cellspacing%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%220%22%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%222%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv375%2Ferulogos%2Fv2%2FXSIG.jpg%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btd%5D%5BFONT SIZE%3D%222%22 COLOR%3D%22%23000000%22%5D%5Bb%5D-%3D%7B%28Astynax%29%7D%3D-%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%5Bi%5D%22Bonus points for a pre-House Hugh Laurie as %27unfortunate scientist number 5%27%22%5B%2Fi%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%222%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D%5B%2Fp%5D
24|6|9|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|McFortner||21:11:26|10/13/2014|How did I miss that video all those years ago%3F  In 1986 I was in college for the first time and I was watching videos at that time%2C so it must have been considered %22too shocking%22 to be broadcast on the over-the-air video shows.  Pity%2C because the song and the video are pretty good.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22black%22%5DMichael C. Fortner%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22green%22 size%3D-1%5D%22Maxim 37%3A There is no such thing as %22overkill%22.%0D%0AThere is only %22open fire%22 and %22I need to reload%22.%5B%2Ffont%5D
13|5|8|||||RE%3A y%27know...|Zemyla||14:19:09|10/13/2014|%3ESee also%2C %22From A Distance%22 %28co-opted into a pro-war song%29 and %22Every %0D%0A%3EBreath You Take%22 %28not a love song%2C no matter what people think%29. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe absolute champion of that is GE using %5Ba href%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dq6ueDHn2HTk%22%5DSixteen Tons%5B%2Fa%5D in a commercial about clean coal. Seriously.
14|4|7|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|Nova Floresca||18:16:58|10/13/2014|%3EYou know%2C I%27d never really thought about it that way. You are of %0D%0A%3Ecourse right%3B and in fact I%27m having trouble thinking of bands that %0D%0A%3Ehit only the first three. The Beatles%2C I guess%3F If only because it is %0D%0A%3Ehard to find someone who will admit to hating The Beatles even if they %0D%0A%3Edo%0D%0A%0D%0AEr%2C uh%2C hi %2Araises hand%2A. Although technically I suppose I more hate the boomers who proselytize the Beatles. Okay%2C fair enough%2C they changed your world. They%27ll never be more than %22eh%2C it%27s better than commercials%22 music to me%2C because they were all dead %28or oxidized until moot%29 by the time I was old enough to listen to music and care.%0D%0A%0D%0AAlso%2C secondary question%3A is Nickelback really any worse than%2C say%2C Motley Crue%3F Not attempting to defend them%2C by any means%2C just wondering what singled out this one group to be made into failures of myth and legend%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This is probably a stupid question%2C but . . .%22
16|5|14|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|Gryphon||19:11:11|10/13/2014|%3EThey%27ll never be more than %22eh%2C it%27s better than %0D%0A%3Ecommercials%22 music to me%2C because they were all dead %28or oxidized %0D%0A%3Euntil moot%29 by the time I was old enough to listen to music and care. %0D%0A%0D%0AI%27d just like to point out that%2C in an age of recording technologies and the rampant atemporality they bring with them%2C this is a damned silly thing to say.  In fact%2C on some level it%27s %5Bi%5Dbeen%5B%2Fi%5D a damned silly thing to say since roughly the invention of writing.  Go through your library and remove everything that a person who is now dead was involved in the production of.  Go on%2C I%27ll wait.  How many books have you got left%3F  Yeah%2C I thought so.  Now get rid of all the music you have that was made by living people %28since we already know you don%27t do music by dead people %3A%29%2C but contains musical influences from people who are dead.  Also%2C be sure not to look at any architecture or use any technology that might be derived in whole on in part from the work of people who have since died.%0D%0A%0D%0ASee%3F  Didn%27t take long for the premise to become absurd%2C did it%3F %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EAlso%2C secondary question%3A is Nickelback really any worse than%2C say%2C %0D%0A%3EMotley Crue%3F Not attempting to defend them%2C by any means%2C just %0D%0A%3Ewondering what singled out this one group to be made into failures of %0D%0A%3Emyth and legend%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AThat%2C I can%27t help you with.  I%27m not sure I%27ve ever heard them.  It might just be that too-cool-for-school thing again.  Like the guy I knew in College Mk I who used to throw out the albums of bands he Used To Like when they got real record deals%2C i.e.%2C Sold Out and Began Retroactively to Have Always Sucked.%0D%0A%0D%0AOr maybe they just suck as bad as people say%21  It%27s entirely possible.  Lots of bands suck and it hasn%27t stopped all of them from achieving commercial success.  %5Blink%3Aen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FChris_Sievey%23Frank_Sidebottom%7CIn some cases%2C sucking was the point all along%21%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AAlso%2C I must insist that the name of the other band you reference is %22M%26ouml%3Btley Cr%26uuml%3Be%22.  If you%27re going to dis one of the best-selling hair-metal acts of the %2780s%2C you might as well at least spell their name correctly wrong. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A%5Bfont size%3D%221%22%5D%22%5Bi%5DCreed sucks%21%5B%2Fi%5D  I hate you%21  %5Bi%5DAnd I hate the bands you like%21%5B%2Fi%5D%22%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D
17|6|16|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|Nova Floresca||19:32:46|10/13/2014|%3E%3EThey%27ll never be more than %22eh%2C it%27s better than %0D%0A%3E%3Ecommercials%22 music to me%2C because they were all dead %28or oxidized %0D%0A%3E%3Euntil moot%29 by the time I was old enough to listen to music and care. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EI%27d just like to point out that%2C in an age of recording technologies %0D%0A%3Eand the rampant atemporality they bring with them%2C this is a damned %0D%0A%3Esilly thing to say.%0D%0A%0D%0AGonna try this again%2C because I wasn%27t able to articulate it the first time%2C and I was hoping it would come through via context from the thread itself. The power of a music act is derived in part from connection and relevance%3B the best recording in the world can%27t replicate the intensity of feeling generated from being present at a live show%2C and in my experience%2C a lot of people who are very zealous about a band are really hooked on that live-show feeling. In the same vein%2C many acts use their music as a platform to speak out about contemporary issues%2C and again%2C those messages just don%27t resonate as strongly to someone who didn%27t directly experience those issues and%2For isn%27t keyed in to the lingo used. Incidentally%2C this is why most critical readings of the %22great texts%22 start with a thorough study of history %28and sometimes learning a new language or two%29.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EAlso%2C I must insist that the name of the other band you reference is %0D%0A%3E%22M%C3%B6tley Cr%C3%BCe%22.  If you%27re going to dis one of the %0D%0A%3Ebest-selling hair-metal acts of the %2780s%2C you might as well at least %0D%0A%3Espell their name correctly wrong. %3A%29 %0D%0A%0D%0AIs there an easier method of generating an umlaut than the %221%29 Open a word processor. 2%29 Go to %27special characters%27 and select the appropriate vowel. 3%29 Copy and paste the vowel into the text field. 4%29 Hope the forum software in question didn%27t decide to do anything else goofy because of the external text source.%22 method I%27m currently using%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This is probably a stupid question%2C but . . .%22
20|7|17|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|Gryphon||19:44:16|10/13/2014|%3EIs there an easier method of generating an umlaut than the %221%29 Open a %0D%0A%3Eword processor. 2%29 Go to %27special characters%27 and select the %0D%0A%3Eappropriate vowel. 3%29 Copy and paste the vowel into the text field. 4%29 %0D%0A%3EHope the forum software in question didn%27t decide to do anything else %0D%0A%3Egoofy because of the external text source.%22 method I%27m currently %0D%0A%3Eusing%3F %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Blink%3Agoodtools.net%2Fpages%2FHowCharactersMap.html%7CThere sure is%21%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%28Note that a lot of the most common diacriticals have intuitive amper entities in addition to the purely numerical ones - %28amper%29ouml%28semi%29 and so on.  I%27ve only memorized the numbers for a couple of the non-intuitive ones I use most often%2C most notably %26%23299%3B and %26%23333%3B %28299 and 333 respectively%29%2C so I refer to that document quite often.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D
21|8|20|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|Nova Floresca||19:49:44|10/13/2014|Aha%21 Thank you%2C that%27s most helpful.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This is probably a stupid question%2C but . . .%22
18|2|1|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|VoidRandom||19:33:45|10/13/2014|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Oct-13-14 AT 07:58 PM (EDT)]%3EIs it wrong that I%27m really glad I%27m too young for Nirvana to have %0D%0A%3Ebeen at all relevant to me%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AYes.%0D%0AWell%2C not so much wrong%2C but it shows an underdeveloped sense of history.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EI mean%2C they were fine music-makers and all. But Christ on a bike%2C %0D%0A%3EGen-X%27ers talk about Cobain like he single-handedly saved music as we %0D%0A%3Eknow it. And it%27s like %22is this a cultural thing%3F Would I be part of %0D%0A%3Eyour weird cult too if I%27d been born in the seventies%2C talking about %0D%0A%3Ethe pilgrimage I made to Kurt%27s grave in %2797 and still muttering %0D%0A%3Eangrily about Soundgarden%27s breakup%3F%22 %0D%0A%0D%0ATL%3BDR - Yes%2C it%27s cultural%2Fgenerational%2C at least for the musically inclined.%0D%0A%0D%0AI would argue that what you are seeing is residue of the fall of Rock n%27 Roll from the primary mainstream popular form to a secondary one%2C replaced by Rap%2C Hip-Hop and their descendants. Similar to%2C if less extreme than%2C what happened to Jazz and Swing. Grunge was one of the last gasps of primary Rock popularity%2C so it and its representative bands stand out in their memories. It was particularly hard for many Gen-Xers as there was no time in their experience when one Rock form or another wasn%27t primary so they had no memory of previous transitions to help them accept it.%0D%0A%0D%0AYou see similar stuff in different cohorts%3A boomers arguing Beatles%2FStones%2C their parents arguing Bop vs. Swing%2C Rap fans and East Coast%2FWest Coast%2C mourning for Buddy Holly%2C etc.%0D%0A%0D%0A-VR %0D%0A%5Bfont size%3D%222%22%5D%22If you think that you are too old to Rock %27n Roll%2C then you are.%22 - Lemmy Kilmister%5B%2Ffont%5D %0D%0A%22They copied all they could follow%2C but they couldn%27t copy my mind%2C %0D%0AAnd I left %27em sweating and stealing a year and a half behind.%22%0D%0A%0D%0Aedit%3A typo patrol
22|3|18|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|Gryphon||19:52:43|10/13/2014|%3EYou see similar stuff in different cohorts%3A boomers arguing %0D%0A%3EBeatles%2FStones%0D%0A%0D%0AWhich is pretty funny to those of us%2C in and after that generation%2C who recognize that the Who in its prime was a greater band than either. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Emourning for Buddy Holly%0D%0A%0D%0AThere%27s a reference to this in my father%27s favorite movie%2C %5Bi%5DAmerican Graffiti%5B%2Fi%5D%2C which is set in the summer of 1962%3A when John Milner%27s passenger turns on the radio in his car and the Beach Boys are playing%2C he turns it back off and says%2C %22I can%27t stand that surf shit.  Rock and roll%27s been goin%27 downhill ever since Buddy Holly died.%22%0D%0A %0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D
23|4|22|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|VoidRandom||21:05:05|10/13/2014|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Oct-13-14 AT 09:09 PM (EDT)]%3E%3EYou see similar stuff in different cohorts%3A boomers arguing %0D%0A%3E%3EBeatles%2FStones%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EWhich is pretty funny to those of us%2C in and after that generation%2C %0D%0A%3Ewho recognize that the Who in its prime was a greater band than %0D%0A%3Eeither. %3A%29 %0D%0A%0D%0AI would argue all three of the bands %28in their prime%29 regularly passed the Donald Dunn Test of Band Quality%2C possibly varying in quantities transformed. %3C1%3E%0D%0AThe problem with listening to The Beatles now is that they%27ve been overplayed to the point of elevator music and almost no one has the musical context to really appreciate just what they did. It%27s a bit like the high school kids who complain about all the clich%C3%A9s in Shakespeare.%0D%0ASimilar deal with Elvis and a host of other acts.%0D%0A%0D%0AI was massively overexposed to Beatles music while in elementary school %28f%27ing young boomer teachers%29 and I didn%27t listen to them for decades after. It was only in the late 90s when a friends who is very music knowledgable with a wide breadth started educating my ears and got over my resistance.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%22I can%27t stand that surf shit. %0D%0A%3E Rock and roll%27s been goin%27 downhill ever since Buddy Holly died.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AMy aforementioned friend has a long involved argument that rock%27n%27roll would probably have developed in different directions if Buddy Holly and Ritchie Valens had lived. I think he%27s projecting the future into the past some%2C but there is no denying the influence Holly had%2C even with only one and a half years of successful career. And he was smart and ambitious and loved music  and knew what sin was.%3C2%3E I can%27t see him having no influence%2C particularly as he aged into writer and producer roles%3C3%3E...he%27d be 78 if he was still alive today....just reaching the end of his career.%0D%0A%0D%0A-VR %0D%0A%5Bfont size%3D%222%22%5D%3C1%3E Goat Piss. Gasoline. You know the rest.%0D%0A%3C2%3E %5Blink%3Awww.virtualubbock.com%2FstoMollyIvins.html %7C %22But Lubbock will by-God let you know what sin is. So you can go out and do it%2C and enjoy it.%22%5D%0D%0A%3C3%3E %22I have a sound in my head%2C and so far it%E2%80%99s not like anything we%E2%80%99ve done here.%22 %E2%80%94 The Buddy Holly Story%5B%2Ffont%5D %0D%0A%22They copied all they could follow%2C but they couldn%27t copy my mind%2C %0D%0AAnd I left %27em sweating and stealing a year and a half behind.%22
25|3|18|||||RE%3A y%27know...|Croaker||00:04:48|10/14/2014|Meh.%0D%0A%0D%0AConfession is good for the soul%2C they say.%0D%0A%0D%0AI am%2C shall we say%2C rather %2Flate%2F coming to the rock scene at all.%0D%0A%0D%0AI am - you may turn away in shock and hide your eyes%2C now - a Folkie.%0D%0A%0D%0AI grew up on Gordon Bok%2C Pete Seeger%2C Tommy Makem%2C Peter Paul %26 Mary%2C Ian %26 Sylvia%2C and their ilk. My closest exposure to rock was Simon %26 Garfunkel. Which%2C well.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn college%2C I got into Filk - Heather Alexander%2C Leslie Fish%2C Mercedes Lackey%2C et al. Printed up the Black Book of Ioseph of Locksley. Anyone who%27s been a SCAdian knows what of I speak.%0D%0A%0D%0AI also got into Celtica - Enya%2C Clannad%2C Loreena McKennit%2C etc. And some stuff that is technically classified as %27Folk Rock%27 - Fairport Convention%2C Steeleye Span%2C and so forth.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd I got introduced to the first metal band that made me give a damn%2C which was Warlock. It took 80%27s East German Death Metal to get me over the old %22rock is just noise%22 phase%2C folks. %0D%0A%0D%0AEven today%2C I only collect a tiny handful of bands. Iced Earth%2C Dragonforce%2C that%27s ... pretty much it%2C right now. I%27ll listen to other bands if they%27re on the radio%2C or if someone else is playing it. %0D%0A%0D%0ABut it just doesn%27t drive me the way it does some people. 
26|4|25|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|Verbena||04:07:32|10/14/2014|Actually%2C this sounds precisely like my sister%27s taste in music. If that pattern holds%2C you may be interested in European symphonic metal--Nightwish%2C Within Temptation%2C Kamelot%2C bands like those. %28Actually%2C I%27ll be going to see Kamelot and Dragonforce co-headlining next April.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A--------%0D%0A%0D%0Athis world created by the %0D%0Ahands of the gods%0D%0Aeverything is false%0D%0Aeverything is a LIE%0D%0Athe final days have come%0D%0Anow%0D%0Alet everything be destroyed%0D%0A%0D%0A--mu
28|5|26|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|BobSchroeck||08:47:45|10/14/2014|%3EActually%2C this sounds precisely like my sister%27s taste in music. If %0D%0A%3Ethat pattern holds%2C you may be interested in European symphonic %0D%0A%3Emetal--Nightwish%2C Within Temptation%2C Kamelot%2C bands like those. %0D%0A%3E%28Actually%2C I%27ll be going to see Kamelot and Dragonforce co-headlining %0D%0A%3Enext April.%29 %0D%0A%0D%0ASeconding this -- sounds like one of the branches in my particular musical preference tree almost exactly.%0D%0A%0D%0ALook also into Tempest%2C if you haven%27t already stumbled over them via the Leslie Fish-Heather Alexander%2A-Mercedes Lackey connection.%0D%0A%0D%0A-- Bob%0D%0A%2A Hand over heart for the former Heather%27s now-lost voice.  One must do what is right and true for oneself%2C but Heather%27s gender reassignment stole that voice from us and replaced it with one not quite so wonderful%3B for that reason alone I allow myself to occasionally wish she had not undergone reassignment.%0D%0A-------------------%0D%0AMy race is pacifist and does not believe in war.  We kill only out of personal spite.
29|6|28|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|Terminus Est||11:55:58|10/14/2014|You might also want to consider Blackmore%27s Night.  They%27ve got some good stuff in the folk-rock band.
30|7|29|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|Verbena||12:22:50|10/14/2014|My sister got our dad %28who%27s taste runs from John Denver to Loreena McKennitt and not much farther%29 into Blackmore%27s Night. %3D%29 A little soft for my taste%2C I admit.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EYou might also want to consider Blackmore%27s Night.  They%27ve got some %0D%0A%3Egood stuff in the folk-rock band. %0D%0A%0D%0A--------%0D%0A%0D%0Athis world created by the %0D%0Ahands of the gods%0D%0Aeverything is false%0D%0Aeverything is a LIE%0D%0Athe final days have come%0D%0Anow%0D%0Alet everything be destroyed%0D%0A%0D%0A--mu
31|7|29|||||RE%3A y%27know...|Croaker||15:48:56|10/14/2014|%3EYou might also want to consider Blackmore%27s Night.  They%27ve got some %0D%0A%3Egood stuff in the folk-rock band. %0D%0A%0D%0ACan%27t believe I forgot to mention them%2C yeah.%0D%0A%0D%0AI got into their stuff a few months ago. They have a few full albums and even concerts up on youtube%2C it%27s on my %22play while goofing around the house%22 setlist.
27|4|25|||1||RE%3A y%27know...|Peter Eng||04:18:07|10/14/2014|%3E%0D%0A%3EIn college%2C I got into Filk - Heather Alexander%2C Leslie Fish%2C Mercedes %0D%0A%3ELackey%2C et al. Printed up the Black Book of Ioseph of Locksley. Anyone %0D%0A%3Ewho%27s been a SCAdian knows what of I speak. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%0D%0AIsn%27t that Joe Bethancourt%3F  %2Asigh%2A%0D%0A%0D%0AHe%27s one of the reasons I respect good banjo players.%0D%0A%0D%0APeter Eng%0D%0A--%0D%0AAnd now%2C he%27s only recordings and memories.