37||0|4351|0|yes 0|0|0|||1||Wait... what%3F|Apostate_Soul||21:37:52|06/01/2006|I%27ve been re-reading the Symphony%2C and something suddenly struck me. And I quote...%0D%0A%0D%0A%22...Corwin had carefully maneuvered his opponent%0D%0Aonto Kenmore Boulevard%2C a broad%2C flat street which%2C from here%2C ran as%0D%0Astraight as an arrow to the shore of Lake Daniels. There was nothing%0D%0Abetween Big O%27s helmet and the horizon...%22%0D%0A%0D%0A...there%27s a Horizon inside a Dyson Sphere%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AJust a little nitpicking%2C I suppose but it had me scratching my head for a bit.%0D%0A%0D%0A____________________%0D%0A%0D%0A%22It%27s difficult keeping up with the cross-continuity%2C but I think Cosmouse just gave The Saturnian Scraphunter his Ultimate Pacifier to use against Galactapuss...%22 1|1|0|||1||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|Gryphon||22:09:30|06/01/2006|%3E...there%27s a Horizon inside a Dyson Sphere%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AThere is on the Avalon pseudocontinent.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A 2|1|0|||||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|eriktown||02:37:20|06/02/2006|%0D%0A%3E...there%27s a Horizon inside a Dyson Sphere%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s a kind of magic.%0D%0A%0D%0ASeriously%2C we%27ve been over this one a hundred times. 3|1|0|||||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|simonz||10:08:58|06/03/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-06 AT 10:13 AM (EDT)]-edited because it%27s too early for me to remember the difference between the formulas for area and circumference-%0D%0ATo put it in perspective%2C if the Sphere is 1AU %28can%27t remember exactly if it is or not%29 away from Zeta Cygni%2C then it%27s circumference is roughly 300 million km. Comparatively%2C the earth%27s diameter is 12%2C756.3 km. The curvature would be so gradual that on the inside of the sphere you probably wouldn%27t be able to see far enough to see where it starts curving up anyways%2C especially at night%2C not to mention all the magic that Cianbro worked there. 4|2|3|||||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|Seeker||16:14:22|06/03/2006|Add to that the fact that Avalon is a _pseudo_continent. I seem to remember comments in-story about how the terrain out in the Badlands slowly slopes down until it meets the surface of the sphere itself.%0D%0A%0D%0AIf that structure averages out to be dome-shaped%2C then there is an actual horizon. Beyond that%2C you%27ll eventually reach sphere surface%2C but that%27s going to take a real%2C real%2C _real_ long time. 5|3|4|||||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|Croaker||17:00:15|06/05/2006|%3EAdd to that the fact that Avalon is a _pseudo_continent. I seem to %0D%0A%3Eremember comments in-story about how the terrain out in the Badlands %0D%0A%3Eslowly slopes down until it meets the surface of the sphere itself. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EIf that structure averages out to be dome-shaped%2C then there is an %0D%0A%3Eactual horizon. Beyond that%2C you%27ll eventually reach sphere surface%2C %0D%0A%3Ebut that%27s going to take a real%2C real%2C _real_ long time. %0D%0A%0D%0AYep.%0D%0A%0D%0ATake a sphere approximately one AU in diameter.%0D%0A%0D%0AOn the inside of that%2C a hemispherical dome roughly 12%2C000 kilometers across%2C say%2C just wouldn%27t even be much of a pimple. Plenty of space to drop a pseudo-content%2C a few oceans%2C and such%2C and have it have a nice horizon. 6|4|5|||1||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|Sofaspud||17:43:27|06/05/2006|I seem to recall a quote about Corwin %28I think%3F%29 %22manuevering around the pylon%22 into city airspace.%0D%0A%0D%0AI don%27t know if there%27s ever been a canonical%2C %22This Is How It Is%2C Folks%22 post%2C but to me%2C that fragment%2C coupled with other hints%2C kinda makes me think of New Avalon as being a platter suspended from a pole%2C and the %27magic%27 that Cianbro wrought would be the manner in which they made the sun appear to be above instead of completely out of sight.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis would explain the shipyard complex appearing to be the night sky%2C as well as the horizon issue.%0D%0A%0D%0AOf course%2C I could be completely off base here. There%27s more than enough room in the sphere to have them living on the inner surface of the shell and the shipyard complex to be between them and Zeta Cygni.%0D%0A%0D%0AOr a bunch of other possibilities. But I like the idea of a pylon supporting a psuedocontinent%2C if for no other reason than it%27d make sense from a logistical standpoint. Cargo could dock outside and be transported by elevator through the pylon.%0D%0A%0D%0AHmm... I%27m remembering frieght being mentioned in-story%2C though%2C as landing in the city proper...%0D%0A%0D%0A--sofaspud%0D%0A-- 8|4|5|||||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|BLUE||20:16:46|06/05/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-06 AT 05:10 PM (EDT)]%3ETake a sphere approximately one AU in diameter. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EOn the inside of that%2C a hemispherical dome roughly 12%2C000 kilometers %0D%0A%3Eacross%2C say%2C just wouldn%27t even be much of a pimple. Plenty of space %0D%0A%3Eto drop a pseudo-content%2C a few oceans%2C and such%2C and have it have a %0D%0A%3Enice horizon. %0D%0A%0D%0AI doubt that they would engineer it to be a half-dome%3B too much wasted space on the inside %28not that a dyson sphere isn%27t a massively huge waste of space%2C at least for the first several millenia%2C until expansion really sets in...%29%2C and it would make it rather difficult to %22expand%22 and connect to the next pseudo-continent that would eventually be constructed without a lot of divirting through the surface of the sphere itself.%0D%0A%0D%0AI have thought of the pseudo-continent as rather flat%2C kind of like nebraska or the southwest%2C but on a grand scale. The actual inside circumference at 1AU would be 584 million miles%2C btw. Using some rough trig%2C if the %28for purposes of the math%2C perfectly circular%29 pseudo-continent had a diameter of 12%2C000 km and was perfectly flat edge to edge %28discounting mountains and such%2C just mean thickness%29 it would be about .54 km thick in the center. Bump that up to 2 km or so and give it a nice%2C gradual curve towards the inner surface of the sphere and you have a horizon%2C no problems%2C although one much flatter and more like the great plains that what someone from new england or the south would think of as a horizon. And it would be fairly easy for that scale of engineering to bring the next pseudocontinent up to it and create an ocean in between to get rid of the low spots when it is time to expand%2C and with the distances involved the transition should still look %27normal%27 to someone from a planet.%0D%0A%0D%0A%7BOn a tangent using these numbers %28113 million square kilometeres%2C btw%29%2C and assuming that there is as much land proportionally on the pseudo-continent as there is on earth%2C it can probably support a half-billion to a billion sentients easily. %28New Avalon is quoted as having a population of 20 million%2C most living quite comfortably%29. Probably a lot more%2C but that gets into environmental arguments%2C so lets use a billion. Easy to work with. As 1 degree of radius inside the sphere is something approaching three and a third trillion square miles or almost 9 trillion square kilometers %28VERY rough math%2C don%27t shoot me for the fudge factors%2C please%29%2C that small section of the sphere could support almost 7.9 million times that population%2C or 7.9 million billion. 7.9 quadrillion%3F Even if I muffed the numbers somewhat%2C 6 to 7 quadrillion would still probably be reasonable. That%27s in a 1 degree by 1 degree section of the the Zeta Cygni sphere. Just something I was thinking of while cruching numbers.%7D%0D%0A%0D%0AEDIT%3A got some of my labels crossed%2C all the math is done in miles%2C not km like I originally had%2C so had to redo a couple of numbers. Allows for even more people%2C actually. And it%27s double-checked this time.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd hell yes%2C it%27s granular detail%2C but I was almost a US Navy Nuke operator. We overthink things%2C its an occupational %28and personal%29 trait. 9|5|8|||||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|MoonEyes||05:19:58|06/06/2006|I suspect that you%27re reaching the %27You%27re examening this too closely%27 point. And at a high rate of speed%2C too. 16|6|9|||||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|BLUE||17:12:54|06/06/2006|Probably approaching at superluminal speeds...but it took me about half an hour to figure it out%2C so it%27s not like it was a huge investment in time. 10|5|8|||1||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|Sofaspud||13:03:21|06/06/2006|Oh duh. I forgot about the scale of this thing %28again%29.%0D%0A%0D%0AHeck%2C why bother with attaching the psuedocontinent to the sphere at all%3F There%27s enough space inside the sphere to let the continent orbit freely%2C with miniscule corrections as necessary. If set up correctly%2C it may even be inherently stable %28like the Lagrange points%29.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe only issue I have is gravity. I dunno how much trust I would place in artificial gravity generators%2C and without knowing a bit more about the material used to construct the shell %28and presumably%2C the %27bedrock%27 of the continent%29%2C I can%27t do the math to figure out how much of that is needed to produce a Earth-like gravitational field.%0D%0A%0D%0AHeh. Theoretical engineering is fun.%0D%0A%0D%0A--sofaspud%0D%0A-- 11|6|10|||||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|dstar||14:08:05|06/06/2006|%0D%0A%3EThe only issue I have is gravity. I dunno how much trust I would %0D%0A%3Eplace in artificial gravity generators%2C and without knowing a bit more %0D%0A%3Eabout the material used to construct the shell %28and presumably%2C the %0D%0A%3E%27bedrock%27 of the continent%29%2C I can%27t do the math to figure out how %0D%0A%3Emuch of that is needed to produce a Earth-like gravitational field. %0D%0A%0D%0AIf it%27s on the inside of the sphere%3F An infinite amount. Mass _above_ you on a sphere doesn%27t contribute either way to the gravitational pull -- only mass below you does. 12|7|11|||1||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|Sofaspud||14:55:08|06/06/2006|%3EIf it%27s on the inside of the sphere%3F An infinite amount. Mass _above_ %0D%0A%3Eyou on a sphere doesn%27t contribute either way to the gravitational %0D%0A%3Epull -- only mass below you does. %0D%0A%0D%0AYour statement confuses me. Mass is mass - it exerts gravitational influence regardless of its relative position to you. Distance is the only factor.%0D%0A%0D%0AHmm... I think maybe you missed what I was saying. Picture the sphere. Now%2C inside it%2C place a psuedocontinent %28PC%29%2C happily orbiting the star that lives at the center of the sphere %28put it a safe distance away from the inner surface of the sphere%2C of course %3A%29. People live on the PC%2C with their feet pointing at the star %28on the other side of the PC%29%2C and their heads at the inner surface of the sphere. Cianbro%27s magic accounts for the apparent location of the star to the inhabitants %28could be done with mirrors%2C theoretically%29.%0D%0A%0D%0AI assume the PC%27s foundation %28%27bedrock%27%2C if you will%29 is constructed of the same material as the sphere%2C simply because it would have been simple %28%21%29 to extrude%2Fmanufacture%2Ftransmogrify%2Farm-wave-into-existence a wee bit more %28relatively speaking%29 of the same material as used to construct the sphere itself%2C while it was being built.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt seems to me %28upon thinking about it%29 that the gravity problem is pretty much not a problem%2C %2Aassuming%2A that the sphere material is incredibly dense %28which is hinted at fairly often%2C if not outright stated%29. It should only require a layer that is moderately thicker than the sphere itself as the bedrock of the PC to form a suitably strong gravitational field. Give the foundation edges%2C akin to the mountain ranges at the edges of Niven%27s Ringworld%2C to keep air from spilling out%2C and you%27d be all set.%0D%0A%0D%0A--sofaspud%0D%0A-- 13|8|12|||||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|StClair||15:35:13|06/06/2006|Inside a sphere%2C the net gravitational attraction sums to zero.%0D%0A 14|9|13|||1||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|Sofaspud||16:12:06|06/06/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-06 AT 04:25 PM (EDT)]%3EInside a sphere%2C the net gravitational attraction sums to zero. %0D%0A%0D%0AI decided I was being snarky without meaning to. Let me try again.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe net gravitational attraction between the psuedocontinent %28PC%29 and the sphere will equate to 0%2C since the PC is completely contained within the spherical shell.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe net gravitational attraction between the PC and Zeta Cygni %28the star at the center of the sphere%29 will be some non-zero figure. I can%27t begin to guess at what it would be%2C but it would certainly be enough so that the PC would need %28a%29 a support pylon to keep it from %27falling%27 into the star %28which attaches to the sphere and thus makes them one mass for our purposes%29%2C or %28b%29 some amount of orbital motion%2C much like the Earth orbits the sun and thus does not get burnt to a cinder after a few millenia.%0D%0A%0D%0ALikewise%2C the net gravitational attraction between%2C say%2C J. Random New Avalonian and the PC will be some non-zero figure. Between JRNA and Zeta Cygni%3F Negligible - much like we don%27t particularly notice our gravitational attraction to good ol%27 Sol. Between JRNA and the sphere%3F Zero - they%27re inside the hollow sphere.%0D%0A%0D%0A--sofaspud%0D%0A-- 15|8|12|||||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|BLUE||16:56:06|06/06/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-06 AT 05:16 PM (EDT)]%3EHmm... I think maybe you missed what I was saying. Picture the %0D%0A%3Esphere. Now%2C inside it%2C place a psuedocontinent %28PC%29%2C happily %0D%0A%3Eorbiting the star that lives at the center of the sphere %28put it a %0D%0A%3Esafe distance away from the inner surface of the sphere%2C of course %3A%29. %0D%0A%3E People live on the PC%2C with their feet pointing at the star %28on the %0D%0A%3Eother side of the PC%29%2C and their heads at the inner surface of the %0D%0A%3Esphere. Cianbro%27s magic accounts for the apparent location of the %0D%0A%3Estar to the inhabitants %28could be done with mirrors%2C theoretically%29. %0D%0A%0D%0AOkay%2C but that%27s entirely missing the point of building %28or creating%29a dyson sphere in the first place. You build the sphere to give yourself the maximum amount of useable space possible%2C which would be on the inner surface of the sphere%2C not in orbit around the star or hanging inverted from the surface on a pylon.%0D%0A%0D%0AIf the pseudo continent was made up of as much mass as it would take to create it in my example above%2C plus the mass of the sphere itself%2C plus a minute amount of spin to the sphere%2C gravity should take care of itself pretty much. The gravity of the star exerting itself on all points of the sphere equally would keep it positioned%3B at 1 AU %2893 million miles%29 the mass of the pseudo-continent and the mass of the sphere%2C and therefore the combined force of gravity from the two%2C will affect J Random much more than the gravity of the star due to proximity. The mass required to make a dyson sphere is truly enormous%2C and it%27s going to exert it%27s effects on people. Gravity pulls towards the center of mass%2C and the curve of the sphere is so shallow %281 degree of arc is over a million and a half miles%29 that over any distance that means anything to a New Avalonian%2C the center of mass is towards the surface of the sphere. Even if the pseudo-continent is a hundred times smaller than my figures%2C the sphere is still there%2C and it%27s not going away.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd if anyone remembers the episode of ST%3ATNG with Scotty and the Dyson Sphere%2C it was the inner surface of the sphere that was developed%3B maybe that doesn%27t apply here%2C but it%27s the most obvious choice. 17|9|15|||1||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|Mister Fnord||18:45:46|06/06/2006|%0D%0A%3EIf the pseudo continent was made up of as much mass as it would take %0D%0A%3Eto create it in my example above%2C plus the mass of the sphere itself%2C %0D%0A%3Eplus a minute amount of spin to the sphere%2C gravity should take care %0D%0A%3Eof itself pretty much. The gravity of the star exerting itself on all %0D%0A%3Epoints of the sphere equally would keep it positioned%3B at 1 AU %2893 %0D%0A%3Emillion miles%29 the mass of the pseudo-continent and the mass of the %0D%0A%3Esphere%2C and therefore the combined force of gravity from the two%2C will %0D%0A%3Eaffect J Random much more than the gravity of the star due to %0D%0A%3Eproximity. The mass required to make a dyson sphere is truly %0D%0A%3Eenormous%2C and it%27s going to exert it%27s effects on people. Gravity %0D%0A%3Epulls towards the center of mass%2C and the curve of the sphere is so %0D%0A%3Eshallow %281 degree of arc is over a million and a half miles%29 that over %0D%0A%3Eany distance that means anything to a New Avalonian%2C the center of %0D%0A%3Emass is towards the surface of the sphere. Even if the %0D%0A%3Epseudo-continent is a hundred times smaller than my figures%2C the %0D%0A%3Esphere is still there%2C and it%27s not going away. %0D%0A%0D%0AI shouldn%27t get into something this pointlessly geeky%2C but dammit this needs correcting.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe center of mass and gravity for any point on the Sphere would be centered on - is %5Bi%5Dsupposed%5B%2Fi%5D be centered on - Zeta Cygni. Anything attached to the inside of the sphere%2C including the shipyards%2C Avalon%2C the terraforming widgets and whatever other stuff Gryph feels like pulling out of his hat on any given day%2C are included in the total mass of the Sphere. The net gravitational effect is such that anything not firmly attached to the Sphere%27s inner surface is going to %5Bi%5Dfall into the frigging star%5B%2Fi%5D at the rate of however many meters%2Fsecond Zeta Cygni exerts at one AU.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe reason that all the loose junk around New Avalon %28like cars%2C people%2C buildings%2C the atmosphere%2C whatever%29 %5Bi%5Ddon%27t%5B%2Fi%5D exhibit this behavior is because they%27ve got handwavium gravity generators making sure that down faces towards the Sphere and not towards Zeta Cygni. Same basic principle as what keeps people from floating around on the Enterprise.%0D%0A%0D%0ATo sum up all this wandering gibberish%3A %5Bi%5DGravity don%27t work the way you think it works.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A--%0D%0AMr. Fnord%2C free fallin%27 19|10|17|||1||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|Sofaspud||18:59:42|06/06/2006|%0D%0AWhich is why I was trying to come up with a way for it to actually work withOUT Handwavium %28which is notoriously fickle and unstable %3A%29.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe free-floating continent idea%2C or pylon-supported continent%2C would both work%2C AND have the advantage of following the laws of gravity. Assuming you orient them correctly%2C of course.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd it%27s not pointlessly geeky%2C it%27s entertaining%2C dangit. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A--sofaspud%0D%0A-- 20|10|17|||||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|BLUE||19:25:08|06/06/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-06 AT 09:41 PM (EDT)]%3ETo sum up all this wandering gibberish%3A %5Bi%5DGravity don%27t work the way %0D%0A%3Eyou think it works.%5B%2Fi%5D %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m going to be an asshole now. %7BEDIT%3A Well%2C people will probably think I am one%2C anyway.%7D%0D%0A%0D%0AI made a couple of assumptions about the sphere%2C and you%27re right%2C Zeta Cygni WOULD exert a pull. The sphere%2C however%2C WOULD also exert a pull. Maybe an extremely weak one%2C like Phobos or Deimos%2C such that without gravity generators you could jump too hard %28assuming your muscles are used to 1g%29 or throw something and leave the surface and therefore fall under the effects of Zeta Cygni%2C but there is a stupid amount of mass in the sphere%2C and it would have some influence.%0D%0A%0D%0AIf you want to think about why this is so%2C look in our own back yard%2C or rather in our orbit. The moon is tidally locked with the earth%2C so that one face of it always faces earth. If what you said was true%2C anything on the earthward side of the moon would automatically fall towards earth%2C since earth has a stronger gravitational pull than the moon. Since this doesn%27t%2C in fact%2C happen%2C then the mass of the moon must be able to keep stuff firmly attached to the surface.%0D%0A%0D%0AYou were right%2C all mass centers on ZC. From the OUTSIDE. Beyond that is where conventional thought gets a little screwy%2C both because of the sheer scale and because conventional thought was never intended to study or explain a dyson sphere. From the inside%2C I believe what I said above applies%3B think of it as a huge tidally locked lunar surface. Mars%27 moon Deimos%2C being shaped irregularly%2C is 9 miles at it%27s largest %27diameter%27 and 7 at its smaller%2C yet it generates enough gravity that you could walk on it. The sphere would be the same way%2C with the outer surface%2C the shielding%2C whatever %27stuff%27 is necessary to keep the access gates and such operational%2C and the pseudocontinent as well making up the sphere wall certain thickness%2C and the expanse of the surface compensating for the fact that it may only be a mile or two thick.%0D%0A%0D%0ASo%2C you were right about needing generators%2C at least to achieve 1g%2C unless the pseudo-continent and sphere were absurdly thick and%2For the sphere spun extremely quickly. But stuff falling into ZC%3F Only if pushed. 21|11|20|||||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|dstar||10:26:53|06/07/2006|%3EI made a couple of assumptions about the sphere%2C and you%27re right%2C %0D%0A%3EZeta Cygni WOULD exert a pull. The sphere%2C however%2C WOULD also exert %0D%0A%3Ea pull. Maybe an extremely weak one%2C like Phobos or Deimos%2C such that %0D%0A%3Ewithout gravity generators you could jump too hard %28assuming your %0D%0A%3Emuscles are used to 1g%29 or throw something and leave the surface and %0D%0A%3Etherefore fall under the effects of Zeta Cygni%2C but there is a stupid %0D%0A%3Eamount of mass in the sphere%2C and it would have some influence. %0D%0A%0D%0ATake a point on the inner surface of the sphere%2C A. Draw a line L through the center of Zeta Cygni%2C Z%2C and A%2C extending to infinity. Place a plane P normal to L at the point it intersects A. This will divide the sphere into two portions%2C S and S%27. If S is the section of the sphere between A and infinity on L%2C S%27 is the larger portion of the sphere.%0D%0A%0D%0AWith me so far%3F Here%27s why the sphere exerts no pull on anything inside it%3A S has a %27positive%27 gravitational pull G %28postitive%2C in this case%2C being defined as pulling the pseudo-continent away from the star%29. But S%27 _also_ has a gravitational pull%2C G%27%2C and since it%27s on the opposite side of A%2C it%27s pull is %5Bi%5Dnegative%5B%2Fi%5D. S%27 is%2C on average%2C much farther away%2C but it is _also_ far%2C far more massive.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe result%3F G %2B G%27 %3D 0. G%27 is %5Bb%5Dexactly the same size as G%5B%2Fb%5D%2C but its sign is reversed%2C resulting in no net gravitational pull.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EIf you want to think about why this is so%2C look in our own back yard%2C %0D%0A%3Eor rather in our orbit. The moon is tidally locked with the earth%2C so %0D%0A%3Ethat one face of it always faces earth. If what you said was true%2C %0D%0A%3Eanything on the earthward side of the moon would automatically fall %0D%0A%3Etowards earth%2C since earth has a stronger gravitational pull than the %0D%0A%3Emoon. Since this doesn%27t%2C in fact%2C happen%2C then the mass of the moon %0D%0A%3Emust be able to keep stuff firmly attached to the surface. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%0D%0AThe difference is that the moon is not a shell around the Earth.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EYou were right%2C all mass centers on ZC. From the OUTSIDE. Beyond %0D%0A%3Ethat is where conventional thought gets a little screwy%2C both because %0D%0A%3Eof the sheer scale and because conventional thought was never intended %0D%0A%3Eto study or explain a dyson sphere.%0D%0A%0D%0ANo%2C it has nothing to do with scale. The exact same thing would apply to a marble surrounded by a tennis ball. The key thing is the mass of the rest of the shell%3B you can%27t ignore it. If you could%2C what you are saying would be the case. 22|12|21|||1||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|Gryphon||15:33:26|06/07/2006|%3EG%27 is %5Bb%5Dexactly the same size as G%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AHe%27d fucking better be. He%27s only a single mathematical iteration.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0Ayou can stop now%2C by the way.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A 23|12|21|||||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|BLUE||19:24:49|06/07/2006|%3ENo%2C it has nothing to do with scale. The exact same thing would apply %0D%0A%3Eto a marble surrounded by a tennis ball. The key thing is the mass of %0D%0A%3Ethe rest of the shell%3B you can%27t ignore it. If you could%2C what you are %0D%0A%3Esaying would be the case. %0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m not 100%25 convinced%2C but mostly b%2Fc I%27m not sure we really understand gravity enough. But I%27ll shut up about it.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat%27s the advantage to a dyson sphere then%2C though%3F Being able to trap all the energy put out by whatever star is great and all%2C but what does one do with it%3F New Avalon is a drop in the ocean of surface area inside the sphere%2C what%27s being done with the rest of it%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AI agree it%27s hella cool%2C and would be intimidating as all hell to the 99.umpty-9%25 of people who don%27t know how it was created and look at it and go %22They BUILT that thing%3F%22. And you certainly would never run out of space. But the more I think about it%2C the more I think the concept in general is beyond nuts. 25|13|23|||1||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|Gryphon||19:36:58|06/07/2006|%3ENew Avalon is a drop in the ocean of %0D%0A%3Esurface area inside the sphere%2C what%27s being done with the rest of it%3F %0D%0A%0D%0APhotovoltaic cells.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EI agree it%27s hella cool%2C and would be intimidating as all hell to the %0D%0A%3E99.umpty-9%25 of people who don%27t know how it was created and look at it %0D%0A%3Eand go %22They BUILT that thing%3F%22.%0D%0A%0D%0AMore and%2For better reasons than these were not required by the Reconstruction-era WDF.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A 27|14|25|||||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|BLUE||23:50:13|06/07/2006|%3E%3EI agree it%27s hella cool%2C and would be intimidating as all hell to the %0D%0A%3E%3E99.umpty-9%25 of people who don%27t know how it was created and look at it %0D%0A%3E%3Eand go %22They BUILT that thing%3F%22.%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EMore and%2For better reasons than these were not required by the %0D%0A%3EReconstruction-era WDF. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0ATHAT%2C I have no problem whatsoever believing. Besides%2C someone probably felt they just had to top the AT%26T. 26|12|21|||1||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|Pasha||23:15:57|06/07/2006|If you really want to argue about non-traditional world building%2C go read the pendorverse.%0D%0A-- %0D%0A-Pasha%0D%0A%22I invented Warp Drive%2C whatta ya got%3F%22%0D%0A%22I%27m the Norse God of Mecha.%22%0D%0A%22Well%2C I guess you win then.%22 18|9|15|||1||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|Sofaspud||18:56:33|06/06/2006|I dunno%2C I imagine the free power available %28think%3A gadzillions of miles of solar panels%21%29 to a Dyson Sphere is a non-trivial consideration. I mean%2C if nothing else%2C they won%27t need to bother with actually generating power%2C just collecting and distributing it.%0D%0A%0D%0A%28Heh. The phrase %22open-air fusion reactor%22 just rolled through my mind%2C which is in effect what a Dyson Sphere could be.%29%0D%0A%0D%0AAs for the positioning of the psuedocontinent%3A I personally believe in Murphy%27s Law. So%2C were I designing a Happy Fun Dyson Sphere Community%2C I%27d make sure that no matter what that pesky misbehaving star got up to%2C I %28and by extension%2C the other shambling meatsacks occupying my city%2C dagnabbit%29 would be safe.%0D%0A%0D%0AErgo%2C put the strongest material in the universe between myself and that nuclear holocaust known as Zeta Cygni. Just in case. It costs nothing %28compared to the cost of the sphere itself%2C anyway%29%2C makes some things easier%2C and solves the problem in a foolproof way. Bounce the light I want %28minus harmful radiations%29 around using mirrors to simulate the day%2Fnight cycle.%0D%0A%0D%0AI wouldn%27t necessarily go so far as to say that the sphere material is strong enough to contain%2C say%2C a supernova... but then again%2C it might well be. It stopped a Kryptonian artifact moving a relatavistic speeds%2C after all%2C with minimal damage... %3B%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A--sofaspud%0D%0A-- 7|1|0|||||You%27re forgetting a key fact%3A|BZArcher||18:33:31|06/05/2006|A Wizard did it. 24|2|7|||||RE%3A You%27re forgetting a key fact%3A|Moonsword||19:35:48|06/07/2006|I like that. It makes sense. For that matter%2C it%27s less math that way. Can we just name the wizard %22Gryphon%2C a writer who inspires imaginations%22 and accept the wizard theory%3F 28|3|24|||||RE%3A You%27re forgetting a key fact%3A|Star Ranger4||13:08:42|06/08/2006|%3EI like that. It makes sense. For that matter%2C it%27s less math that %0D%0A%3Eway. Can we just name the wizard %22Gryphon%2C a writer who inspires %0D%0A%3Eimaginations%22 and accept the wizard theory%3F %0D%0A%0D%0ANope. Because it was Lord Farfegnugen who actually provided the sphere%2C not UF-G.%0D%0AStill%2C subsituting Lord F for G in the above...%0D%0A%0D%0AHmm. Ok%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22It was made by a Wizard. Lord Farfegnugen%2C who%27s technology is sufficently advanced as to be indistinguishable from magic.%22 29|4|28|||1||RE%3A You%27re forgetting a key fact%3A|Sofaspud||13:20:00|06/08/2006|%3E%22It was made by a Wizard. Lord Farfegnugen%2C who%27s technology is %0D%0A%3Esufficently advanced as to be indistinguishable from magic.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AI miss Farvie. He was fun. %0D%0A%0D%0AI also%2C sometimes%2C get to wondering just what Big Cosmic Evil%21%21%21 he supposedly created the Wedge Rats for in the first place. That particular bit of UF history seems to have been negated by events in UF-Core-4%2C but I still go cross-eyed sometimes when trying to puzzle it out. %28%22Lord F created the Rats... but Rats from OUR universe created the UF-verse... and created Lord F... oh dear me%2C there I go again. Ow.%22%29%0D%0A%0D%0AIf Teh Evil was Surtur%2C then I%27d have thought Wolfie%27d have put in an appearance during the Twilight arc. We know he%27s not all-powerful - heck%2C he%27s not as tough%2C physically%2C as a Kryptonian %28cf. Decker%27s assassination attempt%29 - but he does have as-yet-unexplained Vast Frickin%27 Resources.%0D%0A%0D%0AIf nothing else%2C I can accept that Lord F possesses the requisite technomagical competence to have engineered the Zeta Cygni Dyson sphere%2C however it was actually constructed and planned.%0D%0A%0D%0A%28Though part of me still insists it was done by UF-Gryphon%2C after proving his innocence but before reconciling with Kei. I dunno%2C it just seems like something he%27d have done. Lord F seems less... imaginative%3F%29%0D%0A%0D%0A--sofaspud%0D%0A-- 30|5|29|||||RE%3A You%27re forgetting a key fact%3A|mdg1||16:16:00|06/08/2006|If I were going to make a supposition%2C I%27d say that Lord F was Odin in disguise. %3A%29%0D%0A 33|5|29|||||RE%3A You%27re forgetting a key fact%3A|Moonsword||20:27:25|06/08/2006|Maybe he%27s not as imaginative but you have to admit that Lord F%27s resources%2C at least%2C are probably the backing behind the Sphere as a project. The sheer cost of something like that would be ruinous%2C I would think. For that matter%2C once Gryphon had the idea%2C Lord F might have simply run with it.%0D%0A%0D%0AStill%2C I have to wonder just what the timescale was for the Sphere%27s construction. It seems... unlikely that such a large project would have been built in a couple of years. That makes me think that while Gryphon is in on it %28whether after the fact or not%29%2C Lord F was the motivating factor behind the Sphere itself. Not New Avalon as a city but the Zeta Cygni Sphere.%0D%0A%0D%0AThat almost makes sense%2C actually. Lord F seems like someone who would have had the almost-insane vision for the Sphere but Gryphon%2C eccentric soul that he is%2C would almost be required for the city. If I remember correctly%2C the headquarters for the WDF was based out of the yards for a while%2C right%3F 32|4|28|||||RE%3A You%27re forgetting a key fact%3A|Moonsword||20:17:56|06/08/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-06 AT 08:20 PM (EDT)]Uhm%2C you seem to have missed who I was referring to. I%27m not referring to Gryphon in the story. I was referring to the %5Bi%5Dauthor%5B%2Fi%5D whose vision had managed to spark off this whole debate. In the story%2C I agree with you. For that matter%2C I at least don%27t have any idea who Cianbro is except for building the Sphere and associated paraphenalia.%0D%0A%0D%0A%2AGoogles%2A%0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C I%27m going to guess that this was a reference to the modern Cianbro Corporation which is a construction firm. Still%2C given the tech involved%2C Lord F is a pretty likely backer for the whole thing... and technology is nothing without vision which%2C admittedly%2C Lord F cannot be said to have lacked. 34|5|32|||1||RE%3A You%27re forgetting a key fact%3A|Gryphon||22:18:47|06/08/2006|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-06 AT 10:21 PM (EDT)]%3EWell%2C I%27m going to guess that this was a reference to the modern %0D%0A%3ECianbro Corporation which is a construction firm.%0D%0A%0D%0AQuite so. I worked for Cianbro in the summer of 1992. I still work for them%2C sort of%2C in that I do public relations writing for the firm that handles their account. I had a long-standing fondness for the company%27s safety culture and its management%27s focus on employee relations. You don%27t see open-shop %28or%2C as they like to call it now%2C merit-shop%29 employee-owned general contractors with safety standards higher than the government%27s all that often. I felt they deserved to be immortalized%2C after a fashion.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A 36|6|34|||||RE%3A You%27re forgetting a key fact%3A|Moonsword||15:17:06|06/09/2006|That%27s a really neat way of doing something like that%2C actually. And%2C from what you%27re saying%2C they sound like a very nice company. 31|1|0|||1||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|BlackAeronaut||20:05:56|06/08/2006|%2ALooks up at huge geek-fest over the sphere%2A%0D%0AI know Gryphon%27s already put his foot down on the matter%2C but all the same... Holy hell%2C people.%0D%0A%0D%0ABesides%2C I like ring worlds like the Halo much better. At that size%2C they%27re more flexible and fun%21%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Btable%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd%5D%5Bhr%5D%5Bfont size%3D%222%22 face%3D%22Arial Narrow%22%5D%5Bb%5DBlack Aeronaut Technologies%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0ACreative aerospace solutions for the discerning spacer%0D%0A%5Bi%5D%22What%3F Under the dorsal guiding feathers%21%3F%22%5B%2Fi%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D 35|1|0|||1||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|Apostate_Soul||14:55:14|06/09/2006|%0D%0AI%27m not sure if I should apologise or not%2C but my full apology for%2C it seems%2C opening an old topic again%2C and generating this huge discussion. I only expected a little semi-humorous comment as a response and not the huge debate that sprang up...%0D%0A____________________%0D%0A%0D%0A%22It%27s difficult keeping up with the cross-continuity%2C but I think Cosmouse just gave The Saturnian Scraphunter his Ultimate Pacifier to use against Galactapuss...%22 37|2|35|||||RE%3A Wait... what%3F|Druid||23:06:06|06/09/2006|%3E%0D%0A%3EI%27m not sure if I should apologise or not%2C but my full apology for%2C it %0D%0A%3Eseems%2C opening an old topic again%2C and generating this huge %0D%0A%3Ediscussion. I only expected a little semi-humorous comment as a %0D%0A%3Eresponse and not the huge debate that sprang up... %0D%0A%0D%0A People will take any excuse to argue about something. Speaking as someone who has absolutely no authority here whatsoever%2C I wouldn%27t worry about it. %3A%29 The forum archive for the original UF archive is quite... large.%0D%0A%0D%0A--%0D%0ADruid