30||0|4673|0|yes 0|0|0|||1||Surprise-Class|McFortner||23:05:40|05/10/2009|[updated:LAST EDITED ON May-11-09 AT 00:49 AM (EDT)]OK%2C Gryph%2C I think I have a rough model of the Surprise-Class. From your description I got the idea it would be like a 24th Century version of FASA%27s Loknar-Class. So here she is%3A%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb47.webshots.com%2F21742%2F2489172680099072508S600x600Q85.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0AThe full size can be found here%3A http%3A%2F%2Fgood-times.webshots.com%2Fphoto%2F2489172680099072508KZbrCg Just click on the image and tell it full screen.%0D%0A%0D%0ASorry the drawing is rough%2C but the only line drawing of the Sovereign-Class I could find was rough. Now for some of the real artists here to make a better looking drawing....%0D%0A%0D%0AMichael %0D%0A%0D%0A%28edited for my poor spelling....%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Btable border%3D%220%22 cellspacing%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%220%22%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd width%3D%2265%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.railroadforum.com%2Fupload%2Fmcfortner%2Fsabrina.gif%5B%2Ftd%5D%0D%0A%5Btd%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22black%22 size%3D-1%5DMichael C. Fortner%5B%2Ffont%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22red%22 size%3D-1%5D %0D%0ARCW %232%5Bsup%5Dn%5B%2Fsup%5D 1%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22green%22 size%3D-1%5D%22I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time.%22%0D%0A-- Mark Twain%0D%0A%5Bfont%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D %0D%0A 1|1|0|||1||RE%3A Surprise-Class|Gryphon||23:48:52|05/10/2009|I had pictured it as a closer analog to the old %5Bi%5DReliant%5B%2Fi%5D%2C with the warp engines below the saucer%2C but that is otherwise very close%21 I%27d be interested in seeing it the other way round%2C if it wouldn%27t be too much of a hassle%3B maybe when they%27re next to each other%2C it%27ll turn out that the engines-on-top version looks better.%0D%0A%0D%0A%28Two Rs%2C though. Not a big deal%2C unless someone goes to do hull graphics%2C but still. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 2|2|1|||1||RE%3A Surprise-Class|McFortner||23:58:03|05/10/2009|Heh%2C sorry bout that. I can%27t spell worth a flip and I must have not paid attention to my spell checker.... %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0AGive me a few and I%27ll work on the other version.%0D%0A%0D%0AMichael%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Btable border%3D%220%22 cellspacing%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%220%22%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd width%3D%2265%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.railroadforum.com%2Fupload%2Fmcfortner%2Fsabrina.gif%5B%2Ftd%5D%0D%0A%5Btd%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22black%22 size%3D-1%5DMichael C. Fortner%5B%2Ffont%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22red%22 size%3D-1%5D %0D%0ARCW %232%5Bsup%5Dn%5B%2Fsup%5D%2B1%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22green%22 size%3D-1%5D%22I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time.%22%0D%0A-- Mark Twain%0D%0A%5Bfont%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D %0D%0A 3|1|0|||1||Surprise-Class|McFortner||00:41:40|05/11/2009|Ok%2C here is Reliant based Surprise-Class %28spelled it right this time%21%29%3A%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb30.webshots.com%2F41117%2F2930999680099072508S600x600Q85.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0AFull size view can be found at http%3A%2F%2Fgood-times.webshots.com%2Fphoto%2F2930999680099072508AWLijY%0D%0A%0D%0AMichael%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Btable border%3D%220%22 cellspacing%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%220%22%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd width%3D%2265%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.railroadforum.com%2Fupload%2Fmcfortner%2Fsabrina.gif%5B%2Ftd%5D%0D%0A%5Btd%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22black%22 size%3D-1%5DMichael C. Fortner%5B%2Ffont%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22red%22 size%3D-1%5D %0D%0ARCW %232%5Bsup%5Dn%5B%2Fsup%5D%2B1%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22green%22 size%3D-1%5D%22I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time.%22%0D%0A-- Mark Twain%0D%0A%5Bfont%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D %0D%0A 4|1|0|||1||RE%3A Surprise-Class|McFortner||00:43:31|05/11/2009|[updated:LAST EDITED ON May-11-09 AT 00:51 AM (EDT)]The comparison between the two designs%3A%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb48.webshots.com%2F42223%2F2211529310099072508S600x600Q85.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0A%28Full size at http%3A%2F%2Fgood-times.webshots.com%2Fphoto%2F2211529310099072508dsxaNT%29%0D%0A%0D%0AI figure that whichever you don%27t use could be the destroyer version to the Surprise-Class Frigate.%0D%0A%0D%0AOpinions%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AMichael%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Btable border%3D%220%22 cellspacing%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%220%22%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd width%3D%2265%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.railroadforum.com%2Fupload%2Fmcfortner%2Fsabrina.gif%5B%2Ftd%5D%0D%0A%5Btd%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22black%22 size%3D-1%5DMichael C. Fortner%5B%2Ffont%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22red%22 size%3D-1%5D %0D%0ARCW %232%5Bsup%5Dn%5B%2Fsup%5D%2B1%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22green%22 size%3D-1%5D%22I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time.%22%0D%0A-- Mark Twain%0D%0A%5Bfont%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D %0D%0A 5|2|4|||||RE%3A Surprise-Class|Star Ranger4||01:45:45|05/11/2009|I know I dont really get a vote myself%2C but I personally prefer the looks of the high naecel version G. 6|2|4|||1||RE%3A Surprise-Class|WengFook||04:09:12|05/11/2009|%0D%0AI dunno but it seems like the warp nacelles are canted a little too far down compared to the high-nacelle version%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A_____________________________________________%0D%0A%22Walls are meant to be broken.%22 - makes sense both figuratively and literally.%0D%0A 7|3|6|||1||RE%3A Surprise-Class|Prince Charon||07:11:28|05/11/2009|If it matters%2C I agree with you.%0D%0A%0D%0A%93They planned their campaigns just as you might make a splendid piece of harness. It looks very well%3B and answers very well%3B until it gets broken%3B and then you are done for. Now I made my campaigns of ropes. If anything went wrong%2C I tied a knot%3B and went on.%94%0D%0A%09-- Arthur Wellesley%2C First Duke of Wellington 8|3|6|||||RE%3A Surprise-Class|BeardedFerret||08:38:47|05/11/2009|Yeah%2C I agree. I think it%27s because the lower half of the saucer curves more.%0D%0A%0D%0ASexy ship%2C though. She could vent my warp core any day of the week%2C if you know what I mean. 9|3|6|||1||RE%3A Surprise-Class|Gryphon||12:44:15|05/11/2009|%3EI dunno but it seems like the warp nacelles are canted a little too %0D%0A%3Efar down compared to the high-nacelle version%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AMm%2C this could be. They look all right in profile%2C but from directly in front the pylons look too long. %28The nacelles are on upside-down%2C too%2C which probably doesn%27t help. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0AOne thing to keep in mind when weighing these up is that %5Bi%5DSurprise%5B%2Fi%5D is rather smaller than %5Bi%5DChallenger%5B%2Fi%5D %28which is on the humongous side as this style of starship goes%29%3B her construction isn%27t simply a %5Bi%5DSovereign%5B%2Fi%5D dish and warp engines with the secondary hull omitted%2C the external arrangement is also scaled down by about 30 percent. %28I say %22external arrangement%22 because%2C well%2C obviously inside the ceilings aren%27t all 30 percent lower%2C etc. %3A%29 It%27s pretty much impossible to see without a scale reference%2C so for purposes of actually making the artwork it doesn%27t matter%2C but it should be borne in mind when looking at them.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 10|4|9|||||RE%3A Surprise-Class|Vehrec||17:43:44|05/11/2009|%3EOne thing to keep in mind when weighing these up is that %0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5DSurprise%5B%2Fi%5D is rather smaller than %5Bi%5DChallenger%5B%2Fi%5D %28which is on %0D%0A%3Ethe humongous side as this style of starship goes%29%3B her construction %0D%0A%3Eisn%27t simply a %5Bi%5DSovereign%5B%2Fi%5D dish and warp engines with the %0D%0A%3Esecondary hull omitted%2C the external arrangement is also scaled down %0D%0A%3Eby about 30 percent. %28I say %22external arrangement%22 because%2C well%2C %0D%0A%3Eobviously inside the ceilings aren%27t all 30 percent lower%2C etc. %3A%29 %0D%0A%3EIt%27s pretty much impossible to see without a scale reference%2C so for %0D%0A%3Epurposes of actually making the artwork it doesn%27t matter%2C but it %0D%0A%3Eshould be borne in mind when looking at them. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3E--G. %0D%0A%3E-%3E%3C- %0D%0A%3EBenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin %0D%0A%3EEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F %0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D %0D%0A%0D%0A30%25 scaled down%3F Is that by mass or by length%3F I do not want to think about all the problems that caused for the designer of the thing%2C given what I know about warship design. Probably involved a divorce%2C the loss of a good two inches of hairline and the gain of about 10-15 kilos if it was a male. Being put in charge of a major project is apparently a major source of stress%2C if my sources can be believed.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn all seriousness%2C even if the nacelles are shared the hull would have to be a totally new design. If the nacelles are proportionally scaled down%2C then you have to shell out more money for a new design and fabrication equipment to make the smaller design%2C and that doesn%27t save you any money because the hull still needs to be redesigned to fit the reactor and to resist different stresses than the full-sized design would experience. It might not be quite as big a job as the sister design%2C but it wouldn%27t be easy either. 16|5|10|||1||RE%3A Surprise-Class|Gryphon||23:13:29|05/11/2009|%3EIn all seriousness%2C even if the nacelles are shared the hull would %0D%0A%3Ehave to be a totally new design.%0D%0A%0D%0AWell... yes%2C but that%27s what it %5Bi%5Dis%5B%2Fi%5D. The %22it%27s made of %5Bi%5DSovereign%5B%2Fi%5D parts%22 thing is just a note to the prop department%2C as it were - it has no bearing on the in-story realities of the ship%27s construction%2C apart from the fact that %5Bi%5DSovereign%5B%2Fi%5D and %5Bi%5DSurprise%5B%2Fi%5D share an aesthetic design language%2C if you will.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 11|4|9|||1||RE%3A Surprise-Class|McFortner||17:52:05|05/11/2009|Heh%2C what can I say%2C I%27m a hack when it comes to design and drawing. I just bash around in GIMP. My biggest problem was that with the engines %22right side up%22 I could not figure a way to attach them to the pylons and look right. And I thought the pylons might be too long on the bottom%2C that%27s why I went with my first idea and had them above the saucer. Of course%2C I%27m no Phil or Jeremy or Chad%2C so my art bites. But at least this should give somebody better at it a beginning for a good drawing....%0D%0A%0D%0AMichael%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Btable border%3D%220%22 cellspacing%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%220%22%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd width%3D%2265%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.railroadforum.com%2Fupload%2Fmcfortner%2Fsabrina.gif%5B%2Ftd%5D%0D%0A%5Btd%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22black%22 size%3D-1%5DMichael C. Fortner%5B%2Ffont%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22red%22 size%3D-1%5D %0D%0ARCW %232%5Bsup%5Dn%5B%2Fsup%5D%2B1%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22green%22 size%3D-1%5D%22I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time.%22%0D%0A-- Mark Twain%0D%0A%5Bfont%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D %0D%0A 12|4|9|||1||RE%3A Surprise-Class|McFortner||18:00:26|05/11/2009|%3EOne thing to keep in mind when weighing these up is that %0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5DSurprise%5B%2Fi%5D is rather smaller than %5Bi%5DChallenger%5B%2Fi%5D %28which is on %0D%0A%3Ethe humongous side as this style of starship goes%29%3B her construction %0D%0A%3Eisn%27t simply a %5Bi%5DSovereign%5B%2Fi%5D dish and warp engines with the %0D%0A%3Esecondary hull omitted%2C the external arrangement is also scaled down %0D%0A%3Eby about 30 percent. %0D%0A%0D%0ALike this%3F%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb60.webshots.com%2F41979%2F2661861920099072508S600x600Q85.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0AMichael%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Btable border%3D%220%22 cellspacing%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%220%22%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd width%3D%2265%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.railroadforum.com%2Fupload%2Fmcfortner%2Fsabrina.gif%5B%2Ftd%5D%0D%0A%5Btd%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22black%22 size%3D-1%5DMichael C. Fortner%5B%2Ffont%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22red%22 size%3D-1%5D %0D%0ARCW %232%5Bsup%5Dn%5B%2Fsup%5D%2B1%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22green%22 size%3D-1%5D%22I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time.%22%0D%0A-- Mark Twain%0D%0A%5Bfont%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D %0D%0A 13|5|12|||1||RE%3A Surprise-Class|Wedge||18:12:17|05/11/2009|Aww%2C it%27s cute%21%0D%0A%0D%0ADoes it matter all that much that the nacelles are flipped%2C Gryph%3F I mean%2C the%27d function just the same%2C right%3F I%27m assuming that mounting to the fiddly glowwy bits that run along the %27top%27 would be kind of a pain.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Btable border%3D%220%22 cellspacing%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%220%22%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%221%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.gweep.net%2F%7Ewedge%2Fufchad_ficon.jpg%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btd%5DChad Collier%0D%0ASmirking Kilrathi%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%230000CC%5DThe Captain of the Gravy Train%5B%2Ffont%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%221%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D 14|6|13|||||RE%3A Surprise-Class|Zox||21:42:08|05/11/2009|%3EDoes it matter all that much that the nacelles are flipped%2C Gryph%3F I %0D%0A%3Emean%2C the%27d function just the same%2C right%3F I%27m assuming that mounting %0D%0A%3Eto the fiddly glowwy bits that run along the %27top%27 would be kind of a %0D%0A%3Epain. %0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C I%27d assume the nacelles wouldn%27t be identical--especially since they%27re a different size. Maybe something a bit different but in the same design %22family%22%3A%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Flordzox.com%2Fsketches%2Fsurprise_noodle2.gif 15|6|13|||1||RE%3A Surprise-Class|Gryphon||23:04:45|05/11/2009|%3EDoes it matter all that much that the nacelles are flipped%2C Gryph%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ANo%2C I suppose it doesn%27t%2C really%3B doubly so since%2C the more I look at them%2C the more inclined I feel to go with the version with the engines on top.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 17|7|15|||||RE%3A Surprise-Class|StClair||00:34:07|05/12/2009|Aw%2C I liked the %22inverted and tucked-in%22 version.%0D%0A 18|7|15|||||RE%3A Surprise-Class|jadmire||00:43:27|05/12/2009|I prefer that version%2C too. The side profile gives it a haunting resemblance%2C at least from my own POV%2C to a classic Romulan Warbird.%0D%0A%0D%0A-Joe- 19|7|15|||||RE%3A Surprise-Class|The Traitor||03:13:34|05/12/2009|I%27m with the rest of the peasants on this one%2C my liege Gryphon. The one with the lower nacelles just makes me wanna give it a cuddle. Which is probably a bit odd considering it%27s an interstellar warship weighing in at Gods-know-how-many tons%2C but there you are. Jane%27s Fighting Ships%27d make a plushie version of the Surprise-class and by Christ would it sell... 20|7|15|||||RE%3A Surprise-Class|BeardedFerret||05:11:46|05/12/2009|He used to be indecisive%3B now he%27s just not sure. 21|8|20|||1||RE%3A Surprise-Class|WengFook||05:38:24|05/12/2009|%0D%0AI%27m probably being mean but the longer I look at the profile of the high-nacelle version the more I think it resembles a hood ornament %3AD although now that I think about it having a starship model as a hood ornament would be pretty damn awesome %28needless to say it would be stolen within the first two hours of buying said ornament.%29 %3AD%0D%0A%0D%0AThe profile of the nacelle-down version however reminds me of the runabouts used in the shows%2C just scaled up to full starship size and aesthetics. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A_____________________________________________%0D%0A%22Walls are meant to be broken.%22 - makes sense both figuratively and literally.%0D%0A 23|5|12|||||RE%3A Surprise-Class|CdrMike||17:37:23|05/12/2009|When you post%27em together like that%2C the one with the nacelles on top looks like you shrunk the Challenger in the wash.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22It says on the tag %27Dry Clean Only%27%21%22 22|3|6|||1||RE%3A Surprise-Class|McFortner||09:26:39|05/12/2009|[updated:LAST EDITED ON May-12-09 AT 09:42 AM (EDT)]%3E%0D%0A%3EI dunno but it seems like the warp nacelles are canted a little too %0D%0A%3Efar down compared to the high-nacelle version%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AI think on the side view they are a little too far down%2C but compared to the proportions of the Miranda%2C they are pretty close to the same. A couple of quick comparisons to show you what I mean. Of course%2C the Surprise is much bigger than a Miranda....%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb12.webshots.com%2F21579%2F2199845950099072508S600x600Q85.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb12.webshots.com%2F45131%2F2802778420099072508S500x500Q85.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0AI didn%27t want to go with the straight down struts because it didn%27t look as good IMHO. %0D%0A%0D%0AOh%2C and here is the first version compared with the Loknar.%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb06.webshots.com%2F43717%2F2548978500099072508S600x600Q85.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0ANot bad considering I didn%27t really refer to the TMP ships until AFTER I had done the Surprise versions. I did them by eye and adjusted to what looked %22right%22 to me first.%0D%0A%0D%0AMichael%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Btable border%3D%220%22 cellspacing%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%220%22%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd width%3D%2265%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.railroadforum.com%2Fupload%2Fmcfortner%2Fsabrina.gif%5B%2Ftd%5D%0D%0A%5Btd%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22black%22 size%3D-1%5DMichael C. Fortner%5B%2Ffont%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22red%22 size%3D-1%5D %0D%0ARCW %232%5Bsup%5Dn%5B%2Fsup%5D%2B1%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22green%22 size%3D-1%5D%22I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time.%22%0D%0A-- Mark Twain%0D%0A%5Bfont%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D %0D%0A 24|1|0|||1||RE%3A Surprise-Class|McFortner||20:31:07|05/17/2009|So%2C Gryph%2C any decision on which one you prefer yet%3F Or are you waiting for someone with more talent than I have to make a better rendition of the two designs%3F %3B%29%0D%0A%0D%0AMichael%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Btable border%3D%220%22 cellspacing%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%220%22%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd width%3D%2265%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.railroadforum.com%2Fupload%2Fmcfortner%2Fsabrina.gif%5B%2Ftd%5D%0D%0A%5Btd%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22black%22 size%3D-1%5DMichael C. Fortner%5B%2Ffont%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22red%22 size%3D-1%5D %0D%0ARCW %232%5Bsup%5Dn%5B%2Fsup%5D%2B1%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22green%22 size%3D-1%5D%22I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time.%22%0D%0A-- Mark Twain%0D%0A%5Bfont%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D %0D%0A 25|2|24|||1||RE%3A Surprise-Class|Gryphon||21:28:53|05/17/2009|%3ESo%2C Gryph%2C any decision on which one you prefer yet%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ADidn%27t I say like a week ago%3F Hmm. No%2C I guess I didn%27t%2C I just said I was leaning that way. My mistake%2C I could%27ve sworn I followed that up.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnyway%2C yeah%2C I like the one with the engines on top better. I had a mental picture that was more %5Bi%5DReliant%5B%2Fi%5D-like%2C but the marked top-and-bottom asymmetry of the %5Bi%5DSovereign%5B%2Fi%5D-style main hull makes it not really work in practice.%0D%0A%0D%0AAlso%2C upon further review%2C I think I specified too drastic a scaling-down%3B at that size she%27s not that much bigger than a %5Bi%5DDefiant%5B%2Fi%5D%2C and she%27s supposed to be a frigate to the %5Bi%5DSovereign%5B%2Fi%5D%27s line-of-battle ship%2C as it were. I think maybe 75%25 would be more like it.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 26|3|25|||1||RE%3A Surprise-Class|McFortner||08:25:06|05/18/2009|[updated:LAST EDITED ON May-18-09 AT 08:50 AM (EDT)]%3EAlso%2C upon further review%2C I think I specified too drastic a %0D%0A%3Escaling-down%3B at that size she%27s not that much bigger than a %0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5DDefiant%5B%2Fi%5D%2C and she%27s supposed to be a frigate to the %0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5DSovereign%5B%2Fi%5D%27s line-of-battle ship%2C as it were. I think maybe 75%25 %0D%0A%3Ewould be more like it. %0D%0A%0D%0AGryph%2C using figures I found at http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ditl.org and I am thinking 70%25 may be about right. Look at this comparison image I did up%3A%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb03.webshots.com%2F38914%2F2500252420099072508S600x600Q85.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0AWith the Sovereign Class at 680 meters and a Defiant Class at 170.68 meters%2C the Surprise Class would come out to be around 380 meters. That would make it longer than a refit Constitution Class at 305 meters. At 75%25 saucer scale%2C it would be around 407 meters.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat do you think%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Btable border%3D%220%22 cellspacing%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%220%22%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd width%3D%2265%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.railroadforum.com%2Fupload%2Fmcfortner%2Fsabrina.gif%5B%2Ftd%5D%0D%0A%5Btd%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22black%22 size%3D-1%5DMichael C. Fortner%5B%2Ffont%5D%5Bfont color%3D%22red%22 size%3D-1%5D %0D%0ARCW %232%5Bsup%5Dn%5B%2Fsup%5D%2B1%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22green%22 size%3D-1%5D%22I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time.%22%0D%0A-- Mark Twain%0D%0A%5Bfont%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D %0D%0A 27|4|26|||1||RE%3A Surprise-Class|Gryphon||10:59:16|05/18/2009|%3EWith the Sovereign Class at 680 meters and a Defiant Class at 170.68 %0D%0A%3Emeters%2C the Surprise Class would come out to be around 380 meters. %0D%0A%3EThat would make it longer than a refit Constitution Class at 305 %0D%0A%3Emeters. At 75%25 saucer scale%2C it would be around 407 meters. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EWhat do you think%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AYeah%2C that works. I%27m not too fussed about the numbers%2C but it looks right in the picture. Go with it%21%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 28|1|0|||1||RE%3A Surprise-Class|McFortner||18:19:02|10/21/2009|Ok%2C I was looking at Starship Modeler and saw this submission. I think this is what you originally had in mind for the Surprise Class.%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.starshipmodeler.us%2Fgallery14%2Fjs_101409_relhero.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.starshipmodeler.us%2Fgallery14%2Fjs_101409_rellrear.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.starshipmodeler.us%2Fgallery14%2Fjs_101409_relright.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0ACheck out the listing at http%3A%2F%2Fwww.starshipmodeler.us%2Fgallery14%2Fjs_101409_rel.htm%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22black%22%5DMichael C. Fortner%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22green%22 size%3D-1%5D%22Rule 37%3A There is no such thing as %22overkill%22.%0D%0AThere is only %22open fire%22 and %22I need to reload%22.%5B%2Ffont%5D 29|2|28|||1||RE%3A Surprise-Class|Gryphon||18:56:27|10/21/2009|Yep%2C that is indeed pretty much bang on what my original concept was. And nicely executed%2C too%21%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Admin%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 30|3|29|||1||RE%3A Surprise-Class|McFortner||19:10:11|10/21/2009|And we have a few photos of the Surprise class now. Wish I was that talented with models. I couldn%27t even get them to blow up right.%0D%0A%0D%0AMichael%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22black%22%5DMichael C. Fortner%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22green%22 size%3D-1%5D%22Rule 37%3A There is no such thing as %22overkill%22.%0D%0AThere is only %22open fire%22 and %22I need to reload%22.%5B%2Ffont%5D