10||0|3352|0|yes
0|0|0|||1||President Clark vs. the IPO|Peter Eng||16:54:44|06/18/2013|%3EThe point I%27m trying to edge around to is I%27m wondering if Bill Clark %0D%0A%3Ehas the power to come at the IPO sideways now that he%27s in the big %0D%0A%3Echair. Do shit like reduce the Federation share of their funding%2C hold %0D%0A%3Ehearing after hearing after hearing %28forcing valuable Lensmen to be %0D%0A%3Etied up endlessly in Paris%29 other stuff like that. The EA already %0D%0A%3Ewithdrew from the Accords%3B engineering a complete Federation %0D%0A%3Ewithdrawal from them as well would doubtless be quite satisfying to %0D%0A%3Ehim. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%0D%0A%22We should be separate from the WDF - they%27re needed as they%0D%0Aare%2C and there are plenty of other officers who deserve a shot at the%0D%0Atop.  It ought to be separate from the 3WA too%2C and from any%0D%0Acorporation - its own oversight%2C its own sanction%2C everything.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AI have no idea what is in the International Police Accords%2C but given that this is the base idea%2C I doubt that there%27s anything that Clark can do in terms of wrecking their funding%2C and having its own oversight suggests that he can%27t take them to court in Paris%2C although he might be able to tie people up in Zeta Cygni.  %0D%0A%0D%0AFunding is actually the least likely point of vulnerability.  %0D%0A%0D%0ARemember%2C Zoner handed out enough stock to make Juri independently wealthy without blinking.  Gryphon is probably less well-off%2C since his time in the Exile was a bit leaner%2C but he%27s still reasonably supplied with cash - if his pack-rat ways extend to money%2C he probably had to spend several months closing all the bank accounts he established over the course of the Exile.  Even if he didn%27t%2C the bounty %28bounties%3F%29 for bringing in the Butcher of Musashi is impressive seed money.  Kei and Yuri probably have a fair chunk of change as well.  Add GENOM%27s petty cash into the mix%2C and that%27s quite the load of bread.%0D%0A%0D%0AThen consider that these are just the people that are very likely to have contributed.  Redneck%3F  The Autobots%3F  The Sterling family%3F  Possible%2C although not certain.%0D%0A%0D%0APresident Clark might be able to push the IPO out of Federation space%2C and deny them access for anything outside of a %22hot pursuit%22 condition%2C but I doubt that something intended to be proof against external manipulation will be easy to disrupt.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs for coming at Gryphon sideways%2C the last time was a brilliantly crafted psy-op that took several years of preparation%2C and was aimed specifically at the WDF%2C combined with a military strike timed to catch them at their weakest.%0D%0A%0D%0AFrom where I sit%2C it seems more likely that the intent is to have Gryphon out of the way%2C and have the Federation %22collapse from internal stresses.%22%0D%0A%0D%0APeter Eng%0D%0A--%0D%0AInsert humorous comment here.
1|1|0|||1||RE%3A President Clark vs. the IPO|Mercutio||18:25:54|06/18/2013|%3E%22We should be separate from the WDF - they%27re needed as they %0D%0A%3Eare%2C and there are plenty of other officers who deserve a shot at the %0D%0A%3Etop.  It ought to be separate from the 3WA too%2C and from any %0D%0A%3Ecorporation - its own oversight%2C its own sanction%2C everything.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AI recall that quote well%2C but... I mean%2C how do you get people to agree to that%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAs I said%2C MegaZone is a supremely gifted diplomat%2C and Gryphon is an intergalactic hero of wide renown%2C but... well. All I can say is that if I were a policymaker in a star nation%2C and someone came and said %22Hey%2C we%27re starting a pan-galactic law enforcement organization%22 I%27d be very interested%3B but my interest would rapidly wane if it were followed up by %22You will have no oversight or%2C indeed%2C formal input over this organization%2C but you%27ll also have to give it full authority to operate within your borders with law enforcement powers. Oh%2C and the IPO gets to decide how it interprets the law%2C not your own courts.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AThat%27s going to be a hard sell. People who have a personal relationship with Gryphon AND can exercise unilateral control over the levers of state %28like Asriel%29 will be happy to sign on the dotted line. But... I mean%2C I have trouble seeing the same EA that was happy to pass the Psi Act also signing the Accords if they weren%27t going to have input or oversight into the IPO.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut as I said%2C I%27ve got no idea what%27s in those Accords.%0D%0A%0D%0A%28The real-life Interpol%2C I will note%2C is run collectively by the contributing countries. The President of the United States can%27t exercise direct control over it%2C it%27s an independent organization%2C but he can pull their funding%2C he can tell the US representative to it to kick up a fuss%2C he could tell domestic LEO%27s to stop cooperating with it.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%3ERemember%2C Zoner handed out enough stock to make Juri independently %0D%0A%3Ewealthy without blinking.  Gryphon is probably less well-off%2C since %0D%0A%3Ehis time in the Exile was a bit leaner%2C but he%27s still reasonably %0D%0A%3Esupplied with cash - if his pack-rat ways extend to money%2C he probably %0D%0A%3Ehad to spend several months closing all the bank accounts he %0D%0A%3Eestablished over the course of the Exile.  Even if he didn%27t%2C the %0D%0A%3Ebounty %28bounties%3F%29 for bringing in the Butcher of Musashi is %0D%0A%3Eimpressive seed money.  Kei and Yuri probably have a fair chunk of %0D%0A%3Echange as well.  Add GENOM%27s petty cash into the mix%2C and that%27s quite %0D%0A%3Ethe load of bread. %0D%0A%0D%0AOh%2C I don%27t think he can completely defund them. But assuming the IPO is funded by streams coming from multiple sources %28again%2C like Interpol%29 it would probably inconvenience them a bit if the Federation stopped contributing.%0D%0A%0D%0AAlthough he%27d have to get something like that through the assembly%2C one imagines. Politically speaking%2C Bill Clark is likely to not have a real strong mandate %28and good luck getting re-elected%29%2C which means he%27d have to confine his fuckery to things that the Office of the President controls rather than things the Federation Assembly controls.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EPresident Clark might be able to push the IPO out of Federation space%2C %0D%0A%0D%0AWhat I%27m imagining is that he does things like %22discourage%22 Federation-controlled agencies from cooperating with the IPO. He probably can%27t just order them not to do so %28that%27d likely be grounds for impeachment%29 but... well.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EFrom where I sit%2C it seems more likely that the intent is to have %0D%0A%3EGryphon out of the way%2C and have the Federation %22collapse from %0D%0A%3Einternal stresses.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AThis would%2C in my mind%2C qualify as %27coming at Gryphon sideways.%27 Bill Clark%27s current ascension is probably also a carefully crafted conspiracy many years in the making.%0D%0A%0D%0ABasically%2C trying to blow Gryphon and assorted Gryphon-like people up is a mugs game. It never works and just about everyone who has ever tried has ended up dead%2C humiliated%2C or both. If you want him and his buddies out of your way%2C the only thing that%27s EVER even come close to working is kicking his legs out from underneath him. One assumed that if Clark both considers Gryphon an enemy and is at all smart%2C THAT%27S what he%27ll try doing.%0D%0A%0D%0A-Merc%0D%0AKeep Rat
2|2|1|||||RE%3A President Clark vs. the IPO|drakensis||00:55:15|06/19/2013|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-13 AT 00:55 AM (EDT)]%3E%3E%22We should be separate from the WDF - they%27re needed as they %0D%0A%3E%3Eare%2C and there are plenty of other officers who deserve a shot at the %0D%0A%3E%3Etop.  It ought to be separate from the 3WA too%2C and from any %0D%0A%3E%3Ecorporation - its own oversight%2C its own sanction%2C everything.%22 %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EI recall that quote well%2C but... I mean%2C how do you get people to %0D%0A%3Eagree to that%3F %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EAs I said%2C MegaZone is a supremely gifted diplomat%2C and Gryphon is an %0D%0A%3Eintergalactic hero of wide renown%2C but... well. All I can say is that %0D%0A%3Eif I were a policymaker in a star nation%2C and someone came and said %0D%0A%3E%22Hey%2C we%27re starting a pan-galactic law enforcement organization%22 I%27d %0D%0A%3Ebe very interested%3B but my interest would rapidly wane if it were %0D%0A%3Efollowed up by %22You will have no oversight or%2C indeed%2C formal input %0D%0A%3Eover this organization%2C but you%27ll also have to give it full authority %0D%0A%3Eto operate within your borders with law enforcement powers. Oh%2C and %0D%0A%3Ethe IPO gets to decide how it interprets the law%2C not your own %0D%0A%3Ecourts.%22 %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EThat%27s going to be a hard sell. People who have a personal %0D%0A%3Erelationship with Gryphon AND can exercise unilateral control over the %0D%0A%3Elevers of state %28like Asriel%29 will be happy to sign on the dotted %0D%0A%3Eline. But... I mean%2C I have trouble seeing the same EA that was happy %0D%0A%3Eto pass the Psi Act also signing the Accords if they weren%27t going to %0D%0A%3Ehave input or oversight into the IPO. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EBut as I said%2C I%27ve got no idea what%27s in those Accords.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27d presume that the way it was sold was largely on some scenario similar to that which lead to the creation of the Lensmen in the original novels%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat do you do if someone commits a murder%2C takes a ride on a hypership and ends up gods only knows where outside the jurisdiction of your own police%3F What recourse do the Federation law enforcers have if someone commits a crime and goes to hide out in the Gamilon or Romulan Empire where they don%27t have an extradition treaty %28and the Gamilons%2C Romulans%2C whatever may not even consider what was done to be criminal%29%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AWell now you can post the details to the IPO who%2C after due consideration%2A%2C will turn loose the Lensmen to find and if necessary apprehend your perp%27 and hand them over to your judicial system. Quite possibly over the howling protests %28or armed resistance%29 of the local law enforcement if that law enforcement isn%27t a signatory.%0D%0A%0D%0ANow granted many governments will find it frustrating that their PsiCops%2FObsidian order%2FGestapo-equivalent of choice cannot simply turn the IPO loose on some targets just because the neo-hippy-in-charge %28look at his hair%21 the kilt%21%29 happens for some reason to believe that being a non-enslaved psionic and saying nasty things about%2Fto elected officials aren%27t crimes. However it still may be worth it for two reasons%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A1. It%27s that many fewer murderers and rapists that you don%27t wind up having to deniably pay bounty hunters to go after%2C letting you focus your extra-legal efforts on those crimes the IPO won%27t chase.%0D%0A%0D%0A2. If you are a signatory then presumably the IPO can and will just extradite foreign criminals legally from you%2C without them going in and snatching the perp%2A%2A. Something that they%27re probably highly prone to.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%2A %22Is there reasonable cause to believe that this guy should be put on trial for this crime%3F%22 %22Is this actually a crime in our eyes%3F%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%2A%2A Many governments would probably prefer to cut down the number of high-speed chases through their cities by their law enforcement in pursuit of Lensmen with abducted foreign criminals. It%27s very cinematic but also expensive.
4|3|2|||1||RE%3A President Clark vs. the IPO|Mercutio||01:28:49|06/19/2013|%0D%0A%3E...%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EWell now you can post the details to the IPO who%2C after due %0D%0A%3Econsideration%2A%2C will turn loose the Lensmen to find and if necessary %0D%0A%3Eapprehend your perp%27 and hand them over to your judicial system. Quite %0D%0A%3Epossibly over the howling protests %28or armed resistance%29 of the local %0D%0A%3Elaw enforcement if that law enforcement isn%27t a signatory. %0D%0A%0D%0ADo the Lensman actually work that way in UF%3F I mean%2C that seems like a really great way to start a war. In fact%2C if I recall correctly the IPO makes a huge%2C big deal %28publicly%2C at least%29 over not going where they aren%27t wanted%3B when the EA kicked them out they were like %22Well%2C we hope you%27ll reconsider%2C but sure%2C we won%27t operate in Earth Alliance space anymore.%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%28That%27s an agreement honored more in the breach than in actual observance%2C granted%2C but it%27s not like the EA has precisely held up it%27s end of the bargain either.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E2. If you are a signatory then presumably the IPO can and will just %0D%0A%3Eextradite foreign criminals legally from you%2C without them going in %0D%0A%3Eand snatching the perp%2A%2A. Something that they%27re probably highly prone %0D%0A%3Eto. %0D%0A%0D%0AI could just not be a very close reader%2C but it doesn%27t seem like habitually pissing off governments by openly committing acts of war is something the Lensmen DO a lot. Much like regular police%2C they seem like a very reactive organization.%0D%0A%0D%0A-Merc%0D%0AKeep Rat
5|4|4|||||RE%3A President Clark vs. the IPO|Croaker||12:23:13|06/19/2013|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-13 AT 12:23 PM (EDT)]I get the feeling that Ben and Zoner were rather careful about their timing of approaching certain governments%2C and made considerable use of the wave of approval that rose for themselves and the WDF in general in the wake of the victory over Largo. They acquired %28and leveraged%29 some pretty big prestige there%2C and in their efforts to help rebuild afterwards%2C and may well have spent a good chunk of it getting the IPO accords in place.
6|2|1|||1||RE%3A President Clark vs. the IPO|Gryphon||12:23:52|06/19/2013|%3EI recall that quote well%2C but... I mean%2C how do you get people to %0D%0A%3Eagree to that%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AWasn%27t easy.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EI have trouble seeing the same EA that was happy %0D%0A%3Eto pass the Psi Act also signing the Accords if they weren%27t going to %0D%0A%3Ehave input or oversight into the IPO. %0D%0A%0D%0AWasn%27t the same EA%3B almost twenty years earlier.  Nobody involved in the ratification process still in office by 2406%2C when%2C you%27ll notice%2C the Clark administration withdrew the Alliance from the arrangement.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EOh%2C I don%27t think he can completely defund them. But assuming the IPO %0D%0A%3Eis funded by streams coming from multiple sources %28again%2C like %0D%0A%3EInterpol%29 it would probably inconvenience them a bit if the Federation %0D%0A%3Estopped contributing. %0D%0A%0D%0AI got nothin%27 for you here.  You know one of the few things that interest me less than politics%3F  Economics%2C particularly on a large scale.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D
10|3|6|||1||RE%3A President Clark vs. the IPO|McFortner||20:30:31|06/20/2013|%3E%3EOh%2C I don%27t think he can completely defund them. But assuming the IPO %0D%0A%3E%3Eis funded by streams coming from multiple sources %28again%2C like %0D%0A%3E%3EInterpol%29 it would probably inconvenience them a bit if the Federation %0D%0A%3E%3Estopped contributing. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EI got nothin%27 for you here.  You know one of the few things that %0D%0A%3Einterest me less than politics%3F  Economics%2C particularly on a large %0D%0A%3Escale. %0D%0A%0D%0AI would think that the more EA and the Federation remove funding from the IPO%2C the more other states like the Gamalons would contribute because the IPO is still keeping a close eye on them.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22black%22%5DMichael C. Fortner%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22green%22 size%3D-1%5D%22Maxim 37%3A There is no such thing as %22overkill%22.%0D%0AThere is only %22open fire%22 and %22I need to reload%22.%5B%2Ffont%5D
7|2|1|||1||RE%3A President Clark vs. the IPO|Peter Eng||14:01:46|06/19/2013|%3E%0D%0A%3EOh%2C I don%27t think he can completely defund them. But assuming the IPO %0D%0A%3Eis funded by streams coming from multiple sources %28again%2C like %0D%0A%3EInterpol%29 it would probably inconvenience them a bit if the Federation %0D%0A%3Estopped contributing. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C if they set it up right%2C it inconveniences the IPO just enough to make them not operate in the Federation...which%2C big surprise%2C is pretty much what would happen if the Federation withdrew from the IPO Accords.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3E%3EFrom where I sit%2C it seems more likely that the intent is to have %0D%0A%3E%3EGryphon out of the way%2C and have the Federation %22collapse from %0D%0A%3E%3Einternal stresses.%22 %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EThis would%2C in my mind%2C qualify as %27coming at Gryphon sideways.%27 Bill %0D%0A%3EClark%27s current ascension is probably also a carefully crafted %0D%0A%3Econspiracy many years in the making. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C if the Earth Alliance is Gryphon...%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ll allow that Gryph has a certain interest in Earth - as he says in %5Bi%5DShepard%27s 11%2C%5B%2Fi%5D he was born there.  But the forces working to collapse the EA aren%27t really aimed at Gryphon.  They%27re looking to avoid being noticed by him and the IPO%2C but they aren%27t targeting him - or%2C at least%2C they aren%27t targeting him yet.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EBasically%2C trying to blow Gryphon and assorted Gryphon-like people up %0D%0A%3Eis a mugs game. It never works and just about everyone who has ever %0D%0A%3Etried has ended up dead%2C humiliated%2C or both. If you want him and his %0D%0A%3Ebuddies out of your way%2C the only thing that%27s EVER even come close to %0D%0A%3Eworking is kicking his legs out from underneath him. One assumed that %0D%0A%3Eif Clark both considers Gryphon an enemy and is at all smart%2C THAT%27S %0D%0A%3Ewhat he%27ll try doing. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C yes.  But if the plan isn%27t aimed at doing anything except destroying the EA%2C and possibly the Federation%2C why attack Gryph at all%3F  Just arrange things so he can%27t intervene without effectively becoming what his detractors claim he is%2C and he won%27t do a thing.%0D%0A%0D%0AOf course%2C I don%27t know Clark%27s motivations any more than you do.  Maybe all he wants is to be big frog in a small pond.  Maybe it%27s %22Today%2C the EA%3B tomorrow%2C the Federation%3B next month%2C the galaxy.%22  Or%2C maybe he%27s a pawn of one of Surtur%27s pawns%2C and this is all part of the process of burning everything down.%0D%0A%0D%0ARegardless%2C the tools he has to affect the IPO are%2C as far as I can tell%2C no better than %22Go away%2C kid%2C you bother me.%22  If he uses anything more than that%2C he%27s effectively waving a big sign that says%2C %22HI%21  I%27M NOT JUST A EGOMANIACAL POLITICIAN%2C I%27M SOMETHING MORE%21  INVESTIGATE ME%21%22  The %5Bi%5DDanzig%5B%2Fi%5D being destroyed is a bit of a red flag in itself%3B doing any more than that is pushing his luck.%0D%0A%0D%0APeter Eng%0D%0A--%0D%0AInsert humorous comment here.
8|3|7|||||RE%3A President Clark vs. the IPO|Croaker||17:57:41|06/19/2013|%0D%0A%3ERegardless%2C the tools he has to affect the IPO are%2C as far as I can %0D%0A%3Etell%2C no better than %22Go away%2C kid%2C you bother me.%22  If he uses %0D%0A%3Eanything more than that%2C he%27s effectively waving a big sign that says%2C %0D%0A%3E%22HI%21  I%27M NOT JUST A EGOMANIACAL POLITICIAN%2C I%27M SOMETHING MORE%21  %0D%0A%3EINVESTIGATE ME%21%22  The %5Bi%5DDanzig%5B%2Fi%5D being destroyed is a bit of a red %0D%0A%3Eflag in itself%3B doing any more than that is pushing his luck. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EPeter Eng %0D%0A%3E-- %0D%0A%3EInsert humorous comment here. %0D%0A%0D%0AFor all we know - and judging from some of the WOTR stuff this may well be more accurate than I think - Clark is SUPPOSED to be a big sign saying %22Hi%2C I%27m not just an egomaniacal politician%2C investigate me%21%22. %0D%0A%0D%0APalpatine%2C for example%2C may well have his fingers up Clark%27s back pulling strings and going %22Hey%2C Wedge Rats%2C Look%21 A Distraction%21%22.
9|4|8|||1||RE%3A President Clark vs. the IPO|Peter Eng||03:29:19|06/20/2013|%3E%0D%0A%3EFor all we know - and judging from some of the WOTR stuff this may %0D%0A%3Ewell be more accurate than I think - Clark is SUPPOSED to be a big %0D%0A%3Esign saying %22Hi%2C I%27m not just an egomaniacal politician%2C investigate %0D%0A%3Eme%21%22. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EPalpatine%2C for example%2C may well have his fingers up Clark%27s back %0D%0A%3Epulling strings and going %22Hey%2C Wedge Rats%2C Look%21 A Distraction%21%22. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C that%27s true enough.  However%2C most people don%27t make plans that involve potentially dying in order to be a distraction.  I%27m assuming that Clark%27s idea of how the plan works ends with him in power%2C rather than dying%2C rotting in prison%2C or fleeing justice in a warp-capable shuttle.%0D%0A%0D%0APeter Eng%0D%0A--%0D%0AInsert humorous comment here.
3|1|0|||||RE%3A President Clark vs. the IPO|CGWolfgang||01:18:54|06/19/2013|The most practical way would probably be to make the IPO jump through all manner of hurdles to the point where they couldn%27t do their job effectively.  Especially with EA-Psi Corp and IPO pretty much have two separate areas where they can enforce laws.  He could %22encourage%22 Federation member states to enact laws that would limit or end the requirement that they share information or work with the IPO.  %0D%0A%0D%0AOr he could simply force the IPO to file a SNO %28Statement of No Objection%29 if they want to cross into or conduct law inforcement in Federation space -OR- on vessels with Federation registry.  %0D%0A%0D%0AA hot pursuit condition allows you to only go so far.  Chasing Batarian Pirates As they cross from say%2C Zetan controlled space to %7Binsert non affiliated governing body here%7D controlled space all is well%2C at least for a few parsecs.  Chasing Batarian Pirates from Zetan to Sol and crossing into Earth Orbit or actually chasing them onto Earth... well good luck trying to prosecute that.%0D%0A%0D%0AOf course this is all meta interpretation of real life law%2Fjurisdictional issues superimposed on UF.  But hey%2C fuel for the discussion right%3F %3A%29