14||0|3762|0|
0|0|0|||1||The hard part|Gryphon||15:42:01|07/14/2013|of depicting more than one wedding in a series is coming up with enough variation to make it worthwhile showing them%2C while still getting across what they need to get across.   Weddings are a bit like large battles in that regard.%0D%0A%0D%0AThat%2C and the sheer number of characters involved%2C particularly when the people getting married are popular and%2For %28by some standard%29 important.  Even though not everyone who%27s there has to be specifically shown or even mentioned%2C there%27s a distinct measure of crowd control involved behind the scenes.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D
1|1|0|||1||RE%3A The hard part|The Traitor||17:04:03|07/14/2013|The way I%27d do it - and I%27m not for a moment suggesting that this would be the optimal solution - would be to have it as a series of interconnected vignettes with the various guests leading up to the ceremony%2C %5Bi%5Da la%5B%2Fi%5D what you did with First Dates %26 Firefights %28which I still maintain is a Fall Out Boy B-side waiting to happen%29. It%27d give a nice sense of continuity and overarching scope%3B all these people are still living their own lives%2C but the true power comes from them banding together in celebration of love. It%27s central to the UF-verse%27s message that the future is bright and hopeful and%2C more to the point%2C deserves light and hope.%0D%0A%0D%0AFeel free to dismiss these as the rantings of a madwoman%2C but I thought I%27d give you my ideas. %3D%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A---%0D%0A%22Yeah%2C I%27m definitely going to hell%2FBut I%27ll have all the best stories to tell%22 -- Frank Turner%2C The Ballad of Me and My Friends
2|2|1|||1||RE%3A The hard part|Gryphon||18:58:57|07/14/2013|%3EThe way I%27d do it - and I%27m not for a moment suggesting that this %0D%0A%3Ewould be the optimal solution - would be to have it as a series of %0D%0A%3Einterconnected vignettes with the various guests leading up to the %0D%0A%3Eceremony%2C %0D%0A%0D%0AWe%27ve %5Bi%5Dsort%5B%2Fi%5D of done that%2C albeit not quite to the extent that we did it in S5M3.  There%27s also been a substantial helping of %22new character walks into the room%2C looks around%2C says %27you guys can chill out%2C I got this%2C%27%22 which has kept the focus from moving around quite as much as you suggest. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5Da la%5B%2Fi%5D what you did with First Dates %26 Firefights %0D%0A%3E%28which I still maintain is a Fall Out Boy B-side waiting to happen%29. %0D%0A%0D%0AHeh%2C depends on the period.  On %5Bi%5DFrom Under the Cork Tree%5B%2Fi%5D%2C for instance%2C it would%27ve required a long-winded parenthetical subtitle.  %22First Dates and Firefights %28It%27s Probably a Good Idea Not to Bring Your Mom Along For Either One%29%22%2C for example.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D
3|1|0|||1||RE%3A The hard part|Mercutio||19:08:15|07/14/2013|Well%2C if you%27re soliciting suggestions%2C which I can only assume you are since you%27re musing about this publicly on an open forum with an oh-so-tempting reply button%2C I have some thoughts...%0D%0A%0D%0AYou largely can ignore the trials and travails of getting the whole shindig organized and set up unless it presents something significantly differently than what we saw in Clarion Call. We%27ve done all that and don%27t really need to see it again so soon. In particular%2C Utena and Corwin%27s pre-wedding jitters probably don%27t need to be re-visited. I would maybe focus on two things...%0D%0A%0D%0A1%29 What are the specific hurdles of getting this thing set up on Cephiro that weren%27t already covered in Clarion Call%3F Mine that for content. If it%27s just %22this is the same problem we had on B6%2C merely transplanted to Cephiro%22 it probably isn%27t worth showing%2C but if it%27s %22this is an issue that is unique to the venue%22 than there is value in putting it on-screen.%0D%0A%0D%0A2%29 The ceremony and reception.%0D%0A%0D%0ANumber two is the big one. We didn%27t GET to the actual ceremony and post-ceremony party in Clarion Call. That will be new and exciting%2C so roll with that more than the pre-wedding logistics. For that matter%2C if it were me writing this %28disclaimer%3A I am in no way equipped to write this%29 I might consider not even bothering with a run-up. We%27ve seen all that before. I%27d consider making the first two paragraphs the exchange of vows%2C pure in media res%2C and then roll from there into the rest of the ceremony and the reception.%0D%0A%0D%0AI would also submit that it%27s totally okay to NOT show things. You make an explicit analogy to large battles. Well%2C there was a large battle in First Dates and Firefights... and you didn%27t show most of it. Hell%2C the fight in orbit around Tau Ceti was arguably the most important part of it%2C and it barely figured in. And that was okay%21 It worked great. We didn%27t NEED another five thousand or so words about starships blowing up.%0D%0A%0D%0ASo don%27t be afraid to leave scenes on the cutting room floor. That%27s what Featured Documents are for. People who want to know how the orbital battle at Tau Ceti went can consult Utena%27s after-action report. %28There%27s an argument to be made that Featured Documents of that sort should be linked to from the piece of work they%27re relevant to%2C but that%27s another discussion.%29 It%27s totally okay for stuff to just NOT be shown%2C especially if they feel like they%27re bloated and unnecessary or very %22same-y.%22 The crowd control that%27s taking place behind the scenes can remain there unless it%27s something actually%2C you know%2C interesting.%0D%0A%0D%0A-Merc%0D%0AKeep Rat
4|2|3|||1||RE%3A The hard part|Gryphon||19:37:52|07/14/2013|%3EWell%2C if you%27re soliciting suggestions%2C which I can only assume you %0D%0A%3Eare since you%27re musing about this publicly on an open forum with an %0D%0A%3Eoh-so-tempting reply button%2C I have some thoughts... %0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C not really%2C since it%27s mostly either finished or plotted by now%3B I was more going for %22providing a look into the process%22.  But that%27s fine%21%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EIn particular%2C %0D%0A%3EUtena and Corwin%27s pre-wedding jitters probably don%27t need to be %0D%0A%3Ere-visited.%0D%0A%0D%0AIndeed%2C I suspect even %5Bi%5Dthey%5B%2Fi%5D would agree with that%2C although%2C for the record%2C Corwin didn%27t really have any.  Or if he did%2C they happened in the story before %5Bi%5DClarion%5B%2Fi%5D.  He%27s not really up that tree in %5Bi%5DOut of the Blue%5B%2Fi%5D because of wedding jitters%2C though.  He%27s up there because he%27s preoccupied with a peculiar feeling of doom %28in the older %22%5Bi%5Dsomething%5B%2Fi%5D is %5Bi%5Dhappening%5B%2Fi%5D%22 sense%29.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3ENumber two is the big one. We didn%27t GET to the actual ceremony and %0D%0A%3Epost-ceremony party in Clarion Call. That will be new and exciting%2C so %0D%0A%3Eroll with that more than the pre-wedding logistics. For that matter%2C %0D%0A%3Eif it were me writing this %28disclaimer%3A I am in no way equipped to %0D%0A%3Ewrite this%29 I might consider not even bothering with a run-up.%0D%0A%0D%0AWell %28as you will hopefully see within the next... hmm%2C I don%27t want to jinx myself... The Next While%29%2C we did and we didn%27t.  There%27s a fairly detailed chronicle of the couple of days before the wedding in %5Bi%5DTry%2C Try Again%5B%2Fi%5D%2C but it%27s mostly not to do with logistics per se%3B it%27s because%2C in practical terms%2C that%27s when the party started. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bdiv style%3D%22background-color%3A%23DCDCDC%3Bpadding%3A5%22%5D%5Bfont face%3D%22Courier%22 color%3D%22black%22%5D%5Bpre%5D        %22I have to say%2C%22 %26l%3BREDACTED%26r%3B teased%2C %22you don%27t really present the%0D%0Aappearance of a man under pressure.%22%0D%0A        %22Well%2C yeah%2C%22 Corwin agreed.  %22The thing is%2C Utena and me%2C we%0D%0Aalready -did- most of the -hard- parts.  In reverse order%2C even.%22  He%0D%0Agrinned.  %22That%27s kind of been a theme for us right along.%22%5B%2Fpre%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D%5B%2Fdiv%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EIt%27s totally okay for stuff to %0D%0A%3Ejust NOT be shown%2C especially if they feel like they%27re bloated and %0D%0A%3Eunnecessary or very %22same-y.%22 The crowd control that%27s taking place %0D%0A%3Ebehind the scenes can remain there unless it%27s something actually%2C you %0D%0A%3Eknow%2C interesting. %0D%0A%0D%0AOh%2C I know%2C and I%27m not planning on showing most of that.  A little%2C to give a flavor for what the people responsible are up against%2C but it%27s far from exhaustive.  What I was getting at above was that%2C the way my process works%2C most of it still has to %5Bi%5Dhappen%5B%2Fi%5D somewhere in my head%2C and that%27s a bit fatiguing even if it doesn%27t come out into the readers%27 field of view.  It%27s like not being able to remember the second verse of a song without singing the first verse in your head first.  I can%27t be the only one that happens to.  Can I%3F  Never mind.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D
5|3|4|||1||RE%3A The hard part|Mercutio||19:53:17|07/14/2013|%0D%0A%3EWhat I was getting at above was that%2C the %0D%0A%3Eway my process works%2C most of it still has to %5Bi%5Dhappen%5B%2Fi%5D somewhere %0D%0A%3Ein my head%2C and that%27s a bit fatiguing even if it doesn%27t come out %0D%0A%3Einto the readers%27 field of view.  It%27s like not being able to remember %0D%0A%3Ethe second verse of a song without singing the first verse in your %0D%0A%3Ehead first.  I can%27t be the only one that happens to.  Can I%3F  Never %0D%0A%3Emind. %0D%0A%0D%0AI can actually think of at least one high-profile%28ish%29 writer whose mind works the same way%3B Ben Aaronovitch. I had the pleasure to sit in on a Q%26A with him a couple years back%2C and he considers it essential to the establishment of verisimilitude that everything needs to happen%2C somewhere%2C in a way that he knows about and drives%2C in order for his stuff to work to his satisfaction. In some cases he will actual write fifty or sixty pages of stuff he -has no intention- of ever submitting to his publisher just so he can work out exactly what%27s going on off-screen to justify events happening on-screen.%0D%0A%0D%0ASo%2C y%27know. Take that for what it%27s worth.%0D%0A%0D%0A-Merc%0D%0AKeep Rat
6|1|0|||||RE%3A The hard part|BeardedFerret||21:25:39|07/14/2013|I%27d go for a totally different approach. Do the whole movement in second person%2C from the perspective of a minor character who doesn%27t really know anyone. 
7|2|6|||1||RE%3A The hard part|Gryphon||21:28:41|07/14/2013|%3EI%27d go for a totally different approach. Do the whole movement in %0D%0A%3Esecond person%2C from the perspective of a minor character who doesn%27t %0D%0A%3Ereally know anyone. %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DSecond%5B%2Fi%5D person%3F  The Crappy Internet Porn voice%3F  I%27m going to have to decline. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D
8|3|7|||||RE%3A The hard part|BeardedFerret||21:35:12|07/14/2013|%3E%3EI%27d go for a totally different approach. Do the whole movement in %0D%0A%3E%3Esecond person%2C from the perspective of a minor character who doesn%27t %0D%0A%3E%3Ereally know anyone. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5DSecond%5B%2Fi%5D person%3F  The Crappy Internet Porn voice%3F  I%27m going to %0D%0A%3Ehave to decline. %3A%29 %0D%0A%0D%0AThe... What%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat porn have you been watching%3F I was thinking Sherlock Holmes. %0D%0A
9|4|8|||1||RE%3A The hard part|Gryphon||22:14:37|07/14/2013|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jul-14-13 AT 10:15 PM (EDT)]%3E%3E%5Bi%5DSecond%5B%2Fi%5D person%3F  The Crappy Internet Porn voice%3F  I%27m going to %0D%0A%3E%3Ehave to decline. %3A%29 %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EThe... What%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ASecond person - you did this%2C you did that%2C you experienced the other.  The only things I%27ve ever seen written primarily in the second person are particularly awful Internet porn stories and Charles Stross%27s %5Bi%5DHalting State%5B%2Fi%5D%2C which is like Internet porn without the porn. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0AI don%27t recall a Sherlock Holmes story written in that format%2C but then I haven%27t read the canon in a while.  Most Holmes stories are in the first person%2C but mainly telling about the actions of a third party %28as opposed to%2C say%2C Raymond Chandler%27s Philip Marlowe novels%2C which are in the first person and mainly concerned with the narrating character%27s own doings%29.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A%5Bsmall%5Dseriously%2C Charley%2C I%27m a fan%2C but WTF was that supposed to be%3F%5B%2Fsmall%5D%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D
10|5|9|||||RE%3A The hard part|BeardedFerret||22:58:55|07/14/2013|%3E%3E%3E%5Bi%5DSecond%5B%2Fi%5D person%3F  The Crappy Internet Porn voice%3F  I%27m going to %0D%0A%3E%3E%3Ehave to decline. %3A%29 %0D%0A%3E%3E%0D%0A%3E%3EThe... What%3F%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3ESecond person - you did this%2C you did that%2C you experienced the other. %0D%0A%3E The only things I%27ve ever seen written primarily in the second person %0D%0A%3Eare particularly awful Internet porn stories and Charles Stross%27s %0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5DHalting State%5B%2Fi%5D%2C which is like Internet porn without the porn. %3A%29 %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EI don%27t recall a Sherlock Holmes story written in that format%2C but %0D%0A%3Ethen I haven%27t read the canon in a while.  Most Holmes stories are in %0D%0A%3Ethe first person%2C but mainly telling about the actions of a third %0D%0A%3Eparty %28as opposed to%2C say%2C Raymond Chandler%27s Philip Marlowe novels%2C %0D%0A%3Ewhich are in the first person and mainly concerned with the narrating %0D%0A%3Echaracter%27s own doings%29. %0D%0A%0D%0AAh. There%27s the misunderstanding%2C then - I was given to understand that second person referred to fixed third person from the perspective of someone other than the protagonist - Watson observing Holmes%2C for example. A quick rifle through Wikipedia shows me that I - and by extension%2C my grade 4 teacher - were wrong about that. %0D%0A%0D%0AHaving learned that%2C the only use I%27d have for second person would be in text adventures. I was actually suggesting a fixed third person account.
11|6|10|||1||RE%3A The hard part|Terminus Est||00:28:39|07/15/2013|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-13 AT 00:29 AM (EDT)]It works well enough for text adventures %28see also%3A most MU%2A type games%29%2C but it gets old %5Bi%5Dfast%5B%2Fi%5D in any other setting that I%27ve seen.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnother alternative %28and what I suspected you meant to start with%2C though my suspicion has been proven wrong%29 would be %5Bi%5Dfirst%5B%2Fi%5D person from a minor%2Fthrowaway%2Fnew character.  But since it%27s already in the works%2Fnear completion in third person %28which I prefer anyway both as a writer and reader%29%2C this is really just pissing in the wind on my part.
12|7|11|||||RE%3A The hard part|BeardedFerret||02:04:01|07/15/2013|First person%27s an interesting one - it worked really well in Blades.
13|5|9|||1||RE%3A The hard part|Mercutio||02:08:07|07/15/2013| %0D%0A%3Eseriously%2C Charley%2C I%27m a fan%2C but WTF was that supposed to %0D%0A%3Ebe%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AFun fact%3A his publishers were unsure enough about Halting State that%2C even with a finished manuscript in hand%2C they would only buy it if it were part of a two-book contract%2C with the second book being a space opera. %28Read%3A safe and guaranteed profitable.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A-Merc%0D%0AKeep Rat
14|5|9|||||RE%3A The hard part|Senji||05:09:49|07/15/2013|%3ESecond person - you did this%2C you did that%2C you experienced the other. %0D%0A%3E The only things I%27ve ever seen written primarily in the second person %0D%0A%3Eare particularly awful Internet porn stories and Charles Stross%27s %0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5DHalting State%5B%2Fi%5D%2C which is like Internet porn without the porn. %3A%29 %0D%0A%0D%0A Ted Chiang%27s novella %5Bi%5DStory of Your Life%5B%2Fi%5D has significant parts in second person%2C and unusually works.  But that is part of the central conceit of the story %3A-%29%0D%0A%0D%0AS.