58||0|5444|0| 0|0|0|||1||And then%2C one day...|Gryphon||20:01:52|08/01/2014|... you wake up after a week of mild illness and realize that the people who told you you were Doing It Wrong in 2003 were probably right%2C but that to fix it now you would have to bin 2.33 megabytes of text and start 2410 completely over.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 1|1|0|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Nova Floresca||00:47:01|08/02/2014|That seems like an ugly conclusion to come to. What exactly needs binning%2C and%2For how do you go about working around it%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This is probably a stupid question%2C but . . .%22 3|2|1|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Gryphon||02:33:38|08/02/2014|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-14 AT 02:35 AM (EDT)]FAIR WARNING%3A I am violating the %5Bi%5Dcrap%5B%2Fi%5D out of the First Commandment for Writers %28%22Thou shalt make it look easy%22%29 here. Don%27t keep reading if you find that disturbing.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%3E... you wake up after a week of mild illness and realize that the %0D%0A%3E%3Epeople who told you you were Doing It Wrong in 2003 were probably %0D%0A%3E%3Eright%2C but that to fix it now you would have to bin 2.33 megabytes of %0D%0A%3E%3Etext and start 2410 completely over. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EThat seems like an ugly conclusion to come to.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt is%2C indeed%2C %5Bi%5Dmighty%5B%2Fi%5D ugly.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EWhat exactly needs binning%0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C it depends on how radical the surgery ended up being. As a thought experiment%2C there are a few different levels I could take the proceedings to%2C if I were to initiate them at all. The figure I named in the original post is all of Symphony No. 5 to date plus the last story of Symphony No. 4. Closer examination shows that that%27s not really a very accurate estimate%2C though - partly because the damage would extend to some pieces outside the Symphonies%2C but also partly because a fair bit of the affected material would be salvageable in one form or another. So it wouldn%27t be binning the whole Symphony so much as binning big pieces of it and revising the living shit out of the rest.%0D%0A%0D%0AOn the other hand%2C if I were to be more aggressive about it%2C I could go back to the %5Bi%5Dbeginning%5B%2Fi%5D of Symphony No. 4 and start %5Bi%5Dthere%5B%2Fi%5D%2C with a revamped version of %5Bi%5DPage of Swords%5B%2Fi%5D%3B or even move %5Bi%5DPage%5B%2Fi%5D back in time to 2407 and make it the seventh and final movement of Symphony No. 3.%0D%0A%0D%0AIf I wanted to be %5Bi%5Dinsanely%5B%2Fi%5D aggressive about it%2C %5Bi%5DPage%5B%2Fi%5D would be the %5Bi%5Dsecond%5B%2Fi%5D movement of Symphony No. 3 and a lot of the key events of the summers of 2406 and 2409 would end up conflated%2C but that would be getting pretty far afield of the exercise%27s original purpose.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd then there is what I like to think of as the Hideaki Anno approach%2C where I take the first 16 paragraphs of S1M1%2C throw the rest out the window%2C shotgun a bottle of dextromethorphan-based cough syrup %28NOT the multisymptom kind%2C that%27s a great way to OD on acetaminophen and damage your liver%29%2C and %5Bi%5Dsee what happens.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Eand%2For how do you go about working around it%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AHell if I know right at this moment%2C but that is realistically what I%27m going to have to do. I mean%2C the options outlined above%2C even the least radical one%2C are %5Bi%5Dcrazy%5B%2Fi%5D%2C but I mention them for the sake of clearer illumination as to what I%27m up against here. The last time I found myself having to push this hard to work through thickets of malfunctioning old plotlines%2C I was working on the episode of %5Bi%5DHopelessly Lost%5B%2Fi%5D that ended up being scrapped in favor of the first issue of %5Bi%5DThe Iron Age%5B%2Fi%5D. I%27d... rather not do that to a product so %5Bi%5Dfantastically%5B%2Fi%5D much less self-contained than HL. More to the point%2C I doubt I %5Bi%5Dcould%5B%2Fi%5D. I%27m old now and I get tired%2C and if I attempted any of those things%2C I%27m pretty sure I%27d be on my own.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 4|3|3|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Nova Floresca||03:01:49|08/02/2014|Supreme apologies in advance if I%27m overstepping bounds%2C but what about using the unfinished portion of Symphony 3 to lay in whatever new plotlines you%27d need to put the narrative right%3F And possibly pull the Diqiu stuff out of line and make it its own subsection%3F It%27s very good material%2C but it doesn%27t really seem to directly be part of Symphony 5. Either way%2C even if you don%27t %22fix%22 anything%2C it%27s still damn good writing.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This is probably a stupid question%2C but . . .%22 5|4|4|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Gryphon||03:15:23|08/02/2014|%3ESupreme apologies in advance if I%27m overstepping bounds%2C but what %0D%0A%3Eabout using the unfinished portion of Symphony 3 to lay in whatever %0D%0A%3Enew plotlines you%27d need to put the narrative right%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s not really a question of needing to add some retroactive new plotlines %28that would just make everything even messier%29 as get rid of some old ones. Most notably%2C and the one that%27s been giving me the actual headache%3A Way the hell back in 2003%2C there were people who got %5Bi%5Dso annoyed%5B%2Fi%5D with the way Symphony No. 4%27s coda %28%5Bi%5DVortigern%27s Lake 2%5B%2Fi%5D%29 played out that they %2Fragequit the Symphony readership. Really. That happened. %28Go look at the discussion thread for the annotations to %5Bi%5DKnights III%5B%2Fi%5D - it all kicked off in there for whatever reason.%29%0D%0A%0D%0AAt the time I thought they were full of noise%2C and I still think the most vocal of them were kind of being bitchy shits about it%2C but lately I am starting to suspect%2C pretty much in spite of myself%2C that they might also have been right. I didn%27t think so at the %5Bi%5Dtime%5B%2Fi%5D - I haven%27t spent the last 11 years %5Bi%5Ddeliberately%5B%2Fi%5D chasing a mirage%2C and at the time I was hugely relieved that %28so I thought%29 the characters had figured out how to get out of the hole the source plot dug for them%2C but now... I dunno. I haven%27t come to a conclusion yet%2C but just the fact that I%27m having to seriously think about it troubles me%2C because%2C like I said%2C that%27s how TIA happened.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EAnd possibly pull %0D%0A%3Ethe Diqiu stuff out of line and make it its own subsection%3F It%27s very %0D%0A%3Egood material%2C but it doesn%27t really seem to directly be part of %0D%0A%3ESymphony 5. Either way%2C even if you don%27t %22fix%22 anything%2C it%27s still %0D%0A%3Edamn good writing.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe %5Bi%5DD%26igrave%3Bqi%26uacute%3B Suite%5B%2Fi%5D is not in itself a problem%2C and the reason it doesn%27t feel much like it%27s part of Symphony 5 yet is because it hasn%27t reached the end%3B but it would be pretty dramatically orphaned by the deletion of Utena and Corwin getting married%2C obviously%2C so whatever of it survived probably %5Bi%5Dwould%5B%2Fi%5D end up being its own separate parallel thing. %28It%27d be what Corwin did with himself after bailing out of the Symphony cast because it was too painful to stay there%2C most likely. Decamp to a pocket world where he Knows People and try to reinvent himself as someone who isn%27t in love with somebody else%27s husband.%29%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s like - you ever build a really complicated LEGO kit%2C and you get to a point where every time you stick on a piece%2C the pressure you have to apply to do it makes another one you already placed come off%3F It%27s like that.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 6|5|5|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Nova Floresca||03:33:46|08/02/2014|%3EIt%27s like - you ever build a really complicated LEGO kit%2C and you get %0D%0A%3Eto a point where every time you stick on a piece%2C the pressure you %0D%0A%3Ehave to apply to do it makes another one you already placed come off%3F %0D%0A%3EIt%27s like that. %0D%0A%0D%0AGotcha. Hopefully the pieces of this one won%27t exit the structure at Warp 12%2C as Legos seem to do when I touch them. I should probably apologize further%2C as I was digging in to the problem laid out here to avoid looking at the structurally-unstable mess of a story I%27ve been working on.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This is probably a stupid question%2C but . . .%22 7|6|6|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Gryphon||03:40:55|08/02/2014|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-14 AT 03:42 AM (EDT)]%3EI should probably %0D%0A%3Eapologize further%2C as I was digging in to the problem laid out here to %0D%0A%3Eavoid looking at the structurally-unstable mess of a story I%27ve been %0D%0A%3Eworking on. %0D%0A%0D%0ANah%2C it%27s fine%2C I mean%2C I wouldn%27t have bitched about it in public if I didn%27t want to discuss it. My standard operating procedure has usually been to keep this kind of thing behind the door%2C but%2C I dunno%2C I felt confessional tonight. Like I said%2C it violates one of the old cardinal rules%2C but then%2C I%27ve always thought %22never let them see you sweat%22 was a weird saying. Sweating is an involuntary bodily function. You can%27t %5Bi%5Dnot do it%5B%2Fi%5D.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnyway%2C that%27s what I%27m up against today%3A a mind made ruminative and self-critical by the tail end of a mysterious illness%2C and a plotting conundrum so fierce and unpalatable that this week%27s monumentally unsatisfactory episode of %5Bi%5DThe Legend of Korra%5B%2Fi%5D was a comparatively pleasant diversion. At least that was somebody %5Bi%5Delse%27s%5B%2Fi%5D inability to stop doing the same thing over and over again in hopes of a different result%2C and not my own.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A%5Bfont size%3D%221%22%5DAlthough it is kind of %5Bi%5Dalso%5B%2Fi%5D my own%2C since like a sucker I keep believing they%27re really going to let her kick the football this time%2C %5Bi%5Devery time.%5B%2Fi%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 8|7|7|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Nova Floresca||03:51:26|08/02/2014|Well if I can be of help in any way%2C please feel free to ask.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This is probably a stupid question%2C but . . .%22 9|5|5|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Matrix Dragon||05:56:16|08/02/2014|%3EThe %5Bi%5DD%C3%ACqi%C3%BA Suite%5B%2Fi%5D is not in itself a problem%2C and %0D%0A%3Ethe reason it doesn%27t feel much like it%27s part of Symphony 5 yet is %0D%0A%3Ebecause it hasn%27t reached the end%3B but it would be pretty dramatically %0D%0A%3Eorphaned by the deletion of Utena and Corwin getting married%2C %0D%0A%3Eobviously%2C so whatever of it survived probably %5Bi%5Dwould%5B%2Fi%5D end up %0D%0A%3Ebeing its own separate parallel thing. %28It%27d be what Corwin did with %0D%0A%3Ehimself after bailing out of the Symphony cast because it was too %0D%0A%3Epainful to stay there%2C most likely. Decamp to a pocket world where he %0D%0A%3EKnows People and try to reinvent himself as someone who isn%27t in love %0D%0A%3Ewith somebody else%27s husband.%29 %0D%0A%0D%0A... Gotta be honest here%2C not really a fan of this idea overall. But then%2C I still like the end to Symphony 4.%0D%0A%0D%0AMatrix Dragon%2C J. Random Nutter 11|6|9|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|VoidRandom||06:51:18|08/02/2014|%3E... Gotta be honest here%2C not really a fan of this idea overall. But %0D%0A%3Ethen%2C I still like the end to Symphony 4. %0D%0A%0D%0AI have a more detailed post swirling around in my head%2C but as time is short I%27ll start by agreeing with this and note that that this idea would be against type for both the characters and %28I think%29 you%2C Chief.%0D%0A%0D%0A-VR%0D%0A%5Bfont size%3D%222%22%5D%5Blink%3A%2Fwww.salon.com%2F2013%2F03%2F29%2Fmost_contemporary_literary_fiction_is_terrible%2F %7C Most Contemporary Literary Fiction is Terrible%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%22They copied all they could follow%2C but they couldn%27t copy my mind%2C%0D%0AAnd I left %27em sweating and stealing a year and a half behind.%22 12|7|11|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Gryphon||09:14:41|08/02/2014|%3E%3E... Gotta be honest here%2C not really a fan of this idea overall. But %0D%0A%3E%3Ethen%2C I still like the end to Symphony 4. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EI have a more detailed post swirling around in my head%2C but as time is %0D%0A%3Eshort I%27ll start by agreeing with this and note that that this idea %0D%0A%3Ewould be against type for both the characters and %28I think%29 you%2C %0D%0A%3EChief. %0D%0A%0D%0AMuch of me still agrees%21 But not quite all%2C which is where my angst is coming from.%0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C that and the fact that I can%27t sleep very well when I%27m ill%2C and it has a cumulative fucking-up-my-head effect. If I ever get a full night%27s sleep again%2C I%27ll probably wake up the next morning and go%2C %22Who the hell posted this%3F%22 %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 13|8|12|||||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|JFerio||11:10:11|08/02/2014|%3E%3E%3E... Gotta be honest here%2C not really a fan of this idea overall. But %0D%0A%3E%3E%3Ethen%2C I still like the end to Symphony 4. %0D%0A%3E%3E%0D%0A%3E%3EI have a more detailed post swirling around in my head%2C but as time is %0D%0A%3E%3Eshort I%27ll start by agreeing with this and note that that this idea %0D%0A%3E%3Ewould be against type for both the characters and %28I think%29 you%2C %0D%0A%3E%3EChief. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EMuch of me still agrees%21 But not quite all%2C which is where my angst %0D%0A%3Eis coming from. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EWell%2C that and the fact that I can%27t sleep very well when I%27m ill%2C and %0D%0A%3Eit has a cumulative fucking-up-my-head effect. If I ever get a full %0D%0A%3Enight%27s sleep again%2C I%27ll probably wake up the next morning and go%2C %0D%0A%3E%22Who the hell posted this%3F%22 %3A%29 %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%0D%0AMaybe it would be best to write down some of the ideas%2C but not to do anything further with them until after you%27ve finally managed to get that full night%27s sleep%3F If nothing else%2C it might spawn further material elsewhere. A good artist%2C whether writer or otherwise%2C never ever throws away ideas if they can help it. It%27s just a matter of WHEN and HOW it gets used. 14|9|13|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Gryphon||16:40:00|08/02/2014|%3EMaybe it would be best to write down some of the ideas%2C but not to do %0D%0A%3Eanything further with them until after you%27ve finally managed to get %0D%0A%3Ethat full night%27s sleep%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat I ended up doing %28in lieu of going back to sleep%29 was going back and reacquainting myself with the bits immediately %5Bi%5Dbefore%5B%2Fi%5D the point that made half a dozen people %2Fragequit%2C to refresh my memory of %5Bi%5Dwhy%5B%2Fi%5D the d%26eacute%3Bnouement of Symphony No. 4 played out that way. It wasn%27t as straightforward as those people thought it was. It%27s been long enough now that I sometimes drift toward losing sight of that fact myself%2C at which point their arguments start looking like they had more weight.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn daylight%2C I find that I%27m still a bit intrigued by the notion of how it would have played out if I%27d done things differently%2C but not to the point where I want to revise the main continuity accordingly. Actually%2C that%27s not well-phrased. I didn%27t %5Bi%5Dwant%5B%2Fi%5D to %5Bi%5Danyway%5B%2Fi%5D. But there are times when I feel like I probably %5Bi%5Dshould%5B%2Fi%5D%2C and that%27s kind of scary given what a giant %28and probably unpopular%29 job it would be.%0D%0A%0D%0AAlso%2C and related only tangentially%2C in rereading %5Bi%5DVortigern%27s 2%5B%2Fi%5D I ran across a passage that I have to try and keep in mind%2C in a slightly different context%2C as I work on S5DS05%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bpre%5D It was the kind of stuff they used to do before%2C and it came%0D%0Aas something of a relief that they could still do it%2C still enjoy it%2C%0D%0Ajust as much now as before the universe changed. It reassured them%0D%0Athat they were still who they were%2C that they were still important to%0D%0Aeach other in the same ways as before.%0D%0A They%27d awakened with an odd%2C unspoken concern that the new%0D%0Adimension to their relationship would eclipse the rest of it%2C and were%0D%0Agreatly relieved to learn that it hadn%27t. Everything balanced. They%0D%0Awere who they%27d always been%2C just now without the occasional awkward%0D%0Amoments%2C withdrawn hands%2C and quiet pains.%0D%0A They were%2C in short%2C -more-%2C not less%2C than they%27d been%0D%0Abefore.%5B%2Fpre%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AI probably wouldn%27t have refreshed that neural trace today if I hadn%27t had my black dog last night%2C so hey%2C every cloud and all that.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 15|6|9|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|JeanneHedge||18:44:35|08/02/2014|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-14 AT 06:48 PM (EDT)]%3E... Gotta be honest here%2C not really a fan of this idea overall. But %0D%0A%3Ethen%2C I still like the end to Symphony 4. %0D%0A%0D%0AI thought the end of Symphony 4 was the end of the Symphony because everything seemed to be wrapped up with a bow on. I think I even posted a question asking about that at the time.%0D%0A%0D%0Aeta - That doesn%27t help with the author%27s perceived problems now though. As much as I%27ve disagreed %28public and not%29 with some storyline%2Fwriting choices%2C I%27d really hate to see all this work dumped and not salvagable in some way.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AJeanne%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Btable border%3D%220%22 cellspacing%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%220%22 width%3D%2280%25%22%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%221%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd align%3D%22center%22 width%3D%2210%25%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.jhedge.com%2Fmisc%2Foldowl.jpg%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btd valign%3Dtop%5D%5Bfont size%3D2%5D%5Bb%5DJeanne Hedge%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0A%5Bfont size%3D1%5D%5Blink%3Awww.jhedge.com%7Chttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.jhedge.com%5D%0D%0A1st Courier of the Heavenly Prophets for %5Bi%5D%5Blink%3Awww.kickstarter.com%2Fprojects%2F326055564%2Ftianxia-blood-silk-and-jade%7CTianxia%5D%0D%0A%22Never give up%2C never surrender%21%22%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%5B%2Fi%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%221%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D 16|7|15|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Gryphon||18:48:11|08/02/2014|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-14 AT 06:48 PM (EDT)]%3E%3E... Gotta be honest here%2C not really a fan of this idea overall. But %0D%0A%3E%3Ethen%2C I still like the end to Symphony 4. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EI thought the end of Symphony 4 was the end of the Symphony because %0D%0A%3Eeverything seemed to be wrapped up with a bow on. I think I even %0D%0A%3Eposted a question asking about that at the time. %0D%0A%0D%0AWell... maybe it should%27ve been%2C really. What we know as Symphony No. 5 would still be happening%2C and still be getting told%2C but it%27d be labeled differently%2C and that might be helping with the %22why have you wandered off to Cartoon China%2C what is going on%22 problem some folks seem to be having. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 17|8|16|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|JeanneHedge||18:55:27|08/02/2014|%3EWell... maybe it should%27ve been%2C really. What we know as Symphony No. %0D%0A%3E5 would still be happening%2C and still be getting told%2C but it%27d be %0D%0A%3Elabeled differently%2C and that might be helping with the %22why have you %0D%0A%3Ewandered off to Cartoon China%2C what is going on%22 problem some folks %0D%0A%3Eseem to be having. %3A%29 %0D%0A%0D%0AGiven about 10 seconds thought%2C maybe going alt-universe with S5 might be the trick to salvage S5%3F The Norse trickster god created an alt-U populated by alt versions of everyone as a New Year%27s greeting%2C and we%27ve been following the alts%3F Meanwhile%2C in the %2Anon-alt%2A universe%2C the revisions take place %28I didn%27t say it was a good idea - results of 10 seconds thought usually aren%27t%29%0D%0A%0D%0AJeanne%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Btable border%3D%220%22 cellspacing%3D%220%22 cellpadding%3D%220%22 width%3D%2280%25%22%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%221%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd align%3D%22center%22 width%3D%2210%25%22%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.jhedge.com%2Fmisc%2Foldowl.jpg%5B%2Ftd%5D%5Btd valign%3Dtop%5D%5Bfont size%3D2%5D%5Bb%5DJeanne Hedge%5B%2Fb%5D%5Bbr%5D%5Bfont size%3D1%5D%5Blink%3Awww.jhedge.com%7Chttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.jhedge.com%5D%5Bbr%5D1st Courier of the Heavenly Prophets for %5Bi%5D%5Blink%3Awww.kickstarter.com%2Fprojects%2F326055564%2Ftianxia-blood-silk-and-jade%7CTianxia%5D%5Bbr%5D%22Never give up%2C never surrender%21%22%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%5B%2Fi%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5Btr%5D%5Btd colspan%3D%222%22%5D%5Bhr size%3D%221%22 noshade%5D%5B%2Ftd%5D%5B%2Ftr%5D%5B%2Ftable%5D 18|9|17|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Gryphon||19:04:11|08/02/2014|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-14 AT 07:04 PM (EDT)]%3E%3EWell... maybe it should%27ve been%2C really. What we know as Symphony No. %0D%0A%3E%3E5 would still be happening%2C and still be getting told%2C but it%27d be %0D%0A%3E%3Elabeled differently%2C and that might be helping with the %22why have you %0D%0A%3E%3Ewandered off to Cartoon China%2C what is going on%22 problem some folks %0D%0A%3E%3Eseem to be having. %3A%29 %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EGiven about 10 seconds thought%2C maybe going alt-universe with S5 might %0D%0A%3Ebe the trick to salvage S5%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AOh%2C I%27m not talking about banishing it from the continuity%2C just thinking that it%27s possible that it should%27ve been branded differently. Calling it %5Bi%5DThe Order of the Rose%5B%2Fi%5D or %5Bi%5DThe White Rose Chronicle%5B%2Fi%5D or something%2C so as to more clearly signal that it%27s a%29 about the Duelists%2C Cephiro%2C et cetera but b%29 differently structured and themed from the four Symphonies.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 19|10|18|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|VoidRandom||21:36:32|08/02/2014|%3EOh%2C I%27m not talking about banishing it from the continuity%2C just %0D%0A%3Ethinking that it%27s possible that it should%27ve been branded %0D%0A%3Edifferently. Calling it %5Bi%5DThe Order of the Rose%5B%2Fi%5D or %5Bi%5DThe White %0D%0A%3ERose Chronicle%5B%2Fi%5D or something%2C so as to more clearly signal that %0D%0A%3Eit%27s a%29 about the Duelists%2C Cephiro%2C et cetera but b%29 differently %0D%0A%3Estructured and themed from the four Symphonies. %0D%0A%0D%0AI like it. With the resolution of the Corwin%2FUtena tension%2C the main thread of SotS is arguably done.%2C and Utena%27s proposal sets them up for the next stage.%0D%0A%0D%0A-VR%0D%0A%5Bfont size%3D%222%22%5DManaging reader expectations can be hard%2C particularly when done on the fly like you have to here. %22We juggle priceless eggs in variable gravity.%22%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%22They copied all they could follow%2C but they couldn%27t copy my mind%2C%0D%0AAnd I left %27em sweating and stealing a year and a half behind.%22 20|11|19|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Gryphon||21:45:38|08/02/2014|%3E%3EOh%2C I%27m not talking about banishing it from the continuity%2C just %0D%0A%3E%3Ethinking that it%27s possible that it should%27ve been branded %0D%0A%3E%3Edifferently. Calling it %5Bi%5DThe Order of the Rose%5B%2Fi%5D or %5Bi%5DThe White %0D%0A%3E%3ERose Chronicle%5B%2Fi%5D or something%2C so as to more clearly signal that %0D%0A%3E%3Eit%27s a%29 about the Duelists%2C Cephiro%2C et cetera but b%29 differently %0D%0A%3E%3Estructured and themed from the four Symphonies. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EI like it. With the resolution of the Corwin%2FUtena tension%2C the main %0D%0A%3Ethread of SotS is arguably done.%2C and Utena%27s proposal sets them up %0D%0A%3Efor the next stage. %0D%0A%0D%0AOf course%2C we already tried that once with the %5Bi%5DD%26igrave%3Bqi%26uacute%3B Suite%5B%2Fi%5D reorg %28which would have to be %5Bi%5Dre%5B%2Fi%5D-readdressed if the new series banner moved away from the musical theme%2C as would many of the individual installments%27 titles%29%2C so... hmm.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 22|12|20|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|VoidRandom||21:57:19|08/02/2014|%3EOf course%2C we already tried that once with the %5Bi%5DD%C3%ACqi%C3%BA %0D%0A%3ESuite%5B%2Fi%5D reorg %28which would have to be %5Bi%5Dre%5B%2Fi%5D-readdressed if the %0D%0A%3Enew series banner moved away from the musical theme%2C as would many of %0D%0A%3Ethe individual installments%27 titles%29%2C so... hmm.%0D%0A%0D%0AI don%27t see any particular reason that you can%27t stick with musical metaphors. Perhaps it%27s some other Symphony%3F Now that the Trinity is mostly %22singing from the same page%22 maybe what we have is a chorus%3F harmony%3F The D%C3%ACqi%C3%BA Variations%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A-VR%0D%0A%5Bfont size%3D%222%22%5DProbably not the D%C3%ACqi%C3%BA Lays...you probably don%27t want to write alliterative verse...%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%22They copied all they could follow%2C but they couldn%27t copy my mind%2C%0D%0AAnd I left %27em sweating and stealing a year and a half behind.%22 24|13|22|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Gryphon||22:03:10|08/02/2014|%3E%3EOf course%2C we already tried that once with the %5Bi%5DD%C3%ACqi%C3%BA %0D%0A%3E%3ESuite%5B%2Fi%5D reorg %28which would have to be %5Bi%5Dre%5B%2Fi%5D-readdressed if the %0D%0A%3E%3Enew series banner moved away from the musical theme%2C as would many of %0D%0A%3E%3Ethe individual installments%27 titles%29%2C so... hmm.%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EI don%27t see any particular reason that you can%27t stick with musical %0D%0A%3Emetaphors. Perhaps it%27s some other Symphony%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ALong ago in the mists of history%2C we did briefly toy with the idea of calling what became S5 %5Bi%5DSymphony of %28something else%29%5B%2Fi%5D%2C but a%29 we couldn%27t decide what %22something else%22 should be%2C b%29 the whole thing seemed a bit twee and c%29 it didn%27t really set the new series apart enough to be worth going to the trouble it would take%2C in terms of retooling bits of the website and so on.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 2|1|0|||||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Proginoskes||01:31:28|08/02/2014|Oog. That%27s never a good feeling. 10|1|0|||||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|mdg1||06:20:42|08/02/2014|I don%27t have the whole structure of %5Bi%5DSword%5B%2Fi%5D in my head%2C so I%27m not entirely sure what the problem is%2C but I can say that I empathize. I%27ve begun and abandoned at least three completely different versions of a story that most recently was entitled %5Bi%5DOtaku Legacy%5B%2Fi%5D. %2Ashrug%2A%0D%0A%0D%0AHowever%2C I%27ve been told I make a decent sounding board%2C if you ever need one.%0D%0A 21|1|0|||||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|trboturtle2||21:53:06|08/02/2014|It sounds like you and the other EPU writers need to get together%2C look at the problems with SoS 4 and 5%2C then beat the said problems with clubs.....%0D%0A%0D%0ASeriously%2C does SoS 4 need some extra pieces to round it off%3F Or is the side trip to the Avatar world a problem%3F Maybe the set of stories with Avatar should be spun off into a Aria%2C concerto%2C or another musical piece%3F Then repurpose SoS5%2C picking up those threads from SoS 4%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ACraig 23|2|21|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Gryphon||22:00:59|08/02/2014|%3ESeriously%2C does SoS 4 need some extra pieces to round it off%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ANo%2C it%27s fine. The problem I was originally musing about arises in the very last story of the Symphony%2C and anyway%2C at this point I%27ve thought better of messing with it.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat we%27ve turned to talking about now is a separate%2C semi-related problem%2C that being that the perceived expectations of what No. 5 is supposed to be doing aren%27t necessarily in line with what it %5Bi%5Dis%5B%2Fi%5D doing.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EOr is %0D%0A%3Ethe side trip to the Avatar world a problem%3F Maybe the set of stories %0D%0A%3Ewith Avatar should be spun off into a Aria%2C concerto%2C or another %0D%0A%3Emusical piece%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AWe already kind of did that with the %5Bi%5DD%26igrave%3Bqi%26uacute%3B Suite%5B%2Fi%5D subset marking in the first place. If we were to go all the way and make the stories that are now Symphony No. 5 a whole separate FI storyline - more of a sequel to the four Symphonies than a fifth one in itself - that would probably lead to a %5Bi%5Dfurther%5B%2Fi%5D reorganization of the D%26igrave%3Bqi%26uacute%3B part%2C but I%27m not sure what form it would take. This is all very much a thought experiment and nothing is decided at this point.%0D%0A%0D%0AOne important thing is that this wouldn%27t actually remove any of those stories. That%27s not what we%27re talking about any more%3B now it%27s more about the power of titles to set expectations.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 25|3|23|||||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Droken||02:30:33|08/03/2014|Coming at this at the far end of this conversation%2C I%27m tempted to suggest that perhaps it would be best to give it a little bit more time to play out. When you get the finale to the D%C3%ACqi%C3%BA Suite up and we all %28writers and readers%29 get to see it as a complete whole%2C we%27re liable to lose that %22we don%27t see how it fits%22 conundrum that several readers have expressed. If as you said in an earlier post%2C the ending to the Suite brings it all back together%2C it may not look quite so lost on the wrong back road. 49|3|23|||||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|BeardedFerret||07:52:49|08/06/2014|I%27m jumping in late on this but I feel like this whole realisation might be exactly what the whole movement needs. S5 for me started out as a great%2C fun read - Saionji and Anakin%27s Excellent Adventure%2C the wedding as a setpiece%2C hopefully leading to a final confrontation with Akio and leading into the redone Day of Infamy.%0D%0A%0D%0AInstead what seems to have happened is it%27s gotten sidetracked twice - once with the DSM Panic stuff overshadowing the Tau Ceti stuff%2C and then again with the Avatar stuff pretty much barging in and taking over the place. From a reader%27s perspective%2C especially coming off a recent re-read of some of the S1 stuff%2C it feels very different. %0D%0A%0D%0AI think you essentially have two stories going on right now - the Korra stuff%2C which seems like it%27s what you want to be telling%2C and then S5 as it originally seemed to be progressing. %0D%0A%0D%0AAs I said%2C late to the party and all that. But there%27s %240.02. 50|4|49|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Matrix Dragon||09:07:55|08/06/2014|%3EAs I said%2C late to the party and all that. But there%27s %240.02. %0D%0A%0D%0APart of that is the time gap that happened in the real world between chapters. Between the first wedding attempt and the Tau Ceti battle%2C we had Manhunt%2C Starcrossed... Characters like Korra and Tali%27Shukra%2C who have both been given very important parts in Gryphs modern life%2C not to mention Corwins%2C didn%27t even exist at the time of Wedding Attemt The First. The same applies to a large portion of the current set of Duellists at DSM.%0D%0A%0D%0AI certainly think that%27s helped get things feeling a bit random%2C and possibly in need of a bit of creative juggling.%0D%0A%0D%0AMatrix Dragon%2C J. Random Nutter 26|1|0|||||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Meagen||04:30:01|08/03/2014|Thinking out loud about Symphony 5%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AFor all the pomp and circumstance and Norse deities%2C the main emotional conflict of %5Bi%5DClairon Call%5B%2Fi%5D was essentially%2C %22the abusive ex has shown up at the dream wedding%2C is he going to spoil the occasion%3F%22. Something that wouldn%27t be out of place in a soap opera. This is then brilliantly resolved with the story essentially going %22screw that%2C we%27re a space opera%2C let%27s go have space battles instead%2C in space%21%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AThen we have a chapter of Space Battles In Space%2C and then the wedding happens successfully without any further soap opera drama. %0D%0A%0D%0AAnd then%2C well... we move to Cartoon China%2C and we have the honeymoon%2C and the baby birth%2C and then house planning and construction%2C and meeting the neighbours... Sure%2C it%27s all wrapped up in magical and exotic and travelogue%2C and there%27s the plot thread of the fire-throwing mafia simmering away in the background%2C but it%27s been a while since we%27ve had any Space Battles In Space and I kind of miss those. 27|2|26|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Gryphon||08:16:04|08/03/2014|%3ESure%2C it%27s all wrapped up in magical and %0D%0A%3Eexotic and travelogue%2C and there%27s the plot thread of the %0D%0A%3Efire-throwing mafia simmering away in the background%2C but it%27s been a %0D%0A%3Ewhile since we%27ve had any Space Battles In Space and I kind of miss %0D%0A%3Ethose. %0D%0A%0D%0AWell... sometimes they aren%27t what%27s happening.%0D%0A%0D%0A%28... the entire first two Symphonies%2C for example.%29%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat I was musing about earlier re expectations%3A Sometimes I regret going that way with No. 3.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 28|3|27|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Nova Floresca||08:33:23|08/03/2014|I don%27t think it%27s regrettable%2C or a bad place to go%3B you have Utena cast as a knight in the classical sense%2C and a spaceship is very much both castle and charger both. Perhaps you could have gone for a souped-up freighter instead of a small capital ship as her weapon of choice%2C but I have the feeling the galaxy would still have conspired to put her in the hot seat.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This is probably a stupid question%2C but . . .%22 30|4|28|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Gryphon||12:56:07|08/03/2014|%3EI don%27t think it%27s regrettable%2C or a bad place to go%3B you have Utena %0D%0A%3Ecast as a knight in the classical sense%2C and a spaceship is very much %0D%0A%3Eboth castle and charger both. %0D%0A%0D%0ATrue%2C but I might at least have let her get out of high school first. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%28Then again%2C she%27s always been something of an early adopter. Her canonical experiences happened in the %5Bi%5Deighth grade%5B%2Fi%5D.%2A I%27m probably lucky she even confined herself to adventuring in the summer and bothered %5Bi%5Dgraduating%5B%2Fi%5D from high school%2C much less attempting to go to college%2C although the latter doesn%27t really seem to have worked.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A%5Bfont size%3D%221%22%5D%2A Including the%2C er%2C adventure with Akio%2C which is frankly more than a little disturbing if you look straight at it. Which the episode in question was structured to make certain you would have to. Eeeee.%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 32|5|30|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Nova Floresca||13:44:38|08/03/2014|Side question- does Japan have some sort of cultural expectation in regards to the 8th grade%3F In addition to Utena%2C the Eva pilots were in that same age bracket as well as the Madoka cast%2C technically%2A.%0D%0A%0D%0A%2Adepends on if you count time stuck in a timeloop to count towards your age.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This is probably a stupid question%2C but . . .%22 33|6|32|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Gryphon||13:52:23|08/03/2014|%3ESide question- does Japan have some sort of cultural expectation in %0D%0A%3Eregards to the 8th grade%3F In addition to Utena%2C the Eva pilots were in %0D%0A%3Ethat same age bracket as well as the Madoka cast%2C technically%2A. %0D%0A%0D%0ASeems likely. The %5Bi%5DSailor Moon%5B%2Fi%5D main cast are all around that age%2C too%2C and %5Bi%5DMagic Knight Rayearth%5B%2Fi%5D. Kaname in %5Bi%5DFull Metal Panic%21%5B%2Fi%5D is only a little older. School doesn%27t work quite the same way in Japan%2C but that age range is a popular target demo%2C and in certain genres the creators like to set their main casts to the same age as the viewers they are most hoping to attract.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 34|7|33|||||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Zemyla||18:00:29|08/03/2014|%3E%3ESide question- does Japan have some sort of cultural expectation in %0D%0A%3E%3Eregards to the 8th grade%3F In addition to Utena%2C the Eva pilots were in %0D%0A%3E%3Ethat same age bracket as well as the Madoka cast%2C technically%2A. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3ESeems likely. The %5Bi%5DSailor Moon%5B%2Fi%5D main cast are all around that %0D%0A%3Eage%2C too%2C and %5Bi%5DMagic Knight Rayearth%5B%2Fi%5D. Kaname in %5Bi%5DFull Metal %0D%0A%3EPanic%21%5B%2Fi%5D is only a little older. School doesn%27t work quite the same %0D%0A%3Eway in Japan%2C but that age range is a popular target demo%2C and in %0D%0A%3Ecertain genres the creators like to set their main casts to the same %0D%0A%3Eage as the viewers they are most hoping to attract. %0D%0A%0D%0AFrom what I hear%2C high school in Japan is pretty much the last hurrah you have in terms of freedom in that society. After that%2C you%27re an adult%2C you go to whatever training school or job you%27re expected to and then just work until you retire or die.%0D%0A%0D%0AOf course%2C I got this information third-hand%2C so I%27m probably drastically oversimplifying. 40|8|34|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Peter Eng||17:45:44|08/04/2014|%3E%0D%0A%3EFrom what I hear%2C high school in Japan is pretty much the last hurrah %0D%0A%3Eyou have in terms of freedom in that society. After that%2C you%27re an %0D%0A%3Eadult%2C you go to whatever training school or job you%27re expected to %0D%0A%3Eand then just work until you retire or die. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EOf course%2C I got this information third-hand%2C so I%27m probably %0D%0A%3Edrastically oversimplifying. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%0D%0AI think it depends on your path. For some people in Japan%2C high school is four years of study hell to get into The Right College%2C college is four years of partying to burn off the stress of high school%2C then the process is Work Until You Retire Or Die.%0D%0A%0D%0AFor those folks%2C eighth grade is probably the last moment when things make sense.%0D%0A%0D%0APeter Eng%0D%0A--%0D%0AInsert humorous comment here. 38|3|27|||||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Meagen||15:18:09|08/04/2014|%3E%3ESure%2C it%27s all wrapped up in magical and %0D%0A%3E%3Eexotic and travelogue%2C and there%27s the plot thread of the %0D%0A%3E%3Efire-throwing mafia simmering away in the background%2C but it%27s been a %0D%0A%3E%3Ewhile since we%27ve had any Space Battles In Space and I kind of miss %0D%0A%3E%3Ethose. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EWell... sometimes they aren%27t what%27s happening. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3E%28... the entire first two Symphonies%2C for example.%29 %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%0D%0AIf you don%27t count Hunted Rose%2C which I would. Psi Cops swarming the school campus and Corwin blowing up a satellite is definitely Space Battles In Space. Also%2C there is an entire story %28Fanfare for an Exiled Prince%29 that is all about Gryphon recruiting Utena for Space Adventures In Space.%0D%0A%0D%0AOn a quick overview I will grant you that Symphony 2 has no Space Battles In Space at all. %28It has Magical Adventures In Magical Lands instead%2C and they are actual Adventures and not Magical Building A House And Getting To Know The Neighbors.%29 39|4|38|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Gryphon||15:36:11|08/04/2014|%3Eand they are actual Adventures and not Magical Building A %0D%0A%3EHouse And Getting To Know The Neighbors. %0D%0A%0D%0AOh snap%2C as I believe the young people say.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 29|1|0|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Terminus Est||10:28:18|08/03/2014|Coming to this as someone who has enjoyed the whole thing%2C regardless of expectations... making the fifth Symphony either its own thing or the start of something new sounds like a good plan.%0D%0A%0D%0AHowever%2C I%27m with whoever it was that said you should probably wait until the Diqiu suite culminates. Until you %28and by extension%2C we%29 know where it%27s really going%2C making a decision that will drastically affect the entire website%27s structure seems... somewhat foolhardy. On the same note%2C though... might not be a bad idea to start looking into ways to make the restructuring painless as possible. Maybe get someone started on the new graphics and a bit of the coding. 31|2|29|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Gryphon||13:08:07|08/03/2014|%3EHowever%2C I%27m with whoever it was that said you should probably wait %0D%0A%3Euntil the Diqiu suite culminates. Until you %28and by extension%2C we%29 %0D%0A%3Eknow where it%27s really going%0D%0A%0D%0AOn a point of order%3A I do know that%2C at least in a general sense. I%27m not %5Bi%5Dcompletely%5B%2Fi%5D making this stuff up as I go along. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Ea decision that will drastically %0D%0A%3Eaffect the entire website%27s structure%0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C let%27s not oversell it. In technical terms%2C adding a new page for whatever the new series would be called wouldn%27t be any harder than adding any of the other ones that have gone in since the website was designed. Easier%2C in fact%2C because I%27ve done it quite recently and haven%27t had time to forget the tricks to it again%2C so I won%27t have to go and rediscover how it all works for the %5Bi%5Dn%5B%2Fi%5Dth time like I did when I added the %5Bi%5DLegacy of Korra%5B%2Fi%5D page. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0AThere would be a good bit of grunt work involved in converting the stories themselves%2C since all their opening and closing titles would have to be adjusted and whatnot%2C and of course that would have the knock-on effect of requiring all their cites in the Chron Listing to be updated. Similarly%2C the opening and closing bits of all the audio version would have to be re-recorded%2C and the affected files re-uploaded %28which reminds me that I still haven%27t fixed the directory structure for the rest of the recorded Symphony pieces - drgh%2C must do that soon%29. None of that is really challenging%2C just fiddly and time-consuming.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EOn the same note%2C though... might not be a bad idea to start looking into %0D%0A%3Eways to make the restructuring painless as possible. Maybe get %0D%0A%3Esomeone started on the new graphics and a bit of the coding. %0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C like I say%2C the coding isn%27t really a big deal. The biggest design challenges are the graphics and%2C before they can be made%2C the sorting-out of nomenclature. I did a bit of brainstorming on that front last night. Nothing%27s decided yet%2C but I%27m looking into it with some interest. In daylight%2C it still seems like a halfway decent idea%2C which is not something one can always say about one%27s late-night ideas. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 35|1|0|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Offsides||20:09:21|08/03/2014|OK%2C I%27m confused as to exactly what you think you did that you shouldn%27t have. And perhaps more importantly%2C why you%27re feeling that way. Is there some sort of corner you feel you%27ve painted yourself into%3F I can%27t say I%27ve been feeling that way%2C but I%27m just a reader...%0D%0A%0D%0AOffsides%0D%0A%0D%0A%26%2391%3B...%26%2393%3B in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.%0D%0A -- David Ben Gurion%0D%0AEPU RCW %23%26pi%3B%0D%0A%23include %3Cstdsig.h%3E%0D%0A%0D%0A 36|2|35|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Gryphon||20:11:42|08/03/2014|%3EOK%2C I%27m confused as to exactly what you think you did that you %0D%0A%3Eshouldn%27t have. And perhaps more importantly%2C why you%27re feeling that %0D%0A%3Eway. Is there some sort of corner you feel you%27ve painted yourself %0D%0A%3Einto%3F I can%27t say I%27ve been feeling that way%2C but I%27m just a reader... %0D%0A%0D%0AOne hates to seem brusque and%2For lazy and say%2C %22See the rest of the thread%2C%22 but%2C see the rest of the thread. %3A%29 It all got kicked around pretty thoroughly yesterday.%0D%0A%0D%0AShort version is that the immediate crisis is dealt with%2C but there are some longer-term structural issues that still need looking at.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 41|3|36|||||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|GethN7||19:27:09|08/04/2014|Having read most of the 5th Symphony%2C it doesn%27t really mesh that well with the end of the fourth%2C which was pretty conclusive on it%27s own.%0D%0A%0D%0AAlso%2C while the Legend of Korra diversion might have been nice to some%2C it took a segment of the overall saga that was already meandering and took that down another rabbit trail.%0D%0A%0D%0AI suppose the 5th could be made to fit in better with the fourth with a rewrite%2C and the LoK segue could still happen%2C but only after the rest of S5 is rebooted to line up with the preceding canon better. 37|2|35|||||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|drakensis||02:56:18|08/04/2014|%3EOK%2C I%27m confused as to exactly what you think you did that you %0D%0A%3Eshouldn%27t have. And perhaps more importantly%2C why you%27re feeling that %0D%0A%3Eway. Is there some sort of corner you feel you%27ve painted yourself %0D%0A%3Einto%3F I can%27t say I%27ve been feeling that way%2C but I%27m just a reader... %0D%0A%0D%0AI don%27t think it%27s been said explicitly%2C but my understanding it%27s about the stories of 4th and 5th Symphony being under the general banner of Symphony of the Sword. Given the timeskip that takes Kate %26 Utena from being still at High School to a year or so into college%2C there%27s an arguement that this should be under a separate overall title and organised somewhat differently%0D%0A%0D%0AThat%27s what I got from reading the thread%2C anyway. I could have the wrong end of the stick. 42|1|0|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|laudre||17:10:13|08/05/2014|%3E... you wake up after a week of mild illness and realize that the %0D%0A%3Epeople who told you you were Doing It Wrong in 2003 were probably %0D%0A%3Eright%2C but that to fix it now you would have to bin 2.33 megabytes of %0D%0A%3Etext and start 2410 completely over. %0D%0A%0D%0A... huh.%0D%0A%0D%0AA quick poke at the archives doesn%27t turn up the thread with my old comments%2C but I don%27t think much of value was lost there. Certainly%2C I%27m not going to lose sleep about an embarrassing flame-out from my bad old CANNOT LET SOMEONE BE WRONG ON THE INTERNET days being lost to the ages%2C even if I might have had a point under all the misaimed vitriol.%0D%0A%0D%0AThat%27s not to say I don%27t have issues with how stuff went down around there -- I didn%27t like the Corwin%2FUtena%2FAnthy triad then%2C and I don%27t now. Back then%2C I couldn%27t articulate why it bothered me very well%2C which is why what came out was %28I%27m guessing%2C based on past experience%29 a bunch of elliptical rhetoric and exceedingly caustic word salad.%0D%0A%0D%0AI suppose I could explain%2C in non-hostile terms%2C why I think it was a bad idea%2C drawing on what I%27ve learned about criticism and critical theory%2C literary structure%2C gender theory%2C and queer theory %28the latter two have become quite important to me%2C what with me coming to grips with being trans and all%29%2C but ... there seems little point to doing so at this late date%2A. I will say that working out why it didn%27t work for me in a non-public space gave me a lot of insight into the craft of writing and%2C in particular%2C character arcs and narrative logic.%0D%0A%0D%0AI have no suggestions about how to go about patching it up -- I%27m sure anything I could come up with Gryph could as well %28if he hasn%27t already%29 -- and I%27m not sure I%27ll be partaking of that particular corner of the EPU output in any event.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bhr %2F%5D%5Bsmall%5D%22Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately%2C it also brought mortis.%22%0D%0A - Kenneth Boulding%5B%2Fsmall%5D%5Bhr %2F%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bsmall%5D%2A I can%27t help thinking of the crypto-lesbian fiasco%2C which was bizarre and off-base on a number of levels %28the original criticism%2C I mean%29. Gender theory and queer theory aren%27t my field -- as I%27ve said many times%2C I%27m an economist by training and profession %28it%27s even my job title%29 -- but in coming to understand gender identity issues and making friends with other trans women%2C I picked up a fair amount anyway%2C just so I could begin to frame my experience. Considering that some of my criticisms would include words like %22heteronormative%2C%22 I can%27t imagine that they%27d be terribly well-received no matter how courteously I phrased them.%5B%2Fsmall%5D 43|2|42|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Gryphon||18:11:57|08/05/2014|%3EA quick poke at the archives doesn%27t turn up the thread with my old %0D%0A%3Ecomments%2C but I don%27t think much of value was lost there.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe one I was specifically thinking of turned up in the comments on the annotations to %5Bi%5DKnights III%5B%2Fi%5D%2C not discussion having to do with %5Bi%5DVortigern%27s 2%5B%2Fi%5D itself%2C but yes%2C it was mainly you %28and LostFactor%2C IIRC%29 I was thinking of when I mentioned that some people actually %2Fragequit the Symphony over it. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EThat%27s not to say I don%27t have issues with how stuff went down around %0D%0A%3Ethere -- I didn%27t like the Corwin%2FUtena%2FAnthy triad then%2C and I don%27t %0D%0A%3Enow.%0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C if it ... helps%3F... it%27s very likely the reasons I was thinking better of the development during my bout of flu last week were not the same as yours for objecting to it in the first place anyway%2C so we probably wouldn%27t have a consensus anyway.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EBack then%2C I couldn%27t articulate why it bothered me very well%2C %0D%0A%3Ewhich is why what came out was %28I%27m guessing%2C based on past %0D%0A%3Eexperience%29 a bunch of elliptical rhetoric and exceedingly caustic %0D%0A%3Eword salad. %0D%0A%0D%0AActually%2C if memory serves%2C some of it was... not very elliptical at all. You%27re right about the second part%2C though.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EI suppose I could explain%2C in non-hostile terms%2C why I think it was a %0D%0A%3Ebad idea%2C drawing on what I%27ve learned about criticism and critical %0D%0A%3Etheory%2C literary structure%2C gender theory%2C and queer theory%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s just as well you%27ve opted not to%2C mainly because I didn%27t design it - or indeed anything - with reference to any of those five things. I don%27t approach the writing of fiction as an exercise in social science%2C and people who approach the reading of my work expecting that I did are basically always going to be disappointed...%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EI%27m not sure I%27ll be partaking of that particular %0D%0A%3Ecorner of the EPU output in any event. %0D%0A%0D%0A... thus. %28sigh%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EConsidering that %0D%0A%3Esome of my criticisms would include words like %22heteronormative%2C%22 I %0D%0A%3Ecan%27t imagine that they%27d be terribly well-received no matter how %0D%0A%3Ecourteously I phrased them.%0D%0A%0D%0AMm. You would%2C at the very least%2C be suspected of overthinking the matter. %28And possibly also overphrasing it. Surely there%27s a word of fewer than six syllables that would do there.%29%0D%0A%0D%0AStill%2C it sounds like you%27ve had your own adventures lately%2C which might have tended to be of the kind that would lead a person into the habit of doing so. And if that%27s helped you get a handle on what must%27ve been a pretty dismaying experience%2C well%2C it%27s hardly down to me to say you%27re doing it wrong.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 44|3|43|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|laudre||21:58:45|08/05/2014|%3EWell%2C if it ... helps%3F... it%27s very likely the reasons I was thinking %0D%0A%3Ebetter of the development during my bout of flu last week were not the %0D%0A%3Esame as yours for objecting to it in the first place anyway%2C so we %0D%0A%3Eprobably wouldn%27t have a consensus anyway. %0D%0A%0D%0AWell... staying as much as I can to the narrative logic%2Fcharacter development part of it %28as opposed to the parts that have to do with social theory%29%2C here are a couple of reasons it bothers me%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A- Despite the relatively small age difference between Corwin and Utena when they first meet %28especially in the context of a setting where people who measure their lifespans in centuries%2C if not millenia%2C are not uncommon -- even non-Detian%2C essentially baseline humans live substantially longer lives in the UF%27s equivalent of the developed world%2C IIRC%29%2C they%27re standing on opposite sides of a very substantial experience gap. Yes%2C Corwin%27s an exceptional person on a number of levels%2C even by the rather atypical standards of his parents%27 %28all three of them%2C if you will%29 cohort%2C but ... she%27s been through a crucible that even his Trial doesn%27t really hold a candle to before they%27ve even met. Thus%2C while his crush on her is something I can %5Bi%5Dtotally%5B%2Fi%5D buy%2C her developing feelings for him never felt like a natural%2C organic part of her character growth%2C but something that happened for meta reasons. Even given the time it takes for these things to unfold%2C and the experiences they go through%2C it just doesn%27t feel like it fits the dynamic they establish early on%2C in my opinion.%0D%0A%0D%0A- Related to the above%3A around the time that he and Utena first meet%2C as I recall%2C he gets in trouble at school for fighting. And that particular incident was actually one of my favorites Corwin stories%2C because it showed that being a supernaturally intelligent and competent demigod%2C trained to use both mind and body with divine competence%2C does not exempt one from the stupidities of adolescence.%0D%0A%0D%0A- Corwin goes through a lot of maturation between when he meets Utena and when they become an item%2C but ... in getting into a relationship with his boyhood crush%2C it feels like all of that growth was short-circuited. He grows up%2C goes on with his life%2C maintaining a deep friendship and unique bond with Utena%2C sure%2C but in that bond becoming romantic%2C it just feels like it veers back into adolescent wish fulfillment.%0D%0A%0D%0A- Corwin%2FAnthy feels downright contrived to me. I%27m sorry -- I don%27t know any other way to put it. When she refuses ovifusion %28i.e. a child of her and Utena%2C biologically%29 in favor of%2C well%2C %5Bi%5Dnatural%5B%2Fi%5D insemination%2C it was downright unsettling on several levels.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EIt%27s just as well you%27ve opted not to%2C mainly because I didn%27t design %0D%0A%3Eit - or indeed anything - with reference to any of those five things. %0D%0A%3EI don%27t approach the writing of fiction as an exercise in social %0D%0A%3Escience%2C and people who approach the reading of my work expecting that %0D%0A%3EI did are basically always going to be disappointed... %0D%0A%0D%0ASure%2C I realize and respect that%2C but I can%27t look at a piece of creative output and %5Bi%5Dnot%5B%2Fi%5D see the ways it%27s problematic anymore. I%27ve enjoyed some %5Bi%5Ddeeply%5B%2Fi%5D problematic stuff since becoming aware of these things%2C and enjoying any sort of pop culture does require being able to enjoy things despite what are sometimes %5Bi%5Dglaring%5B%2Fi%5D flaws in that light. %28If I refused to engage with anything problematic%2C my world would be a very%2C very tiny place indeed.%29%0D%0A%0D%0AUnderstand I%27m not condemning you or your work because there are things in it which reflect on the many unexamined assumptions and ideas you may hold as a cisgender%2C heterosexual%2C white male in your late 30s%2Fearly 40s %28I know you%27re a few years older than me%2C but I don%27t recall exactly how much%29. Everyone has these sorts of blinders%3B being trans and female- and lesbian-identified has certainly made me aware of a lot of things I just didn%27t see before %28and that%27s only going to get more true as I move ahead with my transition -- I%27m still presenting as male at work for the moment%2C as I%27ve not yet started HRT%29%2C but that doesn%27t change me being white and a natural-born US citizen and having all those blind spots %28my better half is Singaporean Chinese%2C and thus picks up on many%2C many things that still sometimes go right by me%29.%0D%0A%0D%0ABut that%27s getting a bit farther afield into that social theory stuff I%27d rather keep largely out of the picture.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%3EI%27m not sure I%27ll be partaking of that particular %0D%0A%3E%3Ecorner of the EPU output in any event. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3E... thus. %28sigh%29 %0D%0A%0D%0AOh%2C it%27s not because of the social issues -- it%27s more that I was so disappointed with where Symphony went that I can%27t really even reread the bits I used to love. There%27s lots and lots of EPU output I still read %28I%27m digging the Korra stuff so far%2C though I%27ve not yet read the latest bits.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EMm. You would%2C at the very least%2C be suspected of overthinking the %0D%0A%3Ematter.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27d be overthinking if I sat there with the Symphony oeuvre in one window%2C a pile of textbooks open on my desk to various passages%2C and my own work %28edited in LaTeX%2C so I can format it properly%29 in another window %28possibly a separate monitor%29. The stuff I%27m alluding to%3F I don%27t really have to %5Bi%5Dthink%5B%2Fi%5D about it as such%3B I just %5Bi%5Dsee%5B%2Fi%5D it%2C I guess.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%28And possibly also overphrasing it. Surely there%27s a word of %0D%0A%3Efewer than six syllables that would do there.%29 %0D%0A%0D%0AHonestly%3F There%27s not another word that%27d take the place of %22heteronormative%22 in the way I%27d be using it. It%27s much like having had to create the term %5Bi%5Dcisgender%5B%2Fi%5D%2C meaning someone who identifies with the gender they were assigned at birth%2C as opposed to %5Bi%5Dtransgender%5B%2Fi%5D%2C which is identifying with a different gender than that assigned at birth.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Ewhat %0D%0A%3Emust%27ve been a pretty dismaying experience%0D%0A%0D%0ADismaying in the sense of the hills it meant I%27d have to climb%2C yeah. That%27s a big part of why I spent so many decades in denial even once I had a name I could put to what was going on inside me. In many other ways%3F %5Bi%5DLiberating%5B%2Fi%5D.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bhr %2F%5D%5Bsmall%5D%22Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately%2C it also brought mortis.%22%0D%0A - Kenneth Boulding%5B%2Fsmall%5D%5Bhr %2F%5D 45|4|44|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Gryphon||22:23:58|08/05/2014|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Aug-05-14 AT 11:58 PM (EDT)]%3EThus%2C while his crush on her is something I can %0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5Dtotally%5B%2Fi%5D buy%2C her developing feelings for him never felt like a %0D%0A%3Enatural%2C organic part of her character growth%2C but something that %0D%0A%3Ehappened for meta reasons.%0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C I can%27t help you there%2C I guess%2C because you%27re wrong about that%2C full stop.%0D%0A%0D%0AOddly enough%2C I just recently wrote a scene %28not that you%27ll be seeing it%2C but%29 in which she muses on that very matter to someone else - the fact that the year-and-a-half between them was a %5Bi%5Dreally significant%5B%2Fi%5D year-and-a-half when they first met%2C and how it required some... adjustment... on her part when she began to realize that he was catching her up and her view of him was changing. Because%2C you see... %0D%0A%0D%0A%3EEven given the time it takes for these %0D%0A%3Ethings to unfold%2C and the experiences they go through%2C it just doesn%27t %0D%0A%3Efeel like it fits the dynamic they establish early on%2C in my opinion. %0D%0A%0D%0A... %22the dynamic they establish early on%22 %5Bi%5Dwasn%27t permanent%5B%2Fi%5D - these things aren%27t%2C you know - and it%27s not as if the characters themselves didn%27t take a while to recognize that and bring it on board%2C either.%0D%0A%0D%0ASo%2C like I say%2C your take on what is and isn%27t %22natural%2C organic%22 is just... not right. It happens%2C and the thing %5Bi%5DI%27ve%5B%2Fi%5D had to adjust to over the years is that when it does%2C it%27s not my problem.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E- Related to the above%3A around the time that he and Utena first meet%2C %0D%0A%3Eas I recall%2C he gets in trouble at school for fighting.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis is... not true either. You may be thinking of the fight scene in %5Bi%5DSophomore Slump%5B%2Fi%5D%2C which happens two years later and for which%2C if I may say%2C he has a bloody good reason.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E- Corwin goes through a lot of maturation between when he meets Utena %0D%0A%3Eand when they become an item%2C but ... in getting into a relationship %0D%0A%3Ewith his boyhood crush%2C it feels like all of that growth was %0D%0A%3Eshort-circuited. He grows up%2C goes on with his life%2C maintaining a %0D%0A%3Edeep friendship and unique bond with Utena%2C sure%2C but in that bond %0D%0A%3Ebecoming romantic%2C it just feels like it veers back into adolescent %0D%0A%3Ewish fulfillment. %0D%0A%0D%0AOr%2C conversely%2C arrives at last where it was supposed to all along%2C after a long and complicated diversion to some outlying stations. You say potato...%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E- Corwin%2FAnthy feels downright contrived to me. %0D%0A%0D%0AI congratulate you on your perspicacity%2C madam%21 It %5Bi%5Dwas%5B%2Fi%5D contrived%2C completely and absolutely.%0D%0A%0D%0A... It%27s just that the one contriving it was Anthy.%0D%0A%0D%0AShe%27s a witch%2C you know. They%27re all a little bit evil. They can%27t help it%3B it%27s part of the RFC.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EUnderstand I%27m not condemning you or your work because there are %0D%0A%3Ethings in it which reflect on the many unexamined assumptions and %0D%0A%3Eideas you may hold as a cisgender%2C heterosexual%2C white male in your %0D%0A%3Elate 30s%2Fearly 40s %28I know you%27re a few years older than me%2C but I %0D%0A%3Edon%27t recall exactly how much%29.%0D%0A%0D%0AOh%2C here we go. I was %5Bi%5Dwondering%5B%2Fi%5D how long it would take someone to play the %22Of course you don%27t %5Bi%5Dknow%5B%2Fi%5D you%27re Completely Wrong because of the innate bias of your Privileged Sociosexual Position. Patpat%2C there there%2C it%27s not your fault.%22 Champion.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%3E%3EI%27m not sure I%27ll be partaking of that particular %0D%0A%3E%3E%3Ecorner of the EPU output in any event. %0D%0A%3E%3E%0D%0A%3E%3E... thus. %28sigh%29 %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EOh%2C it%27s not because of the social issues -- it%27s more that I was so %0D%0A%3Edisappointed with where Symphony went that I can%27t really even reread %0D%0A%3Ethe bits I used to love.%0D%0A%0D%0AI gotta say that%27s pretty tragic-hipster of you. It%27s like the guy I knew at WPI who used to not only drop bands he liked if they Sold Out and Went Mainstream%2C but stop listening to their poorly produced indie EPs from before then%2C too.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EThere%27s lots and lots of EPU output I still %0D%0A%3Eread %28I%27m digging the Korra stuff so far%0D%0A%0D%0A... which is an interesting trick%2C since most of her UF screen time so far has been part and parcel of the Corwin-Utena arc of the Symphony. I%27m so confused.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EHonestly%3F There%27s not another word that%27d take the place of %0D%0A%3E%22heteronormative%22 in the way I%27d be using it.%0D%0A%0D%0AMaybe not in one word%2C but there must be a set of simpler words that convey the same idea%2C or the word wouldn%27t be definable in the first place. That goes for %5Bi%5Dany%5B%2Fi%5D sesquipedalianism%2C whether it%27s gender-politics jargon or a description of an electronic component.%0D%0A%0D%0ARegardless%2C you%27re right in assuming that I have zero interest in debating whether Utena%27s relationship of Corwin is intended as some kind of authorial refutation of her bisexuality %28NOTE%3A it isn%27t%29%2C which is where context implies you were probably going with that.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 48|5|45|||||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Proginoskes||00:53:35|08/06/2014|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Aug-06-14 AT 01:01 AM (EDT)]%3EIt%27s just that the one contriving it was Anthy. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EShe%27s a witch%2C you know. They%27re all a little bit evil. They can%27t %0D%0A%3Ehelp it%3B it%27s part of the RFC. %0D%0A%0D%0AAnd we love her for it.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%3EUnderstand I%27m not condemning you or your work because there are %0D%0A%3E%3Ethings in it which reflect on the many unexamined assumptions and %0D%0A%3E%3Eideas you may hold as a cisgender%2C heterosexual%2C white male in your %0D%0A%3E%3Elate 30s%2Fearly 40s %28I know you%27re a few years older than me%2C but I %0D%0A%3E%3Edon%27t recall exactly how much%29.%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EOh%2C here we go. I was %5Bi%5Dwondering%5B%2Fi%5D how long it would take someone %0D%0A%3Eto play the %22Of course you don%27t %5Bi%5Dknow%5B%2Fi%5D you%27re Completely Wrong %0D%0A%3Ebecause of the innate bias of your Privileged Sociosexual Position. %0D%0A%3EPatpat%2C there there%2C it%27s not your fault%22 card. %0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m fairly sure this is a relatively innocent case of %22Laudre is over-thinking and%2For over-stating things%22%2C not the poorly-disguised insult such statements often are. %28Important Note for Laudre%3A such statements are usually poorly-disguised insults. Avoid listing the ways in which someone is privileged.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%3EThere%27s lots and lots of EPU output I still %0D%0A%3E%3Eread %28I%27m digging the Korra stuff so far%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3E... which is an interesting trick%2C since most of her UF screen time so %0D%0A%3Efar has been part and parcel of the Corwin-Utena arc of the Symphony. %0D%0A%3EI%27m so confused. %0D%0A%0D%0ASo am I %28confused%2C that is%29.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%3EHonestly%3F There%27s not another word that%27d take the place of %0D%0A%3E%3E%22heteronormative%22 in the way I%27d be using it.%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EMaybe not in one word%2C but there must be a set of simpler words that %0D%0A%3Econvey the same idea%2C or the word wouldn%27t be definable in the first %0D%0A%3Eplace. That goes for %5Bi%5Dany%5B%2Fi%5D sesquipedalianism%2C whether it%27s %0D%0A%3Egender-politics jargon or a description of an electronic component. %0D%0A%0D%0AMy only beef with %22heteronormative%22 as a word %28and several other gender-politics terms%29 is that it violates the expectation that prefixes and root words have consistent meaning%3A in the rest of the English language%2C %22hetero-%22 means %22differing%22 and %22normative%22 means %22of%2C pertaining to%2C or attempting to establish a norm or standard%22%2C so by rights %22heteronormative%22 %5Bi%5Daught%5B%2Fi%5D to mean %22of%2C pertaining to%2C or attempting to establish a differing norm or standard%22. But of course it doesn%27t.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3ERegardless%2C you%27re right in assuming that I have zero interest in %0D%0A%3Edebating whether Utena%27s relationship of Corwin is intended as some %0D%0A%3Ekind of authorial refutation of her bisexuality %28NOTE%3A it isn%27t%29%2C %0D%0A%3Ewhich is where context implies you were probably going with that. %0D%0A%0D%0AI don%27t think that%27s where Laudre was going%2C but then I may be blinded by the fact that it%27s pretty much impossible%3A Utena has both a husband and a wife. She%27s virtually the %5Bi%5Ddefinition%5B%2Fi%5D of %22bisexual%22. 56|5|45|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Bad Moon||15:50:39|08/09/2014|%3E%3E- Corwin%2FAnthy feels downright contrived to me. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EI congratulate you on your perspicacity%2C madam%21 It %5Bi%5Dwas%5B%2Fi%5D %0D%0A%3Econtrived%2C completely and absolutely. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3E... It%27s just that the one contriving it was Anthy. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EShe%27s a witch%2C you know. They%27re all a little bit evil. They can%27t %0D%0A%3Ehelp it%3B it%27s part of the RFC. %0D%0A%0D%0AOh man%2C I thought I was the only one who thought that way. There was always a distinct Fuck You Got Mine feel about Anthy surrounding that series of events and Kozue getting hip checked out of the way.%0D%0A%0D%0A------%0D%0AOh God%2C it was me. I was the grognard all along. 57|6|56|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Peter Eng||00:40:00|08/10/2014|%3E%3E%3E- Corwin%2FAnthy feels downright contrived to me. %0D%0A%3E%3E%0D%0A%3E%3EI congratulate you on your perspicacity%2C madam%21 It %5Bi%5Dwas%5B%2Fi%5D %0D%0A%3E%3Econtrived%2C completely and absolutely. %0D%0A%3E%3E%0D%0A%3E%3E... It%27s just that the one contriving it was Anthy. %0D%0A%3E%3E%0D%0A%3E%3EShe%27s a witch%2C you know. They%27re all a little bit evil. They can%27t %0D%0A%3E%3Ehelp it%3B it%27s part of the RFC. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EOh man%2C I thought I was the only one who thought that way. There was %0D%0A%3Ealways a distinct Fuck You Got Mine feel about Anthy surrounding that %0D%0A%3Eseries of events and Kozue getting hip checked out of the way. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%0D%0AMaybe the story hip-checked her%2C but Kozue got out of the way of her own accord. I suspect that when Anthy found out%2C her first reaction was%2C %22That wasn%27t what I expected to happen. Damn.%22%0D%0A%0D%0APeter Eng%0D%0A--%0D%0AInsert humorous comment here. 58|7|57|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Gryphon||00:54:22|08/10/2014|%3E%3EOh man%2C I thought I was the only one who thought that way. There was %0D%0A%3E%3Ealways a distinct Fuck You Got Mine feel about Anthy surrounding that %0D%0A%3E%3Eseries of events and Kozue getting hip checked out of the way. %0D%0A%3E%3E%0D%0A%3EMaybe the story hip-checked her%2C but Kozue got out of the way of her %0D%0A%3Eown accord. I suspect that when Anthy found out%2C her first reaction %0D%0A%3Ewas%2C %22That wasn%27t what I expected to happen. Damn.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C keep in mind%2C it wasn%27t Anthy she was getting out of the way %5Bi%5Dof%3B%5B%2Fi%5D in fact%2C though they%27d been an Actual Couple for some time by that point%2C Kozue and Corwin didn%27t become lovers until %5Bi%5Dafter%5B%2Fi%5D Annabelle%27s conception. %28In fact%2C you may recall that Anthy was both surprised and dismayed to discover belatedly that this was the case. She had assumed%2C perhaps uncharitably but not unreasonably%2C that Kozue would%27ve wasted no time getting her leg over that once the relationship ceased to be strictly for PR purposes.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 46|4|44|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Matrix Dragon||23:17:38|08/05/2014|%3EUnderstand I%27m not condemning you or your work because there are %0D%0A%3Ethings in it which reflect on the many unexamined assumptions and %0D%0A%3Eideas you may hold as a cisgender%2C heterosexual%2C white male in your %0D%0A%3Elate 30s%2Fearly 40s %28I know you%27re a few years older than me%2C but I %0D%0A%3Edon%27t recall exactly how much%29.%0D%0A%0D%0A... Right. That%27s it. %2AGets a dictionary and finally looks up cisgendered.%2A Huh. From the context it%27s normally used it%2C I always figured people thought I drowned puppies and pulled the wings off pixies.%0D%0A %0D%0AMatrix Dragon%2C J. Random Nutter 47|5|46|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Gryphon||00:04:24|08/06/2014|%3EFrom the context it%27s normally used it%2C I always %0D%0A%3Efigured people thought I drowned puppies and pulled the wings off %0D%0A%3Epixies. %0D%0A%0D%0AI know%2C right%3F If I come across as defensive in my reply to that post%2C it may be because the jargon itself has become tantamount to an accusation these days. It%27s the 21st-century social discourse equivalent of questions like%2C %22So when did you stop robbing liquor stores to pay for your heroin habit%3F%22%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 55|6|47|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|McFortner||20:29:40|08/06/2014|%3E %22So when did you stop robbing liquor %0D%0A%3Estores to pay for your heroin habit%3F%22 %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%0D%0AThe proper response to that should be%2C %22You wound me%2C sir%2C you truly wound me. It%27s my high internet bandwidth that I%27m supporting....%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22black%22%5DMichael C. Fortner%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A%5Bfont color%3D%22green%22 size%3D-1%5D%22Maxim 37%3A There is no such thing as %22overkill%22.%0D%0AThere is only %22open fire%22 and %22I need to reload%22.%5B%2Ffont%5D 51|1|0|||||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Arashi||13:05:24|08/06/2014|To be honest%2C while the Anthy%2FUtena%2FCorwin evolution... irritated me. I could see it build from a while back and even saw how it would work%2Ffit into the narritive. So by the time it was offical%2C I had enough time to get used to it and accept it.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn actuality%2C the Kate%2FJuri%2FMiki thing torqued me off more. While I know it was not even remotely the intention but following on the heels of A%2FU%2FC%2C all I could initially see was a statement that a woman couldn%27t be in a relationship with another woman without wanting a guy at some point. Wrong and unfair%2C I know%2C but that was my initial throughts and feelings when I came across that scene.%0D%0A%0D%0AAlthough nothing will ever get me to ragequit anything on EPU%2C I enjoy everything far too much. Besides%2C it%27s only pixles. %3AP 52|2|51|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Gryphon||13:08:56|08/06/2014|%3EIn actuality%2C the Kate%2FJuri%2FMiki thing torqued me off more.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhich is kind of funny in the context of Heteronormative Outrage%2C since Juri%27s weird thing for Miki is canonical%2C%2A and Kate just kind of got caught in the middle of it. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A%5Bfont size%3D%221%22%5D%2A As is Touga%27s. Maybe it%27s just Miki.%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 53|3|52|||||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Arashi||13:15:43|08/06/2014|%3E%3EIn actuality%2C the Kate%2FJuri%2FMiki thing torqued me off more.%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EWhich is kind of funny in the context of Heteronormative Outrage%2C %0D%0A%3Esince Juri%27s weird thing for Miki is canonical%2C%2A and Kate just kind of %0D%0A%3Egot caught in the middle of it. %3A%29 %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3E--G. %0D%0A%3E%5Bfont size%3D%221%22%5D%2A As is Touga%27s. Maybe it%27s just Miki.%5B%2Ffont%5D %0D%0A%3E-%3E%3C- %0D%0A%3EBenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod %0D%0A%3EEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F %0D%0A%3Ezgryphon at that email service Google has %0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D %0D%0A%0D%0AAlso true. I never said I had an abundence of %5Bi%5Dlogic%5B%2Fi%5D when I had the reaction. %3B%29%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd yes%2C I would say there is %5Bi%5DSomething About Mer--er--Miki%5B%2Fi%5D%2C since nearly all of the side cast %28including his sister%29 seem to want him at some point. 54|4|53|||1||RE%3A And then%2C one day...|Gryphon||13:18:49|08/06/2014|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Aug-06-14 AT 01:19 PM (EDT)]%3EAnd yes%2C I would say there is %5Bi%5DSomething About Mer--er--Miki%5B%2Fi%5D%2C %0D%0A%3Esince nearly all of the side cast %28including his sister%29 seem to want %0D%0A%3Ehim at some point. %0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C be fair. At that point in the canon%2C Kozue is a%29 up for basically anything and b%29 such a narcissist she couldn%27t possibly %5Bi%5Dnot%5B%2Fi%5D want to %5Bb%5DBLANK - Charles Nelson Reilly%21%5B%2Fb%5D a male version of herself. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A%5Bfont size%3D%221%22%5DWas that my outside voice%3F I do apologize.%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D