41||0|5101|0|
0|0|0|||1||And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|laudre||09:54:03|08/06/2014|Out of respect for forum glitches%2C spawning a new thread.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Csnip prior discussion of Corwin%2FUtena%2FAnthy%3E%0D%0A%0D%0AI suppose we%27ll just have to agree to disagree there. I mean%2C sure%2C I%27m not getting the inside view of your Utena%27s head%2C but from where I sit%2C as the reader%2C it just doesn%27t feel natural or organic.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnother part of it is that... well%2C after %3Clink%3Awww.eyrie-productions.com%2FUF%2FFI%2FSOS%2Fbancroft-tower-1.txt%7Cshe explains how she%27s already in love with someone else%3E%2C that should%27ve been the end of it. Instead%2C what comes after reminds me%2C in a very uncomfortable way%2C of the implicit%2C toxic belief held by certain groups of people%2C usually young%2C geeky males%2C about certain other people%2C usually women%2C to whom they have a one-sided romantic and%2For sexual attraction. %28I%27ll use the genders appropriate to the %22usual%22 examples denoted above from here.%29 The belief is that%2C to the woman%2C the man is a friend %28often expressed in such terms as %22just a friend%22 or %22friend zone%22 which carry the implicit assumption that anything other than a romantic and%2For sexual relationship with her is%2C ultimately%2C an inherently lesser and unworthy thing%29%2C but if the man continues spending time with her as her friend%2C he%27ll eventually have turned in enough friendship tokens that she%27ll suddenly see what a wonderful man he is and become thoroughly besotted.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn the real world%2C a man being a woman%27s friend with the unspoken %28possibly unconscious%29 condition that it%27s only because he%27s waiting for her to become his girlfriend%3F It%27s just creepy and fucked-up%2C and dishonest to boot.%0D%0A%0D%0AOne of the reasons that the whole Anthy%2FCorwin thing re%3A conceiving Utena and Anthy%27s first child bothers me is because this echoes the above to some extent%2C and it%27s also predicated upon the belief that a child conceived through heterosexual PIV sex is somehow more worthy%2C more %5Bi%5Dreal%5B%2Fi%5D%2C than one conceived using medical technology.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EI gotta say that%27s pretty tragic-hipster of you.  It%27s like the guy I %0D%0A%3Eknew at WPI who used to not only drop bands he liked if they Sold Out %0D%0A%3Eand Went Mainstream%2C but stop listening to their poorly produced indie %0D%0A%3EEPs from before then%2C too. %0D%0A%0D%0AUm%2C yeah%2C no. It%27s more that knowing where it%27s going to go makes reading it again feel a bit ... pointless%3F I%27m not sure that%27s the right word. %5Bi%5DSymphony%5B%2Fi%5D is far from the only media I don%27t reread %28or other applicable re-consumption%29 for various reasons. In some cases%2C it%27s because I have rather fond memories of said media%2C but also remember enough to know that consuming it again %5Bi%5Dnow%5B%2Fi%5D would be a bad idea%2C because I%27d see so much more of the flaws than I did back in the day%2C and it%27d taint those positive memories too. %28That%27s far from the only reason%2C mind.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%3EFrom the context it%27s normally used it%2C I always %0D%0A%3E%3Efigured people thought I drowned puppies and pulled the wings off %0D%0A%3E%3Epixies. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EI know%2C right%3F  If I come across as defensive in my reply to that %0D%0A%3Epost%2C it may be because the jargon itself has become tantamount to an %0D%0A%3Eaccusation these days.  It%27s the 21st-century social discourse %0D%0A%3Eequivalent of questions like%2C %22So when did you stop robbing liquor %0D%0A%3Estores to pay for your heroin habit%3F%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C there %5Bi%5Dis%5B%2Fi%5D a small but highly-visible population who are noisily judgmental and seem to be more interested in showing off how much more socially aware they are than the next person on Tumblr or Twitter or whatever. They%27re not representative%2C however%3B they%27re mostly upper-middle-class straight white liberals who seem to prefer to assuage their liberal guilt with dominance displays %28you know%2C showing off the neck frill%2C scratching the dirt with their claws%2C that kind of thing%29 rather than actually %5Bi%5Ddoing%5B%2Fi%5D anything. The bulk of %5Bi%5Dactual%5B%2Fi%5D social progress comes from people who are in the trenches in DC and elsewhere doing things like %5Blink%3Awww.wspa.com%2Fstory%2F21504856%2Fcouple-arrested-in-asheville-gay-marriage-protest%7Cgetting arrested for the %22We Do%22 campaign%5D.%0D%0A%0D%0AAs for the term %22cisgender%22%3A the people who object most vehemently to the existence of the term tend to be %5Blink%3Atheterfs.com%7Cpretty terrible people%5D. It%27s a neutral descriptor%2C in and of itself%3B the purpose in creating it is so that%2C rather than having %22transgender%22 and %22normal%2C%22 implying that trans people are abnormal %28in a negative sense%29%2C we have %22transgender%22 and %22cisgender.%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EMy only beef with %22heteronormative%22 as a word %28and several other %0D%0A%3Egender-politics terms%29 is that it violates the expectation that %0D%0A%3Eprefixes and root words have consistent meaning%3A in the rest of the %0D%0A%3EEnglish language%2C %22hetero-%22 means %22differing%22 and %22normative%22 means %0D%0A%3E%22of%2C pertaining to%2C or attempting to establish a norm or standard%22%2C so %0D%0A%3Eby rights %22heteronormative%22 %5Bi%5Daught%5B%2Fi%5D to mean %22of%2C pertaining to%2C %0D%0A%3Eor attempting to establish a differing norm or standard%22. But of %0D%0A%3Ecourse it doesn%27t. %0D%0A%0D%0AThis reminds me of people who object to polyamory.%0D%0A%0D%0ANot the practice%2C the word.%0D%0A%0D%0ABecause it mixes Greek %28poly-%29 and Latin %28-amory%29 roots. It should %28they say%2C tongue firmly planted in cheek%29 be polyeros or multiamory.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn any event %22heteronormative%22 shares similar logic in its derivation as %5Bi%5Dhomophobia%5B%2Fi%5D%2C %5Bi%5Dtransphobia%5B%2Fi%5D%2C %5Bi%5Dcissexism%5B%2Fi%5D%2C %5Bi%5Dtransmisogyny%5B%2Fi%5D%2C and other terms we%27ve had to create%2C where the omitted components are understood. Essentially%2C it means the viewpoint%2C explicit or implicit%2C that heterosexual relationships between cisgender people are the norm%2C the default%2C and that%2C should relationships not of that nature be permitted%2C they acknowledge and honor it in some fashion. Anthy%27s %22child of love%22 bit is very heteronormative%2C the many triads that start off as a lesbian couple and then add a guy%2C that Anthy refers to Utena as her husband %28reflecting a heteronormative expectation of butch%2Ffemme pairings in lesbian relationship%29%2C that sort of thing.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%3ERegardless%2C you%27re right in assuming that I have zero interest in %0D%0A%3E%3Edebating whether Utena%27s relationship of Corwin is intended as some %0D%0A%3E%3Ekind of authorial refutation of her bisexuality %28NOTE%3A it isn%27t%29%2C %0D%0A%3E%3Ewhich is where context implies you were probably going with that. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EI don%27t think that%27s where Laudre was going%2C but then I may be blinded %0D%0A%3Eby the fact that it%27s pretty much impossible%3A Utena has both a husband %0D%0A%3Eand a wife. She%27s virtually the %5Bi%5Ddefinition%5B%2Fi%5D of %22bisexual%22. %0D%0A%0D%0AUtena%2C as portrayed in %5Bi%5DSymphony%5B%2Fi%5D%2C seems to be closer to a 0 on the Kinsey scale%2C with Anthy as the one woman she%27s openly attracted to both sexually and romantically%3B in the source material%2C it%27s less clear -- it seems to be an %22everyone is some degree of bi%22 sort of setting. %28And%2C in many cases%2C also live by the adage %22why go across the street when you can go across the hall%3F%22 But %5Bi%5DRevolutionary Girl Utena%5B%2Fi%5D is ... well. It%27s certainly %5Bi%5Dsomething%5B%2Fi%5D.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bhr %2F%5D%5Bsmall%5D%22Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately%2C it also brought mortis.%22%0D%0A - Kenneth Boulding%5B%2Fsmall%5D%5Bhr %2F%5D
1|1|0|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Gryphon||10:27:13|08/06/2014|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Aug-06-14 AT 12:25 PM (EDT)]%3EI suppose we%27ll just have to agree to disagree there.%0D%0A%0D%0AYou say that as if there%27s room for some ambiguity here.  This isn%27t a judgment call.  I%27m telling you that your assumptions about why that story arc went where it went %5Bi%5Dare wrong%5B%2Fi%5D.  Full stop.  You can insist that you aren%27t feeling it all you like%2C but that%27s on you.%0D%0A%0D%0A%28Christ%2C I think I finally know how Hideaki Anno feels.  %22%5Bi%5DYoouuuu%5B%2Fi%5D don%27t understand my %5Bi%5Daaaaarrrrrt%21%5B%2Fi%5D%22 %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EAnother part of it is that... well%2C after %0D%0A%3E%5Blink%3Awww.eyrie-productions.com%2FUF%2FFI%2FSOS%2Fbancroft-tower-1.txt%7Cshe explains how she%27s already in love with someone else%5D%2C that should%27ve %0D%0A%3Ebeen the end of it.%0D%0A%0D%0AOh%2C for - I just - %5Bi%5Dis your life not a process%3F%5B%2Fi%5D  Because you seem to be operating under the expectation that Utena%27s%2C Corwin%27s%2C and everybody else%27s isn%27t going to be.  It%27s very... pigeonholing.  %22This is your role.  You will remain in it.  There will be no adjustments.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AThere is a certain %5Bi%5Dirony%5B%2Fi%5D there.%0D%0A%0D%0A%28And%2C funnily enough%2C the process is %5Bi%5Dstill ongoing%5B%2Fi%5D%2C and I%27m getting shit about %5Bi%5Dthat too%5B%2Fi%5D%2C albeit not specifically from you.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EInstead%2C what comes after reminds me%2C in a very %0D%0A%3Euncomfortable way%2C of the implicit%2C toxic belief held by certain %0D%0A%3Egroups of people%2C usually young%2C geeky males%2C about certain other %0D%0A%3Epeople%2C usually women%2C to whom they have a one-sided romantic and%2For %0D%0A%3Esexual attraction.%0D%0A%0D%0AExcept that %5Bi%5Dit was never one-sided%5B%2Fi%5D%2C which Utena%27s own ruminations in the course of %5Bi%5DBancroft Tower%5B%2Fi%5D%2C to say nothing of various subsequent events %28%5Bi%5DMonolith%5B%2Fi%5D%2C anyone%3F%29 ought to have made pretty plain.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EThe belief is that%2C to the woman%2C %0D%0A%3Ethe man is a friend %28often expressed in such terms as %22just a friend%22 %0D%0A%3Eor %22friend zone%22 which carry the implicit assumption that anything %0D%0A%3Eother than a romantic and%2For sexual relationship with her is%2C %0D%0A%3Eultimately%2C an inherently lesser and unworthy thing%29%2C but if the man %0D%0A%3Econtinues spending time with her as her friend%2C he%27ll eventually have %0D%0A%3Eturned in enough friendship tokens that she%27ll suddenly see what a %0D%0A%3Ewonderful man he is and become thoroughly besotted. %0D%0A%0D%0AOh%2C horseshit.  Drawing that conclusion from the evolution of Corwin-and-Utena is like saying that because my couch is covered in slightly wrinkly grey leather%2C it must be an elephant.  You%27ve failed to check your own baggage at the door there%2C plain and simple.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EOne of the reasons that the whole Anthy%2FCorwin thing re%3A conceiving %0D%0A%3EUtena and Anthy%27s first child bothers me is because this echoes the %0D%0A%3Eabove to some extent%2C and it%27s also predicated upon the belief that a %0D%0A%3Echild conceived through heterosexual PIV sex is somehow more worthy%2C %0D%0A%3Emore %5Bi%5Dreal%5B%2Fi%5D%2C than one conceived using medical technology. %0D%0A%0D%0AI know I%27ve been over this in another thread pretty recently%2C but%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AA%29 She wasn%27t saying children born from medical intervention are%2C in and of themselves%2C Bad and Wrong%2C just that that kind of thing wasn%27t for her - she phrased it clumsily because she was under a lot of stress at the time%3B and%0D%0A%0D%0AB%29 %5Bi%5DShe might have been lying.%5B%2Fi%5D  She does that sometimes.  ... Quite a lot%2C actually%2C when she%27s trying to accomplish something that she doesn%27t feel she has time or mental bandwidth to explain to the muggles.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m not going to get drawn into the %22heteronormative%22 tar pit%2C except to note%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Ethat Anthy refers to Utena as her husband %0D%0A%3E%28reflecting a heteronormative expectation of butch%2Ffemme pairings in %0D%0A%3Elesbian relationship%29%2C that sort of thing. %0D%0A%0D%0AYeah%2C I%27m calling bullshit on this one too.  Utena is called Anthy%27s husband %5Bi%5Dbecause she%27s a prince%5B%2Fi%5D.  That%27s part of the %5Bi%5Dsource material%5B%2Fi%5D%27s gender politics baggage%2C not some kind of weird attempt at passive-aggressive activism on %5Bi%5Dmy%5B%2Fi%5D part%2C I mean for %5Bi%5Dfuck%27s sake%5B%2Fi%5D.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe relationships in the %5Bi%5DSymphony%5B%2Fi%5D stories%2C and indeed pretty much any story of mine that I can think of%2C have nothing to do with me having some kind of an %5Bi%5Dagenda%5B%2Fi%5D.  They%27re driven by the characters and their circumstances.  That%27s it%21  It%27s really that simple.  Ironically%2C it would occasionally be way%2C %5Bi%5Dway%5B%2Fi%5D easier for me if it wasn%27t%2C because then I would just be able to make them do whatever%27s easiest for me to clean up after%2C %5Bi%5Dwhich this obviously wasn%27t.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m trying to be patient and engaged here%2C I really am%2C but at this point it%27s fairly plain that my first instinct was right and I should just have stayed the hell away from this discussion.  There are assumptions at work on your end that are so ludicrous as to be sort of tacitly insulting%2C and besides%2C the whole problem is that looking-for-meat-in-the-produce-aisle thing again.  UF isn%27t some kind of exercise in metaphor-based social justice advocacy%2C it%27s fucking sci-fi-fantasy crossover fanfiction.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D
2|2|1|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|BobSchroeck||13:10:56|08/06/2014|%3EI%27m trying to be patient and engaged here%2C I really am%2C but at this %0D%0A%3Epoint it%27s fairly plain that my first instinct was right and I should %0D%0A%3Ejust have stayed the hell away from this discussion.  There are %0D%0A%3Eassumptions at work on your end that are so ludicrous as to be sort of %0D%0A%3Etacitly insulting%2C and besides%2C the whole problem is that %0D%0A%3Elooking-for-meat-in-the-produce-aisle thing again.  UF isn%27t some kind %0D%0A%3Eof exercise in metaphor-based social justice advocacy%2C it%27s fucking %0D%0A%3Esci-fi-fantasy crossover fanfiction. %0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s %22Death of the Author%22 in play%2C Gryph.  The only person who%27s not allowed a say in what you meant with your work is %5Bi%5Dyou%5B%2Fi%5D.  Your opinion is invalid and irrelevant to the discussion -- only outsiders are allowed true insight into your purpose.%0D%0A%0D%0ABleagh.%0D%0A%0D%0A-- Bob%0D%0A-------------------%0D%0AMy race is pacifist and does not believe in war.  We kill only out of personal spite.
3|3|2|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Gryphon||13:16:22|08/06/2014|%3EIt%27s %22Death of the Author%22 in play%2C Gryph.  The only person who%27s not %0D%0A%3Eallowed a say in what you meant with your work is %5Bi%5Dyou%5B%2Fi%5D.  Your %0D%0A%3Eopinion is invalid and irrelevant to the discussion -- only outsiders %0D%0A%3Eare allowed true insight into your purpose. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EBleagh. %0D%0A%0D%0ASee%2C Traitor was asking me a while ago why capital-C Criticism gets on my tits so%3F  This.  This is why.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D
4|3|2|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Nova Floresca||17:17:15|08/06/2014|Wait%2C I was under the impression %22Death of the Author%22 meant %22don%27t dig through the author%27s personal life for things to use against the work%22. %0D%0A%22This is probably a stupid question%2C but . . .%22
10|4|4|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|BobSchroeck||09:12:40|08/07/2014|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Aug-07-14 AT 09:13 AM (EDT)]%3EWait%2C I was under the impression %22Death of the Author%22 meant %22don%27t %0D%0A%3Edig through the author%27s personal life for things to use against the %0D%0A%3Ework%22. %0D%0A%0D%0AAt the risk of derailing this thread%2C I will %5Bi%5Dbriefly%5B%2Fi%5D state that while that is part of %22Death of the Author%22%2C it never was the %5Bi%5Donly%5B%2Fi%5D part of it.  The original essay which named and explicated the concept argued against including the author%27s %5Bi%5Dintentions%5B%2Fi%5D into analysis of the work as well as his biographical details and context.  %0D%0A%0D%0AOf course%2C the original essay was raising a point about a kind of literary observer effect -- how do the critic%27s own biases affect his ability to accurately determine the author%27s intent from the work itself%3F%2C to briefly and somewhat imprecisely put it -- but far too many self-congratulatory hack critics have pretty much redefined it as %22the foolish author has no idea what he%27s %5Bi%5Dreally%5B%2Fi%5D doing%2C only we enlightened elite do%22.%0D%0A%0D%0ALike I said%2C bleagh.%0D%0A%0D%0A-- Bob%0D%0A-------------------%0D%0AMy race is pacifist and does not believe in war.  We kill only out of personal spite.
11|5|10|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Nova Floresca||12:53:39|08/07/2014|%3ELike I said%2C bleagh. %0D%0A%0D%0AI failed my literary criticism classes in college%2C and that%27s starting to look like a good thing.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This is probably a stupid question%2C but . . .%22
14|5|10|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|laudre||14:25:10|08/08/2014|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Aug-08-14 AT 02:25 PM (EDT)]%3EAt the risk of derailing this thread%2C I will %5Bi%5Dbriefly%5B%2Fi%5D state that %0D%0A%3Ewhile that is part of %22Death of the Author%22%2C it never was the %0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5Donly%5B%2Fi%5D part of it.  The original essay which named and explicated %0D%0A%3Ethe concept argued against including the author%27s %5Bi%5Dintentions%5B%2Fi%5D %0D%0A%3Einto analysis of the work as well as his biographical details and %0D%0A%3Econtext. %0D%0A%0D%0AThat%27s a part I tend to agree with.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E... %5BF%5Dar too %0D%0A%3Emany self-congratulatory hack critics have pretty much redefined it as %0D%0A%3E%22the foolish author has no idea what he%27s %5Bi%5Dreally%5B%2Fi%5D doing%2C only we %0D%0A%3Eenlightened elite do%22.%0D%0A%0D%0ANo argument here. The way I tend to approach it is that the final authority on the work is the work itself%3B authorial intent is %5Bi%5Dinformative%5B%2Fi%5D but not %5Bi%5Ddefinitive%5B%2Fi%5D. There are %5Blink%3Awww.cracked.com%2Fblog%2F4-terrible-messages-that-girl-centered-ads-are-sending%2F%7Cgood%5D %5Blink%3Awww.cracked.com%2Farticle_21381_6-huge-marketing-campaigns-that-backfired-in-hilarious-ways.html%7Creasons%5D %5Blink%3Avalleywag.gawker.com%2Fsmiling-young-white-people-make-app-for-avoiding-black-1617775138%2F%2Bsambiddle%7Cfor this%5D%3B intending to communicate or portray one thing and ending up %5Blink%3A%2Fwww.glaad.org%2Fblog%2Fupdate-americas-got-talent-airs-song-mocking-trans-women%7Cwith something far more horrible%5D happens quite a bit%2C and it bites especially hard when %5Blink%3Alifetechniques.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F88709106065%2Fa-quick-comic-i-made-to-test-out-my-new-art%7Cit%27s part of a larger cultural trend%5D.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe above examples are rather extreme%2C but they%27re there to establish why %22death of the author%22 is a thing. It means that%2C although Zack Snyder was %5Blink%3Aen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSucker_Punch_%282011_film%29%7Ctrying to create a female empowerment fantasy and also make geek males feel guilty for male gaze and reduction of women to eye candy%5D%2C what came out was a misogynistic%2C exploitative mess that %5Blink%3Aharkavagrant.com%2Findex.php%3Fid%3D311%7Ccommits the same sins Snyder said he was trying to skewer%5D.%0D%0A%0D%0AAll of which rounds back to why the Corwin%2FUtena relationship %28and the Corwin%2FUtena%2FAnthy triad%29 ultimately killed my ability to enjoy %5Bi%5DSymphony of the Sword%5B%2Fi%5D. I get that Gryphon intended otherwise%2C but intention alone doesn%27t stop me from reading that progression in a far more unsettling fashion. It starts with this bit from %5Blink%3Awww.eyrie-productions.com%2FUF%2FFI%2FSOS%2Fbancroft-tower-1.txt%7CInterlude at Bancroft Tower No. 1 in D Minor%5D%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bpre%5D        %22Is that all you%27re going to say%3F%22 Corwin persisted.  %22What I%0D%0Amean is... aren%27t you going to give me the usual speech about how I%27m%0D%0Aa really great guy%2C and you like me a lot%2C and you hope we can still%0D%0Abe friends%3F%22%5B%2Fpre%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThat line of his%3F It reminds me of how %5Blink%3Acommunity.feministing.com%2F2011%2F11%2F13%2Fregarding-nice-guys-and-why-women-only-date-jerks-a-critique-of-a-masculine-victim-cult%2F%7CInternet %22Nice Guys%22 tend to view rejection%5D. His subsequent behavior towards her -- going out to spend time with just her%2C including extended trips with just of the two of them%2C behavior that%27s dating in all but name -- reads an awful lot like he%27s %5Blink%3Ajezebel.com%2Fdudes-stop-putting-women-in-the-girlfriendzone-1508177054%7Cput her in the girlfriend zone%5D%2C and he%27s taking advantage of her being in an emotionally vulnerable and isolated state %28consciously or otherwise%29 to level up from %22friend%22 to %22love interest.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AAlternatively%2C she%27s aware of what%27s going on with their not-dating%2C and that ... really doesn%27t let Corwin off the hook %28much%29%2C and it also means that%2C by poly standards%2C she%27s cheating on Anthy.%0D%0A%0D%0AEither way%2C it %5Bi%5Dskeeves me the fuck out%5B%2Fi%5D when their relationship goes from friendship to romance%2C because it reads to me as %5Bi%5Dvalidating%5B%2Fi%5D the Nice Guy victim complex at the very least%2C and perhaps also tacitly endorsing cheating.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bhr %2F%5D%5Bsmall%5D%22Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately%2C it also brought mortis.%22%0D%0A - Kenneth Boulding%5B%2Fsmall%5D%5Bhr %2F%5D
15|6|14|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Gryphon||14:48:40|08/08/2014|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Aug-08-14 AT 02:49 PM (EDT)]%3EAll of which rounds back to why the Corwin%2FUtena relationship %28and the %0D%0A%3ECorwin%2FUtena%2FAnthy triad%29 ultimately killed my ability to enjoy %0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5DSymphony of the Sword%5B%2Fi%5D. I get that Gryphon intended otherwise%2C %0D%0A%3Ebut intention alone doesn%27t stop me from reading that progression in a %0D%0A%3Efar more unsettling fashion.%0D%0A%0D%0AThat%27s as may be%2C but upon careful introspection%2C I find that it does absolve %5Bi%5Dme%5B%2Fi%5D of any need to feel as if I%27ve failed because %5Bi%5Dyou%5B%2Fi%5D Don%27t Get It%2C particularly since at this point it%27s dawning on me that you%27re %5Bi%5Dwillfully%5B%2Fi%5D Not Getting It out of some misplaced sense of obligation to Take a Stand.  This is the wrong place to be doing that.  It%27s like picketing a car dealership to protest abuses in the beef-cattle industry - makes no damn sense.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EIt starts with this bit from %0D%0A%3E%5Blink%3Awww.eyrie-productions.com%2FUF%2FFI%2FSOS%2Fbancroft-tower-1.txt%7CInterlude at Bancroft Tower No. 1 in D Minor%5D%3A %0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bpre%5D        %22Is that all you%27re going to say%3F%22 Corwin persisted.  %0D%0A%22What I mean is... aren%27t you going to give me the usual speech about how I%27m %0D%0Aa really great guy%2C and you like me a lot%2C and you hope we can still %0D%0Abe friends%3F%22%5B%2Fpre%5D %0D%0A%0D%0A%3EThat line of his%3F It reminds me of how Internet %0D%0A%3E%22Nice Guys%22 tend to view rejection. His subsequent behavior towards %0D%0A%3Eher -- going out to spend time with just her%2C including extended trips %0D%0A%3Ewith just of the two of them%2C behavior that%27s dating in all but name %0D%0A%3E-- reads an awful lot like he%27s %0D%0A%3Eput her in the girlfriend zone%5D%2C and he%27s taking advantage of her being in %0D%0A%3Ean emotionally vulnerable and isolated state %28consciously or %0D%0A%3Eotherwise%29 to level up from %22friend%22 to %22love interest.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AAll right%2C I%27m going to take one more hack at this%2C and then I%27m done with it%3A  %5Bi%5DYou are overanalyzing the %5Bb%5Dfuck%5B%2Fb%5D out of the entire thing.%5B%2Fi%5D  For one thing%2C the whole %5Bi%5Dpoint%5B%2Fi%5D of Corwin at that age%2C and indeed any age%2C is that when he says things that otherwise seem like they ought to involve weird buried-context ulterior-movie bullshit like the above%2C %5Bi%5Dthey don%27t%5B%2Fi%5D.  That%27s a recurring feature of his that I think a reasonably perceptive reader can%27t have missed... except possibly on purpose%2C because it%27s inconveniently out-of-line with her Purported Agenda Theory.%0D%0A%0D%0AFor instance%2C he asked her that in %5Bi%5DBancroft Tower%5B%2Fi%5D because she omitted it%2C and he was %5Bi%5Dseriously concerned%5B%2Fi%5D that%2C on top of failing at his first-ever attempt at romance%2C he%27d broken a friendship in the process.  His need to be assured that he hadn%27t%2C and his relief when that assurance was forthcoming%2C was exactly what it looked like.  He%27s not putting on some kind of calculated%2C manipulative act.  He%27s just a big-hearted%2C %5Bi%5Dopen%5B%2Fi%5D-hearted kid in a completely unfamiliar situation%2C playing it by ear.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EAlternatively%2C she%27s aware of what%27s going on with their not-dating%2C %0D%0A%3Eand that ... really doesn%27t let Corwin off the hook %28much%29%2C and it %0D%0A%3Ealso means that%2C by poly standards%2C she%27s cheating on Anthy. %0D%0A%0D%0ANo.  No%2C no%2C no%2C for %5Bi%5Dfuck%27s%5B%2Fi%5D sake.  Did you not notice any of the places where one%2C the other%2C or both of them %5Bi%5Dlooks directly %5Bu%5Dat%5B%2Fu%5D this%2C%5B%2Fi%5D or are you just ignoring them because they don%27t support your conspiracy theory%3F  Between %5Bi%5DMonolith%5B%2Fi%5D and %5Bi%5DKnights 3%5B%2Fi%5D inclusive%2C they both grapple with this apparent dichotomy %5Bi%5Dseveral times%5B%2Fi%5D%2C often in full view of one another.  There%27s no secret agenda happening there%2C just two young people in a complicated situation%2C making shit up as they go along and trying to do the best they can without making themselves miserable.  Jesus %5Bi%5DChrist%5B%2Fi%5D%2C why has every relationship got to be a some kind of ruthless %5Bi%5Dsub rosa%5B%2Fi%5D zero-sum game to some people%3F  Did I miss a %5Bi%5Dmemo%3F%5B%2Fi%5D  Are characters not allowed to just %5Bi%5Dbe in love%5B%2Fi%5D any more%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EEither way%2C it %5Bi%5Dskeeves me the fuck out%5B%2Fi%5D when their relationship %0D%0A%3Egoes from friendship to romance%2C because it reads to me as %0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5Dvalidating%5B%2Fi%5D the Nice Guy victim complex at the very least%2C and %0D%0A%3Eperhaps also tacitly endorsing cheating. %0D%0A%0D%0AAll of that is predicated on a frankly insulting assumption that Corwin%27s playing some kind of subtle%2C manipulative game%2C %5Bi%5Dmuch like Akio%27s%5B%2Fi%5D%2C with the mind and heart of a woman he loved before he even understood what that kind of love was%2C and that Utena would fall for that kind of thing twice.  If you really think either of those scenarios is even possible%2C let alone likely%2C then you have never understood Thing One about the character or the story arc and %5Bi%5DI cannot help you any further with that.%5B%2Fi%5D  Good day%2C madam.  %5Bi%5DI said good day%21%5B%2Fi%5D%2A%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A%5Bfont size%3D%221%22%5D%2A Obligatory %5Bi%5DWilly Wonka and the Chocolate Factory%5B%2Fi%5D reference to make it plain that I%27m not %5Bi%5Dcompletely%5B%2Fi%5D serious about the furious dismissal part%2C %5Blink%3Awww.catb.org%2Fjargon%2Fhtml%2FH%2Fha-ha-only-serious.html%7Cexcept I kind of am.%5D%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D
16|7|15|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Offsides||15:11:11|08/08/2014|%3EAll right%2C I%27m going to take one more hack at this%2C and then I%27m done %0D%0A%3Ewith it%3A  %5Bi%5DYou are overanalyzing the %5Bb%5Dfuck%5B%2Fb%5D out of the entire %0D%0A%3Ething.%5B%2Fi%5D  For one thing%2C the whole %5Bi%5Dpoint%5B%2Fi%5D of Corwin at that %0D%0A%3Eage%2C and indeed any age%2C is that when he says things that otherwise %0D%0A%3Eseem like they ought to involve weird buried-context ulterior-movie %0D%0A%3Ebullshit like the above%2C %5Bi%5Dthey don%27t%5B%2Fi%5D.  That%27s a recurring %0D%0A%3Efeature of his that I think a reasonably perceptive reader can%27t have %0D%0A%3Emissed... except possibly on purpose%2C because it%27s inconveniently %0D%0A%3Eout-of-line with her Purported Agenda Theory. %0D%0A%0D%0ANot going to get into the bulk of this discussion%2C but I did want to comment on this.  Personally%2C I have always interpreted Corwin to be one of those rare souls who not only can and should be taken at face value%2C but who essentially goes out of his way %28so to speak%29 to remind you of that fact whenever possible.  He doesn%27t just %5Bi%5Dmean%5B%2Fi%5D what he says%2C he %5Bi%5Dis%5B%2Fi%5D what he says.  Other than a few clear occasions when he%27s scheming to surprise someone%2C he%27s simply incapable of doing otherwise %28and even then%2C you know something%27s up even if you don%27t know what%29.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe problem with this is that there are so few people out there who actually behave like that%2C that many people are simply incapable of truly believing that %5Bi%5Danyone%5B%2Fi%5D could be that way%2C even a fictional character.  It%27s not that he%27s poorly written or inconsistent or any of the standard problems with a character that can make them unbelievable%2C it%27s that he%27s %22too good to be true%22%2C so people are looking for the catch.  The fact that there isn%27t one is irrelevant%3B either people will believe or they won%27t%2C and there%27s unfortunately nothing you can do about it.%0D%0A%0D%0AI know this doesn%27t help your interpretation of success%2Ffailure%2C but if it makes you feel any better I think you succeeded.%0D%0A%0D%0AOffsides%0D%0A%0D%0A%26%2391%3B...%26%2393%3B in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.%0D%0A    -- David Ben Gurion%0D%0AEPU RCW %23%26pi%3B%0D%0A%23include %3Cstdsig.h%3E%0D%0A%0D%0A
19|8|16|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|laudre||17:47:58|08/08/2014|%3EIt%27s not that he%27s poorly written%0D%0A%0D%0AEh%2C that%27s a separate discussion%2C and depends partly on how one defines %22poorly written.%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Eor inconsistent or any %0D%0A%3Eof the standard problems with a character that can make them %0D%0A%3Eunbelievable%2C it%27s that he%27s %22too good to be true%22%2C so people are %0D%0A%3Elooking for the catch.%0D%0A%0D%0ANeil Gaiman once put it this way%3A %22Life is always going to be stranger than fiction%2C because fiction has to be convincing and life doesn%27t.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AYes%2C this is actually a problem%2C at least for me%3B Corwin%27s supernatural gifts are actually %5Bi%5Dmore plausible%5B%2Fi%5D to me than the idea that anyone could be ... well%2C as Gryph%27s spirited defense upthread states. In many ways%2C Corwin is %5Bi%5Dtoo perfect%5B%2Fi%5D -- he just isn%27t believable to me.%0D%0A%0D%0AI don%27t have an agenda here%3B I%27m saying that the relationship skeeved me out%2C both in its potential back when SotS started%2C and when it became canon. It was much later that I managed to articulate why.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bhr %2F%5D%5Bsmall%5D%22Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately%2C it also brought mortis.%22%0D%0A - Kenneth Boulding%5B%2Fsmall%5D%5Bhr %2F%5D
17|7|15|||||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|trboturtle2||16:02:13|08/08/2014|Has it occured to some people that Gryphon and the other EPU writers are just trying to write good stories without any sort of an agenda%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAs a writer%2C I do not sit down and say to myself%2C %22I%27m going to include this point from my political%2Fsocal agenda.%22 I sit down and say%2C %22What does this story need%3F%22 If a stance I agree with comes up in my story%2C I don%27t call attention to it. My stories are just that%3B I%27m trying to entertain%2C not pushing any sort of position. I see no evidence the EPU staff are doing anything but writing complex stories%2C barrowing characters from vastly different series and wrapping them all togeter so they actually go together.%0D%0A%0D%0ASo%2C in those immortal words from MST3K%3A %22It%27s really just a show%2C so you really should relax.%22%0D%0A%0D%0ACraig
20|8|17|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|laudre||17:54:34|08/08/2014|%3EAs a writer%2C I do not sit down and say to myself%2C %22I%27m going to %0D%0A%3Einclude this point from my political%2Fsocal agenda.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AThe problem with the above thought is that you%27ve got some baseline%2C implicit assumptions and beliefs about how the world works%2C many of which you%27re likely not aware of. Everyone does%3B that%27s just part of the state of being human. That framework -- your acculturation%2C socialization%2C individual experience%2C your own brain chemistry -- informs everything you write.%0D%0A%0D%0AI%27ve talked about some major personal revelations and life changes I%27ve gone through over the years%2C and they tended to make me pretty starkly aware of many of the above that formed my own mental landscape. Further%2C as an economist%2C I have a professional obligation to identify unstated assumptions as they pertain to various questions%3B economics%2C being a social science that tends to look at large groups of people%2C means that those sorts of things tend to be rather large.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bhr %2F%5D%5Bsmall%5D%22Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately%2C it also brought mortis.%22%0D%0A - Kenneth Boulding%5B%2Fsmall%5D%5Bhr %2F%5D
21|9|20|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Terminus Est||19:00:39|08/08/2014|...You know%2C if you hate it this much%2C why are you still reading it%3F  Or fighting about it%2C for that matter%3F  Just curious.  Your opinion and your hangups aren%27t going to change anything here.  I%27m not trying to be discouraging or an ass%2C but... well%2C sometimes someone has to state the obvious.
26|10|21|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|laudre||21:21:04|08/08/2014|%3Ewhy are you still reading it%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A... er%2C I%27m not%3F As I%27ve said repeatedly%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAs for why I was still discussing it%2C above%2C was because Gryph expressed having second thoughts about it%2C though not for the reasons I%27ve outlined.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe topic%2C at this point%2C has run its course%2C however.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bhr %2F%5D%5Bsmall%5D%22Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately%2C it also brought mortis.%22%0D%0A - Kenneth Boulding%5B%2Fsmall%5D%5Bhr %2F%5D
41|11|26|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|The Traitor||16:02:17|08/13/2014|%3E%3Ewhy are you still reading it%3F%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3E... er%2C I%27m not%3F As I%27ve said repeatedly%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AForgive the obvious response%2C but%2C um...%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Ftreasure.diylol.com%2Fuploads%2Fpost%2Fimage%2F815472%2Fresized_picard-wtf-meme-generator-why-the-fuck-are-you-even-here-bbd154.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0A---%0D%0A%22She%27s old%2C she%27s lame%2C she%27s barren too%2C %2F%2F %22She%27s not worth feed or hay%2C %2F%2F %22But I%27ll give her this%2C%22 - he blew smoke at me - %2F%2F %22She was something in her day.%22 -- Garnet Rogers%2C %5Bi%5DSmall Victory%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AFiMFiction.net%3A we might accept blatant porn involving the cast of My Little Pony but as God is my witness we have %5Bi%5Dstandards%5B%2Fi%5D.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bsmall%5DPre-empting the riposte concerning my undisguised%2C heart-of-a-dying-sun intense loathing for RWBY with the brief reminder that this isn%27t a RWBY fan forum.%5B%2Fsmall%5D
22|9|20|||||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Droken||19:25:56|08/08/2014|%3E%3EAs a writer%2C I do not sit down and say to myself%2C %22I%27m going to %0D%0A%3E%3Einclude this point from my political%2Fsocal agenda.%22%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EThe problem with the above thought is that you%27ve got some baseline%2C %0D%0A%3Eimplicit assumptions and beliefs about how the world works%2C many of %0D%0A%3Ewhich you%27re likely not aware of. Everyone does%3B that%27s just part of %0D%0A%3Ethe state of being human. That framework -- your acculturation%2C %0D%0A%3Esocialization%2C individual experience%2C your own brain chemistry -- %0D%0A%3Einforms everything you write. %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd therein lies your difficulty%2C I think. As you state just after this%2C you have over the past few years dealt with powerful personal revelations and adjustments%2C and those are informing how you interact with and interpret everything you read. From what you%27re saying%2C it sounds to me as though you have become not so much %22starkly aware of%22 the baseline%2C implicit assumptions and beliefs of others%2C as you have become oversensitive to them. Like night-vision that you just can not turn off%2C even when having it on isn%27t practical.
25|10|22|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|laudre||21:19:10|08/08/2014|%3Eyou have become oversensitive%0D%0A%0D%0AWow%2C that%27s made me feel more like a woman on the Internet than anything else in the past week.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bhr %2F%5D%5Bsmall%5D%22Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately%2C it also brought mortis.%22%0D%0A - Kenneth Boulding%5B%2Fsmall%5D%5Bhr %2F%5D
31|11|25|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Gryphon||22:12:34|08/08/2014|%3E%3Eyou have become oversensitive%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EWow%2C that%27s made me feel more like a woman on the Internet than %0D%0A%3Eanything else in the past week. %0D%0A%0D%0AOne is loath to put words in someone else%27s fingers%2C but perhaps %5Bi%5Dhypersensitized%5B%2Fi%5D connotes a slightly less inadvertently judgmental shade of meaning.  In this context%2C you certainly seem to be perceiving monsters where there are only shadows at this point.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D
32|12|31|||||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Droken||22:46:49|08/08/2014|Yes%2C that is what I was going for%2C thank you.
30|9|20|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Gryphon||22:04:03|08/08/2014|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Aug-08-14 AT 10:04 PM (EDT)]%3E%3EAs a writer%2C I do not sit down and say to myself%2C %22I%27m going to %0D%0A%3E%3Einclude this point from my political%2Fsocal agenda.%22%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EThe problem with the above thought is that you%27ve got some baseline%2C %0D%0A%3Eimplicit assumptions and beliefs about how the world works%2C many of %0D%0A%3Ewhich you%27re likely not aware of. Everyone does%3B that%27s just part of %0D%0A%3Ethe state of being human. That framework -- your acculturation%2C %0D%0A%3Esocialization%2C individual experience%2C your own brain chemistry -- %0D%0A%3Einforms everything you write. %0D%0A%0D%0AYes%2C well%2C as you say%2C that%27s generally known as %5Bi%5Dhaving a worldview%5B%2Fi%5D.  I%27m not going to be lectured on what thoughtcrimes someone else may believe mine to contain.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D
18|6|14|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Nova Floresca||17:22:23|08/08/2014|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Aug-08-14 AT 05:23 PM (EDT)]%3E%5Bpre%5D        %22Is that all you%27re going to say%3F%22 Corwin persisted.  %0D%0A%3E%22What I %0D%0A%3Emean is... aren%27t you going to give me the usual speech about how I%27m %0D%0A%3Ea really great guy%2C and you like me a lot%2C and you hope we can still %0D%0A%3Ebe friends%3F%22%5B%2Fpre%5D %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EThat line of his%3F It reminds me of how %0D%0A%3EInternet %0D%0A%3E%22Nice Guys%22 tend to view rejection. His subsequent behavior towards %0D%0A%3Eher -- going out to spend time with just her%2C including extended trips %0D%0A%3Ewith just of the two of them%2C behavior that%27s dating in all but name %0D%0A%3E-- reads an awful lot like he%27s %0D%0A%3Eput %0D%0A%3Eher in the girlfriend zone%2C and he%27s taking advantage of her being in %0D%0A%3Ean emotionally vulnerable and isolated state %28consciously or %0D%0A%3Eotherwise%29 to level up from %22friend%22 to %22love interest.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0ATo quote Freud%2C %22sometimes a cigar is just a cigar%22. You seem to be reading this scene as if it%27s propaganda%2C and it%27s not. Neither Utena nor Corwin picked up an Advanced Gender Relations elective during their time in school%2C and because of that%2C they didn%27t realize that their relationship was inappropriate and so they went ahead and did what worked for them.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This is probably a stupid question%2C but . . .%22
23|6|14|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Matrix Dragon||20:51:57|08/08/2014|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Aug-08-14 AT 08:53 PM (EDT)]%3E%5Bpre%5D        %22Is that all you%27re going to say%3F%22 Corwin persisted.  %0D%0A%3E%22What I %0D%0A%3Emean is... aren%27t you going to give me the usual speech about how I%27m %0D%0A%3Ea really great guy%2C and you like me a lot%2C and you hope we can still %0D%0A%3Ebe friends%3F%22%5B%2Fpre%5D %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EThat line of his%3F It reminds me of how Internet %0D%0A%3E%22Nice Guys%22 tend to view rejection. His subsequent behavior towards %0D%0A%3Eher -- going out to spend time with just her%2C including extended trips %0D%0A%3Ewith just of the two of them%2C behavior that%27s dating in all but name %0D%0A%3E-- reads an awful lot like he%27s put %0D%0A%3Eher in the girlfriend zone%2C and he%27s taking advantage of her being in %0D%0A%3Ean emotionally vulnerable and isolated state %28consciously or %0D%0A%3Eotherwise%29 to level up from %22friend%22 to %22love interest.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0A...%0D%0A%0D%0AOr%2C and work with me on this%2C he%27s worried that%2C by telling her how he feels%2C he%27s destroyed the chances of a friendship continuing%2C because the whole romance thing is a risky line to cross%2C regardless of age%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s pretty simple to see. All you have to do is remember that most guys aren%27t %27Internet Nice Guys%27%2C and it%27s been pretty clearly established that Corwin is NOT AN ASSHOLE.%0D%0A%0D%0AYou%27re acting like Tumblr. That is not a good thing.%0D%0A%0D%0AMatrix Dragon%2C J. Random Nutter
27|7|23|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|laudre||21:21:33|08/08/2014|%3EYou%27re acting like Tumblr. That is not a good thing. %0D%0A%0D%0AI%27m a real girl%21 I%27m being mansplained at%21%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bhr %2F%5D%5Bsmall%5D%22Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately%2C it also brought mortis.%22%0D%0A - Kenneth Boulding%5B%2Fsmall%5D%5Bhr %2F%5D
29|8|27|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Matrix Dragon||21:36:09|08/08/2014|%3E%3EYou%27re acting like Tumblr. That is not a good thing. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EI%27m a real girl%21 I%27m being mansplained at%21 %0D%0A%0D%0A... Not sure if you%27re joking or being serious...%0D%0A%0D%0AMatrix Dragon%2C J. Random Nutter
36|9|29|||||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Proginoskes||12:45:54|08/10/2014|My guess would be %22both%22.
37|10|36|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|laudre||20:13:14|08/10/2014|%3EMy guess would be %22both%22. %0D%0A%0D%0AThink of it like a zen koan.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bhr %2F%5D%5Bsmall%5D%22Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately%2C it also brought mortis.%22%0D%0A - Kenneth Boulding%5B%2Fsmall%5D%5Bhr %2F%5D
5|2|1|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|The Traitor||20:52:18|08/06/2014|And y%27all chewed %5Bi%5Dme%5B%2Fi%5D out for aggression. %3D%5D%0D%0A%0D%0A---%0D%0A%22She%27s old%2C she%27s lame%2C she%27s barren too%2C %2F%2F %22She%27s not worth feed or hay%2C %2F%2F %22But %0D%0AI%27ll give her this%2C%22 - he blew smoke at me - %2F%2F %22She was something in her day.%22 -- Garnet Rogers%2C %5Bi%5DSmall Victory%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AFiMFiction.net%3A we might accept blatant porn involving the cast of My Little Pony but as God is my witness we have %5Bi%5Dstandards%5B%2Fi%5D.
38|2|1|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Mercutio||12:24:28|08/13/2014|Man%2C I wish I had decided to emerge from my self-imposed isolation a week earlier%2C because these two threads have been %5Bi%5Dawesome%5B%2Fi%5D.%0D%0A%0D%0A%28That%27s not sarcasm%2C by the way. I love arguing and literary criticism so much%2C you guys%2C you don%27t even know.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EB%29 %5Bi%5DShe might have been lying.%5B%2Fi%5D  She does that sometimes.  ... %0D%0A%3EQuite a lot%2C actually%2C when she%27s trying to accomplish something that %0D%0A%3Eshe doesn%27t feel she has time or mental bandwidth to explain to the %0D%0A%3Emuggles. %0D%0A%0D%0AIn all fairness%2C Ben... I suggested this as a possibility some time ago%2C and you had some %5Bi%5Ddeeply%5B%2Fi%5D uncharitable things to say about my views of women if I thought she was being manipulative in this instance.%0D%0A%0D%0A-Merc%0D%0AKeep Rat
39|3|38|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Gryphon||12:32:54|08/13/2014|%3E%3EB%29 %5Bi%5DShe might have been lying.%5B%2Fi%5D  She does that sometimes.  ... %0D%0A%3E%3EQuite a lot%2C actually%2C when she%27s trying to accomplish something that %0D%0A%3E%3Eshe doesn%27t feel she has time or mental bandwidth to explain to the %0D%0A%3E%3Emuggles. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EIn all fairness%2C Ben... I suggested this as a possibility some time %0D%0A%3Eago%2C and you had some %5Bi%5Ddeeply%5B%2Fi%5D uncharitable things to say about %0D%0A%3Emy views of women if I thought she was being manipulative in this %0D%0A%3Einstance. %0D%0A%0D%0ANo%2C I had deeply uncharitable things to say about your assertion that it was in some way %22awesome%22.%0D%0A%0D%0AI think it%27s a bit loathsome.  I%27m just acknowledging that she may have done it anyway.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D
40|4|39|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Mercutio||12:59:26|08/13/2014|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Aug-13-14 AT 01:04 PM (EDT)]%3ENo%2C I had deeply uncharitable things to say about your assertion that %0D%0A%3Eit was in some way %22awesome%22. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EI think it%27s a bit loathsome.  I%27m just acknowledging that she may %0D%0A%3Ehave done it anyway. %0D%0A%0D%0AAh%21 I see. That makes things clearer.%0D%0A%0D%0AI would%2C in fact%2C agree with you that it would be a bit loathsome. I just don%27t think that would preclude it also being awesome at the same time.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s like... mmm. Take the Anthy-on-Nanami action from the source materiel. What Anthy does to Nanami is kind of petty and cruel%3B Nanami is a deeply damaged adolescent girl who lashes out because she%27s emotionally traumatized%2C and Anthy is a deeply powerful witch many times Nanami%27s age who can read her like a book. So messing with Nanami%27s head the way Anthy does is kind of messed up.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s also awesome%2C though%21 She tricked Nanami into thinking she%27d laid an egg%21 She sent her on a maybe-real%2C maybe-hallucinated trek across the world in search of a body-switching spice%2C sent %5Bi%5Dsurfing elephants%5B%2Fi%5D to harass Nanami during said trek%2C and then had her familiar trip the girl at the finish line. That is %5Bi%5Dchoice%5B%2Fi%5D.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt helps that she isn%27t real%2C of course. Anthy-the-character can do stuff that is%2C narratively%2C pretty awesome%2C but that reflect less than well on Anthy-the-person.%0D%0A%0D%0AI feel the same way about her brother%2C really. Akio is deeply loathsome in all his forms%2C but he%27s also impressive. He did a lot of stuff that left my jaw hanging slack going %22Damn%2C yo. The writers know what they are doing here.%22%0D%0A%0D%0ATLDR%3A something can be narratively awesome without it necessarily being a positive or laudable thing for the people involved. Well%2C at least to me. I%27m not the arbiter of all things awesome.%0D%0A%0D%0AEDITED TO ADD%3A Also%2C I am always excited when you let Anthy%27s ruthless side shine through. I love me some moral ambiguity in my protagonists and my narratives. I know that%27s not really your thing on a large scale %28and there%27s nothing wrong with that%21%29 but it totally is mine. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A-Merc%0D%0AKeep Rat
6|1|0|||||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Proginoskes||01:40:30|08/07/2014|%3EThis reminds me of people who object to polyamory. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3ENot the practice%2C the word. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EBecause it mixes Greek %28poly-%29 and Latin %28-amory%29 roots. It should %0D%0A%3E%28they say%2C tongue firmly planted in cheek%29 be polyeros or multiamory. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EIn any event %22heteronormative%22 shares similar logic in its derivation %0D%0A%3Eas %5Bi%5Dhomophobia%5B%2Fi%5D%2C %5Bi%5Dtransphobia%5B%2Fi%5D%2C %5Bi%5Dcissexism%5B%2Fi%5D%2C %0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5Dtransmisogyny%5B%2Fi%5D%2C and other terms we%27ve had to create%2C where the %0D%0A%3Eomitted components are understood.%0D%0A%0D%0AI know what the words mean%2C and regret their necessity. I was in fact mostly joking%2C and attempting to subtly suggest that Gryph%27s syllable-count-based complaint was similarly ridiculous. %28My complaint %5Bi%5Dis%5B%2Fi%5D sincere%2C from a philological perspective %28it makes much more sense than complaining about mixing Greek stems and Latin roots%2C since the Romans themselves were guilty of that%29%2C but I do recognize that from a practical standpoint it%27s absurd.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EAnthy%27s %22child of love%22 bit is very heteronormative%2C%0D%0A%0D%0AGryph%27s already touched on this%2C but I%27ll try to clarify things by explaining what I think went through Anthy%27s mind to bring that scene about. You see%2C her reluctance towards ovifusion is a complete fabrication%2C designed to facilitate Plan%3A Complete the Circle. She took advantage of the fact that many people unthinkingly accept heteronormative hang-ups to create an excuse to ask Utena for permission to bed Corwin. Her main motive was to introduce the idea that %5Bi%5Deros%5B%2Fi%5D for Corwin takes nothing away from their marriage.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E the many triads that start off as a lesbian couple %0D%0A%3Eand then add a guy%2C%0D%0A%0D%0AAll%E2%80%A6 two of them%3F I mean%2C there haven%27t been that many lesbian couples in UF to begin with. I can only think of three in SotS%2C and two have added a male%2C so I suppose you%27re justified in saying %22most lesbian couples in SotS become ffm triads%22%2C but it%27s awfully thin data to be drawing conclusions from. %28I deliberately discounted Liza Shustal and Azalynn%3B they were both clearly bi before they entered their relationship. Besides%2C for them%2C Kurt Wagner%27s sex is an afterthought at best%3A his blue fur and tail is what caught their interest.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Ethat Anthy refers to Utena as her husband %0D%0A%3E%28reflecting a heteronormative expectation of butch%2Ffemme pairings in %0D%0A%3Elesbian relationship%29%0D%0A%0D%0AGryph treats this as a side-effect of Utena being The Prince. I would actually agree with you %E2%80%93 this %5Bi%5Dcould%5B%2Fi%5D be a sign of heteronormative thinking %E2%80%93 %5Bi%5Dif it were a part of a larger pattern%5B%2Fi%5D. But the rest of the pattern doesn%27t exist where I can see it. No such dynamic exists between Liza and Azalynn%2C Kate and Juri%2C Amanda Dessler and Rina Dragonaar%2C or Juniper and Gunnr.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EUtena%2C as portrayed in %5Bi%5DSymphony%5B%2Fi%5D%2C seems to be closer to a 0 on %0D%0A%3Ethe Kinsey scale%0D%0A%0D%0ASo she says%2C and I concede that she%27s not your typical 3. I have very little knowledge of the source%2C but I can%27t recall anything from SotS to disprove the idea that she%27s mostly %5Bi%5Da%5B%2Fi%5Dsexual. In Utena%27s case%2C %5Bi%5Dphilia%5B%2Fi%5D is prerequisite to %5Bi%5Deros%5B%2Fi%5D%2C and she doesn%27t seem to have much of anything in the %22base lust%22 department. In either case %283 or x%29%2C her claims of being almost 0 could easily owe more to a heteronormative cultural background than her own feelings.
7|2|6|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Gryphon||01:56:46|08/07/2014|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Aug-07-14 AT 01:59 AM (EDT)]%3EI deliberately discounted Liza %0D%0A%3EShustal and Azalynn%3B they were both clearly bi before they entered %0D%0A%3Etheir relationship.%0D%0A%0D%0AAzalynn would be a bit miffed that you%27re pigeonholing her as bisexual.  That%27s so... geminormative.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EBut the rest of the pattern doesn%27t exist where I can see %0D%0A%3Eit. No such dynamic exists between Liza and Azalynn%2C Kate and Juri%2C %0D%0A%3EAmanda Dessler and Rina Dragonaar%2C or Juniper and Gunnr. %0D%0A%0D%0AIf such a dynamic did exist between Amanda and Rina%2C one expects it would run counter to the expectations their job titles would imply.  I%27m just saying.%0D%0A%0D%0AI don%27t have a lot of time for that dominance-and-submission business%2C though%2C frankly.  I suppose that%27s probably vanillanormative of me.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%3EUtena%2C as portrayed in %5Bi%5DSymphony%5B%2Fi%5D%2C seems to be closer to a 0 on %0D%0A%3E%3Ethe Kinsey scale%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3ESo she says%2C and I concede that she%27s not your typical 3.%0D%0A%0D%0ASomewhere between 1 and 2%2C I should say%2C if only because Anthy would probably take exception to her husband making love to her being filed as %22incidental homosexuality%22. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EI have very %0D%0A%3Elittle knowledge of the source%2C but I can%27t recall anything from SotS %0D%0A%3Eto disprove the idea that she%27s mostly %5Bi%5Da%5B%2Fi%5Dsexual.%0D%0A%0D%0A... Wait%2C what%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EIn Utena%27s %0D%0A%3Ecase%2C %5Bi%5Dphilia%5B%2Fi%5D is prerequisite to %5Bi%5Deros%5B%2Fi%5D%2C and she doesn%27t %0D%0A%3Eseem to have much of anything in the %22base lust%22 department.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn fairness to Utena%2C that doesn%27t indicate that she%27s somehow not a sexual being.  %28In D%C3%ACqi%C3%BA alone%2C there%27s a certain clearing up on the mountain road outside Republic City that would beg to differ with your assessment there.  And a suite at the Phoenix House Hotel.  And a dark corner on the observation deck of the Harmony Tower.  And one of the staterooms aboard the %5Bi%5DMirai%5B%2Fi%5D.  And the ensuite shower in the big house on Air Temple Island.  Among other places. %3A%29  It indicates that she%27s wary of %22base lust%22%2C and for very good reason.  As a teenager%2C she got burned twice by responding to the %22oh %27ello%22 system call%2C once %5Bi%5Dincredibly%5B%2Fi%5D badly%2C once just to the tune of a really unpleasant evening reliving the first time.  Even the dumbest animal eventually learns not to stick its nose in a fire%2C but her not sticking her nose in fires doesn%27t mean she somehow can%27t %5Bi%5Dperceive%5B%2Fi%5D them%2C to thoroughly belabor the metaphor.%0D%0A%0D%0ABesides%2C how would you %22disprove the idea that she%27s mostly asexual%22 by looking at stories where she%27s in stable relationships%3F  Count up the number of scenes in which she%27s not looking at someone other than her partners and thinking%2C %5Bi%5DYes please%2C I%27ll have some of that%5B%2Fi%5D%3F  That%27s not really her %5Bi%5Dstyle%5B%2Fi%5D.  Doesn%27t mean she%27s asexual.  I mean what%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D
8|3|7|||||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Proginoskes||02:03:56|08/07/2014|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Aug-08-14 AT 10:54 AM (EDT)]This is what I get for posting without a sanity check.%0D%0A%0D%0AEdit for clarity%3A That is to say%2C this is what I deserve to get for posting without doing a sanity check.
12|4|8|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Gryphon||11:00:51|08/08/2014|%3EThis is what I get for posting without a sanity check. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EEdit for clarity%3A That is to say%2C this is what I deserve to get for %0D%0A%3Eposting without doing a sanity check. %0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C hey%2C at least the odd assertion in your post only baffled me%2C it didn%27t enrage and insult me.  That%27s a win in this thread%21 %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited  http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D
9|3|7|||||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Dwaggy||06:05:19|08/07/2014|Oi. I never understand when people pull things like these stories%2Fsituations apart. I literally look at it as %27this is the way it was%27 and don%27t worry about the source material. I mean- yeah any from an outside story may start with a particular thing- but this universe changes things in good ways. Honestly I love the relationship the Trinity has. It%27s awesome and well done- and I truly don%27t see why it should be any different. I%27ve reread all of symphony manymanymany times. It only feels weird%2Fawkward knowing that they are worrying more than they need to.%0D%0A%0D%0ANot sure if I%27ve said this before- the symphony stories rock. Thank you for writing them.
13|2|6|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|laudre||13:42:35|08/08/2014|%3EI have very %0D%0A%3Elittle knowledge of the source%2C%0D%0A%0D%0AThe source doesn%27t support Utena being any degree of asexual%2C but it %5Bi%5Ddoes%5B%2Fi%5D give plenty of reasons for her to be skittish about physical and emotional intimacy%2C and to have some trust issues.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Ebut I can%27t recall anything from SotS %0D%0A%3Eto disprove the idea that she%27s mostly %5Bi%5Da%5B%2Fi%5Dsexual.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn the text itself%2C I don%27t think there%27s much grounds to claim that she%27s asexual specifically%2C as opposed to the trust and intimacy issues above. Certainly%2C what I recall of the %5Bi%5DSymphony%5B%2Fi%5D material that addressed her history on Cephiro %28pre-Symphony%29%2C seem to support that interpretation%2C rather than asexuality.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EIn Utena%27s %0D%0A%3Ecase%2C %5Bi%5Dphilia%5B%2Fi%5D is prerequisite to %5Bi%5Deros%5B%2Fi%5D%2C %0D%0A%0D%0AThe term for that is %5Blink%3Awww.asexuality.org%2Fwiki%2Findex.php%3Ftitle%3DDemisexual%7Cdemisexual%5D. It%27s a relatively new term%2C as far as I know%2C and has emerged because%2C like %22pansexual%22 as opposed to %22bisexual%2C%22 or the -romantic suffix %28e.g. heteroromantic%2C homoromantic%29 in addition to the -sexual suffix%2C human sexuality is really really complicated and not remotely binary %28even on multiple axes%29. %28And that doesn%27t even touch on gender identity%2C which is no less complex but only tangentially related to sexual and romantic attraction and desire.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Eand she doesn%27t %0D%0A%3Eseem to have much of anything in the %22base lust%22 department. %0D%0A%0D%0ASee above about the intimacy issues%3B while it%27s been some time since I last read the stuff from before I gave up on Symphony%2C I got the impression that her recalcitrance had more to do with the way she was used and abused by Akio and Kouga %28as I recall%2C though it%27s been some time since I watched RGU in its entirety%29 and%2C well%2C Anthy still being out there.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EIn either %0D%0A%3Ecase %283 or x%29%2C her claims of being almost 0 could easily owe more to a %0D%0A%3Eheteronormative cultural background than her own feelings.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis is a bit of dissonance between RGU and SotS%3B in the anime%2C as I recall%2C being bi- or pansexual was the rule%3B the show was not remotely ambiguous about Kouga and Akio%2C and only somewhat ambiguous about those two and Saionji. Similarly%2C girls crushing on other girls %28if not much more%29 was pretty routine -- Utena and Juri%2C IIRC%2C both had substantial female fan clubs. %28There were a few people who had only a single target of attraction%2C at least functionally speaking -- Nanami%27s fixation on Kouga%2C for example -- but that doesn%27t invalidate the general impression. Nor does Miki%27s apparent asexuality.%29 SotS alluding to Cephiro having some degree of baseline homophobia in the cultural background is a bit at odds with that.%0D%0A%0D%0ASome of the RGU bit can be explained by Japanese cultural attitudes towards adolescent sexuality%2C in that %22experimenting%22 with the same sex %28as we%27d call it here in the West%29 is an accepted and normal part of growing up. %28This is more true for girls than boys%2C mind.%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bhr %2F%5D%5Bsmall%5D%22Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately%2C it also brought mortis.%22%0D%0A - Kenneth Boulding%5B%2Fsmall%5D%5Bhr %2F%5D
28|3|13|||||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Vorticity||21:24:23|08/08/2014|If you have watched %5Bi%5DRevolutionary Girl Utena%5B%2Fi%5D and you are still looking to find labels for people%27s sexuality%2C then you have learned nothing.%0D%0A%0D%0A-- %E2%88%87%C3%97V
33|4|28|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|laudre||14:09:10|08/09/2014|%3EIf you have watched %5Bi%5DRevolutionary Girl Utena%5B%2Fi%5D and you are still %0D%0A%3Elooking to find labels for people%27s sexuality%2C then you have learned %0D%0A%3Enothing. %0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FgKOtI9X.jpg%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bhr %2F%5D%5Bsmall%5D%22Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately%2C it also brought mortis.%22%0D%0A - Kenneth Boulding%5B%2Fsmall%5D%5Bhr %2F%5D
24|2|6|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Matrix Dragon||20:57:34|08/08/2014|%3E%28I deliberately discounted Liza %0D%0A%3EShustal and Azalynn%3B they were both clearly bi before they entered %0D%0A%3Etheir relationship. Besides%2C for them%2C Kurt Wagner%27s sex is an %0D%0A%3Eafterthought at best%3A his blue fur and tail is what caught their %0D%0A%3Einterest.%29 %0D%0A%0D%0AThat%2C and his love for swashbuckling might just outdo Liza. Let%27s keep in mind that when he was dead %28In Modern Marvel Comics%2C not UF%29%2C Kurt was travelling the afterlife in a pirate ship fighting demon pirates%2C usually with three swords and lots of glorious banter. And no one was at all surprised.%0D%0A%0D%0AMatrix Dragon%2C J. Random Nutter
34|1|0|||1||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|Peter Eng||02:11:56|08/10/2014|%3EThe belief is that%2C to the woman%2C %0D%0A%3Ethe man is a friend %28often expressed in such terms as %22just a friend%22 %0D%0A%3Eor %22friend zone%22 which carry the implicit assumption that anything %0D%0A%3Eother than a romantic and%2For sexual relationship with her is%2C %0D%0A%3Eultimately%2C an inherently lesser and unworthy thing%29%0D%0A%0D%0AWhich would be a problem if Corwin had behaved in any way like that.  Except that he never tried to cash in his nice-guy tokens%2C or showed any signs of acting like he had any such things.  Judging by the narrative%2C life would have been good enough for him if all he ever did with Utena was go out for dinner on Fridays.  Anthy practically had to stuff them in a closet and lock the door to get that to change.%0D%0A%0D%0APeter Eng%0D%0A--%0D%0AInsert humorous comment here.
35|2|34|||||RE%3A And then another day %28one day%2C continued%29|drakensis||03:14:16|08/10/2014|%3EWhich would be a problem if Corwin had behaved in any way like that.  %0D%0A%3EExcept that he never tried to cash in his nice-guy tokens%2C or showed %0D%0A%3Eany signs of acting like he had any such things.  Judging by the %0D%0A%3Enarrative%2C life would have been good enough for him if all he ever did %0D%0A%3Ewith Utena was go out for dinner on Fridays.  Anthy practically had to %0D%0A%3Estuff them in a closet and lock the door to get that to change. %0D%0A%0D%0AAs was pointed out%2C there%27s a repeated theme of Utena or Corwin deciding things were %27good enough%27%2C right up to the point where Anthy does push them together and they realise they can have more than %27good enough%27.