24||0|4611|0| 0|0|0|||1||Cantata%2C cont%27d|Gryphon||13:54:26|09/26/2015|%3Ei understand the idea of using the %0D%0A%3Echaracter dialogue from the Kancolle game%2C great timesaver in some %0D%0A%3Eways and helps easily establish%2C for those in the know%2C who is who and %0D%0A%3Ewhat their persona is like however many of the instances are so %0D%0A%3Ecompletely out of context if the fusion of Kancolle and Arpeggio is %0D%0A%3Eleaning more towards the Fog than the Kantai thatm%2C for me at least%2C i %0D%0A%3Ewas brought to a complete halt trying to parse why certain dialogue %0D%0A%3Ewould be used in scenes X%2C Y and Z when at that point human and fog %0D%0A%3Eare still technically in conflict. %0D%0A%0D%0ASome specific examples would probably help me address this%2C but in general%2C it%27s worth keeping in mind that the ships of the Midway Fleet are %5Bi%5Dnot%5B%2Fi%5D particularly in conflict with humanity at that point. They don%27t have any orders%2C and without orders%2C until they manifested their Mental Models %28which in most cases %5Bi%5Djust happened%5B%2Fi%5D the first time we meet them%29%2C they didn%27t have any opinions either.%0D%0A%0D%0AHaving just that minute developed the capability to %5Bi%5Dhave%5B%2Fi%5D opinions%2C and in the absence of orders%2C they have to figure out where they stand on everything that confronts them for themselves. That%27s a tall order at the best of times.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 1|1|0|||||RE%3A Cantata%2C cont%27d|mouse_rr||14:15:27|09/26/2015|%3ESome specific examples would probably help me address this%2C but in %0D%0A%3Egeneral%2C it%27s worth keeping in mind that the ships of the Midway Fleet %0D%0A%3Eare %5Bi%5Dnot%5B%2Fi%5D particularly in conflict with humanity at that point. %0D%0A%3EThey don%27t have any orders%2C and without orders%2C until they manifested %0D%0A%3Etheir Mental Models %28which in most cases %5Bi%5Djust happened%5B%2Fi%5D the %0D%0A%3Efirst time we meet them%29%2C they didn%27t have any opinions either. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EHaving just that minute developed the capability to %5Bi%5Dhave%5B%2Fi%5D %0D%0A%3Eopinions%2C and in the absence of orders%2C they have to figure out where %0D%0A%3Ethey stand on everything that confronts them for themselves. That%27s a %0D%0A%3Etall order at the best of times. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3E--G. %0D%0A%0D%0Athe first that comes to mind is - %22Feel free to rely on us%21%22 Ikazuchi added with a wink. - which is cute and all but fairly out of place in a first meeting with a complete stranger who may%2Fmay not be exactly friendly. none of the Fog characters%2C Iona not withstanding%2C have any reason to say such things to someone they just met. especially when%2C prior to the shutdown they were out doing routine %27war related activities%27 ala Tenryu and the destroyers on patrol out of Rabaul.%0D%0A%0D%0Aanother%2C though at that point less of an issue under the circumstances is Oyodo%27s %22Light cruiser %C5%8Cyodo. Please leave the fleet administration and supervision to me.%22%0D%0A%0D%0ATenryu%27s - %22The name%27s Tenry%C5%AB%2C%22 she said%3B then%2C with a decorative flourish%2C she leveled the point of her sword at his throat and asked with a low chuckle%2C %22Ya scared%3F%22 - seemed the most Fog-ish response though i cant say anything about her Kancolle persona%2C having made no appearancein the anime and not having played the game.%0D%0A%0D%0Ain the game context these kinds of statements are expected%2C the latter example 2|2|1|||1||RE%3A Cantata%2C cont%27d|Gryphon||14:25:10|09/26/2015|%3Ethe first that comes to mind is - %22Feel free to rely on us%21%22 Ikazuchi %0D%0A%3Eadded with a wink. - which is cute and all but fairly out of place in %0D%0A%3Ea first meeting with a complete stranger who may%2Fmay not be exactly %0D%0A%3Efriendly.%0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C that%27s just Ikazuchi. She%27s always like that. She just wants to get across the notion that DesDiv 6 is reliable%2C and doesn%27t know any more general way of saying it. Anyway%2C she was the quickest of the four to take a liking to him%2C for reasons which will be examined in the next line.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Enone of the Fog characters%2C Iona not withstanding%2C have any %0D%0A%3Ereason to say such things to someone they just met.%0D%0A%0D%0ANo%2C but they do have instincts - which%2C as it happens%2C they didn%27t have before%2C and are still getting used to the concept. That was kind of the idea%2C anyway.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Eanother%2C though at that point less of an issue under the circumstances %0D%0A%3Eis Oyodo%27s %22Light cruiser %C5%8Cyodo. Please leave the fleet %0D%0A%3Eadministration and supervision to me.%22 %0D%0A%0D%0AIt might be out of context%3B on the other hand%2C it might equally indicate that %26%23332%3Byodo has already figured out how the situation is likely to unfold. She%27s pretty sharp. Battleship-class processor in a light cruiser%2C y%27know. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0A%3ETenryu%27s seemed the most Fog-ish response %0D%0A%3Ethough i cant say anything about her Kancolle persona%2C having made no %0D%0A%3Eappearancein the anime and not having played the game. %0D%0A%0D%0AStrangely%2C Tenry%26%23363%3B%27s stock self-introduction line makes %5Bi%5Dmore%5B%2Fi%5D sense in %5Bi%5DCantata%5B%2Fi%5D than it does in the game%2C where she is%2C in essence%2C trying to intimidate her newly assigned commanding officer.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 3|3|2|||||RE%3A Cantata%2C cont%27d|mouse_rr||14:45:47|09/26/2015|%3ENo%2C but they do have instincts - which%2C as it happens%2C they didn%27t %0D%0A%3Ehave before%2C and are still getting used to the concept. That was kind %0D%0A%3Eof the idea%2C anyway. %0D%0A%0D%0Ahmm not sure i follow how that applies%2C i can see grudging trust in light of not 1 but 2 Fog ships in his company but it seemed to %27easily accepted%27 that early in the meeting between fog%2Fhuman.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%3Eanother%2C though at that point less of an issue under the circumstances %0D%0A%3E%3Eis Oyodo%27s %22Light cruiser %C5%8Cyodo. Please leave the fleet %0D%0A%3E%3Eadministration and supervision to me.%22 %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EIt might be out of context%3B on the other hand%2C it might equally %0D%0A%3Eindicate that %C5%8Cyodo has already figured out how the situation is %0D%0A%3Elikely to unfold. She%27s pretty sharp. Battleship-class processor in %0D%0A%3Ea light cruiser%2C y%27know. %3A%29 %0D%0A%0D%0Athis particular instance was a bit more understandable in the specific circumstance%2C Kongo%27s override brought together the last players and it is made clear shortly after that major discussion had already taken place in regards to him.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%3ETenryu%27s seemed the most Fog-ish response %0D%0A%3E%3Ethough i cant say anything about her Kancolle persona%2C having made no %0D%0A%3E%3Eappearancein the anime and not having played the game. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EStrangely%2C Tenry%C5%AB%27s stock self-introduction line makes %0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5Dmore%5B%2Fi%5D sense in %5Bi%5DCantata%5B%2Fi%5D than it does in the game%2C where %0D%0A%3Eshe is%2C in essence%2C trying to intimidate her newly assigned commanding %0D%0A%3Eofficer. %0D%0A%0D%0Aand this is where having never played the game and only having a passing knowledge of the vast array of characters it has makes it hard to comment on a given persona. i recognized her from artworks and the like but know nothing about her in game. i probably could have gone to the wikia and dug a bit to find out more about her but as it isnt a really big issue in itself i didnt bother.%0D%0A 4|4|3|||1||RE%3A Cantata%2C cont%27d|Nova Floresca||16:27:26|09/26/2015|%3E%3ENo%2C but they do have instincts - which%2C as it happens%2C they didn%27t %0D%0A%3E%3Ehave before%2C and are still getting used to the concept. That was kind %0D%0A%3E%3Eof the idea%2C anyway. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3Ehmm not sure i follow how that applies%2C i can see grudging trust in %0D%0A%3Elight of not 1 but 2 Fog ships in his company but it seemed to %27easily %0D%0A%3Eaccepted%27 that early in the meeting between fog%2Fhuman. %0D%0A%0D%0AI think the aspect you might be missing is derived from the manga version of Arpeggio%2C which didn%27t get explored much in the anime- the Fog are conditioned%2C designed even%2C for obedience. They need to fit in to the chain of command somewhere%2C even if that chain is only one link long%2C and the need is so powerfully ingrained that they will fall in and follow the first thing that gives them orders %28e.g. Kongou working for EarthForce even though she knows they%27re scum%29.%0D%0A%0D%0AConsider that the rest of the Fog ships at Midway just woke up to find they have no orders%2C triggering that need%3B they just manifested Mental Models%2C giving them access to emotions%3B and then they discover that a professional asshole %28and her Psi Corps handler%29 are coming to give them those orders whether they like it or not%2C and it%27s not surprising at this point that they%27re throwing themselves towards Option B.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%3E%3ETenryu%27s seemed the most Fog-ish response %0D%0A%3E%3E%3Ethough i cant say anything about her Kancolle persona%2C having made no %0D%0A%3E%3E%3Eappearancein the anime and not having played the game. %0D%0A%3E%3E%0D%0A%3E%3EStrangely%2C Tenry%C5%AB%27s stock self-introduction line makes %0D%0A%3E%3E%5Bi%5Dmore%5B%2Fi%5D sense in %5Bi%5DCantata%5B%2Fi%5D than it does in the game%2C where %0D%0A%3E%3Eshe is%2C in essence%2C trying to intimidate her newly assigned commanding %0D%0A%3E%3Eofficer. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3Eand this is where having never played the game and only having a %0D%0A%3Epassing knowledge of the vast array of characters it has makes it hard %0D%0A%3Eto comment on a given persona. i recognized her from artworks and the %0D%0A%3Elike but know nothing about her in game. i probably could have gone to %0D%0A%3Ethe wikia and dug a bit to find out more about her but as it isnt a %0D%0A%3Ereally big issue in itself i didnt bother. %0D%0A%0D%0AWhat makes Tenryuu%27s attitude even funnier is the fact that she is%2C in fact%2C outgunned by the Akatsuki sisters by a fair margin%2C and by everything else in the dock by a much%2C much greater margin.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This is probably a stupid question%2C but . . .%22 5|5|4|||1||RE%3A Cantata%2C cont%27d|Gryphon||16:38:01|09/26/2015|%3EWhat makes Tenryuu%27s attitude even funnier is the fact that she is%2C in %0D%0A%3Efact%2C outgunned by the Akatsuki sisters by a fair margin%2C and by %0D%0A%3Eeverything else in the dock by a much%2C much greater margin. %0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C except Akashi. But then she%27s not technically a warship. %3A%29%0D%0A%0D%0AAnyway%2C Tenry%26%23363%3B%27s got guts%2C and as %5Bi%5DKing of Braves Gaogaigar%5B%2Fi%5D teaches us%2C that makes up for shortfalls in any other area%21%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 9|4|3|||||RE%3A Cantata%2C cont%27d|rwpikul||20:25:10|09/26/2015|%3E%3ENo%2C but they do have instincts - which%2C as it happens%2C they didn%27t %0D%0A%3E%3Ehave before%2C and are still getting used to the concept. That was kind %0D%0A%3E%3Eof the idea%2C anyway. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3Ehmm not sure i follow how that applies%2C i can see grudging trust in %0D%0A%3Elight of not 1 but 2 Fog ships in his company but it seemed to %27easily %0D%0A%3Eaccepted%27 that early in the meeting between fog%2Fhuman. %0D%0A%0D%0AOne thing to remember is that the %27human%27 in that particular meeting is more than just that. There could be some level of instinctive reaction to the fact that they are%2C quite literally%2C meeting face-to-face with their god.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis could mean that they simply know that they can trust him%2C even if they have no idea why they know that. 11|5|9|||||RE%3A Cantata%2C cont%27d|mouse_rr||23:32:12|09/26/2015|%3EOne thing to remember is that the %27human%27 in that particular meeting %0D%0A%3Eis more than just that. There could be some level of instinctive %0D%0A%3Ereaction to the fact that they are%2C quite literally%2C meeting %0D%0A%3Eface-to-face with their god. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EThis could mean that they simply know that they can trust him%2C even if %0D%0A%3Ethey have no idea why they know that. %0D%0A%0D%0Aoddly enough that was an angle i had considered and while the i feel the term %27instinct%27 might be a bit much there is a clear meta connection%3A they are machines and he is lord of same. i mostly discounted it on the basis that under the seal he is heavily constrained. of course%2C not knowing the exact nature%2Flevel of seal or the full extent of his power%2C it is entirely possible that on some fundamental level he may not even be aware of he is radiating a power machines sentient%2Fother recognize in some fashion that equates to what some religious types feel when in %27the presence of the sacred spirit%27 or what have you. 14|6|11|||||RE%3A Cantata%2C cont%27d|Wiregeek||06:55:40|09/27/2015|Or look at pretty much anyone%27s reaction to Verthandi at any time. 18|7|14|||1||RE%3A Cantata%2C cont%27d|Terminus Est||17:01:49|09/28/2015|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Sep-28-15 AT 05:02 PM (EDT)]Pretty much this. Corwin%2C if I remember correctly%2C is one of the absolute highest-tier gods%2C in the same ranks as his mother and the other Norns. So%2C even sealed%2C he basically has an aura that appeals to those he was given dominion over. Or that%27s how I read it.%0D%0A%0D%0AFor examples%2C look to other interactions between Corwin and other sentient machines - Dorothy%2C Eve and Wall-E come to mind%2C off the cuff%2C and Dorothy of course happened %5Bi%5Dbefore%5B%2Fi%5D his apotheosis and subsequent sealing. He%27s also been shown to be capable of %27speaking%27 in machine languages%2C including burst code %28though his accent is terrible%29%2C so there%27s a great chance he%27s communicating with them on more levels than just the one we%27re shown in the story%2C possibly without even realizing it himself. 6|1|0|||||RE%3A Cantata%2C cont%27d|zwol||16:43:16|09/26/2015|%3E%3Efor me at least%2C i %0D%0A%3E%3Ewas brought to a complete halt trying to parse why certain dialogue %0D%0A%3E%3Ewould be used in scenes X%2C Y and Z when at that point human and fog %0D%0A%3E%3Eare still technically in conflict. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3ESome specific examples would probably help me address this%2C but in %0D%0A%3Egeneral%2C it%27s worth keeping in mind that the ships of the Midway Fleet %0D%0A%3Eare %5Bi%5Dnot%5B%2Fi%5D particularly in conflict with humanity at that point. %0D%0A%3EThey don%27t have any orders%2C and without orders%2C until they manifested %0D%0A%3Etheir Mental Models %28which in most cases %5Bi%5Djust happened%5B%2Fi%5D the %0D%0A%3Efirst time we meet them%29%2C they didn%27t have any opinions either. %0D%0A%0D%0AIt didn%27t trip me up so much as make me stop and go %22...huh%2C that%27s odd%2C%22 but I%27ll admit to having a related confusion with the same bits mouse_rr points out downthread.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt seems pretty clear that the A-plot of %5Bi%5DArpeggio%5B%2Fi%5D did %5Bi%5Dnot%5B%2Fi%5D occur in UF%3B in particular%2C the %22you are the first person of Earth descent to make contact with any ship of the Fog%22 line rules out the existence of Gunz%C5%8D Chihaya during the original Fog War%2C and implies that Iona did not defect. Instead%2C it seems that Nagato and the other %22Big Seven%22 just packed up and left for reasons unknown%3B they left some ships in place but without orders%2C and most of them%2C not being self-aware or -motivated%2C just went into sleep mode until the %27present day%27. L%C3%A9onne%2C Kong%C5%8D%2C Maya%2C Iona%2C and a few others %5Bi%5Ddid%5B%2Fi%5D develop Mental Models at the close of the Fog War%2C but seem to have retained the %22no reason to do anything but follow my last orders%22 attitude anyway.%0D%0A%0D%0ASo%2C for me%2C this has three plot holes%2C and I%27m not sure they %5Bi%5Dare%5B%2Fi%5D plot holes rather than To Be Explained Later-s%2C but here they are anyway%3A first%2C sans the %5Bi%5DArpeggio%5B%2Fi%5D A-plot it%27s not clear why the Fog developed Mental Models in the first place%3B second%2C given that some of them %5Bi%5Ddid%5B%2Fi%5D%2C it%27s not clear why they retained the %22no reason to do anything but follow my last orders%22 mentality after 400 years of experience %28in L%C3%A9onne%27s case%2C I suppose maybe it%27s that she was content to hang out on the beach in Hawaii indefinitely%3F%29 and third%2C those of them that didn%27t have Mental Models seem to have come up to speed on interpersonal interaction very%2C very quickly after being told about the concept. That last bugs me the least%3B maybe they can copy each other%27s notes%2C as it were. 7|2|6|||1||RE%3A Cantata%2C cont%27d|Peter Eng||18:58:51|09/26/2015|%3E%0D%0A%3EIt seems pretty clear that the A-plot of %5Bi%5DArpeggio%5B%2Fi%5D did %0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5Dnot%5B%2Fi%5D occur in UF%3B in particular%2C the %22you are the first person %0D%0A%3Eof Earth descent to make contact with any ship of the Fog%22 line rules %0D%0A%3Eout the existence of Gunz%C5%8D Chihaya during the original Fog War...%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%0D%0A...as far as Yamato and rest of the Midway detachment know.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Eand implies that Iona did not defect.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd yet%2C if she didn%27t defect%2C why was she found alone%3F No black-marketeer would have passed up the chance to put multiple Fleet of Fog ships in the inventory.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3ESo%2C for me%2C this has three plot holes%2C and I%27m not sure they %0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5Dare%5B%2Fi%5D plot holes rather than To Be Explained Later-s%2C but here %0D%0A%3Ethey are anyway%3A first%2C sans the %5Bi%5DArpeggio%5B%2Fi%5D A-plot it%27s not clear %0D%0A%3Ewhy the Fog developed Mental Models in the first place%3B%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%0D%0AHypothesis%3A Iona did meet Gunz%C5%8D Chihaya%2C but the circumstances were different. Perhaps it was later in the war%2C perhaps Gunz%C5%8D met a different member of the Fleet first. Whatever happened%2C Iona was left alone when the Fleet left%2C to be recovered by Miss James%2C and later sold off in %5Bi%5DUnderground%5B%2Fi%5D. It%27s possible that if they ever find out what happened to make the Fleet leave%2C they%27ll learn something about Gunz%C5%8D Chihaya as well.%0D%0A%0D%0APeter Eng%0D%0A--%0D%0AInsert humorous comment here. 8|3|7|||||RE%3A Cantata%2C cont%27d|zwol||19:53:07|09/26/2015|%3E%3EIt seems pretty clear that the A-plot of %5Bi%5DArpeggio%5B%2Fi%5D did %0D%0A%3E%3E%5Bi%5Dnot%5B%2Fi%5D occur in UF%3B in particular%2C the %22you are the first person %0D%0A%3E%3Eof Earth descent to make contact with any ship of the Fog%22 line rules %0D%0A%3E%3Eout the existence of Gunz%C5%8D Chihaya during the original Fog War...%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3E...as far as Yamato and rest of the Midway detachment know. %0D%0A%0D%0AIona was right there%21 And she never said %5Bi%5Dshe%27d%5B%2Fi%5D lost her memory%2C apart from the Admiralty Code.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%3Eand implies that Iona did not defect.%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EAnd yet%2C if she didn%27t defect%2C why was she found alone%3F No %0D%0A%3Eblack-marketeer would have passed up the chance to put multiple Fleet %0D%0A%3Eof Fog ships in the inventory. %0D%0A%0D%0A%22Extended deep-cover assignment%22 %C3%A1 la L%C3%A9onne%3F 10|4|8|||1||RE%3A Cantata%2C cont%27d|Verbena||22:59:51|09/26/2015|%3E%3E%3EIt seems pretty clear that the A-plot of %5Bi%5DArpeggio%5B%2Fi%5D did %0D%0A%3E%3E%3E%5Bi%5Dnot%5B%2Fi%5D occur in UF%3B in particular%2C the %22you are the first person %0D%0A%3E%3E%3Eof Earth descent to make contact with any ship of the Fog%22 line rules %0D%0A%3E%3E%3Eout the existence of Gunz%C5%8D Chihaya during the original Fog War...%0D%0A%3E%3E%0D%0A%3E%3E...as far as Yamato and rest of the Midway detachment know. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EIona was right there%21 And she never said %5Bi%5Dshe%27d%5B%2Fi%5D lost her memory%2C %0D%0A%3Eapart from the Admiralty Code. %0D%0A%0D%0AI don%27t think Chihaya was around%2C honestly%2C but -something- had to have happened. The transmission about Mental Models rather implies that something happened with the Big 7 themselves--or even the Admiralty Code--that the Big 7 were not entirely equipped to deal with...such as developing emotions and opinions themselves. Since we don%27t know who was giving the Fog orders to begin with%2C any conclusions about why they stopped are pure speculation.%0D%0A%0D%0AGiven how complete the memory loss was%2C I%27m inclined to believe it was done on purpose. It was bungled pretty badly%2C though. I can%27t imagine whoever gave the order to pack up and go really understood how incredibly dangerous it was to leave Fog ships on Earth without a command structure. Certainly%2C I do not expect any of the Fog ships themselves to have given such an order%2C with that kind of disregard for the ships left on Earth. As a result%2C I don%27t believe the Admiralty Code is a Fog ship. But again%2C that%27s speculation.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3E%3E%3Eand implies that Iona did not defect.%0D%0A%3E%3E%0D%0A%3E%3EAnd yet%2C if she didn%27t defect%2C why was she found alone%3F No %0D%0A%3E%3Eblack-marketeer would have passed up the chance to put multiple Fleet %0D%0A%3E%3Eof Fog ships in the inventory. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3E%22Extended deep-cover assignment%22 %C3%A1 la L%C3%A9onne%3F %0D%0A%0D%0AIn truth%2C we know very little about Iona%27s circumstances. All we can know for sure is either the ship or the Mental Model was destroyed and the Union Core preserved. We don%27t even know which form she was in when it happened%2C or when. There%27s a 300 year gap%2C and it could have happened at any time.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn the anime%2C the I-400 series subs -were- intelligence operatives. What makes this interesting is it implies a subtlety that%27s somewhat contradicted by the straightforward lack of tactics they were known for in the Fog War. Is this a change of tactics late in the war%3F The beginning of whatever happened that made the Fog %28mostly%29 leave%3F Or is it an indication that the Admiralty Code was someone who was giving orders to the Fleet of Fog without quite realizing what they were dealing with%3F Again%2C speculation. But interesting.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AAnd%2C there%27s one very big alternate possibility%2C which is alluded to above with the comment that the Midway Fleet might not know about a first contact in the 21st century. What if the A plot -did- happen%2C Chihaya and all %28with UF-appropriate modifications%29 and Iona%27s Core was found out among the stars somewhere%2C not on Earth at all%3F With the Midway Fleet%27s memory having been wiped%2C anything they say has to be taken with a grain of salt.%0D%0A%0D%0ALastly%2C I will admit that I also thought they picked up on human interaction with ridiculous speed%2C even realizing they%27ve probably picked up human TV and whatnot before they ever had Mental Models. Given we know so little this early%2C I thought there might be a reason...what if this ISN%27T the first time they had Mental Models%3F What if whatever affected the Big 7 spread throughout the Fleet%2C just like it did in the anime%2C and someone %28Kongo is an obvious choice%29 resisted. Violently. By doing an inelegant mass wipe of every ship she could reach. Perhaps the ships that left wanted to take the rest of the Fleet with them but couldn%27t find them%2C or did not have the military strength anymore to reach them.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A------%0D%0A Fearless creatures%2C we all learn to fight the Reaper%0D%0A Can%27t defeat Her%2C so instead I%27ll have to be Her 12|5|10|||||RE%3A Cantata%2C cont%27d|Droken||23:32:49|09/26/2015|%3E%3E%3E%3Eand implies that Iona did not defect.%0D%0A%3E%3E%3E%0D%0A%3E%3E%3EAnd yet%2C if she didn%27t defect%2C why was she found alone%3F No %0D%0A%3E%3E%3Eblack-marketeer would have passed up the chance to put multiple Fleet %0D%0A%3E%3E%3Eof Fog ships in the inventory. %0D%0A%3E%3E%0D%0A%3E%3E%22Extended deep-cover assignment%22 %C3%A1 la L%C3%A9onne%3F %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EIn truth%2C we know very little about Iona%27s circumstances. All we can %0D%0A%3Eknow for sure is either the ship or the Mental Model was destroyed and %0D%0A%3Ethe Union Core preserved. We don%27t even know which form she was in %0D%0A%3Ewhen it happened%2C or when. There%27s a 300 year gap%2C and it could have %0D%0A%3Ehappened at any time. %0D%0A%0D%0AThere is one piece that nobody appears to have picked up on%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AIona glanced at Corwin%2C received a nod%2C and replied%2C %22Long-range submarine I-401.%22%0D%0A%22Four-oh-one%21 Huh. I thought you were scrapped%2C%22 Tenry%C5%AB said.%0D%0A%0D%0AThere-in lies an interesting possibility. Supposed the original shell of %5Bi%5DI-401%5B%2Fi%5D -was- scrapped%2C but the core was not%3F Placed back in stasis%2C left in a particular location%2C or whatever. That could explain why Miss James only had the single Core%2C and why it required a bit of work to reactivate. Also%2C if she was scrapped%2C Iona would then likely have been the -least- well-informed member of the group in terms of what happened after the war.%0D%0A 15|6|12|||||RE%3A Cantata%2C cont%27d|zwol||18:39:52|09/27/2015|We%27re going pretty far into RCW speculation territory here%2C so I%27ll just say two things%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EThere is one piece that nobody appears to have picked up on%3A %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3E%3EIona glanced at Corwin%2C received a nod%2C and replied%2C %22Long-range %0D%0A%3E%3Esubmarine I-401.%22 %0D%0A%3E%3E%22Four-oh-one%21 Huh. I thought you were scrapped%2C%22 Tenry%C5%AB said. %0D%0A%0D%0AI had assumed Tenry%C5%AB was referring to the %5Bi%5Doriginal%5B%2Fi%5D%2C non-Fog I-401 there%2C but now you point it out%2C that doesn%27t make any sense%3B why would Tenry%C5%AB know or care about that%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EThere-in lies an interesting possibility. Supposed the original shell %0D%0A%3Eof %5Bi%5DI-401%5B%2Fi%5D -was- scrapped%2C but the core was not%3F Placed back in %0D%0A%3Estasis%2C left in a particular location%2C or whatever. That could explain %0D%0A%3Ewhy Miss James only had the single Core%2C and why it required a bit of %0D%0A%3Ework to reactivate. Also%2C if she was scrapped%2C Iona would then likely %0D%0A%3Ehave been the -least- well-informed member of the group in terms of %0D%0A%3Ewhat happened after the war. %0D%0A%0D%0AI was also assuming that the briefcase sold to the Black Rose was bigger on the inside%2C and did in fact contain all of Fog%21I-401. %5Bi%5DEarthforce%5B%2Fi%5D has access to nanomaterial%2C but why would Akio%27s goons%3F 16|7|15|||1||RE%3A Cantata%2C cont%27d|Nova Floresca||19:07:59|09/27/2015|%3EI was also assuming that the briefcase sold to the Black Rose was %0D%0A%3Ebigger on the inside%2C and did in fact contain all of Fog%21I-401. %0D%0A%3E%5Bi%5DEarthforce%5B%2Fi%5D has access to nanomaterial%2C but why would Akio%27s %0D%0A%3Egoons%3F %0D%0A%0D%0ASee%2C I would have thought the opposite- I would expect a Duke of Hell to be able to shenanigan-ize a couple thousand tons of nanomaterial into existence a lot quicker than Earthforce.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22This is probably a stupid question%2C but . . .%22 13|1|0|||1||RE%3A Cantata%2C cont%27d|VoidRandom||01:56:32|09/27/2015|[updated:LAST EDITED ON Sep-27-15 AT 05:44 AM (EDT)]I%27m trying to imagine their Turing Board hearings. %28%22What do you mean%2C she%27s not all here%3F%22%29 I suspect that could be the final straw that would end up with Corwin being granted the divine authority over all sentient machines%3B on the grounds that his bailiwick is the closest%2C he lives in Midgard%2C and the Aesir Council would really like to have him and his Mom stop grousing about the Turing process.%0D%0A%0D%0A-VR %0D%0A%5Bfont size%3D%222%22%5DFail not in this charge at your peril...%5B%2Ffont%5D %0D%0A%22They copied all they could follow%2C but they couldn%27t copy my mind%2C %0D%0AAnd I left %27em sweating and stealing a year and a half behind.%22 17|1|0|||1||RE%3A Cantata%2C cont%27d|MoonEyes||06:45:16|09/28/2015|%3EThat is by far the most popular Vegan uvfgbevpny ebznapr novel among non-Vegans%2C%0D%0A%3Ewhich of course means that proper Vegan literati sneer at it with all four of%0D%0A%3Etheir upper lips.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%2ASNORKT%21%2A ...ow...%0D%0A%0D%0A...%21%0D%0AGott%27s Leetle Feesh in Trousers%21 19|2|17|||||RE%3A Cantata%2C cont%27d|TheOtherSean||20:09:55|09/28/2015|Google Chrome offered me the option to translate that%2C BTW. It wasn%27t too successful. I guess its not a began fan of Vegans. %3A%29 20|3|19|||1||RE%3A Cantata%2C cont%27d|MoonEyes||15:39:02|09/29/2015|%3EGoogle Chrome offered me the option to translate that%2C BTW. It wasn%27t %0D%0A%3Etoo successful. I guess its not a began fan of Vegans. %3A%29 %0D%0A%0D%0AJust because of that%2C I just had to. So%2C I went to Googles translation service%2C put in %27uvfgbevpny ebznapr%27%2C chose %27detect language%27 and to translate into English.%0D%0A%0D%0AIt decided that it was in Polish%28interestingly%2C something that has happened at other places%2C with other translations services%2C in plain English. %22Oh%2C I know that%21 It%27s POLISH%21%22 %2Aclick%2A %22Oh%2C silly me%21 It%27s ENGLISH%21 Tee hee%21%22%29%2C and that the translation was...ready for this%3F %27uvfgbevpny ebznapr%27%21 Yep%21 Impressive%2C innit%3F%0D%0A...%21%0D%0AGott%27s Leetle Feesh in Trousers%21 21|1|0|||1||Did You Know%3F|Gryphon||11:33:56|10/03/2015|Ship girls are superstitious about the word %22sink%22. They will always call that thing you find in kitchens and bathrooms a %22basin%22.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A%5Bfont size%3D%221%22%5Dthis is probably not true%5B%2Ffont%5D%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 22|2|21|||1||RE%3A Did You Know%3F|Verbena||11:54:29|10/03/2015|%3EShip girls are superstitious about the word %22sink%22. They will always %0D%0A%3Ecall that thing you find in kitchens and bathrooms a %22basin%22. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3E--G. %0D%0A%3E%5Bfont size%3D%221%22%5Dthis is probably not true%5B%2Ffont%5D %0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s precisely the kind of clever quirk that would have been true if they%27d had more than 12 episodes to work with. %3D%29%0D%0A%0D%0AI like it.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A------%0D%0A Fearless creatures%2C we all learn to fight the Reaper%0D%0A Can%27t defeat Her%2C so instead I%27ll have to be Her 23|3|22|||1||RE%3A Did You Know%3F|Gryphon||19:18:27|10/03/2015|%3E%3EShip girls are superstitious about the word %22sink%22. They will always %0D%0A%3E%3Ecall that thing you find in kitchens and bathrooms a %22basin%22. %0D%0A%3E%3E%0D%0A%3E%3E--G. %0D%0A%3E%3E%5Bfont size%3D%221%22%5Dthis is probably not true%5B%2Ffont%5D %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EIt%27s precisely the kind of clever quirk that would have been true if %0D%0A%3Ethey%27d had more than 12 episodes to work with. %3D%29 %0D%0A%0D%0ATo be fair%2C it probably wouldn%27t work in Japanese.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D 24|1|0|||1||RE%3A Cantata%2C cont%27d|Gryphon||18:43:42|11/24/2015|Looks like I missed this in the original thread%2C so%2C better late etc.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EHee hee%2C does this make Iona and Shioi twin sisters%3F%0D%0A%0D%0ANot quite%2C although they may choose to say that it does. See below.%0D%0A%0D%0A%3EI do have to %0D%0A%3Eadmit%2C I%27m still not entire sure how all of this works- at first%2C I %0D%0A%3Ethought that the girls were simultaneously ghosts of their old selves %0D%0A%3Egiven structure by the Fog technology%2C but I%27m still not entirely sure %0D%0A%3Ewhere the Arpeggio ends and the Kancolle begins. %0D%0A%0D%0AWell%2C it works something like this%3A%0D%0A%0D%0AShioi is the spirit of the original %5Bi%5DI-401%5B%2Fi%5D%2C resurrected in the body of a Fog ship %28the nanomaterial basis of which is made from the mass of her original hull%2C because what Corwin was actually %5Bi%5Dtrying%5B%2Fi%5D to do was convert that mass into a new body for Iona%29.%0D%0A%0D%0AFor her part%2C Iona was given that designation and programmed to manifest a vessel shell that resembles the original vessel when she was first activated%2C but as a %22true%22 as opposed to accidental ship of the Fog%2C she has no actual metaphysical connection to the WWII submarine. In absolute technical terms%2C she%27s an alien%28%3F%29 robot in a cunning disguise that is not entirely convincing from some angles %28her propulsion gear%2C for instance%2C is a dead giveaway%29.%0D%0A%0D%0ANo original Fog vessel has such a connection--that some of them show such close identification with their 20th-century models in their behavior %28Kong%26%23333%3B chiding Kaga about the dignity of the First Carrier Group%2C the Special Type III ships acting as if they%27re actual sisters%29 is... well%2C let%27s be generous and call it eccentricity rather than affectation. They%27re quite sincere%2C not putting on an act%2C but it%27s still basically roleplaying%3B there seems to be no genuine basis in their origins for this behavior.%0D%0A%0D%0A--G.%0D%0A-%3E%3C-%0D%0ABenjamin D. Hutchins%2C Co-Founder%2C Editor-in-Chief%2C %26 Forum Mod%0D%0AEyrie Productions%2C Unlimited http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eyrie-productions.com%2F%0D%0Azgryphon at that email service Google has%0D%0A%5Bi%5DCeterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.%5B%2Fi%5D