LAST EDITED ON 05-19-03 AT 03:26 PM (EDT)
 
Following my own advice and breaking this out into its own thread...

(By the way... I'll give credit where it's due. Everyone has done a -fine- job of keeping the NXE:TMP threads manageable over the last few days. Keep it up, here and on all of the other forums, and we'll all be quite grateful.)

This has been said before, but it looks like it needs to be clarified...

The Celestial backstory and mechanics in NXE are definitely modeled after those outlined in the In Nomine RPG. However, they are not the same -- IN was, quite simply, a starting point. Gryph and I picked and chose what we wanted to incorporate, what we wanted to throw away, and what we wanted to use with alterations.

The guideline for understanding the use of IN material in NXE is much the same as the rule for -any- source material in UF. Namely, "if it's not mentioned or shown 'on screen', it's not necessarily so." There are, to be blunt, certain bits of the Celestial stuff that we never fully pinned down, because they weren't going to be shown and they weren't going to have any effect on the story.

There have been points where we've set things up such that someone familiar with IN could "connect the dots" and make an educated guess at what was really going on. But those hidden bits were never something that we expected every reader (or any reader) to catch, and they were never meant to be an "essential" part of the reading experience. They're easter eggs, nothing more.

(In short... -speculation- is all well and good. Just don't assume that you -know- how the Celestial stuff works. :)

To cover a few specific points:

>Since Gabriel is clearly part of the council again, the above might
>not be relevant but most In Nomine players default to thinking of
>Gabriel as female.

As a matter of fact, it's not established whether or not Gabriel ever -left- the Council in NXE. (Hard to say. Possible.) I can assure you, though, the makeup and structure of the Council won't hold true to any Canon IN material, because we made -that- part up completely on our own. :)

>(Of course, the demise of Moloch as Demon Prince of
>Fire might have done Gabriel a favour in terms of sanity since she
>wouldn't be sharing her Word anymore).

It was determined -long- ago, in discussions between Gryphon and I, that Belial (of IN canon) has never been the Demon Prince of Fire in the NXE universe. That Word has belonged to Moloch ever since the Fall. We also decided that the cause of Gabriel's madness in canon IN (for those not in the know, she is at -least- five Cold Ones short of a 12-pak in the source material) was not the sharing of her Word with a Demon Prince. Rather, it was the sharing of her Word with a particularly -crazed- Demon Prince. Since Moloch is one of the most level-headed demons in Hell, Gabriel isn't nuts in NXE. (Excitable? Hell, yes. Diagnosably manic? Probably. Actually -insane-? No.)

Another note... as of the time of NXE:TMP, no other demon has attempted to reclaim the Word of Fire, primarily because no one in the Pit could be -entirely- sure that Moloch (or Lucifer) was actually dead. (Yes, many demons were present at the Second Impact, but most of them didn't survive it, and it was all very confusing, and misinformation is a way of life in Hell.) Since the holder of the Word of Fire was a very powerful Demon Prince and the Lightbringer's best pal, no one really felt like risking the consequences of trying to "steal" the word if he yet lived.

(After the Battle of Halifax, though, there will be enough concrete evidence to "prove" the availability of the word, so it's possible that someone will try for it. On the other hand, doing so would almost certainly piss off Gabriel, and there aren't that many candidates for the Word that could stand up to her right now... so maybe not.)

>As a side note on Laurence, despite the broadword up his arse, there
>were fairly solid reasons for him to be in command of Heaven's armies.
>He is one of Heaven's most capable asskickers and he was a
>favored servitor of the previous commander. The main alternatives were
>Michael, David and (at least in his own mind) Khalid.

Don't count on Khalid showing up. If it's not in the main sourcebook, Gryph hasn't seen it. ;)

(That doesn't mean that -I- can't suggest incorporating such things... but it's less likely, and my reaction to Khalid, Archangel of Faith falls squarely in the "eh, whatever" column. :)

A couple of final IN notes, off the top of my head...

- Azrael, Archangel of Vengeance, is entirely Gryph's creation. You won't find him in any canon IN materials. (If you see a reference to "Azrael" at all, it will probably be to the Archangel of Death, which Steve Jackson Games plans to keep unseen and mysterious -- mythical, even -- for as long as possible.)

- Since it has come up, and ties into Laurence's situation... yes, the incident involving Uriel, Archangel of Purity (in which he went on a little pogrom and received a similar "Time Out" from the Almighty) did happen in the NXE universe. Uriel has not been heard from since, and no one else has (or will ever) attempted to reclaim that Word. The granting of that particular Word is viewed by many in Heaven (and on the Council) as having been A Bad Idea in the first place.

	John Trussell Tertiary Battle Muse Eyrie Productions, Unlimited It's all just one mistake after another.

I did try to make the point in my post that I was spewing in IN material but didn't know how much if any applied to NXE. Rereading it, I probably didn't make it as clear as I intended. Thanks for making it clear.

I apologise for any confusion caused.

LAST EDITED ON 05-20-03 AT 08:50 AM (EDT)
 
>Following my own advice and breaking this out into its own thread...
>
>(By the way... I'll give credit where it's due. Everyone has done a
>-fine- job of keeping the NXE:TMP threads manageable over the last few
>days. Keep it up, here and on all of the other forums, and we'll all
>be quite grateful.)
>
>This has been said before, but it looks like it needs to be
>clarified...
>
>The Celestial backstory and mechanics in NXE are definitely modeled
>after those outlined in the In Nomine RPG. However, they are not the
>same -- IN was, quite simply, a starting point. Gryph and I picked
>and chose what we wanted to incorporate, what we wanted to throw away,
>and what we wanted to use with alterations.

*nodnod* That was clear from the beginning, and if I was implying that I automatically knew something because it was IN canon, I apologize.

>

>
>To cover a few specific points:
>
>>Since Gabriel is clearly part of the council again, the above might
>>not be relevant but most In Nomine players default to thinking of
>>Gabriel as female.
>
>As a matter of fact, it's not established whether or not Gabriel ever
>-left- the Council in NXE. (Hard to say. Possible.) I can assure
>you, though, the makeup and structure of the Council won't hold true
>to any Canon IN material, because we made -that- part up completely on
>our own. :)

Yep. IIRC (It HAS been a while for me) the Seraphim Council really was made up of Seraphim, not Archangels...and of the Archangels on the NXE Council, only two were Seraphim. I liked the modification to Dominic, though...I'd almost forgotten, for a moment, that NGE was a part of this!

>
>>(Of course, the demise of Moloch as Demon Prince of
>>Fire might have done Gabriel a favour in terms of sanity since she
>>wouldn't be sharing her Word anymore).
>
>It was determined -long- ago, in discussions between Gryphon and I,
>that Belial (of IN canon) has never been the Demon Prince of Fire in
>the NXE universe. That Word has belonged to Moloch ever since the
>Fall. We also decided that the cause of Gabriel's madness in canon IN
>(for those not in the know, she is at -least- five Cold Ones short of
>a 12-pak in the source material) was not the sharing of her Word with
>a Demon Prince. Rather, it was the sharing of her Word with a
>particularly -crazed- Demon Prince. Since Moloch is one of the most
>level-headed demons in Hell, Gabriel isn't nuts in NXE. (Excitable?
>Hell, yes. Diagnosably manic? Probably. Actually -insane-? No.)

Thank the heavens. =) Gabriel is my favorite Archangel, by far. I always thought a good chunk of her insanity, though, had to do with the bullshit she caught at the Seraphim Council just for doing what Yves -asked- her to do--read the Qu'ran to Mohammed. (Yes, she was a him at the time, and to this day, RL Islam holds that angels can only be male.)

>
>
>(After the Battle of Halifax, though, there will be enough concrete
>evidence to "prove" the availability of the word, so it's possible
>that someone will try for it. On the other hand, doing so would
>almost certainly piss off Gabriel, and there aren't that many
>candidates for the Word that could stand up to her right now... so
>maybe not.)

Fire is nothing if not vindictive...ironically enough, they can be sure she at least won't be cruel.

>
>>As a side note on Laurence, despite the broadword up his arse, there
>>were fairly solid reasons for him to be in command of Heaven's armies.
>>He is one of Heaven's most capable asskickers and he was a
>>favored servitor of the previous commander. The main alternatives were
>>Michael, David and (at least in his own mind) Khalid.
>
>Don't count on Khalid showing up. If it's not in the main sourcebook,
>Gryph hasn't seen it. ;)

*snicker* Khalid was sitting on a decent chunk of Discord, too, IIRC. It was a silent point underscoring the whole state of Heaven at the time that the Archangel of Faith was in the process of losing faith.

>
>(That doesn't mean that -I- can't suggest incorporating such things...
>but it's less likely, and my reaction to Khalid, Archangel of Faith
>falls squarely in the "eh, whatever" column. :)

Of the Archangels released after the main book, I only liked Zadkiel.

>- Since it has come up, and ties into Laurence's situation... yes, the
>incident involving Uriel, Archangel of Purity (in which he went on a
>little pogrom and received a similar "Time Out" from the Almighty) did
>happen in the NXE universe. Uriel has not been heard from since, and
>no one else has (or will ever) attempted to reclaim that Word. The
>granting of that particular Word is viewed by many in Heaven (and on
>the Council) as having been A Bad Idea in the first place.

I believe that was my comment, and I thank you for clearing that up. I was curious to see if Laurence was in exactly the same boat...and I think the answer is, 'if he's not, it's so close as to make no difference.' Thanks for the info!

"They say one should not speak unkindly of the dead, so I say, 'nice try'." --Lezard

(edited to add comments on Seraphim Council)

In the IN cannon, the Seraphim Council was originally comprised of Seraphim, and later on the other Archangels were brought into it as well. However, there has always been this feeling like there was an. hmm.. 'inner circle' of members on the council, the guys who were given the best, most visible seats, if you will. Big, important Words who make big, important decisions and have big, important jobs.

>In the IN cannon, the Seraphim Council was originally comprised of
>Seraphim, and later on the other Archangels were brought into it as
>well. However, there has always been this feeling like there was an.
>hmm.. 'inner circle' of members on the council, the guys who were
>given the best, most visible seats, if you will. Big, important Words
>who make big, important decisions and have big, important jobs.

And thus in turn have big, important heads?

Mistral