LAST EDITED ON Jun-22-01 AT 03:21 PM (EDT)

Okay, accidentally hit Enter too early... have to edit this post to actually put material in the topic.

Anyhow, been thinking about the situation at the end of 3:9... my current train of thought is that Lucifer, rather than absorbing DJ, assimilated him into his body as a protective mechanism. The first time, he did it out of shock; this time it was intentional, a way to avoid getting captured. It's a bit out-there, but within the realm of possibility. It's require some method of absorbing without leaving any carbon or water in the LCL, though, which makes it far less likely.

My current theory about DJ's talent is that both of the two theories are true: that being absorbed by EVA-01 burnt out his talent except for Lucifer himself. He can obviously still pilot Lucifer, after all.
-Eliot "Wanted to write more, but in a hurry" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>-=()=-

Concise, to the point, and rich in symbolism, but wrong.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>Concise, to the point, and rich in symbolism, but wrong.

How did I know this was going to happen... :(

Damn the Enter key. Damn it to hell. Damn this whole freaking Compaq, and may God have mercy on its computer soul.

My apologies, Gryphon. I didn't mean to appear to be posting blank messages.
-Eliot "Like the day was going so well beforehand" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>
>My current theory about DJ's talent is that both of the two theories
>are true: that being absorbed by EVA-01 burnt out his talent except
>for Lucifer himself. He can obviously still pilot Lucifer, after all.
>
>-Eliot "Wanted to write more, but in a hurry" Lefebvre
>

Nice theory, with one hole in it - it assumes that DJ had the ability to pilot any other EVA. It's entirely possible that his EVA talent developed a "resonance" with the first EVA he piloted, and that he won't be able to synchronize with any other EVA, or even the ARC series.

But it's far more likely that I'm so far out in left field that I'm in the parking lot.

Peter Eng
--
Not coming soon (or ever) from EPU:

Undocumented Features - Core: The Director's Cut.
(Due to improvements in the fanfiction-writing capabilities available to EPU, it is now possible to produce a "director's cut" of the core UF stories, except that the director has much better things to do.)

>Nice theory, with one hole in it - it assumes that DJ had the ability
>to pilot any other EVA. It's entirely possible that his EVA talent
>developed a "resonance" with the first EVA he piloted, and that he
>won't be able to synchronize with any other EVA, or even the ARC
>series.
>

Any maybe DJ didn't have a 'talent' for piloting the EVAs to begin with and Lucifer -recognizing the Eternal Soldier- infused him with it (making it work only for this one unit) in the first place .
I know it's far fetched , but that may explain the burnmarks on his hands after his first sortie in EVA-01(or maybe it was just that the plugsuit he was wearing had been made for someone else and I'm entirely wrong here).

-Griever
the master of overinterpretation .

>>Nice theory, with one hole in it - it assumes that DJ had the ability
>>to pilot any other EVA. It's entirely possible that his EVA talent
>>developed a "resonance" with the first EVA he piloted, and that he
>>won't be able to synchronize with any other EVA, or even the ARC
>>series.
>>
>
>Any maybe DJ didn't have a 'talent' for piloting the EVAs to begin
>with and Lucifer -recognizing the Eternal Soldier- infused him with it
>(making it work only for this one unit) in the first place .
>I know it's far fetched , but that may explain the burnmarks on his
>hands after his first sortie in EVA-01(or maybe it was just that the
>plugsuit he was wearing had been made for someone else and I'm
>entirely wrong here).
>

Not sure, but DJ DID attempt to synchronize with another unit before his 'burn out' and it responded to him <just not in a positive manner>. Since his subsequent attempt to to sync failed to show ANY response, I'd say the 'burn out' theory fits best <possible alternative: he can only get a response from pre-production units, the ones with another being's essence inside. Considering that unit 00 is ash, that does still limit him to unit 01>

-={(Astynax)}=-
"Darkness beyond Twilight"

>Not sure, but DJ DID attempt to synchronize with another unit before
>his 'burn out' and it responded to him <just not in a positive
>manner>. Since his subsequent attempt to to sync failed to show ANY
>response, I'd say the 'burn out' theory fits best <possible
>alternative: he can only get a response from pre-production units, the
>ones with another being's essence inside. Considering that unit 00 is
>ash, that does still limit him to unit 01>

The only problem I have with that is Jet Alone and the spontaneous hand-to-hand code. While that might have more to do with being the modern instance of Longinus than any EVA talent, one would think that a production model EVA is just as much a tool of war as JA is, and a similar aptitude would pertain.

The only connection I can think of is that JA has non-aware decision making software for autonomous use, which, in that particular time of stress for DJ, was enough to double in as an actual spiritual essence which DJ's specific talent could kick in. Since the production models have no such code (that I know of), and no real awareness, he can't make it go because there's nothing for his talent to 'talk to'. And if that were true, then it would also stand to reason that modified Jet Alone code could be supplied to a production model EVA (or possibly an ARC model) and then DJ would be able to make it work, though I'm sure it would pale in comparison to linking souls with the Lightbringer. :)

------------------------
Chad Collier--it's amazing what a fresh read will do for you, even if I am just wildly speculating...
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

>The only problem I have with that is Jet Alone and the spontaneous
>hand-to-hand code. While that might have more to do with being the
>modern instance of Longinus than any EVA talent, one would think that
>a production model EVA is just as much a tool of war as JA is, and a
>similar aptitude would pertain.

The Eternal Soldier, if he must, can fight with any weapon he can wield - but he still has to be able to pick it up in the first place.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Oooooh, I must reply.

Gryphon - are you saying that DJ's talent only works under the stress of combat? That testing in neutral setting would do very little? It's not a crisis situation...whereas his linkage to Lucifer (and Jet alone) were. So once DJ's "used" or been forced to "use" a particular type of weapon, he can always use it.

And since each EVA has its individual quirks...or perhaps because Lucifer is a diffent type of weapon than EVA O3, he doesn't "know" how to use it. And because he doesn't understand that (on a viseral and as well as conscious level) he doesn't understand that he needs to approach EVA-03 differently. His expectations were off -- he was looking for the same type of linkage he has with Lucifer--and so was his talent.

As Mr. Spock would say, fascinating.

A quick note on an early part of the hread. DJ's burning hands were caused by Rei's blood...not Eva 01.

T.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

>Gryphon - are you saying that DJ's talent only works under the stress
>of combat? That testing in neutral setting would do very little?
>It's not a crisis situation...whereas his linkage to Lucifer (and Jet
>alone) were. So once DJ's "used" or been forced to "use" a particular
>type of weapon, he can always use it.

That wasn't what I took away from Gryphon's post, although it's certainly an interesting theory. Jet Alone is a weapon - a very big, very ornate weapon, but a weapon just the same. As he's fighting EVA-05, he loses the ability to wield that weapon, and then watches as his weapon is out of his hand. That's when being the Eternal Soldier comes into play. He gets a fraction of a second to use his weapon, and he unconciously does just that via giving Jet Alone some hand-to-hand capability in that briefest of moments. Thus, the "I Am Hero" text reappearing, the sudden coding of Jet Alone's combat abilities long enough to disable the jamming device, et cetera.

DJ has been able to synchronize before in non-crisis situation - in synch tests, in the "dummy EVAs", and other times that I can't think of. But when he shouldn't be able to some things, being the Eternal Soldier gives him an added edge. Which is probably part of what allowed EVA-01 to generate Elerium-115 Colliders, for the record.
-Eliot "Yay, a topic that's starting series speculation" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>DJ has been able to synchronize before in non-crisis situation - in
>synch tests, in the "dummy EVAs", and other times that I can't think
>of. But when he shouldn't be able to some things, being the Eternal
>Soldier gives him an added edge. Which is probably part of what
>allowed EVA-01 to generate Elerium-115 Colliders, for the record.

Good point. I sweated that one...it's just that the dummy synch seems to be different than the EVA's themselves. After all, Rei had problems with EVA-00 but no problem with the dummy tests. The only cross compatibility test I remember reading about is the one where DJ says that EVA "smells like Rei". He also (like Rei) felt distinctly unwelcome, and only acheived 25%. Then it freaked out...until he consciosly demanded that it stop in order to save his friends from being smashed.

The relevant secion in in NXE 2-6. I almost copied it, but figured someone who hadn't gotten that far would hurt me.

I speculate that Moloch (being somewhat self-aware) is not a "normal" weapon, but simliar to Lucifer in being a fallen angel. The other EVA appear to be made with synthetic cores, and synthetic bodies based on EVAs 00 & 01. Perhaps the simliarity was enought to start synchonization (a "known" weapon), but Moloch's resistance (Lucifer didn't appear to resist) kept the rate down, until DJ is in a "combat" situation. Then DJ has total control. Wonder what his synch rate was like at that moment.

Thoughts?

speculatively,
t.

>-Eliot "Yay, a topic that's starting series speculation" Lefebvre
>-=()=-
>We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most
>of it.
>Electronic Transcendance Productions
>Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

>Good point. I sweated that one...it's just that the dummy synch seems
>to be different than the EVA's themselves.

Yes, it ends in an Angel attack. ;>

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

>The only cross compatibility test I remember reading about is the one where DJ
>says that EVA "smells like Rei". He also (like Rei) felt distinctly
>unwelcome, and only acheived 25%. Then it freaked out...until he
>consciosly demanded that it stop in order to save his friends from
>being smashed.

There were other tests that were talked about, and I assumed that they may include some cross-compatibility tests. Even if they didn't, DJ took part in them and synchronized with EVA-01 in a distinctly non-combat situation, so he wasn't using Lucifer as a weapon at those times, he was just synching up.

>I speculate that Moloch (being somewhat self-aware) is not a "normal"
>weapon, but simliar to Lucifer in being a fallen angel. The other EVA
>appear to be made with synthetic cores, and synthetic bodies based on
>EVAs 00 & 01. Perhaps the simliarity was enought to start
>synchonization (a "known" weapon), but Moloch's resistance (Lucifer
>didn't appear to resist) kept the rate down, until DJ is in a "combat"
>situation. Then DJ has total control. Wonder what his synch rate was
>like at that moment.

I still don't think of the EVAs in the scope of weapons. DJ, in that case, was indeed using the only weapons he had available to stop Moloch - his willpower and his EVA talent. He used them to kick Moloch into submission and shut the unit down, rather than synchronize with the unit. After all, Moloch was little more than a glorified zombie - quite different from the still-very-much-alive Lucifer.
-Eliot "Yay, less than an hour before work ends" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

I told myself that I had to do some work, but...

>There were other tests that were talked about, and I assumed that they
>may include some cross-compatibility tests. Even if they didn't, DJ
>took part in them and synchronized with EVA-01 in a distinctly
>non-combat situation, so he wasn't using Lucifer as a weapon at those
>times, he was just synching up.

In 2-6 Jon speculates if he will pilot a different EVA after 03's damage in space. "Perhaps if the cross-compatibility testing rumor were true, he might have a chance to learn more." Seems to indicate that this was the first time anyone tried it. Season 3, DJ is specially tested on EVA-03 to see what his damage was after his reserection.

I'll go out on a limb and say that DJ doesn't have a "special EVA talent". He just happens to be Longinus, and like anyone with a touch of the celestial, can interface. Shinji is clearly _not_ normal, but I won't speak to him. I wonder what Asuka's talent is? Other than unstoppable will, I haven't figured it out...or seen evidence of it.

OOOH, brain cramp. DJ has interfaced with another EVA...EVA-02. And he screws up Asuka's interface by thinking in English and not trying to interface. Only when he puts his will to it do they _both_ interface. In a combat situation. Maybe DJ can only lend his SSV pattern in a time of crisis. I think my theory still holds some water.

>I still don't think of the EVAs in the scope of weapons. DJ, in that
>case, was indeed using the only weapons he had available to stop
>Moloch - his willpower and his EVA talent. He used them to kick
>Moloch into submission and shut the unit down, rather than synchronize
>with the unit. After all, Moloch was little more than a glorified
>zombie - quite different from the still-very-much-alive Lucifer.

Funny, I don't see DJ as a weapon. I think of the EVAs like really, really cool hardsuits or like a much more interesting take on the whole Voltron experience. They idea of merging into a more powerful being without losing your soul. The production models are weapons -- they lack souls until the Children enfuse them. Lucifer and Moloch are special, but until awakened, still weapons.

I will also refer to 2-6 where John compares Moloch to Lucifer and notes how they are both different from EVA-03. He seems to think that they're alike.

eek, must work,
t.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

>I told myself that I had to do some work, but...

I've been telling myself that since the day I started working here, and I have yet to have it carry any actual force. Don't feel bad. ;>

>Funny, I don't see DJ as a weapon. I think of the EVAs like really,
>really cool hardsuits or like a much more interesting take on the
>whole Voltron experience.

Considering the ending of Bubblegum Crisis 2040, the comparison of the EVAs to hardsuits is downright eerie. Not quite the same thing... but very, very close.

>I will also refer to 2-6 where John compares Moloch to Lucifer and
>notes how they are both different from EVA-03. He seems to think that
>they're alike.

Well, they are the only EVAs that used to be separate entities. ;>
-Eliot "Gryphon already said most things I could have" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

I haven't seen the end of BGC2040 yet. If that was something even close to a spoiler you're going to be the recipient of a Vorlon Scout 'Mass Assault' Merit Badge test.....

--
Geoff Depew - Mephron
"Big O! Showtime!"

>I haven't seen the end of BGC2040 yet. If that was something even
>close to a spoiler you're going to be the recipient of a Vorlon Scout
>'Mass Assault' Merit Badge test.....

No, it wasn't a spoiler. You wouldn't even have the vaguest idea what I was talking about unless you'd seen Episode 16, and until Episode 19 it still wouldn't really make a whole lot of sense. Just made me think of a connection.

The last two DVDs are out, so you should really see the ending soon. Damn, but it's a good series.
-Eliot "Much better than the original" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>>Gryphon - are you saying that DJ's talent only works under the stress
>>of combat? That testing in neutral setting would do very little?

No, but another poster summed up part of what I was trying to say pretty well:

>That wasn't what I took away from Gryphon's post, although it's
>certainly an interesting theory. Jet Alone is a weapon - a very big,
>very ornate weapon, but a weapon just the same.

This is basically what I was saying - that Jet Alone is a weapon, and one which is built such that DJ can wield it, at which point his ability to make effective use of weapons comes into play. A production model EVA could be argued to be a weapon, or not, depending on how strict your definition is, but it doesn't really matter, because it's not a weapon that's configured such that DJ can pick it up and use it. Take a more mundane example - a Sidewinder missile is a weapon, but you wouldn't expect DJ to just be able to pick one up and employ it effectively. A production model EVA's got no handle as far as he's concerned. He can't pick it up and use it, so his talent does no good.

What happened during his one test with EVA-00 is a different matter entirely, and has to do with the way Moloch died and the confusion of echoes that incident left in what remained of him. I could elaborate, but it would give away something about the relationship between DJ and Lucifer that I'd rather leave to be disclosed in its own time.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>This is basically what I was saying - that Jet Alone is a weapon, and
>one which is built such that DJ can wield it, at which point his
>ability to make effective use of weapons comes into play. A
>production model EVA could be argued to be a weapon, or not, depending
>on how strict your definition is, but it doesn't really matter,
>because it's not a weapon that's configured such that DJ can pick it
>up and use it. Take a more mundane example - a Sidewinder missile is
>a weapon, but you wouldn't expect DJ to just be able to pick one up
>and employ it effectively. A production model EVA's got no handle as
>far as he's concerned. He can't pick it up and use it, so his talent
>does no good.

Wow. That's a much different spin. Hmm, gotta think about it as an interface thing, an intrinsic abilty. Ergo, if the weapon lacks a component that he cannot manipulate (ie, sidewinder w/o jet) DJ can't use it.

Then does that make Asuka the tool with which he helped her guide EVA-02?

>What happened during his one test with EVA-00 is a different matter
>entirely, and has to do with the way Moloch died and the confusion of
>echoes that incident left in what remained of him. I could elaborate,
>but it would give away something about the relationship between DJ and
>Lucifer that I'd rather leave to be disclosed in its own time.

Bien. I shalln't ask. Between you and truss, as well as the gentleman who started this, I've received much more insight than I expected.

Merci,
t.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

>Then does that make Asuka the tool with which he helped her guide
>EVA-02?

Yes. Which, yes, means that at certain times and under certain conditions, Asuka Soryu-Langley is a weapon. :)

--G.
["Well, I could have told you that," muttered Jon.]
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>Yes. Which, yes, means that at certain times and under certain
>conditions, Asuka Soryu-Langley is a weapon. :)

So what are her handles? ;>
-Eliot "I've got a guess..." Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>Yes. Which, yes, means that at certain times and under certain
>conditions, Asuka Soryu-Langley is a weapon. :)
>
>--G.
>["Well, I could have told you that," muttered Jon.]

Almost every redhead can be a weapon at some point.

One female friend of mine has been known what we call her 'mass murder' dress. And being a red-haired woman just makes it worse.

(Why a 'mass murder' dress? Well, some women dress to kill....)

--
Geoff Depew - Mephron
"Big O! Showtime!"

>Almost every redhead can be a weapon at some point.

Hmm... my girlfriend's ex-roommate was a redhead in addition to being one of the most evil and self-centered individuals that I've ever met...

Now I don't think I'll ever be able to think about her without getting a mental picture of Jet Alone wandering off against orders in NXE, while the EVA techs look on in partial terror and partial bemusement that the impractical and unlikely weapon turned out to be exactly that.
-Eliot "It's actually not a bad comparison to her" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>Yes. Which, yes, means that at certain times and under certain
>conditions, Asuka Soryu-Langley is a weapon. :)
>
>--G.
>["Well, I could have told you that," muttered Jon.]
>-><-

Or, Asuka is a tool. Which really doesn't make sense, if you think about it, but she still could be a tool.

I'm not cynical. I'm just overrealistic.

Twinkhood Productions, Limited.

Chairman, CEO and Non-Corporate God,

Innovafertimus.

>>Yes. Which, yes, means that at certain times and under certain
>>conditions, Asuka Soryu-Langley is a weapon. :)
>
>Or, Asuka is a tool. Which really doesn't make sense, if you think
>about it, but she still could be a tool.

She may not be a tool/weapon as far as most people would consider such, but to someone with a Gift like the Eternal Warrior would have, and under conditions like an Angel attack, she'd be a rather powerful weapon, I'd think... German, redhead, and a temper that really oughta belong to a drunk Irishman. I don't think many mortals would be stupid enough to get in her way, y'know?

Interesting. So, DJ does not have the EVA talent as such, but instead has, as the Eternal Soldier, the ability to use any weapon that a normal human could pick up and use.

This leads to a couple of interesting questions:

1. If DJ does not have the EVA talent, then what led NERV/SEELE to recruit him in the first place? Are his abilities as the Eternal Soldier capable of mimicing the EVA talent in certain situations, such as the tests used to identify the EVA talent? Or perhaps more intrigingly, did Natla _know_ what he was? In NXE 3-8, Gendou Ikari speculated that Natla wanted to find the Eternal Soldier and use him as a weapon. However, this was only speculation on his part, as was his implication that Natla did not know what DJ was.

2. What is the nature of the EVA talent? So far, everyone in the series who has piloted an EVA has been revealed to be a celestial of some sort, with the exceptions of:

A) DJ Croft, whose case has already been gone over in depth;
B) Shinji Ikari (who, judging by his generation of an AT field on two
separate occasions, has been touched by the celestial in some way)*;
C) Asuka Soryu-Langley

*Assuming it _was_ him who was generating it.

Eric J. Heckathorn
ericjh@stargate.net

LAST EDITED ON Jun-25-01 AT 07:36 PM (EDT)

>1. If DJ does not have the EVA talent, then what led NERV/SEELE to
>recruit him in the first place?

Initially, chronology. He happens to be of the correct age to have been possibly conceived at the time of the Second Impact. After that, the aptitude testing the Marduk Institute performed (which was disguised as testing for something else) indicated he'd be good in a fight, and had certain neural properties that would lend themselves to interface control. After that, it was just a matter of getting him into an EVA and trying it out. It was pure dumb luck that the only functional EVA at the time was EVA-01.

Oh - and he's Jon's half-brother, sort of. SEELE were interested to see how the closest relative to the non-celestial part of Jon's genetic code would perform under similar circumstances.

>2. What is the nature of the EVA talent?

The "EVA talent" is a notion conceived of by the Technical Division to explain why these children can do what they do. It's kind of like epicycles - there's no evidence that it actually exists per se, except that something must be permitting them to do so.

I can't address your individual examples without giving away the store, though.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>I can't address your individual examples without giving away the
>store, though.
>
>--G.

That's fine... I wasn't really expecting you to be able to say much in that department. I was more or less just throwing them out for discussion.

Eric J. Heckathorn
ericjh@stargate.net

>Oh - and he's Jon's half-brother, sort of. SEELE were interested to
>see how the closest relative to the non-celestial part of Jon's
>genetic code would perform under similar circumstances.

It's amazing how, after reading NXE for the Nth time, that still hadn't registered. I'm having a Babylon 5 moment here...

--
Merlin the Happy Pig
"Anyone care to explain every other nuance of the plot to me?"

>Oh - and he's Jon's half-brother, sort of. SEELE were interested to
>see how the closest relative to the non-celestial part of Jon's
>genetic code would perform under similar circumstances.

Okay, this just registered this time around. I know that Fox Mulder is DJ's father... so he's also Jon Ellison's father in some sense? And if that's so, then where does Jon's celestial DNA come from? Dana Scully?

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>>Oh - and he's Jon's half-brother, sort of. SEELE were interested to
>>see how the closest relative to the non-celestial part of Jon's
>>genetic code would perform under similar circumstances.
>
>Okay, this just registered this time around. I know that Fox Mulder
>is DJ's father... so he's also Jon Ellison's father in some sense?
>And if that's so, then where does Jon's celestial DNA come from? Dana
>Scully?

That's where the "sort of" part comes in. Gendou mentions to DJ that they used Mulder as the baseline for the E branch of Project Ascension; that's where Jon's human DNA component came from. The rest is based on DNA profiles they got from the celestials they had on hand - Lucifer, Moloch, and Reilael (yes, that means that Rei is sort of Jon's quarter-mother or some such - it's really not very relevant at that point, especially given that it's the celestial side of the equation we're talking about).

All of which, as I'm sure you've worked out already, means that Agent Scully's participation was not genetic. I guess they didn't have those creche chambers working yet when they prototyped the E series...

--G.
(yes, that means that Jon is the only one of them born of woman, as the Bard put it)
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>Gendou mentions to DJ that
>they used Mulder as the baseline for the E branch of Project
>Ascension; that's where Jon's human DNA component came from.

>Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
>Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Where, O Where is this? Did I skim that part in the story?

If everyone thought totally for themselves, there would be no Democrats.

TPL Non-Corporate God

Innovafertimus

>>Gendou mentions to DJ that
>>they used Mulder as the baseline for the E branch of Project
>>Ascension; that's where Jon's human DNA component came from.
>
>Where, O Where is this? Did I skim that part in the story?

Apparently so. It's in Exodus 3:4 - The Trigger Effect:

"Agent Mulder provided much of the baseline data for the 'E'
branch of Project Ascension," said Ikari. "Once those tests were
done, what was left was put into cryo-storage in case some of the data
needed to be re-examined later." Ikari pushed his glasses up his
nose, blanking out his eyes again, and went on, "If you had cycled
down -that- hibernaculum and opened it, you'd have been in for a nasty
shock."

>If everyone thought totally for themselves, there would be no
>Democrats.

YM "political parties of any kind". HTH. HAND.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>>>Gendou mentions to DJ that
>>>they used Mulder as the baseline for the E branch of Project
>>>Ascension; that's where Jon's human DNA component came from.
>>
>>Where, O Where is this? Did I skim that part in the story?
>
>Apparently so. It's in Exodus 3:4 - The Trigger Effect:
>
>
> "Agent Mulder provided much of the baseline data for the 'E'
>branch of Project Ascension," said Ikari. "Once those tests were
>done, what was left was put into cryo-storage in case some of the data
>needed to be re-examined later." Ikari pushed his glasses up his
>nose, blanking out his eyes again, and went on, "If you had cycled
>down -that- hibernaculum and opened it, you'd have been in for a nasty
>shock."
>

So are you saying that Gendou was indeed telling the truth and not jerking DJ's chain (or being made to jerk DJ's chain, to be specific)? And that Mulder's unrecoverable remains were what occupied that hibernaculum, meaning that the only way for him to suddenly turn up not-dead (as he does every other season on The X-Files) would either mean that a clone of him would appear (which might be lame) or that the remains were of a clone, and the real Agent Mulder is somewhere else yet to be discovered (which might not be lame)?

And answering that would be telling, wouldn't it? Nevermind. :)

------------------------
"saaaausaaaage... "
------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

>So are you saying that Gendou was indeed telling the truth

I state unequivocally that the part about Mulder having been used for the E-branch baselines is true, which makes DJ and Jon, in a technical sense, half-brothers (or thereabouts).

The rest?

Mu.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>>So are you saying that Gendou was indeed telling the truth
>
>I state unequivocally that the part about Mulder having been used for
>the E-branch baselines is true, which makes DJ and Jon, in a technical
>sense, half-brothers ¥or thereabouts¤©
>
>The rest?
>
>Mu©
>
>--G©
>-><-
>Benjamin D© Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
>Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www©eyrie-productions©com/

What if Mulder was part celestial? After all, he has been abducted by aliens© What if not content to merely observe, they changed his DNA? That may contribute to the connection btwn Jon and DJ, as well as partly explain DJ being touched by an evangelion ¥yes, I stole that from somebody, can't remember who¤©

I realize that you may not decide to answer this, given that anything is more than mu

tabris©
I believe that man should be an independent agent
in this universe; able to guide their own destiny©

That's kind of neat how your post has all the periods converted to copyright symbols. Please find out what's causing it and turn it off.

>What if Mulder was part celestial? After all, he has been abducted by
>aliens© What if not content to merely observe, they changed his DNA?

Interesting theory, but wrong.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>That's kind of neat how your post has all the periods converted to
>copyright symbols. Please find out what's causing it and turn it off.
>
I think it is something weird w/ Mozilla 0.9.2(Linux Mandrake 8.0rc1 and kernel 2.4.5-ac24) and the char mapping (it thought the charset was ARMSCII-8 (Armenian), it's been reset to Windows-1252. I couldn't see it in Mozilla, but links showed it.

>>What if Mulder was part celestial? After all, he has been abducted by
>>aliens. What if not content to merely observe, they changed his DNA?
>
>Interesting theory, but wrong.

Dang it. It would have been interesting. In the meantime I am earnestly awaiting NXE:TMP
>
>--G.
>-><-
>Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
>Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>All of which, as I'm sure you've worked out already, means that Agent
>Scully's participation was not genetic. I guess they didn't have
>those creche chambers working yet when they prototyped the E series...

Hmmm. Okay, until you laid this out, I'd figured that Scully's genetic material had been used for Jon's human DNA... the green eyes were what got me thinking that. I missed Gendou mentioning this bit about Mulder, otherwise I would have figured this out earlier. Even then, I would probably have figured that Scully had already been pregnant with Mulder's baby and they somehow managed to make the child into a half-celestial. (I'm an X-Phile and a 'shipper. Sue me.)

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>Hmmm. Okay, until you laid this out, I'd figured that Scully's
>genetic material had been used for Jon's human DNA... the green eyes
>were what got me thinking that.

Nope - the eyes are Lucifer's. That's why they have four pupils apiece...

>then, I would probably have figured that Scully had already been
>pregnant with Mulder's baby and they somehow managed to make the child
>into a half-celestial.

That would have meant our boy Fox was a very industrious boy indeed that last week of his life. Not (if you'll pardon the word) inconceivable, but given how busy that week was, not all that likely either. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>Nope - the eyes are Lucifer's. That's why they have four pupils
>apiece...

I can't express how wrong a picture I have of Scully sitting with her fellow abductees and cradling a little Jon right now...

>That would have meant our boy Fox was a very industrious boy indeed
>that last week of his life. Not (if you'll pardon the word)
>inconceivable, but given how busy that week was, not all that likely
>either. :)

And DJ was upset that people were upping his score without justification. He should see what his dad's score is now. (I'll attribute him being "well-read" to precisely that as well.)

There's no chance that Misato is really an age-regressed Samantha, is there? ;>
-Eliot "'Who's the paranoid FBI agent with a dead sister that gets all the chicks?' 'FOX!!' 'You damn right.'" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>-Eliot "'Who's the paranoid FBI agent with a dead sister that gets all
>the chicks?' 'FOX!!' 'You damn right.'" Lefebvre

This broke me but good. Bastard.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>-Eliot "'Who's the paranoid FBI agent with a dead sister that gets all
>the chicks?' 'FOX!!' 'You damn right.'" Lefebvre
>-=()=-

That line broke me beyond repair...

Pangaro
Maestro en las artes del escabio y la borrachera.

>-Eliot "'Who's the paranoid FBI agent with a dead sister that gets all
>the chicks?' 'FOX!!' 'You damn right.'" Lefebvre

"Her name is Bambi?"

"Yeah, both her parents were naturalists. Her theory is that UFO's are actually nocturnal insect swarms passing through electrical air fields."

"Her name is Bambi?"

------------------------
"saaaausaaaage... "
------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

>>-Eliot "'Who's the paranoid FBI agent with a dead sister that gets all
>>the chicks?' 'FOX!!' 'You damn right.'" Lefebvre
>
>"Her name is Bambi?"
>
>"Yeah, both her parents were naturalists. Her theory is that UFO's are
>actually nocturnal insect swarms passing through electrical air
>fields."
>
>"Her name is Bambi?"

"War of the Coprophages." I love that ep ^_^.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>-Eliot "'Who's the paranoid FBI agent with a dead sister that gets all
>the chicks?' 'FOX!!' 'You damn right.'" Lefebvre

Fox has a dead sister that gets all the chicks?

Ewww.

--rR

>
>>-Eliot "'Who's the paranoid FBI agent with a dead sister that gets all
>>the chicks?' 'FOX!!' 'You damn right.'" Lefebvre
>
>Fox has a dead sister that gets all the chicks?
>
>Ewww.

Must be a Goth thing.

> --rR

Mr. Fnord, no, I don't know why I said that, either.
--
The Jihad to Destroy Barney the Dinosaur
http://www.jihad.net/
"WE'RE STILL HERE, GODDAMMIT!"

>Fox has a dead sister that gets all the chicks?
>
>Ewww.

All the little Samanthas had to come from somewhere, didn't they?
-Eliot "Since I've not been able to check the forums in three days, I will be doing this for at least an hour" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>All the little Samanthas had to come from somewhere, didn't
>they?

Somebody had to put all this confusion here.

-={(Astynax)}=-
"Couldn't resist..."

>Interesting. So, DJ does not have the EVA talent as such, but instead
>has, as the Eternal Soldier, the ability to use any weapon that a
>normal human could pick up and use.
>

Yeek. DJ's got a modified Malakite of Creation attunement(1)? Come to think of it, I don't think he's had to use an improvised weapon yet, so I can't even assume that it's been weakened at all.

Peter Eng

(1)For those of you who don't have a copy of In Nomine, Malakim of Creation can use anything as a weapon. Marlael of _.45 Caliber Angel_ has this attunement as well.

>>Interesting. So, DJ does not have the EVA talent as such, but instead
>>has, as the Eternal Soldier, the ability to use any weapon that a
>>normal human could pick up and use.
>>
>
>Yeek. DJ's got a modified Malakite of Creation attunement(1)? Come
>to think of it, I don't think he's had to use an improvised weapon
>yet, so I can't even assume that it's been weakened at all.
>
>Peter Eng

I'll argue that one, noting that EVA-01 is the most improvised weapon in existence. They took the Prince of Darkness and tried to convert him into a tool for humans to operate.

--rR

>A quick note on an early part of the hread. DJ's burning hands were
>caused by Rei's blood...not Eva 01.

You mean to say that Rei's blood is somehow acidic?

LAST EDITED ON Oct-20-01 AT 04:18 PM (EDT)

>>A quick note on an early part of the hread. DJ's burning hands were
>>caused by Rei's blood...not Eva 01.
>
>You mean to say that Rei's blood is somehow acidic?

No; no it is not.

Props to the previous poster, though, as the only correspondent I've had who picked up on that particular detail.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>>A quick note on an early part of the hread. DJ's burning hands were
>>caused by Rei's blood...not Eva 01.
>
>You mean to say that Rei's blood is somehow acidic?

I just had a really strange image, no doubt aided by the recent bit of Children of an Elder God where all the proto-Reis got loose and started causing havoc, but spawned by this comment...

--Zenigame ("That's impossible. She'd have to be inside this room." The bridge staff hesitates, then looks up at the vents...)

>>>A quick note on an early part of the hread. DJ's burning hands were
>>>caused by Rei's blood...not Eva 01.
>>
>>You mean to say that Rei's blood is somehow acidic?
>
>I just had a really strange image, no doubt aided by the recent
>bit of Children of an Elder God where all the proto-Reis got
>loose and started causing havoc, but spawned by this comment...
>
>--Zenigame ("That's impossible. She'd have to be inside this room."
>The bridge staff hesitates, then looks up at the vents...)

I've yet to read CoaEG (holding off on reading any Eva-fic until I finish my own AU Eva story), but having read this and considering the idea of Rei and acidic blood...

...I now have the mental image of a miniature Rei tearing out of someone's abdomen, then dancing offstage while singing "Ragtime Girl."

My head can be a strange place to live.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

>The Eternal Soldier, if he must, can fight with any weapon he can
>wield - but he still has to be able to pick it up in the first place.

After some recent re-reading, this now makes how DJ took out Ramiel in 1:5 far more likely on a conceptual level.

--
Geoff Depew - Mephron
"Big O! Showtime!"

>The only connection I can think of is that JA has non-aware decision
>making software for autonomous use, which, in that particular time of
>stress for DJ, was enough to double in as an actual spiritual essence
>which DJ's specific talent could kick in. Since the production models
>have no such code (that I know of), and no real awareness, he can't
>make it go because there's nothing for his talent to 'talk to'. And

So he basically needs an interface card?

USB, anyone?

--
http://satya.virtualave.net/

>with and Lucifer -recognizing the Eternal Soldier- infused him with it

Soldier. In Nomine. Ow. My brain hurts after that possibly-completely-wrong idea clicked together.

>Anyhow, been thinking about the situation at the end of 3:9... my
>current train of thought is that Lucifer, rather than absorbing DJ,
>assimilated him into his body as a protective mechanism. The first
>time, he did it out of shock; this time it was intentional, a way to
>avoid getting captured. It's a bit out-there, but within the realm of
>possibility. It's require some method of absorbing without leaving
>any carbon or water in the LCL, though, which makes it far less
>likely.

I would argue that the first incorporation of DJ was just as intentional as the second. I'm not convinced the carbon/water/lcl mixture the first go around really meant anything, seeing as the plug ejected and dumped said contents. Lucifer himself gave back DJ afterwords meaning, to me anyway, that the mixture within really wasn't the elemental remains of DJ. If I had to venture a guess, the odd mixture the first time around was a marker for the friendly techs to know that he wasn't really gone. In the second situation, there wasn't going to be anyone like that around, and Lucifer was aware enough to know that if they thought there was a chance to extract even a lifeless DJ to clone and tamper with like Jon and Rei (and his father, for that matter, assuming what Ikari said before the Ethereal that was running him was killed is true) that they'd tear Lucifer apart to get to him. So Lucifer left no trace, and they seem to be subsequently uninterested in an unresponsive EVA.

That's just my thoughts so far, and I could be very, very wrong. :)

------------------------
"We are totally fluxed."
------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

>I would argue that the first incorporation of DJ was just as
>intentional as the second. I'm not convinced the carbon/water/lcl
>mixture the first go around really meant anything, seeing as the plug
>ejected and dumped said contents. Lucifer himself gave back DJ
>afterwords meaning, to me anyway, that the mixture within really
>wasn't the elemental remains of DJ. If I had to venture a guess, the
>odd mixture the first time around was a marker for the friendly techs
>to know that he wasn't really gone. In the second situation, there
>wasn't going to be anyone like that around, and Lucifer was aware
>enough to know that if they thought there was a chance to extract even
>a lifeless DJ to clone and tamper with like Jon and Rei (and his
>father, for that matter, assuming what Ikari said before the Ethereal
>that was running him was killed is true) that they'd tear Lucifer
>apart to get to him. So Lucifer left no trace, and they seem to be
>subsequently uninterested in an unresponsive EVA.

It's certainly possible, and it would make sense, considering that both times have been when DJ hit 1:1 synchronization for any meaningful length of time. (He hit 100% during the Skyfall Incident, but for maybe a few seconds at most, and he wasn't really doing anything during those seconds except standing and waiting for Rei to do her job.) Maybe hitting perfect synch requires the EVA to absorb the pilot - part of the reason why none of the production models could ever hit perfect 1:1. In every case where we've seen full synchronization - DJ/Lucifer in 2:9, Rei/Moloch in 3:8, and DJ/Lucifer in 3:9 - there's been some melding of pilot and Evangelion. One could argue that the only reason Rei wasn't absorbed by Moloch was because the circumstances were extremely unusual, and that most of what was happening was as a result of her being an angel.

There are, however, a couple reasons why I tend to doubt that the first time was intentional:

1. The carbon and water served to let the techs know that someone had been absorbed, but it certainly didn't help them figure out how to get DJ back. As near as Ritsuko, Truss, Maya, and everyone else could tell, DJ was gone forever, which was not a reassuring message for the poor NERV personnel.
   
2. Lucifer absorbed someone else beforehand, and it seemed to clearly be an accident.
   
3. I got the distinct impression, from the lines of the mysterious figure (Lucifer) at the release of DJ, that Lucifer did not originally intend to release the pilot. He changed his mind from DJ's actions and the plea of Rei and Jon, but it didn't seem like he was very pleased with DJ at that point.
   

It's well within the realm of possibility, but I think that the carbon-water mixture was DJ's physical remains (I have no doubt that Lucifer could regenerate his body). At this point, I think Lucifer's just regained enough of himself to not leave the evidence.
-Eliot "Well, Gryphon hasn't outright told me I'm wrong yet, so either he hates me or I'm on to something" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>Maybe hitting perfect synch requires the EVA to absorb
>the pilot - part of the reason why none of the production models could
>ever hit perfect 1:1. In every case where we've seen full
>synchronization - DJ/Lucifer in 2:9, Rei/Moloch in 3:8, and DJ/Lucifer
>in 3:9 - there's been some melding of pilot and Evangelion. One could
>argue that the only reason Rei wasn't absorbed by Moloch was because
>the circumstances were extremely unusual, and that most of what was
>happening was as a result of her being an angel.

We don't know if this happened in the case of the Rei prototype -- which did have the touch of the celestial, and still was absorbed.

>

I got the distinct impression, from the lines of the mysterious
>figure (Lucifer) at the release of DJ, that Lucifer did not originally
>intend to release the pilot. He changed his mind from DJ's actions
>and the plea of Rei and Jon, but it didn't seem like he was very
>pleased with DJ at that point.
>

Really?. I didn't see a stern Lucifer in that one. A curious Lucifer to be sure, but not an unhappy one. Afterall, DJ was tested but they both found out (or confirmed) what DJ's soul is like. I think Lucifer would have given DJ back if he had thought of it. I guess that time works differently for Lucifer than for the outside world. After all DJ's vision quest took 1 month in real time. It appeared to take only a few days in the vision.

>It's well within the realm of possibility, but I think that the
>carbon-water mixture was DJ's physical remains (I have no doubt that
>Lucifer could regenerate his body). At this point, I think Lucifer's
>just regained enough of himself to not leave the evidence.

I think that the two experiences were somewhat different.

The only similarity I can see is that DJ's physical body dies. This is confirmed both by the remains in the the first situation, and DJ's death cry in the second. In the first situation, the remains match DJ's and resemble the remains of the Rei prototype whose body disappeared. It is in Lucifer's capacities to grant a soul new/similiar body. Afterall we now have Tabriel.

In the second situation, DJ's last message (or death rede to the dramatic among us) is consciously sent as he is absorbed in Lucifer. Rei, John, Asuka, and Shinji all feel it. And if DJ wasn't dead, don't you think that Rei would tell Asuka?

(of course, there could be a missing scene. Only our esteemed editor would know for sure. But given the shamrock house interlude, and that DJ's come back from the 'dead' before...)

The differences, however, outweight the similiarites.

In the first situation, Lucifer and DJ unconsciously achive 1:1 synchonization. DJ forces Lucifer into it to save everyone. Lucifer pulls on all that is the eternal solider to do so...and in the process becomes fully conscious and almost fully in charge of his powers. DJ, on the other hand, loses consciousness and "forgets" who and what he was.

In the second situation, it's a conscious decision, with DJ understanding who and what Lucifer is... and what he (DJ) may be. Lucifer begins to share some truths with DJ, that lead them both to agree to 1:1 synchronization as DJ consciously lends his talent to fight, while Lucifer provides the power (AT field) and strength. At the end they both see the necessity of DJ being absorbed, rather than captured. To play dumb, and pretend that Lucifer is not awake.

Notice that DJ doesn't lose consciousness in the second situation. He embraces it as necessary. And he accepts that he's Longinus...with all that his destiny entails. That, I think, makes this so much more than the first experience. He and Lucifer are planning something, something that made Lucifer absorb all of DJ - clothes and body. DJ's corporal form is likely to be "hidden" some where in Lucifer, while his soul communes with the not-so-fallen angel.

After all, Lucifer's time of testing isn't over yet, is it? Maybe he needs all the help he can get. Perhaps only a fully awake eternal solider can provide that.

Totally rampant speculation: DJ, when he returns, will not be the same person. Like Rei and John, he will be transformed. I think the hesitant, hopeful DJ of Shamrock house demonstrates this.

thoughts?

t.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

>We don't know if this happened in the case of the Rei prototype --
>which did have the touch of the celestial, and still was absorbed.

I was referring to Moloch's Last Stand against EVA-06, when most of Moloch's power was coming from Reilael. Rei-P/T was a special case, probably not aware of her celestial heritage.

>Really?. I didn't see a stern Lucifer in that one. A curious Lucifer
>to be sure, but not an unhappy one.

No, but his words imply that had DJ "failed" the test, then he may well not have given DJ back to the group. So his original intent was not specifically to give DJ back, but to test the person who was piloting him. (As a side note, I can hardly blame him - if someone was screwing themselves into my back and piloting me into battle, I'd be more than a little concerned about their moral fiber myself!)

>I think that the two experiences were somewhat different.

>And if DJ wasn't dead, don't you think that Rei would tell Asuka?

Assuming she knew? Yes. But I don't see any real evidence that she would know, although I'm certain she suspects it. The only character who seems certain that he's not dead is Durandal (with one of my favorite lines from the series).

>(of course, there could be a missing scene. Only our esteemed editor
>would know for sure. But given the shamrock house interlude, and that
>DJ's come back from the 'dead' before...)

Well, come on. Who really believed that he was dead without reading the Shamrock House interlude? Gryphon put it rather succinctly, but it was pretty clear that "Lucifer's Last Stand" was anything but.

>The differences, however, outweight the similiarites.
>
>In the first situation, Lucifer and DJ unconsciously achive 1:1
>synchonization. DJ forces Lucifer into it to save everyone. Lucifer
>pulls on all that is the eternal solider to do so...and in the process
>becomes fully conscious and almost fully in charge of his powers. DJ,
>on the other hand, loses consciousness and "forgets" who and what he
>was.
>
>In the second situation, it's a conscious decision, with DJ
>understanding who and what Lucifer is... and what he (DJ) may be.
>Lucifer begins to share some truths with DJ, that lead them both to
>agree to 1:1 synchronization as DJ consciously lends his talent to
>fight, while Lucifer provides the power (AT field) and strength. At
>the end they both see the necessity of DJ being absorbed, rather than
>captured. To play dumb, and pretend that Lucifer is not awake.

Slight disagreement here. Both times are fully concious choices by DJ - the difference is awareness of what it entails. The first time, he says in no uncertain terms to Lucifer, "I don't care what you have to do in order to win this fight, I just want you to do it." Lucifer has still not recovered a whole lot of himself, and clumsily does just that - absorbs DJ, gets a kick in the pants from absorbing the Eternal Soldier, generates colliders, and goes on to kick the Angel's tail. The second time, he knows what the process entails, and Lucifer is aware enough (probably due in part to absorbing DJ the first time) to execute the plan more gracefully. Both situations are by and large the same, with the primary difference being that in the second situations, Lucifer is more aware and DJ is more concious of his decision. Note that in both cases, Lucifer fights in much the same fashion, with a level of skill that neither DJ nor Lucifer alone can reach - it's simply that the process isn't new and forced the second time around.

>Notice that DJ doesn't lose consciousness in the second situation. He
>embraces it as necessary. And he accepts that he's Longinus...with all
>that his destiny entails. That, I think, makes this so much more than
>the first experience. He and Lucifer are planning something,
>something that made Lucifer absorb all of DJ - clothes and body. DJ's
>corporal form is likely to be "hidden" some where in Lucifer, while
>his soul communes with the not-so-fallen angel.

Except that's what happened the first time, only much less gracefully. Lucifer absorbed most of DJ in the first instance, "held on" to his corporal form (although the actual form was dissolved, he was able to recreate it), and communed with DJ through the form of an elaborate test. They sort of jumped into it without knowing everything that it entailed. DJ "embraced" everything the first time around, he just didn't know what it was he was embracing.

I'll probably catch flame for this, but it's rather like having sex. The first time, you go through with it, but you're certainly not very graceful about it, and there's a bit of undesired pain and adjusting. But each time subsequently, you've got a better knowledge of what's going on, and both parties involved have an easier time going through with it. (I realize I'm being vague here, but the alternative is a bit worse.)

>Totally rampant speculation: DJ, when he returns, will not be the same
>person. Like Rei and John, he will be transformed. I think the
>hesitant, hopeful DJ of Shamrock house demonstrates this.

Not "transformed", more "reawakened". The same sort of transformation that happens when you find true love, when you discover the truth about your family - not a change per se, more an acceptance and a serenity that comes with security about yourself.
-Eliot "Speaking from experience in the last paragraph" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>No, but his words imply that had DJ "failed" the test, then he may
>well not have given DJ back to the group. So his original intent was
>not specifically to give DJ back, but to test the person who was
>piloting him. (As a side note, I can hardly blame him - if someone
>was screwing themselves into my back and piloting me into battle, I'd
>be more than a little concerned about their moral fiber myself!)

No diasgreement there...I think I forgot Lucifer's past.

>Assuming she knew? Yes. But I don't see any real evidence that she
>would know, although I'm certain she suspects it.

Granted...but I still think that she knows something drastic happened...enough so that DJ is part of Lucifer's celestial song.

>Well, come on. Who really believed that he was dead without
>reading the Shamrock House interlude? Gryphon put it rather
>succinctly, but it was pretty clear that "Lucifer's Last Stand" was
>anything but.

I did. But I think the rules on death are a little different for NXE and took that into account. I almost cried, but that was because the writing for DJ and Asuka hit me in the right spots.

>Slight disagreement here. Both times are fully concious choices by DJ
>- the difference is awareness of what it entails. The first time, he
>says in no uncertain terms to Lucifer, "I don't care what you have to
>do in order to win this fight, I just want you to do it." Lucifer has
>still not recovered a whole lot of himself, and clumsily does just
>that - absorbs DJ, gets a kick in the pants from absorbing the Eternal
>Soldier, generates colliders, and goes on to kick the Angel's tail.

Hmm, that's kinda like saying "Save me!" and being baptised, rather than pulled from the burning stake. His expectation was off. Not so the second time.

I think DJ was willing to accept his death to save his friends and avenge Asuka. I don't he understood or had any inkling of what Lucifer would do to achive that. Thus, not a totally conscious decision. He had no idea what the consequences would be...but I rather think he expected to die.

>The second time, he knows what the process entails, and Lucifer is
>aware enough (probably due in part to absorbing DJ the first time) to
>execute the plan more gracefully. Both situations are by and large
>the same, with the primary difference being that in the second
>situations, Lucifer is more aware and DJ is more concious of his
>decision. Note that in both cases, Lucifer fights in much the same
>fashion, with a level of skill that neither DJ nor Lucifer alone can
>reach - it's simply that the process isn't new and forced the second
>time around.

Um disagreement on two points. I don't think the first time is a plan, more like a desparate scramble to solve the crisis. Second, I thought the fighting styles were different. Afterall, no one had their core ripped out, and Lucifer didn't break his armor. DJ stays conscious the _entire_ time instead of having one last message before Lucifer goes beserk. When Lucifer howls, he and DJ both howl--a particular message that all the Children can hear. Not just a howl filled with blood-lust.

>Except that's what happened the first time, only much less gracefully.
> Lucifer absorbed most of DJ in the first instance, "held on"
>to his corporal form (although the actual form was dissolved, he was
>able to recreate it), and communed with DJ through the form of an
>elaborate test.

I think he absorbed DJ's soul and rejected the body. He then tested the soul. I think he could have communed with DJ anyway he liked.

>They sort of jumped into it without knowing
>everything that it entailed. DJ "embraced" everything the first time
>around, he just didn't know what it was he was embracing.

No disagreement.

>I'll probably catch flame for this, but it's rather like having sex.

I love the description <grin>. Mad fumble in the back of the car without a roadmap vs. a lovely meal.

>Not "transformed", more "reawakened". The same sort of transformation
>that happens when you find true love, when you discover the truth
>about your family - not a change per se, more an acceptance and a
>serenity that comes with security about yourself.

I love this one too. And I think you're right.

it's been fun,
t.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

>>I'll probably catch flame for this, but it's rather like having sex.
>
>I love the description <grin>. Mad fumble in the back of the car
>without a roadmap vs. a lovely meal.

"I thought he meant... you know... coffee."

--truss,
Don't mind me, I'm just breaking a couple of my fellow authors...

Dear Truss:

You Bastard.

<SHATTER>

(I don't even get the JOKE, but it's still so non-sequitur it's making me almost completely lose it here at work.)

--
Geoff Depew - Mephron
"Big O! Showtime!"

Damn you!

Not only do I not get the joke, but it didn't even hit me until after about 30 seconds. Truss, you owe me $1.98(1) (you broke it, you bought it :)

Offsides
(1) I can't remember the name of the story, but it involves a small genie granting a wish of < $2.00...

#include <shatter.h>

>"I thought he meant... you know... coffee."
>
>--truss,
>Don't mind me, I'm just breaking a couple of my fellow
>authors...

For those of you who don't get the reference but are interested in getting it in the future, check out http://www.otmfan.com/ssclub/html/sslyrics.htm, specifically the lyrics for "Rishartha, or Prime Directive Shmime Directive." And if you like the lyrics, buy the CD. :) Support the independant artist...

-- Juniper
----------------------------------------
"Fac me cocleario vomere!"
-- Onatah, on NE:CiF MUSH

>For those of you who don't get the reference but are interested in
>getting it in the future, check out
>http://www.otmfan.com/ssclub/html/sslyrics.htm

Don't put commas after URLs, or DCF will interpret them as part of it. :P

>specifically the
>lyrics for "Rishartha, or Prime Directive Shmime Directive."

...which are, sadly, wrong. The bit I quoted was from the third "chorus" -- but the lyrics on that page don't match what they actually sing (and, frankly, are notably lamer than what they actually sing).

--truss.

>Don't put commas after URLs, or DCF will interpret them as part of it.
>:P

Which is a fix I did that made it into the official build. There are too many URLs with commas in them (lots of magazines do that, etc) so it was considered a bug that DCF didn't handle them. The URL linking code in DCF today is mostly my doing.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
See what I'm selling on eBay

>And if
>you like the lyrics, buy the CD. :) Support the independant artist...

... get "Theme from 'Super Skrull'" stuck in your head...

--G.
who can turn one leg invisible, but that's really not all that practical
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>
>--G.
>who can turn one leg invisible, but that's really not all that
>practical
>-><-
>Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
>Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

"Jack the Tripper, who can turn one leg invisible, and uses this ability to cause fleeing criminals to stumble and fall..."

Peter Eng

>Granted...but I still think that she knows something drastic
>happened...enough so that DJ is part of Lucifer's celestial song.

Still, "drastic" could mean a lot of different things - it could mean that he was dead, it could mean that he had been absorbed, it could mean that Lucifer had gone insane. ;>

>I think DJ was willing to accept his death to save his friends and
>avenge Asuka. I don't he understood or had any inkling of what Lucifer
>would do to achive that. Thus, not a totally conscious decision. He
>had no idea what the consequences would be...but I rather think he
>expected to die.

But he conciously accepted those consequences. He was willing to do whatever in order to win, and he said that to Lucifer... so Lucifer called him on it. Even if you don't know exactly what the consequence will be, you make a choice to accept them or not. The problem is that it's a lot more daunting when you don't know exactly what's coming around the bend.

>Um disagreement on two points. I don't think the first time is a
>plan, more like a desparate scramble to solve the crisis.

That is a plan, just not a very complicated one. "Solve the crisis" is as much a plan as "Double back to the weapons store and use handcannons", it just leaves more options.

>Second, I thought the fighting styles were different. Afterall, no one had
>their core ripped out, and Lucifer didn't break his armor. DJ stays
>conscious the _entire_ time instead of having one last message before
>Lucifer goes beserk. When Lucifer howls, he and DJ both howl--a
>particular message that all the Children can hear. Not just a howl
>filled with blood-lust.

Like I said - it was a work in process. Lucifer still fought with vicious assurance. But there was less sanity and control in him, less awareness of himself, and the fact that he was not at all clear on the power of the Eternal Soldier. He got a hard kick in the seat of his pants and lurched forward, in the process going a little nuts because he wasn't ready for it. But the second time, he was ready to go.

>I love the description <grin>. Mad fumble in the back of the car
>without a roadmap vs. a lovely meal.

. . .

I'm not even going to say what the ending part makes me think of, because I'm certain that I'd catch flame for it, and frankly I'd deserve it. ;>
-Eliot "Rushing to get done with work in time" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>>Um disagreement on two points. I don't think the first time is a
>>plan, more like a desparate scramble to solve the crisis.
>
>That is a plan, just not a very complicated one. "Solve the
>crisis" is as much a plan as "Double back to the weapons store and use
>handcannons", it just leaves more options.

Oh, it was a plan, all right. DJ was planning to die.

I am reminded of a quote from Babylon 5, Season 1...

"I know a lot of guys who came out of the war changed. Some came out better, some came out worse. A lot of them have this problem: the war gave them definition, direction, purpose. Without it they don't know how to fit in anymore, so they keep looking for ways to go out in a blaze of glory. Some people call it being a hero, maybe so. I don't know. I've never been one. Me, I think they're looking for something worth dying for because it's easier than finding something worth living for." -- Garibaldi to Sinclair, "Infection"

...that just about sums up DJ's attitude at the end of Season Two.

--truss.

>

>"I know a lot of guys who came out of the war changed. Some came out
>better, some came out worse. A lot of them have this problem: the
>war gave them definition, direction, purpose. Without it they don't
>know how to fit in anymore, so they keep looking for ways to go out in
>a blaze of glory. Some people call it being a hero, maybe so. I don't
>know. I've never been one. Me, I think they're looking for something
>worth dying for because it's easier than finding something worth
>living for." -- Garibaldi to Sinclair, "Infection"
>

Fabulous quote. Now I need to see every episode again...

Second, I forgot how bad things were at that point. From DJ's perspective it's as bad as it gets.

t.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

>Fabulous quote. Now I need to see every episode again...

You could probably skip TKO... and all of season 5

--------------------------------------
Whoa! What IS it?!

>>Fabulous quote. Now I need to see every episode again...
>
>You could probably skip TKO... and all of season 5

I *like* a lot of Season 5.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
See what I'm selling on eBay

>>>Fabulous quote. Now I need to see every episode again...
>>
>>You could probably skip TKO... and all of season 5
>
>I *like* a lot of Season 5.

For me, season 5 lacked alot of the flair the rest of the series had. I think too much of what was supposed to be season 5 content was pushed into season 4 as they didn't know if there would be a season 5. Curse broadcast television.

--------------------------------------
Whoa! What IS it?!

>>>>Fabulous quote. Now I need to see every episode again...
>>>
>>>You could probably skip TKO... and all of season 5
>>
>>I *like* a lot of Season 5.
>
>For me, season 5 lacked alot of the flair the rest of the series had.
>I think too much of what was supposed to be season 5 content was
>pushed into season 4 as they didn't know if there would be a season 5.
> Curse broadcast television.

Topic police. Take it to e-p.com/General. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>>>Fabulous quote. Now I need to see every episode again...
>>
>>You could probably skip TKO... and all of season 5
>
>I *like* a lot of Season 5.

As do I. And I like TKO (though mostly for the B plot).

--truss.
"I, I, I... don't wanna write the B PLOT!"

>Oh, it was a plan, all right. DJ was planning to die.

That was never the feeling that I took away from DJ at that point, but looking back in retrospect, I can definitely see it - the desparation at what seems to be the end of your world, the sensation that dying certainly wouldn't make you miss anything, the willingness to bring yourself into a deadly situation without intention of emerging. I'd hardly call DJ suicidal, but having been at a point like that in my own life before, I can identify.
-Eliot "Now I almost feel bad about not liking Babylon 5" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>"Now I almost feel bad about not liking Babylon 5"

Everything I've heard about Babylon 5 had made me think that I'd really, really like it, especially given how complex it gets in later seasons. But I didn't watch it when it first came out because the commercials and whatnot gave me the impression of a poor man's DS9 (which, at the time, I didn't like... I didn't get into DS9 until much, much later, during the last two-three seasons of its run). Since then, I've tried to get into B5, but every time I sit down to watcha first-season episode, I suddenly find myself bored beyond belief by the sheer lack of energy from whatsisname that played the captain of the station in the first season. I swear, every time he comes on screen, he's like a black hole of emotional charge; all energy just drains out of the scene, making it harder and harder for me to keep focused on it, no matter how interesting the rest of the episode is. And I know that I need to watch the show pretty much in order, so I'm stuck waiting until such time as the show starts coming out on DVD.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>Everything I've heard about Babylon 5 had made me think that I'd
>really, really like it, especially given how complex it gets in later
>seasons. But I didn't watch it when it first came out because the
>commercials and whatnot gave me the impression of a poor man's DS9
>(which, at the time, I didn't like... I didn't get into DS9 until
>much, much later, during the last two-three seasons of its run).
>Since then, I've tried to get into B5, but every time I sit down to
>watcha first-season episode, I suddenly find myself bored beyond
>belief by the sheer lack of energy from whatsisname that played the
>captain of the station in the first season. I swear, every time he
>comes on screen, he's like a black hole of emotional charge; all
>energy just drains out of the scene, making it harder and harder for
>me to keep focused on it, no matter how interesting the rest of the
>episode is. And I know that I need to watch the show pretty much in
>order, so I'm stuck waiting until such time as the show starts coming
>out on DVD.

My story is slightly different: I liked DS9 from the get-go, and while I got much the same impression of B5 from initial exposure ("It's like Deep Space Nine without Starfleet and Klingons"), I was willing to give it a shot. However, something about the first few episodes just utterly failed to capture my attention, and I wrote it off as being a vaguely interesting idea that would soon join the ranks of promising series that died (you know, like Sliders). So I turned a blind eye to it for several years, and it was only about a year ago that I really started noticing that it had some real fan following. By that point, though, I'd missed most of the beginning and couldn't get in in the middle, so I'm stuck. The few times I've watched it subsequently, though, I've been so lost that I can't possibly think of good things about it.
-Eliot "Time to play 'Rush Madly For The Bus'!" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>being a vaguely interesting idea that would soon join the ranks of
>promising series that died (you know, like Sliders). So I

Sliders. Wow. What a show that could have been. John Rhys-Davies kept it watchable for the entire time he was on it, and occasionally actively interesting (frequently enough that I watched the show on a semi-regular basis). Then he left, and the writers started smoking stuff even more toxic than what they'd been smoking before, and then it moved to the SFC, and became even more of a Jerry O'Connell wankfest...

Ugh.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>>>Um disagreement on two points. I don't think the first time is a
>>>plan, more like a desparate scramble to solve the crisis.
>>
>>That is a plan, just not a very complicated one. "Solve the
>>crisis" is as much a plan as "Double back to the weapons store and use
>>handcannons", it just leaves more options.
>
>Oh, it was a plan, all right. DJ was planning to die.
>
>I am reminded of a quote from Babylon 5, Season 1...
>

Better that than the Walter Slovotsky (mis)quote:

"In case everything goes completely wrong, I have a backup plan: I will die slowly, at great length, and in great pain. Admitted, it's not a good backup plan..."

That isn't exactly it, but the flavor is there.

Peter Eng

>Better that than the Walter Slovotsky (mis)quote:
>
>"In case everything goes completely wrong, I have a backup plan: I
>will die slowly, at great length, and in great pain. Admitted, it's
>not a good backup plan..."
>

Oh MAN! Now I'm gonna haveta drag out those books and read all five again. Walter 'I'm just a slave to my hormones' Slovotsky is just cool. Who else could make three months of solid boozing into something heroic?

drakensisthered

So I simply said one of the great trite truths: "There is generally more than one side to a story." - Corwin, Roger Zelazny's 'Courts of Chaos'

There's more than 5. Lessee:

Sleeping Dragon
Sword and the Chain
Silver Crown
Heir Apparent
Warrior Lives
The Road Home
The Road to Ehvenor

Then
Not Quite the Three Musketeers
Not Quite Scaramouche

Geoff Depew - Mephron
"That's right. Derek had Literacy."

>"That's right. Derek had Literacy."

Well, no, Andrew had Literacy. Derek just broke because of it.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>I was referring to Moloch's Last Stand against EVA-06, when most of
>Moloch's power was coming from Reilael. Rei-P/T was a special case,
>probably not aware of her celestial heritage.

Likely not - after all, there's a mention of both Lucifer and Rei-P/T being confused when the truth of that one comes to light in the very last episode.

>No, but his words imply that had DJ "failed" the test, then he may
>well not have given DJ back to the group. So his original intent was
>not specifically to give DJ back, but to test the person who was
>piloting him. (As a side note, I can hardly blame him - if someone
>was screwing themselves into my back and piloting me into battle, I'd
>be more than a little concerned about their moral fiber myself!)

Really? I got the impression that Lucifer was satisfied with the result of the vision quest of DJ's - and that yes, it was a test of DJ's courage and inner strength. How would he react, knowing he was doomed?

>>And if DJ wasn't dead, don't you think that Rei would tell Asuka?
>
>Assuming she knew? Yes. But I don't see any real evidence that she
>would know, although I'm certain she suspects it. The only character
>who seems certain that he's not dead is Durandal (with one of my
>favorite lines from the series).

She's a Cherub - and if she's attuned herself to DJ (which is more than 99% likely to be the case with her and /all/ the Children), she will know if he's dead, because her attunement would be broken.

>Well, come on. Who really believed that he was dead without
>reading the Shamrock House interlude? Gryphon put it rather
>succinctly, but it was pretty clear that "Lucifer's Last Stand" was
>anything but.

Indeed. DJ is the Main Hero. Without him, there wouldn't really be a 'wrap-it-all-up' movie, because without him, NERV loses the mightiest power it can hope to use, and they're already fighting at a handicap.

>Slight disagreement here. Both times are fully concious choices by DJ
>- the difference is awareness of what it entails. The first time, he
>says in no uncertain terms to Lucifer, "I don't care what you have to
>do in order to win this fight, I just want you to do it." Lucifer has
>still not recovered a whole lot of himself, and clumsily does just
>that - absorbs DJ, gets a kick in the pants from absorbing the Eternal
>Soldier, generates colliders, and goes on to kick the Angel's tail.
>The second time, he knows what the process entails, and Lucifer is
>aware enough (probably due in part to absorbing DJ the first time) to
>execute the plan more gracefully. Both situations are by and large
>the same, with the primary difference being that in the second
>situations, Lucifer is more aware and DJ is more concious of his
>decision. Note that in both cases, Lucifer fights in much the same
>fashion, with a level of skill that neither DJ nor Lucifer alone can
>reach - it's simply that the process isn't new and forced the second
>time around.

Actually, one can disagree here - IMO, what I think the effect on the fight is that DJ accepted the simple truth that he is the Eternal Soldier, and that released the unconscious blocks that seperated DJ Croft from the Eternal Soldier - and the chosen weapon of the Soldier is the spear. It even shows earlier - he has a natural aptitude with the spear. Spears aren't exactly easy weapons to use, after all.

I will agree that the situations are somewhat similar, though.

>Except that's what happened the first time, only much less gracefully.
> Lucifer absorbed most of DJ in the first instance, "held on"
>to his corporal form (although the actual form was dissolved, he was
>able to recreate it), and communed with DJ through the form of an
>elaborate test. They sort of jumped into it without knowing
>everything that it entailed. DJ "embraced" everything the first time
>around, he just didn't know what it was he was embracing.

Rather startled him when it happened, though. "My God! It's full of stars!" Rather like he was expecting something, no idea what, and what it turned out to be startled him witless in the last instant.

>>Totally rampant speculation: DJ, when he returns, will not be the same
>>person. Like Rei and John, he will be transformed. I think the
>>hesitant, hopeful DJ of Shamrock house demonstrates this.

The DJ of the Encounter was hesitant and hopeful because he was pondering the eventual future, and the end of the known timeline. Given the note that the last episode ended on, wouldn't you act rather similar, in his place? I know I would...

>Not "transformed", more "reawakened". The same sort of transformation
>that happens when you find true love, when you discover the truth
>about your family - not a change per se, more an acceptance and a
>serenity that comes with security about yourself.

That, I can totally agree with. He'll likely have accepted the simple truth that he's the Eternal Soldier, and with that sort of knowledge would come a rather solid self-confidence, I'd think.

>-Eliot "Speaking from experience in the last paragraph" Lefebvre
>-=()=-
>We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most
>of it.
>Electronic Transcendance Productions
>Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

-Khirsah the Deranged
Resident Editor-in-Chaos, DracoDen Productions, UnLtd.
This post was created using Opera 5.0
And
Corwin the Dyslexic Computer

>She's a Cherub - and if she's attuned herself to DJ (which is more
>than 99% likely to be the case with her and /all/ the Children), she
>will know if he's dead, because her attunement would be broken.

But she's also gone through some seriously mind-bending crap since then, and it may well be that she didn't even conciously know she was attuned to DJ when she first staked a claim. It's entirely possible that she'd feel something but not know exactly what. Remember, she's still a very broken angel - she's recovered a lot of herself, but not nearly all.

>Indeed. DJ is the Main Hero. Without him, there wouldn't really
>be a 'wrap-it-all-up' movie, because without him, NERV loses
>the mightiest power it can hope to use, and they're already fighting
>at a handicap.

Well, that and it would so totally blow any hopes of NXE being the antithesis to the original out of the water by killing the hero totally arbitrarily. Don't get me wrong - in one of my own fictional universes, I've planned a totally senseless death towards the end - but that's also a universe that's SUPPOSED to have senseless deaths.

>Actually, one can disagree here - IMO, what I think the effect on the
>fight is that DJ accepted the simple truth that he is the Eternal
>Soldier, and that released the unconscious blocks that seperated DJ
>Croft from the Eternal Soldier - and the chosen weapon of the Soldier
>is the spear. It even shows earlier - he has a natural aptitude with
>the spear. Spears aren't exactly easy weapons to use, after all.

No? "It's a pointed stick, dammit! POKE the beastie!"

Sorry. Offhanded reference. Spears are difficult to use in a truly effective sense, and DJ pops into total overdrive with his spear at the end. It's certainly a nice change from the "well, he's got to use a sword, he's the hero" syndrome of nearly every series involving close-combat weapons.

(As an interesting side note - does anyone else find it odd that, throughout Vagrant Story, Ashley is constantly swinging spears at the enemy but never actually thrusting the damn things? Small wonder the Rapier is so useless, since it's meant to be thrusted and not swung...)

>Rather startled him when it happened, though. "My God! It's full of
>stars!" Rather like he was expecting something, no idea what, and
>what it turned out to be startled him witless in the last instant.

I imagine that if I were absorbed by an unspeakably and unfathomably powerful celestial, I would be pretty damned startled as well. ;>
-Eliot "Actually have a really scary idea about what Lucifer-DJ might do at some point" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>But she's also gone through some seriously mind-bending crap since
>then, and it may well be that she didn't even conciously know she
>was attuned to DJ when she first staked a claim. It's entirely
>possible that she'd feel something but not know exactly what.
>Remember, she's still a very broken angel - she's recovered a lot of
>herself, but not nearly all.

True, true. She'd know something was missing, but maybe not what. Or it might be that she has a base-instinct effect with it - like knowing what trouble he was in, and where to find him, after the Dirac's Ocean incident...

>Well, that and it would so totally blow any hopes of NXE being
>the antithesis to the original out of the water by killing the hero
>totally arbitrarily. Don't get me wrong - in one of my own fictional
>universes, I've planned a totally senseless death towards the end -
>but that's also a universe that's SUPPOSED to have senseless deaths.

Exactly. NXE is the Heroic Story kind of tale - senseless deaths don't make much sense in that kind of storyline. Then there're others where they make plenty of sense. Each has its place, but it's just freaky to cross them. Not to mention just plain wrong. Which, of course, is why I'm glad people like Gryph (an, I would hope, you and I) exist, to use them they way they should be...

>No? "It's a pointed stick, dammit! POKE the beastie!"

*thud* Ow. I fell off my chair there - wasn't expecting that...

>Sorry. Offhanded reference. Spears are difficult to use in a truly
>effective sense, and DJ pops into total overdrive with his spear at
>the end. It's certainly a nice change from the "well, he's got to use
>a sword, he's the hero" syndrome of nearly every series involving
>close-combat weapons.

Yep. He does well with it at first, better than anyone using one for the first time has a right to, even with the Prince of Darkness lending a celestial hand; and when he goes after them defending the train, well... Yeah. Nice touch, that battle...

>(As an interesting side note - does anyone else find it odd that,
>throughout Vagrant Story, Ashley is constantly swinging
>spears at the enemy but never actually thrusting the damn things?
>Small wonder the Rapier is so useless, since it's meant to be thrusted
>and not swung...)

Never seen it, unfortunately. I'm still working on stealing my friend's copy of NGE on VCD so I can sit down and watch the entire bloody thing. That, and torture another friend to hurry up and get me the set of BGC 2032 that he promised to get me...

>I imagine that if I were absorbed by an unspeakably and unfathomably
>powerful celestial, I would be pretty damned startled as well. ;>

Gee, y'think? >;)
OTOH, I know a few people who'd probably take it as Just Another Fweird Day. Were one to build them in GURPS, they'd have the Unfazeable advantage, something like a dozen times. It's just fweird to watch them.

>-Eliot "Actually have a really scary idea about what Lucifer-DJ might
>do at some point" Lefebvre

Why am I get that 'By the pricking of my thumbs' feeling?

>-=()=-
>We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most
>of it.
>Electronic Transcendance Productions
>Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

-Khirsah the Deranged
"Run. Don't ask why, just run. Now."

>True, true. She'd know something was missing, but maybe not
>what. Or it might be that she has a base-instinct effect with it -
>like knowing what trouble he was in, and where to find him, after the
>Dirac's Ocean incident...

I imagine it's something along the lines of Jon's line about being able to understand the music but not sing it just yet - she's slowly recovering an awareness of who she is and what her true capabilities are. It's also possible that, after everything she's been through, she's pretty much reached the maximum level of her abilities again - she's too broke to be entirely fixed, in a sense.

>Exactly. NXE is the Heroic Story kind of tale - senseless
>deaths don't make much sense in that kind of storyline. Then there're
>others where they make plenty of sense. Each has its place, but it's
>just freaky to cross them. Not to mention just plain wrong. Which, of
>course, is why I'm glad people like Gryph (and, I would hope, you and
>I) exist, to use them they way they should be...

I would hope so. I've not gotten to senseless deaths in Genesis yet, but I've allowed guns to have a very high lethality rate - they're easily the superior of the ki blasts that most of the main characters throw around. (Heck, Stryker got himself nearly killed in the most recent chapter.) Battle Helix opens with a senseless death, and it's currently at the most light-hearted end of the series. It all depends on the mood that's being set.

>*thud* Ow. I fell off my chair there - wasn't expecting that...

It's a long story to explain. Suffice to say that it's a quote that might find more screen time, and is filed under my "use the obvious tool for the obvious job" quotes...

>Never seen it, unfortunately. I'm still working on stealing my
>friend's copy of NGE on VCD so I can sit down and watch the entire
>bloody thing. That, and torture another friend to hurry up and get me
>the set of BGC 2032 that he promised to get me...

Don't wait for it to come out on DVD, it's a Playstation game. I was just noting how the spear animation always depicts swinging, as if he were wielding something with an edge, although all spears are Piercing weapons.

>Gee, y'think? >;)
>OTOH, I know a few people who'd probably take it as Just Another
>Fweird Day. Were one to build them in GURPS, they'd have the
>Unfazeable advantage, something like a dozen times. It's just fweird
>to watch them.

There comes a point, at least for me, where things have gotten so far out of the range of normal that anything further abnormal, no matter how bizarre, cannot even stagger me. Even if what's been abnormal is what's been happening with my classes, and I step outside to see a Gundam waiting for me. By that point I've just sort of resolved that the universe is not working right for the day, and leave it at that.

>Why am I get that 'By the pricking of my thumbs' feeling?

Here's some idea of what I had in mind... part of this comes from the part about "Lucifer <can take apart a body> by blinking funny"...

EVA-01 staggered from the blow, then found itself on the receving end of another blast from the white SEELE EVA without a moment's pause. Asuka gritted her teeth and pushed her machine closer to her teammate, but found her path cut off by two more of the machines. She swung an angry prog knife at one, but found herself driven back regardless, unable to close the distance.

"Asuka!" came Misato's voice over the comm. "We've lost visual feed; what's going on out there?"

"This verdammt machine isn't -doing- anything!" replied Asuka in frustration, rage, and fear, driving a knife into the shoulder of one of the enemy EVAs and trying to step around its counterpart. The maneuver was met with a solid blow that sent her reeling; turning, she found another SEELE machine closing in. "Misato, I need -backup-!"

DJ's comm wasn't functional, but he could see what was happening and knew what Asuka had to be experiencing as he swung his spear around, using it to trip one of the opposing units. His pulse quickened as he saw her machine stagger from another blow, then winced as Lucifer was driven into by another EVA. There were simply too many EVAs for the two of them to handle.

Then something snapped.

"The -hell- with this," came a voice that sounded like a blend of DJ's and Lucifer's, startling Asuka out of her frustrated maneuvering. The spear was hurled and burst through one of the EVA's chest armor, leaving it to fall forward without a pilot. Lucifer seemed in no hurry to pick up the spear, but his eyes glowed with a fierce green light. Asuka watched as Lucifer smashed a fist into a nearby EVA as he fixed another with his gaze, then gasped as the unit in front of her began to burn away into ash and smoke. It was a moment before she realized that Lucifer was coming towards her, burning away the EVAs in between...
-Eliot "Scary" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>I imagine it's something along the lines of Jon's line about being
>able to understand the music but not sing it just yet - she's slowly
>recovering an awareness of who she is and what her true capabilities
>are. It's also possible that, after everything she's been through,
>she's pretty much reached the maximum level of her abilities again -
>she's too broke to be entirely fixed, in a sense.

Mmm. Possible - although Archangel-class beings could probably mend her well enough with a little effort. They seem reasonably omnipotent when it comes to lesser angels...

>I would hope so. I've not gotten to senseless deaths in
>Genesis yet, but I've allowed guns to have a very high
>lethality rate - they're easily the superior of the ki blasts that
>most of the main characters throw around. (Heck, Stryker got himself
>nearly killed in the most recent chapter.) Battle Helix
>opens with a senseless death, and it's currently at the most
>light-hearted end of the series. It all depends on the mood that's
>being set.

No arguments there.

>It's a long story to explain. Suffice to say that it's a quote that
>might find more screen time, and is filed under my "use the obvious
>tool for the obvious job" quotes...

Mmmm. Blunt humor. I like it.

>Don't wait for it to come out on DVD, it's a Playstation game. I was
>just noting how the spear animation always depicts swinging, as if he
>were wielding something with an edge, although all spears are Piercing
>weapons.

I knew it sounded familiar. I may be able to visit the Blockbuster near my friend's place next time I go into Vegas, then, and pick it to peer at it.

>There comes a point, at least for me, where things have gotten so far
>out of the range of normal that anything further abnormal, no matter
>how bizarre, cannot even stagger me. Even if what's been abnormal is
>what's been happening with my classes, and I step outside to see a
>Gundam waiting for me. By that point I've just sort of resolved that
>the universe is not working right for the day, and leave it at that.

That I understand - the point when the universe is radiating the feeling that it has been calmly pushed about 42 degrees off the usual course, and about 23 degrees tilted from the level, so that anything more is just overkill and doesn't matter.

>Here's some idea of what I had in mind... part of this comes from the
>part about "Lucifer <can take apart a body> by blinking funny"...
>
>EVA-01 staggered from the blow, then found itself on the receving
>end of another blast from the white SEELE EVA without a moment's
>pause. Asuka gritted her teeth and pushed her machine closer to her
>teammate, but found her path cut off by two more of the machines. She
>swung an angry prog knife at one, but found herself driven back
>regardless, unable to close the distance.
>
>"Asuka!" came Misato's voice over the comm. "We've lost visual feed;
>what's going on out there?"
>
>"This verdammt machine isn't -doing- anything!" replied Asuka in
>frustration, rage, and fear, driving a knife into the shoulder of one
>of the enemy EVAs and trying to step around its counterpart. The
>maneuver was met with a solid blow that sent her reeling; turning, she
>found another SEELE machine closing in. "Misato, I need -backup-!"
>
>DJ's comm wasn't functional, but he could see what was happening and
>knew what Asuka had to be experiencing as he swung his spear around,
>using it to trip one of the opposing units. His pulse quickened as he
>saw her machine stagger from another blow, then winced as Lucifer was
>driven into by another EVA. There were simply too many EVAs for the
>two of them to handle.
>
>Then something snapped.
>
>"The -hell- with this," came a voice that sounded like a blend of DJ's
>and Lucifer's, startling Asuka out of her frustrated maneuvering. The
>spear was hurled and burst through one of the EVA's chest armor,
>leaving it to fall forward without a pilot. Lucifer seemed in no
>hurry to pick up the spear, but his eyes glowed with a fierce green
>light. Asuka watched as Lucifer smashed a fist into a nearby EVA as
>he fixed another with his gaze, then gasped as the unit in front of
>her began to burn away into ash and smoke. It was a moment before she
>realized that Lucifer was coming towards her, burning away the EVAs in
>between...

Yow. Now that's a cool scene, to be sure.

>-Eliot "Scary" Lefebvre
>-=()=-
>We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most
>of it.
>Electronic Transcendance Productions
>Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>> It's also possible that, after everything she's been through,
>>she's pretty much reached the maximum level of her abilities again -
>>she's too broke to be entirely fixed, in a sense.
>Mmm. Possible - although Archangel-class beings could probably mend
>her well enough with a little effort. They seem reasonably omnipotent
>when it comes to lesser angels...

Well, there I can speak definitively. While working on an In Nomine project in 1999, I specifically asked the Line Editor about this very question. The official answer is that, yes, while a Superior can graft Forces back onto a Remnant to replace those that were lost, the result is almost never the same angel that originally existed. You'd get more of a Tabriel than a restored Rei in such a case.

However, remember that the In Nom Remnant rules have been rather explicitly revamped for the purposes of NXE, and this limitation may or may not apply, as determined by the authors and the needs of the story.

-- Bob
---------------
"Shinji. Same name as the master key -- well done, Ikari. Shinji can't be
copied. Splendid plan." -- Tabris, in Tenshi Muyo! Rei-o-ohki

>Well, there I can speak definitively. While working on an
>In Nomine project in 1999, I specifically asked the Line Editor
>about this very question. The official answer is that, yes, while a
>Superior can graft Forces back onto a Remnant to replace those that
>were lost, the result is almost never the same angel that originally
>existed. You'd get more of a Tabriel than a restored Rei in such a
>case.
>
>However, remember that the In Nom Remnant rules have
>been rather explicitly revamped for the purposes of NXE, and
>this limitation may or may not apply, as determined by the authors and
>the needs of the story.

The way I see it, yes, an Archangel could have "rebuilt" Rei. And yes, the end result would have been something vaguely like Tabriel... an angel with Rei's memories (whatever ones she had at the time), but certainly not the same angel that she once was.

But... and here's where NXE diverges from IN canon... Rei has instead managed to heal herself, which is different (and, even in the NXE version of INspace, remarkable). Why? Who knows? (Ok, maybe Gryph does. :) Perhaps even as a Remnant, her force of will is just that strong. Or maybe her recent actions resonate so strongly with her Cherub nature and her previous attunement to Lucifer and Moloch, that she's able to use that resonance to reconstruct her old self as she gains awareness of what she used to be.

In any case... since Rei is the one instigating her recovery, it gives her some level of control over "who she grows up to be", as it were. (Especially since it happens over such a long duration.) Is the recovered Rei "the same angel" that she was before? In an absolute sense, that's a question best left to the philosophers... but in every way that's important to Rei herself, the answer is yes.

--truss.

>Well, there I can speak definitively. While working on an
>In Nomine project in 1999, I specifically asked the Line Editor
>about this very question. The official answer is that, yes, while a
>Superior can graft Forces back onto a Remnant to replace those that
>were lost, the result is almost never the same angel that originally
>existed. You'd get more of a Tabriel than a restored Rei in such a
>case.

Mmm. Good point.

>However, remember that the In Nom Remnant rules have
>been rather explicitly revamped for the purposes of NXE, and
>this limitation may or may not apply, as determined by the authors and
>the needs of the story.

Which is, of course, the lovely effect of any good game system - it can be edited to work the way the people using it want it to, rather than being forced to use it *exactly* the way it was designed...

>-- Bob
>---------------
>"Shinji. Same name as the master key -- well done, Ikari. Shinji
>can't be
>copied. Splendid plan." -- Tabris, in Tenshi Muyo!
>Rei-o-ohki

-Khirsah the Deranged
"Never let four lunatics armed with caffeine go wandering at 12:15 in the morning."

>>Well, there I can speak definitively. While working on an
>>In Nomine project in 1999, I specifically asked the Line Editor
>>about this very question. The official answer is that, yes, while a
>>Superior can graft Forces back onto a Remnant to replace those that
>>were lost, the result is almost never the same angel that originally
>>existed. You'd get more of a Tabriel than a restored Rei in such a
>>case.
>
>Mmm. Good point.
>
>>However, remember that the In Nom Remnant rules have
>>been rather explicitly revamped for the purposes of NXE, and
>>this limitation may or may not apply, as determined by the authors and
>>the needs of the story.

*snaps fingers*

I think I found an explanation that both fits within IN canon -and- the requirements of the story.
Now, this is pure speculation, of course, but as far as I can tell, it's not just the number of Forces that determines who is an Archangel or Demon Prince. The designation of God or Lucifer is also required. If that's the case, what if it's more than a designation? What if naming a celestial a Superior also inherently grants them specific powers, one of which is the direct manipulation of Forces?
If this is the case, then perhaps this power is also inherited when the forces that make up an Superior are transferred in toto to another Celestial.
And if -that's- the case, then Reilael, after acquiring whatever Forces Moloch had remaining, may have been granted the ability to manipulate Forces directly enough to 'heal' herself without submerging her personality. Or, Moloch's condition may have made her personality 99.9999% dominant. Again, it's a totally unsure thing. But it might fit. Thoughts?

--"I invoke the rites of fiery Muspelheim, and give thy soul up to the inferno's embrace..."

>*snaps fingers*
>
> I think I found an explanation that both fits within IN canon
>-and- the requirements of the story.
> Now, this is pure speculation, of course, but as far as I can
>tell, it's not just the number of Forces that determines who is an
>Archangel or Demon Prince. The designation of God or Lucifer is also
>required. If that's the case, what if it's more than a designation?
>What if naming a celestial a Superior also inherently grants them
>specific powers, one of which is the direct manipulation of Forces?
> If this is the case, then perhaps this power is also inherited
>when the forces that make up an Superior are transferred in toto to
>another Celestial.
> And if -that's- the case, then Reilael, after acquiring whatever
>Forces Moloch had remaining, may have been granted the ability to
>manipulate Forces directly enough to 'heal' herself without submerging
>her personality. Or, Moloch's condition may have made her personality
>99.9999% dominant. Again, it's a totally unsure thing. But it might
>fit. Thoughts?

Oooh. I like this idea. Even if it isn't the case, I think I'll incorporate it into the In Nomine campaign I'm running...

>--"I invoke the rites of fiery Muspelheim, and give thy soul up to the
>inferno's embrace..."

>Here's some idea of what I had in mind... part of this comes from the
>part about "Lucifer <can take apart a body> by blinking funny"...

Wow. I wasn't expecting anything like this when I turned that particular phrase... Nice.

-- Bob
---------------
"Shinji. Same name as the master key -- well done, Ikari. Shinji can't be
copied. Splendid plan." -- Tabris, in Tenshi Muyo! Rei-o-ohki

>Wow. I wasn't expecting anything like this when I turned that
>particular phrase... Nice.

I'm not very pleased with how it came out, actually... but it was written quickly off the top of my head, and it hurts that there's not really any scenic context. Far from my best writing.
-Eliot "Yeah, writing well is at the forefront of my mind right now" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>Really?. I didn't see a stern Lucifer in that one. A curious Lucifer
>to be sure, but not an unhappy one. Afterall, DJ was tested but they
>both found out (or confirmed) what DJ's soul is like. I think Lucifer
>would have given DJ back if he had thought of it. I guess that time
>works differently for Lucifer than for the outside world. After all
>DJ's vision quest took 1 month in real time. It appeared to take only
>a few days in the vision.

For the record, no spoilers are involved here.

It might not even be a matter of time. With DJ absorbed, Lucifer had his pilot and the Eternal Warrior within easy reach. With that, he was combat-ready at any time. This was a much better situation than before, when someone could keep DJ away from him and thus keep him from his full effectiveness. It was more effective to have DJ with him at all times.

He may have been inert at all that time, but that may just have meant that he was beyond human concerns. After all, the rest of the team treated him as Unit 01, a great war machine. What did he owe any of them? Releasing DJ would be nice on the human level, but Lucifer doesn't operate on the human level. I don't do what ants ask me to do, and archangels don't do what humans ask of them.

Then Rei and Jon asked him to release DJ. Reilial asked him to release DJ. And the link between Lucifer and Reilial is deep; by her selfless defense at his defection, she may well have showed him the first act of love towards him since being cast into Hell. He owed her DJ, at the very least.

--rR

>For the record, no spoilers are involved here.
>
>It might not even be a matter of time

"Your friend," he replies. "Now it's time for you to go. I've found out what I wanted to know - and you've found out what -you- wanted to know."

Lucifer's words here imply pretty conclusively that he did plan on releasing DJ sooner or later - which make sense. As it stands, we have no indication that Lucifer can operate with an absorbed pilot once he shuts down (we've never seen him do it), and it may well be that part of what makes him so powerful is the fact that he and the Eternal Soldier are two different entities. As for not owing the group any loyalty - most of the time that he was EVA-01 and nothing else, he was hardly aware enough to be anything more than EVA-01. And as you said, he certainly owed Reilael some loyalty.
-Eliot "There's only so much you can say about EVA-01 to people who haven't read the series without serious misinterpretation" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

Actually, the quote (IMHO) implies that Lucifer was prepared to release DJ IF the conditions were right - Lucifer needed to find out who/what DJ was, and DJ needed to find the strength to stand up to his own fear. DJ almost gave up and went down with the ship (again - the first time was in the Dirac Ocean), only this time he decided to fight - and that's what Lucifer needed.

If DJ had given up, there would have been no reason for Lucifer to return DJ - he just would have given up again in the future. But DJ didn't give in - he fought back the only way he could, knowing that he might fail. But at least he tried. And if DJ wasn't willing to give up, neither was Lucifer.

It's a symbiotic relationship - both sides needed each other, but are separate entities nonetheless. Lucifer needed DJ's strength to regain his own, and DJ needed Lucifer's guidance to find his strength (and himself).

I think the second time DJ got "absorbed" was different - rather than being tested by Lucifer (after all, DJ wasn't planning on coming back, and Lucifer had to know if he'd actually "given up"...), it was a concious choice to move beyond this plane of reality. DJ finally accepted his place in the cosmos as the Eternal Soldier, and Lucifer just helped him get where he was going. I wouldn't be surprised to find DJ up in "heaven" keeping an eye on things and waiting fo just the right moment to return and finish his task...

Of course, all of this is my opinion, and I've been known to be wrong...

Offsides

#include <speculation.h>

>If DJ had given up, there would have been no reason for Lucifer to
>return DJ - he just would have given up again in the future. But DJ
>didn't give in - he fought back the only way he could, knowing
>that he might fail. But at least he tried. And if DJ wasn't
>willing to give up, neither was Lucifer.

I dunno about that. If DJ had been "weighed and found wanting", so to speak, I can't imagine that Lucifer would really want to keep the quitter's spirit bouncing around inside of him. I imagine that the scene would have ended much worse - or, for comic appeal, with DJ's new body being ejected out with great force from EVA-01's mouth, followed by Lucifer adding in his deep voice, "...and the horse you rode in on!"
-Eliot "Yes, I just reread the Evangelion FLASH! trailer, why do you ask?" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>I dunno about that. If DJ had been "weighed and found wanting", so to
>speak, I can't imagine that Lucifer would really want to keep the
>quitter's spirit bouncing around inside of him. I imagine that the
>scene would have ended much worse - or, for comic appeal, with DJ's
>new body being ejected out with great force from EVA-01's mouth,
>followed by Lucifer adding in his deep voice, "...and the horse you
>rode in on!"

Ahh... but why return him if he was found wanting? Why not just let DJ die and pass his spirit along to heavan/hell like any other mortal (even if he is the Eternal Soldier, the body is still mortal)? I don't think he'd want to be in a position to have DJ around at all if DJ failed the test...

Offsides

#include <judgement.h>

>Ahh... but why return him if he was found wanting? Why not
>just let DJ die and pass his spirit along to heavan/hell like any
>other mortal (even if he is the Eternal Soldier, the body is still
>mortal)? I don't think he'd want to be in a position to have DJ
>around at all if DJ failed the test...

I don't imagine he'd care. As Tabriel said, "They could not compel Lucifer before, and they certainly cannot now." (Quote slightly mangled.) If he doesn't want DJ to pilot him, DJ's not piloting him. And if he wants to remain inert, he will remain inert. In short: Lucifer wouldn't really have reason to care if DJ was around or not, so send the little whelp back, see if perhaps he can be improved.
-Eliot "Then again, it all depends on whether letting him die or not was more effort" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

Why would Lucifer hurt DJ?

I mean, really, what would be the benefit? Why would an angel seeking redemption hurt another soul?

After all, he kept (and sheltered) the Rei Prototype. We can speculate that it was because it was Rei was a friend...but Lucifer wasn't fully conscious at that point. He instinctively kept her after absorbing, rather than destorying her fractured soul.

Admittedly I assume the Lightbringer could have destroyed her soul. I don't know the In Nomine rules or if they even apply, so I can't be sure.

Furthermore, he went on to help Tabris to whom he owed zip, despite Tabris' fit. Tabris chose to see Rei first. Lucifer, I suspect, was an afterthought, after it became clear that he was alive.

Now the cynical among us could say, "he needed Tabris' help!". Maybe. Maybe Tabriel is someting Lucifer couldn't have done without Tabris. Or maybe he didn't think of it until Tabris showed up. Still, he didn't have to do anything.

I've seen nothing to indicate that Lucifer is the type that would just swat someone because that person annoyed him.

Furthermore, if Lucifer is really returning to Heaven, wouldn't he want to help DJ redeem his soul? Isn't that what angels do?

thoughts,
t.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

>Admittedly I assume the Lightbringer could have destroyed her soul. I
>don't know the In Nomine rules or if they even apply, so I
>can't be sure.

Just as a point of reference, Lucifer in In Nomine, just like God, is for the most part a (forgive me) deus ex machina. He has effectively infinite power, being capable of things even Demon Princes can't do. His only functional differences from God in the game are a) the side he's on, and b) he actually bums about in a Vessel from time to time.

Inasfar as soul-destruction is concerned, I'd say it's well within Lucifer's power to unravel the Forces that compose a soul.

-- Bob
---------------
Come to the Wired. Ask for Lain. I will help you.
-- from Serial Experiments Lain: The Legend Continues

>Just as a point of reference, Lucifer in In Nomine, just like
>God, is for the most part a (forgive me) deus ex machina. He has
>effectively infinite power, being capable of things even Demon Princes
>can't do. His only functional differences from God in the game are a)
>the side he's on, and b) he actually bums about in a Vessel from time
>to time.

Which is, frankly, one of the reasons he becomes much more manageable as a full-fledged character in his current seriously-weakened state. :)

>Inasfar as soul-destruction is concerned, I'd say it's well within
>Lucifer's power to unravel the Forces that compose a soul.

Personally, I would think that any Archangel or Demon Prince could do this... if they were willing to exert themselves a bit, and deal with the consequences of their actions afterward. I don't remember whether that's canon, but it feels right to me. :)

--truss.
"You just disassembled my best soldier."
"I did that, yes."

LAST EDITED ON Jun-28-01 AT 01:09 PM (EDT)

>>Inasfar as soul-destruction is concerned, I'd say it's well within
>>Lucifer's power to unravel the Forces that compose a soul.
>Personally, I would think that any Archangel or Demon Prince could do
>this... if they were willing to exert themselves a bit, and deal with
>the consequences of their actions afterward. I don't remember whether
>that's canon, but it feels right to me. :)

I feel reasonably comfortable speaking ex cathedra on this one even without being able to consult either my books or the line editor: given that all Superiors can make like Playdoh with Forces and pump out Servitors at will, and given that even "ordinary" Celestial combat can destroy a soul by lopping off Forces one by one, a Superior should be able to shred a Servitor with little effort, and Lucifer should be able to do it by blinking funny.

-- Bob
---------------
Come to the Wired. Ask for Lain. I will help you.
-- from Serial Experiments Lain: The Legend Continues

>and Lucifer should be
>able to do it by blinking funny.

Darn it, Bob, now I have this very bad picture of DJ being recreated, Rei and Jon winking at Lucifer, Lucifer winking back without thinking, and then having the entire cast watch on in horror as Rei and Jon burn away into ash... ;>
-Eliot "Not entirely accurate, I'm sure, but funny" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>Darn it, Bob, now I have this very bad picture of DJ being recreated,
>Rei and Jon winking at Lucifer, Lucifer winking back without thinking,
>and then having the entire cast watch on in horror as Rei and Jon burn
>away into ash... ;>

<snort><laugh>

-- Bob
---------------
Come to the Wired. Ask for Lain. I will help you.
-- from Serial Experiments Lain: The Legend Continues

SHATTER

Curse you.

>Darn it, Bob, now I have this very bad picture of DJ being recreated,
>Rei and Jon winking at Lucifer, Lucifer winking back without thinking,
>and then having the entire cast watch on in horror as Rei and Jon burn
>away into ash... ;>

Slightly off topic, yet somehow not... *cues stereo*

The statue got me high
The statue got me high
The monument of granite sent a beam into my eye
The statue made me die
The statue made me die
It took my hand it killed me and it turned me to the sky

The stone it called to me
(and now I see the things the stone has shown to me)
A rock that spoke a word
(an animated mineral it can be heard)

And though I once preferred a human being's company
They pale before the monolith that towers over me

The statue got me high
The statue got me high
The truth is where the sculptor's chisel chipped away the lie
The statue made me fry
The statue made me fry
My coat contained a furnace where there used to be a guy

The stone it called to me
(and now I see the things the stone has shown to me)
A rock that spoke a word
(an animated mineral it can be heard)

And as the screaming fire engine siren filled the air
The evidence had vanished from my charred and smoking chair
And what they found was just a statue
Standing where the statue got me high
And what they found was just a statue
Standing where the statue got me high

And now it is your turn
(your turn to hear the stone and then your turn to burn)
The stone it calls to you
(you can't refuse to do the things it tells you to)

And as the screaming fire engine siren fills the air
The evidence will vanish from your charred and smoking chair
And what they found was just a statue
Standing where the statue got me high
And what they'll find is just a statue
Standing where the statue got you high

-They Might Be Giants, "The Statue Got me High", Apollo 18

Alath A'Tharen

This space intentionally left blank.

>>>Inasfar as soul-destruction is concerned, I'd say it's well within
>>>Lucifer's power to unravel the Forces that compose a soul.
>>Personally, I would think that any Archangel or Demon Prince could do
>>this... if they were willing to exert themselves a bit, and deal with
>>the consequences of their actions afterward. I don't remember whether
>>that's canon, but it feels right to me. :)
>
>I feel reasonably comfortable speaking ex cathedra on this one
>even without being able to consult either my books or the line editor:
> given that all Superiors can make like Playdoh with Forces and pump
>out Servitors at will, and given that even "ordinary" Celestial combat
>can destroy a soul by lopping off Forces one by one, a Superior should
>be able to shred a Servitor with little effort, and Lucifer should be
>able to do it by blinking funny.

Actually, I think I have the answer to this...sort of by putting both of yours together: A starting angel has 9 Forces. I have no idea how many Tabris or the Rei prototype had, but since both were broken (And Tabris was in that hellacious fight at Second Impact) I think what Lucifer did was take the forces of both of them and recombine them into a single powerful Celestial. Even Lucifer can't make Forces out of nothing, after all...they have to come from the Symphony one way or another. I think Lucifer had to be spurred to action through Tabris' assault on him, of course, but once he finally came to again, the result was a Celestial that solved both Tabris' and the Rei proto's problems, and gave him a servitor and a voice in the Seraphim Council as well.

--"I invoke the rites of fiery Muspelheim, and give thy soul up to the inferno's embrace..."

> Actually, I think I have the answer to this...sort of by putting
>both of yours together: A starting angel has 9 Forces. I have no idea
>how many Tabris or the Rei prototype had, but since both were broken
>(And Tabris was in that hellacious fight at Second Impact) I think
>what Lucifer did was take the forces of both of them and recombine
>them into a single powerful Celestial.

DING!

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>I think
>what Lucifer did was take the forces of both of them and recombine
>them into a single powerful Celestial.

Well, yeah, I thought that was blindingly obvious from the St. Peter scene.

What we were talking about was how easy it would have been for Lucifer to crush and destroy him rather than rebuild him. (Ack. "We can rebuild him. We have the Forces." Cue theme music for The Six Million Dollar Angel...)

-- Bob
---------------
Come to the Wired. Ask for Lain. I will help you.
-- from Serial Experiments Lain: The Legend Continues

>Well, yeah, I thought that was blindingly obvious from the St. Peter
>scene.
>
>What we were talking about was how easy it would have been for Lucifer
>to crush and destroy him rather than rebuild him. (Ack. "We can
>rebuild him. We have the Forces." Cue theme music for The Six
>Million Dollar Angel...)

Ah. I thought you were trying to figure out how, in the In Nomine rules, two celestials could be merged. Everyone was dancing around it but never quite hitting it. The fact is, Lucifer could have easily destroyed them and then created his Servitor, by disbanding all their Forces first and -then- combining them...but this is not the way to ingratiate oneself with the Host, now is it? =P

--"I invoke the rites of fiery Muspelheim, and give thy soul up to the inferno's embrace..."

>Ah. I thought you were trying to figure out how, in the In Nomine
>rules, two celestials could be merged. Everyone was dancing around it
>but never quite hitting it.

I'd have to check with the Line Editor on this one, but there are no explicit rules for this kind of thing, and I'd have to say probably never will be. If a Servitor can't do it, there's no rule to cover it; that's because Superiors and above are GM fiat territory, at the very least to simulate the ineffability of miracle. IN handles it by not handling it.

> The fact is, Lucifer could have easily
>destroyed them and then created his Servitor, by disbanding all their
>Forces first and -then- combining them...but this is not the way to
>ingratiate oneself with the Host, now is it? =P

Not at all. <grin>

-- Bob
---------------
"Shinji. Same name as the master key -- well done, Ikari. Shinji can't be
copied. Splendid plan." -- Tabris, in Tenshi Muyo! Rei-o-ohki

>IN handles it by not handling it.

Both a good and bad plan to use in rules... when dealing with miracles, it makes sense, but I can't tell you how annoying White Wolf's tendency to just leave very powerful entities at this level. "The third generation succeeds at anything it tries to do." Well, that's all well and good, meaning that no matter the circumstances someone of the third generation can do what they want? Meaning that while on fire they can still play a flawless symphony?

Part of it, of course, is that I've got an age-old frustration with omnipotence. Nothing of man born is omnipotent or perfect. No matter how close it may appear to be, it's flawed in some way. Everybody's got some degree of weakness, even the gods themselves.
-Eliot "There's an old argument I had about this" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

>>IN handles it by not handling it.
>
>Both a good and bad plan to use in rules... when dealing with
>miracles, it makes sense, but I can't tell you how annoying White
>Wolf's tendency to just leave very powerful entities at this level.
>"The third generation succeeds at anything it tries to do." Well,
>that's all well and good, meaning that no matter the circumstances
>someone of the third generation can do what they want? Meaning that
>while on fire they can still play a flawless symphony?

I don't think it's supposed to be -that- extensive...and of course, no responsible GM would, either.
But that's the key: responsible GM'ing. Sure you can go out and have a Monty Haul campaign where everyone's an Assamite with Quietus 6 and rocket launchers. But what's the damned point? I like having twink-type games on occasion, too. But that's what Baldur's Gate II is for. I don't take that attitude to the gaming table....it's not what it's there for.

>
>Part of it, of course, is that I've got an age-old frustration with
>omnipotence. Nothing of man born is omnipotent or perfect. No matter
>how close it may appear to be, it's flawed in some way. Everybody's
>got some degree of weakness, even the gods themselves.

You and me both--in fact, I've demonstrated this before when I've questioned things like DJ's and Kaitlyn's skills and whatnot. I'm just showing my paranoid GM/MUX wiz side there, I guess. But, there are three little words that solve this whole problem. Deus ex machina. If you remember to think of them as GM territory completely, as a plot device rather than even a real person in your story, you can use them sparingly and have what you want to happen happen without feeling as though you're bitching your players. Just remember to keep it rare, keep it fair, and never, ever explain what you're doing OOCly. They should never have the whole story. And since you have complete control, feel free to give them whatever weaknesses you like. The players will never be able to utilize them, because you'll never let slip what they are. You'll notice how frequent the 'I'm not answering that' posts Gryphon, Megazone, or Truss will put up here for specifically this reason. Stories are much more fun when you haven't read the last page first.

--"I invoke the rites of fiery Muspelheim, and give thy soul up to the inferno's embrace..."

>If I had to venture a guess, the
>odd mixture the first time around was a marker for the friendly techs
>to know that he wasn't really gone

actually, I jsut did a quick skim of 3:2, and saw something interesting. Unless it was done, and not mentionned...no one ever did a GENETIC scan of DJ after Lucifer let him go. How do they know he's still made of carbon and water and whatnot, like a normal person...we know angel 'DNA' is close to human. There might be no remains in the second case, because the body Lucifer absorbed wasn't the same.

Now, there are several assumptions in there, including that no one gave him an exam 'deeper' than first-aid/electrolyte-balance. Just remember, the components of his original body were lost, so whatever Lucifer returned, even though it had DJ's soul, was not his original body...

This is an interesting theory, although I'd tend to doubt that NERV wouldn't pour over DJ after he'd been recreated from scratch. It would explain not leaving any remains, and it could be used to explain why his EVA talent changed so dramatically, but I'd think something like that might screw with being the Eternal Soldier.

I'd assume that NERV did at least rudimentary DNA testing to make sure that he was really all right. But I could be filling in the pages that are being intentionally left blank.
-Eliot "I don't have a witty quote for this one" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendance Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

I've been having fun reading this thread, and don't want to short-circuit any speculation discussions... but I think this bit is harmless enough:

>I'd assume that NERV did at least rudimentary DNA testing to make sure
>that he was really all right. But I could be filling in the pages
>that are being intentionally left blank.

Oh, yeah. I'm not going to go into biological specifics (mainly because my knowledge of bio is crap :) -- but suffice to say that DJ was run through quite a few tests after that, and that his readings came out normal.

Well, as much as anything can be considered "normal" after that. :)

--truss.
["We haven't blown one up to get baselines," the tech responded.]

>Oh, yeah. I'm not going to go into biological specifics (mainly
>because my knowledge of bio is crap :) -- but suffice to say that DJ
>was run through quite a few tests after that, and that his readings
>came out normal.
>
>Well, as much as anything can be considered "normal" after that. :)

ah, well...I fgured that was probably the case, but it was an entertaining theory while it was kicking around my head :)

>--truss.
>["We haven't blown one up to get baselines," the tech
>responded.]

you know, taken in this context, that quote is just so wrong.
Besides, I don't think Asuka would like you blowing up her boyfriend :)

LAST EDITED ON Jun-26-01 AT 12:44 PM (EDT)

>Oh, yeah. I'm not going to go into biological specifics (mainly
>because my knowledge of bio is crap :) -- but suffice to say that DJ
>was run through quite a few tests after that, and that his readings
>came out normal.
>Well, as much as anything can be considered "normal" after that. :)

Well, assuming that this is one area where IN rules haven't been chucked in favor of dramatic necessity, a Celestial Vessel is pretty much indistinguishable from a normal human body to medical tests. I think it's pretty likely that no matter what it seems to be, DJ's third-season physical form is actually a Vessel crafted by Lucifer in the image of his original body.

-- Bob
---------------
Come to the Wired. Ask for Lain. I will help you.
-- from Serial Experiments Lain: The Legend Continues

>Well, assuming that this one area where IN rules haven't been chucked
>in favor of dramatic necessity, a Celestial Vessel is pretty much
>indistinguishable from a normal human body to medical tests. I think
>it's pretty likely that no matter what it seems to be, DJ's
>third-season physical form is actually a Vessel crafted by Lucifer in
>the image of his original body.

While it's never come up in discussion between the authors, I'd say you're probably right. (Or close enough to right that it won't make any difference.)

--truss.

LAST EDITED ON Jul-07-01 AT 05:21 PM (EDT)

>Well, assuming that this is one area where IN rules haven't been
>chucked in favor of dramatic necessity, a Celestial Vessel is pretty
>much indistinguishable from a normal human body to medical tests. I
>think it's pretty likely that no matter what it seems to be, DJ's
>third-season physical form is actually a Vessel crafted by Lucifer in
>the image of his original body.

Going by what I've read in the GURPS In Nomine book (I picked it up to help me make more sense of NXE, and because the concepts are cool...), a Vessel is entirely mortal-seeming to medical tests. Which does lend itself to helping explain where DJ's body went - it 'vanished into potentiality' the way most Vessels do when the occupants go celestial.

(The next day...)

Ahem... To finish writing things down... And clarify my own confused train of thought...

Ritsuko was expecting to find the dissolved junk in the LCL, since this had happened before, with Rei-P/T. That matched their expectations, and thus we can safely conclude that DJ's entire mortal form was destroyed by his absorption.

This means that either Lucifer somehow created a brand-new human body for DJ (which, last I heard, wasn't really all that possible, even for Archangels - otherwise Saints would have fully human bodies, I'd think, out of preference.), or DJ is now inhabiting a Vessel crafted by Lucifer when he gave him back to Rei and Jon.

I favor the Vessel idea, because it's a really simple explanation for why there wasn't any remains of DJ's body this time. When he was absorbed, his Vessel would have 'vanished' the way celestial vessels do, hence the lack of junk in the LCL that confused Natla and company. DJ, in my deranged opinion, is probably hiding out with Lucifer's celestial essence, waiting for the chance to cause trouble for SEELE and save the world, as the Soldier is supposed to do.

One other freakish thought that ran through my mind is this: DJ is the Eternal Soldier. With In Nomine, Soldiers are mortals who have gained an awareness of the Symphony, of the War, and a measure of control over their own Essence - as well as the power to use certain celestial abilities - like Songs and Attunements. Probably off base with it, but it sounds good... A Saint and a Soldier at one and the same time, gathering ever more power with each lifetime in the form of levels of Power Investiture...

-Khirsah the Deranged
"I only wake up at sunset."

And I read the next post on the thread and my multi-million dollar rise to the top is quashed by a 40-foot full-on macking monolith. How very broly of you, El Truss-o. :\{ (frowny-quashed)

>This is an interesting theory, although I'd tend to doubt that NERV
>wouldn't pour over DJ after he'd been recreated from scratch. It
>would explain not leaving any remains, and it could be used to explain
>why his EVA talent changed so dramatically, but I'd think something
>like that might screw with being the Eternal Soldier.
>
>I'd assume that NERV did at least rudimentary DNA testing to make sure
>that he was really all right. But I could be filling in the pages
>that are being intentionally left blank.
>-Eliot "I don't have a witty quote for this one" Lefebvre
>-=()=-
>We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most
>of it.
>Electronic Transcendance Productions
>Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.

That could explain the 3:9 goings-on. DJ is running about(con permiso) in a Runabout Lucifer. Fweird. So, DJ's flying back in to dock for an overhaul to scamper from Bad Guys Mk. 2 and do the Andy Kaufman as Mighty Mouse thing. And if all goes according to the theoretical plan I'm making up, then Luke and Croft pop up right smack dab in the middle of wherever the hell SEELE HQ is.

I do apologize if I gave anything away.

(If you Godly Editors want to use that, be my guest. Of course, this is probably the 1:35 AM with nothing to survive on but Jolt, caffeine gum and grilled cheese sammiches.)

"Take THAT!, Corporate America!"

(Innovafertimus as he casts an 82-mana Drain Life on a 2/2 Corporate America token.)

Un-Corporate God

Innovafertimus

Yeah, it's replying to my own topic, but it should be very clear that I'm not the only person who's posting to this. ;>

I don't know if Gryph accidentally let some things slip, but here's the conclusions (entirely on-topic ones, anyhow) that I've been able to discern.

• DJ never had the EVA talent.
  
• Resonance between his essence and Lucifer allowed him to pilot EVA-01, and a similar effect allowed him to pilot Moloch briefly. The only other Evangelion he rode in was Grendel, with Asuka piloting. He cannot pilot production models.
  
• His body from 3:2 onward was a Vessel created by Lucifer. He's still human, but his body could be recalled without leaving any trace...
  
• ...which is exactly what happened in 3:9. Lucifer's just smart enough to keep the body hidden for a little while.
  
• Asuka Soryu-Langley is a weapon. ;>
  

There. It's settled, then. ;>
-Eliot "Now let's move to the Rei thread before this becomes another 'NXE Hostility'" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendence Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.