http://briefcase.yahoo.com/rouge_za_bat

its all here!

>http://briefcase.yahoo.com/rouge_za_bat
>
>its all here!

(deja vu... )

Wow... anti-fanart. I'm impressed.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>>http://briefcase.yahoo.com/rouge_za_bat
>>
>>its all here!
>
>(deja vu... )
>
>Wow... anti-fanart. I'm impressed.

I'm not. I mean, if you're going to spend time on dreck like that, couldn't it at least have been funny? And not homophobic. How old and sad is that? I hope like hell the artist isn't a kid. It's sad to see them corrupted and pathetic so young.

Although, it is said that you can tell the quality of a man by his enemies...

t.
who isn't offended, really.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

>I'm not.

Impressed with drawing ability... not at all impressed with the choice of subject material. There's a distinction, at least in my eyes.

>I mean, if you're going to spend time on dreck like that,
>couldn't it at least have been funny?

Nope. Then it wouldn't have been drek. Silly Trigger. ;>

>And not homophobic.

It seemed less homophobic and more degrading than anything else. I'd hardly give it the credit of having that much merit.

>Although, it is said that you can tell the quality of a man by his
>enemies...

Which still doesn't say much, at least in this guy's case. Gryph certainly doesn't much seem to care, so I'd hardly classify him as an enemy.

>t.
>who isn't offended, really.

To that, I direct thee to a little essay by a Mr. Rob Jung, who has summed it up in his simple statement that people are stupid, including you and I. Yes, it does have a good point. Yes, it is worth reading. No, it's not an insult.
-Eliot "Consider Socrates for a moment" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendence Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.
Thoughts of the moment, and such

LAST EDITED ON Aug-15-01 AT 04:01 PM (EDT)

I realize that and appreciate the effort to convince me that the artist is not worth my time of day. The essay is interesting, but not likely to change my mind on these sorts of things. I'm actually not angry - it takes more than sophmoric art to cause that.

This doesn't forgo the fact that I still don't have to like rougebat's work.

t.
who has said her piece.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

>Ah, I meant to express that absolutely nothing about the situation
>(post, art, choice of subject material - not to impuge NXE, just that
>it could have been Ren and Stipy, or the Absigenians and St. Dominic,
>and I would still have the same opinion) impressed me.

See, I'm just inherently jealous of anyone with something that remotely resembles drawing talent, so it's almost certainly just me. If I could, like, actually draw well, the situation might be different. ;>

>I realize that and appreciate the effort to convince me that the
>artist is not worth my time of day. The essay is interesting, but not
>likely to change my mind on these sorts of things. I'm actually not
>angry - it takes more than sophmoric art to cause that.

Who was trying to convince you of that? I was just offering an interesting link that pertained to the situation at hand.

You're pretty stupid for not realizing it. But, I'm pretty stupid for not making it clearer, and I'm really stupid for posting it in the first place. ;>

>This doesn't forgo the fact that I still don't have to like rougebat's
>work. In knowing myself, I recognize that I have a certain level of
>intolerance for certain activities, and stupidly believe that I
>should use my voice when encountering said activities. Call it
>self-righteouness. Call it personal integrity. Consider it an
>unwholesome belief in the power of the individual to change matters,
>since the artist did advertise on a semi-public forum, and thus
>solicited the opinions of the posters therein.

As I stated: the point was not, "Shut the hell up, Trigger." The point was, "As long as we're on the subject, here's another something that this reminds me of in a roundabout way." Moreover, I don't think Rob's point was to tell people "don't complain when people do stupid things" so much as "don't let yourself act stupid in reaction". Really, the only reason you beat me to the same conclusion was because I was busy doing, like, actual work.

So, if I didn't make it clear enough in my previous post (which, upon further examination, I may well not have), allow me to state firmly: I agree with you completely, and I in no way find your viewpoint invalid or incorrect. And while I could go into a very long rant about why I agree with you, I won't, mostly because I suspect I'd be preaching to the choir. ;>
-Eliot "Wonder why the HTML got screwy in your post" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendence Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.
Thoughts of the moment, and such

LAST EDITED ON Aug-15-01 AT 04:20 PM (EDT)

<grin>
I guess I didn't change my post fast enough....

anyway, I agree, in all particulars. Sorry it sounded more irate than it was. I'll conveniently blame it on the headache I've had for the last three days.

Eliot, I'd never be angry at _you_. ;)

t.
who wants to see some real fan art

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

>who wants to see some real fan art

well, we've got a bit of it, on the main NXE page...

A couple of people are working on SOS art, too, but nothing's ready for release yet.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

LAST EDITED ON Aug-16-01 AT 02:08 PM (EDT)

Well... this is Laudre's "Kewl Sekrit Projext" cowriter, Lore, and I can draw. I hope. Anyway, just as part of my introduction, I'll work on some NXE fanart, and post it when I'm done. Most probably it'll be either shojo manga or cel-style, no promises because I got dragooned into doing some stuff for someone and have to get it done on a deadline.

I'll probably post it as a new thread or something.

-Lore

"I'm not the Messiah. I don't do miracles"

>Well... this is Laudre's "Kewl Sekrit Projext" cowriter, Lore, and I
>can draw. I hope.

You can. I've seen evidence of that. ;>
-Eliot "I know some of the se-crets, I know some of the se-crets..." Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendence Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.
Thoughts of the moment, and such

Well, like I promised, I did do fanart. Just decided to drop the link here because it's been close to 12 hours and nobody looked. Guess this thread is more busy or something.

http://www.eyrie-productions.com/Forum-docs/DCForumID5/41.html

Lore:
artist, writer, hopeless online comic fangirl, shameless Tycho/Gabe shipper.
"I'm not the Messiah. I don't do miracles."

>>who wants to see some real fan art
>
>well, we've got a bit of it, on the main NXE page...

I have, and I've searched the net for other works as well. Its just that I really, really, really like NXE.

>A couple of people are working on SOS art, too, but nothing's
>ready for release yet.

Oooohh!!! Very exciting.

t.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

><grin>
>I guess I didn't change my post fast enough....

Well, when I've got pretty much nothing to do at work but reply to posts, I'm pretty fast at doing it. ;>

>anyway, I agree, in all particulars. Sorry it sounded more irate than
>it was.

It's okay. I was afraid that my follow-up sounded rather irate as well, which was definitely not the attempt.

>I'll conveniently blame it on the headache I've had for the
>last three days.

Ah. Had those, before. ;>

>Eliot, I'd never be angry at _you_. ;)

<warm fuzzy feeing>Awwww...</warm fuzzy feeling>
-Eliot "And everything's all wrapped up. Faster than usual." Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendence Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.
Thoughts of the moment, and such

Eliot,

I'm reading that essay again. It's the only thing keeping me launching a nasty, soul-shrivling post. <sigh> You can guess the cause. I'm hoping no one responds to it.

"Some people will just, like, not do"

thanks for keeping me from acting like a choad.
t.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

>I'm reading that essay again. It's the only thing keeping me
>launching a nasty, soul-shrivling post. <sigh> You can guess the
>cause. I'm hoping no one responds to it.

I already did respond. So did a few other people. If I'd actually been even remotely angered by the post, I wouldn't have dared.

Yeah, it was stupid of me. But it was calmly stupid, and it's the last I plan on saying about it. Hey, we all do stupid thing.

More power to ya, though. ;>
-Eliot "Glad it helped" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendence Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.
Thoughts of the moment, and such

>http://briefcase.yahoo.com/rouge_za_bat
>
>its all here!

Wow... so much time and energy devoted to... this?

If I could draw this well I don't think I'd be wasting my time on something so juvenile. The lesson I've learned is that if I don't like something, then I avoid drawing attention to it or expending energy on it in any way(unless I'm reviewing it, or have to take three minutes to rant about it in order to let off steam).

Just think of all the artwork that could have been done for something rougebat <strong>liked</strong> if he hadn't been busy doing this.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

>Just think of all the artwork that could have been done for something
>rougebat liked if he hadn't been busy doing this.

True, but then he/she/it wouldn't be able to see the results of his/her/its flamebait.

------------------------
"Just don't look! Just don't look! Just don't look!"
------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

>Wow... so much time and energy devoted to... this?
>
>If I could draw this well I don't think I'd be wasting my time on
>something so juvenile. The lesson I've learned is that if I don't
>like something, then I avoid drawing attention to it or expending
>energy on it in any way(unless I'm reviewing it, or have to take three
>minutes to rant about it in order to let off steam).
>
>Just think of all the artwork that could have been done for something
>rougebat <strong>liked</strong> if he hadn't been busy doing this.
>
Maybe I'm just strange <OK, bad qualifier, go with my INTENT rather than my exact wording;)> but I was amused. I like NXE, but I can also laugh at people poking fun at it. Just my nature, I try not to take too many things with a stoney face <this serves both to reduce stress and to punctuate those time I DO take something absolutely seriously>. Just my .02 cents, YMMV, yada yada.

-={(Astynax)}=-
"Posting on half a brain...."

>than my exact wording;)> but I was amused. I like NXE, but I can also
>laugh at people poking fun at it.

I might have been, had there been the faintest hint of wit or humor. But it was just someone being nasty and then trolling, hoping to see vociferous flameage. I'm sure rougebat was disappointed by our relative indifference.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

Well, this is.....

Really lousy actually. One, if you're going to draw something, spend some time on it. Two, if you don't like NXE, you don't have to read it. If you're going to be so rude about this, the exit is that way.

Didn't we already have the whole anti-NXE debate already?

Matrix Dragon

>Didn't we already have the whole anti-NXE debate already?

Let's not resurrect that thread again. I did it once, and boy, do I ever regret it. ;>
-Eliot "Whee, my post numbers look screwy" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendence Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.
Thoughts of the moment, and such

>Let's not resurrect that thread again. I did it once, and boy, do I ever >regret it. ;>

I know. What I meant was, we've had all that shit before, now let's move on with our lives.

Matrix Dragon

>I know. What I meant was, we've had all that shit before, now let's
>move on with our lives.

No! Let's dwell on it!
-Eliot "Yes, I'm kidding" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendence Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.
Thoughts of the moment, and such

>http://briefcase.yahoo.com/rouge_za_bat
>
>its all here!

Rei looks fairly close to true in #3, but doesn't even vaguely resemble herself in #1.

Shinji doesn't look like any version of Shinji in pic #4, and the background characters are more caricature than anything else. Also, I believe that DJ prefers a shoulder holster, and the pistol is, IMO, a bit low for a cross-draw anyhow. (He's left-handed, remember.)

None of the drawings of DJ even vaguely resemble the image I've built from the descriptions in NXE, and it doesn't help that you felt the need to label DJ in order to point out where he was in three of the four drawings. Nor is it particularly useful to have DJ being attacked by a character who doesn't exist in the series, as far as I know. Perhaps you could replace this person with Ritsuko Akagi, and have her going after DJ with a scalpel, instead of a knife.

Finally, you are a choad.

Peter Eng
--
A coward dies a thousand deaths, a brave man only one.
Xena dies once per season, apparently for practice.

Ahem, I could say nothing and go with Gryph and be offhanded about HOW Un-orginial your ideas are.
I could do alot of things.
I could say alot more.
including JIHAD!
But it wouldn't be prudent at this time.
So, here's what I think.

It's lower then whale shit. IT plain sucks.
I know of a couple really good fan artists, and I personally know a couple from other fan groups.
I can say with out a doubt that You need to grow up and IF you want to be a fanartist you got to learn to respect other people's work.
You can't just do what you did and not expect people to go "yay!!" about it.
Grow up, do something right and apologize. OR it's JIHAD! time...
Fan Who's itiching to pick a good fight.
JIHAAAAAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh my! What indifference is this, again? \^n_n^/

Just to calm you, I'll explain why I decided to waste a few minutes of my life drawing derogatory pictures of the worst fanfic character ever....

"NEE" is the most nauseating, PAINFUL fanfic I have ever read. I choked on "Artemis's Lover". I shuddered at (insert David Gonterman fanfic). I cried blood after reading the Ranma 1/2-NGE crossover.

But I experienced actual physical pain when I attempted to read the oh-so-wonderful exploits of DJ Croft usurping the true hero of Evangelion and writing himself as up as the best thing since sliced bread.

DJ has NO redeeming qualities- I suppose that's what struck me so harshly while trying to read NEE. Even though the author has a decent grip on the english language, (indeed, his writing is quite good) the character he created posesses none of the emotions, (indeed, any emotions apart from maybe smug arrogance) quirks and insecurities that made Shinji such a likeable character. NEE then goes on to trample all the cultural references and canon characters of NGE into the dust with glee, destroying its biblical references, and collapsing into itself in a fantastic display of the author's own bloated, desperate egoism. Even the self-pitying xenophobia of David Gonterman's stories pales in comparison to the slick, elegant sexism and self-inflation created by "DJ Croft" as he sculpts all of the canon aspects of NGE to suit his own security blanket fanfic and forget that he's really as dull and miserable as every normal human being.

Were DJ Croft an _original_ character in an _original_ series, I wouldn't give a fig about him. But he insisted on raping one of the most fascinating anime/manga in existance to-date with his self-sucking reinterpretation.

I have a very bad feeling about how this thread is gonna go from now on.
*winces and ducks for cover*

-Lore

"What, the Engineering people decided red ones went faster?"

LAST EDITED ON Aug-17-01 AT 03:11 PM (EDT)

Wow.

Now I don't feel so bad about posting "Paradigm City" way back...

Funny though, with all your respect and worship for NGE and your apparent hatred of "fags", you seemed to have no problem depicting your beloved Shinji as one.

--rR

>
>Funny though, with all your respect and worship for NGE and your
>apparent hatred of "fags", you seemed to have no problem depicting
>your beloved Shinji as one.

Ironic that you would use that cheap argument as a rebuttal rather than actually respond to any of the content in the post. It's as if you're attempting to sidestep any of the many valid points rougebat brought up and replace them with an off-base accusation.

The mere act of showing DJ giving Shinji a blowjob doesn't even mean that she is homophobic, but rather is her way of showing that DJ is inferior to Shinji to the point where he had to give him sexual favors for his place in the show. It is a way of demeaning DJ without even going into what sexuality he may have. Blowjobs are blowjobs. Shinji would feel pleasure regardless of the gender giving them, and the issue in the picture is a power play.

Plus, it's hilarious.

If you can’t understand that and instead must resort to the endless "you are a mean, nasty homophobe" argument, then you are only worth of the pap that is NXE. I’m not a bit surprised that you would enjoy it, considering that you seem unable to comprehend any of the more subtle points in NGE.

BTW, rougebat. Guess who?

>BTW, rougebat. Guess who?

Wow - six months of quiet operation, then a troll and a sock puppet in the same week. I guess the boards have arrived at last.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>>BTW, rougebat. Guess who?
>
>Wow - six months of quiet operation, then a troll and a sock puppet in
>the same week. I guess the boards have arrived at last.

I owe you an apology, Gryph. All the times I ever heard you mention anything about 'anti-NXE' furor, somewhere in the back of my head I always imagined you were embellishing a little for flavor, my mind not letting me comprehend that it could be 100% true, that anyone would give that much of a shit to expend this kind of energy.

I've always been a firm believer in the idea that hate is not the opposite of love, that the true opposite of love is apathy, for you have to care about something to hate it. So, in a way, I guess this could be kind of a compliment. Demented and sad, but...heh.

Just thought I'd apologize for my lack of faith before this thread gets locked or Stalinized. :)

------------------------
"saaaausaaaage... "
------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

>I've always been a firm believer in the idea that hate is not the
>opposite of love, that the true opposite of love is apathy, for you
>have to care about something to hate it. So, in a way, I guess this
>could be kind of a compliment. Demented and sad, but...heh.

Actually, I really don't hate the series as much as other people do. The major problems I have with it is that it is a monumental waste of time, and the characters are very unlikeble in their own right. But I suppose supporting rougebat in her argument, or actually KNOWING her from somewhere automatically means I can be dismissed as a troll. Or a sockpuppet.

You would think you had never been criticized before, or trolled for that matter. This is the most dull flame war I've ever been involved in...why I expected better, I'm sure I don't know.

Please, this is the part where you accuse me of being selfish, having no life, or wasting my time. Carry on.

It matters little to me either way. It's just that this is the most interesting thread of the forum, and that is a bit sad when someone considers it with any depth...especially when it's also the most pathetic show of a tinge of life on an already dead (and sucking up) forum. Controversy is usually a good thing, not a trollish thing, unless my blasé mannerisms actually HAVE managed to get you riled up...

>Please, this is the part where you accuse me of being selfish, having
>no life, or wasting my time. Carry on.

No thanks. Don't care. HTH. HAND.

------------------------
"saaaausaaaage... "
------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

>Please, this is the part where you accuse me of being selfish, having
>no life, or wasting my time. Carry on.

Well, actually, you're wasting my time.

Which I suppose, based on your interpretation of NXE, makes us even.

Vaya con Díos,
--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>Well, actually, you're wasting my time.

My deepest apologies, Mr. Hutchins.

If I had known you were just seeking brown-nosing, as opposed to feedback, I would have never post in the first place. Please pardon me for having my own opinion concerning NXE, rather than spoonfeeding you flowery praise up your posterior.

LAST EDITED ON Aug-17-01 AT 09:23 PM (EDT)

>>Well, actually, you're wasting my time.
>
>My deepest apologies, Mr. Hutchins.

You're excused. Try not to make too much noise on your way out. It upsets the gargoyles.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>You're excused.

Best reply I've ever gotten, without a doubt. So you ARE looking for brown-nosing? My goodness, well, I'm sure you'll be able to find plenty of it here. You know, you've proven a theory very near and dear to my heart: if you write tripe, someone is bound to like it eventually...

I feel so much better about my own stories now, all I have to do is wait for the hoards of boot lickers to come parading in...

>I feel so much better about my own stories now, all I have to do is
>wait for the hoards of boot lickers to come parading in...

So where are your stories? If they are posted on the Web, I'll be willing to give them a shot.

Eric J. Heckathorn
ericjh@stargate.net

Sure. I'm setting up an easier to access mirror as I type. It doesn't help that my account on ff.net is curently unavalible...

Here you go. Please, feel free to peruse, and any criticism can be directed to my email address on the page.

http://www.geocities.com/kappeiluv/

>You know, you've proven a theory very near and
>dear to my heart: if you write tripe, someone is bound to like it
>eventually...

And here I figured Hideaki Anno had already proven that to everyone's satisfaction.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>>You know, you've proven a theory very near and
>>dear to my heart: if you write tripe, someone is bound to like it
>>eventually...
>
>And here I figured Hideaki Anno had already proven that to everyone's
>satisfaction.

Zing.

(No, I don't happen to agree with Gryph's opinion of the series, but I rather like that response.)

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

>"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry
>Pratchett

tangentially related: does that sig apply to 'DJ Croft is an SI character'? There certainly seems to be a tribe who ascribe to it, and it's been proven a myth previously, so I'm given to wonder...

-={(Astynax)}=-
"Asbestos suit, check. Plasma-fired Flamethrower, check..."

>And here I figured Hideaki Anno had already proven that to everyone's
>satisfaction.

Oh, I don't know...with all due respect, sir, I don't see any producers beating a path to your door. And I hardly think your series is an improvement, despite what you might think of the original work...

Still, one has to wonder why you based your entire series on the world he created if that's how you view his creation...surely DJ could have been just as happy in an original universe, and then you wouldn't have to deal with such irate criticism from the fans. Of course, if you don't piggyback on the original, you WOULDN'T have any fans, would you?

>Still, one has to wonder why you based your entire series on the world
>he created if that's how you view his creation...surely DJ could have
>been just as happy in an original universe, and then you wouldn't have
>to deal with such irate criticism from the fans. Of course, if you
>don't piggyback on the original, you WOULDN'T have any fans, would
>you?

Ahem.

I have brought NGE because I enjoyed NXE. NXE's writing, clarity, characterizations, and the use of other source materials (like In Nomine and the X-files) made it very enjoyable and I assumed that NGE would be similar.

Boy was I wrong.

The thirty dollars I wasted on NGE (the first DVD set released in the US) could have been spent by my friends and on a good dinner or something actually worthwhile.

For the record, NGE is still sitting at the house of the friend with the DVD player and I have no plans of bringing it back into my house anytime soon.

Anno's vision of Evangelion is interesting, if extremely depressing and juvenile. The Eyrie vision of Evangelion (after all, it is a collaboration, not just the sole vision of Benjamin Hutchins) is also interesting in a completely different manner.

That the elements of NXE could have been written into an excellent story without NGE is fairly obvious. I think, however, that the Eyrie folks liked the characters of Misato, Rei, Asuka, and Maya and wanted to give them a second chance at a better life.

And that they have.

Now that I've "meet" Misato, Rei, and Asuka in their Anno incarnations, I must say this:

Thank God for Eyrie Productions.

While I understand that your loyalty to NGE is commendable, I'd appreciate it if you didn't slam my loyalty to NXE. You don't know whatever reader of this fic series thinks, and surely someone as intelligent as you must realize that there is a sizable community would love to flame Anno, if we could only find him.

Out of courtesy to his fans, I do not post on Evangelion websites the myriad problems I find with his characters, his plot, and his metaphysics. In fact I rather suspect that his fans (like Eyrie's fans) spend thier time praising NGE or talking over small points about the series, the movies, etc. Just like we do on this forum.

So, if we want to talking about DJ Croft, his relationship to Asuka, the fact that Ritsuko isn't a crazed doll in a lab coat, and that Rei is a real person with real problems, and that Ikari Gendou can be saved, then we're in the right place.

If you want to stay, then play nice. If not, have a nice life.

Sincerely,

Trigger

and appreciated the writi
Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

>>Still, one has to wonder why you based your entire series on the world
>>he created if that's how you view his creation...surely DJ could have
>>been just as happy in an original universe, and then you wouldn't have
>>to deal with such irate criticism from the fans. Of course, if you
>>don't piggyback on the original, you WOULDN'T have any fans, would
>>you?
>
>Ahem.
>
>I have brought NGE because I enjoyed NXE. NXE's writing, clarity,
>characterizations, and the use of other source materials (like In
>Nomine and the X-files) made it very enjoyable and I assumed that NGE
>would be similar.
>

You have trouble comprehending what I SAY, don't you? I have no problem with the fact that some might like NXE better. (I could make many rude and sarcastic comments here, but I'll refrain) Let me say it again, in hopes that it reaches you.

DON'T set out to "improve" someone else's series. If you like the themes, but dislike the characters or the setup, then take the time to work something similar (not the EXACT same thing, but since people here insist that NXE is so different, then that wouldn't be a problem, would it) into an original work. Don't just delete characters because YOU don't see their purpose.

DON'T use the name value of the said series to attract people. NXE would have been better off an original series. As it is, the only reason most people paid attention to it was because it piggybacked off of Evangelion. If you had called it something else, and hadn't used the Evas, taken time to CREATE your own characters, instead of randomly selecting those that you "liked", then at least this work would have the merit of originality.

DON'T get all self-righteous if some of the fans of the original series aren't impressed that you took the main character and replaced him with the son of Lara Croft and Fox Mulder and gave him an ego the size of a small country. If you all have the right to like NXE better than NGE it goes the opposite way too.

DON'T dismiss those with very valid criticism about the characterizations (hey, the romance made me want to gag.) and the story, but sit down and actually CONSIDER that they may have a point.

GET a sense of humor about your characters and the story. If some people want to give you an award for "Worst New Character", don't send off a high-brow response, but have a little fun with it.

There, is that so difficult to comprehend?

That one thread everyone keeps on posting as "go read this, it will explain everything!" doesn't explain squat. It's a few fans saying "what if some people came here and they didn't like DJ or NXE?", and the responses were generally something like "It doesn't matter because they don't understand. DJ is cool. And NXE is brilliant." and then "Oh, okay, let's talk about something else off-topic."

Yeah, way to cement your arguments there. If you have a specific post in the thread that address what I'm talking about, shoot. Other than that, it's a waste of my time.

Girlfriend, you need to read your own writing.

You said, and I quote "Of course, if you don't piggyback on the original, you WOULDN'T have any fans, would you?"

Which I understood as "Only people who liked NGE would be interested in NXE".

Now, foolish me. What you actually meant was: "You can't write your own stories without having to borrow from other people".

So your problem isn't with using Neon Genesis Evangelion as source material. It's with the fact that Eyrie writers write fanfiction.

Now before you go and say I'm as simple as Carrot, let's look as some of the things you've written:

DON'T set out to "improve" someone else's series. If you like
>the themes, but dislike the characters or the setup, then take the
>time to work something similar (not the EXACT same thing, but since
>people here insist that NXE is so different, then that wouldn't be a
>problem, would it) into an original work. Don't just delete
>characters because YOU don't see their purpose.

Given that _fan_fiction is based on the idea that you take an existing work, I think that Eyrie is stuck using themes and characters from said work.

Also, given that fanfiction is the author's personal rewrite of the work, then the author can shape that work anyway the author chooses. Which means, changing the location, getting rid of characters, introducing new ones, and even changing the events that occured in the existing work.

If you're going to damn Eyrie for taking these actions, you're also damning all the fanfiction out there. Fanficiton is not the original work. Its a reinterpretation of the orginal.

For a good case study, I suggest you look at "Romeo and Juliet" in its various incarnations, including "Romeo must Die".

>DON'T use the name value of the said series to attract people.
>NXE would have been better off an original series. As it is, the only
>reason most people paid attention to it was because it piggybacked off
>of Evangelion. If you had called it something else, and hadn't used
>the Evas, taken time to CREATE your own characters, instead of
>randomly selecting those that you "liked", then at least this work
>would have the merit of originality.

Again, I would love to use my argument ad hominem posted earlier to note that I had never heard of NGE before reading NXE, but I won't.

Again, you are objecting because fanfiction authors took inspiration from and existing work and ended up with something that has reminders and touches of the original work. The presentation of the original and the implicit criticism of the orginal characterizations offends you.

While I can respect that, and I suspect most of us here would, your complaints still boil down to the fact that Eyrie wrote a fanfiction, like _all_ of their fanfictions that featured some characters from a primary series and warped them to Eyrie's own ends.

Again, I submit, this is standard in fanfiction.

>DON'T get all self-righteous if some of the fans of the
>original series aren't impressed that you took the main character and
>replaced him with the son of Lara Croft and Fox Mulder and gave him an
>ego the size of a small country. If you all have the right to like
>NXE better than NGE it goes the opposite way too.

Which, I think all of us agree with? Well, at least I do. I missed the self-righteous portion though. Do you care to share with me the source of that?

>DON'T dismiss those with very valid criticism about the
>characterizations (hey, the romance made me want to gag.) and the
>story, but sit down and actually CONSIDER that they may have a point.

So, you feel the authors are not paying attention to criticism. Unfortunately, criticism is a personal opinion, so just as I'm sure you're unhappy with mine, we can we unhappy with yours.

Neither you nor I can compell the author to listen. However, I advise that you offer contructive criticism if you're looking to have a voice in the authors work.

I am left with this question: do you have a problem with fanfiction or just Neon Gensis Evangelion fan ficiton? I've reviewed all of your and Rougebat's complaints, and all I've read is complaints having to do with:

1. The evil of self-insertion in fanfiction (rougebat posts 21,56,64)
2. The unoriginality of NXE (rougebat 21)(moonchild post 49, et al)
3. That Neon Genesis Evangelion is raped/ruined by NXE. (roguebat 21)*
4. Neon Exodus Evangelion was written strictly to stroke the ego of the authors and gain attention. (moonchild, various posts) (rougebat, 21,55)
5. The horrible character, DJ Croft.
6. That biblical subtext of NGE is changed.(rougebat, 56,64)

Please note, I'm leaving out all the insults, variants on a theme, etc.

With the exception of the ego charge, every single one of your complains has to do with the nature of the fanficiton genre. These complaints could easily be transfered to a Ranma, Gundam, Bubblegum Crisis, X-files, or Sailor Moon forum.

At this point, I offer you some friendly advice. Yours and Rougebat's criticisms to date have been about the fanfiction elements of Neon Exodus Evangelion. Since I understand that she will continue to read the series to the end, and will still have strong negative feels towards the series, I suggest that you both decide which elements you dislike, why they are ridiculous/evil/annoying, and then post specific, supporting examples.

Just to help, I'll give you one that bugs me when I read it:
"I mean, granted, I -am- the world's most handsome and
sophisticated fourteen-year-old boy, but what good is that to NERV?" - NXE 1:1

I roll my eyes every time I read it. Why, I ask myself, why did he need to say that? It's so corny, so unnecessary. It could have read "What good am I to NERV?".

And thus you can post, and ask questions, and seek explanations/justifications of the authors' work. I've managed to get Gryphon to state that he screwed up in parts of Undocumented Features. I've and other posters have managed to do so because I've asked specific questions.

Try it. You might like it. It is certainly more effective than slinging generalizations.

as always,
Trigger

<* subnote: I"m the daughter, friend, and sister of rape victims and I pray you never undertand how that comparison has offended and disgusted me>

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

>Just to help, I'll give you one that bugs me when I read it:
>"I mean, granted, I -am- the world's most handsome and
>sophisticated fourteen-year-old boy, but what good is that to NERV?" -
>NXE 1:1
>
>I roll my eyes every time I read it. Why, I ask myself, why did he
>need to say that? It's so corny, so unnecessary. It could have read
>"What good am I to NERV?".

Since you made an actual point, I'll bite.

First of all, I think DJ was overwhelming at times in early NXE. I think some of that was from trying to rapidly establish his character in the universe, being the 'new guy' and all, and that meant he got a lot of screen time and sometimes seems to squeeze the existing characters out of frame. And he *is* quite the strong personality...

But what I think a lot of people missed is that a lot of it is bravado. He *is* a very gifted 14 year old - though I do maintain within the realm of possibility based on very real people, albeit uncommon. But he isn't god, and he's had a fairly rushed life - grown up fast and felt a lot of pressure to be mature and worldly. So he fakes it a bit, and sometimes forces it. He has a strong will and uses it to clamp down on other feelings, and comments like that are as much to himself as to others - kind of a mantra I suppose. "I am dealing with this, I am unflappable, I am centered." He tends to get flippant in response to stress, not unlike James Bond - which isn't really a coincidence, Gryph has said he kind of sees DJ as a young James Bond as played by Pierce Brosnan. And, later in the story, you do find out that DJ is special - as are the other children (though not all in the same way of course).

But really, in the end he isn't at all out of scale with the universe he is in.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
See what I'm selling on eBay

>Girlfriend, you need to read your own writing.
>
>You said, and I quote "Of course, if you don't piggyback on the
>original, you WOULDN'T have any fans, would you?"
>
>Which I understood as "Only people who liked NGE would be interested
>in NXE".

No. Only that it would be better as an original series, and it seems as if it used the NAME of fanfiction to get people to read it. It isn't fanfiction, it's some warped hybrid. I actually have no problem with fanfiction. I write it myself, and although I know rouge disagrees with the sentiment, I have read good fanfiction out there.

>
>Now, foolish me. What you actually meant was: "You can't write your
>own stories without having to borrow from other people".

No, I meant that you wouldn't have the fanbase you have today if you hadn't tried to pass it off as fanfiction.

>
>So your problem isn't with using Neon Genesis Evangelion as source
>material. It's with the fact that Eyrie writers write fanfiction.

No, I write fanfiction. It would be hypocritical of me to say that "you can't write fanfiction" given on a certain series. NXE is so far apart form NGE that it shouldn't even be LINKED to it. That is my problem.

>Given that _fan_fiction is based on the idea that you take an existing
>work, I think that Eyrie is stuck using themes and characters from
>said work.

But they didn't. That's my POINT. It's as if they used the NAMES of places, things and characters, and completely ignored any previous characterization. You can write AU fanfics and still have them be IC, but this isn't what NXE IS.

>
>Also, given that fanfiction is the author's personal rewrite of
>the work, then the author can shape that work anyway the author
>chooses. Which means, changing the location, getting rid of
>characters, introducing new ones, and even changing the events that
>occured in the existing work.

Yes, but doing it in a way that SOME spirit of the original is retained, whether it be through the characters, the places or ANYTHING. As I said above, you can even write AU and still have it be IC, as long as you take the time to learn teh characters. If you are going to change the BASIC characterizations as much as you do in NXE, then it is better off not being called fanfiction at all.

>
>If you're going to damn Eyrie for taking these actions, you're also
>damning all the fanfiction out there. Fanficiton is not the original
>work. Its a reinterpretation of the orginal.

Yes, I know. I write fanfiction. I write AUs. And the highest compliment I get is when someone emails me and says "I could SEE that happening with the characters", or "They were very IC, I could see that as being a part of the show." Not, "Wow, you really changed Rei Ayanami. I could hardly recognize her character!"

>
>For a good case study, I suggest you look at "Romeo and Juliet" in its
>various incarnations, including "Romeo must Die".

But they KEPT the characters and characterization. Someone didn't decide that Romeo made a really crappy love interest and change it, now did they?

>Again, I would love to use my argument ad hominem posted earlier to
>note that I had never heard of NGE before reading NXE, but I won't.

GENERALLY, people who have heard of NGE are the ones that come into contact with NXE, because it is classified as fanfiction, therefore FANS would be looking for it.

>
>Again, you are objecting because fanfiction authors took inspiration
>from and existing work and ended up with something that has reminders
>and touches of the original work. The presentation of the original
>and the implicit criticism of the orginal characterizations offends
>you.

No, the fact that they aren't the original characters offends me. They're brand new characters wearing nametags.

>
>While I can respect that, and I suspect most of us here would, your
>complaints still boil down to the fact that Eyrie wrote a fanfiction,
>like _all_ of their fanfictions that featured some characters from a
>primary series and warped them to Eyrie's own ends.

See above arguments. No.

>Which, I think all of us agree with? Well, at least I do. I missed
>the self-righteous portion though. Do you care to share with me the
>source of that?

Well, the fact that my questions were pretty much dismissed until this point was rather irksome...but you are right. It wasn't really self-righteous as "dismissing". So yes, I'll agree with you there.

>So, you feel the authors are not paying attention to criticism.
>Unfortunately, criticism is a personal opinion, so just as I'm sure
>you're unhappy with mine, we can we unhappy with yours.

Of course you can. But it still needs to be taken into some consideration if it's not a flame.

>
>Neither you nor I can compell the author to listen. However, I advise
>that you offer contructive criticism if you're looking to have a voice
>in the authors work.

I did. I explained that I didn't like the pace of the story, and the writing made me feel very uninterested in terms of the characters, because I could not work up any real need to care about them.

>
>
>I am left with this question: do you have a problem with fanfiction or
>just Neon Gensis Evangelion fan ficiton?

Neither, as long as it's good.

>I've reviewed all of your
>and Rougebat's complaints, and all I've read is complaints having to
>do with:

>
>1. The evil of self-insertion in fanfiction (rougebat posts 21,56,64)

It is evil because nobody cares. It's hard to make a person care about a self-insertation because they want to read about the original characters, not about the exploits of god-boy.

>2. The unoriginality of NXE (rougebat 21)(moonchild post 49, et al)

It is unoriginal because by making it a piece of fanfiction, it turns it into another SI.

>3. That Neon Genesis Evangelion is raped/ruined by NXE. (roguebat 21)*

Raped as in destroyed. Not physically and sexually molesting something.

>4. Neon Exodus Evangelion was written strictly to stroke the ego of
>the authors and gain attention. (moonchild, various posts) (rougebat,
>21,55)

Well, add some flaws that are readily noticible in first few chapters, and then we'll see.

>5. The horrible character, DJ Croft.

I have heard he gets better. No-one has said how or why, just that he gets better. The point where I am right now, I really don't care. If you don't care about the character then they ARE a bad character.

>With the exception of the ego charge, every single one of your
>complains has to do with the nature of the fanficiton genre. These
>complaints could easily be transfered to a Ranma, Gundam, Bubblegum
>Crisis, X-files, or Sailor Moon forum.

Yes, just as there are many bad fanfics out there. Are you upset because we aren't crusading over there? The simple truth of the matter is that the writing style is fine, it's easy to read. That's what makes the plot itself so utter bewildering. How can something this bad be written this well?

>
>At this point, I offer you some friendly advice. Yours and Rougebat's
>criticisms to date have been about the fanfiction elements of Neon
>Exodus Evangelion. Since I understand that she will continue to read
>the series to the end, and will still have strong negative feels
>towards the series, I suggest that you both decide which elements you
>dislike, why they are ridiculous/evil/annoying, and then post
>specific, supporting examples.

But, that's not what we want. It's very simple, explain how/why DJ changes. Explain the symbolism. Explain why the series was really needed in the first place. What was the motivation, besides replacing Shinji? I'm just curious. If I'm wrong in my assumptions, prove it. I've already explained the specific reasons I dilike it, now it's up to you to explain why they were there.

ok, now we have a debate...

>>Now, foolish me. What you actually meant was: "You can't write your
>>own stories without having to borrow from other people".
>
>No, I meant that you wouldn't have the fanbase you have today if you
>hadn't tried to pass it off as fanfiction.

I think I'll agree to disagree with you. I'm part of the fanbase that reads Eyrie stuff because it's good writing, not because it invokes and worships anime. I often need to research the anime referenced because my exposure to Japanese anime is limited to sorry US reproductions, the Internet, and the rare chance to see some in the original.

>No, I write fanfiction. It would be hypocritical of me to say that
>"you can't write fanfiction" given on a certain series. NXE is so far
>apart form NGE that it shouldn't even be LINKED to it. That is my
>problem.

>But they didn't. That's my POINT. It's as if they used the NAMES of
>places, things and characters, and completely ignored any previous
>characterization. You can write AU fanfics and still have them be IC,
>but this isn't what NXE IS.

Ok, so one of your problems is that the characters of the NXE are not the characters of NGE.

I think you need to looks at it from the "butterfly" perspective. Somewhere, a butterfly flapped its wings and the world changed.

In NXE, Gendou Ikari brings Shinji to Terminal Dogma too soon. Instead of seeing Rei in the aftermath of her accident, he sees the accident. And is reasonably horrified. He leaves before he finds out what happens to Rei.

So another child is brought in to take Rei's place when the crisis hits. And that child decides (as Shinji did in NGE) to take Rei's place and save her life.

NXE takes place in a soi-distant universe. It begins when Gendou Ikari makes a timing decision. That he considered bringing Shinji in all along was clear from NGE. The timing, as Machivelli will tell you, made all the difference.

So instead of an introverted child interacting with Rei, you have an extroverted child. Instead of Asuka arriving next, Ikari brings another child in before her to balance out the extroverted (and not very obedient) child.

Then, slowly, Rei changes. She falls in love. And that changes everything.

Rei doesn't leave DJ alone in the school yard to be beat up. She _saves_ him. Asuka isn't allowed to be the brat from hell -- her fellow children stand up to her and force her to change her ways or be ostrazied.

Rei is never killed. The clone is never called forth.

The characters develop in ways that NGE would never have let them.

Does that help? Think of NXE as one of the possible fates of NGE.

>Yes, but doing it in a way that SOME spirit of the original is
>retained, whether it be through the characters, the places or
>ANYTHING. As I said above, you can even write AU and still have it be
>IC, as long as you take the time to learn teh characters. If you are
>going to change the BASIC characterizations as much as you do in NXE,
>then it is better off not being called fanfiction at all.

Here, again, we agree to disagree. The "spirit" of an anime is as far as I can tell dependent on the viewer. What is the spirit of Ranma? After all in the zillions of Ranma fanfics no one "spirit" is kept.

Now, between NGE and NXE,the spirit is kept - humanity is fighting for its right to remain human. The characters in one way or another seek redemption from heaven. In NGE this is shown through Shinji who becomes the everyman and makes a choice not to become one with what ever the hell that was.

In NXE the burden is spread around. Jon and Rei struggle with their celestial natures. Asuka reaffirms her love for her friends and her country, and most of all herself. DJ acts as cheerleader and the sacrifical victim to for his friends so that they can carry on the fight. Shinji falls in love, suffers for it, and still has the compassion to comfort Asuka. Ritsuko falls in love and finally sees value in other people. She puts her mother's legacy behind her. Gendou Ikari is redeemed and saved from a fate worse than death.

The main difference, of course, is that the battle between the EVA and the Angels has changed. It's still about Angels trying to rescue lost angels. It's just that the causes of the conflict are different. In NXE is truly is about the battle between Heaven and Hell. Not between man and God.

>>For a good case study, I suggest you look at "Romeo and Juliet" in its
>>various incarnations, including "Romeo must Die".
>
>But they KEPT the characters and characterization. Someone didn't
>decide that Romeo made a really crappy love interest and change it,
>now did they?

I've seen it happen in some productions. Juliet gets a clue and sends him packing. Romeo dies in Mercutio's place. Sometimes, it even fits the personalities of the original characters.

>No, the fact that they aren't the original characters offends me.
>They're brand new characters wearing nametags.

I disagree. I think they are the same characters. With different experiences, and thus different fates.

>I did. I explained that I didn't like the pace of the story, and the
>writing made me feel very uninterested in terms of the characters,
>because I could not work up any real need to care about them.

And truly the authors can do nothing about that. You expected Rei, Asuka, Misato, Shinji, Ritsuko, Kanji, and Gendou to be the same people they were in NGE. If you keep those expectations, then they will never be what you want or would like them to be.

>>1. The evil of self-insertion in fanfiction (rougebat posts 21,56,64)
>
>It is evil because nobody cares. It's hard to make a person care
>about a self-insertation because they want to read about the original
>characters, not about the exploits of god-boy.

Um, I do. That's what attracted me to Undocumented Features. I actually care about the fate of Gryphon, Zoner, and rerob. I've even got a soft spot for q and kevin because they are so interesting.

I guess, what ever floats your boat.

>>2. The unoriginality of NXE (rougebat 21)(moonchild post 49, et al)
>
>It is unoriginal because by making it a piece of fanfiction, it turns
>it into another SI.

Ok, now this I disagree with. DJ Croft is more like Indiana Jones than Gryphon's SI characters. Gryphon deals with this in a story called "Interlude at Shamrock House". I can't see any of Gryphon's other characters making the same decisions that DJ does at critical points such as:
1. Attacking Dirac's Ocean
2. Playing scrable with Misato (Gyrph's characters are far too promiscous for that)
3. Not sleeping with Ritsuko (ditto)
4. Staying behind to get Lucifer
5. Becomeing friends with Gendou Ikari (again, Gryph's SIs keep grudges forever)
6. Asking for help in Math (the SIs are too macho)

That, and none of the other characters in any other fic (ok, maybe HL zoner) would fall deeply in love with Asuka.

>>3. That Neon Genesis Evangelion is raped/ruined by NXE. (roguebat 21)*
>Raped as in destroyed. Not physically and sexually molesting
>something.

How does fan fiction destroy the original work?

>>4. Neon Exodus Evangelion was written strictly to stroke the ego of
>>the authors and gain attention. (moonchild, various posts) (rougebat,
>>21,55)
>Well, add some flaws that are readily noticible in first few chapters,
>and then we'll see.

Um, such as...?

>>5. The horrible character, DJ Croft.
>
>I have heard he gets better. No-one has said how or why, just that he
>gets better. The point where I am right now, I really don't care. If
>you don't care about the character then they ARE a bad character.

Ah. Well, in season 2 DJ (a) stops shooting ridiculous one liners at his fellow children. (b) Does some damn fool things and gets called on them, (c) dies.

This all has the wonderful effect of making him less of the focus for Season 3, and forcing him to do some growing up. It's nice. Instead of DJ Croft the invincible, you get DJ.

Read Season 2. If you don't care about his or his fate by the end of it, then there is nothing I can do.

>Yes, just as there are many bad fanfics out there. Are you upset
>because we aren't crusading over there? The simple truth of the
>matter is that the writing style is fine, it's easy to read. That's
>what makes the plot itself so utter bewildering. How can something
>this bad be written this well?

No, I'm not. I was just point it out, that your crusade seemed to be about stuff that happends anywhere. Now that you've pointed out some of your complaints a little more clearly, I begin to understand why this series bothers you.

I think the problem is expectations. If you accept the timing arguement above, and get through Season 2, then you will start to understand that it's not bad characterization. Its a different point of view.

>It's very simple, explain how/why DJ changes.

See above.

> Explain the symbolism.

ok...

In NXE, the cosmology of the universe is based on the idea that Heaven and Hell are at war. And that in the year 2000, Lucifer, Prince of Darkness, decided to return to Heaven and join its hosts. In response, a coalition of angels and demons killed him and the three other celestials to stop this change in the balance of power. At the moment of Lucifer's death, he explodes it energy and Second Impact occurs.

In the year 2014, when NXE begins, the war between Heaven and Hell has new players - humans. A demon has convinced the UN that Heaven's visits to earth to find Lucifer and the missing celestials are actually the forefront of an alien invasion of earth. In response Seele and Nerv have created EVAs from the bodies of Lucifer and another celestial that they found in Antartica. The demon, who controls Seele, has convinced the Nerv high command that the Angels coming to earth to find Lucifer are actually out to destroy the one force that can stop the invasion - Nerv.

However, a demon can't run things by herself, so she has "corrupted" humans on to her side. The Seele high command clearly know what she is, and what some of her goals are. Gendou Ikari who is being controlled by a demon, has copies the dead sea scrolls, knows where the lance of longinus is being kept, and has the tree of life on his wall as a reminder of the truly biblical struggle.

As well, the presence of Lucifer, Moloch, Rei, and Tabris have brought normal people in close personal contact with the Symphony. The celestial Symphony is an In Nomine concept. All celestial beings can hear and manipulate the symphony (in a simplified version, think of it like the force). The humans around them become more attuned to it. The gift of the Children is that they can all almost hear it.

Thus, you have the children "hearing" the proper names for the Evas. You have Rei's human name close to her celestial one. The children all demonstrate odd properties thate are similiar to the angels. Gendou Ikari talks in riddles that are tied to the War. The Rei clones don't look like her because they're half demon.

And then you through in the technology of X-Com, the existence of men in black, the idea behind the x-files of a massive alien conspiracy. And viola, you have a complex symbolism rich in the standard western theology, with bits of Kabala and Judeo-mysticism. You explain the willingness of society to fund Nerv in it's acknowledged almost destruction by "aliens". You have a counter-conspiracy based on mulder, scully, agent K, and agent J.

Does that help?

>Explain why the series was really needed in the first place.

Um it was a cool idea?

Think about it. What is aliens are angels? What if Lucifer changes sides? What if Mulder was right? The framework of Evangelion was a perfect way to begin to explore these questions. It gave you a structure, the human instrumentality project, and the engima that is Rei Ayanami.

just my two cents,
t.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

>2. Playing scrable with Misato (Gyrph's characters are far too
>promiscous for that)
>3. Not sleeping with Ritsuko (ditto)

Hey! Not this old misconception again... jeez. I know guys in real life who've, er, notched more kills in the last ten years than, say, my UF self has in over 400. Sheesh!

>6. Asking for help in Math (the SIs are too macho)

Macho?! I...

... er.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>>2. Playing scrable with Misato (Gyrph's characters are far too
>>promiscous for that)
>>3. Not sleeping with Ritsuko (ditto)
>
>Hey! Not this old misconception again... jeez. I know guys in
>real life who've, er, notched more kills in the last ten years than,
>say, my UF self has in over 400. Sheesh!

Well, I would *never* refer to it as 'notching kills', but I - the real me - have had more lovers in the past 10 years than Gryphon in all of UF. Actually, seeing has how it has been a while - in less than 10 years. And I had a couple of year+ relationships in there, and that period with my stalker...

And, honestly, compared to a lot of guys I know - I'm a monk.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
See what I'm selling on eBay

>>>2. Playing scrable with Misato (Gyrph's characters are far too
>>>promiscous for that)
>>>3. Not sleeping with Ritsuko (ditto)
>>
>>Hey! Not this old misconception again... jeez. I know guys in
>>real life who've, er, notched more kills in the last ten years than,
>>say, my UF self has in over 400. Sheesh!
>
>Well, I would *never* refer to it as 'notching kills',

No, nor I, myself - but that seems to be the attitude that people who harp on this particular misconception are expecting...

Sardony is hard to do in print.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>>2. Playing scrable with Misato (Gyrph's characters are far too
>>promiscous for that)
>>3. Not sleeping with Ritsuko (ditto)
>
>Hey! Not this old misconception again... jeez. I know guys in
>real life who've, er, notched more kills in the last ten years than,
>say, my UF self has in over 400. Sheesh!

<giggle> I know he is. But he isn't exactly, um, a serial monoganist. DJ as far as I can tell is. Sorry, should have stated that differently...

>>6. Asking for help in Math (the SIs are too macho)
>
>Macho?! I...

<grin> Thought that would get a rise, but seriously, other than asking girls to blow stuff up, when was one of your SIs outthought by a girl? (note, I'm not counting Skuld, Eve, and Vision) DJ admits Amys' intellectual brilliance. When was the last time one of your SIs said that about anyone? I mean, you outdesigned Sylia Stingray...

t.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

><giggle> I know he is. But he isn't exactly, um, a serial monoganist.

Well, no. But that's not the same as promiscuity.

><grin> Thought that would get a rise, but seriously, other than asking
>girls to blow stuff up, when was one of your SIs outthought by a girl?
>(note, I'm not counting Skuld, Eve, and Vision)

(Why not count Skuld?)

There are several female characters in UF who Gryphon ackowledges are better at what they do than he could ever be - one of them hasn't been introduced yet, but Kei certainly has, and it ought to be apparent from their interactions in Future Imperfect that she's the one steering the ship. :)

>When was the last time one of your SIs said
>that about anyone?

In UF, Gryphon has repeatedly stated that Kei knows everything. :)

>I mean, you outdesigned Sylia Stingray...

Well, yeah, but I cheated and used a tech base higher than hers. And anyway, anybody trying to outdo her in a design project is helped by the fact that she's out of her freaking mind. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>Well, no. But that's not the same as promiscuity.

Agreed. Bad choice of words. What I should have said was that the SIs wouldn't have turned Rei and Ritsuko down because of Asuka.

>(Why not count Skuld?)

Advantage: Goddess. When your patron saint is goddess, and the techno-geek, designer, and kick-ass fighter of a goddess, you really can't expect your hero to out wit her.

>There are several female characters in UF who Gryphon
>ackowledges are better at what they do than he could ever be - one of
>them hasn't been introduced yet, but Kei certainly has, and it
>ought to be apparent from their interactions in Future Imperfect that
>she's the one steering the ship. :)

Oh, I don't know about that. According to Utena... ;)

>In UF, Gryphon has repeatedly stated that Kei knows everything.
>:)

That is because he is a wise and intelligent lover/husband.

>Well, yeah, but I cheated and used a tech base higher than hers. And
>anyway, anybody trying to outdo her in a design project is helped by
>the fact that she's out of her freaking mind. :)

Um, yeah I noticed that. Can we say _wierd_, children? When I feel the need, I'll post my questions about that characterization on the HL thread.

Did you notice that moonchild has stopped posting to this skein of the thread?

t.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

>>Well, no. But that's not the same as promiscuity.
>
>Agreed. Bad choice of words. What I should have said was that the
>SIs wouldn't have turned Rei and Ritsuko down because of Asuka.

I'm not so sure about that - but you're correct insofar as that, in that case, it would be less because of an internal conflict and more out of deference to the others involved (Asuka and, in the first case, Jon).

>>(Why not count Skuld?)
>
>Advantage: Goddess. When your patron saint is goddess, and the
>techno-geek, designer, and kick-ass fighter of a goddess, you really
>can't expect your hero to out wit her.

I suppose. (In fact, it's pretty clear from Twilight that the Grave Feminine Conspiracy of Skuld and Kei have outwitted him. :)

>>There are several female characters in UF who Gryphon
>>ackowledges are better at what they do than he could ever be - one of
>>them hasn't been introduced yet, but Kei certainly has, and it
>>ought to be apparent from their interactions in Future Imperfect that
>>she's the one steering the ship. :)
>
>Oh, I don't know about that. According to Utena... ;)

Oh, sure, Gryphon's the captain, but everybody knows the captain doesn't do anything. The navigator is the most important officer on the ship. :)

Utena is young. She'll learn that lesson eventually... :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

LAST EDITED ON Aug-21-01 AT 12:03 PM (EDT)

>Oh, sure, Gryphon's the captain, but everybody knows the
>captain doesn't do anything. The navigator is the most
>important officer on the ship. :)
>
>Utena is young. She'll learn that lesson eventually... :)

If Kei's the XO, then who's the navigator?

t.
Wait, does this mean Chekov is more important than Kirk or Sulu?

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

>>Oh, sure, Gryphon's the captain, but everybody knows the
>>captain doesn't do anything. The navigator is the most
>>important officer on the ship. :)
>
>If Kei's the XO, then who's the navigator?

Kei. Just being the executive officer gets dull without something useful to do. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>ok, now we have a debate...

See, that wasn't so hard. That's really all I wanted to know, and I thank you for taking the time to give me a straight reply. I disagree with you on many points, but now that you have pointed out YOUR reasons for viewing the series the way you do, then it makes arguing moot.

No-one can really sucessfully argue an opinion, so why even bother to try? It's like people telling me that the couple I like from a series I write is wrong. I respect their opinion that they don't like the couple, but at the same time, I NEVER said to like NXE was wrong, rather, I didn't understand why or how someone else could. I gave my veiws on the characters and situations, and expected someone to come back with perhaps "Well, I thought...".

If an answer had been given in the first place (instead of pretending as if it was too much trouble to give one), anything as simple as "well, in the third season DJ does such and such, which made me respect him more as a character." or "the writing style is great and captures my interest", then I would have had to respect that. Not the "You are a troll and a sockpuppet. And you are immature. And I know your stuff sucks without reading it" debate, which was actually getting me frustrated. It served no purpose, and just made YOU guys look petty. (At least I bothered to read part of NXE before storming in here...)

I still say some people around here need to learn what a troll really is, because I'm a piss-poor example of one. Rouge could spot me right off, and this isn't even how I usually post...

Now that this has been settled to pretty much my satistfaction, I suppose I'll be off to "troll" elsewhere. Pretty easy way to get rid of me, I'd say. Perhaps I'll go lurk around my own page, cave, bridge wherever trolls lurk for a little while...

>>ok, now we have a debate...
>
>See, that wasn't so hard. That's really all I wanted to know, and I
>thank you for taking the time to give me a straight reply. I disagree
>with you on many points, but now that you have pointed out YOUR
>reasons for viewing the series the way you do, then it makes arguing
>moot.

>Now that this has been settled to pretty much my satistfaction, I
>suppose I'll be off to "troll" elsewhere. Pretty easy way to get rid
>of me, I'd say. Perhaps I'll go lurk around my own page,
>cave, bridge wherever trolls lurk for a little while...

My pleasure to be of service.

t.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

>No. Only that it would be better as an original series, and it seems
>as if it used the NAME of fanfiction to get people to read it. It
>isn't fanfiction, it's some warped hybrid. I actually have no problem

NXE is a hybrid - it was meant to be. QED.

>No, I meant that you wouldn't have the fanbase you have today if you
>hadn't tried to pass it off as fanfiction.

It is fanfiction. I think your definition is overly narrow. Not as narrow as some - some consider anything that doesn't stick exclusively with the canon universe and characters to be disqualified.

>"you can't write fanfiction" given on a certain series. NXE is so far
>apart form NGE that it shouldn't even be LINKED to it. That is my
>problem.

But your problem is your opinion. You are entitled to one, but don't confuse an opinion with some unwavering truth.

I can't stand Ranma, I think it is unfunny and repetitive. That is my opinion, obviously others feel differently.

>>Given that _fan_fiction is based on the idea that you take an existing
>>work, I think that Eyrie is stuck using themes and characters from
>>said work.
>But they didn't. That's my POINT. It's as if they used the NAMES of

Well, we'll just have to disagree then. Because I say we did, and I don't see your point.

>places, things and characters, and completely ignored any previous
>characterization.

I have to disagee - I say we did not ignore it. And we have heard from a lot of people who agree that we didn't.

>Yes, but doing it in a way that SOME spirit of the original is
>retained, whether it be through the characters, the places or
>ANYTHING. As I said above, you can even write AU and still have it be

And I say we did that. Perhaps my view of the original characters doesn't align with your view. But no matter the reason, I think we nailed the characterizations fairly well. Now, over the course of the series the characters change quite a bit - because the universe they are in diverges from NGE. And people react to their environment - so when the environment is different, and other people are added to the mix, then personalities and interactions also change in response. That's how life works.

>Yes, I know. I write fanfiction. I write AUs. And the highest
>compliment I get is when someone emails me and says "I could SEE that
>happening with the characters",

We did/do receive comments like that for NXE - obviously not everyone agrees with your views.

>that as being a part of the show." Not, "Wow, you really changed Rei
>Ayanami. I could hardly recognize her character!"

Funny, Rei is one of the characters that gets a lot of 'cool, you did Rei great' comments. *shrug* Such is life.

>But they KEPT the characters and characterization. Someone didn't
>decide that Romeo made a really crappy love interest and change it,
>now did they?

I've seen that done, I've also seen it played with where you expect it to be R&J but it ends up not being that way, etc. Obviously if you just really want it to be R&J, or you have some attachment to Romeo, then you might not like that. Well, that's life - you don't have to like everything. I don't.

>No, the fact that they aren't the original characters offends me.
>They're brand new characters wearing nametags.

Again, opinion. I know some others feel the same way, and yet still more disagree with you. And that's all fine with me.

>Well, the fact that my questions were pretty much dismissed until this
>point was rather irksome...but you are right. It wasn't really

Your presentation, frankly, sucked. You came across as a troll, so I do what I normally do with trolls - I ignored you. This post was better, so I replied. If I feel like you're trolling/flaming again, I'll stop.

>Of course you can. But it still needs to be taken into some
>consideration if it's not a flame.

Actually, no, it doesn't *have* to be given any consideration whatsoever. Hell, a lot of big name authors have reputations for being arrogant and brushing off any comments that are less than glowing. It is easier to just ignore any and all criticisms.

But we don't do that. However, you have to realize that you're saying things we've heard before and replied to - again and again. We're sick of it. Don't expect us to engage in the same old discussion just because you want to restart it.

>I did. I explained that I didn't like the pace of the story, and the
>writing made me feel very uninterested in terms of the characters,
>because I could not work up any real need to care about them.

So stop reading - I would if I felt that way about it, and I have done so with other stories.

>>1. The evil of self-insertion in fanfiction (rougebat posts 21,56,64)
>
>It is evil because nobody cares. It's hard to make a person care

Ah - but quite obviously you are wrong. *You* don't care - but many other people do. Don't presume to speak for everyone else.

>about a self-insertation because they want to read about the original
>characters, not about the exploits of god-boy.

Again - some people really like SI. Other people loath it. And most people are probably indifferent. You are trying to apply your opinions as if they were truisms.

>>2. The unoriginality of NXE (rougebat 21)(moonchild post 49, et al)
>It is unoriginal because by making it a piece of fanfiction, it turns
>it into another SI.

It is fanfic - but, dammit, it isn't SI. Hell, the only author who appears, even vaguely, is Truss - and Gryph wrote him into the story well before Truss contributed any material. So it wasn't SI - I guess it was FI - Friend Insert.

>>3. That Neon Genesis Evangelion is raped/ruined by NXE. (roguebat 21)*
>Raped as in destroyed. Not physically and sexually molesting
>something.

Raped != destroyed. I also find the misuse of the term 'rape' offensive, as I have had WAY too many close friends suffer through a rape. I've also had a few lovers who were rape victims, and when someone you love curls into a ball, sobbing uncontrollably from the memories it kind of gets to you.

>>4. Neon Exodus Evangelion was written strictly to stroke the ego of
>>the authors and gain attention. (moonchild, various posts) (rougebat,
>>21,55)
>Well, add some flaws that are readily noticible in first few chapters,
>and then we'll see.

*shrug* Most TV series are kind of rough in season 1. A lot of people talk about anime like Gasaraki with "Oh, watch at least through episode 4 before you decide" etc. Sometimes it takes a while to hit stride. I agree that early NXE is rough in places. I also think that things improved, and really picked up later when the character mix shifted to give more people screen time and there were more interactions.

>>5. The horrible character, DJ Croft.
>I have heard he gets better. No-one has said how or why, just that he

Trying to explain the shifts in characterization is a tedious, dull process. I don't like doing it. If you want to see how he changes - then read on. If it isn't that important, don't. I have no intention of trying to convince you to keep reading something you don't like. I have to wonder why you have read as much as you have.

>gets better. The point where I am right now, I really don't care. If

Then stop.

>you don't care about the character then they ARE a bad character.

Again, opinion. Not everyone feels the same way about him.

And he isn't the only character in the story - I've read stories where I didn't care about all of the characters and still enjoyed tghe story. Some characters help move the story along, other times I didn't care about them until later in the story when more was revealed, etc.

I never expect to care about all the characters in the story right off.

>what makes the plot itself so utter bewildering. How can something
>this bad be written this well?

I like Stephen King and I've read most of his published works at this point (a few recent ones await) - but you know what? Some of his stories are bad. The writing style is as good as the rest, but the story itself is just bad. Yet I'll talk to other fans and they love that story and dislike one I love. That's the magic of perception and opinion. I think it is obvious, even just from comments here, that other people like NXE. I don't expect you to like it just because other people do though.

>But, that's not what we want. It's very simple, explain how/why DJ
>changes. Explain the symbolism. Explain why the series was really
>needed in the first place. What was the motivation, besides replacing
>Shinji? I'm just curious. If I'm wrong in my assumptions, prove it.
>I've already explained the specific reasons I dilike it, now it's up
>to you to explain why they were there.

No thanks. That feels like one of those damn college english assignments I had to do to get my writing degree. I didn't enjoy them then, and I'm not going to do them now just because you don't like the story.

It is just a story. If you don't like it, don't read it. Why do you even care so much if you dislike it so much? I don't understand that. I certainly feel no need to justify my, or my co-authors, decisions to anyone. And doing so holds no interest to me either.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
See what I'm selling on eBay

>Just to help, I'll give you one that bugs me when I read it:
>"I mean, granted, I -am- the world's most handsome and
>sophisticated fourteen-year-old boy, but what good is that to NERV?" -
>NXE 1:1
>
>I roll my eyes every time I read it. Why, I ask myself, why did he
>need to say that? It's so corny, so unnecessary. It could have read
>"What good am I to NERV?".

Aw, c'mon! He was being sarcastic. He really was mystified as to what the hell NERV wanted with him... you didn't think he was serious... ? Sheesh... can't a guy mock himself? :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

LAST EDITED ON Aug-19-01 AT 08:32 PM (EDT)

<grin> Eyrie characters? Mocking themselves?

I'm glad you've kept your sense of humor on this. Still and all...It's an example. Chill. I love Dj. I just roll my eyes when I read it. Megazone did a nice job of coming up with a reasonable explanation. I'm content.

t.

\Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

>DON'T set out to "improve" someone else's series. If you like
>the themes, but dislike the characters or the setup, then take the
>time to work something similar (not the EXACT same thing, but since
>people here insist that NXE is so different, then that wouldn't be a
>problem, would it) into an original work. Don't just delete
>characters because YOU don't see their purpose.

Why not? Seriously, that (it seems to me) is the whole point of fanfiction; expanding on points in the original that the fanfic author feels deserve it, or even rewriting the story fairly extensively if that suits him or her. Is there some sort of consensus among fanfic writers that there is a line over which one should not cross? "This far and no farther"? (Serious question; I'm not really that well acquainted with the fanfic community in general).

>DON'T use the name value of the said series to attract people.
>NXE would have been better off an original series. As it is, the only
>reason most people paid attention to it was because it piggybacked off
>of Evangelion. If you had called it something else, and hadn't used
>the Evas, taken time to CREATE your own characters, instead of
>randomly selecting those that you "liked", then at least this work
>would have the merit of originality.

I don't think that was their intent at all. If you look on the NXE home page, the authors made it clear that NXE was going to be a different kind of beast from NGE.

>DON'T get all self-righteous if some of the fans of the
>original series aren't impressed that you took the main character and
>replaced him with the son of Lara Croft and Fox Mulder and gave him an
>ego the size of a small country. If you all have the right to like
>NXE better than NGE it goes the opposite way too.

Oh, absolutely.

The main problem I have with a lot of the criticism is the personal nastiness directed at the _authors_ (Gryphon in particular). Things like references to "bloated egotism" and the like. See, I believe in upholding certain standards of civility, and unsupported personal aspersions cast on an author, to say the least, fail to impress me. Not only that, but it reminds me rather forcibly of the sort of thing that went on when I was in high school, which is a time I have no desire to relive.

Now, if you have problems with, say, the character of DJ Croft, that's a different matter entirely, and I'll be happy to discuss them with you.

>DON'T dismiss those with very valid criticism about the
>characterizations (hey, the romance made me want to gag.) and the
>story, but sit down and actually CONSIDER that they may have a point.

I'm perfectly willing to consider that. Now, that almost certainly will not change my mind about liking NXE when all is said and done, just as I probably will not change your mind about disliking it (and wouldn't dream of trying).

I think the main problem people are having with rougebat is the way she chose to introduce herself here. First impressions matter, a lot. Instead of saying something like "Hi, I'm rougebat. I dislike NXE, and here's why...", etc., all she did was post a link to some highly derogatory pieces of "fanart". Which may be a statement, in its way, but is not really conducive to starting a constructive discussion. Now personally, I think the people who labeled it "homophobic" were jumping to conclusions, but that's just me.

>GET a sense of humor about your characters and the story. If
>some people want to give you an award for "Worst New Character", don't
>send off a high-brow response, but have a little fun with it.

Well, from everything I've read about the matter, the main problem with that was that the organizer/s of the "Chicken Ball Awards" had asked Gryphon for his permission to use D.J. He declined, at which point they went and did it anyway. I can see how that would annoy anyone.

>There, is that so difficult to comprehend?
>
>That one thread everyone keeps on posting as "go read this, it will
>explain everything!" doesn't explain squat. It's a few fans saying
>"what if some people came here and they didn't like DJ or NXE?", and
>the responses were generally something like "It doesn't matter because
>they don't understand. DJ is cool. And NXE is brilliant." and then
>"Oh, okay, let's talk about something else off-topic."
>
>Yeah, way to cement your arguments there. If you have a specific post
>in the thread that address what I'm talking about, shoot. Other than
>that, it's a waste of my time.

Normally, I don't get into discussions like this because I don't really find them enjoyable, but if you want to list your _specific_ problems with NXE, I'll make an effort to address them. Two caveats, however:

1) I haven't seen NGE, so I won't really be able to compare and contrast the two;
2) I travel a lot with my job and don't have Net access during the week (unless I can get it from the local library where I'm at), so if you post after Sunday PM, you probably won't get a response until next weekend.

Eric J. Heckathorn
ericjh@stargate.net

P.S. I read the first two chapters of your story (I'll get to the rest later). It seems well written enough so far. Romance stories aren't really my cup of tea, but it wasn't actively painful to read, which alone puts it above 95% of the stuff out there. If you want to continue that discussion, E-mail me.

>Why not? Seriously, that (it seems to me) is the whole point of
>fanfiction; expanding on points in the original that the fanfic author
>feels deserve it, or even rewriting the story fairly extensively if
>that suits him or her. Is there some sort of consensus among fanfic
>writers that there is a line over which one should not cross? "This
>far and no farther"? (Serious question; I'm not really that well
>acquainted with the fanfic community in general).

Well, it's just that I don't think NXE bears much resemblence to the original in any way, shape of form, and therefore shouldn't be classified as such..

>I don't think that was their intent at all. If you look on the NXE
>home page, the authors made it clear that NXE was going to be a
>different kind of beast from NGE.

Then they shouldn't have called it NXE, and done more writing to make it truly original.

>The main problem I have with a lot of the criticism is the personal
>nastiness directed at the _authors_ (Gryphon in particular). Things
>like references to "bloated egotism" and the like. See, I believe in
>upholding certain standards of civility, and unsupported personal
>aspersions cast on an author, to say the least, fail to impress me.
>Not only that, but it reminds me rather forcibly of the sort of thing
>that went on when I was in high school, which is a time I have no
>desire to relive.

Alright, I will give you that one. That was very rude of me and I apologize. I still don't appreciate being called a sockpuppet though, and therefore responded in kind. I DO have my own opinions.

>I'm perfectly willing to consider that. Now, that almost certainly
>will not change my mind about liking NXE when all is said and done,
>just as I probably will not change your mind about disliking it (and
>wouldn't dream of trying).

Exactly. I'm not trying to change minds here, I'd just like to know WHY. It's not that hard at all.

> Now
>personally, I think the people who labeled it "homophobic" were
>jumping to conclusions, but that's just me.

She's not, trust me. Neither am I for that matter...

>Well, from everything I've read about the matter, the main problem
>with that was that the organizer/s of the "Chicken Ball Awards" had
>asked Gryphon for his permission to use D.J. He declined, at which
>point they went and did it anyway. I can see how that would annoy
>anyone.

But the fact of the matter is that they were nice enough to ask...and it would have just been better to say "Okay. Fine, use him." That's just me, though.

>1) I haven't seen NGE, so I won't really be able to compare and
>contrast the two;
>2) I travel a lot with my job and don't have Net access during the
>week (unless I can get it from the local library where I'm at), so if
>you post after Sunday PM, you probably won't get a response until next
>weekend.

I'm actually not so much here to debate on the differences between the two of them, just to find out exactly WHY he wrote the series, and did what he did. I don't like it. I give reasons. And no-one seems will to address them simply with examples. I don't need text quotations, but I would like reasons. Just say something like "I like the series because of the way he writes the action scenes" or something. Just something general, and I promise I'll understand. I'll NEVER like the series at all, but at least then I'll have a better grasp on why other people do.

>P.S. I read the first two chapters of your story (I'll get to the rest
>later). It seems well written enough so far. Romance stories aren't
>really my cup of tea, but it wasn't actively painful to read, which
>alone puts it above 95% of the stuff out there. If you want to
>continue that discussion, E-mail me.

Well, I'll take that as a compliment. And if it wasn't meant as one, I could understand why, it wouldn't be your cup of tea, and certainly take no offense. Not everyone who's ever read it has enjoyed it, that's for sure. Thank you for actually taking the time to read the first two parts before commenting, I appreciate it very much.

>>Well, from everything I've read about the matter, the main problem
>>with that was that the organizer/s of the "Chicken Ball Awards" had
>>asked Gryphon for his permission to use D.J. He declined, at which
>>point they went and did it anyway. I can see how that would annoy
>>anyone.
>
>But the fact of the matter is that they were nice enough to ask...and
>it would have just been better to say "Okay. Fine, use him." That's
>just me, though.

Possibly. But I think it's extremely rude to ask someone for permission to do a certain thing, and then, when they say no, go and do it anyway. It would have been better (or at least somewhat less rude) if they had just done it without asking.

>I'm actually not so much here to debate on the differences between the
>two of them, just to find out exactly WHY he wrote the series, and did
>what he did. I don't like it. I give reasons. And no-one seems will
>to address them simply with examples. I don't need text quotations,
>but I would like reasons. Just say something like "I like the series
>because of the way he writes the action scenes" or something. Just
>something general, and I promise I'll understand. I'll NEVER like the
>series at all, but at least then I'll have a better grasp on why other
>people do.

Well, as to why the authors (more than one, remember) wrote the series, and why they did what they did, I won't presume to speak for them.

As to why I like it.... here goes. Understand first that I am not usually given to examining or explaining my tastes (in fiction or anything else) in such a manner, so pardon me if this seems a bit stilted or awkward.

...

Well, this is a little more difficult than I thought.

Not because I'm ambivalent about the series; I genuinely do like it. But the best I can do right now is "It just clicks". There are certain writers that just "click", for me. The Eyrie crew is one example; some examples of published writers are Timothy Zahn, Harry Turtledove, Eric Flint, William H. Keith Jr., S.M. Stirling and David Weber. I'm going to have to give this some thought before I can come up with a better or more useful answer.

>Well, I'll take that as a compliment. And if it wasn't meant as one, I
>could understand why, it wouldn't be your cup of tea, and certainly
>take no offense. Not everyone who's ever read it has enjoyed it,
>that's for sure. Thank you for actually taking the time to read the
>first two parts before commenting, I appreciate it very much.

Oh, it was, trust me. I may not have particularly enjoyed it, but that has everything to do with my tastes, and nothing to do with your writing. Now, that mecha series you mentioned elsewhere... that I would be _extremely_ interested to see.

Eric J. Heckathorn
ericjh@stargate.net

>>Well, from everything I've read about the matter, the main problem
>>with that was that the organizer/s of the "Chicken Ball Awards" had
>>asked Gryphon for his permission to use D.J. He declined, at which
>>point they went and did it anyway. I can see how that would annoy
>>anyone.
>
>But the fact of the matter is that they were nice enough to ask...and
>it would have just been better to say "Okay. Fine, use him." That's
>just me, though.

Personally, if someone asked me if they could use one of my characters in an online "award show" type of thing, I would want to check on it before it was posted to make sure they got the characterization correct. Right now, I wouldn't have time to do so, and so would decline. Gryphon declined, and they used a character with the name DJ Croft trhat was about even further from the 'real' NXE DJ as the NGE characters that you are so irritated at G/R/M et all for altering from Anno's originals.

Again, if it was me, I'd have had trouble restraining myself to something as fundamentally *polite* as the reply that was posted.

>I'm actually not so much here to debate on the differences between the
>two of them, just to find out exactly WHY he wrote the series, and did
>what he did. I don't like it. I give reasons. And no-one seems will
>to address them simply with examples. I don't need text quotations,
>but I would like reasons. Just say something like "I like the series
>because of the way he writes the action scenes" or something. Just
>something general, and I promise I'll understand. I'll NEVER like the
>series at all, but at least then I'll have a better grasp on why other
>people do.

It's easier to explain what I DON'T like about NGE, actually. Anno created a fascinating world, then proceeded to destroy it with a wimp of a protagonist, a moral of 'Yeah, it's okay to feel like nobody gives a rat's ass, because nobody DOES unless it's in their own interests,' and an utterly incomprehensible ending. Now, we haven't seen the ending yet, and I'll agree that season 1 DJ is a bit too much The Anti-Shinji, but after he mellows a bit he's much better, and even before that at least I don't feel like yelling, "JESUS H. UNICRON! GROW A *SPINE* ALREADY!" at the screen. They even manage to re-introduce Shinji in such a manner that I don't uterly despise him. The most important part, however, is that the moral, if you want to call it that, is that it IS posible for poeple to try to do things just because they're right, and when they do, these things might not work, but if they do, they are wonderful.

That's it for me.

-ClassicDrogn

>"JESUS H. UNICRON! GROW A *SPINE* ALREADY!"

<SHATTER>

--
Geoff Depew - Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Malakite of Lightning and Angel of Tech Support Professionals
(They won't give me LARTs, they say that's restricted to Michael.)

>The major problems I have with it is that it is a monumental waste of
>time, and the characters are very unlikeble in their own right.

So why are you reading it?

>that matter. This is the most dull flame war I've ever been involved
>in...why I expected better, I'm sure I don't know.

This was supposed to be a flamewar? The only reason I'm even reading or responding to these posts, at this point, is morbid curiousity.

We already hashed out the pro/anti-NXE dialogue. Look elsewhere in the NXE conference for the thread. I don't think anybody's really interested in discussing the series with a troll.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

>So why are you reading it?

I have my reasons...and all are painful.

>This was supposed to be a flamewar? The only reason I'm even reading
>or responding to these posts, at this point, is morbid curiousity.

Well, then we're alike. Call me when you have something new, or interesting to say.

>Well, then we're alike. Call me when you have something new, or
>interesting to say.

Fine. Just post here when you're interested in something other than a flamewar.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

I actually have a question of you- if you're so confident in your (as moonchild, put it) piggybacked fanfic series, why are you sidestepping all criticism of it? Is this a Gonterman defense, whereby any criticism is irrelevant because the people making it are immediately dismissed as having irrelevant opinions, their thoughts being contrary to yours?

Or are you unable to defend your "series" and "characters", and thus have to rely on feigned indifference because trying to respond or explain your motives would make you look like a self-sucking egomaniac?

I'm not particularly fond of Anno- my exposure to Evangelion is actually through the manga that Sadamoto Yoshiyuki is currently working on- but Anno was a part of the group who came up with the Evangelion story, and it seems a tad...... silly, or perhaps merely futile...... to try and pretend that your fanfic is somehow better than the original.

And to respond to the accusations of homophobia on my part- yes, I'm female, and no, I'm not a homophobe. I actually enjoy homoerotica a great deal, though just to quell your fears that I somehow then got a thrill out of the "DJ playing the skin flute" picture, I'll assure you that I didn't.

>I actually have a question of you- if you're so confident in your (as
>moonchild, put it) piggybacked fanfic series, why are you
>sidestepping all criticism of it?

Didn't read rec.arts.anime.fandom a couple of years ago, then? BTDT. Not interested in repeating myself.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

LAST EDITED ON Aug-18-01 AT 03:50 PM (EDT)

young frau rougebat schreib:

>Or are you unable to defend your "series" and "characters", and thus
>have to rely on feigned indifference because trying to respond or
>explain your motives would make you look like a self-sucking
>egomaniac?

Have you finally managed to quit your addiction to PCP?
Are the rumors about you using slave labor as typists incorrect, or are you HIDING SOMETHING????
And when did you stop beating your wife, Gryph?

Sheesh. Trolls today. Why, back in the heyday of Usenet, a good troll would have waited at least a week before resorting to a weak response like this. They just don't make 'em like they used to.

Mr. Fnord, mocking trolls is like shooting Nazis: Somehow very soul-satisfying.
--
The Jihad to Destroy Barney the Dinosaur
http://www.jihad.net/
"WE'RE STILL HERE, GODDAMMIT!"

Were I a troll, wouldn't I have just said, "YOU SUUUUCK (insert weird sexual reference or swear)" ?

And if it helps at all, I like people who feign lazy indifference because they lack the guts to write a constructive defense even less than I like trolls.

>Were I a troll, wouldn't I have just said, "YOU SUUUUCK (insert weird
>sexual reference or swear)" ?

Perhaps, but that would not have elicted the response from us, the loyal Eyrie fans, that you would have liked.

Now, posting a link to a few obscene doodles proclaiming your hatred for NXE (and DJ Croft in particular), and then deigning to inform us in your high-handed manner how you and your sockpuppet are Good and Right and Pure in kicking over our anthill -- that is what you were looking for, no?

I commend your technique, but you have no staying power. C'est la guerre.

>And if it helps at all, I like people who feign lazy indifference
>because they lack the guts to write a constructive defense even less
>than I like trolls.

I assume that this is a weak little slap aimed at me, or at Gryphon, or possibly both of us. While I can't speak for Gryph in this case, I for one am proud to be included in your little circle of hate.

Okay, quiz time:
(50 points)I say that your artwork is terrible, poorly drawn and without any style. Furthermore, I say that your friend "moon child's" writing is mechanistic at best, poorly characterized and lacks any redeeming merit at all. I don't read/view it, I just know that it's bad. Prove me wrong. Be as constructive as possible in your defense.

Mr. Fnord, and for my next trick...
--
The Jihad to Destroy Barney the Dinosaur
http://www.jihad.net/
"WE'RE STILL HERE, GODDAMMIT!"

>Okay, quiz time:
> (50 points)I say that your artwork is terrible, poorly drawn and
>without any style. Furthermore, I say that your friend "moon child's"
>writing is mechanistic at best, poorly characterized and lacks any
>redeeming merit at all. I don't read/view it, I just know that it's
>bad. Prove me wrong. Be as constructive as possible in your defense.

Well, for one thing I strove to use descriptive language and use the settings as a way to also express the inner emotions of the characters I was writing about. For example, when Jyou reaches the underwater den of the sea-witch, the water is cold, and the whole place a barren wasteland. Once he actually manages to gain entrance into the cave, so to speak, he finds the inside to be beautiful and ethreal. I did this as a way to provide the sea-witch himself with character, as well as to provide ambiguity as to his true nature and identity. Just because a place is beautiful doesn't mean that it is any less dangerous than the desolation that is on the outside, but it tends to put people at ease.

Rather than use the time honored cliches of faerie tales, I chose to adapt this one to the purpose of my story, explaining why merpeople might be able to breathe underwater and so forth. Naturally, they have no scientific merit whatsoever, but they at least provide a background for common questions people might have had in the past.

In Fantasy, it is more of an emotional piece about the lengths someone might go to grasp something they were unaware they might have had (and lost) from the beginning. In that one, I have a tendency to use the setting of the waterfall to provide the main character, Yamato, with a sense of peace and reflection. Here is a character that so desperately wants to live in his own version of the past, never realizing the lost chance he had to make himself be able to live in the present. The simulation inadvertantly gives him insight to this previously unexplored facet and he reacts in a complicated manner, especially since he knows he must return to a reality featuring the person he's simulating.

Of course, I am also working on an original mecha series as well, though it actually had little to do with the design and more of an odd, almost gothic, mystery involving a moving colony and the gigantic worker robots that scurry between the layers of "metallic skin" of the ship, taking care of any problems that may occur. No fighting or anything. In fact, the robots are almost grotesque in appearence. Naturally, humans pilot these robots, but the reactions are chosen tolerance to pain, because the robots work utilizing a direct nueral feedback by a "plug in the back", as you will. Unfortunately the technique is far from perfected, and to be able to work and do their jobs, the pilots must be move and respond through the pain that accompanies each task.

I have a few more original series in the works, but thats the one I've been working on the most as of late.

And I'm sure I'd be boring you if I explained about my take on the Arthurian Legend...

BTW--I HAVE read at least enough of the series to make a judgement, whereas you make an assumption based on nothing at all.

Fifty points, please.

<nice long dissertation redacted in the interests of National Security>

(100 points) I say you're lying. Prove me wrong.

Mr. Fnord, demonstrating a point.
--
The Jihad to Destroy Barney the Dinosaur
http://www.jihad.net/
"WE'RE STILL HERE, GODDAMMIT!"

(200 points)

Prove to me that you're not trying to skip-out on the topic at hand by attacking the people who brought it up.

>Prove to me that you're not trying to skip-out on the topic at hand by
>attacking the people who brought it up.

Trick question. There is no topic at hand.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

That was what I was looking for.

Mr. Fnord, retiring from the battlefield, having provided no Illumination to those who troll, but still being quietly amused by their righteous indignation.
--
The Jihad to Destroy Barney the Dinosaur
http://www.jihad.net/

Mild irritation, yes. Disgust, even. But hardly "righteous indignation". If I really felt insanely passionate about this issue, I would have done more than a few posts on a forum and some nasty scribbles.

PS: I get a big rise out of feigned indifference.

Well, to be honest, I'm not here to promote my own art- however, if you wish, I'll provide a link to a picture I drew of EVA-01 a few months ago.

here

Additionally, I apologize for my rude front... but it did get your attention, didn't it?

>Were I a troll, wouldn't I have just said, "YOU SUUUUCK (insert weird
>sexual reference or swear)" ?
>

Those are only the larval trolls, later stages do actually use a form of logic in their trolling.

>And if it helps at all, I like people who feign lazy indifference
>because they lack the guts to write a constructive defense even less
>than I like trolls.

I'll bite, why must they write a defense? I must have missed the indictment somehow, since a defense is only necessary at a trial. Otherwise, any and all people are perfectly within their rights to simply say 'I felt like it, you know where the door is' and move on to other persuits.

Oh, and before you use the 'criticism' defense, there is a distinction that needs to be made. Constructive criticism is offered to improve a work, and is to be welcomed by the open minded. However, destructive criticism <my term> simply exists to invalidate a work and hope for it's existence to cease. This is pointless and juvenile, and typically gets the response it deserves, anger or indifference.

-={(Astynax)}=-
"...now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time."

>I'll bite, why must they write a defense? I must have missed the
>indictment somehow, since a defense is only necessary at a trial.
>Otherwise, any and all people are perfectly within their rights to
>simply say 'I felt like it, you know where the door is' and move on to
>other persuits.
Defenses are needed for several things. One is personal validation. Heck, another is supporting a thesis: to get an advanced degree, you often need to provide a "thesis defense". Writing a defense is no problem to me; backing up one's opinion is a good way of showing that one is not a dufus.

>Oh, and before you use the 'criticism' defense, there is a distinction
>that needs to be made. Constructive criticism is offered to improve a
>work, and is to be welcomed by the open minded. However, destructive
>criticism <my term> simply exists to invalidate a work and hope for
>it's existence to cease. This is pointless and juvenile, and typically
>gets the response it deserves, anger or indifference.

Even destructive criticism has a purpose, or Roger Ebert would be out of a job: it tries to convince somebody not to waste their time. If a piece of work stinks, there should be a lot of destructive criticism. Otherwise, we might have all lined up to see "Battlefield Earth"...

There is a lot of criticism of NXE, much of it circling around DJ Croft. That's not a big deal to me. NXE is showing itself to be polarizing fanfic. If it was the best thing since sliced bread, it wouldn't get these attacks. If it was Battlefield Earth, there would be no supporters. But there are those who love it, and those who hate it.

That's why I haven't responded to particular points in the actual criticism; they're certainly valid opinions, though not my opinions. Not a big deal.

If the first post to this thread were the "Why I hate DJ/NXE" post, that would be one thing. I've got no problem with the criticism. But the drawings were nothing but a troll.

--rR

>Even destructive criticism has a purpose, or Roger Ebert would be out
>of a job: it tries to convince somebody not to waste their time. If a
>piece of work stinks, there should be a lot of destructive
>criticism.

Heh, just heard about a report somewhere about how Ebert and many other movie critics are all in a tizzy over a recent poll that says ~85% of all movie goers pay no attentions to what critics say. I usually read reviews after seeing a movie to either a) reference my opinions against someone else's, and b) for a hearty "What movie did THEY watch?!?" chuckle.

>Otherwise, we might have all lined up to see "Battlefield Earth"...

Not bloody likely. I'm allergic to L. Ron Hubbard. :)

------------------------
"saaaausaaaage... "
------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

>>Oh, and before you use the 'criticism' defense, there is a distinction
>>that needs to be made. Constructive criticism is offered to improve a
>>work, and is to be welcomed by the open minded. However, destructive
>>criticism <my term> simply exists to invalidate a work and hope for
>>it's existence to cease. This is pointless and juvenile, and typically
>>gets the response it deserves, anger or indifference.
>
>Even destructive criticism has a purpose, or Roger Ebert would be out
>of a job: it tries to convince somebody not to waste their time. If a
>piece of work stinks, there should be a lot of destructive
>criticism. Otherwise, we might have all lined up to see "Battlefield
>Earth"...
>

Point, but I submit this is the wrong forum for such items. After all, it's counter productive to say 'don't <read|watch|listen to> that' to people who already have, and who've already said they enjoyed it. Ebert wouldn't wander into a Battlefield Earth fanclub <if such a thing existed> to deliver his review, for example.

-={(Astynax)}=-
"Darkness beyond Twilight"

>>Even destructive criticism has a purpose, or Roger Ebert would be out
>>of a job: it tries to convince somebody not to waste their time. If a
>>piece of work stinks, there should be a lot of destructive
>>criticism. Otherwise, we might have all lined up to see "Battlefield
>>Earth"...
>>
>
>Point, but I submit this is the wrong forum for such items. After all,
>it's counter productive to say 'don't <read|watch|listen to> that' to
>people who already have, and who've already said they enjoyed it.
>Ebert wouldn't wander into a Battlefield Earth fanclub <if such a
>thing existed> to deliver his review, for example.

Good call. However, note that Battlefield Earth is a particularly pathological case, and that has nothing to do with the quality of the film.

I'm just imagining Roger Ebert walking into the local Church of Scientology to pan the movie...

--rR

>Good call. However, note that Battlefield Earth is a
>particularly pathological case, and that has nothing to do with the
>quality of the film.
>
>I'm just imagining Roger Ebert walking into the local Church of
>Scientology to pan the movie...

I'd pay good money to see that.

------------------------
"saaaausaaaage... "
------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

>Mr. Fnord, mocking trolls is like shooting Nazis: Somehow very

Well, since Fnord here mentioned Nazis, I'm going to take this as a graceful exit. I'm still going to be reading this; I've just no interest in further posting, when other people are doing a better job than I would, and have even responded to specific points I considered responding to.

I will say this, though: if you'd read the "NXE hostility" thread, you'd have seen that most of us who are fans (to whatever degree) of NXE are more than willing to discuss it intelligently... but there's been nothing new brought to the table by rougebat and moon child, and I don't feel like restating what others have said elsewhere, or even my comments on DJ (and they were not pro-DJ) to which Zoner responded. (In a nutshell, I listed some specific points that pointed out what I saw as Mary Sue-ishness on the part of DJ, and Zoner pointed out several things in the series text that I hadn't considered, which weakened my case, and I conceded that DJ wasn't a Mary Sue, although he does have some Mary Sue-like qualities.)

In other words, I'm mostly just vaguely amused by the trollish flailing and the aplomb and dexterity which has been demonstrated by the multiple, generally pro-NXE people on this board.

Oh, and one other thing: moon child, I did look at the link you posted, but shounen-ai scores very low on my interest meter. If I do read it, I *will* comment on it, and if I do, I'll do my level best to be constructive about it.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

>>Mr. Fnord, mocking trolls is like shooting Nazis: Somehow very
>
>Well, since Fnord here mentioned Nazis, I'm going to take this as a
>graceful exit.

Pleased to have provided a drop point for you, sir. Hope you enjoyed your stay, and please tip the hatcheck girl on your way home.

Mr. Fnord, helping posters exit stage right since.. today. Um.
--
The Jihad to Destroy Barney the Dinosaur
http://www.jihad.net/
"WE'RE STILL HERE, GODDAMMIT!"

>that matter. This is the most dull flame war I've ever been involved
>in...why I expected better, I'm sure I don't know.

That might be becouse we (or at least me) DON'T WANT A FUCKING FLAMEWAR!!!

Pangaro, I'm tempted to use my power as a member of the NBS but I won't
Member of the Narn Bat Squad

>>
>>Funny though, with all your respect and worship for NGE and your
>>apparent hatred of "fags", you seemed to have no problem depicting
>>your beloved Shinji as one.
>
>Ironic that you would use that cheap argument as a rebuttal rather
>than actually respond to any of the content in the post. It's as if
>you're attempting to sidestep any of the many valid points rougebat
>brought up and replace them with an off-base accusation.

I had no reason to attack Roguebat's opinion of NXE. I like it, she doesn't. I was just pointing out some hypocricy.

>The mere act of showing DJ giving Shinji a blowjob doesn't even mean
>that she is homophobic, but rather is her way of showing that DJ is
>inferior to Shinji to the point where he had to give him sexual favors
>for his place in the show. It is a way of demeaning DJ without even
>going into what sexuality he may have. Blowjobs are blowjobs. Shinji
>would feel pleasure regardless of the gender giving them, and the
>issue in the picture is a power play.

NO, I figured that she was homophobic because her hatred for DJ is summed up in one word: "Fag!" If gay people didn't bug you, would you use that word as an insult?

I could read between the lines in the "power play" business. I was just pointing out that it could be seen in a different way. And if you think that the cartoon doesn't imply something about Shinji's sexuality, let me know of a straight man who would accept such "service" from another man.

>
>Plus, it's hilarious.
>
We can disagree in our tastes in fiction, and in comedy.

>If you can’t understand that and instead must resort to the endless
>"you are a mean, nasty homophobe" argument, then you are only worth of
>the pap that is NXE. I’m not a bit surprised that you would enjoy it,
>considering that you seem unable to comprehend any of the more subtle
>points in NGE.

This wasn't a "mean, nasty homophobe" argument. I had my say on that with the Knights of the STRAIGHT and Narrow Path. This was a "Gee, you depicted your hero as the thing you hate--is the pilot light on in your brain?" argument.

--rR

>I could read between the lines in the "power play" business. I was
>just pointing out that it could be seen in a different way. And if
>you think that the cartoon doesn't imply something about
>Shinji's sexuality, let me know of a straight man who would accept
>such "service" from another man.

Well, not to be pedantic...

If you've read Gay New York, in the blue collar classes of New York during the 1920s, "straight" men could and did receive blow jobs from other men. Now, the man who was performing the blow job or played bottom, was considered a "queen" or a "punk" or a "pansy" and his gender was female, not male.

So if we use that spin on it, Rougebat was saying that DJ's position to Shinji's is not inferior because he's a man giving a blow job to a man, but because DJ takes on a femine and inferior gender while Shinji retains his masculinity and superior position.

I'm sure you've read the Savage Love letters where a straight man asks if he's still straight if he has been "serviced" by a gay man. And then Dan Savage asks the really intelligent question "If you're having sex with some one who is the same biological sex as you, aren't you having gay sex? Aren't you being gay in that moment?"

<sigh> Rougebat wants it the 1920s way. Shinji, by not performing a subbordinate femine service, is male. DJ by performing is female, inferior, and someone to disparage. The fact that both are male doesn't mean it's gay sex.

As a woman, I'm peeved that she's claiming her art is not homophobic. After all homophobia is based in the idea that it is unnatural for a man to take on a non-masculine gender. And the tone and focus of the art is clearly to degrade DJ. Now if it had been a loving interaction...

But, no it's an issue using gay sex to "make your way on your back".

And that pissed me off the most. I'm a woman, and using sex to get ahead is a sin associated most often with women. Didn't we lose all this amazingly stupid anti-woman prejudice by women? Or is it still 1928?

I'm glad I don't have problems like this with my gender. Or anyone elses.

t.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

>This was a "Gee,
>you depicted your hero as the thing you hate--is the pilot light on in
>your brain?" argument.

IHNJ, IJLS "is the pilot light on in your brain?"

Thanks, ReRob.

--G.
day made
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>Just to calm you, I'll explain why I decided to waste a few minutes of
>my life drawing derogatory pictures of the worst fanfic character
>ever....

Sounds more like you were waiting for somebody to be outraged with baited breath than anything else. At least you've proven you have the ability to write coherently.

>NEE then goes on to trample
>all the cultural references and canon characters of NGE into the dust
>with glee, destroying its biblical references, and collapsing into
>itself in a fantastic display of the author's own bloated, desperate
>egoism.

Despite the fact that DJ is not the author, which has been stated multiple times? Considering that the story isn't written by a single person, it's certainly convenient that one character represents the ego of multiple others. And if you've not seen any biblical references within NXE, I suspect you've not read beyond the first three episodes, meaning that you're basing an opinion on partial information.

>Even the self-pitying xenophobia of David Gonterman's stories
>pales in comparison to the slick, elegant sexism and self-inflation
>created by "DJ Croft" as he sculpts all of the canon aspects of NGE to
>suit his own security blanket fanfic and forget that he's really as
>dull and miserable as every normal human being.

Really? It seems that the only one here who's dull and miserable is you, to the point where you feel the need to spend time actively deriding something rather than doing something constructive.

>Were DJ Croft an _original_ character in an _original_ series, I
>wouldn't give a fig about him. But he insisted on raping one of the
>most fascinating anime/manga in existance to-date with his
>self-sucking reinterpretation.

Then don't read it. If the series offends your delicate sensibilities so much, there are plenty of other things to read and to do with your life. NXE is not intended to be NGE. It says as much up front.

For all you're reading into the portrayal of DJ, you're saying a lot more about yourself. The fact that you're immature, petty, obsessive, and have nothing more constructive to do with your time than electronically throwing rocks, such as it were. You've possibly offended a few people, universally lowered the opinions others hold of you, and haven't really accomplished anything besides labeling yourself as a troll.

Sure, some of us were angered. Most of us just were disgusted with you. You haven't at all contested our views on the series. If you're inclined to be sophomoric and offensive, go elsewhere. We've got better things to do with our time.
-Eliot "Remind me to have a talk with Fan about feeding the choads" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendence Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.
Thoughts of the moment, and such

>Sounds more like you were waiting for somebody to be outraged with
>baited breath than anything else. At least you've proven you have the
>ability to write coherently.

It matters little whether or not one can write coherently. NXE is a perfect example of that, but rather that the point must come through upon occasion. Again, something rougebat managed to do with much clarity.

>Despite the fact that DJ is not the author, which has been stated
>multiple times?

Okay, disregarding that. He is still one of the most obnoxious original characters I have ever come across. Every single bit of character development in his case is done with all the amazing grace and dexerity of a camel dancing the Nutcracker Suite. At no time in the series did I feel anything akin to pity for him. I didn't even like him very much because he was too powerful for my taste. The boy lives and breathes like a self-insertation, so is it any wonder someone could mistake him as such?

Any hardships he goes through are so overdone as to be sublimely ridiculous. None of the authors have any grace when it comes to angst, which is a seasoning best used lightly. Rather than feeling emotionally bonded towards him, I lost myself in the throes of pure laughter. The mere fact that he is the scion of Fox Mulder and Lara Croft is already beyond belief. And it just gets worse from there on.

>Considering that the story isn't written by a single
>person, it's certainly convenient that one character represents the
>ego of multiple others.

Is that why his ego is so large? I suppose being written by several others and having their egos written in would result in the devestating inflation that
I read.

> And if you've not seen any biblical
>references within NXE, I suspect you've not read beyond
>the first three episodes, meaning that you're basing an opinion on
>partial information.

I am in the middle of reading this series, and I must say that I have not picked up any symbolism as of yet. I like to think, as a writer in my own right, I can not only indentify symbolism but utilize it in my own works with a steady hand to some degree. However, three parts are perfectly ample to base a review upon, just someone who writes reviews for television will base their review upon the pilot as opposed to the entire series. If you cannot manage to grab your reader within three parts, especially when it concerns something like fanfiction, then it is best off being unwritten.

NXE is like a large sloth. Slowly it oozes along the path thought out for it, but the pathway taken there is so deviod of suspense or characterization it's much like watching my shower mildew.

>Really? It seems that the only one here who's dull and miserable is
>you, to the point where you feel the need to spend time actively
>deriding something rather than doing something constructive.

Ah, but you see, making a gross generalization about something you know nothing about is a no-no. You have nothing to base this unfound accusation on, except for four obviously hasty sketches, so perhaps you should refrain from making insulting inferences.

Perhaps you would like to turn the tables on me, and accuse me of having nothing better to do with my time than post on this forum. And yet, you people do this regularly... Just for the record, I DO have better things to do, but this argument caught me and looks to be rather interesting.

>Then don't read it. If the series offends your delicate sensibilities
>so much, there are plenty of other things to read and to do with your
>life. NXE is not intended to be NGE. It
>says as much up front.

Then why even base it partially in the NGE universe? Certainly the characters' personalities are so off-base that they might as well be original characters. Basing it upon NGE means that people ARE going to compare it to the original, whether you approve or not. If you cannot handle the nature of these comparisions then I urge you to take a deep breath and remind yourself that it is only something ripped off an amazing anime. Despite the fact that you may think it is better than the original, it is still only a bastardization. Sometimes fanfiction can be good, or thought-provoking. NXE is neither, it is a pure power play that makes fans of the original sick to their stomach.

>
>For all you're reading into the portrayal of DJ, you're saying a lot
>more about yourself. The fact that you're immature, petty, obsessive,
>and have nothing more constructive to do with your time than
>electronically throwing rocks, such as it were. You've possibly
>offended a few people, universally lowered the opinions others hold of
>you, and haven't really accomplished anything besides labeling
>yourself as a troll.

Not everyone who views DJ as such is the same way. Unlike the authors, critics are free to look at the character from a logical standpoint and say what personality traits they dislike about them. The mere fact that you would attempt to basically say "Hah, hah! Everything you said about DJ...uh, well, you're like that! You're like what you said! And, uh, you're a troll." makes you look moronic beyond measure and does nothing to bolster my already dim view of the series.

>
>Sure, some of us were angered. Most of us just were disgusted with
>you. You haven't at all contested our views on the series. If you're
>inclined to be sophomoric and offensive, go elsewhere. We've got
>better things to do with our time.

I don't think so. Rougebat explained exactly why she disliked the series, and all I have seen given back are accusations of being "immature, petty, and obsessive" simply because she didn't like this series in particular. You have not said why you like the series, just made personal attacks in her general direction. A troll would not be able to come up with such a logical argument as to her reasons for not falling down and worship DJ and his associates. Then again, I assume she's had a bit of practice when it comes to rebuttal. You, on the other hand, obviously cannot even respond to her valid points concerning NXE.

>I don't think so. Rougebat explained exactly why she disliked the
>series, and all I have seen given back are accusations of being
>"immature, petty, and obsessive" simply because she didn't like this
>series in particular. You have not said why you like the series, just
>made personal attacks in her general direction. A troll would not be
>able to come up with such a logical argument as to her reasons for not
>falling down and worship DJ and his associates. Then again, I assume
>she's had a bit of practice when it comes to rebuttal. You, on the
>other hand, obviously cannot even respond to her valid points
>concerning NXE.

It took Rougebat 2 days to explain herself. This all started with a blind link to some pictures under the pretext of being fanart. Only once somebody got upset about the issue did Rougebat explain anything.

As for replying to her points about NXE, why bother. She doesn't like it, I do, let the world continue on. There isn't anything here to get into a debate about.

--------------------------------------
Whoa! What IS it?!

>It took Rougebat 2 days to explain herself. This all started with a
>blind link to some pictures under the pretext of being fanart. Only
>once somebody got upset about the issue did Rougebat explain anything.

Well, I'd say it was pretty obvious from her post that she didn't like the series. She wasn't under obligation to explain why, but she came back and she did. Look at it that way.

They only reason I'm still here is because I clicked on that damn "notify" button by accident...

>
>As for replying to her points about NXE, why bother. She doesn't like
>it, I do, let the world continue on. There isn't anything here to get
>into a debate about.

Then why do some people feel that I'm talking to them when they weren't the one who posted the original post I replied to. You know, you have a right not to want to debate it, but when someone posts a point by point reply basically stating "Hah hah! You think DJ sucks, but it is you who is doing the sucking! You have no life...and, uh, you don't like the series! I won't respond to any of the points you brought up, but rather make broad sweeping generalizations about your personal life! Because you suck! Hah hah!" I'm going to point out that they are dodging the issue.

Hey, you like it. I don't. Big deal. It doesn't matter either way, but I was hoping for a more intelligent discussion from the previous poster, that's all.

>Then why do some people feel that I'm talking to them when they
>weren't the one who posted the original post I replied to. You know,
>you have a right not to want to debate it, but when someone posts a
>point by point reply basically stating "Hah hah! You think DJ sucks,
>but it is you who is doing the sucking! You have no life...and, uh,
>you don't like the series! I won't respond to any of the points you
>brought up, but rather make broad sweeping generalizations about your
>personal life! Because you suck! Hah hah!" I'm going to point out
>that they are dodging the issue.
>
>Hey, you like it. I don't. Big deal. It doesn't matter either way,
>but I was hoping for a more intelligent discussion from the previous
>poster, that's all.

Your terminology seemed pretty broad to me, so as a member of the community that hadn't replied to the points Rougebat made, I replied

--------------------------------------
Whoa! What IS it?!

>Hey, you like it. I don't. Big deal. It doesn't matter either way,
>but I was hoping for a more intelligent discussion from the previous
>poster, that's all.

http://www.eyrie-productions.com/Forum-docs/DCForumID5/1.html

We already did all this; in fact, IIRC, the whole pro/anti-NXE dance was the first NXE topic ever on this forum. So go read that, and THEN come back here and discuss it with us. Otherwise, it's bludgeoning a deceased equine.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

> Otherwise, it's bludgeoning a deceased equine.

but we're getting such a good tone out of it.

(psst.. Memo to Zoner. Add Killfile support)
--
jer@gweep.net
Ceci n'est pas une .signature

I don't want to be seen as an overly idealistic fool, but can't we just get along?

And to be honest, I don't think that hanging around a forum that is so opposed to your views is doing any good. I mean... it's kinda pointless to be airing views like these on a forum full of NXE fans. Not that your views aren't valid, but opinions are well... everyone has them and not everyone wants to see them.

I think this is all gonna fall on deaf ears/blind eyes but hey, I am an overly idealistic fool sometimes.

I just feel that civility is an important part of things, and just hating something doesn't mean you have to go up to the people who like it, and preach to them about how bad it is, it's just gonna be ignored/brushed off/responded to curtly/worse. So why waste your time and ours?

I don't know if I'm just weird, or maybe my cultural background allows me to remain silent on people/things I dislike, at most civil, but I just don't see the point in trolling.

That's just my two cents/credits/yen/cowrie shells.

Lore:
artist, writer, hopeless online comic fangirl.

"I'm not the Messiah. I don't do miracles."

>I just feel that civility is an important part of things, and just
>hating something doesn't mean you have to go up to the people who like
>it, and preach to them about how bad it is, it's just gonna be
>ignored/brushed off/responded to curtly/worse. So why waste your time
>and ours?

No preaching, I just wanted to explain why I didn't enjoy the series. It is called "feedback". Feedback isn't always positive, and in rougebat's case, more along the line of a baseball bat to the head saying "I don't like this". Can't deal with it? Wear protective headgear.

There will always be people that don't like what you write. But when they bring up the reasons WHY they don't like it, THAT'S the time to inspect the cause. I get flames every day, but when someone who doesn't like my website, or something, takes the time to tell me why (POPUPS! argh.) then I will respond in a timely manner explaining the need for what I do. ("They'll be gone soon") See, input and feedback. People keep on saying the same things, and the ONLY argument people here seem to be able to coem up with is a hearty "Um, DJ isn't LIKE that...he's, uh, cool and stuff. And you're not."

>
>I don't know if I'm just weird, or maybe my cultural background allows
>me to remain silent on people/things I dislike, at most civil, but I
>just don't see the point in trolling.

I suppose I don't truly comprehend why having a discussion that isn't going the way you want it is "trolling". Because I don't agree with most of the people's views on the fiction posted, and I want to give feedback, this is considered trolling?

I read that whole thread that dealt with this issue previously (well, all the ones that didn't go veering off into another topic completely) and I must say that it was pretty pointless ("Why do people join messageboards if they don't have suck-up praise anything good to say?" Perhaps because they want to express why they did or didn't like something in a certain manner.) I think the mere fact that rouge and I are still here is indicative of a willingness to talk things out logically.

LAST EDITED ON Aug-17-01 AT 04:30 PM (EDT)

>Oh my! What indifference is this, again? \^n_n^/
>
>Just to calm you, I'll explain why I decided to waste a few minutes of
>my life drawing derogatory pictures of the worst fanfic character
>ever....

In other words, you deliberately trolled, waiting for some hothead to respond in anger -- which none of us save Fanatic did -- and then went on to rant about NXE.

In other words, you're immature, insecure, and a troll. Had you been anything else, you could have used your obviously well-developed writing skills to write a point-by-point dissection of NXE, and what you feel is wrong with the character of DJ Croft. Instead, you did... this.

NGE is great for what it is. It's one of the best series I've ever seen, for all that the ending is nigh-incomprehensible. (I know what happened, but it's almost impossible to pull that from the context of the show on a single viewing.) And while Shinji is a very real and believable character, he isn't a hero; he's just a boy who learned enough in a few months to know that the human race deserved another chance, no matter what SEELE and even his father believed and wanted.

As for your evaluation of DJ, it's specious, superficial, and ridiculously biased. DJ is certainly in scale with a universe that can produce Asuka Sorhyu-Langley, and one that includes angels and demons. (Oh, and if you'd actually bothered to read more than the first episode or two, you'd have discovered that NXE includes just as much Christian mythology as NGE.)

So you're a raving NGE fanboy who can't stand anyone daring to stain Anno's work. Then do yourself (and us, incidentally) a favor and don't read NXE. And when I start posting it, don't bother reading Evangelion Densetsu. You might risk liking it. </shameless plug>

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

>In other words, you deliberately trolled, waiting for some hothead to
>respond in anger -- which none of us save Fanatic did -- and then went
>on to rant about NXE.

No, I actually posted, forgot I'd posted, then came back a few days later and realized I may as well explaim my motivations.

>In other words, you're immature, insecure, and a troll.

And.... you know all this about me because? Were I a troll, I would have responded to your critiques by flinging insults like "immature" and "insecure" at you. You'll notice I've said nothing about the people on this board, merely about a fan-character character who, last I checked, doesn't exist in real life.

Had you been
>anything else, you could have used your obviously well-developed
>writing skills to write a point-by-point dissection of NXE, and what
>you feel is wrong with the character of DJ Croft. Instead, you did...
>this.

Why write a point-by-point dissection of a fanfic that's basically a rehash of an original series? And in case you didn't notice in my above post, I did state what I felt was glaringly wrong with the character of DJ- did you mistake my critique for a childish insult, or are you merely incapable of accepting another person's opinions?

>NGE is great for what it is. It's one of the best series I've ever
>seen, for all that the ending is nigh-incomprehensible. (I know what
>happened, but it's almost impossible to pull that from the context of
>the show on a single viewing.) And while Shinji is a very real and
>believable character, he isn't a hero; he's just a boy who learned
>enough in a few months to know that the human race deserved another
>chance, no matter what SEELE and even his father believed and wanted.

With the countless "giant robo" series out there, does it seem wrong that one of them could have a protagonist who is more sympathetic than heroic? Where Shinji a character like DJ, I wouldn't enjoy Evangelion the way I do.

>As for your evaluation of DJ, it's specious, superficial, and
>ridiculously biased. DJ is certainly in scale with a universe that
>can produce Asuka Sorhyu-Langley, and one that includes angels and
>demons. (Oh, and if you'd actually bothered to read more than the
>first episode or two, you'd have discovered that NXE includes just as
>much Christian mythology as NGE.)

Prove me wrong. Everything I've read about DJ seems perfectly on-par with how I described him- arrogant, shallow, and an extension of a writer's ego into a universe that he/they did not create. And as moonchild up there (hey, Etern) said, the Christian mythology in NEE seems to be almost totally nonpresent. Even the title fails to make sense, considering the context in which the original series was named.

>So you're a raving NGE fanboy who can't stand anyone daring to stain
>Anno's work. Then do yourself (and us, incidentally) a favor and
>don't read NXE. And when I start posting it, don't bother reading
>Evangelion Densetsu. You might risk liking it.
></shameless plug>

Please, answer me this. It's very important if I'm to take you for anything more than an oversensitive NEE fanboy- why do you insist on trying to defend yourself by defaming me? Last I checked I was female, and hardly a raving Evangelion fan. I like the series a lot, yes, but I'm hardly obsessed. And don't worry.... I won't read your fanfic.

>>In other words, you're immature, insecure, and a troll.
>
>And.... you know all this about me because? Were I a troll, I would
>have responded to your critiques by flinging insults like "immature"
>and "insecure" at you. You'll notice I've said nothing about the
>people on this board, merely about a fan-character character who, last
>I checked, doesn't exist in real life.

I am going by your actions. You post what is, in no uncertain terms, a flame, and when we don't act burned, disappear for a couple of days until someone responds with the appropriate level of vitriol, and then attack <em>us</em> in specific. You and your sock puppet "moon child" (whom I'm still awaiting conclusive proof is, in fact, someone else) have done nothing but insult the people on this board.

>Why write a point-by-point dissection of a fanfic that's basically a
>rehash of an original series?

Clearly you haven't read the series, then. It is most definitely not a rehash of NGE -- the character arcs are fundamentally different, and the underlying motivation of the series villains as something altogether different. NXE is only superficially similar to NGE -- under the surface, and in every way in the third season, they're completely different.

> And in case you didn't notice in my
>above post, I did state what I felt was glaringly wrong with the
>character of DJ- did you mistake my critique for a childish insult, or
>are you merely incapable of accepting another person's opinions?

If there was something specific one could reply to, I might have done that.

>With the countless "giant robo" series out there, does it seem wrong
>that one of them could have a protagonist who is more sympathetic than
>heroic? Where Shinji a character like DJ, I wouldn't enjoy Evangelion
>the way I do.

Except that Shinji wasn't all that effective as a sympathetic character.

NGE is an excellent series that isn't about giant robots at all, which is vaguely annoying since its mecha have some of the niftiest designs ever. It's about Hideaki Anno airing his dirty laundry and dealing with his inner demons for 26 episodes. He does bring in a lot of philosophy and psychology, which is what kept me interested.

> And as
>moonchild up there (hey, Etern) said, the Christian mythology in NEE
>seems to be almost totally nonpresent. Even the title fails to make
>sense, considering the context in which the original series was named.

The Japanese title means "New Era Evangelion"; the "Neon Genesis" thing isn't really part of Anno's original idea, although it works as well if you know the etymology of all three words. NXE's title means something totally different.

And your denial of Judeo-Christian mythology in NXE just demonstrates that you haven't the faintest clue what you're talking about.

>Please, answer me this. It's very important if I'm to take you for
>anything more than an oversensitive NEE fanboy- why do you insist on
>trying to defend yourself by defaming me?

Defaming you? I'm just calling it like I see it. And if you'd bothered reading the original thread where we discussed all of this, you'd see I hardly qualify as an NXE fanboy -- I enjoy the series, to be sure, but I have my reservations. In any event, until you read that, I have no further interest in continuing this discussion.

Oh, and here's the link, so you'll have no excuse for not reading it.

http://www.eyrie-productions.com/Forum-docs/DCForumID5/1.html

>Last I checked I was
>female, and hardly a raving Evangelion fan. I like the series a lot,
>yes, but I'm hardly obsessed.

Could have fooled me.

> And don't worry.... I won't read your
>fanfic.

*shrug* Not like I'll notice when my email turns into a river of flame anyway. I don't do this for the praise of others, nor does Gryphon or any of the other fanfic writers I know of (at least, mostly not). But I know damn well what happens when someone posts an Evafic that doesn't consist of masturbating over Anno's series.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

>I am going by your actions. You post what is, in no uncertain terms,
>a flame, and when we don't act burned, disappear for a couple of days
>until someone responds with the appropriate level of vitriol, and then
>attack <em>us</em> in specific.

So, the amount of time between explaining oneself is proof of immaturity? Do you really think that she was sitting here, chuckling and rubbing her hands with glee as she waited before posting again? Or perhaps she had other things to do...or a life, something, judging by the volume of posts on this board, I'm severely lacking.

>You and your sock puppet "moon child"
>(whom I'm still awaiting conclusive proof is, in fact, someone else)

My dear, I am certainly a different person...last time I checked. Am I grafted on to you, rouge?

I provided you with a link to my own work, up for any criticism you see fit. I even included my email address on the page so you could respond. If you choose not to believe that we are seperate people, juat as I have a hard time believing that you people aren't more than perhaps five people with mulitiple accounts, then fine. It's really no skin off my nose.

>have done nothing but insult the people on this board.

What, by saying you are biased in terms of not having ANY constructive criticism for NXE Evangelion? My goodness, I don't understand why you cannot stand the pain. Even in the stuff I like, I find flaws and problems. Are you so blinded by hero worship that you can't do the same?

>
>>Why write a point-by-point dissection of a fanfic that's basically a
>>rehash of an original series?
>
>Clearly you haven't read the series, then.

Which I already explained. I HAVEN'T read the series, and am slowly wading my way through it.

>It is most definitely not
>a rehash of NGE -- the character arcs are fundamentally different,

Exactly. Why connect it to NGE at all? Why use the characters Rei and Asuka? You're still ignoring the fundemental argument: this series gets it's popularity from piggybacking. It shows no inspriration, other than the fact that some people decided to twist it--I mean, IMPROVE the original series, and has no point. It certainly doesn't improve upon the original.

>and
>the underlying motivation of the series villains as something
>altogether different.

It doesn't matter if I can't manage to make myself care a bit about the characters and their struggles. By the time I REACH the third season, I have a feeling I will be so alienated that I won't CARE what kind of struggles they go through. I can find nothing original in this work, and the characters are two-dimensional cut-outs.

>NXE is only superficially similar to NGE --
>under the surface, and in every way in the third season, they're
>completely different.

Then why bother to use the same characters and situations?

>If there was something specific one could reply to, I might have done
>that.

Prove that DJ isn't what we say he is. Back up your words with proof and specific incidences. See, that's not so hard.

>Except that Shinji wasn't all that effective as a sympathetic
>character.

Better him than a boy with no characterization at all. A walking puppet for the authors' egos, as you will.

>
>NGE is an excellent series that isn't about giant robots at all, which
>is vaguely annoying since its mecha have some of the niftiest designs
>ever.

Try reading the manga. And also, you cannot have a really good series of anything without character development, nifty giant robots or not.

>The Japanese title means "New Era Evangelion"; the "Neon Genesis"
>thing isn't really part of Anno's original idea, although it works as
>well if you know the etymology of all three words. NXE's title means
>something totally different.

Yes, it means moving the original plot to a location it was never intended to be in and having the original characters become bland parodies of their former selves.

>
>And your denial of Judeo-Christian mythology in NXE just demonstrates
>that you haven't the faintest clue what you're talking about.

If you have to point it out, then it's obvious no-one cares about the series to take the time thinking out the symbolism in the story.

>Oh, and here's the link, so you'll have no excuse for not reading it.
>
>http://www.eyrie-productions.com/Forum-docs/DCForumID5/1.html

I don't know about rouge, but I read the whole entire thread, and I still say that it doesn't answer the questions I have posed that well. Saying stuff like "every original character is a self-insertation" (wrong.) or the exclamations of DJ's changing without giving any solid evidence as to how he changed, or in what specffic incidences we can SEE his changes...

Still dodging.

>
>>Last I checked I was
>>female, and hardly a raving Evangelion fan. I like the series a lot,
>>yes, but I'm hardly obsessed.
>
>Could have fooled me.

Because she pointed out that NXE raped the original in order to ally itself with a common name instead of writing a crappy ORIGINAL mecha story that no-one would pay attention to, less much see fit to defend?

>I don't do this for the praise of others, nor does Gryphon or
>any of the other fanfic writers I know of (at least, mostly not).

Liar. Every author likes to get positive feedback. I even appreciate negative feedback. If they didn't like praise, they wouldn't post it in a public place. Most don't let it bloat their head to the point where they cannot see that there is some truth in others' criticism, however.

>>I am going by your actions. You post what is, in no uncertain terms,
>>a flame, and when we don't act burned, disappear for a couple of days
>>until someone responds with the appropriate level of vitriol, and then
>>attack <em>us</em> in specific.

To be honest, I have to say that you're being quite oversensitive. It's hardly as if I'm the first person to cricitize or make fun of a fancharacter, especially one who is such a blatant, laughable "Mary Sue" creation.

http://www.eva.onegeek.org/efrs/reviews/nxe3.html
http://members.nbci.com/yaanathn/essayacc.htm
http://www.eyrie.org/~sw/sbc/1999-06/1999-06-01.html
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2628/nxe1-1.txt
http://www.ibiblio.org/phil/fanfic/misc/condense.txt
http://users.cgiforme.com/daruma/messages/2429.html

(to list a few of the essays I've seen mentioning peoples' reviews of DJ and NEE)

>>You and your sock puppet "moon child"
>>(whom I'm still awaiting conclusive proof is, in fact, someone else)

No, I'm of no relation to moonchild, I was actually surprised to see her here- you see, she has the chutzpah to link to her real work, I couldn't be bothered.

>>have done nothing but insult the people on this board.

Have I insulted you, or anyone, on this board, apart from my parodizing NEE and criticizing it? Unless I said, "Hey, you stupid! Haha 5UX045!!!1!!11" and totally forgot, I havn't. Or do you take my differing opinion on a fanfiction series as a personal insult? It sounds like you really need a bit of a backbone.

>>Clearly you haven't read the series, then.

As I stated before, my attempt to read NEE caused me physical pain and disgusted me greatly. I'm not a masochist.

>>It is most definitely not
>>a rehash of NGE -- the character arcs are fundamentally different,

As long as it has the Evangelion name, the Evangelion characters, and the Evangelion story, it's a rehash of NGE. If Eyrie had wanted to make something "better than NGE", they should have gone to the effort of actually writing an ORIGINAL story, rather than taking NGE and messing the words up here and there.

>>NXE is only superficially similar to NGE --
>>under the surface, and in every way in the third season, they're
>>completely different.

Which is why all but a few of the characters from NGE, the Angels, Evangelions, and the storyline are still there. Yes- no, wait... I seem to remember they also inserted some X-Files, Tomb Raider, and X-Com references. Silly me; adding references from other series' which the writers are fans of makes it totally different and original work.

>>If there was something specific one could reply to, I might have done
>>that.

Well, you could, as moonchild said, try proving that I'm wrong about DJ. You responded to my critique of him with personal insults, rather than any kind of intelligent explaination or defense.

>>Except that Shinji wasn't all that effective as a sympathetic
>>character.

I suppose it depends on a personal opinion, doesn't it? I'll admit that my exposure to NGE has been through the manga that was written by Sadamoto Yoshiyuki, so it may be somewhat different to the anime.

>>
>>NGE is an excellent series that isn't about giant robots at all, which
>>is vaguely annoying since its mecha have some of the niftiest designs
>>ever.

And giant robots are more important than character development? Strange...

>
>>The Japanese title means "New Era Evangelion"; the "Neon Genesis"
>>thing isn't really part of Anno's original idea, although it works as
>>well if you know the etymology of all three words. NXE's title means
>>something totally different.

I already know the series' Japanese name and understand its translation. Genesis, in both english and in biblical terms, means "change". Exodus, in both biblical and english terms, means "purge" or "to leave". Was the title meant to suggest most peoples' reactions to the character of DJ?

>>
>>And your denial of Judeo-Christian mythology in NXE just demonstrates
>>that you haven't the faintest clue what you're talking about.

So the fact that I failed to recognize a few tidbits of useless additional information shoved in next to the bizzare parodying of the NGE characters and DJ's egotistic prancing means that my opinions aren't valid? You really need to get your priorities straight.... I think you also need to get a sense of humour.

>>Oh, and here's the link, so you'll have no excuse for not reading it.
>>
>>http://www.eyrie-productions.com/Forum-docs/DCForumID5/1.html
>

I'll read that later, but I honestly don't care about what other people said or thought. I state my opinions, and I don't expect childish insults and evasion-tactic rants in response.

>>I don't do this for the praise of others, nor does Gryphon or
>>any of the other fanfic writers I know of (at least, mostly not).

You could have fooled me.

>>>It is most definitely not
>>>a rehash of NGE -- the character arcs are fundamentally different,
>
>As long as it has the Evangelion name, the Evangelion characters, and
>the Evangelion story, it's a rehash of NGE. If Eyrie had wanted to
>make something "better than NGE", they should have gone to the effort
>of actually writing an ORIGINAL story, rather than taking NGE and
>messing the words up here and there.

I always felt that "better than NGE" was a poor choice of words. More entertaining than NGE is far more appropriate as far as I'm concerned

>>>NXE is only superficially similar to NGE --
>>>under the surface, and in every way in the third season, they're
>>>completely different.
>
>Which is why all but a few of the characters from NGE, the Angels,
>Evangelions, and the storyline are still there. Yes- no, wait... I
>seem to remember they also inserted some X-Files, Tomb Raider, and
>X-Com references. Silly me; adding references from other series'
>which the writers are fans of makes it totally different and original
>work.

It seems sort of an EPU tradition at this point to borrow characters and events from different works and meld them into a single story.

>And giant robots are more important than character development?
>Strange...

Now you're talking! Everything is better with giant robots

>>>And your denial of Judeo-Christian mythology in NXE just demonstrates
>>>that you haven't the faintest clue what you're talking about.
>
>So the fact that I failed to recognize a few tidbits of useless
>additional information shoved in next to the bizzare parodying of the
>NGE characters and DJ's egotistic prancing means that my opinions
>aren't valid? You really need to get your priorities straight.... I
>think you also need to get a sense of humour.

The problem here is that any references to anything past whatever point you read to are all hearsay. 3:7 could be full of original characters you've never seen before reading their favorite quotes from the bible, but unless someone told you about that part, you wouldn't know it.

Please note, I'm not saying you should read the series and find out, you've made it blatantly obvious that you don't care for the series, and with that eye condition causing you physical pain, it just can't be safe.

>I'll read that later, but I honestly don't care about what other
>people said or thought. I state my opinions, and I don't expect
>childish insults and evasion-tactic rants in response.

I think that you might be able to prevent some of that by posting some literary content with your next batch of fanart.

--------------------------------------
Whoa! What IS it?!

>>I don't do this for the praise of others, nor does Gryphon or
>>any of the other fanfic writers I know of (at least, mostly not).
>
>Liar. Every author likes to get positive feedback. I even appreciate
>negative feedback. If they didn't like praise, they wouldn't post it
>in a public place. Most don't let it bloat their head to the point
>where they cannot see that there is some truth in others' criticism,
>however.

I want to be nitpicky here for a second. He said that he doesn't do it (fanfiction) for the praise of others. He did not say that he did not appreciate praise when it happened. The two are unrelated.

--------------------------------------
Whoa! What IS it?!

>I want to be nitpicky here for a second. He said that he doesn't do
>it (fanfiction) for the praise of others. He did not say that he did
>not appreciate praise when it happened. The two are unrelated.

Point accepted. There is a difference, you are absolutely right about that.

>>I am going by your actions. You post what is, in no uncertain terms,
>>a flame, and when we don't act burned, disappear for a couple of days
>>until someone responds with the appropriate level of vitriol, and then
>>attack <em>us</em> in specific.
>
>So, the amount of time between explaining oneself is proof of
>immaturity? Do you really think that she was sitting here, chuckling
>and rubbing her hands with glee as she waited before posting again?
>Or perhaps she had other things to do...or a life, something, judging
>by the volume of posts on this board, I'm severely lacking.

Actually, I'd point to satirical cartoons depicting oral sex as being proof of immaturity.

And yes, I do think that she was sitting there, waiting for a "jihad" response. If not, wouldn't it have been much simpler to start the thread by explaining her hatred for the series?

The drawings don't count as critical analysis. It doesn't even point to the reasons that Roguebat hates the series. That could have been done easily enough; have Misato ask Rei if she's ever seen Ben and DJ in the same room at the same time. Or Ben jumps into a phone booth and DJ jumps out, in plug suit and cape.

As far as I can tell, the drawings had no point, and only one purpose: to piss NXE fans off. That's fine--it's still a free country.

But to post such work in a pro-NXE forum, wait for someone to get riled up about it, and then to try to come off as the injured party, that's immature.

--rR

>But to post such work in a pro-NXE forum, wait for someone to get
>riled up about it, and then to try to come off as the injured
>party, that's immature.

How have we come off as injured? From what I've seen, rouge posted the pictures, which were, most likely done in anger over how she felt over the series...

I'll let you in on a dirty little secret: I was the one who suggested she post them here. Still, they were a valid expression of anger. She doesn't like the character DJ, she showed him getting rejected by members of the original cast. Makes sense to me. Perhaps posting them here was not the best response, but if you want to blame anyone for that, blame me.

You WERE being insulting to her by slandering a person you know NOTHING about. That's wrong no matter what way you look at it. Mocking a fictional characer is one thing, dodging her points and telling her "she sux" in no uncertain terms is another. After all, she did have the courtesy to explain herself and her views. Something I have STILL yet to see from any of you.

Now, on the other hand, I come here and ask for answers after I see what's been happening, and rouge has explained her views on the series. You guys obviously cannot supply them. They're simple questions, simple points. And yet you cannot seem to get over US. Not the questions we ask, US being here. You completely ignore ANY content of our posts and repeat the same insipid arguments repeatedly.

>>But to post such work in a pro-NXE forum, wait for someone to get
>>riled up about it, and then to try to come off as the injured
>>party, that's immature.

I feel injured? Well, perhaps a tad indignant and frustrated that your only defense against criticism is juvenile, personal insults, yes.... You seem to forget that, as moonchild says, and I've repeatedly said, I've said nothing about you DJ fans. I've criticized the authors of NEE for living vicariously through their work, and I've shredded DJ for being a Mary-Sue, but I've yet to attack any of you.

It shows a distinct lack of integrity that you should take my criticisms as personal insults, and it says a lot about your ability to actually defend your views.

Yes, I'd originally just drawn 2 images and sent them to Mr. Hutchins there, but moochild, and quite a few other people who feel the same way about NEE as we do, egged me on. I did it personally because I felt like it, and because I wanted to get a rise out of people. I'll be frank about myself and say that I'm not the most courteous person around, but I "tell it like it is", and expect straight answers when I do ask straight questions.

>I feel injured? Well, perhaps a tad indignant and frustrated that
>your only defense against criticism is juvenile, personal insults,
>yes....

Personally, I have a hard time considering the way in which this entire thread began particularly mature. Linking to such graphic content under an implied false pretense with no explanation whatsoever as to the purpose of the drawings other than to rile people up (until 2 days later) just doesn't seem like an "adult" thing to do.

This doesn't justify immature responses, but it does set the tone. Its fairly natural for people to reply in a manner similar to the one they were addressed in after all.

--------------------------------------
Whoa! What IS it?!

>>But to post such work in a pro-NXE forum, wait for someone to get
>>riled up about it, and then to try to come off as the injured
>>party, that's immature.
>
>How have we come off as injured? From what I've seen, rouge posted
>the pictures, which were, most likely done in anger over how she felt
>over the series...

>...

>Now, on the other hand, I come here and ask for answers after I see
>what's been happening, and rouge has explained her views on the
>series. You guys obviously cannot supply them. They're simple
>questions, simple points. And yet you cannot seem to get over US.
>Not the questions we ask, US being here. You completely ignore ANY
>content of our posts and repeat the same insipid arguments repeatedly.

Thank you for answering your own question.
--rR

>And yes, I do think that she was sitting there, waiting for a "jihad"
>response. If not, wouldn't it have been much simpler to start the
>thread by explaining her hatred for the series?

Well hell, if she wanted a "jihad" response, I'd have posted just my .sig earlier in this madness.

Wait... that's not the Jihad she was looking for, huh? :)

Mr. Fnord, shamelessly plugging because it gets so very lonely on jihad.net sometimes. :(
--
The Jihad to Destroy Barney the Dinosaur
http://www.jihad.net/
"WE'RE STILL HERE, GODDAMMIT!"

>In other words, you deliberately trolled, waiting for some hothead to
>respond in anger -- which none of us save Fanatic did -- and then went
>on to rant about NXE.
>-- Sean --
>
Not to extend this guy's 15 seconds of fame, BUT FTR I really didn't get close to loosing my cool.
Ask around the net, My temper is known on three continents and IF It was chili, I doubt Zoner would eat it.
IF You noticed in post some where I mentioned in a jokin' manner that my middle name is Big goon, I did mean it.
JSYKITF, When I'm using all caps and using colorful language (namely various F words) then you know I'm angry.
Fan
In the words of advice by Dr. Bruce Banner (The TV Incredible Hulk)
"Don't make me angry Mr. McGee, you wouldn't like me when I'm angry."
BTW I'm chilled.
FYI No Threats.

>Not to extend this guy's 15 seconds of fame, BUT FTR I really didn't
>get close to loosing my cool.

Judging by your description of what you would have done if you had, I'm glad you didn't. It would have been an almost unbearably piquant irony to have to axe a forum user for his response to a troll.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

LAST EDITED ON Aug-24-01 AT 03:08 PM (EDT)

>>Not to extend this guy's 15 seconds of fame, BUT FTR I really didn't
>>get close to loosing my cool.
>
>Judging by your description of what you would have done if you had,
>I'm glad you didn't. It would have been an almost unbearably piquant
>irony to have to axe a forum user for his response to a troll.
>
>--G.
>-><-
>Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
>Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Ben,
I've learned my lessons and I DO know that I should think before hitting the enter key, All you got to remember is I'm loyal to my friends and I take insults to them as an insult to me as with threats.
Ok?
Patrick
And upon pondering this for a while...
I guess I just recongized some people here as friends.
Dex be praised!

>plonk<

--
Geoff Depew - Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Malakite of Lightning and Angel of Tech Support Professionals
(They won't give me LARTs, they say that's restricted to Michael.)

>Oh my! What indifference is this, again? \^n_n^/
>
>Just to calm you, I'll explain why I decided to waste a few minutes of
>my life drawing derogatory pictures of the worst fanfic character
>ever....

(snip explanation)

Not a flame, but an honest question.

Why did you post this here? What did you hope to accomplish?

I mean, if you hate NXE, that's one thing. If you want to criticize it (as in "I didn't like/hate NXE because..."), well and good. But I'm having trouble understanding why you introduced yourself to the forum in this fashion if you didn't intend to provoke this type of reaction.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm having a hard time seeing this as anything other than an attempt to provoke a flame-fest. If you were trying to do something else, please enlighten me.

Eric J. Heckathorn
ericjh@stargate.net

hmm, big target..
Should I shoot?
Can't miss.
Nah.
Fan Who's middle name is "Big Goon"

>It's lower then whale shit. IT plain sucks.
>I know of a couple really good fan artists, and I personally know a
>couple from other fan groups.

Fan,

YHBT.

HTH. HAND.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>Fan,
>
>YHBT.
>
>HTH. HAND.
>
Gryph,

HUH?

Fan

Translation:

You have been trolled.

Hope this helps. Have a nice day.

Highly sarcastic, and not approving at all. Rougher translation: don't get outraged at trolls.
-Eliot "Sharing the sentiment" Lefebvre
-=()=-
We're only given a little time in our lives to waste. Make the most of it.
Electronic Transcendence Productions
Producer of, um, stuff for an unspecified time-period.
Thoughts of the moment, and such

>>Fan,
>>
>>YHBT.
>>
>>HTH. HAND.
>>
>Gryph,
>
>HUH?
>
>Fan

You Have Been Trolled.

Hope This Helps. Have A Nice Day.

YMMV.

HTH. HAGD.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

LAST EDITED ON Aug-20-01 AT 02:49 PM (EDT)

>>Fan,
>>
>>YHBT.
>>
>>HTH. HAND.
>>
>Gryph,
>
>HUH?

http://www.science.uva.nl/~mes/jargon/y/yhbt.html

Replace 'You Have Lost' with 'Hope This Helps' or some variant thereof.

------------------------
"saaaausaaaage... "
------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

-->edit: Damn I'm slow. Third again. Nuts. :)

D'oh!
TMS from RL&W SAI.
TY
Fan

This will probably be my only post in this thread unless things change. I debated replying at all but decided to address things in one post.

1. Yes, I think rougebat and moon child are trolling. Classic childish things like using 'NEE' when everyone else uses 'NXE' and they know it, bad 'fan art', etc. I've been online for more than a decade now, and I've seen it all way too many times.

2. However, I'm rather disappointed in a number of our 'fans' for the way they replied. I'm not going to name names, but some people need to chill. The kind of 'defense' they offered makes Eyrie, and Eyrie fans, look bad. Descending immediately into name calling, insulting other people's work without reading it, etc, is uncalled for. That's exactly the kind of thing trolls do. Don't feed the troll. If you think someone is trolling do not reply. If you simply must reply, then reply in a calm, rational manner. If the person is really a troll, they'll lose interest. If they are really trying to make a point and are just terrible at it, maybe they'll learn to be more polite.

3. While I do think that rougebat and moon child are trolling (or maybe just take NGE a bit too seriously if fanfics that change things really do upset them that much (which is kind of frightening if true)), there are some reasonable criticisms scattered about in there. It looks bad to just flippantly dismiss everything as invalid.

4. I don't feel like responding to any points made, let alone the flames, directly simply because I've responded to them all before! Go to Deja - now Google - and check out RAAM/RAAF. Rougebat and moon child have not said one thing that hasn't said before. I got tired of addressing these things years ago - NXE is several years old, all of these things were tossed out (in many cases in a much more constructive tone) at the time. I don't feel like getting into it all again, frankly it just bores me know. I've heard the feedback, I've responded to it, and been through the iterations a number of times. I don't have anything new to say. If some new point is posted, I'll address it.

5. This does bring up a rant I've been meaning to write. Why do people read *anything* that they don't like? (I mean other than assignments in school.) Even if it is from some macabre interest, then complaining about it is silly. I know Dale Brown is a *bad* author, and I still pick up his new books from time to time and read them even though they make me groan. But I don't then write letters to Dale about how it hurts to read his books. I can only view comments like that in two ways: a) a troll or b) the sign of a disturbed individual. People, it is fiction, a story - it can't cause pain. And if reading it is so terrible then stop reading it! It makes no sense.

6. I don't think anyone (aside from maybe some fans) ever claimed NXE, or any other Eyrie story, is perfect. Quite the contrary, the authors, myself included, have frequently commented about how bad we think a lot of our older stories are. We also don't expect everyone to like what we write, that'd be stupid. In fact, I quite expect there to be someone who completely hates every thing I ever write. That's fine by me. I don't care if people don't like it - that's to be expected. Some people do like it - and that's cool too. I don't feel the need to justify everything just because someone doesn't like a story. If they don't like it then I can accept that as is. If someone wants to provide constructive criticism, it is more than welcome. I don't feel that either rougebat or moon child have done so.

7. It would be trivial to lock this thread and/or ban rougebat and moon child from the forums. But I think either move would simply be descending to the level of a troll. However, if this thread continues to descend into the flames and complete unproductivity, I will lock it simply to spare the disc and bandwidth. If rougebat and/or moon child actually want to provide real constructive criticism, as they like to claim, they are welcome to do so.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
See what I'm selling on eBay

Since you complained about it, I went and removed you from the email notification list for this thread.

You're welcome.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
See what I'm selling on eBay

Thank you very much. I appreciate it. I was beginning to feel very frustrated to the point where it was disrupting my interaction with people I care about. Also, I feel much better now and less inclined to be so bitchy.

As for the reason why I would read something I dislike, it's simple curiosity. And, there have been times when I thoght I would hate something and ended up liking it. However, if I DON'T like it, then I DO discuss it. If I walk out of a movie theater hating the movie, it helps to get to the bottom of why I felt that way. If the director of the movie was THERE, I would have no problem saying such things to his face. If I did, it would be hypocritical. You're much more avalible for a disscussion than a director or an author, and therefore I don't hesitate to say what I think.

LAST EDITED ON Aug-19-01 AT 02:54 AM (EDT)

LAST EDITED ON Aug-19-01 AT 02:51 AM (EDT)

I didn't want to post to this thread, but I was bothered that everyone stood up for NXE, but not for DJ himself. I'd like to do that now. After I'm done, I'm going to go read the NXE hostility thread... I never did, truth be told. I like it too much to criticize it in good conscience, even though, like any work, it will have its flaws. Such is the nature of human endeavour. I also don't enjoy debating such things from the other side, as it distances me from the story and damges my ability to lose myself in the story, to view it as another, valid, existing reality on another plane of existence, which is how I view almost all fiction, always have, and in Hoplessly Lost, MZ and G gave it a name for me, Transfictionality. Anyway...

Quote from Rouge-----
DJ has NO redeeming qualities- I suppose that's what struck me so harshly while trying to read NEE. Even though the author has a decent grip on the english language, (indeed, his writing is quite good) the character he created posesses none of the emotions, (indeed, any emotions apart from maybe smug arrogance) quirks and insecurities that made Shinji such a likeable character. NEE then goes on to trample all the cultural references and canon characters of NGE into the dust with glee, destroying its biblical references, and collapsing into itself in a fantastic display of the author's own bloated, desperate egoism. Even the self-pitying xenophobia of David Gonterman's stories pales in comparison to the slick, elegant sexism and self-inflation created by "DJ Croft" as he sculpts all of the canon aspects of NGE to suit his own security blanket fanfic and forget that he's really as dull and miserable as every normal human being.
End Quote------

OK, simple fact is, I don't like Shinji Ikari, and could in no way describe him as likeable. It's been a -long- time since I saw NGE, but I have seen it all the way through, to include the movies. I liked it at the time. It was a mind-trip. I got to like some of the characters, some moreso than others, and I suffered with them as they plowed through a miserable existence, the lynchpin of which was Shinji Ikari.
Shinji was selfish, weak, and, at the end, he proved himself the basest of cowards, in my eyes. He had absolutely no self-confidence, and though I truly believe he may have grown to love those he associated with in NERV, his actions and/or inactions all led them down a path to misery, and eventually, untimely death. This is not a person I would describe as likeable. As a matter of fact, I would find myself rapidly placing distance between myself and this person, by means of the most rapid transit possible.
DJ on the other hand, is a good human being. He has his flaws... once again, I point out the fact that no human being can be perfect. But this is a fact: his presence, his actions, his bravado, his skills, his destiny; they all combined to drive out the lynchpin Ikari and allow the others to follow a path that, though we are yet to see if it leads to their demise, is a happier one in the meantime. NGE Shinji Ikari is the one who cannot be redeemed, not in my eyes, for he committed the sin I find the most hideous: Shinji Ikari let down his friends in their times of need.
NXE Shinji, on the other hand, is redeemed. With the help of, say it with me, DJ Croft.
Now, it's time to go tangential (Is that a word? If not, change that to it's time to go off on a tangent). I find disturbing the societal mindset the whole DJ Croft vs. NGE Shinji affair represents. Do we really live in a world where heroes are not only obsolete, but hated? I've read more than once how people hate DJ, Dirk Pitt, James Bond, Jack Ryan, et al because they're HEROES. Men of action, who are brave, loyal, and work hard to save us from evil, so we can sleep peacefully and not fear things that go bump in the night, are to be respected, not hated. This trend is not limited to fiction. Even the soldiers of our nation, past and present, are no longer regarded with reverence. People like Audie Murphy and Carlos Hathcock are despised because they carried a rifle and killed with it, even though they fought heroically in defense of -US-. DJ is a hero, and I would be proud to call him friend, if he existed on this plane. That's far more than I can say for Shinji bloody Ikari.
"I fight for truth, I fight for glory, I fight for love, I fight for beauty"
And my reply to that, dear friends, is simply, "Amen."

Antonio Jackson "TRB" Phillips

(Anonymity be damned, I stand by this enough to put my full name on it.)

Well said.

t.
Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

Perhaps it's because my exposure to the Evangelion story has been through the manga written and drawn by Gainax character designer Sadamoto Yoshiyuki, but the Shinji I know has many redeeming qualities. He's shy and vulnerable, but compassionate and willing to rise to the occasion when he's needed; he communicates with the distant Rei, (if to some degree) and comes to an understanding with Asuka, whose character is almost a total foil to his. Despite the situation he's in, he prefers pacifism over violence, (his response to Touji's challenge) and isn't without a sense of humour.

DJ on the other hand, is totally arrogant and detestable; I can hope he gets better later in the series, but I've heard to the contrary, and I'm too sick of him to give it a second try.

>Perhaps it's because my exposure to the Evangelion story has been
>through the manga written and drawn by Gainax character designer
>Sadamoto Yoshiyuki, but the Shinji I know has many redeeming
>qualities.

We know. That's why we used him instead of the TV version when the time came to reintroduce him.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>>Perhaps it's because my exposure to the Evangelion story has been
>>through the manga written and drawn by Gainax character designer
>>Sadamoto Yoshiyuki, but the Shinji I know has many redeeming
>>qualities.
>We know. That's why we used him instead of the TV version when the time came
>to reintroduce him.

Hah! I knew it! The Shinji in NXE often seems very different from the anime version. I've mostly put it down to the fact that in this one, he actually has people he can consider friends and family, but I had seen a few pieces of the manga where I could stand him.

Matrix Dragon

LAST EDITED ON Aug-21-01 AT 12:53 PM (EDT)

And what about the men on that big frikin' wall in DC?
They all went as young men, Younger then me to fight a LOSING war in VN because our country thought it was wrong for China and Russia to influence that country.
I work for a company that produces a little magazine aimed to help the veterans of our wars to make seeing their old shipmates, buddies from the VA Hospital, the dank jungles, swealtering deserts, overgrown forrests, the cold and snowy mountains, blue skies to the deep blue seas where US sailers and soldiers fought and died, by giving them information about locations and how to plan a reunion for alot of people.
Hero's do the right thing at the right time, cowards hide.
Everybody has a hero, Be it Richard Petty or MINE Captain and OWNER of the Pittsburgh Penguins Mario Lemieux THE toughest man to ever hit the ice!
DJ Croft as a charector is alright, as a hero He just kicks ass.
Fan

Trigger: Why thank you.

Fan: Indeed. Their homecoming reception is one of the earlier examples of the attitude to which I refer...

Rouge: I admit having no exposure to the manga. Perhaps the Shinji therein wouldn't be such a focused target of the malice I have for his NGE anime self. Perhaps, one day in far future when Sadamoto finally finishes -his- reinterpretation of NGE and we get to see if Shinji actually -tries- this time around, I can regard him in a new light.

Gryphon: Thanks for using a version of him that doesn't make me want to put a bullet into the monitor, in the infinitely improbable hope it will break through transfictional barriers and reach its true target >_>

TRB

"I wish I was reaper, culling lost souls. I wish I could cast them into deep and lonely holes."

>Fan: Indeed. Their homecoming reception is one of the earlier examples
>of the attitude to which I refer...
>
>TRB
Yep I know, That Jane Fonda didn't help much with her "goodwill" visit to Hanoi.
You should read what they did to the POWs at the "Hanoi Hilton" when they didn't get what they wanted when she was there, plus she had the GALL to hand over slips of paper that they palmed to her with their SSNs on them that they were using to try to get word back here that they were still alive, and people wonder why she's SO hated by VN Vets.

I've got relatives that fought over there and I've had teachers who protested here. My 11th Grade English teacher lost a buddy at Kent State, where they were in college together.

Fan I don't feel too good but am still working on this access thing.

Whoa. I drop off the net for the weekend and look what happens. Anyway, here's my two cents worth, take it as you will....

If you don't like something, you don't have to read it. Don't go around telling everyone how bad it is, and how everything about it is poor quality. That's your opinion. I disagree with you, but I will respect it.

What I can not respect is the pointless abuse thrown around here over the past few days. Both Pro- and anti- fans are guilty of this, most notably in the way many of them seem to be ignoring each others views on the topic. There has been abuse directed at both the fans and the authors which really has no point to it.

So on that statement, I'm punching out. Call me when some of you start acting more mature.

Matrix Dragon