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Forum Name: Games
Topic ID: 106
#0, Replaying ME2
Posted by Gryphon on Apr-16-17 at 06:44 PM
It had been long enough since last time that I'd forgotten a number of things. Unfortunately they were mostly things that I dislike about it, like how tedious the missions are (move 6 feet, hide behind a box, shoot some dudes, move 6 feet...) and how long and tedious the DLC missions are. Lair of the Shadow Broker just goes on and on, and I don't think I've ever even bothered to finish Arrival. And the vehicle ones are even worse! People bitched about how dull it was driving the Mako around in the original game, but I will always maintain that moonsurfing with the Mako has nothing on the anguish of trying to make any progress at all with the Hammerhead.

I mean don't get me wrong, it has its moments—maybe one cycle out of fifty, that hide-behind-a-box, shoot-some-dudes combat mechanic yields some really amusing outcome—but it reminds me that I've always been mostly here for the cutscenes.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#1, RE: Replaying ME2
Posted by Kendra Kirai on Apr-16-17 at 11:17 PM
In response to message #0
I rather disliked ME2 myself. It became too cover-based-action-game after its roots as an actual action-RPG.

I never had the problems people had with the Mako, either. I'd think it was because I played on PC rather than console, but I either played with my 360 controller anyway, or a mouse and keyboard, which would logically be WORSE.

Then ME3 was Origin Only, and like hell I'm letting THAT touch my computer, so OH WELL.

Is Andromeda on Steam again, or is it still shackled to the cancer that is Origin, or whatever EA is calling it now? I think they changed it at some point. I haven't had a proper PC for over a year now so I haven't really run Steam in ages.


#2, RE: Replaying ME2
Posted by Verbena on Apr-17-17 at 06:24 AM
In response to message #1
>Is Andromeda on Steam again, or is it still shackled to the cancer
>that is Origin, or whatever EA is calling it now? I think they changed
>it at some point. I haven't had a proper PC for over a year now so I
>haven't really run Steam in ages.

Unfortunately, Andromeda is indeed Origin only.

------
Fearless creatures, we all learn to fight the Reaper
Can't defeat Her, so instead I'll have to be Her


#3, RE: Replaying ME2
Posted by MoonEyes on Apr-17-17 at 10:21 AM
In response to message #2
And even if it wasn't, it'd most likely be both, with Steam some sort of weird shell over Origin...it does this with Uplay, so I would assume it does it with any other "not actually Steam"

...!
Stoke Mandeville, Esq & The Victorian Ballsmiths
"Nobody Want Verdigris-Covered Balls!"


#5, RE: Replaying ME2
Posted by Mercutio on Apr-17-17 at 02:14 PM
In response to message #1

>I never had the problems people had with the Mako, either.

My one problem with the Mako was just how damn long it took the shields to regenerate. Like, I could go make a sandwich in the time that took.

I liked tooling around in it and shooting stuff with it, I really did. But it heavily incentivized deeply conservative play, because you needed to either get to the end of the driving sequence and/or clean out the planet you were on, and if you died you lost your progress unless you were diligent about saving.

So you were encouraged to creep around very slowly and snipe things from very far away rather than smash into obstacles with your awesome space tank, guns a'blazing, or to move in tight on a Colossus and dodge between its legs and suchly, because if you fucked up that was it. Hell, not even if you fucked up; if you just took a bunch of shield damage you had to wait an unreasonable long period.

-Merc
Keep Rat


#6, RE: Replaying ME2
Posted by Arashi on Apr-17-17 at 02:28 PM
In response to message #5
>
>>I never had the problems people had with the Mako, either.
>
>My one problem with the Mako was just how damn long it took the
>shields to regenerate. Like, I could go make a sandwich in the time
>that took.

I never really had that issue, but that's most likely due to my tendency to get out of the Mako and fight everything on foot. Which went double for Colossi and Maws.

The Hammerhead was... sometimes fun as an infinite rocket platform, but otherwise I just moved through those maps in as little time as I could manage.

Andromeda's Nomad has a lot of elements of the Mako, though with out it's vertical power and any form of weapon, it's kind of fun to just floor the 'pedal' and tear across the terrain.


#8, RE: Replaying ME2
Posted by Gryphon on Apr-17-17 at 02:47 PM
In response to message #6
>I never really had that issue, but that's most likely due to my
>tendency to get out of the Mako and fight everything on foot. Which
>went double for Colossi and Maws.

"Hmm. This thing is a giant acid-spitting subterranean teeth monster, like a sarlacc that can come after you to a limited extent. I'd better get out of the tank to deal with it."

As I believe the young people used to say, homey says whaaaaaaaa?

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#15, RE: Replaying ME2
Posted by Arashi on Apr-18-17 at 01:04 PM
In response to message #8
>>I never really had that issue, but that's most likely due to my
>>tendency to get out of the Mako and fight everything on foot. Which
>>went double for Colossi and Maws.
>
>"Hmm. This thing is a giant acid-spitting subterranean teeth monster,
>like a sarlacc that can come after you to a limited extent.
>I'd better get out of the tank to deal with it."

Exactly! *beams*

>As I believe the young people used to say, homey says whaaaaaaaa?

Well, I had two reasons for Maws. The first and most 'important', I got more XP for fighting on foot. ;) Second reason was that outside of the Mako, even with the strafing around it, the Maw doesn't go back underground. As long as I don't get close enough for it to use it's melee lunge, it just stays up in one spot occasionally spitting acid at a location I've already left. Granted sometimes one of the squaddies isn't so fleet of foot *cough Garrus cough* and falls over from an acid hit but Maws quickly became routine. And once I got Specter X weapons/mods on everyone, it didn't even last long.


#9, RE: Replaying ME2
Posted by Matrix Dragon on Apr-17-17 at 04:41 PM
In response to message #6
>Andromeda's Nomad has a lot of elements of the Mako, though with out
>it's vertical power and any form of weapon, it's kind of fun to just
>floor the 'pedal' and tear across the terrain.

And over the Kett.

"Speed bump!"

Matrix Dragon, J. Random Nutter


#10, RE: Replaying ME2
Posted by Verbena on Apr-17-17 at 05:44 PM
In response to message #9
>And over the Kett.
>
>"Speed bump!"

I think the only thing I enjoy doing more in that game besides running over Kett is picking them off with my Widow.


------
Fearless creatures, we all learn to fight the Reaper
Can't defeat Her, so instead I'll have to be Her


#11, RE: Replaying ME2
Posted by Mercutio on Apr-17-17 at 05:53 PM
In response to message #10
LAST EDITED ON Apr-17-17 AT 05:57 PM (EDT)
 
>I think the only thing I enjoy doing more in that game besides running
>over Kett is picking them off with my Widow.

... you use a Widow?

May I ask why? The Black Widow is literally right next to it and is objectively better in basically every way.

Indeed, I would argue this is one of the huge drawbacks of the sniper rifle family in ME:A. There really isn't a "choice." The Black Widow is far and away the best sniper rifle; it isn't even close. At least in ME2 if you wanted the thing you had to forgo other possibilities.

-Merc
Keep Rat


#13, RE: Replaying ME2
Posted by Verbena on Apr-18-17 at 05:39 AM
In response to message #11
Um, it does more damage. Admittedly the -amount- of more damage isn't really enough to justify the downsides, but it does do more.

Then again, the Isharay hits even harder.

------
Fearless creatures, we all learn to fight the Reaper
Can't defeat Her, so instead I'll have to be Her


#14, RE: Replaying ME2
Posted by MoonEyes on Apr-18-17 at 12:37 PM
In response to message #13
I was about to say, yeah. The number of things that the Isharay can't one-shot is....well, fiends, really. And even they don't stand many shots....which, considering it's a sniper rifle...well, they don't tend to actually reach you.


...!
Stoke Mandeville, Esq & The Victorian Ballsmiths
"Nobody Want Verdigris-Covered Balls!"


#16, RE: Replaying ME2
Posted by Verbena on Apr-18-17 at 04:47 PM
In response to message #14
>I was about to say, yeah. The number of things that the Isharay can't
>one-shot is....well, fiends, really. And even they don't stand many
>shots....which, considering it's a sniper rifle...well, they don't
>tend to actually reach you.

If there is a weapon in that game that does more single-shot damage than an Isharay I have yet to find it. Really, the Angarans only field that and the Ushior pistol, don't they? And they are two of the slowest firing, heaviest hitting weapons in ANY Mass Effect game.

My favorite weapon for commentary, though is the Kett Naladen sniper rifle. Something like, "This weapon mixes precision targeting with indiscriminate AOE damage. What that says about Kett culture is best left to expert xenosociologists."


------
Fearless creatures, we all learn to fight the Reaper
Can't defeat Her, so instead I'll have to be Her


#17, RE: Replaying ME2
Posted by MoonEyes on Apr-18-17 at 06:23 PM
In response to message #16
Yeap, pretty much that.
Me, I wish there was something like a battle-rifle in the game. Like the Cerberus Harrier. Slower auto, harder hitting. Everything in the game is a zip-gun. Machineguns, even minigun-like, or the M8 Avenger basic assault rifle. I want something like an equivalent to an M-14 or a G3. Classical battle rifle.

...!
Stoke Mandeville, Esq & The Victorian Ballsmiths
"Nobody Want Verdigris-Covered Balls!"


#18, RE: Replaying ME2
Posted by Verbena on Apr-18-17 at 10:13 PM
In response to message #17
>Yeap, pretty much that.
>Me, I wish there was something like a battle-rifle in the game. Like
>the Cerberus Harrier. Slower auto, harder hitting. Everything in the
>game is a zip-gun. Machineguns, even minigun-like, or the M8 Avenger
>basic assault rifle. I want something like an equivalent to an M-14 or
>a G3. Classical battle rifle.
>
>...!
>Stoke Mandeville, Esq & The Victorian Ballsmiths
>"Nobody Want Verdigris-Covered Balls!"

The closest you're going to get in Andromeda is the Mattock or other similar, semi-auto weapons. The best of that bunch is the M-99 Saber from ME3, but alas, that doesn't seem to have been one of the ones to make it over. (Really, I miss almost all the geth weapons, too...)


------
Fearless creatures, we all learn to fight the Reaper
Can't defeat Her, so instead I'll have to be Her


#12, RE: Replaying ME2
Posted by Kendra Kirai on Apr-17-17 at 11:25 PM
In response to message #5
Well, that was the thing, wasn't it? The Mako wasn't a TANK. It was at best a space APC. The Mass Effect equivalent of a Halo Warthog. With similarly weightless controls.

#4, RE: Replaying ME2
Posted by MoonEyes on Apr-17-17 at 10:23 AM
In response to message #0
Well, Andromeda has neither a Mako nor a Hammerhead. It has a NOMAD!
Which is a 4/6-wheel-drive all-terrain vehicle that is cool as hell. The one thing that I sort of feel the lack of is a gun, but hey...

...!
Stoke Mandeville, Esq & The Victorian Ballsmiths
"Nobody Want Verdigris-Covered Balls!"


#7, RE: Replaying ME2
Posted by Mercutio on Apr-17-17 at 02:29 PM
In response to message #0
>It had been long enough since last time that I'd forgotten a number of
>things. Unfortunately they were mostly things that I dislike about
>it, like how tedious the missions are (move 6 feet, hide behind a box,
>shoot some dudes, move 6 feet...)

One of the few things that Andromeda has done very, very right is change that dynamic.

I mean... you can play ME:A as a straight-up cover shooter if you want to. Sure. In fact that's how I'm playing it. I like playing my Shepard-equivalents as an implacable walking tank carrying a huge arsenal of awesome guns backed up by heavy weapons and occasionally space magic.

But you don't have to do that.

It is both possible and very easy in ME:A to play Ryder as a mobile ball of flaming death. You've got an evade-dash, a jump jet, a hover option, and a million and one weapon modification and power options that you do things like "biotic charge into melee range, which does a ton of damage, then melee the fuck out of the one guy who lived with my giant krogan hammer, which recharges my shields when I hit him, then leap into the air, hover, use my SMG that I modified to have pinpoint accuracy and bigger clips than many assault rifles to rip the shield off the guy in the watchtower, biotic charge into him from my hovering position, then fire a singularity into that squad of guys who think they're in sufficient cover to avoid me before chain-overloading them, which sets off a biotic combo for massive damage. Oh, and I turn briefly invincible when I use my evade-dash, which can also teleport me through obstacles, did I mention that?"

You can also do a stealth build, where you're a ninja of death who floats around the battlefield with their tactical cloaking options, walking right up behind dudes, jamming your pistol right into the back of their skull, and kissing them goodnight.

ME:A isn't a great game. But they should be justifiably proud of the mechanical system undergirding it.

>and how long and tedious the
>DLC missions are. Lair of the Shadow Broker just goes on and
>on, and I don't think I've ever even bothered to finish
>Arrival.

... really? I loved the DLC missions. I feel like I was getting great value for money on them. They were fun and exciting and had great lore and interesting gameplay. The only set I didn't care for were...

>And the vehicle ones are even worse! People bitched
>about how dull it was driving the Mako around in the original game,
>but I will always maintain that moonsurfing with the Mako has nothing
>on the anguish of trying to make any progress at all with the
>Hammerhead.

Yes. That. I don't... I don't understand the logic behind the Hammerhead. I do not.

-Merc
Keep Rat


#19, RE: Replaying ME2
Posted by Matrix Dragon on Apr-19-17 at 06:54 AM
In response to message #0
I replayed parts of all three games in the leadup to MEA, and I think that, for me at least, 2 is the one that's aged the worst.

Plotline wise, we've got the entire Cerberus thing painfully destroying the illusion of choice, and the Council becoming even dumber than the original game is just plain infuriating. And Liara the cold-blooded information broker still makes no sense. Also the Virmire Survivor being a massive ass.

Gameplay, even with world-building extensions like Omega and Illium, reducing all the missions to cover based straight paths honestly made it feel a lot smaller to me. And if they wanted an ammo system, they needed to make it work a lot better. Way too much running out of ammo in the middle of a fight for no damn reason.

And the Hammerhead is the worst vehicle in all the Mass Effect games, coming in well behind Lair of the Shadow Brokers taxi.

Matrix Dragon, J. Random Nutter


#20, RE: Replaying ME2
Posted by CdrMike on Apr-19-17 at 09:52 AM
In response to message #19
>I replayed parts of all three games in the leadup to MEA, and I think
>that, for me at least, 2 is the one that's aged the worst.

Agreed.

>Plotline wise, we've got the entire Cerberus thing painfully
>destroying the illusion of choice, and the Council becoming even
>dumber than the original game is just plain infuriating.

The former becomes even more of a joke when you get to ME3 and they shell out to you this quick explanation that the whole thing was (in Bioware's minds) a cunning plan: The Illusive Man rebuilt the Normandy and put together the least-xenophobic crew he could find, all with the intent of having Shepard be the poster boy for Cerberus while the rank-and-file are the futuristic Waffen-SS. And that the plan fell apart because Shepard is just that charismatic and awesome that the crew all fell in behind you and against Cerberus. This was supposed to explain why Cerberus went from "We're just looking out for humanity!" in ME2 to "Genocide is just our hobby, galactic domination is our occupation" in ME3.

And the whole business with the Council was about making Shepard look like the "Only Sane Man" of the series, else Bioware might have had to come up with a more intelligent reason to explain why the Citadel Races didn't throw their support behind dealing with the threat of the Reapers.

>And Liara the
>cold-blooded information broker still makes no sense. Also the Virmire
>Survivor being a massive ass.

Again, all this only gets more ridiculous when you get to ME3 and you get told that the former lost most of her semi-criminal empire due to Cerberus, and the latter kicks themself for not jumping at your offer. It's like Bioware took notes from Marvel on the process of performing a bad retcon.

>Gameplay, even with world-building extensions like Omega and Illium,
>reducing all the missions to cover based straight paths honestly made
>it feel a lot smaller to me. And if they wanted an ammo system, they
>needed to make it work a lot better. Way too much running out of ammo
>in the middle of a fight for no damn reason.

I've mentioned this before, but the whole "heat clip" business was originally supposed to be part of a "hybrid" system that they thought was oh-so-clever. The whole thing would run like this: When you held down the trigger, the clip would quickly empty and then be ejected. But when you held fire for a few seconds, the clip would automatically regenerate. Ammo would even regenerate without a clip, but it was just be slower to do so. They dropped it around the time they realized testers were exploiting the system by hunkering down while their guns reloaded, killing the whole "fast-paced action" they'd be going for.

>And the Hammerhead is the worst vehicle in all the Mass Effect games,
>coming in well behind Lair of the Shadow Brokers taxi.


Another one of those "Let's try to address fan complaints!" moves that just showed that Bioware didn't understand the reason for the complaints. I'm still a proud member of the Mako Mountain Climbing Team to this day and think so many of the problems with it are what have already been covered: It was not a fan of abuse in combat and so you had to play cautiously to succeed with it. I know a lot of my combat turned into gunnery duels, which is why I hated that Bioware shoehorned such sections into every mission. But the Hammerhead was not the answer to that problem and I'm glad Bioware got that message. Now if they can just put a gun back on the Nomad, I'd love it all the more.


#21, RE: Replaying ME2
Posted by Mercutio on Apr-19-17 at 12:42 PM
In response to message #19
>I replayed parts of all three games in the leadup to MEA, and I think
>that, for me at least, 2 is the one that's aged the worst.

The cast and characterization, and everyone's personal journey stuff, is loads better than one and I think probably even better than three. It has that going for it.

>Plotline wise, we've got the entire Cerberus thing painfully
>destroying the illusion of choice,

This was especially annoying because... hrm.

Bioware has never been that great at its illusion of choice to begin with, because they don't want to spend time creating content people won't see. (Whether that makes them efficient developers or whether it makes them lazy and wanting to have their cake and eat it to is an open question.)

But in the first game you had a TON of personality and policy paths you could take Shepard down and it all held together relatively well.

I did a "darkest timeline" full Mass Effect playthrough once. By which I mean all three games. And in the first game, you can play Shepard as an actual bad person, a racist, a human supremacist who thinks those Cerberus guys kinda have the right idea and who is fairly open that they plan to use their Spectre status to undermine the Council from the inside, who refuses to have a turian aboard their ship and who leaves Wrex's corpse laying on the beach on Virmire without even looking back.

The pull the choke-chain on that during the second game. They pull it HARD. The closest they'll let you come is betraying Samara in favor of Morinth, a decision that makes no fucking sense in the context of the rest of the game, where even a hardcore Renegade Shepard is required to play as a fundamentally decent person. You can't really go native into Cerberus.

Now, there's nothing wrong with that per se... but if you played at the extreme edge of the first game it was INCREDIBLY noticeable.

I'll give them credit for the third game; getting everyone except Morinth and Zaeed killed in the suicide mission (it actually takes a lot of planning to do that) is actually quite seamless. You have less buddies to banter around with but the narrative flows incredibly well; you don't even notice. The only sticking point is when they bring Legion back as a VI, because they wrote Rannoch in a way that doesn't require Tali but DOES require Legion. (That always seemed off to me.)

> And if they wanted an ammo system, they
>needed to make it work a lot better. Way too much running out of ammo
>in the middle of a fight for no damn reason.

Really? I almost never ran dry. My biggest problem was that I'd have to leave cover in order to scoop up more clips, and that could get you killed.

ME:A has actually apparently decided "fuck it" with regard to ammo. Enemies no longer drop it, but there are ammo crates EVERYWHERE. Anywhere you might, potentially, get into some kind of fight, of any sort? Ammo crate. Are you a mile underground spelunking an alien death vault that hasn't heard the footsteps of a living being for thousands of years? Turn the corner and an ammo crate will be there! Often they're conveniently behind hard cover as well.

It has gotten to the point where I've begun filling up all my guns with modification that reduce spare ammo in favor of some other benefit, because there's no downside to having less spare ammo.

-Merc
Keep Rat


#22, RE: Replaying ME2
Posted by Matrix Dragon on Apr-19-17 at 04:19 PM
In response to message #21
LAST EDITED ON Apr-19-17 AT 04:19 PM (EDT)
 
>I did a "darkest timeline" full Mass Effect playthrough once. By which
>I mean all three games. And in the first game, you can play Shepard as
>an actual bad person, a racist, a human supremacist who
>thinks those Cerberus guys kinda have the right idea and who is fairly
>open that they plan to use their Spectre status to undermine the
>Council from the inside, who refuses to have a turian aboard their
>ship and who leaves Wrex's corpse laying on the beach on Virmire
>without even looking back.

Man, I'm impressed. Every time I try something like that, I make it about an hour in before giving up because man, this asshole's just no fun.

>The pull the choke-chain on that during the second game. They pull it
>HARD. The closest they'll let you come is betraying Samara in favor of
>Morinth, a decision that makes no fucking sense in the context of the
>rest of the game, where even a hardcore Renegade Shepard is required
>to play as a fundamentally decent person. You can't really go native
>into Cerberus.

Never thought about that much, but yeah, I can see the problem. It's right up there with the 'oh, I disagree with Cerberus, but I'll work with them because no reason' angle. Really, the trick with illusion of choice is to make the player feel like the reason they take the plot mandated decisions make sense, and ME2 really does fail from both sides there.

>ME:A has actually apparently decided "fuck it" with regard to ammo.
>Enemies no longer drop it, but there are ammo crates EVERYWHERE.
>Anywhere you might, potentially, get into some kind of fight, of any
>sort? Ammo crate. Are you a mile underground spelunking an alien death
>vault that hasn't heard the footsteps of a living being for thousands
>of years? Turn the corner and an ammo crate will be there! Often
>they're conveniently behind hard cover as well.

At least the game justifies it a little with the Initiatives Omni-tools pointing out materials it can use to manufacture emergency ammo.

Matrix Dragon, J. Random Nutter


#23, RE: Replaying ME2
Posted by Rieverre on Apr-25-17 at 11:56 AM
In response to message #0
>I mean don't get me wrong, it has its moments—maybe one cycle
>out of fifty, that hide-behind-a-box, shoot-some-dudes combat mechanic
>yields some really amusing outcome—but it reminds me that I've
>always been mostly here for the cutscenes.
>

... you might want to try some particular classes if you feel like that. Vanguard is kind of balls to the wall offense with not very much hiding and a lot of getting into peoples' faces (and punching or shooting them off). Assault Sentinel is you being a walking explosion going down the field. Engineer has built in distractions that make offensive plays really fun.

Try stuff out, there's fun to be had in there.

... and yes, the Mako was genuinely better, for the sense of exploration and combat both. At least Andromeda brought that back, even if the Nomad is short a cannon.