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Forum Name: Our Witches at War/Gallian Gothic
Topic ID: 118
#0, OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Gryphon on Dec-16-20 at 05:48 PM
"It'll just be some quick character scenes," I said. "I can do it as a Mini on the Forum," I said.

Forty-seven kilobytes later, here is Episode 21a, filling in one of the time skips in "Sea Trials" with some talky backstory.

Our Fighting Fleet Interstitial: "A Day at Crone Rock"

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#1, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Zemyla on Dec-16-20 at 07:54 PM
In response to message #0
LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-20 AT 07:59 PM (EST)
 
Don't take this the wrong way, but I hope Gryph never learns to fly. At least not here.

First off, "the crazy guy in the jetpack" is who he is, at least here. That's who he was on his first trip, and since then, he's become "the crazy guy in the jetpack with strange metamagical knowledge who's also marrying a vampire", which is a good development broadening his core competencies. But as soon as he can tell gravity to sod off for more than a few seconds at a time, it feels like it's over.

Second, he, perhaps even more so than Corwin, feels associated with the element of earth. He's very much a grounded person, and every form of flight he's done, from Eight-Ball One to Captain of the Challenger, has been the product of mortal ingenuity.

Third, the ability to fly with the Force must be really rare, or else we'd have heard about it more; Jedi and Sith would fly rather than juat taking massive leaps and running on walls. Even the majority of witches rely on Strikers to fly. And I suspect that the majority of Force power in that regard is used to keep his jetpack from killing him the way it killed nearly everyone, man or witch, who tested it before. I mean, probably the only "normal" who could use it in combat is Kozue, because flying is her thing.

Basically, Gryphon works in this story because he's not just a "male witch", and so he can exert influence on the world in a way that's different from the witches. He's making it a place that will be better even when he's not around.

Now I'm not saying you shouldn't have introduced this plot thread, because it can lead to very interesting places, like why are Reimu and Alice and Marisa such prodigies, how this power manifests in lesser ways such as temporary gravity interdiction in other witches, and other plot twists that I can't even think of right now. But I feel like the story will be best served by him trying and failing.

EDIT: I feel like I should talk about the other things in it, too. Reimu and Marisa is an uncommon but not unheard-of pairing, and you pull it off well. Shanghai was just adorable. And it'd definitely be interesting for Marisa to meet Witolda and find out she's not the only witch whose familiar is a physical animal.


#3, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Astynax on Dec-16-20 at 10:03 PM
In response to message #1
>Third, the ability to fly with the Force must be really rare, or else
>we'd have heard about it more; Jedi and Sith would fly rather than
>just taking massive leaps and running on walls.
>

I agree with your overall point, G being unable to take to the sky the way the rest of the main cast can is a nice distinction for the character, but this sub point actually always made me scratch my head even in the source material. Force users routinely lift and move about objects that are much heavier than a person, and often enough yank around other people with the Force, so I don't really understand why they don't turn that telekinesis on themselves to give gravity the finger when it would be handy to do so. Maybe the now deprecated Legends corpus has an explanation somewhere.


-={(Astynax)}=-
"This Space For Rent."


#4, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Gryphon on Dec-16-20 at 10:35 PM
In response to message #3
>Force users routinely lift and move about
>objects that are much heavier than a person, and often enough yank
>around other people with the Force, so I don't really understand why
>they don't turn that telekinesis on themselves to give gravity the
>finger when it would be handy to do so.

I once saw an explanation, and I can't remember precisely where it was—maybe an X-Men comic, maybe the Handbook of the Marvel Universe, possibly the Marvel Super Heroes RPG, but definitely in conjunction with something Marvel Comics-related—that telekinetics have a hard time learning to fly with their power because they usually start out envisioning it as an invisible "arm" of sorts that extends outward and moves things around, and you can't pick yourself up with your own arm.

Some extend that concept into figuring out how to levitate by "pushing" off the ground, but proper Superman-style flying requires a whole different mental picture, and most "traditional" TKs can't get their heads around it. Something similar may be at work in this example.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#7, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Gryphon on Dec-16-20 at 10:46 PM
In response to message #1
>First off, "the crazy guy in the jetpack" is who he is, at least here.
>That's who he was on his first trip, and since then, he's become "the
>crazy guy in the jetpack with strange metamagical knowledge who's also
>marrying a vampire", which is a good development broadening his core
>competencies.

I know where you're going with this, but I'm just going to take a moment and enjoy the notion that marrying a vampire, specifically, links into one of his core competencies. I mean, I guess the case could be made that one of his core competencies is not dying, and that stood him in good stead with Flandre, if nothing else. :)

>But as soon as he can tell gravity to sod off for more
>than a few seconds at a time, it feels like it's over.

That makes sad face, because he's been wondering about what it would be like for years; but, alas, you're probably not wrong.

>Reimu and Marisa is an uncommon but not unheard-of pairing,

Is it really? It seems like half of the doujinshi on e-hentai that show Marisa in a relationship with anyone match her with Reimu, and the other half with Alice. (The error bars are the occasional hookups with Patchy, the fella who runs the secondhand store, and, in one particularly-memorably-baffling instance, Shanghai.*)

>Shanghai was just adorable.

Can't take much credit for that. It's just how Shanghai rolls. :)

>And it'd definitely be
>interesting for Marisa to meet Witolda and find out she's not the only
>witch whose familiar is a physical animal.

It's rare, but not entirely unheard-of; in the scene where Witolda first appeared, Eila mentioned that she knew another witch whose familiar was an actual dog. (A pug, in fact. I think I had in mind making reference to her later as an ancestor of Penelope Creighton-Ward, but never had an opportunity. :)

--G.
* this figure does not include the faceless-dude pornos
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Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#25, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Zemyla on Dec-18-20 at 07:51 PM
In response to message #7
>I know where you're going with this, but I'm just going to take a
>moment and enjoy the notion that marrying a vampire, specifically,
>links into one of his core competencies.

Having thought about it, it actually kinda does. I can't really put a name on it right now, but we see it a lot in the Exile, with for instance Alita and Laura and Tali and Saavik. He never married any of them because (a) he was still kinda married to Kei, (b) he's quite a bit older than all of them combined were, and (c) the vagaries of fate.

Here, the first two aren't a factor and the strings of fate are pulling them together instead of apart (I wonder why that could be?) so he's actually able to marry the dangerous lady he found himself falling in love with. And maybe the other one too.


#26, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Droken on Dec-18-20 at 08:45 PM
In response to message #25
While I definitely agree with the idea that the way this whole situation has played out ties into G's core competencies, I do need to point out that in every one of the Exile cases, point a) does not apply; Kei and G got married after the Exile ended. That being said, the generally-intended (imo) point probably still applies in that he was still harboring strong, deep-seated love for Kei as evidenced by them getting back together and married so (relatively) soon after their rapprochement.

...So I suppose that's just me being pedantic :P


#27, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Gryphon on Dec-18-20 at 09:00 PM
In response to message #26
>While I definitely agree with the idea that the way this whole
>situation has played out ties into G's core competencies, I do need to
>point out that in every one of the Exile cases, point a) does not
>apply; Kei and G got married after the Exile ended.

To be fair, virtually everyone they know forgets that from time to time. I mean, even the likes of Yuri and Zoner sometimes have to be reminded that no, they never actually bothered to get married at any point during the Golden Age of the WDF. It's probably a trick Trivial Pursuit question by 2400.

--G.
funnier still, barring occasional short-lived separations and the Exile itself, they only became explicitly non-exclusive after the wedding
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#33, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by rwpikul on Dec-19-20 at 04:52 PM
In response to message #27
While they never got around to having a ceremony, they were very clearly common law.

#34, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Gryphon on Dec-19-20 at 05:00 PM
In response to message #33
>While they never got around to having a ceremony, they were very
>clearly common law.

Hmm. Now that you mention it, I've never considered whether that's a thing in Zetan law. Given that said code of laws was influenced so heavily by the early Wedge Defenders, who were mostly bohemian college kids, it probably is, so yeah, there's that.

(As it happens, common-law marriage has never existed in the statutes of Maine; it was abolished in Massachusetts Bay Colony, which the Province of Maine was then part of, in 1620, and not revisited when Maine became a separate state in 1820.)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#35, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by rwpikul on Dec-21-20 at 01:14 PM
In response to message #34
>>While they never got around to having a ceremony, they were very
>>clearly common law.
>
>Hmm. Now that you mention it, I've never considered whether that's a
>thing in Zetan law. Given that said code of laws was
>influenced so heavily by the early Wedge Defenders, who were mostly
>bohemian college kids, it probably is, so yeah, there's that.

Most likely it was something they never even thought about and if it exists as a legal status it came in with a 'starter bundle' of laws. So the real question is was it something within "unless contradicted, altered or repealed by later WDF legislation, the laws of the Salusian Empire as of September 1st, 1995 shall be considered the laws of the WDF,"?

(Alter jurisdiction and date to taste, it's your universe after all.)


#36, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Gryphon on Dec-21-20 at 04:32 PM
In response to message #35
>Most likely it was something they never even thought about and if it
>exists as a legal status it came in with a 'starter bundle' of laws.
>So the real question is was it something within "unless contradicted,
>altered or repealed by later WDF legislation, the laws of the Salusian
>Empire as of September 1st, 1995 shall be considered the laws of the
>WDF,"?

Well, the Wedge Defense Force has never been a sovereign entity of its own; it's always technically been a PMC* corporation operating within the jurisprudence of the Republic of Zeta Cygni. On paper, Salusia was just the first customer (and soon replaced by the United Galactica as a whole). So there was probably something in all the contracts similar to that thing in software EULAs about how the whole thing will be administered under the laws of the State of Delaware or wherever.

(It may say something different in UF2, I haven't checked, but keep in mind that when I wrote that I was 18 and knew even less about how the law works than I do now. :)

--G.
* Private Military Contractor, i.e., mercenary
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#28, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Gryphon on Dec-18-20 at 09:09 PM
In response to message #25
>Having thought about it, it actually kinda does. I can't really put a
>name on it right now, but we see it a lot in the Exile, with for
>instance Alita and Laura and Tali and Saavik. He never married any of
>them because (a) he was still kinda married to Kei, (b) he's quite a
>bit older than all of them combined were, and (c) the vagaries of
>fate.

a) has been covered, but on a point of order, he didn't have that kind of relationship with either of the first two; Gally was an amnesiac foundling in his care and Laura was... uh... twelve. If she had stayed with him, things might have gotten more complicated as she grew up, but at the time, no.

>Here, the first two aren't a factor and the strings of fate are
>pulling them together instead of apart (I wonder why that could be?)
>so he's actually able to marry the dangerous lady he found himself
>falling in love with.

Heh, I'm sure if it were put to her, Remilia would deny having a hand in it, but secretly believes that she did. Whether she's right, I prefer not to know. :)

>And maybe the other one too.

Well, presumably not on paper; not in Gallia in 1946, anyway.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#2, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Astynax on Dec-16-20 at 09:58 PM
In response to message #0
>"Warships don't stay in port because it's raining!" she had declared with her
>usual indefatigable good cheer, and out she went, her only concessions to the
>weather a poncho and a pair of galoshes.
>

I would be very surprised if/when Mogami and Miyafuji interact if they don't become nearly instantaneous friends.

>"Does Alice know you're getting so chummy with strangers nowadays, Shanghai?"
>Marisa teased, taking a seat on the next bollard along. Shanghai rolled her
>eyes as if to say she wasn't going to dignify that remark with a reply.
>

That's a lot of personality in a small magical construct. I sort of wonder if the two special dolls aren't Alice's equivalent of the more typical witch's familiar.

>"In training. At the age of five."
>"From birth, more or less. She was just a baby when her parents pledged her to
>the shrine. She never knew them. It's part of the deal. All we know is that her
>mother had to have been a military witch, because they always are."
>Gryphon sat back in his chair, frowning thoughtfully. "Far be it from me to
>criticize an ancient custom," he said, "but that seems a bit..."
>"Barbaric? Tell me about it," said Marisa.
>

This immediately makes me think of old school Jedi BS. Do they still pull that in their UF incarnation?

>"I was looking for a more diplomatic word, but that'll do. So if her
>predecessor died when she was five, who raised her?"
>Marisa shrugged again. "Who knows? Nobody. Wolves."
>

I mean, she does sometimes have the abrasiveness for that to be believable. And she responds to learning who is actually top dog. Which all may be, consciously or not, why Marisa went for that cliche.

>"I mean, I don't know if you get this, but when word gets out into the general
>public that there's a way to avoid the Witch's Fate, there's gonna be an
>almighty shitstorm. People are gonna be lookin' for you with pitchforks and
>torches."
>At his curious look, she went on, "A lot of folks only accept the special
>privileges witches get because they know it won't last. If we're gonna turn
>into ordinary girls when we hit 20, they reckon, what's the harm? Eventually
>we'll lose our magic and have to learn our place to make it through the rest of
>our lives. You go ahead and short-circuit that, and hoooly crap, that's gonna
>piss some people off."
>

I hadn't considered this angle until now. In part because everyone you see in the canon Witches materials, at least the animated ones I've found, seems to nearly revere the witches. On reflection though, most of the non-witches that get screen time are either military personnel or civilians who are somewhere in the process of being saved/defended/aided by witches. I think this mostly holds true for OWaW, with the arguable exception of Gallian civilians, but since the witches only very recently returned their homeland to them I expect they might also have a more favorable than average view of the ladies.

>Although drawn to the lounge, he managed to stay out of the card game, which
>was just as well, since—as he had predicted—Shizuka ran the table, keelhauling
>virtually all comers with a combination of luck, skill, and a flinty deadpan
>that was a direct copy of Mio Sakamoto's samurai game face.
>

This is not a character trait I'd expected to see Shizuka develop. In the Strike Witches movie at least she seems to have almost the opposite of a poker face. I guess repeated, massive shocks to her understanding of the world have had some side effects.

This does also lead me to quickly realizing the witch I'd least like to face at a card table, or any place bluffing was involved, would probably be Gundula Rall (who I don't believe has turned up on OWaW in any meaningful way.)

>"Sure. For about 24 hours," Reimu replied with a laugh. "Next morning she was
>back with—I kid you not—a fish."
>"A fish?"
>"A fish. A skipjack tuna, to be precise."
>

We know it didn't go down this way, but this just makes me picture Marisa walking up and slapping Reimu in the face with the broadside of as large fish.

>She blinked, seeming to realize for the first time how long she'd been talking.
>"Oh wow. Sorry about that. I didn't mean to tell you the entire story of my
>life."
>"That happens sometimes," said Gryphon philosophically. "I'm used to it."
>"Is this a manifestation of your 'Force'?" Reimu asked mischievously.
>"I don't think so. If it is, it's not a conscious one. It's been happening
>since long before I found myself on that path. I think it's just part of my
>dharma."
>

I do like that characters are picking up that G's 'great listener' aura is atypical, rather than acting like it is just the natural order of the world. Particularly Reimu, since Marisa doesn't seem the sort to really be that bothered about keeping her general past secret, but Reimu very much does seem the type to open up slowly and rarely most of the time.


-={(Astynax)}=-
"This Space For Rent."


#5, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Zemyla on Dec-16-20 at 10:35 PM
In response to message #2
>This immediately makes me think of old school Jedi BS. Do they still
>pull that in their UF incarnation?

Not since Utena told them it was crap during The Revolution Will Be Televised. We see the results at some point during The Fulcrum of Fate.


#6, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Astynax on Dec-16-20 at 10:41 PM
In response to message #5
>Not since Utena told them it was crap during The Revolution Will Be
>Televised
. We see the results at some point during The Fulcrum
>of Fate
.
>

Ah, it's been a while since I read either of those. I recall Utena having... a variety of disagreements with Jedi dogma, but I didn't recall them actually listening to her about any of them beyond not attempting to press gang her personally (which would not have ended well for them really.)


-={(Astynax)}=-
"This Space For Rent."


#8, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Gryphon on Dec-16-20 at 11:14 PM
In response to message #2
>That's a lot of personality in a small magical construct. I sort of
>wonder if the two special dolls aren't Alice's equivalent of the more
>typical witch's familiar.

They are! Sort of. Alice's deal is kinda complicated by 1940s witch standards. Canonically she's a yōkai mage from another plane of existence (sorta the Touhou universe's equivalent of Hell, I think--or actually one of the two, since the traditional "flaming underground world" version also exists there), which is not the case here, but she's not your average girl-who-manifested-magic-powers type.

>This immediately makes me think of old school Jedi BS. Do they still
>pull that in their UF incarnation?

They do not, as of 2410. At least, the "formal" Jedi Order doesn't. Unaffiliated Jedi Masters who haven't come in from the cold might still prefer to do business that way, although if they do, they do not have the Order's protection from the consequences of the fact that that kind of thing is usually illegal.

>>"I was looking for a more diplomatic word, but that'll do. So if her
>>predecessor died when she was five, who raised her?"
>>Marisa shrugged again. "Who knows? Nobody. Wolves."
>>
>I mean, she does sometimes have the abrasiveness for that to be
>believable. And she responds to learning who is actually top dog.
>Which all may be, consciously or not, why Marisa went for that cliche.

It could be argued that the Imperial Fusō Army in the 1930s was worse than wolves, although they mostly left her to her own devices rather than "raising" her as such, apart from the occasional lecture in passing from a senior officer (and we saw in the story how effective those were). The general idea is that the Hakurei is special and will be fine figuring it out for herself for the most part. I'm not saying that's necessarily right, but that's how they view it.

Of course, they didn't know about Marisa. :)

>>"You go ahead and short-circuit that, and hoooly crap, that's gonna
>>piss some people off."
>>
>
>I hadn't considered this angle until now. In part because everyone you
>see in the canon Witches materials, at least the animated ones
>I've found, seems to nearly revere the witches.

That's true, but--especially toward the end of the first series--there's always an undercurrent there. It shows in the way non-witch officers act when it looks like there won't be any need for their services any longer. As soon as it even looks like the WARLOCK is going to work, there's an instant turn against the witches by the brass. All at once, they go from being treated as valued and privileged military assets to irrelevant annoyances. That, to me, says a lot about how sincere that valuation really was in a lot of cases.

Mind you, the fact that it all went horribly wrong and the 501st saved the day in spite of their superiors may have counted for something, but it speaks of a societal attitude that isn't going to change overnight. (Viz. the fact that the same Allied high command turned around and pulled almost the same stunt at the climax of the Venezia campaign.) Of course, the writers of the actual show may have had none of this subtext actually in mind! It's hard to say, given how all-over-the-radar the tone of the show is. Maybe it's all in my head! But then, so is OWaW. :)

Anyway, it's also entirely possible that Marisa is overestimating how many people will take that attitude. She's almost certainly right that some wil--probably quite a few--but I think she's being pessimistic if she envisions it being a general reaction across the board.

>This is not a character trait I'd expected to see Shizuka develop. In
>the Strike Witches movie at least she seems to have almost the
>opposite of a poker face. I guess repeated, massive shocks to her
>understanding of the world have had some side effects.

Indeed, as recently as the early episodes of OWaW Season 1, she was still the FNG, with all that that entails. But, you know. You grow. :)

>This does also lead me to quickly realizing the witch I'd least like
>to face at a card table, or any place bluffing was involved, would
>probably be Gundula Rall (who I don't believe has turned up on
>OWaW in any meaningful way.)

She hasn't, though I'm familiar with her in passing from artbooks and the Strike Witches wiki.

>We know it didn't go down this way, but this just makes me picture
>Marisa walking up and slapping Reimu in the face with the broadside of
>as large fish.

https://youtu.be/T8XeDvKqI4E

>I do like that characters are picking up that G's 'great listener'
>aura is atypical, rather than acting like it is just the natural order
>of the world. Particularly Reimu, since Marisa doesn't seem the sort
>to really be that bothered about keeping her general past secret, but
>Reimu very much does seem the type to open up slowly and rarely most
>of the time.

True, although she's not so much secretive as usually taciturn. One peculiar thing about Reimu is that, either despite or because of her childhood's bizarre mixture of privilege and neglect, she doesn't think she's interesting. Why would anyone want to hear about her? She's just a girl who runs a poky little shrine in the arsehole of nowhere that no one ever visits, and she hardly ever leaves. OK, when she does leave it's generally to engage terrifying supernatural monsters in single combat, which she prosecutes with complete ruthlessness and somewhat terrifying supernatural powers of her own, but that's not as exciting as it looks in the newsreels.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#9, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by drakensis on Dec-17-20 at 04:40 AM
In response to message #8
>>>"You go ahead and short-circuit that, and hoooly crap, that's gonna
>>>piss some people off."
>>>
>>
>>I hadn't considered this angle until now. In part because everyone you
>>see in the canon Witches materials, at least the animated ones
>>I've found, seems to nearly revere the witches.
>
>That's true, but--especially toward the end of the first
>series--there's always an undercurrent there. It shows in the way
>non-witch officers act when it looks like there won't be any need for
>their services any longer. As soon as it even looks like the
>WARLOCK is going to work, there's an instant turn against the
>witches by the brass. All at once, they go from being treated as
>valued and privileged military assets to irrelevant annoyances. That,
>to me, says a lot about how sincere that valuation really was in a lot
>of cases.
>
>Mind you, the fact that it all went horribly wrong and the 501st saved
>the day in spite of their superiors may have counted for something,
>but it speaks of a societal attitude that isn't going to change
>overnight. (Viz. the fact that the same Allied high command turned
>around and pulled almost the same stunt at the climax of the Venezia
>campaign.) Of course, the writers of the actual show may have had
>none of this subtext actually in mind! It's hard to say, given how
>all-over-the-radar the tone of the show is. Maybe it's all in my
>head! But then, so is OWaW. :)
>
>Anyway, it's also entirely possible that Marisa is overestimating how
>many people will take that attitude. She's almost certainly right
>that some wil--probably quite a few--but I think she's being
>pessimistic if she envisions it being a general reaction across the
>board.

There's also the issue that a number of the ranking witches are very young as a result of them not really being able to stay ranking, so there's a lot of turn around.

But now that won't happen, and while that'll surge witch numbers, it also means slower career progression once that settles out. Squadron leaders and so forth won't lose their magic after a year or two. I suspect some younger witches who expected to be leaders within, if not necessarily of, their squadrons will suddenly find that this isn't naturally the case.

Which may not be a bad thing, but I suspect a few may find their plans for the future if not derailed then at least slowed down.

"I was thinking I'd be squadron leader by 18, retired by 20 and married by 21. But now I'll be in service _forever_!?"

And other teenage drama.


#10, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Gryphon on Dec-17-20 at 09:18 AM
In response to message #9
>There's also the issue that a number of the ranking witches are very
>young as a result of them not really being able to stay ranking, so
>there's a lot of turn around.
>
>But now that won't happen, and while that'll surge witch numbers, it
>also means slower career progression once that settles out.

In practice, that depends on a couple of things. One is how much longer the war lasts. Progression is always slower in peacetime armies than during times of active war, particularly world war, partially because said armies tend to be a lot smaller, and partially because there aren't as many opportunities for people to distinguish themselves when nothing much is going on.

The other is how widely the Method is adopted. At the moment it's very much like a craft movement, starting to get some attention, but nowhere near hitting the mainstream.

>Squadron leaders and so forth won't lose their magic after a year or two.

Only if they decide to stay in, which it's entirely possible many of them will not choose to do. Because:

>"I was thinking I'd be squadron leader by 18, retired by 20 and
>married by 21. But now I'll be in service _forever_!?"

Right now, that last part is entirely voluntary. Under the existing regulations, a witch who doesn't want to stay in harness indefinitely can just... not do anything, and "nature" (by which read the progressively disabling effect of chronic depletion, which is really what's happening here) will take its course.

The worry, and it's a real one, is that once the brass gets its collective head around what's going on, there'll be a swing from being suspicious of and resistant to the idea of the Method if they've heard about it at all, to pushing to make it mandatory. Because that's not what it's supposed to be about. It's meant to be about choice. A way for the witches who feel like Mio and Wilma did to rewrite their fates, while those who would just as soon get out (and they do exist, we just don't see them much because the 501st is an elite outfit with high morale) still have the option to do so.

This is a can of worms which doesn't need to be opened right now, while the phenomenon is still obscure, but with the likes of the Emperor of Fusō taking a personal interest, G is aware that it may only be a matter of time until it has to be addressed.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#12, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Astynax on Dec-17-20 at 09:37 AM
In response to message #10
>Right now, that last part is entirely voluntary. Under the existing
>regulations, a witch who doesn't want to stay in harness indefinitely
>can just... not do anything, and "nature" (by which read the
>progressively disabling effect of chronic depletion, which is really
>what's happening here) will take its course.
>
>The worry, and it's a real one, is that once the brass gets its
>collective head around what's going on, there'll be a swing from being
>suspicious of and resistant to the idea of the Method if they've heard
>about it at all, to pushing to make it mandatory. Because that's not
>what it's supposed to be about. It's meant to be about choice. A way
>for the witches who feel like Mio and Wilma did to rewrite their
>fates, while those who would just as soon get out (and they do exist,
>we just don't see them much because the 501st is an elite outfit with
>high morale) still have the option to do so.
>
>This is a can of worms which doesn't need to be opened right now,
>while the phenomenon is still obscure, but with the likes of the
>Emperor of Fusō taking a personal interest, G is aware that it
>may only be a matter of time until it has to be addressed.
>

Seems to me that the solution to that is already built in, since G has been clear since day one that the Method may not work for everyone, and a pretty key component to a witch touching the Force seems to be said witch really wanting to do so (which is not explicitly stated in the existing documentation, but should quickly enough prove the 'not work for everyone' caveat,) so witches who want to retire should hopefully not have too hard of a time doing so. Plus a side effect to many of the best and most motivated witches being able to lengthen their careers would be lowering the pressure to recruit new blood somewhat, at least once they get past skeleton crew levels.


-={(Astynax)}=-
"This Space For Rent."


#13, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Gryphon on Dec-17-20 at 09:48 AM
In response to message #12
>Plus a side
>effect to many of the best and most motivated witches being able to
>lengthen their careers would be lowering the pressure to recruit new
>blood somewhat, at least once they get past skeleton crew levels.

Yes, I would expect (and G hopes) that one positive knock-on effect will be the average age of combat witches trending upward, at which point the Allies may be able to, you know... stop conscripting children. As noted in this piece, he has largely accustomed himself to the youth of the combatants in this society, but there are still times when he questions the righteousness of involving the really, really young ones.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#15, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Peter Eng on Dec-17-20 at 01:01 PM
In response to message #10
>
>The other is how widely the Method is adopted. At the moment it's
>very much like a craft movement, starting to get some attention, but
>nowhere near hitting the mainstream.
>

Apropos of nothing, I imagined a witchcraft hipster. ("I was using the Method before it got popular.")

Peter Eng
--
Insert humorous comment here.


#24, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Pasha on Dec-18-20 at 06:54 PM
In response to message #15

>Apropos of nothing, I imagined a witchcraft hipster. ("I was using
>the Method before it got popular.")

Does this make UFGryph the Method Man?

--
-Pasha
"Don't change the subject"
"Too slow, already did."


#23, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Pasha on Dec-18-20 at 06:49 PM
In response to message #10

>In practice, that depends on a couple of things. One is how much
>longer the war lasts. Progression is always slower in peacetime
>armies than during times of active war, particularly world war,
>partially because said armies tend to be a lot smaller, and partially
>because there aren't as many opportunities for people to distinguish
>themselves when nothing much is going on.

Also less chance of your superiors dying/being injured beyond ability to serve, and that slot *needing* to get filled.

--
-Pasha ("To diseases, and bloody wars with the French!")
"Don't change the subject"
"Too slow, already did."


#16, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Peter Eng on Dec-17-20 at 01:06 PM
In response to message #9
>
>There's also the issue that a number of the ranking witches are very
>young as a result of them not really being able to stay ranking, so
>there's a lot of turn around.
>
>But now that won't happen, and while that'll surge witch numbers, it
>also means slower career progression once that settles out. Squadron
>leaders and so forth won't lose their magic after a year or two. I
>suspect some younger witches who expected to be leaders within, if not
>necessarily of, their squadrons will suddenly find that this isn't
>naturally the case.
>

There's also, "I don't have to go fight the Neuroi? Great! I always wanted to (something else that involves magic) anyway."

Peter Eng
--
"It's an improvement on spell cards. I can store a hundred cards in a rose quartz crystal the size of a pencil."


#11, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Astynax on Dec-17-20 at 09:25 AM
In response to message #8
>They are! Sort of. Alice's deal is kinda complicated by 1940s witch
>standards. Canonically she's a yōkai mage from another
>plane of existence (sorta the Touhou universe's equivalent of Hell, I
>think--or actually one of the two, since the traditional "flaming
>underground world" version also exists there), which is not the case
>here, but she's not your average girl-who-manifested-magic-powers
>type.
>

"not your average girl-who-manifested-magic-powers" seems to be a common thread for the three investigating witches. Though I guess Marisa is less investigating and more "where Reimu goes, so do I, and hey this is interesting anyway."

>It could be argued that the Imperial Fusō Army in the 1930s was
>worse than wolves, although they mostly left her to her own devices
>rather than "raising" her as such, apart from the occasional lecture
>in passing from a senior officer (and we saw in the story how
>effective those were). The general idea is that the Hakurei is
>special and will be fine figuring it out for herself for the most
>part. I'm not saying that's necessarily right, but that's how
>they view it.
>

I expect the army mostly expected the current recognized Hakurei to do the raising of the next generation and left her to it, and simply failed to have a contingency plan for one being KIA at such a young age (which given the danger inherent in the position is a pretty glaring oversight on their part.)

>That's true, but--especially toward the end of the first
>series--there's always an undercurrent there. It shows in the way
>non-witch officers act when it looks like there won't be any need for
>their services any longer. As soon as it even looks like the
>WARLOCK is going to work, there's an instant turn against the
>witches by the brass. All at once, they go from being treated as
>valued and privileged military assets to irrelevant annoyances. That,
>to me, says a lot about how sincere that valuation really was in a lot
>of cases.
>

I think the lack of any meaningful interaction with civilians in the first season left me with the impression that the 501st's issues with the brass were more military infighting due to wounded egos than anything more general, but it certainly makes sense that such attitudes, while not universal, could be more general.

>Mind you, the fact that it all went horribly wrong and the 501st saved
>the day in spite of their superiors may have counted for something,
>but it speaks of a societal attitude that isn't going to change
>overnight. (Viz. the fact that the same Allied high command turned
>around and pulled almost the same stunt at the climax of the Venezia
>campaign.) Of course, the writers of the actual show may have had
>none of this subtext actually in mind! It's hard to say, given how
>all-over-the-radar the tone of the show is. Maybe it's all in my
>head! But then, so is OWaW. :)
>

I got the impression that the brass was being mostly the typical "unhelpful higher ups who aren't in the thick of things and so don't get it" during that, but I can see how that could be read differently. At least they learned not to disband the 501st the moment they thought their new superweapon was online this time. And they were somewhat correct that the hive in question required more firepower than the typical witch could bring to bear.

>She hasn't, though I'm familiar with her in passing from artbooks and
>the Strike Witches wiki.
>

She came to mind for having the iron self control to eat food so terrible it could be considered a war crime with a totally neutral expression, only commenting "It's foul" when asked. The Brave Witches spinoff anime is... lesser than the main series (production values are sometimes noticeably lower, fanservice is much less of a focus, though that might be a positive really, and the humor to drama balance is a bit different) but not a waste of time to check out if you've got a Crunchyroll account (should be viewable with even the freebie account.) If nothing else, the 502nd has both Nikka Katajainen the bad luck witch and Naoe Kanno the witch who punches Neuroi to death.

>True, although she's not so much secretive as usually taciturn. One
>peculiar thing about Reimu is that, either despite or because of her
>childhood's bizarre mixture of privilege and neglect, she doesn't
>think she's interesting. Why would anyone want to hear about her?
>She's just a girl who runs a poky little shrine in the arsehole of
>nowhere that no one ever visits, and she hardly ever leaves. OK, when
>she does leave it's generally to engage terrifying supernatural
>monsters in single combat, which she prosecutes with complete
>ruthlessness and somewhat terrifying supernatural powers of her own,
>but that's not as exciting as it looks in the newsreels.
>

That just makes me want to give the girl a hug, which is especially impressive since my first reaction to her was an urge to toss her into the sea. Semi-related I now find myself having some confusion mentally 'casting' her voice, since initially I slotted her as a standard 'haughty anime girl' but now that seems less fitting.


-={(Astynax)}=-
"This Space For Rent."


#14, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Gryphon on Dec-17-20 at 09:55 AM
In response to message #11
>>The Brave
>Witches
spinoff anime is... lesser than the main series
>(production values are sometimes noticeably lower, fanservice is much
>less of a focus, though that might be a positive really, and the humor
>to drama balance is a bit different) but not a waste of time to check
>out if you've got a Crunchyroll account (should be viewable with even
>the freebie account.)

Heck, I bought the Blu-Ray set when it came out, I just haven't gotten around to actually watching it yet. :)

>That just makes me want to give the girl a hug, which is especially
>impressive since my first reaction to her was an urge to toss her into
>the sea. Semi-related I now find myself having some confusion mentally
>'casting' her voice, since initially I slotted her as a standard
>'haughty anime girl' but now that seems less fitting.

She probably came across that way (albeit more ruthless and less patronizing than usual) in her initial appearance, but she was fronting like hell at that point. Under normal circumstances she's more the "serious-minded, but basically normal" type. Kinda like Mio Akiyama--when she doesn't have her game face on, she seems more serious than she is because of the unusual exuberance of the company she keeps (Marisa in Reimu's case, Ritsu in Mio's), but she's quite capable of light moments.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#21, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Astynax on Dec-18-20 at 00:55 AM
In response to message #14
>She probably came across that way (albeit more ruthless and less
>patronizing than usual) in her initial appearance, but she was
>fronting like hell at that point. Under normal circumstances she's
>more the "serious-minded, but basically normal" type. Kinda like Mio
>Akiyama--when she doesn't have her game face on, she seems more
>serious than she is because of the unusual exuberance of the company
>she keeps (Marisa in Reimu's case, Ritsu in Mio's), but she's quite
>capable of light moments.
>

Your comparison has me picturing Reimu bonking Marisa on the head when she gets annoyed with her. Pretty sure her sense of dignity wouldn't allow her to actually do so most of the time, but I bet she wants to often enough.


-={(Astynax)}=-
"This Space For Rent."


#22, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Gryphon on Dec-18-20 at 04:08 PM
In response to message #21
LAST EDITED ON Dec-18-20 AT 04:09 PM (EST)
 
>Your comparison has me picturing Reimu bonking Marisa on the head when
>she gets annoyed with her. Pretty sure her sense of dignity wouldn't
>allow her to actually do so most of the time, but I bet she wants to
>often enough.

She leans toward administering the occasional casual corrective whack with her gohei, which she can deniably cover as am attempt at purifying the evil spirit that is obviously responsible for Marisa's behavior. It's sort of her equivalent of Kaname's fan. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#37, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by ImpulsiveAlexia on Dec-24-20 at 01:52 AM
In response to message #8
>That's true, but--especially toward the end of the first
>series--there's always an undercurrent there. It shows in the way
>non-witch officers act when it looks like there won't be any need for
>their services any longer. As soon as it even looks like the
>WARLOCK is going to work, there's an instant turn against the
>witches by the brass. All at once, they go from being treated as
>valued and privileged military assets to irrelevant annoyances. That,
>to me, says a lot about how sincere that valuation really was in a lot
>of cases.

I remember doing some scratching-my-head over this sort of thing when reading one of the other Strike Witches-related threads around here, maybe a year ago. I haven't actually watched the anime (still haven't, though I've got dvds and really should), but it has struck me as strange that something very similar to real-world sexism seems to exist in the setting.

If witches have always been around, that doesn't necessarily mean it wouldn't exist, but it seems like there ought to be some differences. Especially since in the absence of a world war, more witches would probably retain their powers well into middle or even old age.

It's possible they just wanted to show some military branch infighting - certainly a real thing - but I'm not sure about the way it sounds like it played out.

-IA.

(received information not interpretable)


#17, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Star Ranger4 on Dec-17-20 at 02:35 PM
In response to message #0
I did have to kind of giggle at the way Marisa just snuggled up with Reimu like always... Though I did have to read twice to get that she basically helped G make a Reimu sandwich, so not quite a Fuso version of the something or other order first class, the double snuggle of Hartmans.

Most of my other thoughts and comments have already been covered, right down to the just plain DAAAAAWWWWWWW!!!!! bits; one of which is G naturally encouraging Shanghai to be out of the rain since she didn't just deliver the cocoa and leave.


#18, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Gryphon on Dec-17-20 at 03:24 PM
In response to message #17
>I did have to kind of giggle at the way Marisa just snuggled up with
>Reimu like always... Though I did have to read twice to get that she
>basically helped G make a Reimu sandwich, so not quite a Fuso version
>of the something or other order first class, the double snuggle of
>Hartmans.

The grades of decoration for Karlsland multiple cuddles are as follows. Ed. note: Some of these grades are purely theoretical.

Iron Cross, second class - Erica Hartmann and Gertrud Barkhorn.

Iron Cross, first class - Erica Hartmann and Ursula Hartmann.

Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross - Both of the Hartmann twins and Trude. Unlikely, but possible.

Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves - All of the above, plus Minna-Dietlinde Wilcke. Vanishingly unlikely ever to happen, but a man can dream.

Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords - As above, add Christiane Barkhorn. Never going to happen.

Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords, and Diamonds - As above, add Hannelore von Hammer. Really not going to happen. Would also probably constitute lèse majesté against the Kaiser at this point.

Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Gold Oak Leaves, Swords, and Diamonds - As above, add Waltrud Krupinski. Would cause a singularity and destroy the universe.

The Fusōnese equivalent of the Iron Cross, first class would be the Order of the Sacred Treasure, fifth class (out of six).

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#19, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by MuninsFire on Dec-17-20 at 07:17 PM
In response to message #18
> Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords, and Diamonds - As
> above, add Hannelore von Hammer. Really not going to happen. Would also probably
> constitute lèse majesté against the Kaiser at this point.

Bah. Lèse majesté is the -best- majesty ;-)


#20, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Astynax on Dec-18-20 at 00:53 AM
In response to message #18
>Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves - All of the
>above, plus Minna-Dietlinde Wilcke. Vanishingly unlikely ever to
>happen, but a man can dream.
>

This seems like the sort of situation that could arise on a cold weather mission gone sideways, but then it'd be distinctly less enjoyable for all.

>Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Gold Oak Leaves, Swords, and Diamonds
> - As above, add Waltrud Krupinski. Would cause a
>singularity and destroy the universe.
>

Poor Krupinski, she always gets a hard time, when all she wants is love, or something like it anyway.


-={(Astynax)}=-
"Just don't let her cook."


#40, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Zemyla on Feb-06-21 at 02:54 PM
In response to message #18
The Neuroi don't have military decorations that we know of, and even if they did, none of the ones we've seen have earned any since they don't last more than a single episode against the 501st. But is there a name for sharing a bed with Flandre, Eugenie, and Neuroi-chan?

#41, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Gryphon on Feb-06-21 at 03:30 PM
In response to message #40
>The Neuroi don't have military decorations that we know of, and even
>if they did, none of the ones we've seen have earned any since they
>don't last more than a single episode against the 501st. But is there
>a name for sharing a bed with Flandre, Eugenie, and Neuroi-chan?

Raserei Hero's Medal

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#42, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Star Ranger4 on Feb-06-21 at 04:04 PM
In response to message #41
>
>Raserei Hero's
>Medal
>
>--G.

*Falls over laughing*


#29, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Star Ranger4 on Dec-19-20 at 01:21 AM
In response to message #17
LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-20 AT 12:30 PM (EST)
 
I'd try and glare at Munisfire and Asyntax, but I'm to busy suffering o2 deprivation from laughing so hard

Though I am now wondering what its called if/when Mina and Mio decide to cuddle up with G together? Cause, it seems like the 'sacred treasure' order would involve Hattori, Mio, Yoshika... Hmm. Reimu? who else?


#30, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Astynax on Dec-19-20 at 03:52 PM
In response to message #29
LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-20 AT 03:59 PM (EST)
 
>I'd try and glare at Munisfire and Asyntax, but I'm to busy suffering
>o2 deprivation from laughing so hard
>
>Though I am now wondering what its called if/when Mina and Mio decide
>to cuddle up with G together? Cause, it seems like the 'sacred
>treasure' order would involve Hattori, Mio, Yoshika... Hmm. Reimu?
>who else?

No one we've seen or heard of 'on screen' as far as I recall, but Katajainen and Krupinski are around so you can infer the rest of the 502nd probably are as well, and they have 4 more Fusōnese witches to add to the possible combinations. Though I expect most of them would react to the general concept a bit like Shizuka did at first.


-={(Astynax)}=-
"Spellcheck doesn't help with names..."


#31, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Gryphon on Dec-19-20 at 03:56 PM
In response to message #30
>No one we've seen or heard of 'on screen' as far as I recall, but
>Katajainen and Krupinski are around so you can infer the rest of the
>502nd probably are as well, and they have 4 more Fusōnese witches to
>add to the possible combinations.

There's also Junko Takei over at the 504th in Romagna, whom he did meet once back in '43, but doesn't really know. Old pal of Mio's, though.

>Though I expect most of them would
>react to the general concept a bit like Skizuka did at first.

I know it's a typo, but now I'm enjoying the image of Lucchini tagging her with that nickname when the gang goes to have some winter R&R in the Helvetian Alps.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#32, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Gryphon on Dec-19-20 at 04:18 PM
In response to message #29
LAST EDITED ON Dec-25-20 AT 06:46 PM (EST)
 
>Though I am now wondering what its called if/when Mina and Mio decide
>to cuddle up with G together?

Not every single permutation has a medal associated with it, but that would presumably be a Karlslandic one, since Minna has the higher rank. Probably the Karlsland Cross in Gold, which falls between the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross and the Iron Cross first class in precedence.

--G.
Not to be confused with the Mannerheim Cross, which would be Eila and Nipa.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#38, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by SneakyPete on Dec-25-20 at 06:33 PM
In response to message #32
Would that decoration be unofficially referred to as the Mannerheim Steamroller?

#39, RE: OWaW 21a: A Day at Crone Rock
Posted by Gryphon on Dec-25-20 at 06:46 PM
In response to message #38
>Would that decoration be unofficially referred to as the Mannerheim
>Steamroller?

No, that's only if Aurora Juutilainen (Eila's elder sister the tank witch) is involved.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.