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Forum Name: Undocumented Features General
Topic ID: 154
#0, The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by Berrik_NeueZiel on Oct-16-01 at 10:39 AM
Are the Manticore vessels (ie 3-km long super dreadnoughts) different than they were in the books? I'd think a wall of battle using those ships could even give an SDF class vessel a run for it's money. And how do grasers (standard energy armament for Manticorian vessels) work? They seem to be able to penetrate shields in the book series, but since UF uses many different technologies, I'm not sure how they stack up against other vessels, IE Starfleet/GENOM/WDF.

#1, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by Sinapus on Oct-16-01 at 10:57 AM
In response to message #0
>Are the Manticore vessels (ie 3-km long super dreadnoughts) different
>than they were in the books? I'd think a wall of battle using those
>ships could even give an SDF class vessel a run for it's money. And
>how do grasers (standard energy armament for Manticorian vessels)
>work? They seem to be able to penetrate shields in the book series,
>but since UF uses many different technologies, I'm not sure how they
>stack up against other vessels, IE Starfleet/GENOM/WDF.

You might want to go read the "Two Questions" thread.

In short, the ships from Honor Harrington are not going to show up in UF. If any ship names show up, they'll probably be UF variants based on the variety of techs available in that universe. So no impeller wedges, etc.

Patrick Chester
"...could you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"


#2, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by drakensisthered on Oct-16-01 at 06:23 PM
In response to message #0
>Are the Manticore vessels (ie 3-km long super dreadnoughts) different
>than they were in the books? I'd think a wall of battle using those
>ships could even give an SDF class vessel a run for it's money.

Not really - they're not maneuverable enough and they (mostly) can't shield fore or aft. Even a third rate UF navy has ships that could get into those zones and just rip the ships apart.


>And how do grasers (standard energy armament for Manticorian vessels)
>work? They seem to be able to penetrate shields in the book series,
>but since UF uses many different technologies, I'm not sure how they
>stack up against other vessels, IE Starfleet/GENOM/WDF.

Grasers are to Gamma Radiation what Lasers are to Light. Basically more powerful energy weapons but not by a huge amount. Presumably above a certain level, Grasers are more efficent than Lasers so Graser = big energy gun and Laser = small energy gun in the Honor Harrington books. Baen's forum probably has some threads discussing this sort of thing.

drakensisthered

So I simply said one of the great trite truths: "There is generally more than one side to a story." - Corwin, Roger Zelazny's 'Courts of Chaos'


#3, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by Gryphon on Oct-16-01 at 06:47 PM
In response to message #0
LAST EDITED ON Oct-16-01 AT 06:48 PM (EDT)

>Are the Manticore vessels (ie 3-km long super dreadnoughts) different
>than they were in the books?

This has been covered elsewhere (short version: yes), but looking at that length stat, I'd just like to put down a couple of the UF universe's starship superlatives for the record.

The largest warship put to space by a modern civilization is the GENOM Corporation Military Arm Navy's Executioner class of Star Destroyers, at a round eight kilometers in length. (Trust GENOM to use the metric system instead of the galactic standard. :) The Executioner class (sometimes erroneously referred to as the Dreadnaught class or Super class) lacks a Class Omega weapon and has the Star Destroyer line's usual deficiencies in shielding, but is equipped with such numerous turbolaser batteries and so heavily armed that it doesn't really matter much in practical terms. Also, as we have seen in Twilight, for a ship that size, it's remarkably fast and maneuverable.

It's worth pointing out, though, that the Executioner class is a bit of an aberration. It's more than three times bigger than the next largest, the WDF's Megaroad class of Super Dimensional Fortresses, and over seven times the size of its GENOM predecessor, the Imperial class. The only real reason it's that big is the fact that Largo was out of his freaking mind. Even the Imperial class is really bigger than it needs to be. In the long run, for flexible fleet operations, the 900-to-1800-foot size range fielded by the Federation Starfleet, Earthforce, the bulk of the WDF Navy, and... well, just about everybody else... seems to be about optimum. Anything bigger isn't necessarily overkill, but it is somewhat limited in operational scope. One wouldn't, for instance, send an Executioner-class Star Destroyer on a Starfleet-standard five-year exploration-and-patrol mission, unless of course you had money to burn and were just trying to make a point. :)

The most powerful warship in the service of a modern civilization is debatable, but the most likely candidates are Wandering Child and Challenger. Discounting the somewhat unbalancing factor of overtechnology, you're back to the Star Destroyer again, or possibly the Gamilon flagship Destiny's Fist.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


#4, RE: MegaRoad Class
Posted by TRB on Oct-18-01 at 04:04 AM
In response to message #3
Awww. Megaroad? Urotsukidoji Class was just so much more wickedly twisted a class designation. ^__^

TRB

"There are jokes to be made here, but -I'm- not going near them."


#5, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by phongn on Oct-20-01 at 00:27 AM
In response to message #3
Gah...you just had to use the WEG size of the Super Star Destroyer, didn't you?

#6, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by Gryphon on Oct-20-01 at 00:29 AM
In response to message #5
>Gah...you just had to use the WEG size of the Super Star Destroyer,
>didn't you?

"preferred canon" arguments exit to the left, bucko.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


#7, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by phongn on Oct-20-01 at 02:48 PM
In response to message #6
:)

It's your universe, and it's hardly my place to tell you what you want the SSD to be in length. Just that the 8km length is somewhat irritating to me - why couldn't WEG do a bit of research?


#8, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by Redneck on Oct-20-01 at 04:05 PM
In response to message #7
>:)
>
>It's your universe, and it's hardly my place to tell you what you want
>the SSD to be in length. Just that the 8km length is somewhat
>irritating to me - why couldn't WEG do a bit of research?

What source do you have says differently?

Redneck

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope


#9, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by Sneaky Pete on Oct-20-01 at 04:53 PM
In response to message #8
>>:)
>>
>>It's your universe, and it's hardly my place to tell you what you want
>>the SSD to be in length. Just that the 8km length is somewhat
>>irritating to me - why couldn't WEG do a bit of research?
>
>What source do you have says differently?
>
>Redneck

http://theforce.net/swtc/

Curtis Saxon's Star Wars Technical Commmentaries: more specifically, http://theforce.net/swtc/dagger.html#executor Puts the ship at 17.6 kilometers based on evidence from the movies. (I won't try to reproduce the evidence here; I'd just end up cuting-and-pasting his pages.)

Duane


#10, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by Gryphon on Oct-20-01 at 05:03 PM
In response to message #9
>Curtis Saxon's Star Wars Technical Commmentaries: more specifically,
>http://theforce.net/swtc/dagger.html#executor Puts the ship at 17.6
>kilometers based on evidence from the movies.

Oh, well, that simplifies this argument, if I were willing to have it in the first place, considerably. 17 kilometers is too fucking big. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


#11, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by ejheckathorn on Oct-20-01 at 06:53 PM
In response to message #10
>Oh, well, that simplifies this argument, if I were willing to have it
>in the first place, considerably. 17 kilometers is too fucking big.
>:)

Well, I guess that puts the kibosh on having Dahak from David Weber's Mutineer's Moon novels, then.

If 17 kilometers is too big, three thousand kilometers is definitely too big.

;)

Eric J. Heckathorn
ericjh@stargate.net


#12, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by Chris Redfield on Oct-20-01 at 10:25 PM
In response to message #11
>Well, I guess that puts the kibosh on having Dahak from David Weber's
>Mutineer's Moon novels, then.
>
>If 17 kilometers is too big, three thousand kilometers is
>definitely too big.

Why would anyone need a ship the size of a large country?

--------------------------------------
God Bless America
Chicken Biscuit $.99
--McDonald's sign in Raleigh, NC


#15, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet - Spoilers for "Mutineer's Moon"
Posted by ejheckathorn on Oct-20-01 at 10:45 PM
In response to message #12
>Why would anyone need a ship the size of a large country?

First, it's actually the size of the moon. In fact - no joke - it's actually disguised as our moon at the beginning of the first book.

Second, because they have Really Nasty Enemies(tm).

Eric J. Heckathorn
ericjh@stargate.net


#17, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet - Spoilers for "Mutineer's Moon"
Posted by Nathan on Oct-21-01 at 08:16 PM
In response to message #15
>>Why would anyone need a ship the size of a large country?
>
>First, it's actually the size of the moon. In fact - no joke - it's
>actually disguised as our moon at the beginning of the first book.

Well, like Dahak (kinda) says, how else to you hide something that big?

>Second, because they have Really Nasty Enemies(tm).

Genocidal fanatics with a fleet of (IIRC) ~30,000,000 twenty kilometer long warships would count as RNEs, yeah.

That universe is fun just 'cause its so utterly Over The Top.

Blessed be.
Nathan Baxter


#16, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by Pangaro on Oct-21-01 at 07:32 PM
In response to message #12
>>If 17 kilometers is too big, three thousand kilometers is
>>definitely too big.
>
>Why would anyone need a ship the size of a large country?

Why would anyone need a battle station the size of a Calss-M planet??

Pangaro,RFBG...
Member of the Narn Bat Squad


#18, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by Griever on Oct-22-01 at 04:51 AM
In response to message #16
>>>If 17 kilometers is too big, three thousand kilometers is
>>>definitely too big.
>>
>>Why would anyone need a ship the size of a large country?
>
>Why would anyone need a battle station the size of a Calss-M planet??
>

Because there's a little rule in anime (and some movies ,
and henceforth some fanfics) that states
-THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS OVERKILL-
And apart from that , it could be something you'd
ask a certain Freud .

-Griever
well , that was another sensless message
brought to you by the Griever broadcast system
<white noise>



#20, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by Matrix Dragon on Oct-22-01 at 06:41 PM
In response to message #18
>-THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS OVERKILL-

If you don't believe him, check DC Comics over the past few months. How many times have they destroyed, or nearly destroyed the multiverse?

Matrix Dragon


#19, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by remande on Oct-22-01 at 08:58 AM
In response to message #16
>Why would anyone need a battle station the size of a Calss-M planet??
>
>Pangaro,RFBG...

Why, to destroy a class-M planet, of course...

--rR


#21, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by drakensisthered on Oct-23-01 at 02:39 PM
In response to message #12
>>Well, I guess that puts the kibosh on having Dahak from David Weber's
>>Mutineer's Moon novels, then.
>>
>>If 17 kilometers is too big, three thousand kilometers is
>>definitely too big.
>
>Why would anyone need a ship the size of a large country?

Their state of the art FTL drive WAS the size of a large country. And their power source of choice (the core tap) required a similarly sized installation - when they put one on Earth and kept sweating 'cause if the jury-rigged controls went it'd go 2nd impact on them. Plus their defensive perimeter was so big that one ship had to cover a big area on it's own - so it had to be capable of handling almost anything.


drakensisthered

So I simply said one of the great trite truths: "There is generally more than one side to a story." - Corwin, Roger Zelazny's 'Courts of Chaos'


#13, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by Mister Fnord on Oct-20-01 at 10:29 PM
In response to message #11
>
>Well, I guess that puts the kibosh on having Dahak from David Weber's
>Mutineer's Moon novels, then.
>
>If 17 kilometers is too big, three thousand kilometers is
>definitely too big.

Hell man, what do ya think the AT&T is? Aside from the worst bloody pun in the entire EPU canon. ;)


Mr. Fnord, checking the Moon for rivets.
--
The Jihad to Destroy Barney the Dinosaur
http://www.jihad.net/


#14, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by Laudre on Oct-20-01 at 10:34 PM
In response to message #13
>>Well, I guess that puts the kibosh on having Dahak from David Weber's
>>Mutineer's Moon novels, then.
>>
>>If 17 kilometers is too big, three thousand kilometers is
>>definitely too big.
>
>Hell man, what do ya think the AT&T is? Aside from the worst bloody
>pun in the entire EPU canon. ;)

Hmmm... wouldn't it qualify as a nested pun, or at least a double reference?

After all, it's the AT&T because the AT&T symbol looks like the Death Star; in fact, the Jargon File notes that the AT&T symbol is thusly referred to as the Death Star.

(Though I'm sure this also applies to AT&T's pre-breakup business practices.)

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process


#22, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by Croaker on Oct-25-01 at 04:16 PM
In response to message #13
>>
>>Well, I guess that puts the kibosh on having Dahak from David Weber's
>>Mutineer's Moon novels, then.
>>
>>If 17 kilometers is too big, three thousand kilometers is
>>definitely too big.
>
>Hell man, what do ya think the AT&T is? Aside from the worst bloody
>pun in the entire EPU canon. ;)
>

In the Fifth Imperium's naval lexicon, "underarmed, slow,
primitive, poorly defended, incompetantly commanded,
unmaneuverable, undergunned..."


>
>Mr. Fnord, checking the Moon for rivets.
>--
>The Jihad to Destroy Barney the Dinosaur
>http://www.jihad.net/


--
"Eat hot blazing photonic pulse fire, you alien invading human-abducting saucer-alien bastards!" -- Captain of EAS Bellerophon, firing on a Vree cruiser.


#23, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by Nathan on Oct-25-01 at 04:42 PM
In response to message #22
>>Hell man, what do ya think the AT&T is? Aside from the worst bloody
>>pun in the entire EPU canon. ;)
>>
>
>In the Fifth Imperium's naval lexicon, "underarmed, slow,
>primitive, poorly defended, incompetantly commanded,
>unmaneuverable, undergunned..."

"In other words- meat."

OTOH, nothing in that universe can compete with its particular version of FTL.

Blessed be.
Nathan Baxter


#24, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by drakensisthered on Oct-25-01 at 04:48 PM
In response to message #22
>>>
>>>Well, I guess that puts the kibosh on having Dahak from David Weber's
>>>Mutineer's Moon novels, then.
>>>
>>>If 17 kilometers is too big, three thousand kilometers is
>>>definitely too big.
>>
>>Hell man, what do ya think the AT&T is? Aside from the worst bloody
>>pun in the entire EPU canon. ;)
>>
>
>In the Fifth Imperium's naval lexicon, "underarmed, slow,
>primitive, poorly defended, incompetantly commanded,
>unmaneuverable, undergunned..."

Be fair - I don't think they had an one shot planet-busting weapon until the third book and that was a missile. (Until then it was a matter of tractoring a really big rock for a major kinetic strike - which takes months) The super laser would have impressed them.


drakensisthered

So I simply said one of the great trite truths: "There is generally more than one side to a story." - Corwin, Roger Zelazny's 'Courts of Chaos'


#25, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by Croaker on Oct-29-01 at 03:01 PM
In response to message #24
>>>>
>>>>Well, I guess that puts the kibosh on having Dahak from David Weber's
>>>>Mutineer's Moon novels, then.
>>>>
>>>>If 17 kilometers is too big, three thousand kilometers is
>>>>definitely too big.
>>>
>>>Hell man, what do ya think the AT&T is? Aside from the worst bloody
>>>pun in the entire EPU canon. ;)
>>>
>>
>>In the Fifth Imperium's naval lexicon, "underarmed, slow,
>>primitive, poorly defended, incompetantly commanded,
>>unmaneuverable, undergunned..."
>
>Be fair - I don't think they had an one shot planet-busting weapon
>until the third book and that was a missile. (Until then it was a
>matter of tractoring a really big rock for a major kinetic strike -
>which takes months) The super laser would have impressed them.
>

Hmm, not really. They did have planetbuster capability - even Dahak
could do it with an appropriately-targeted set of hyper missiles.

The superlaser as a concept, they'd find interesting, having the
entire DeathStar/AT&T built around that weapon and no other real
anti-capital-unit weaponry (that we've ever seen in use, anyway)
would leave them rather less than impressed.

>
>drakensisthered
>
>So I simply said one of the great trite truths: "There is generally
>more than one side to a story." - Corwin, Roger Zelazny's 'Courts of
>Chaos'


--
"Eat hot blazing photonic pulse fire, you alien invading human-abducting saucer-alien bastards!" -- Captain of EAS Bellerophon, firing on a Vree cruiser.


#26, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by Nathan on Oct-29-01 at 03:50 PM
In response to message #25
>>Be fair - I don't think they had an one shot planet-busting weapon
>>until the third book and that was a missile. (Until then it was a
>>matter of tractoring a really big rock for a major kinetic strike -
>>which takes months) The super laser would have impressed them.
>>
>
>Hmm, not really. They did have planetbuster capability - even Dahak
>could do it with an appropriately-targeted set of hyper missiles.

He states it outright in that first conversation with Colin- "Essentially, Commander, this vessel could vaporize your planet."

BTW, given that it's Dahak talking, we can probably take this statement literally... And the superlaser left a _lot_ of debris behind.

>The superlaser as a concept, they'd find interesting, having the
>entire DeathStar/AT&T built around that weapon and no other real
>anti-capital-unit weaponry (that we've ever seen in use, anyway)
>would leave them rather less than impressed.

Nn-nn. I might be misremembering dialogue, but I think that it was actually said in dialogue that the reason the Rebel snubfighters were able to get so close was that _all_ of the DS's defenses were set up to bust capships. Of course, those selfsame defenses would be utterly pathetic in the face of beam weapons that can yank matter out of the sidereal universe or rip atoms to bits, but you can't have everything. ^_^

Blessed be.
Nathan Baxter
(Would really like to see those books made into anime, someday. That'd rock.)


#31, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by phongn on Oct-30-01 at 10:06 PM
In response to message #26
>>>Be fair - I don't think they had an one shot planet-busting weapon
>>>until the third book and that was a missile. (Until then it was a
>>>matter of tractoring a really big rock for a major kinetic strike -
>>>which takes months) The super laser would have impressed them.
>>>
>>
>>Hmm, not really. They did have planetbuster capability - even Dahak
>>could do it with an appropriately-targeted set of hyper missiles.
>
>He states it outright in that first conversation with Colin-
>"Essentially, Commander, this vessel could vaporize your planet."
>
>BTW, given that it's Dahak talking, we can probably take this
>statement literally... And the superlaser left a _lot_ of debris
>behind.
>
Wandering in again...

Actually, it's been determined that vaporization takes less energy that the superlaser's effect (force the entire mass of the planet to escape velocity). If anyone wants I'll look for the two energy numbers (only have the latter at the moment).


#27, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by drakensisthered on Oct-29-01 at 06:28 PM
In response to message #25
>>Be fair - I don't think they had an one shot planet-busting weapon
>>until the third book and that was a missile. (Until then it was a
>>matter of tractoring a really big rock for a major kinetic strike -
>>which takes months) The super laser would have impressed them.
>>
>
>Hmm, not really. They did have planetbuster capability - even Dahak
>could do it with an appropriately-targeted set of hyper missiles.
>
Not with one shot though. It would probably take a number of sequenced volleys of missiles to achieve a similar result. It's a bit pointless though - only a fraction of the firepower could easily depopulate a planet - destroying the whole thing is overkill.


drakensisthered

So I simply said one of the great trite truths: "There is generally more than one side to a story." - Corwin, Roger Zelazny's 'Courts of Chaos'


#28, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by remande on Oct-29-01 at 09:33 PM
In response to message #27
>Not with one shot though. It would probably take a number of sequenced
>volleys of missiles to achieve a similar result. It's a bit pointless
>though - only a fraction of the firepower could easily depopulate a
>planet - destroying the whole thing is overkill.
>
>
>drakensisthered

Overkill is good, because intimidation is nine tenths of military force. Eradicating all life on a planet is one thing. Reducing it to an asteroid belt is another. Reducing it to vapors is a third. The more damage you can do, the more likely your potential enemies will say "Don't mess with him, and the less work you actually have to do.

Corrolary: The first duty of any military force is to Play the Shades. The second job is to beat somebody up if Playing the Shades doesn't work.

--rR


#29, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by drakensisthered on Oct-30-01 at 06:58 PM
In response to message #28
>Overkill is good, because intimidation is nine tenths of military
>force. Eradicating all life on a planet is one thing. Reducing it to
>an asteroid belt is another. Reducing it to vapors is a third. The
>more damage you can do, the more likely your potential enemies will
>say "Don't mess with him, and the less work you actually have
>to do.
>
>Corrolary: The first duty of any military force is to Play the Shades.
> The second job is to beat somebody up if Playing the Shades doesn't
>work.

That's a good military philosophy. I prefer aomething neater myself because it tends to demolish less of what I'm trying to get my hands on in the first place. But to quote Anastasius Focht, 'if you don't use all your ammo you can always give it back later'

drakensisthered

So I simply said one of the great trite truths: "There is generally more than one side to a story." - Corwin, Roger Zelazny's 'Courts of Chaos'


#30, RE: The Star Kingdom of Manticore's fleet
Posted by Redneck on Oct-30-01 at 08:48 PM
In response to message #28

>Corrolary: The first duty of any military force is to Play the Shades.
> The second job is to beat somebody up if Playing the Shades doesn't
>work.

Hm, disagreed. My view of history is that the value of deterrence is highly overrated. WWI and the Pacific War of WWII were due in significant part to military threat- that is, various powers went to war to neutralize a military power. Furthermore, deterrence only works when rational thought is present on both sides... something which, in Earth history, is extremely rare.

Redneck

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope