I was actually rather surprised at how comparatively little screen time D.J. Croft himself got compared to some of the other characters. I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm happy with the structure of the story as is. But it hit me on a second reading that he actually doesn't come fully "onscreen" until about halfway through the movie, if not even a little bit more.

But it's interesting how his impact on the characters from the very beginning is undeniable. He's not what the universe revolves around, but he is an important fulcrom in many of the relationships of the main characters that we follow. One of the most enjoyable things to watch was how the various characters find ways to cope without him around after he made himself so integral to their lives in the regular series.

As of the beginning of the 3rd season, everybody was still enough broken in their various ways that losing DJ started to pull them all apart. To the point where things were just starting to look a little like the last third of the actual NGE story. But not quite. And his return helped patch things.

But as of the timeframe of the movie, everyone is more or less at a point where they can function on their own. And do find their own paths. As a capstone to the regular series, this was very fullfilling. NXE is truly an ensemble character effort, and anyone who thinks that it's being dominated by an SI character just isn't getting it. And by this point, they'd have to be willfully not getting it.

-Logan

	I would enter your sleep if I could, and guard you there, and slay the thing that hounds you as I would if it had the courage to face me in fair daylight. But I cannot come in unless you dream of me. --Prince Lir, The Last Unicorn

>NXE is truly an ensemble character effort, and anyone who
>thinks that it's being dominated by an SI character just isn't
>getting it. And by this point, they'd have to be
>willfully not getting it.

Technically speaking, I suppose, the term for DJ is 'Mary Sue' or the male equivalent, because he's not actually any real person.

(Now, Truss is a SI character, because Truss really exists. Thus we see the difference.)

--
Geoff Depew - Darth Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Dark Lord of Sith Tech Support, Pedantic Bastage.
"I find your lack of clue disturbing."

No, no. A "Mary Sue" is the original term for a self insert character. Actually it's a derogatory term. Because it refers to the very worst abuses of SI characters. You never never want to refer to a character as a "Mary Sue" unless it's meant as an insult.

-Logan

	I would enter your sleep if I could, and guard you there, and slay the thing that hounds you as I would if it had the courage to face me in fair daylight. But I cannot come in unless you dream of me. --Prince Lir, The Last Unicorn

>No, no. A "Mary Sue" is the original term for a self insert character.
>Actually it's a derogatory term. Because it refers to the very worst
>abuses of SI characters. You never never want to refer to a
>character as a "Mary Sue" unless it's meant as an insult.

No, "Mary Sue" is a more general term than SI. To take the extreme example, Marissa Picard is definately a Mary Sue, even though Steven Ratliff isn't a nine year old girl.

First-season DJ (especially before we started seeing his flaws) definitely had Mary-Sue-ish characteristics -- the brilliant, handsome teenager who's better than everyone else at everything, and all the appropriate original characters of the opposite sex fall in love with him. But, just as UF proved that in the hands of a good enough writer, self-insertion can work, NXE proved the same things about Mary Sue.

>(Now, Truss is a SI character, because Truss really exists. Thus we
>see the difference.)

Technically, no. In order to be a Self-Insert character, one must insert -himself- into the story.

Gryph wrote me into Season 1... I didn't join the writing team (and never had any -plans- to join the writing team) until Season 2, when I was struck with a way to use Shinji in NXE. (Gryph's response: "That sounds good... you get to write it." ;)

With the exception of, I think, two minor scenes and the occasional dialogue tweak (to make it sound like something I might actually say), I never wrote myself in NXE. :)

	John Trussell Tertiary Battle Muse Eyrie Productions, Unlimited It's all just one mistake after another.

>>(Now, Truss is a SI character, because Truss really exists. Thus we
>>see the difference.)
>
>Technically, no. In order to be a Self-Insert character, one must
>insert -himself- into the story.
>
>Gryph wrote me into Season 1... I didn't join the writing team (and
>never had any -plans- to join the writing team) until Season 2, when I
>was struck with a way to use Shinji in NXE. (Gryph's response: "That
>sounds good... you get to write it." ;)

Oh, okay. Then... hell, what's the term for a character based on a real person who gets stuck in a story by friends? Hell, I dunno anymore.

--
Geoff Depew - Darth Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Dark Lord of Sith Tech Support.
"I find your lack of clue disturbing."

>Oh, okay. Then... hell, what's the term for a character based on a
>real person who gets stuck in a story by friends? Hell, I dunno
>anymore.

"Self-insert by proxy", I think.

--Firefly

>Oh, okay. Then... hell, what's the term for a character based on a
>real person who gets stuck in a story by friends? Hell, I dunno
>anymore.

Tuckerization, after SF writer Wilson "Bob" Tucker. Google knows more.

>hell, what's the term for a character based on a
>real person who gets stuck in a story by friends?

"Cameo". Or maybe "tribute".

-- Bob
-------------------
Bill Gates is a white Persian cat and a monocle away from becoming another James Bond villain: "No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to upgrade." -- Dennis Miller

>Oh, okay. Then... hell, what's the term for a character based on a
>real person who gets stuck in a story by friends? Hell, I dunno
>anymore.

Blackmail material?

Mistral

>Oh, okay. Then... hell, what's the term for a character based on a
>real person who gets stuck in a story by friends? Hell, I dunno
>anymore.

Victim?

>>Oh, okay. Then... hell, what's the term for a character based on a
>>real person who gets stuck in a story by friends? Hell, I dunno
>>anymore.
>
>Victim?

No, that's only if David Weber or John Ringo are writing the story. :)

>Oh, okay. Then... hell, what's the term for a character based on a
>real person who gets stuck in a story by friends? Hell, I dunno
>anymore.

Redshirting, in various books published by Baen. (Even if the character survives more than one novel.)

>I was struck with a way to use Shinji in NXE. (Gryph's response: "That
>sounds good... you get to write it." ;)

This is the old Livingston Enterprises volunteering method: "Why don't we have <x>?" "Because you haven't done it yet." "... dammit."

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>Technically speaking, I suppose, the term for DJ is 'Mary Sue' or the
>male equivalent, because he's not actually any real person.

Geoff, no. "Mary Sue" was the ostensible Original Self Insert, back in the days when Trek fanfiction was mimeographed and handed around.

-- Bob
-------------------
Bill Gates is a white Persian cat and a monocle away from becoming another James Bond villain: "No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to upgrade." -- Dennis Miller

>>Technically speaking, I suppose, the term for DJ is 'Mary Sue' or the
>>male equivalent, because he's not actually any real person.
>
>Geoff, no. "Mary Sue" was the ostensible Original Self Insert, back
>in the days when Trek fanfiction was mimeographed and handed around.

OK, all. Terminological debates rooted in Trek fandom are probably not appropriate.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

LAST EDITED ON 05-21-03 AT 00:08 AM (EDT)
 
Edited for spelling

Lemme be the one to put the last nail in the coffin here...
Oh, and Gryphon, apologies in advance for the Trek references. I'm quoting here.

"Mary Sue" Story (fan/fanzine): A story in a fanzine that deals with the adventures of a perfect heroine, who is obviously the author as she would like to be(almost all such stories are written by women). The term derives from a story submitted to the fanzine Menagerie. The editor, Paula Smith, could not in good conscience print the story, but proceded to write and print a parady, using the name Mary Sue for the heroine.
Mary Sue is the youngest, smartest, most beautiful ensign on board the USS Enterprise. She outwits Klingons, seduces Mr. Spock, reinvents the Warp Drive, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. In short, Mary Sue has become the symbol of the perfect heroine, and when she appears in profesional fiction, editors recognize her and insist that she be given a few flaws to make her more human, whether she is or not. (There have been a few Vulcan Mary Sue characters, too.) Mary Sue has a male counterpart, "Marty Su," who is just as obnoxious.

-Futurespeak - A Fan's Guide to The Language of Science Fiction by Roberta Rogow

Hope this helps.

-NeoRaven

Marty Su?

Oh, the things a punster could do with that. But I won't, because I value my skin.

Anyhow...Given a large enough timeframe for the character to act in...any character will eventually become a Mary Sue/Marty Su. People will get better and better at what they do as time goes on. Give them enough time, and they'll become an expert at everything from needlepoint to advanced quantum mechanics.

I don't think it's entirely fair to judge a character 'in stasis'...look at FI Gryphon and you think 'Blatant self-insertion where he's a near god, GARBAGE!' but if you look at how the character was at the very start...and remember that there's more than four hundred years between them...

>Mary Sue has a male counterpart, "Marty Su," who is just as obnoxious.

But I thought Hammer's last name was "Rose." :)

Ebony the Black Dragon
Senior Editor, Living Room Games
http://www.lrgames.com

>>Mary Sue has a male counterpart, "Marty Su," who is just as obnoxious.
>
>But I thought Hammer's last name was "Rose." :)
>

oh Heaven....

*palms face* HEHEHE