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SEARCH COMPLETE: APRIL 12, 2410

New Avalon Aviation F-86F-1000 Cosmo Sabre

When the engineers at the newly founded New Avalon Aviation Company sat down to design their first combat aerospacecraft in 2407, they looked to the past for inspiration. Their primary references were the space-capable variants of then-current jet aircraft that made up Earth's first generation of post-Contact starfighter fleets in the early 21st century and the Wedge Defense Force Armory Aerospace Division's "Retrotech" series of aerospacecraft of the 2380s. Like the Retrotech fighters, their inaugural product is based on an earlier aircraft that was obsolete by Earth's 1999 First Contact.

Where the F-86F-1000 Cosmo Sabre differs from its Retrotech cousins, though, is in its engineering DNA. The Retrotech craft were new designs from the ground up, designed by modern engineers with a mandate to make their creations as close to visually indistinguishable as possible from their historical models. The Cosmo Sabre's engineers began with the original design documents for the F-86F Sabre, a United States Air Force frontline jet fighter circa 1954, and adapted the vehicle to modern aerospace technologies, just as the creators of such vintage starfighters as the SF-14E Space Tomcat and SF-18H Cosmo Hornet had in the years immediately following Contact.

In many ways, their job was easier. They were starting with an older design, but the technologies they had to work with, both in terms of integration into the craft and on the design and manufacturing side, were 400 years more advanced and sophisticated. The end result, designated (somewhat with tongue in cheek) the "Block 1000" variant of the F-86F rather than an entirely new subspecies, is a swift and powerful retro-style starfighter that may yet give such Retrotech stalwarts as the F-8Z Super Crusader a run for their money.

Designation: F-86F-1000 Cosmo Sabre
WDF Procurement Number: FJ-1K
Pilot nicknames: Grand
Manufacturer: New Avalon Aviation
Entered service: Still in testing

Power system: Thermodyne TA-76C power converter/fusion reactor
Propulsion system: General Nucleonics J4700-GN-75 axial fusion turbine (rated at 520 KTU)
Speed rating: 105 MGLT
Flight control system: New Avalon Aviation NT-R0 ("Nitro®") dynamic flight control/avionics package
Maneuver rating: 93 DPF
Navigation: Industrial Automaton Model R8F navigation computer system
FTL: NAA CD-1T ("Cordite®") motivator drive unit (hyperdrive)
Drive rating: 0.80
Shields: Thermodyne DF-74 fore/aft projection deflector system
Shield rating: 45 SBD
Armor: NAA "Composition C17®" proprietary alloy hull
Armor rating: 67 RU

Description: All-condition aerospace superiority fighter
Crew: 1

Mass, fully loaded (standard armament): 15,500 lb.
Mass, empty: 11,200 lb.
Reaction mass capacity: 3,000 lb.

DIMENSIONS
Length: 37'1"
Wingspan: 37'
Height: 14'1"

ARMAMENTS
Fixed armaments: 6x Taim & Bak KX5 blaster cannon
Expendable armaments: 2x WDF Armory Beehive Mini-Missile Pods (18x WDF Armory GPM-150Z General Hosement mini-missile each)
2x WDF Armory AIM-91A Reaper II Medium Range Aerospace Intercept Missile*
4x WDF Armory twin standard-arms pylons**

* Specialized hardpoints that do not support other WDF standard expendable arms.
** Outboard pylons are plumbed to support supplementary reaction mass tankage in addition to armament.

ANALYSIS

The Cosmo Sabre is still in early testing, with two of the three YF-86F-1000 prototypes in the hands of WDF test pilots at Zukowsky Flight Test Center on Muroc III and the third undergoing further in-house testing at New Avalon Aviation's own flight test facility on Mathews Memorial Spaceport near the city of New Avalon. Since most of the aerospacecraft's combat testing is not yet complete, it would be premature to offer a full analysis of its capabilities here.

However, based on its published performance statistics (with the caveat that they have not all been proven accurate at this time), the F-86F-1000 appears to stack up well against its primary competition, the WDF Armory's own F-8Z Super Crusader. The Cosmo Sabre is slightly slower but a bit more maneuverable than its larger Retrotech cousin; its shields are marginally weaker but its armor somewhat stronger. Both are capable of carrying 10 standard WDF missiles and have potent fixed armaments; the Super Crusader's four 55mm Hi-X cannon pack a stiffer punch than the Cosmo Sabre's six standard starfighter blasters, but the blasters have greater range and are not dependent on finite ammunition supplies. The Cosmo Sabre's mini-missile pods are not expected to be useful in fighter-to-fighter combat, which is both vehicles' specialty, but they do permit it to take on a small surface/installation attack role, something which requires the F-8Z to switch out some of its main missile armament and possibly reduce its fighter-to-fighter effectiveness.

Interestingly, the designers at New Avalon Aviation chose to base their new craft on the Air Force variant of the original jet aircraft, rather than the FJ Fury naval variant. As such, the Cosmo Sabre is not equipped to be deployed from conventional spacecraft carriers such as those fielded by the WDF and Royal Salusian Navy, lacking arresting equipment and folding wings. Though at first blush this may seem like a shortcoming on the Cosmo Sabre's part, it may just prove to be a stroke of genius on the designers' part, enabling the F-86F-1000 to coexist with the F-8Z in a broader context. Fitted with a fast hyperdrive and the capability to ship extra reaction mass tankage, the F-86F-1000 is well-suited to be deployed from forward fixed bases and in a star system defense/interceptor role, tasks for which the Super Crusader is ill-matched.

FUTURE PLANS

If the Cosmo Sabre is adopted by the WDF, RSN, and/or other Avalon-friendly forces, New Avalon Aviation executives have announced that they will follow it up with a space-capable variant of another famous North American product, the XB-70 Valkyrie strategic bomber. The B-70B, if produced, will be renamed Nemesis (after the Greek goddess of divine retribution) to honor Stonewell Bellcom's trademark the word Valkyrie as applied to combat aerospacecraft. It is envisioned as an eventual replacement for the SB-17 Astrofortress in the long-range strategic strike bomber role.

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Huh... Anything in particular that seems to be bringing up this Retro jag, so to speak?

>Huh... Anything in particular that seems to be bringing up this Retro
>jag, so to speak?

When today sucks and the outlook for tomorrow looks worse, there's always yesterday.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

>>Huh... Anything in particular that seems to be bringing up this Retro
>>jag, so to speak?
>
>When today sucks and the outlook for tomorrow looks worse, there's
>always yesterday.
>
oh.

LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-08 AT 12:59 PM (EST)
 
>>>Huh... Anything in particular that seems to be bringing up this Retro
>>>jag, so to speak?
>>
>>When today sucks and the outlook for tomorrow looks worse, there's
>>always yesterday.
>>
>oh.

In this particular case, there's also a less philosophical and more practical reason for the file: The Cosmo Sabre has a cameo of sorts in the next issue of Rogue Squadron: Colonial Forces Special Flight Test Division, as does the updated F-8ZZ ("Super Crusader Double Zed"). Both of them are in testing at Zukowsky FTC at the time of the current Rogue Squadron storyline.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

>In this particular case, there's also a less philosophical and more
>practical reason for the file: The Cosmo Sabre has a cameo of sorts in
>the next issue of Rogue Squadron: Colonial Forces Special Flight
>Test Division, as does the updated F-8ZZ ("Super Crusader Double
>Zed"). Both of them are in testing at Zukowsky FTC at the time of the
>current Rogue Squadron storyline.
>
AHA!!!!!

Just the sort of cool tie ins that make UF such a living, breathing world Gryph!

;:) :) :)

This just makes me smile each time I re-read it.

From "The Cats of MiG Alley," Monday June 29, 1953

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,889762,00.html

It was, as the briefing officer said, "a day worth drooling over," a fine day for hunting MIGs. With the howl of a tornado, four F-86 Sabre jets roared up from the Korean airfield and headed north for MIG Alley. For half an hour they climbed steadily, timing their ascent to conserve fuel and reach the Yalu at 45,000 ft. At that altitude, everything was silvery and incredibly bright; above, the sky was dark and greyish.

The air was so thin that the pilots had to take in their oxygen under pressure to get it into their lungs. Working 90-odd controls with the light-fingered touch of master watchmakers, the pilots glanced now & then at the dozens of dials and flashing instrument lights that might warn of trouble, while they searched the sky for MIGs. Suddenly, from far below, came a glint of silver.

"Ten MIGs at 2,000 feet," crackled a Sabre jet pilot's voice on the VHF radio....

---------------------

I guess a UF-edition of this would make for a nice update to the old flightline sign, "Through these gates pass the best damn fighter pilots in the galaxy" :)

>From "The Cats of MiG Alley," Monday June 29, 1953
>
>http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,889762,00.html
>
having read the linked article, I strongly recommend it to everyone else reading this thread. It offers a great insight not just into the airframe the cosmo Sabre is based on, but the people who made it and the company who made it great.

Niiiiice.

Just out of curiosity, was there any particular reason why you went for the Sabre rather than the Super Sabre?

>Niiiiice.
>
>Just out of curiosity, was there any particular reason why you went
>for the Sabre rather than the Super Sabre?

Because the F-86 was an unmatched, era-defining icon and the F-100 was, at the end of the day, a fuel-hungry pig that the USAF eventually swept under the rug? There's at least one mention in Yeager's autobiography about the F-100, and I'm quoting loosely here, being such an unstable gun platform that he could hit a B-36 from wingtip to wingtip in a single pull of the trigger.

Don't get me wrong, I love how the F-100 *looks,* but there's several other Century fighters that would probably come before the Hun in the Retrotech line. :)

	Chad Collier Smirking Kilrathi The Captain of the Gravy Train

Been a long time since I read Col. Yeager's autobiography; I'm going to have to find a copy. Thanks for the info.

>>Niiiiice.
>>
>>Just out of curiosity, was there any particular reason why you went
>>for the Sabre rather than the Super Sabre?
>
>Because the F-86 was an unmatched, era-defining icon and the F-100
>was, at the end of the day, a fuel-hungry pig that the USAF eventually
>swept under the rug?

There was also its unfortunate habit of viciously killing innocent pilots who were simply trying to land the goddamned thing. :)

But yeah, basically this. The Sabre had a brilliant career which included the kind of war service that permanently identifies a war (Korea) with one of the tools that helped fight it. Almost ten thousand of them were made. It was the first American aircraft of the Cold War to go head-to-head with its Soviet opposite number of the day and come out on top (the F-80, while also a fine aircraft and one I have a fondness for, not having quite been able to close the deal).

The Super Sabre, on the other hand, while not exactly a failure, never really worked as a fighter. Oh, sure, it set a bunch of aeronautical records and was a generally impressive aircraft, but it never developed a reputation as a successful air-to-air combatant. All its operational success in Vietnam came as a tactical bomber, in which role it was superseded by a more suitable successor (the F-105 Thunderchief, which would be my personal choice for "Retrotech entry from the Century Series").

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

LAST EDITED ON Dec-03-08 AT 07:46 PM (EST)
 
I know it's not century series, but a Retrotech F-4 Phantom II would be awesome. Best go go with the E model for the baseline, unless you want a Wild Weasel bird like the G

Despite all its flaws, it's tough to find a bird as iconic as old Double Ugly, next to the Sabre jet of course.

Seeing as how it's still flying in many countries (including the US as a target drone the QF-4), it will be a sad day when the last of them stops flying...

"A good plan executed now is better than a perfect plan next week" - Gen George S. Patton, Jr.

>I know it's not century series, but a Retrotech F-4 Phantom II would
>be awesome. Best go go with the E model for the baseline, unless you
>want a Wild Weasel bird like the G

Actually, the F-4 was very briefly the F-110 when the Air Force was considering adopting it, also just as briefly adopting the name Spectre. /pedant :)

I'm with Gryph, though, about the F-105. The Phantom would just be duplicating effort, at least for that particular design crew. Of course, there's a lot of people out there making aerospace fighters in the galaxy...

	Chad Collier Smirking Kilrathi The Captain of the Gravy Train

>I'm with Gryph, though, about the F-105. The Phantom would just be
>duplicating effort, at least for that particular design crew. Of
>course, there's a lot of people out there making aerospace fighters in
>the galaxy...

Though, to really make the gag worth it, they'd need to fit it out with retrotech Sparrows that suck just as bad as the real things did. ;)

	Chad Collier Smirking Kilrathi The Captain of the Gravy Train

>I know it's not century series, but a Retrotech F-4 Phantom II would
>be awesome. Best go go with the E model for the baseline, unless you
>want a Wild Weasel bird like the G
>
>Despite all its flaws, it's tough to find a bird as iconic as old
>Double Ugly, next to the Sabre jet of course.
>
Indeed. The Phantom was to Vietnam what the Sabre was to Korea, to follow along the lines that G mentioned. And there is something about the F-4's lines that also keeps speaking to me, personally.

Heck, the one ship I used to love flying the most back when I had like most of the Janes combat flight sims, was their 'F-4 upgraded with modern electronics' models. about the only thing I think might be cooler would be if they'd upgraded the engines too. Just think what a phantom airframe might be capable of if they dropped in a couple of surplus f16 engines?

>Despite all its flaws, it's tough to find a bird as iconic as old
>Double Ugly, next to the Sabre jet of course.

If you are talking fighters, I'd agree.

But I'll always have a soft spot for the Warthog.

>But I'll always have a soft spot for the Warthog.

That wouldn't really be much of a challenge, though. I mean, as an atmospheric ground attack/close air support platform, all the A-10 will ever need is continually updated electronics. It's an apex predator in that role, like a shark. It never needs to evolve again. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

>>But I'll always have a soft spot for the Warthog.
>
>That wouldn't really be much of a challenge, though. I mean, as an
>atmospheric ground attack/close air support platform, all the A-10
>will ever need is continually updated electronics. It's an apex
>predator in that role, like a shark. It never needs to evolve again.
>:)

Another fully evolved airframe seems to be the B-52. Sometimes you start to think that the Air Force is going to have to start producing them again, because nothing does the job so well.

>>>But I'll always have a soft spot for the Warthog.
>>
>>That wouldn't really be much of a challenge, though. I mean, as an
>>atmospheric ground attack/close air support platform, all the A-10
>>will ever need is continually updated electronics. It's an apex
>>predator in that role, like a shark. It never needs to evolve again.
>>:)
>
>Another fully evolved airframe seems to be the B-52. Sometimes you
>start to think that the Air Force is going to have to start producing
>them again, because nothing does the job so well.

True. And there have been some authors that propose that this Old Dog still has some tricks up its sleeve, though I shant go further into that having stepped on that landmine in my ignorance back when I was a newbie to the board.

>>But I'll always have a soft spot for the Warthog.
>
>That wouldn't really be much of a challenge, though. I mean, as an
>atmospheric ground attack/close air support platform, all the A-10
>will ever need is continually updated electronics. It's an apex
>predator in that role, like a shark. It never needs to evolve again.
>:)
>

Well, some say it needs new engines, but "the bros" have been arguing for that for about a...decade now...I wouldn't bet on this one coming to pass unless they just outright build "Son of A-10" -

But if we're talking about airplanes with an "A" prefix, MOGSY like the A-1E/J Skyraider - aka "Spad" very, very much (speaking of an iconic Vietnam bird.... I recommend the book "My Secret War" by Richard Drury...if you can FIND a copy)

...and, another stalwart rescued from the boneyard...the A-26K "Counter-Invader" - I guess what I dig about our military aviation is our continued ability to modify and resurrect just about, well, ANYTHING.

The "Thud" - G model F-105, was the two-seat Wild Weasel build of the jet, if I'm not mistaken (what can I say, I like SEAD)

Another crasy job - they used the 100 and later the F-4 as a "Fast FAC" with either the famous "Misty" or "Nail" call signs...

http://sgspires.tripod.com/Fast_FACs/fast_facs.html - talk about a white-knuckle job...

"The figures I heard at the time was that you were 25-times more likely to be shot down as a Fast FAC than doing a regular job..." L.D. Johnston

>Well, some say it needs new engines, but "the bros" have been arguing
>for that for about a...decade now...I wouldn't bet on this one coming
>to pass unless they just outright build "Son of A-10" -
>

Well, they finally got around to refitting and making the A-10C, but this is mostly just electronics. Considering the AF was talking about getting rid of the A-10 a couple of years ago, though, its a good sign. (I think this had something to do with the Army threatening to recover decommissioned A-10s and getting back into the fixed wing business if the AF didn't do something to keep them around).

LAST EDITED ON Dec-05-08 AT 06:02 AM (EST)
 
Of course the USAF tried to get rid of the A-10; that's because they hate the (nonetheless vital) "ground attack/close air support" mission. It's not sexy enough. Maybe we should revive the Army Air Corps, so the zoomies can stop bitching, get their feet out of the mud, and go back to playing at being knights of the air - at least until UAVs finally make them obsolete.

(Sorry, I'll clean that up. Just haven't been impressed by the alternating streams of macho bullshit and petulant whining coming out of that service lately.)

A-10 pilots need to play more Warhammer 40K.

The 'Hog is practically the archetype of "More DAKKA!"

>A-10 pilots need to play more Warhammer 40K.
>
>The 'Hog is practically the archetype of "More DAKKA!"

Lots more play WH40k than you'd think :) Dude, I'm NOT sh*ttin' you.

There are MORE nerds in flight suits than I think anyone suspects...

And NOT just flying UAVs... ;)

If I had a dime for every Star Wars reference.... I mentioned before we had a guy in my squadron in Korea who's callsign was (and still is) Porkins...

....and for every Marine I've ever heard make a "Corporal Hicks" joke...("Game over man")

or a "Vasquez" joke...

...or the SMSgt with the Robotech figures (I think they were from the Exosquad re-release from a couple years back actually) all over his office (guy made command chief last time I checked)...

...or the SSgt at my last base who was filming his own zombie movie on the weekends...

...then there was this one linguist...brilliant kid....little "off"....had half a space marine army in his cubicle.

or the Lt who works for me now, who's an active member of the 501st :) - Stormtrooper. Keeps trying to get me to join (I ain't spending a grand on storm trooper armor, sorry).

The military has gotten much, much, MUCH more "fen" than I think most people realize.

Ever check out the webcomic Air Force Blues? Or any books by (TSgt) Michael Z. Williamson? (at least, I think he's a tech - his website shows him as a SSgt in '98)...

Don't get me started on Transformers - we (zoomies) were just happy to have "our" movie finally, that wasn't Iron Eagle... friggin' Navy and their Top Gun...

"No airman, I don't want to hear your cosplay stories." (true story)

>Of course the USAF tried to get rid of the A-10; that's because they
>hate the (nonetheless vital) "ground attack/close air support"
>mission. It's not sexy enough. Maybe we should revive
>the Army Air Corps, so the zoomies can stop bitching, get their feet
>out of the mud, and go back to playing at being knights of the air -
>at least until UAVs finally make them obsolete.

I think its more the brass that hate it than the pilots. Once they fire the 30mm and shred a target tank for the first time, I would think most pilots would love the thing. It epitomizes 'more power'.

>>Of course the USAF tried to get rid of the A-10; that's because they
>>hate the (nonetheless vital) "ground attack/close air support"
>>mission. It's not sexy enough. Maybe we should revive
>>the Army Air Corps, so the zoomies can stop bitching, get their feet
>>out of the mud, and go back to playing at being knights of the air -
>>at least until UAVs finally make them obsolete.
>
>I think its more the brass that hate it than the pilots. Once they
>fire the 30mm and shred a target tank for the first time, I would
>think most pilots would love the thing. It epitomizes 'more power'.

The A-10C upgrade pretty much makes the whole 'the USAF hates it' argument moot. It extends the service life to at least 2028, and possibly longer. The F-35 is 'supposed' to replace it, but it's dirt cheap to operate the A-10 in comparison, so odds are probably good it'll be around for a long time.

	Chad Collier Smirking Kilrathi The Captain of the Gravy Train

>The F-35 is 'supposed' to replace it

No matter what aircraft this statement is applied to, the answer is "AHAHAHAHAHA."

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

>>The F-35 is 'supposed' to replace it
>
>No matter what aircraft this statement is applied to, the
>answer is "AHAHAHAHAHA."
>
I don't know - if they tried to replace it with ex-Soviet SU-25s the answer might just be chuckles rather than outright laughter... But yes, there's really nothing in the sky that could properly replace it. An AC-130U has the firepower but probably can't survive the beating an A-10 can (and is nowhere near as good at the A-10's specific role).

Offsides

[...] in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #π
#include <stdsig.h>

>>>The F-35 is 'supposed' to replace it
>>
>>No matter what aircraft this statement is applied to, the
>>answer is "AHAHAHAHAHA."
>>
>I don't know - if they tried to replace it with ex-Soviet SU-25s the
>answer might just be chuckles rather than outright laughter...

Actually, I meant that the other way around; the idea of the F-35 replacing anything strikes me as hilarious. As the great Han Solo said, "This is not gonna work."

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

>Actually, I meant that the other way around; the idea of the F-35
>replacing anything strikes me as hilarious. As the great Han
>Solo said, "This is not gonna work."
>
Ahh, my misunderstanding. I actually like the look of the F-35, but it strikes me as this generation's F-111 - so many compromises that it's not really going to excel at anything except bloating the budget...

Offsides

[...] in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #π
#include <stdsig.h>

>>Actually, I meant that the other way around; the idea of the F-35
>>replacing anything strikes me as hilarious. As the great Han
>>Solo said, "This is not gonna work."
>>
>Ahh, my misunderstanding. I actually like the look of the F-35, but
>it strikes me as this generation's F-111 - so many compromises that
>it's not really going to excel at anything except bloating the
>budget...

Well, not surprising really. Once again history repeats itself, the USAF gets exactly the aircraft it wanted, and its "partners" get hosed. The USAF got the F-16 replacement it wanted in the F-35, while the USN and USMC are left with an aircraft that neither wanted but both will end up paying for.

I dunno; the -B variant sounds like a reasonable improvement on the Harrier to me.

>The A-10C upgrade pretty much makes the whole 'the USAF hates it'
>argument moot. It extends the service life to at least 2028, and
>possibly longer. The F-35 is 'supposed' to replace it, but it's dirt
>cheap to operate the A-10 in comparison, so odds are probably good
>it'll be around for a long time.

The USAF's been grumbling about getting rid of the A-10 for years. The reality is that there simply is no aircraft, either in service or on the drawing board, which can match or surpass it. It's pretty much like the B-52: Every aircraft that will "replace" it has either been canceled or proved too expensive to buy in sufficient quantities.

>>The A-10C upgrade pretty much makes the whole 'the USAF hates it'
>>argument moot. It extends the service life to at least 2028, and
>>possibly longer. The F-35 is 'supposed' to replace it, but it's dirt
>>cheap to operate the A-10 in comparison, so odds are probably good
>>it'll be around for a long time.
>
>The USAF's been grumbling about getting rid of the A-10 for years.
>The reality is that there simply is no aircraft, either in service or
>on the drawing board, which can match or surpass it. It's pretty much
>like the B-52: Every aircraft that will "replace" it has either been
>canceled or proved too expensive to buy in sufficient quantities.

Well, again, there's always a difference between the top levels and what the dude actually flying and employing with it want. Remember, the last couple top dogs in the USAF leadership were F-15 and F-16 jocks. I think the Hog's position is secure, except it is starting to get on up there. The BUFF, as amazing a machine it is, is also getting old, but by the time it DOES finally retire, it's going to be pushing 80 or 90.

However you slice it though, that IS impressive. And personally, I think the psychological value alone warrants keeping a couple Hogs and BUFFs around even past the retirement date...just because :)

But the reason I mentioned the Skyraiders and the A-26s before - those things were in the boneyard, for years even, and Vietnam showcased a need for slow and low, reliable and durable CAS platforms - the kind of thing the SAC-driven USAF of the late '50s and '60s WASN'T building...

FTW, we stick artillery pieces on C-130s though, can't be that...

...except maybe by slinging some paladins underwing a C-5 or something :p

>Well, again, there's always a difference between the top levels and
>what the dude actually flying and employing with it want. Remember,
>the last couple top dogs in the USAF leadership were F-15 and F-16
>jocks. I think the Hog's position is secure, except it is starting to
>get on up there. The BUFF, as amazing a machine it is, is also
>getting old, but by the time it DOES finally retire, it's going to be
>pushing 80 or 90.

I heard a line about the BUFF on the Military Channel once, which went something like "Why get rid of B-52? B-52 still works." And that really applies to both it and the Hog, because why get rid of an aircraft, no matter how old, if it's still the best at what it does?

>However you slice it though, that IS impressive. And personally, I
>think the psychological value alone warrants keeping a couple Hogs and
>BUFFs around even past the retirement date...just because :)

I think by 2048, we might have finally built a successor to the BUFF. But I could see the A-10 serving, if not in the USAF, then in some nation's air arm well past the retirement date.

>But the reason I mentioned the Skyraiders and the A-26s before - those
>things were in the boneyard, for years even, and Vietnam showcased a
>need for slow and low, reliable and durable CAS platforms - the kind
>of thing the SAC-driven USAF of the late '50s and '60s WASN'T
>building...

Hell, they said the Skyraider would never see combat. That, with WWII over and the Jet Age here to stay, the "Spad" would enjoy a short service life and then be replaced by a jet bomber. Then Korea happened and the same Admirals who'd written it off were now depending on it as a long-legged bomb truck. Wasn't until the A-4 came into service that there finally was an aircraft that could surpass it.

>FTW, we stick artillery pieces on C-130s though, can't be that...
>
>...except maybe by slinging some paladins underwing a C-5 or something
>:p

Give'em time. Before too long, they'll find something heavier or meaner that they can shoehorn into it. Like, say, a Metal Storm system that could fire 40mm grenades at 1 million rounds a second.

>>Of course the USAF tried to get rid of the A-10; that's because they
>>hate the (nonetheless vital) "ground attack/close air support"
>>mission. It's not sexy enough. Maybe we should revive
>>the Army Air Corps, so the zoomies can stop bitching, get their feet
>>out of the mud, and go back to playing at being knights of the air -
>>at least until UAVs finally make them obsolete.
>
>I think its more the brass that hate it than the pilots. Once they
>fire the 30mm and shred a target tank for the first time, I would
>think most pilots would love the thing. It epitomizes 'more power'.

FWIW, I can count the number of Hog drivers expressing a desire to get OUT of the jet on one hand.

...and that had to do with the deployment rate! and in my favorite, most prescient quote from a USAF fighter pilot I've ever heard: "I enjoy _employing_ far more than I do _flying_. I don't miss the FAA, ATC, FCIF, stan-evil, any of that garbage, but I DO miss employing the gun."

Century series or not, I propose the 'Hog as the next Retrotech project for the WDF's strike arm. Then again, Tuncer and his boys would very likely appreciate an A-10 coming in to lay some pain on the evil guys the next time they're in a Tense Situation (TM).

-Joe-

Can't they just borrow Powerglide or something? ;)

I'd pilot one. The question is, would you keep the Avenger, or replace it with a railgun/turbolaser?

>I'd pilot one. The question is, would you keep the Avenger, or
>replace it with a railgun/turbolaser?

The Venger is what makes the Hog... Keep it but refit to fire 30mm Grav, like G did with the .45's when he took up the Shadow Motif.

>>I'd pilot one. The question is, would you keep the Avenger, or
>>replace it with a railgun/turbolaser?
>
>The Venger is what makes the Hog... Keep it but refit to fire 30mm
>Grav, like G did with the .45's when he took up the Shadow Motif.

Not to mention adding the hyper-pez dispenser ammo feed :)

Offsides

[...] in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #π
#include <stdsig.h>

A quote I recently saw in a tagline:

Winston Blake: Let's face it, the A-10 doesn't 'fly'; it stares down gravity until it runs into a corner sobbing and then, due to sheer badassery, the air decides to get out of its way.

courtesy of http://www.badassoftheweek.com/warthog.html

The A-10 is like the grizzled old-school Linebacker of the United States Air Force. It's not flashy, it's not super-fast, it's not going to do like twenty barrel rolls just to try and prove to you how huge it's cock is... it just shows up, fucks everyone's shit up, and goes home.

(which I first saw, as a quote, in one of the The Salvation War: Armaggeddon threads, for those of you familiar with said)

I thought this is what Gus would have in Valiant's shuttle bay while he was driving the bus "just in case". He'd be very familiar with it. Hell, I'd love to see him fly it. Truly one of the classics of aviation.

Michael

	Michael C. Fortner RCW #2n+1 "I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time." -- Mark Twain

Given the way this entry has promoted quite a bit of discussion about the older fighter models, here is a link to a sight that sells blueprints suitable for framing of an astonishing number of famous WWII era warbirds, engines, and even civillian craft of note... which also includes one of one of the Wright brothers first production models.

http://www.aviationshoppe.com/catalog/