Go back to previous page
Forum URL: http://www.eyrie-productions.com/Forum/dcboard.cgi
Forum Name: Undocumented Features General
Topic ID: 2221
#0, Irresponsible Speculation
Posted by Mercutio on Mar-25-14 at 04:11 PM
So today I was playing me some Skyrim, and I had me a thought.

And then I spent some time cruising through the available materiel, and that thought hardened into a theory.

From the BPRD internal communique regarding Marceline:

>Marceline Abadeer is the only daughter of the late Hunson Abadeer, aka Molag
>Bal, better known to modern paranormalists as the King of Vampires or Lord of
>Blood - the former Duke of Sheol who created the sanguivorus curse, as
>occultists will still insist upon calling it. With his destruction (sometime
>between 1865, his last recorded appearance in the mortal world, and
>2406), she took the title of Vampire Queen for herself.

Emphasis mine.

And from the second part of Shepard's Eleven, Shepard's Privateers, we have this:

>SUNDAY, AUGUST 6, 2406
>NIRN, MUNDUS SYSTEM
>BETHESDA SECTOR, OUTER RIM TERRITORIES

And this:

>As they left the monastery, Shepard turned to her and asked,
>"...'Dragonborn'?"
>
>Jack shrugged. "It's what they call people who can do the Voice without being
>trained. Like I said, who'm I to argue?"

Again, emphasis mine.

Up until now, I had been operating under the assumption that it was Akio who did in ol'Hunson and usurped his throne.

However, until proven otherwise by text or word of god, I am now utterly and completely convinced that it was, in fact, Jack who murdered Molag Bal right in his big, stupid face. Probably by kicking a hole into Oblivion via sheer force of will and, hopefully, beating him to death with his very own Mace, because Jack is ironic like that.

Akio was merely in a position to capitalize on the power vacuum when it occurred.

-Merc
Keep Rat


#1, RE: Irresponsible Speculation
Posted by Droken on Mar-25-14 at 08:11 PM
In response to message #0
That would probably depend on how long Jack had been on Nirn at that point. Marceline herself points out:

"I think she's the last of his originals left since Drac finally bit it for good in '38."

We don't know -which- '38 she's talking about, but it's one of the...hang on a minute, I can count... -5- '38's in the time-span the good Count mentions.

Still, would be -excellently ironic-.


#2, RE: Irresponsible Speculation
Posted by Mercutio on Mar-25-14 at 08:28 PM
In response to message #1
Point of order; Dracula is one of Molag Bal's original vampires, not Molag Bal himself.

-Merc
Keep Rat


#3, RE: Irresponsible Speculation
Posted by Peter Eng on Mar-26-14 at 02:59 AM
In response to message #0
>>his destruction (sometime between 1865...and 2406)

Emphasis and ellipsis mine.

My point? I don't think anybody outside of Muspelheim knows when Molag Bal bit it. What they do know is that he was alive in 1865, then Akio moved in to Molag's old castle in 2406.

Consider this for a moment. Is there any way that Jack would pound somebody as kick-ass as Molag Bal and not mention it while sitting around in hyperspace? It doesn't fit her personality. And there's no way that Shepard would have failed to note that in her after-action report, even if she had to invent a category for it in her report.

Peter Eng
--
Insert humorous comment here.


#4, RE: Irresponsible Speculation
Posted by Mercutio on Mar-26-14 at 04:09 AM
In response to message #3
LAST EDITED ON Mar-26-14 AT 04:10 AM (EDT)
 
>My point? I don't think anybody outside of Muspelheim knows when
>Molag Bal bit it. What they do know is that he was alive in 1865,
>then Akio moved in to Molag's old castle in 2406.

I'm pretty sure that Akio had a new castle built rather than moving into Coldharbour, but not 100% sure.

>Consider this for a moment. Is there any way that Jack would pound
>somebody as kick-ass as Molag Bal and not mention it while sitting
>around in hyperspace? It doesn't fit her personality. And there's no
>way that Shepard would have failed to note that in her after-action
>report, even if she had to invent a category for it in her report.

Assuming a reasonable level of equivalence to the actual game, during her time on Nirn Jack killed a shit-ton of dragons, an even shit-tonner of vampires, a giant evil dragon god that was out to destroy Nirn, wandered through... three? I think?... alternate dimensions, read at least one Elder Scroll, did a whole bunch of errands for various and sundry gods and demons, trained with the Greybeards, fought an insane dragon cult, took part in a civil war, and judging by her disdain for the Mede Empire, probably pissed off both the first and second most powerful polities on Nirn, and amassed a collection of magically endowed weapons and armor that would make even Dannen Ironbridge go "Damn, girl."

So murdering someone like Molag Bal, while that would be a big deal for most people, for Jack, that's like Tuesday. She has a lot of stories to tell, that's only one of them. Maybe it comes up when Shepard is around, and maybe it don't.

And even if it does come up when Shepard is around, despite spending a lot of time in Valhalla, the significance of it might not be apparent to her. The Duke of Sheol had a lot of names. Molag Bal was one of them. Hunson Abadeer was another. There are probably a whole lot more. He might not have been known as "Molag Bal" in Asgard, in the same way that I imagine that Akio is rather better known as Lord Trigon around there as well.

And even assuming that Molag Bal was in fact known as Molag Bal in Asgard... Shepard is no doubt a well-informed lady, but she doesn't strike me as the kind of person who would have exhaustive knowledge about every single Duke of Muspelheim, especially ones she is unlikely to ever encounter.

So that means that it is entirely possible that all Shepard knows is that this one time, Jack told her a story about this demon lord she murdered. Details are hazy, because Jack also has a story about this vampire lord she murdered, and that dragon lord she murdered, and all those lesser demons she murdered, and, listen, if she wrote up a complete report on everyone Jack ever bragged about murdering she'd get nothing else done ever.

This is, of course, all speculation on my part, but I feel like my reasoning holds up well.

-Merc
Keep Rat


#5, RE: Irresponsible Speculation
Posted by Gryphon on Apr-07-14 at 04:13 PM
In response to message #4
>>My point? I don't think anybody outside of Muspelheim knows when
>>Molag Bal bit it. What they do know is that he was alive in 1865,
>>then Akio moved in to Molag's old castle in 2406.
>
>I'm pretty sure that Akio had a new castle built rather than moving
>into Coldharbour, but not 100% sure.

He doesn't make his primary (or even secondary, now that his main base is in Oriphos) headquarters there, but it's among his possessions. It's not the palace seen in Sympathy for the Devil - that's his "townhouse" in Muspelheim (the city) itself. Coldharbour is out in the hinterlands of Muspelheim (the plane), in the actual district of Sheol itself, which we've never actually seen on screen in UF.

The Hand of Wrath came from his predecessor's collections of ineffable nasty stuff, which was presumably stored at Coldharbour during the interregnum.

>Assuming a reasonable level of equivalence to the actual game, during
>her time on Nirn Jack killed a shit-ton of dragons, an even
>shit-tonner of vampires, a giant evil dragon god that was out
>to destroy Nirn, wandered through... three? I think?... alternate
>dimensions, read at least one Elder Scroll, did a whole bunch of
>errands for various and sundry gods and demons, trained with the
>Greybeards, fought an insane dragon cult, took part in a civil war,
>and judging by her disdain for the Mede Empire, probably pissed off
>both the first and second most powerful polities on Nirn, and
>amassed a collection of magically endowed weapons and armor that would
>make even Dannen Ironbridge go "Damn, girl."

And bagged a genuine vampire princess! She doesn't usually go for chicks, but there's somethin' about Serana.

>So that means that it is entirely possible that all Shepard knows is
>that this one time, Jack told her a story about this demon lord she
>murdered. Details are hazy, because Jack also has a story about this
>vampire lord she murdered, and that dragon lord she murdered, and all
>those lesser demons she murdered, and, listen, if she wrote up a
>complete report on everyone Jack ever bragged about murdering she'd
>get nothing else done ever.

Yeah, that's pretty well the size of that, I should think.

As to your original speculation, I couldn't possibly comment, except to say that it's true that Akio played no part in the opening of the vacancy in Sheol; it's merely the first open duchy that came to hand when Surtur decided to promote him.

(Note that it's not unknown in Muspelheim how long the post had been vacant before Trigon's installation; just to the BPRD.)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#6, RE: Irresponsible Speculation
Posted by Mercutio on Apr-07-14 at 07:19 PM
In response to message #5

>And bagged a genuine vampire princess! She doesn't usually go for
>chicks, but there's somethin' about Serana.

I feel like the writers were deliberately messin' with our heads when it comes to Serana and possible romantical interactions with same. You can, if you have an Amulet of Mara and do it during the right quest, ask her to marry you. She doesn't say yes, but she won't really fully commit to the no either.

And then nothing! It never comes up again, even if she decides not to be a vampire lady anymore and just be a regular lady instead! It was most inconvenient. My kids deserve a second mother who is also a princess who is also a vampire, Bethesda! Why you gotta judge my lifestyle choices?

Also too: while I'm choosing to believe things about Nirn, I choose to believe that Jack Shouted Ulfric Stormcloak to death and took command of his revolution herself. Because given the choice between siding with the Aldmeri Dominion and their murderous lackey of a General, or with the brutal, racist thug of a war criminal, pretty sure Jack decides "neither" and builds her own insurrection from the ground up.

>As to your original speculation, I couldn't possibly comment, except
>to say that it's true that Akio played no part in the opening of the
>vacancy in Sheol; it's merely the first open duchy that came to hand
>when Surtur decided to promote him.
>
>(Note that it's not unknown in Muspelheim how long the post had
>been vacant before Trigon's installation; just to the BPRD.)

Both valuable pieces of information in their own right to the discerning pedant, sir. :)

-Merc
Keep Rat


#7, RE: Irresponsible Speculation
Posted by Gryphon on Apr-07-14 at 07:29 PM
In response to message #6
>Also too: while I'm choosing to believe things about Nirn, I choose to
>believe that Jack Shouted Ulfric Stormcloak to death and took command
>of his revolution herself. Because given the choice between siding
>with the Aldmeri Dominion and their murderous lackey of a General, or
>with the brutal, racist thug of a war criminal, pretty sure Jack
>decides "neither" and builds her own insurrection from the ground up.

Well, you remember that "peace conference" the Dragonborn had to arrange at Greybeard Central that was just all General Tullius and Ulfric Stormcloak whining about the Obvious Favoritism being shown the other side? (Uh, spoiler alert, I guess.)

Jack's version involved Jack doing a lot more of the talking, culminating in her remarks - since immortalized in song by the Bards' College of Solitude - to them both:

"I'm sorry, would you ladies like to be alone? Sit the fuck down while the adults are talking or wait the fuck outside, the pair of you."

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#8, RE: Irresponsible Speculation
Posted by Mercutio on Apr-07-14 at 11:00 PM
In response to message #7

>Jack's version involved Jack doing a lot more of the talking,
>culminating in her remarks - since immortalized in song by the Bards'
>College of Solitude - to them both:
>
>"I'm sorry, would you ladies like to be alone? Sit the fuck down
>while the adults are talking or wait the fuck outside, the pair of
>you."

Man, they must have spent a lot of time trying to fit that into a rhyming couplet.

Credit where credit is due, tho: I gotta give Bethesda some props for making choosing sides in Skyrim a legitimately tough decision, especially since learning more about the roots of the conflict and the overall political situation of Tamriel made things harder rather than easier.

"Well, the Empire kind of sucks. Kind of a lot. I like Talos. He helps me Shout 20% more often! I also don't like people pulled from their homes by the elves and tortured for worshiping him. Plus, Tullius tried to murder me. So maybe I should support Ulfric... who is a howling bigot and slaughtered a bunch of Reachmen not too long ago and killed Torygg for no damn good reason, which doesn't really indicate he'll be a sober, reasonable High King. Hmm. Still, though, it's better than the Empire... only, aren't the Aldmeri basically just waiting for another chance to crush them? If Skyrim secedes they'll have that much of an easier time of it, and it's hard to fault Titus Mede for doing what he had to to make peace after an apocalyptic war. Maybe we all need to hang together rather than hanging separately.

"Only, that peace basically involved shitting all over Skyrim and Hammerfell. But Skyrim can't take the Dominion by itself... oh, hmm. Hammerfell seceded from the Empire and kicked the Dominion's ass all by themselves. We're at least as badass as they are... right?

"Shit. I'm gonna need more mead."

-Merc
Keep Rat


#9, RE: Irresponsible Speculation
Posted by Gryphon on Apr-07-14 at 11:06 PM
In response to message #8
>>"I'm sorry, would you ladies like to be alone? Sit the fuck down
>>while the adults are talking or wait the fuck outside, the pair of
>>you."
>
>Man, they must have spent a lot of time trying to fit that into
>a rhyming couplet.

It works surprisingly well in Old Nordic, though the Cyrodiilic translation is a bit shite.

>Credit where credit is due, tho: I gotta give Bethesda some props for
>making choosing sides in Skyrim a legitimately tough decision

Eh, I'm less impressed by Gordian knots that are presented without a way of cutting them. Getting to the full explication and then simply having to lump it feels curiously like I've just had my damn time wasted.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#11, RE: Irresponsible Speculation
Posted by Mercutio on Apr-07-14 at 11:49 PM
In response to message #9

>Eh, I'm less impressed by Gordian knots that are presented without a
>way of cutting them. Getting to the full explication and then simply
>having to lump it feels curiously like I've just had my damn time
>wasted.

This is definitely a legit position (not that you need my permission to have an opinion) but in the context of Bethesda games in general, I felt like it represented real progression. New Vegas had some interesting storyline choices to make, but really it boiled down to two good choices with no downside (Independent or NCR Vegas) or two evil choices with no upside (House rules Vegas, Caesar conquers Vegas.) Fallout 3 had even less variation; you decide early on whether or not to nuke Megaton and then that's basically it. Oblivion mostly ran on rails.

It was nice to see Skyrim take a step forward from that. If you're invested in the game and the universe (as opposed to someone who plays Bethesda games for the purpose of picking some random dudes house and filling it to the brim with every single plate and cup in the game) the Civil War questline is a really hard call to make and there's no obvious "Yes, this decision is good and right and properly heroic and will bring peace to all the peoples" choice. Some problems are bigger than even the Dragonborn, and even someone who slays the World-Eater and bargains successfully with the Daedra sometimes has to make do as best they're able to.

Mind you, if Skyrim had been a different sort of game, I might think differently. But the setting itself has that weird norse/germanic saga thing going on, where in any given story you never know if the hero is going to slay the monster and become King and everything is awesome forever, or if they'll be betrayed by their trusted companions and die in a forsaken hole somewhere while their unquiet shade wanders the world seeking a vengeance that will never come, the end. Given that context, I like that there's no easy out; you can't just become thane of all the holds and kill Ulfric in an honorable duel and conquer Solitude and become High King yourself. The easy wins come from defeating Alduin, Harkon, and Miraak. After that, things get messy.

-Merc
Keep Rat


#12, RE: Irresponsible Speculation
Posted by CdrMike on Apr-08-14 at 00:10 AM
In response to message #11
>
>New Vegas had some
>interesting storyline choices to make, but really it boiled down to
>two good choices with no downside (Independent or NCR Vegas) or two
>evil choices with no upside (House rules Vegas, Caesar conquers
>Vegas.)

Have to disagree, there was no real "good" outcome, just three outcomes that were progressively better for some and bad for others, and then a truly bad outcome that became apocalyptic if Caesar bought it before the end. Under the NCR, most of the towns and settlements might be protected but only at the cost of heavy taxation, with the minor factions either wiped out, forced out, or made to play nice with the NCR. Indie New Vegas might prevent taxation and see those settlements on the road to the city proper prosper, but the Brotherhood ends up harassing every traveler that travels through their territory, and again the minor factions depend largely on whether you convinced them to run or fight. And House keeps the lights on in New Vegas, but rules as a dictator, keeping the peace by way of his Securitrons and turning on any faction that was seen as aligned with the NCR.

And the Legions endings, like I said, depend on whether you saved Caesar's life or not. If you did, then he's basically on par with House, though the difference is that where House allowed communities to survive if they agreed to "protection," Caesar makes it clear that there's two choices: The Legion or a spot on the pile of bodies. If you don't save Caesar, then they don't even get the luxury of a choice.


#13, RE: Irresponsible Speculation
Posted by Gryphon on Apr-08-14 at 00:26 AM
In response to message #12
Also, BethSoft didn't write F:NV.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#14, RE: Irresponsible Speculation
Posted by Mercutio on Apr-08-14 at 00:40 AM
In response to message #13
My understanding is that they maintained editorial control over the writing team at Obsidian, however.

-Merc
Keep Rat


#15, RE: Irresponsible Speculation
Posted by Blackbird on Apr-08-14 at 01:22 AM
In response to message #8

I take solace in the fact that in UF, at least, the Thalmor are merely racial supremacists and ultra-nationalists, and not an outright threat to the universe. Yes, because of Aurbis' horrendously complicated metaphysics, they (probably) want to unmake the universe, for religious reasons, no less. Thankfully, in UF, the metaphysics is not nearly so convoluted, and the Thalmor are vastly outnumbered by the rest of the universe, and don't have the means. (Though someone seems to be destabilizing reality, over the course of the games, in a measurable way.)

You forgot that Ulfric was at one time, and may still be, in the Thalmor's pocket.

Talos/Lorkhan is fascinating, by the way.

More generally, Aurbis is one of the few fictional settings I've seen which breathes authenticity. Bethesda's worldbuilding here is top-notch. That said, I'm a bit disappointed with how they handled Alduin. He's supposed to be Eating the World, isn't he? That wasn't really depicted.

Obscure and deuterocanonical Elder Scrolls lore is one of my interests. What of it?


#16, RE: Irresponsible Speculation
Posted by laudre on Apr-08-14 at 08:00 AM
In response to message #15
>Aurbis' horrendously complicated
>metaphysics

While this is horribly tangential to the thread overall, this specific phrase reminds me of one fan theory about the setting's mechanics which is sufficiently baroque to be plausible. While I'm not sufficiently versed in the lore to elaborate on the underpinnings, the theory is that, essentially, the Dragonborn, by absorbing the souls of the dragons, is beginning the process of apotheosis. This ends with the Dragonborn gaining powers over time, and traveling back to the beginning of the universe, becoming Akatosh. (Had to Google to get that name right, and remind myself of Akatosh's domain.)


"Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately, it also brought mortis."
- Kenneth Boulding


#17, RE: Irresponsible Speculation
Posted by CdrMike on Apr-08-14 at 06:21 PM
In response to message #15
>You forgot that Ulfric was at one time, and may still be, in the
>Thalmor's pocket.

Ulfric was, for lack of a better term, a useful idiot for the Thalmor. So buried in his own beliefs that he couldn't realize that the Empire was in the process of rebuilding for another round against the Aldmari while High King Torygg respected him enough to be convinced to break ties with the Empire over Talos worship if asked. By starting a civil war in Skyrim, it killed the proverbial two birds with one stone: It kept the Empire wrapped up in trying to keep Skyrim while also giving them an excuse to clamp down on Talos worship. Their only real worry was that the civil war would end, as the victor would be able to reunite Skyrim and either resume Talos worship or strengthen the Empire.


#18, RE: Irresponsible Speculation
Posted by Mercutio on Apr-08-14 at 11:35 PM
In response to message #17
To be fair, I am 100% on-board with Ulfric's agenda of murdering the Thalmor. Like, a lot. This is both good politics and good policy. Seceding from the Empire isn't even a dumb choice; lets not forget that Hammerfell took on the Aldmeri by themselves for five years and kicked them out. If the Redguard by themselves can do that, it means Titus Mede made an enormous mistake by accepting the concessions he did in the White-Gold Concordat. A completely understandable mistake, but a mistake nonetheless.

I think Ulfric genuinely expected that his defeat of Torygg in single combat would be recognized as legitimate by all the Jarls of Skyrim and so he'd be a shoe-in for next High King. He didn't seem to realize that the Nords no longer live in the time of Ysgramor, and that even back then, an experienced warrior challenging and killing a much younger one without exhausting diplomatic options was considered bad form.

-Merc
Keep Rat


#19, RE: Irresponsible Speculation
Posted by CdrMike on Apr-09-14 at 00:12 AM
In response to message #18
>To be fair, I am 100% on-board with Ulfric's agenda of murdering the
>Thalmor. Like, a lot. This is both good politics and good policy.
>Seceding from the Empire isn't even a dumb choice; lets not forget
>that Hammerfell took on the Aldmeri by themselves for five years and
>kicked them out. If the Redguard by themselves can do that, it means
>Titus Mede made an enormous mistake by accepting the concessions he
>did in the White-Gold Concordat. A completely understandable mistake,
>but a mistake nonetheless.

The Empire had already lost three entire legions in the fighting over the capital, the first during the retreat, and two more during the Battle of the Red Ring to retake it. Those that remained had been badly savaged and reinforcement was not forthcoming. The White-Gold Concordat was agreed to because the Empire knew that continued fighting would only delay the inevitable, while the Aldmeri didn't want to expend the resources necessary to stomp the Empire flat when the proposed peace agreement was very generous to them.

As for Hammerfell, it's heavily hinted that the Aldmeri specifically asked for it because they knew that Mede would be forced to release it as an imperial province to maintain the treaty and that it would create resentment amongst the Redguard towards the Imperials. If the Empire had tried to hold onto it, then both likely would have fallen.

>I think Ulfric genuinely expected that his defeat of Torygg in single
>combat would be recognized as legitimate by all the Jarls of Skyrim
>and so he'd be a shoe-in for next High King. He didn't seem to realize
>that the Nords no longer live in the time of Ysgramor, and that even
>back then, an experienced warrior challenging and killing a much
>younger one without exhausting diplomatic options was considered bad
>form.

That's sort of the sentiment you get from Jarl Balgruuf, that the other Jarls who support the Empire may not agree with the Concordat or really overly happy with the increased Imperial presence to assist the Thalmor, but Ulfric's challenge and slaying of Torygg went over the line.


#20, RE: Irresponsible Speculation
Posted by Mercutio on Apr-09-14 at 00:37 AM
In response to message #19
LAST EDITED ON Apr-09-14 AT 00:39 AM (EDT)
 
>The Empire had already lost three entire legions in the fighting over
>the capital, the first during the retreat, and two more during the
>Battle of the Red Ring to retake it. Those that remained had been
>badly savaged and reinforcement was not forthcoming. The White-Gold
>Concordat was agreed to because the Empire knew that continued
>fighting would only delay the inevitable,

That's demonstrably wrong, though. I mean, don't get me wrong. "We can't take them, we should sue for peace" was a completely justifiable stance to take at the time. Hell, I probably would have done the same thing. It's just that latter events, I feel, conclusively proved that the Dominion wasn't as strong as the Empire thought it was, which means that giving away the store with the Concordat was a mistake.

>As for Hammerfell, it's heavily hinted that the Aldmeri specifically
>asked for it because they knew that Mede would be forced to release it
>as an imperial province to maintain the treaty and that it would
>create resentment amongst the Redguard towards the Imperials. If the
>Empire had tried to hold onto it, then both likely would have fallen.

Er... wha?

I don't quite understand your logic here. After the Empire released Hammerfell, the Redguards fought on. They fought on for five more years... and they won! They beat the Dominion, driving them from Hammerfell and reclaiming their province! You're saying that Hammerfell + High Rock + Cyrodiil + Skyrim would have had worse odds against the Dominion than Hammerfell fighting alone did?

Hammerfell represents really solid evidence that the Dominion got fucked up a lot worse in the war than the Empire thought they did. Otherwise, they'd have managed to hold onto the place.

>That's sort of the sentiment you get from Jarl Balgruuf, that the
>other Jarls who support the Empire may not agree with the Concordat or
>really overly happy with the increased Imperial presence to assist the
>Thalmor, but Ulfric's challenge and slaying of Torygg went over the
>line.

Balgruuf is another reason I couldn't bring myself to side with Ulfric. Whiterun was my first home. Balgruuf is the thane who legitimized me as Dragonborn, the first guy to make me a thane of his hold. Without him letting me use his home as a giant dragon trap, we don't beat Alduin.

I couldn't just help Ulfric conquer the place after that.

-Merc
Keep Rat


#21, RE: Irresponsible Speculation
Posted by pjmoyer on Apr-09-14 at 00:55 AM
In response to message #20
Aaaand I think this digressed way far away from Undocumented Features General subject matter around reply #11.

--- Philip






Philip J. Moyer
Contributing Writer, Editor and Artist (and Moderator) -- Eyrie Productions, Unlimited
CEO of MTS, High Poobah Of Artwork, and High Priest Of the Church Of Aerianne -- Magnetic Terrapin Studios
"Insert Pithy Comment Here"
Fandoms -- Fanart


#22, RE: Irresponsible Speculation
Posted by starless on Apr-09-14 at 11:09 PM
In response to message #8
>making choosing sides in Skyrim a legitimately tough decision,

Really, it just comes down to "everyone is assholes."

Which is why I've beaten Skyrim without ever once assisting either side in the civil war.


#10, RE: Irresponsible Speculation
Posted by CdrMike on Apr-07-14 at 11:48 PM
In response to message #6
>I feel like the writers were deliberately messin' with our heads when
>it comes to Serana and possible romantical interactions with same. You
>can, if you have an Amulet of Mara and do it during the right quest,
>ask her to marry you. She doesn't say yes, but she won't really
>fully commit to the no either.
>
>And then nothing! It never comes up again, even if she decides not to
>be a vampire lady anymore and just be a regular lady instead! It was
>most inconvenient. My kids deserve a second mother who is also a
>princess who is also a vampire, Bethesda! Why you gotta judge my
>lifestyle choices?

It's not you, it's her. j/k

Joking aside, Serana's viewpoint in-game makes me think alot of Utena at the start of UF, that standoffish attitude towards others due to the events leading up to her introduction to the story. Between parents who were effectively at war with each other and the means by which one "earns" the title of Daughter of Coldharbour, it's not really surprising that she's hesitant to even consider loving another. That might change with time, she could come to terms with her emotional baggage, but right now she's really too broken to go past "good friend."