LAST EDITED ON May-11-09 AT 00:49 AM (EDT)
 
OK, Gryph, I think I have a rough model of the Surprise-Class. From your description I got the idea it would be like a 24th Century version of FASA's Loknar-Class. So here she is:

The full size can be found here: http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2489172680099072508KZbrCg Just click on the image and tell it full screen.

Sorry the drawing is rough, but the only line drawing of the Sovereign-Class I could find was rough. Now for some of the real artists here to make a better looking drawing....

Michael

(edited for my poor spelling....)

	Michael C. Fortner RCW #2n 1 "I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time." -- Mark Twain

I had pictured it as a closer analog to the old Reliant, with the warp engines below the saucer, but that is otherwise very close! I'd be interested in seeing it the other way round, if it wouldn't be too much of a hassle; maybe when they're next to each other, it'll turn out that the engines-on-top version looks better.

(Two Rs, though. Not a big deal, unless someone goes to do hull graphics, but still. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Heh, sorry bout that. I can't spell worth a flip and I must have not paid attention to my spell checker.... :)

Give me a few and I'll work on the other version.

Michael

	Michael C. Fortner RCW #2n+1 "I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time." -- Mark Twain

Ok, here is Reliant based Surprise-Class (spelled it right this time!):

Full size view can be found at http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2930999680099072508AWLijY

Michael

	Michael C. Fortner RCW #2n+1 "I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time." -- Mark Twain

LAST EDITED ON May-11-09 AT 00:51 AM (EDT)
 
The comparison between the two designs:

(Full size at http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2211529310099072508dsxaNT)

I figure that whichever you don't use could be the destroyer version to the Surprise-Class Frigate.

Opinions?

Michael

	Michael C. Fortner RCW #2n+1 "I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time." -- Mark Twain

I know I dont really get a vote myself, but I personally prefer the looks of the high naecel version G.

I dunno but it seems like the warp nacelles are canted a little too far down compared to the high-nacelle version?

_____________________________________________
"Walls are meant to be broken." - makes sense both figuratively and literally.

If it matters, I agree with you.

“They planned their campaigns just as you might make a splendid piece of harness. It looks very well; and answers very well; until it gets broken; and then you are done for. Now I made my campaigns of ropes. If anything went wrong, I tied a knot; and went on.”
-- Arthur Wellesley, First Duke of Wellington

Yeah, I agree. I think it's because the lower half of the saucer curves more.

Sexy ship, though. She could vent my warp core any day of the week, if you know what I mean.

>I dunno but it seems like the warp nacelles are canted a little too
>far down compared to the high-nacelle version?

Mm, this could be. They look all right in profile, but from directly in front the pylons look too long. (The nacelles are on upside-down, too, which probably doesn't help. :)

One thing to keep in mind when weighing these up is that Surprise is rather smaller than Challenger (which is on the humongous side as this style of starship goes); her construction isn't simply a Sovereign dish and warp engines with the secondary hull omitted, the external arrangement is also scaled down by about 30 percent. (I say "external arrangement" because, well, obviously inside the ceilings aren't all 30 percent lower, etc. :) It's pretty much impossible to see without a scale reference, so for purposes of actually making the artwork it doesn't matter, but it should be borne in mind when looking at them.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

>One thing to keep in mind when weighing these up is that
>Surprise is rather smaller than Challenger (which is on
>the humongous side as this style of starship goes); her construction
>isn't simply a Sovereign dish and warp engines with the
>secondary hull omitted, the external arrangement is also scaled down
>by about 30 percent. (I say "external arrangement" because, well,
>obviously inside the ceilings aren't all 30 percent lower, etc. :)
>It's pretty much impossible to see without a scale reference, so for
>purposes of actually making the artwork it doesn't matter, but it
>should be borne in mind when looking at them.
>
>--G.
>-><-
>Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
>Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
>Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

30% scaled down? Is that by mass or by length? I do not want to think about all the problems that caused for the designer of the thing, given what I know about warship design. Probably involved a divorce, the loss of a good two inches of hairline and the gain of about 10-15 kilos if it was a male. Being put in charge of a major project is apparently a major source of stress, if my sources can be believed.

In all seriousness, even if the nacelles are shared the hull would have to be a totally new design. If the nacelles are proportionally scaled down, then you have to shell out more money for a new design and fabrication equipment to make the smaller design, and that doesn't save you any money because the hull still needs to be redesigned to fit the reactor and to resist different stresses than the full-sized design would experience. It might not be quite as big a job as the sister design, but it wouldn't be easy either.

>In all seriousness, even if the nacelles are shared the hull would
>have to be a totally new design.

Well... yes, but that's what it is. The "it's made of Sovereign parts" thing is just a note to the prop department, as it were - it has no bearing on the in-story realities of the ship's construction, apart from the fact that Sovereign and Surprise share an aesthetic design language, if you will.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Heh, what can I say, I'm a hack when it comes to design and drawing. I just bash around in GIMP. My biggest problem was that with the engines "right side up" I could not figure a way to attach them to the pylons and look right. And I thought the pylons might be too long on the bottom, that's why I went with my first idea and had them above the saucer. Of course, I'm no Phil or Jeremy or Chad, so my art bites. But at least this should give somebody better at it a beginning for a good drawing....

Michael

	Michael C. Fortner RCW #2n+1 "I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time." -- Mark Twain

>One thing to keep in mind when weighing these up is that
>Surprise is rather smaller than Challenger (which is on
>the humongous side as this style of starship goes); her construction
>isn't simply a Sovereign dish and warp engines with the
>secondary hull omitted, the external arrangement is also scaled down
>by about 30 percent.

Like this?

Michael

	Michael C. Fortner RCW #2n+1 "I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time." -- Mark Twain

Aww, it's cute!

Does it matter all that much that the nacelles are flipped, Gryph? I mean, the'd function just the same, right? I'm assuming that mounting to the fiddly glowwy bits that run along the 'top' would be kind of a pain.

	Chad Collier Smirking Kilrathi The Captain of the Gravy Train

>Does it matter all that much that the nacelles are flipped, Gryph? I
>mean, the'd function just the same, right? I'm assuming that mounting
>to the fiddly glowwy bits that run along the 'top' would be kind of a
>pain.

Well, I'd assume the nacelles wouldn't be identical--especially since they're a different size. Maybe something a bit different but in the same design "family":

>Does it matter all that much that the nacelles are flipped, Gryph?

No, I suppose it doesn't, really; doubly so since, the more I look at them, the more inclined I feel to go with the version with the engines on top.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Aw, I liked the "inverted and tucked-in" version.

I prefer that version, too. The side profile gives it a haunting resemblance, at least from my own POV, to a classic Romulan Warbird.

-Joe-

I'm with the rest of the peasants on this one, my liege Gryphon. The one with the lower nacelles just makes me wanna give it a cuddle. Which is probably a bit odd considering it's an interstellar warship weighing in at Gods-know-how-many tons, but there you are. Jane's Fighting Ships'd make a plushie version of the Surprise-class and by Christ would it sell...

He used to be indecisive; now he's just not sure.

I'm probably being mean but the longer I look at the profile of the high-nacelle version the more I think it resembles a hood ornament :D although now that I think about it having a starship model as a hood ornament would be pretty damn awesome (needless to say it would be stolen within the first two hours of buying said ornament.) :D

The profile of the nacelle-down version however reminds me of the runabouts used in the shows, just scaled up to full starship size and aesthetics.

_____________________________________________
"Walls are meant to be broken." - makes sense both figuratively and literally.

When you post'em together like that, the one with the nacelles on top looks like you shrunk the Challenger in the wash.

"It says on the tag 'Dry Clean Only'!"

LAST EDITED ON May-12-09 AT 09:42 AM (EDT)
 
>
>I dunno but it seems like the warp nacelles are canted a little too
>far down compared to the high-nacelle version?

I think on the side view they are a little too far down, but compared to the proportions of the Miranda, they are pretty close to the same. A couple of quick comparisons to show you what I mean. Of course, the Surprise is much bigger than a Miranda....

I didn't want to go with the straight down struts because it didn't look as good IMHO.

Oh, and here is the first version compared with the Loknar.

Not bad considering I didn't really refer to the TMP ships until AFTER I had done the Surprise versions. I did them by eye and adjusted to what looked "right" to me first.

Michael

	Michael C. Fortner RCW #2n+1 "I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time." -- Mark Twain

So, Gryph, any decision on which one you prefer yet? Or are you waiting for someone with more talent than I have to make a better rendition of the two designs? ;)

Michael

	Michael C. Fortner RCW #2n+1 "I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time." -- Mark Twain

>So, Gryph, any decision on which one you prefer yet?

Didn't I say like a week ago? Hmm. No, I guess I didn't, I just said I was leaning that way. My mistake, I could've sworn I followed that up.

Anyway, yeah, I like the one with the engines on top better. I had a mental picture that was more Reliant-like, but the marked top-and-bottom asymmetry of the Sovereign-style main hull makes it not really work in practice.

Also, upon further review, I think I specified too drastic a scaling-down; at that size she's not that much bigger than a Defiant, and she's supposed to be a frigate to the Sovereign's line-of-battle ship, as it were. I think maybe 75% would be more like it.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

LAST EDITED ON May-18-09 AT 08:50 AM (EDT)
 
>Also, upon further review, I think I specified too drastic a
>scaling-down; at that size she's not that much bigger than a
>Defiant, and she's supposed to be a frigate to the
>Sovereign's line-of-battle ship, as it were. I think maybe 75%
>would be more like it.

Gryph, using figures I found at http://www.ditl.org and I am thinking 70% may be about right. Look at this comparison image I did up:

With the Sovereign Class at 680 meters and a Defiant Class at 170.68 meters, the Surprise Class would come out to be around 380 meters. That would make it longer than a refit Constitution Class at 305 meters. At 75% saucer scale, it would be around 407 meters.

What do you think?

	Michael C. Fortner RCW #2n+1 "I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time." -- Mark Twain

>With the Sovereign Class at 680 meters and a Defiant Class at 170.68
>meters, the Surprise Class would come out to be around 380 meters.
>That would make it longer than a refit Constitution Class at 305
>meters. At 75% saucer scale, it would be around 407 meters.
>
>What do you think?

Yeah, that works. I'm not too fussed about the numbers, but it looks right in the picture. Go with it!

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Ok, I was looking at Starship Modeler and saw this submission. I think this is what you originally had in mind for the Surprise Class.

Check out the listing at http://www.starshipmodeler.us/gallery14/js_101409_rel.htm

Michael C. Fortner
"Rule 37: There is no such thing as "overkill".
There is only "open fire" and "I need to reload".

Yep, that is indeed pretty much bang on what my original concept was. And nicely executed, too!

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

And we have a few photos of the Surprise class now. Wish I was that talented with models. I couldn't even get them to blow up right.

Michael

Michael C. Fortner
"Rule 37: There is no such thing as "overkill".
There is only "open fire" and "I need to reload".