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Forum Name: Our Witches at War
Topic ID: 34
#0, New Tricks
Posted by zwol on Jan-04-15 at 01:35 PM
This returns to the basic structure of the older one-shots (most obviously Aegis Florea), in which UF-Gryphon falls headfirst into whichever anime has captured RL-Gryphon's attention this month -- only with the benefit of a decade-plus of additional writing experience. It works well in this context. We don't really need to see the entire Strike Witches plotline play out to appreciate Mio's problem and G's approach to solving it. I personally also liked seeing K-ryu training applied to someone with an entirely different starting character build than the Rose Duelists.

The triumphant return of the Rocket Attack USA monologue is appreciated.

I have no idea which sentai team that's supposed to be in the opening short, but it was fun to watch anyway.


#1, RE: New Tricks
Posted by SpottedKitty on Jan-04-15 at 02:23 PM
In response to message #0
>I have no idea which sentai team that's supposed to be in the opening
>short, but it was fun to watch anyway.

Going by the various "neat anime I've watched" threads, I think this is Vividred Operation.

Lots of other fun stuff in this yarn. Dread Sensei Gryphon. The "propeller-driven pants" line. The Bath Scene (yes, it Deserves Capital Letters). The little memo at the end.

After thinking about the scene of Mio finally Getting It (which was properly awesome, of course), I can't help wondering — if Utena hadn't had her talent for the "Indiana Jones" method of DIY combat training, would she have gone through this herself, and maybe had less problems realising her own connection with the Force?

--
Unable to save the day: File is read-only.


#3, RE: New Tricks
Posted by Gryphon on Jan-04-15 at 03:57 PM
In response to message #1
>After thinking about the scene of Mio finally Getting It (which was
>properly awesome, of course), I can't help wondering — if Utena
>hadn't had her talent for the "Indiana Jones" method of DIY combat
>training, would she have gone through this herself, and maybe had less
>problems realising her own connection with the Force?

Well... maybe? Except if she hadn't, she would probably not have survived the Lost Tournament.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#2, RE: New Tricks
Posted by Gryphon on Jan-04-15 at 03:56 PM
In response to message #0
>This returns to the basic structure of the older one-shots (most
>obviously Aegis Florea), in which UF-Gryphon falls headfirst into
>whichever anime has captured RL-Gryphon's attention this month

Sometimes it's a useful exercise to go back to the basics and see what transpires...

>only with the benefit of a decade-plus of additional writing experience.

There are some musings on the differences that time/experience differential introduced in the annotations, once they're through review.

>We don't really need to see the entire
>Strike Witches plotline play out to appreciate Mio's problem
>and G's approach to solving it.

It is, in fact, a deliberate feature of the way this was set up that G wasn't there for any of the things that happened in the Strike Witches TV series - the first season can be assumed to have happened just as it did on screen, and the second up to about the midway point of episode 11, which is where Mio leaves from (as it were) in the second flashback. (The finale of season two will therefore necessarily have been... a bit different, though, again, he wasn't there for it.) The adventures he had with the 501st all happened well before the first episode (which is set in the late spring of 1944), which is why he doesn't know Lynne Bishop or Yoshika Miyafuji - they joined after he left.

>The triumphant return of the Rocket Attack USA monologue is
>appreciated.

I was going to go for the straight-up "you-had-to-be-there" shared-experience retelling, but then I thought, well, no, it was an alternate universe excursion... :)

>I have no idea which sentai team that's supposed to be in the opening
>short, but it was fun to watch anyway.

That is, as Spotted Kitty theorized, an extrapolated version of the cast of Vividred Operation, seen about five years after the show (by which time, it is assumed, protagonist Akane's younger sister Momo has accumulated a second Vivid squad of her own).

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#4, RE: New Tricks
Posted by Matrix Dragon on Jan-04-15 at 04:39 PM
In response to message #0
You know, I suspect I know what you deemed an unacceptable outcome over in the Strike Witches discussion thread. Just a hunch.

It's a common trend, in reality and fiction, that in situations like the one Mio was in, that the only 'realistic' option is for her to come to terms with the fact she'd never fight again, she'd never be able to fly, and try to find something else that gives her life meaning.

I very much prefer settings where she's allowed to go 'fuck that noise', and promptly find a way to end up even better then she was before :)

Matrix Dragon, J. Random Nutter


#5, RE: New Tricks
Posted by Gryphon on Jan-04-15 at 05:18 PM
In response to message #4
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-15 AT 05:19 PM (EST)
 
>It's a common trend, in reality and fiction, that in situations like
>the one Mio was in, that the only 'realistic' option is for her to
>come to terms with the fact she'd never fight again, she'd never be
>able to fly, and try to find something else that gives her life
>meaning.

I know, right?

(spoilers for Strike Witches the Movie below; highlight to read)

Her appearance in the movie is so utterly bittersweet as a result. I mean, yeah, she gets a great entrance and she gets to Be Awesome (for a second, before standing well back and letting the grown-ups work), and they go out of their way to show that she's Accepted Her Fate, but... a reconnaissance plane? They couldn't even give her a lousy fighter? We know they exist, hordes of them get destroyed every time they need to remind the audience of the futility of opposing the Neuroi with conventional weapons. No, they had to remove any chance that she might still think of herself as a combatant. It's not an abusive ending, like some I could name, but it's like she's walking away with a copy of the board game and a year's supply of Rice-a-Roni (The San Francisco Treat™). Nah. Not in my house. Not for a character as awesome as her.

>I very much prefer settings where she's allowed to go 'fuck that
>noise', and promptly find a way to end up even better then she was
>before :)

Not for nothing is the motto of the Wedge Defense Force Experimental Flight Test Command, whose challenge coin sparked the whole idea for her, cribbed shamelessly from the Olympic movement: Citius, altius, fortius. "Faster, higher, stronger."

In fact... I wasn't thinking about this consciously when I wrote the story, but in hindsight I must've known it on some level: What Mio and Gryphon have just set in motion there could be the revolutionization not just of her life, but of witchery in general. Mio's an instructor at heart, it's a theme that crops up time and again on the show, and she's just picked up what could be the key to life-begins-at-20 for, if not all witches, at least quite a number of them.

Not that every single one of them would want to stay on active duty, nor be willing or able to put in the work required to unlock it. Few people have Mio Sakamoto's burning drive to stay in the game. But enough of them would, I suspect, that K-ryū, or a newly-named variant of it Mio may establish under her own name, could become a movement. That's potentially huge, it could change that entire world.

Utena would be so proud.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#7, RE: New Tricks
Posted by Nathan on Jan-04-15 at 09:34 PM
In response to message #5
>In fact... I wasn't thinking about this consciously when I wrote the
>story, but in hindsight I must've known it on some level: What Mio and
>Gryphon have just set in motion there could be the revolutionization
>not just of her life, but of witchery in general. Mio's an
>instructor at heart, it's a theme that crops up time and again on the
>show, and she's just picked up what could be the key to
>life-begins-at-20 for, if not all witches, at least quite a
>number of them.
>
>Not that every single one of them would want to stay on active
>duty, nor be willing or able to put in the work required to unlock it.
> Few people have Mio Sakamoto's burning drive to stay in the game.
>But enough of them would, I suspect, that K-ryū, or a newly-named
>variant of it Mio may establish under her own name, could become a
>movement. That's potentially huge, it could change that entire
>world.

This occurred to me also, but so did a kind of a slight thematic problem I see with the... arc of UFG's involvement, so to speak.

Specifically, Mio's Earth is fighting a desperate battle against an alien invasion force! OK, makes sense. Random big time galactic hero arrives, helps out! With you so far. Finds his way home, content in the knowledge that the good fight is being fought!

...Well, maybe. Assuming that the state of the art in his home era isn't adequate to maintain regular contact, even though Saving A Planet From An Alien Invasion would otherwise be right up the Golden Age WDF's alley, it makes sense that they'd be unable to do more than send best wishes.

...But the sorcerous and technological resources available to UFG in the Future Imperfect era are substantially greater. It seems odd that it wouldn't occur to him to offer Mio's world more aid than he was able to lend her herself - although I grant that full details on that might be beyond the scope of a Brave and the Bold episode, I kind of picture a paragraph or so at the end where he's getting on the phone to a contact at the WDF and telling them to talk to Doctor Ravenhair and General Shinguuji about sending a Master Race task force to relieve a low-tech world under attack.

-----

"V, did you do something foolish?"

"Yes, and it was glorious."


#8, RE: New Tricks
Posted by Gryphon on Jan-04-15 at 10:20 PM
In response to message #7
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-15 AT 10:20 PM (EST)
 
>Finds his way home, content in
>the knowledge that the good fight is being fought!
>
>...Well, maybe. Assuming that the state of the art in his home era
>isn't adequate to maintain regular contact, even though Saving A
>Planet From An Alien Invasion would otherwise be right up the Golden
>Age WDF's alley, it makes sense that they'd be unable to do more than
>send best wishes.

Well, he has his swords with him during his original visit to 1943, so we can assume it was sometime after 2335 - well after the Golden Age WDF had gone the way of all things. Whether it was during the Exile or very early in FI (possibly between 2380 and 2388) I'm not certain of.

>I kind
>of picture a paragraph or so at the end where he's getting on the
>phone to a contact at the WDF and telling them to talk to Doctor
>Ravenhair and General Shinguuji about sending a Master Race task force
>to relieve a low-tech world under attack.

There are probably Rules about that, given that it's an interdimensional thing. (Also, he may not actually know how to get back, though one does suspect he knows people who could find it.) It might be possible to arrange some more subtle form of aid, but given how tense the situation is on Earth-332/S anyway, mounting what would amount to an obvious full-scale counterinvasion could well cause Further Panic.

That said, I rather doubt that this is the last we hear about the matter.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#9, RE: New Tricks
Posted by Nathan on Jan-04-15 at 10:31 PM
In response to message #8
>Well, he has his swords with him during his original visit to 1943, so
>we can assume it was sometime after 2335 - well after the Golden Age
>WDF had gone the way of all things. Whether it was during the Exile
>or very early in FI (possibly between 2380 and 2388) I'm not certain
>of.

Ah, I hadn't caught that detail. Oops! Mea culpa.

>There are probably Rules about that, given that it's an
>interdimensional thing. (Also, he may not actually know how to get
>back, though one does suspect he knows people who could find it.) It
>might be possible to arrange some more subtle form of aid, but given
>how tense the situation is on Earth-332/S anyway, mounting what would
>amount to an obvious full-scale counterinvasion could well cause
>Further Panic.

I'd figured it'd require running a mystic trace based on the connection to Reppenmaru Sakura picked up during its reforging, yeah. But, well, Skuld's perfectly capable of that.

>That said, I rather doubt that this is the last we hear about the
>matter.

Works for me!

-----

"V, did you do something foolish?"

"Yes, and it was glorious."


#10, RE: New Tricks
Posted by Gryphon on Jan-04-15 at 10:38 PM
In response to message #9
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-15 AT 10:38 PM (EST)
 
>I'd figured it'd require running a mystic trace based on the
>connection to Reppenmaru Sakura picked up during its reforging, yeah.
>But, well, Skuld's perfectly capable of that.

Possibly that, or I toyed with the notion of including a bit in which G goes back into the cabin and discovers that she's left her eyepatch behind, but I decided leaving him with the remark to Wolfgang about his plans for the next day flowed better. She may still have done so and we just didn't see it on TV.

(She has others at home. Heck, there's one episode where it gets destroyed and she has another one on her person at the time. Be prepared! :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#37, RE: New Tricks
Posted by Silversword on Jan-08-15 at 09:53 AM
In response to message #8

>Well, he has his swords with him during his original visit to 1943, so
>we can assume it was sometime after 2335 - well after the Golden Age
>WDF had gone the way of all things. Whether it was during the Exile
>or very early in FI (possibly between 2380 and 2388) I'm not certain
>of.

Pretty sure it'd have to be early FI. For it to have happened after his time on Sendai to have learnt "La Boheme", but before the events of Star-Crossed (apparantly a mere 3 years later)? I can't see UF!Gryph finding the time to be messing about with a jetpack, carrying a WDF challenge coin at all, and being something approximating cheerful in that time-span of the Exile. Early FI, messing about in the early stages of the pseudocontinent? Sure, that I can believe.


~Silv'


#38, RE: New Tricks
Posted by Gryphon on Jan-08-15 at 10:03 AM
In response to message #37
>carrying a WDF challenge coin at all

You know how sometimes you'll dig out a coat you haven't worn in ages and find money in it? (I love when that happens.) I suspect the challenge coin was like that - it happened to be in one of the pockets of that flight jacket, which he hadn't worn in quite some time.

You're right that jetting around in a jacket with a WDF Flight Test patch on it is an unlikely thing to have been doing in the Exile, but on the other hand, he did a lot of dumb things back then. :)

Anyway, it most probably was sometime in the early 2380s; I briefly had the vague notion that it could also have been during his stint on Earth in the early '50s, but that was before Aegis Florea and so cannot be the case.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#39, RE: New Tricks
Posted by BZArcher on Jan-08-15 at 10:15 AM
In response to message #38
I was thinking it was somewhere in that window between Kaitlyn's birth and Twilight. Probably mucking about with the jetpack that day because it strikes me as a VERY good stress relief device. :)

#11, RE: New Tricks
Posted by mouse_rr on Jan-04-15 at 11:38 PM
In response to message #5
being a big fan of Strike Witches i kinda figured they would fit nicely into the UF universe and i couldnt approve more at how it was done, including vividred was an added bonus.

while i enjoyed the 'propeller driven pants' line(truly glad i wasnt taking a drink or eating when i hit that part of the teaser) i think it is slightly inaccurate ... the striker units are more akin to propeller driven boots as they are technically thigh-highs and not a complete magic flying techno-sorcerous-pantaloons set but still Well Worth It.

i do hope there is more to come because, near as i can tell, technically pandoras box was flung open for their world with Mio's return. my understanding of the SW universe was that the Neuroi didnt adopt their modern technoform until the global tech level reached a point both conventional and magic-augmented weapon platforms came into play and the introduction of 2 new elements in an already dynamically shifting system would be very disruptive. the 'force teaching' change seems the most pronounced as initially it would be the most obvious. How many retired combat witches would, like Mio, jump at the chance to return to the fight they were forced to quit? considering the state of the war id wager a fair number.(i know this is addressed to a degree in the post i am replying to but it does represent a significant shift in their universe, also noted in the post)

the other change is her mindreading goggles ... it is obvious from the series that hard core tech is pushed and not always in Good Directions, her goggles represent the equivalent of an 'aliens crashed in the desert and we learned how to do Cool Things from the wreckage' event. If ordered by a higher-up-the-chain commander under the premise that it could give the war effort the edge needed to win would Mio refuse to hand over her Advance Eye Wear because of previous experiences with science pushed in Dangerous Directions or would she understand that such revolutionary tech could be as game-changing as the Magic Engine itself was? she herself might not understand the full impact of 'mind control hardware' but there are those who would and not all of them are 'friendly' towards witches.

1 of the more threatening 'unintended consequences' is kind of easy to see, if the Neuroi adapted to the advances in weaponry once then they would do so again especially something that is so out of place as that. one could envision that, since the Neuroi of their current time resemble technological systems comparable to weapons platform evolutions spanning the 50yr+ gap between our WWII and current times the _next_ Neuroi evolution might include things so advanced in design form they eclipse everything that came before. How would the witches handle a Star Destroyer class Neuroi? sure they have fought some Big iterations but a shift of several orders of magnitude is something else entirely.

however it goes i certainly look forward to it.


#12, RE: New Tricks
Posted by Gryphon on Jan-05-15 at 00:15 AM
In response to message #11
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-15 AT 00:16 AM (EST)
 
>while i enjoyed the 'propeller driven pants' line(truly glad i wasnt
>taking a drink or eating when i hit that part of the teaser) i think
>it is slightly inaccurate

In the Chief's defense, he was not exactly at the very top of his game right then. :)

>the other change is her mindreading goggles ... it is obvious from the
>series that hard core tech is pushed and not always in Good
>Directions, her goggles represent the equivalent of an 'aliens crashed
>in the desert and we learned how to do Cool Things from the wreckage'
>event.

Well... not really. There are three factors that argue against that conclusion.

The first is that it isn't obvious that they're as advanced as they are to anyone who isn't wearing them. It's not as if she turned up with, say, a Vindicator (wo)man-portable multibarrel rotary particle beam cannon. They would be significantly easier to keep on the QT than any overtly unearthly object.

The second is that, by that point in her career, Mio has lived through the Warlock incident and is soon to experience a modified version of the I Know, Let's Neuroi Up the Yamato incident. She knows all too well that a) the brass hungers for new toys and b) they never, ever use them right. If it absolutely came down to it, she'd dispose of them before she let those morons play with the underlying technology.

And the third is that, even if she didn't, they wouldn't get anywhere with it anyway, because the technology embodied in those goggles is both extremely subtle and, if you took it apart and started screwing around with it, quite delicate. They're ruggedized for field use and basically maintenance-free, but there are bits inside them that would be ruined very easily if they were removed, so all a 1940s military R&D laboratory could conceivably accomplish would be to break them. They wouldn't learn anything in the process. It'd be like giving Civil War-era gunsmiths a microchip. Even if they somehow figured out what it did, they'd destroy it in the process.

However, it's interesting that you should bring this problem up, because on a different scale, Gryphon and the 501st already had to deal with a similar problem during his first visit to their reality. There are a couple of allusions to it in New Tricks, but it wasn't really the place or time to go into it in detail. Suffice to say that there were certain elements in the Allied military structure who were very interested in the rumors they were hearing about some kind of "rocket man" who had informally joined the 501st. A significant percentage of G's spare time during his stay in 1943 was spent keeping those clowns from acquiring any solid evidence that he and his jetpack actually existed, and when that ultimately failed, preventing them from keeping said evidence long enough to act on it. (Hence Mio's remark about "what you and Sanya did to Allied G-2," that is to say, Military Intelligence.)

This is a topic that will come up again when he returns to 332/S, which - because I am the UF universe's King Canute, helpless before the tides - I'm already designing...

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#13, RE: New Tricks
Posted by mouse_rr on Jan-05-15 at 01:09 AM
In response to message #12

>In the Chief's defense, he was not exactly at the very top of his game
>right then. :)

a fair point and all things considered completely valid ... besides BAR or not Shirley is rather distracting flying pants or not.

>Well... not really. There are three factors that argue against that
>conclusion.
>
>The first is that it isn't obvious that they're as advanced as they
>are to anyone who isn't wearing them. It's not as if she turned up
>with, say, a Vindicator (wo)man-portable multibarrel rotary particle
>beam cannon. They would be significantly easier to keep on the QT
>than any overtly unearthly object.

this is the primary reason i dont think it would happen 'instantly' outside of Minna, who she would tell for reasons of full disclosure and security, few would be in a position to see them in use but with the profusion of technicians and service men, loyal to the witches and otherwise, someone outside the group would notice and questions would go up/down the command chain.

>The second is that, by that point in her career, Mio has lived through
>the Warlock incident and is soon to experience a modified version of
>the I Know, Let's Neuroi Up the Yamato incident. She knows all
>too well that a) the brass hungers for new toys and b) they never,
>ever use them right. If it absolutely came down to it, she'd dispose
>of them before she let those morons play with the underlying
>technology.
>
>And the third is that, even if she didn't, they wouldn't get anywhere
>with it anyway, because the technology embodied in those goggles is
>both extremely subtle and, if you took it apart and started screwing
>around with it, quite delicate. They're ruggedized for field use and
>basically maintenance-free, but there are bits inside them that would
>be ruined very easily if they were removed, so all a 1940s military
>R&D laboratory could conceivably accomplish would be to break them.
>They wouldn't learn anything in the process. It'd be like
>giving Civil War-era gunsmiths a microchip. Even if they somehow
>figured out what it did, they'd destroy it in the process.

the warlock/yamato cases are a bit counter to the argument they are used for considering the relatively fragile* and inherently hard to decipher nature of Neuroi Core Crystal but even without that constraint other issues crop up. 1 thing retroengineers do very well, in my limited experience with the field, is figure out how broken, damaged or otherwise nonfunctional hardware works and document _every_ aspect before they do anything that could further complicate the decon/recon effort. being given access to fully functional hardware a group who specialize in that would approach it very differently than the comparison you offer suggests. it is a valid comparison and the potential to screw up Important Fiddly Bits because they only had a hammer and not a Sonic Screwdriver is non-zero but in light of the next part of your response i would stipulate they would take such things into account and apply Other Resources to the task ... Ursula and her type of witch would conceivably be capable of deconstructing the entire system and blueprinting it in the process. after that its merely a matter of figuring out how to actually produce the micro/nano-electronics that would be involved.

>However, it's interesting that you should bring this problem up,
>because on a different scale, Gryphon and the 501st already had to
>deal with a similar problem during his first visit to their reality.
>There are a couple of allusions to it in New Tricks, but it
>wasn't really the place or time to go into it in detail. Suffice to
>say that there were certain elements in the Allied military structure
>who were very interested in the rumors they were hearing about some
>kind of "rocket man" who had informally joined the 501st. A
>significant percentage of G's spare time during his stay in 1943 was
>spent keeping those clowns from acquiring any solid evidence that he
>and his jetpack actually existed, and when that ultimately failed,
>preventing them from keeping said evidence long enough to act
>on it. (Hence Mio's remark about "what you and Sanya did to Allied
>G-2," that is to say, Military Intelligence.)

this part here lays the foundation for the whole Big Problem. anyone familiar with how a militarized government, especially a wartime established one, works knows that unless you destroy the _entire_ thing some subsection will return and they _will_ Make Plans and given the undeniable proof(wrecked M.I. facilities/research depts and anything related to a subject of particular interest and confirmed to be Fact by said destruct of...) that such tech exists anything that even hints at connections to said tech will inevitably draw the undivided attention of those groups who remember and covet what they were denied previously. they might even have partners among some of the support traditionally only given to witches ... namely witches in the chain of command who can be swayed by 'think of what this could mean for future witches and please ignore the dagger i have behind my back'

>This is a topic that will come up again when he returns to 332/S,
>which - because I am the UF universe's King Canute, helpless before
>the tides - I'm already designing...
>
>--G.

all that said i do get the angle you come at it from, i just dont happen to agree based on my understanding of their particularly skewed universe and the exceptional feats of engineering they accomplished using the limited understanding of O.T of course i do concede that it wouldnt be instant and the women of the 501st would not simply 'let it happen' if they could avoid it, given what you said bout Mio i could see her destroying the goggle set before willfully handing it over and outright theft would require something so far unprecedented in their universe thanks to her New Tricks, but the disruptive potential will remain as long as they exist. in the event that a Neuroi actually takes the sudden/startling advance in tech as an excuse to break out the next generation things could get very fugly very quickly.

*core crystals cant be _that_ durable if an embarrassed unpowered-butt-clench is all that is required to smash a tiny 1


#14, RE: New Tricks
Posted by Gryphon on Jan-05-15 at 01:14 AM
In response to message #13
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-15 AT 01:15 AM (EST)
 
... I fear you may be examining the matter too closely. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#15, RE: New Tricks
Posted by mouse_rr on Jan-05-15 at 01:39 AM
In response to message #14
>... I fear you may be examining the matter too closely. :)
>
>--G.
>-><-
>Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
>Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
>zgryphon at that email service Google has
>Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

that is entirely possible but it isnt something i can really turn off (i have a tendency to analyze down to minutia because i like theorizing/extrapolating as many potential outcomes as possible, makes writing a _lot_ more complicated for me which is why i am rather slow at it)... to be fair though it _is_ how these things tend to go and in very nearly every case of similar real or fictional it is usually those Little Things that end up causing the Biggest Problems.

>^.^<


#16, RE: New Tricks
Posted by Peter Eng on Jan-05-15 at 02:25 AM
In response to message #12
>
>This is a topic that will come up again when he returns to 332/S,
>which - because I am the UF universe's King Canute, helpless before
>the tides - I'm already designing...
>

This sounds fun. And depending on when he goes there, he may have considerable expertise on dimensional travel available to assist him.

Peter Eng
--
Insert humorous comment here.


#18, RE: New Tricks
Posted by CdrMike on Jan-05-15 at 03:04 AM
In response to message #11
>the 'force teaching' change
>seems the most pronounced as initially it would be the most obvious.
>How many retired combat witches would, like Mio, jump at the chance to
>return to the fight they were forced to quit? considering the state of
>the war id wager a fair number.(i know this is addressed to a degree
>in the post i am replying to but it does represent a significant shift
>in their universe, also noted in the post)

Thing is, you're talking about Mio Sakamoto, a woman who is a warrior through and through. She has time and again gone to extreme lengths to avoid being sidelined and being stuck in a classroom to help witches who are either nearing or have already reached the point where their powers have failed them would simply not fly (no pun intended). She might even be willing to court open insubordination just to avoid being taken away from the fight. No, the only way I could see it working is if she successfully passed on what she's learned to another witch who would then take her place as teacher.

>the other change is her mindreading goggles ... it is obvious from the
>series that hard core tech is pushed and not always in Good
>Directions, her goggles represent the equivalent of an 'aliens crashed
>in the desert and we learned how to do Cool Things from the wreckage'
>event. If ordered by a higher-up-the-chain commander under the premise
>that it could give the war effort the edge needed to win would Mio
>refuse to hand over her Advance Eye Wear because of previous
>experiences with science pushed in Dangerous Directions or would she
>understand that such revolutionary tech could be as game-changing as
>the Magic Engine itself was? she herself might not understand the full
>impact of 'mind control hardware' but there are those who would and
>not all of them are 'friendly' towards witches.

I'm reminded of a scene from a book in the Axis of Time trilogy by John Birmingham. The books dealt with an international naval taskforce from 2021 ending up in 1942, on the cusp of the Battle of Midway. While the Allies get the bulk of the ships and thus advanced tech, the Axis powers each get a ship from the future to tear apart. The scene in question involved an engineer being called before Himmler to be set on the task of reverse-engineering the tech they've acquired.

The engineer notes that, despite his superior's belief, reverse-engineering is not as simple as taking something apart to see what makes it tick. He uses a "flexipad," an equivalent of an iPad, to explain the difficulty of the task. Just the casing of the device represents decades of research and development, something that Germany of 1942 couldn't hope to duplicate just from studying it. They could learn from it, whether through study of it or from the data stored on it, and improve what they have, but it would be decades before they could hope to replicate it.


#19, RE: New Tricks
Posted by mouse_rr on Jan-05-15 at 04:15 AM
In response to message #18
>Thing is, you're talking about Mio Sakamoto, a woman who is a warrior
>through and through. She has time and again gone to extreme lengths
>to avoid being sidelined and being stuck in a classroom to help
>witches who are either nearing or have already reached the point where
>their powers have failed them would simply not fly (no pun intended).
>She might even be willing to court open insubordination just to avoid
>being taken away from the fight. No, the only way I could see it
>working is if she successfully passed on what she's learned to another
>witch who would then take her place as teacher.

while i agree on most particulars she was shown to be an instructor type both in the anime and in this incarnation, how much of that she is in the story is up for debate but courting the idea of teaching Yoshika indicates the idea has some appeal even if it is only to 1 person. also victories of the 501st aside the war appears to be roughly at a stalemate, they wipe out 1 hive and another appears elsewhere or, in the case of the Romagna campaign a bigger more dangerous model appears preventing a split faction from establishing lines of communication. if it improves the chances of victory for the allies and bolsters their forces at that time and into the future i doubt she would seriously object to training during downtime. it would necessarily be slower than dedicated training but with the total number of combat capable witches low due to attrition from multiple factors i dont see her dodging out, she wouldnt likely be grounded outright for refusing but she could be reassigned to other regions more removed from the front lines, still within useful range where needed but her value as a new type of combat witch she is a resource that couldnt be squandered. the top brass would have no objection to doing whatever it took to get her to increase the military might, at least that is the read i got from the way the military leadership in her universe works.

>The engineer notes that, despite his superior's belief,
>reverse-engineering is not as simple as taking something apart to see
>what makes it tick. He uses a "flexipad," an equivalent of an iPad,
>to explain the difficulty of the task. Just the casing of the device
>represents decades of research and development, something that Germany
>of 1942 couldn't hope to duplicate just from studying it. They could
>learn from it, whether through study of it or from the data stored on
>it, and improve what they have, but it would be decades before they
>could hope to replicate it.

this would be a valid argument in a more ordinary universe where tech is limited to 'real world rules' but in a world where various magic types exist and a fusion of tech and magic is practical the only limitation is a lack of knowledge on how some materials are fabricated. as i explained in my other reply there are ways of mitigating such a deficiency. the right kind of magic could easily detail the methods of production which a witch might not understand but an engineer would. without more detail on what witches are capable of in those terms it isnt really possible to say either way but it cant be ruled out. if the entire resource base of a sufficiently motivated nation are thrown into such a project the time to develop the necessary processes can be dramatically shortened. it really depends entirely on how much is dedicated to the task, there would be a period of very slow progress but as certain fundamentals are worked out the progression period would accelerate. the jet striker is a fairly good example, it took a notable amount of time to develop from the piston and prop striker to the jet but once developed the jets development accelerated to a point it was a viable tool in just a few months from its disastrous near fatal for the pilot introduction.

ill grant that a moderate period between initial research and initial production attempts would exist and it could possibly take a fairly long time but i think the r&d teams at the disposal of the allied military are better than they are generally credited for. they figured out how to harness an entirely alien power that had no 'real-world' equivalent and no obvious interface mechanism and while it went out of control it was fully functional and exceeded expectations. within a year they had taken the results of that same system and developed a practical, completely controllable variant with a much greater potential and integrated it with a preexisting system. in the yamato case the system worked exactly as planned and it was only ineffective because it was used against something so far beyond the scope of their imagination that it didnt really stand a chance from inception. in the UF version these events may not play out the same so it is purely speculation but if the Neuroi retain the ability to incorporate a witch and utilize her shield, even a witch who was essentially powerless, the motivation to throw whatever resources required at technological advances would greatly reduce the r&d time.

of course this is all based on the premise that the brass are the same level of ratbastard as seen in the source material. if they are, they would have no objection to doing Whatever It Takes to advance their chance of victory. the source material version continued working with a system that could be turned against them, confident in the belief that their understanding and control of such an advanced tech would be the ultimate solution not the witches who actually defeated the threat made worse by their effort.


#20, RE: New Tricks
Posted by Gryphon on Jan-05-15 at 04:39 AM
In response to message #19
Oh, for pity's sake. The goggles aren't going to destabilize the world. She'll just tell people they're magical. Under Clarke's Law, that isn't even really lying.

--G.
That will teach ME to toss in a stylish new accessory on the spur of the moment.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#21, RE: New Tricks
Posted by CdrMike on Jan-05-15 at 04:54 AM
In response to message #20
>Oh, for pity's sake. The goggles aren't going to destabilize the
>world. She'll just tell people they're magical. Under Clarke's Law,
>that isn't even really lying.

I'd considered a long and detailed reply, but that's as good a reply as any. "How do they work?" "Rather well, thank you."


#22, RE: New Tricks
Posted by Matrix Dragon on Jan-05-15 at 04:58 AM
In response to message #20
>That will teach ME to toss in a stylish new accessory on the spur of
>the moment.

Stylish AND practical. But then, I'm a sucker for a woman in goggles.

Matrix Dragon, J. Random Nutter


#25, RE: New Tricks
Posted by mouse_rr on Jan-05-15 at 01:01 PM
In response to message #20
oi, i figure i made it clear that it was just a potential issue i saw and why. we have real world example of 'inexplicable to lesser developed cultures' tech causing great disruption here (radio gods anyone?) i did particularly like the idea personally but i also look at this kinds of things from a decidedly different perspective. i cant help that unintended consequences of good intentions trigger the 'what if...' train of thought, st:tos set that firmly in mind and it has been a meter i apply liberally.

*shrug* i dont like having to stick with 'that was cool cant wait for moar' and being the type that usually enjoys debate on potential 'what if...'s i find it somewhat disappointing that this is the kind of reaction given. yeah in some view i may over-analyze but for me, thats a big part of the fun. i can say i wont be making this mistake again.


#29, RE: New Tricks
Posted by BZArcher on Jan-05-15 at 04:37 PM
In response to message #25
Well, bless your heart.

#30, RE: New Tricks
Posted by Gryphon on Jan-05-15 at 05:30 PM
In response to message #25
>being the type that usually enjoys debate on potential 'what
>if...'s i find it somewhat disappointing that this is the kind of
>reaction given.

Hmm... maybe it's just your tone and/or my perception of same, then; it comes across less as "so it's occurred to me that there might be some fallout here" and more as "here's what you have to do next," particularly after the first round. That... really doesn't work for me as a reader feedback mode. I like discussions - they can be interesting - but what you're doing is throwing up these giant walls of text, as if trying to win the argument through fatigue as much as anything else, when in my mind there wasn't even an argument to be had in the first place.

So when I said, "Nah, the goggles aren't going to cause a significant problem, and here are the reasons why not," that wasn't an indication that I needed to be convinced that they were going to; it was me trying to be reassuring that the worst-case scenarios you were picturing weren't going to unfold. They very generally don't around here. UF isn't that kind of setting and I'm not that kind of storyteller. Things may get complicated in ways that the characters didn't expect from time to time, but I'm not into butterfly-causes-hurricane outcomes.

In the old days of the forum, we had a metaphor for that: "looking for meat in the produce aisle."

>yeah in some view i may over-analyze but for me, thats
>a big part of the fun. i can say i wont be making this mistake again.

I hate to discourage anyone from taking part - the Forum's been pretty quiet lately and it gets me down a little. On the other hand, if you came in expecting to find the kind of SF universe where well-meaning minor gestures do lead to disaster, well... you're probably going to be pretty consistently disappointed, both with the lack of said outcomes and with the fact that we're not really interested in having them proposed. Sorry, but that's how it is.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#23, RE: New Tricks
Posted by BZArcher on Jan-05-15 at 08:35 AM
In response to message #19
1) BREATHE, son! You keep talking like that you'll pass out.

2) One of the nice things for us (and, indeed, for the original author) is that the rat bastard types in the brass only get to be as competent (or incompentent!) as the plot needs them to be.

Kick back. Relax. Have a homebrew. Wait, that's the wrong book.

Anyway, point is, if we don't want the awesome and stylish goggles to become world destablizing technology? They probably won't.

Now, as G mentioned, his Jetpack? Well, that's another show...


#31, RE: New Tricks
Posted by The Traitor on Jan-05-15 at 06:04 PM
In response to message #23
>1) BREATHE, son! You keep talking like that you'll pass out.

And That's Terrible.

For real, though, there's a difference between analyzing and paranoia. I think there is potential for this to be destabilizing... assuming that everyone involved, including Mio, is a sufficient calibre of idiot. Broom Handle over there seems to disregard this assumption in favour of a HELP HELP THE SKY IS FALLING deal in which giving one cavemen a musket kills everyone ever. Time and linear causality don't work that way in reality, they don't work that way in pessimistic sci-fi, and they definitely don't work that way in the kind of optimistic pulpy Boy's Own Adventure story that UF is trying to be.

Simply put, have a cup of tea and calm down a bit. The sky is not falling, nor is it going to fall. If something goes wrong in UF, it's so that somebody can fix it. Heroically. Usually by punching Akio Ohtori in the face a bunch.

---
"She's old, she's lame, she's barren too, // "She's not worth feed or hay, // "But I'll give her this," - he blew smoke at me - // "She was something in her day." -- Garnet Rogers, Small Victory

FiMFiction.net: we might accept blatant porn involving the cast of My Little Pony but as God is my witness we have standards.


#40, RE: New Tricks
Posted by jhosmer1 on Dec-07-16 at 10:41 AM
In response to message #5
>>It's a common trend, in reality and fiction, that in situations like
>>the one Mio was in, that the only 'realistic' option is for her to
>>come to terms with the fact she'd never fight again, she'd never be
>>able to fly, and try to find something else that gives her life
>>meaning.
>
>I know, right?
>
>(spoilers for Strike Witches the Movie below;

<Space kept spoiler free>

> Not in my house. Not for a
>character as awesome as her.

I just watched the Strike Witches movie the other day, and your post here helped clear up some confusion about where OWaW Mio and Canonical Mio diverge (though her choice of transport could have been necessary to deliver that package to Yoshika).

I take it that New Tricks takes place before Operation Mars in SW2, as I noticed a very familiar confrontation between Mio and Minna there (Mio flying out for one last time, only to nearly hit Minna at the hangar doors)? Your scene was a lot better in its resolution.

Still, watching the Movie after reading OWaW, I could help but exclaim when Yoshika recovered her magic "Damn, Yoshika just tapped the Force big-time." :) If she ever attends Zauberschule, I expect there's not much she'll need to learn.

I also felt Mio channeled a bit of Egg Shen with her (non)explanation of the arrival of the "Artillery Support" at the end. ("How'd you do that?" "Wasn't easy!") (My wife, who has been to Germany, notes that the Rhine can be jumped across at points, but, hey, magic.)

Now 5 episodes into Brave Witches, and Nipa's already lost at least one Striker unit (to locusts! in Orussia! in Fall/Winter!)


#6, RE: New Tricks
Posted by TheOtherSean on Jan-04-15 at 08:32 PM
In response to message #0
I totally enjoyed it, and I've only hear of Strike Witches, not seen it, so I'd chalk this one up as another success. Nice.

#17, RE: New Tricks
Posted by CdrMike on Jan-05-15 at 02:38 AM
In response to message #0
I had that strong suspicion as I discussed the series with Gryphon that the seed had been planted to "put right what once went wrong." When I saw his reaction to the injustice of The Movie, that suspicion turned into an assurance that he was hatching a plan. So when I started reading "New Tricks," I was thrilled to see that yet another badly treated character had been given the much-needed love that UF offers so many. My hat is off to you, sir.


#24, RE: New Tricks
Posted by TsukaiStarburst on Jan-05-15 at 12:52 PM
In response to message #0
I feel as if I'm missing something here, w/rt to that bit right at the end of the fic. Exactly how much of what happened was actually (meta?)fictional and what wasn't?

#26, RE: New Tricks
Posted by BZArcher on Jan-05-15 at 01:02 PM
In response to message #24
All of the Brave and the Bold stories are in-universe TV show versions of real events. Sort of like "Real Stories of the Highway Patrol", but with more giant robots and badassery.

In the paticular case of New Tricks, the major events (Mio getting a new lease on life by being trained in K-ryuu, Sakura helping her forge a new blade and reforging Reppumaru, etx), all happened. But it's entirely possible that quite a bit of the timeline was compressed, or that some of these events happened a bit out of order, because it all has to be fit into a 60 minute (well, OK, 44 minutes with commercials) broadcasting block.


#27, RE: New Tricks
Posted by Gryphon on Jan-05-15 at 01:03 PM
In response to message #24
>I feel as if I'm missing something here, w/rt to that bit right at the
>end of the fic. Exactly how much of what happened was actually
>(meta?)fictional and what wasn't?

That is deliberately a bit ambiguous, but, as the memo states, all the key events depicted did happen - just possibly not exactly where, when, or in the precise order depicted. The exact variances are undefined so there's room for adjustment later, if need be.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#28, RE: New Tricks
Posted by Arashi on Jan-05-15 at 02:11 PM
In response to message #27
>That is deliberately a bit ambiguous, but, as the memo states, all the
>key events depicted did happen

Only with, alas, less kissing then was depicted.


#32, RE: New Tricks
Posted by Gryphon on Jan-06-15 at 01:48 AM
In response to message #28
>>That is deliberately a bit ambiguous, but, as the memo states, all the
>>key events depicted did happen
>
>Only with, alas, less kissing then was depicted.

Well, it's important to keep in mind that G's note is a script review - the almost-final "final" rev of the teleplay he was responding to contained at least one kiss that was omitted from the episode as ultimately televised (and is therefore not in the story). The B&tB writers are forever doing that - got to keep the target demo happy, after all. With a bit of consideration, I bet the sharp-eyed viewer can even guess what scene it was in! :)

In fairness to the writers, most of the kisses that finally aired did actually happen (including all of the "incidental" ones, i.e., on the cheek, forehead etc.); G's recommendations chiefly (as it were) involved the omissions of gratuitous snogs and one incongruously patronizing gesture (finger-to-lips for "say no more" - anyone not Minna-Dietlinde Wilcke who attempts to do that to Mio had best be prepared to duck).

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#33, RE: New Tricks
Posted by Matrix Dragon on Jan-06-15 at 03:21 AM
In response to message #32
>anyone not
>Minna-Dietlinde Wilcke who attempts to do that to Mio had best be
>prepared to duck).

I'm suddenly reminded of the time the Eleventh Doctor got too caught up in the moment and kissed Jenny. He forgot to duck (Or knowing Eleven, probably never even realized he should).

Matrix Dragon, J. Random Nutter


#34, RE: New Tricks
Posted by SpottedKitty on Jan-06-15 at 05:23 PM
In response to message #0
A couple of notes for the amusement/bemusement of the gang:

I was trawling YouTube for clips last night, and (of course) came across the inevitable "Hitler rants about Strike Witches" mashup. My brain hurts. ;)

Also, if you google "propeller-driven pants" the first hit is a Wiki article on the fastest propeller-driven planes. It's not there any more, but the first time I looked, I saw a little note at the end of the google excerpt: "Missing - pants"...

--
Unable to save the day: File is read-only.


#35, RE: New Tricks
Posted by Gryphon on Jan-06-15 at 06:26 PM
In response to message #34
>Also, if you google "propeller-driven pants"

Why would you do that.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#36, RE: New Tricks
Posted by Nova Floresca on Jan-06-15 at 07:40 PM
In response to message #35
>>Also, if you google "propeller-driven pants"
>
>Why would you do that.

Idle hands are the devil's playthings? (Likewise, C-4 is the devil's play-doh.)

"This is probably a stupid question, but . . ."