>The point I'm trying to edge around to is I'm wondering if Bill Clark
>has the power to come at the IPO sideways now that he's in the big
>chair. Do shit like reduce the Federation share of their funding, hold
>hearing after hearing after hearing (forcing valuable Lensmen to be
>tied up endlessly in Paris) other stuff like that. The EA already
>withdrew from the Accords; engineering a complete Federation
>withdrawal from them as well would doubtless be quite satisfying to
>him.
>

"We should be separate from the WDF - they're needed as they
are, and there are plenty of other officers who deserve a shot at the
top. It ought to be separate from the 3WA too, and from any
corporation - its own oversight, its own sanction, everything."

I have no idea what is in the International Police Accords, but given that this is the base idea, I doubt that there's anything that Clark can do in terms of wrecking their funding, and having its own oversight suggests that he can't take them to court in Paris, although he might be able to tie people up in Zeta Cygni.

Funding is actually the least likely point of vulnerability.

Remember, Zoner handed out enough stock to make Juri independently wealthy without blinking. Gryphon is probably less well-off, since his time in the Exile was a bit leaner, but he's still reasonably supplied with cash - if his pack-rat ways extend to money, he probably had to spend several months closing all the bank accounts he established over the course of the Exile. Even if he didn't, the bounty (bounties?) for bringing in the Butcher of Musashi is impressive seed money. Kei and Yuri probably have a fair chunk of change as well. Add GENOM's petty cash into the mix, and that's quite the load of bread.

Then consider that these are just the people that are very likely to have contributed. Redneck? The Autobots? The Sterling family? Possible, although not certain.

President Clark might be able to push the IPO out of Federation space, and deny them access for anything outside of a "hot pursuit" condition, but I doubt that something intended to be proof against external manipulation will be easy to disrupt.

As for coming at Gryphon sideways, the last time was a brilliantly crafted psy-op that took several years of preparation, and was aimed specifically at the WDF, combined with a military strike timed to catch them at their weakest.

From where I sit, it seems more likely that the intent is to have Gryphon out of the way, and have the Federation "collapse from internal stresses."

Peter Eng
--
Insert humorous comment here.

>"We should be separate from the WDF - they're needed as they
>are, and there are plenty of other officers who deserve a shot at the
>top. It ought to be separate from the 3WA too, and from any
>corporation - its own oversight, its own sanction, everything."

I recall that quote well, but... I mean, how do you get people to agree to that?

As I said, MegaZone is a supremely gifted diplomat, and Gryphon is an intergalactic hero of wide renown, but... well. All I can say is that if I were a policymaker in a star nation, and someone came and said "Hey, we're starting a pan-galactic law enforcement organization" I'd be very interested; but my interest would rapidly wane if it were followed up by "You will have no oversight or, indeed, formal input over this organization, but you'll also have to give it full authority to operate within your borders with law enforcement powers. Oh, and the IPO gets to decide how it interprets the law, not your own courts."

That's going to be a hard sell. People who have a personal relationship with Gryphon AND can exercise unilateral control over the levers of state (like Asriel) will be happy to sign on the dotted line. But... I mean, I have trouble seeing the same EA that was happy to pass the Psi Act also signing the Accords if they weren't going to have input or oversight into the IPO.

But as I said, I've got no idea what's in those Accords.

(The real-life Interpol, I will note, is run collectively by the contributing countries. The President of the United States can't exercise direct control over it, it's an independent organization, but he can pull their funding, he can tell the US representative to it to kick up a fuss, he could tell domestic LEO's to stop cooperating with it.)

>Remember, Zoner handed out enough stock to make Juri independently
>wealthy without blinking. Gryphon is probably less well-off, since
>his time in the Exile was a bit leaner, but he's still reasonably
>supplied with cash - if his pack-rat ways extend to money, he probably
>had to spend several months closing all the bank accounts he
>established over the course of the Exile. Even if he didn't, the
>bounty (bounties?) for bringing in the Butcher of Musashi is
>impressive seed money. Kei and Yuri probably have a fair chunk of
>change as well. Add GENOM's petty cash into the mix, and that's quite
>the load of bread.

Oh, I don't think he can completely defund them. But assuming the IPO is funded by streams coming from multiple sources (again, like Interpol) it would probably inconvenience them a bit if the Federation stopped contributing.

Although he'd have to get something like that through the assembly, one imagines. Politically speaking, Bill Clark is likely to not have a real strong mandate (and good luck getting re-elected), which means he'd have to confine his fuckery to things that the Office of the President controls rather than things the Federation Assembly controls.

>President Clark might be able to push the IPO out of Federation space,

What I'm imagining is that he does things like "discourage" Federation-controlled agencies from cooperating with the IPO. He probably can't just order them not to do so (that'd likely be grounds for impeachment) but... well.

>From where I sit, it seems more likely that the intent is to have
>Gryphon out of the way, and have the Federation "collapse from
>internal stresses."

This would, in my mind, qualify as 'coming at Gryphon sideways.' Bill Clark's current ascension is probably also a carefully crafted conspiracy many years in the making.

Basically, trying to blow Gryphon and assorted Gryphon-like people up is a mugs game. It never works and just about everyone who has ever tried has ended up dead, humiliated, or both. If you want him and his buddies out of your way, the only thing that's EVER even come close to working is kicking his legs out from underneath him. One assumed that if Clark both considers Gryphon an enemy and is at all smart, THAT'S what he'll try doing.

-Merc
Keep Rat

LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-13 AT 00:55 AM (EDT)
 
>>"We should be separate from the WDF - they're needed as they
>>are, and there are plenty of other officers who deserve a shot at the
>>top. It ought to be separate from the 3WA too, and from any
>>corporation - its own oversight, its own sanction, everything."
>
>I recall that quote well, but... I mean, how do you get people to
>agree to that?
>
>As I said, MegaZone is a supremely gifted diplomat, and Gryphon is an
>intergalactic hero of wide renown, but... well. All I can say is that
>if I were a policymaker in a star nation, and someone came and said
>"Hey, we're starting a pan-galactic law enforcement organization" I'd
>be very interested; but my interest would rapidly wane if it were
>followed up by "You will have no oversight or, indeed, formal input
>over this organization, but you'll also have to give it full authority
>to operate within your borders with law enforcement powers. Oh, and
>the IPO gets to decide how it interprets the law, not your own
>courts."
>
>That's going to be a hard sell. People who have a personal
>relationship with Gryphon AND can exercise unilateral control over the
>levers of state (like Asriel) will be happy to sign on the dotted
>line. But... I mean, I have trouble seeing the same EA that was happy
>to pass the Psi Act also signing the Accords if they weren't going to
>have input or oversight into the IPO.
>
>But as I said, I've got no idea what's in those Accords.

I'd presume that the way it was sold was largely on some scenario similar to that which lead to the creation of the Lensmen in the original novels:

What do you do if someone commits a murder, takes a ride on a hypership and ends up gods only knows where outside the jurisdiction of your own police? What recourse do the Federation law enforcers have if someone commits a crime and goes to hide out in the Gamilon or Romulan Empire where they don't have an extradition treaty (and the Gamilons, Romulans, whatever may not even consider what was done to be criminal)?

Well now you can post the details to the IPO who, after due consideration*, will turn loose the Lensmen to find and if necessary apprehend your perp' and hand them over to your judicial system. Quite possibly over the howling protests (or armed resistance) of the local law enforcement if that law enforcement isn't a signatory.

Now granted many governments will find it frustrating that their PsiCops/Obsidian order/Gestapo-equivalent of choice cannot simply turn the IPO loose on some targets just because the neo-hippy-in-charge (look at his hair! the kilt!) happens for some reason to believe that being a non-enslaved psionic and saying nasty things about/to elected officials aren't crimes. However it still may be worth it for two reasons:

1. It's that many fewer murderers and rapists that you don't wind up having to deniably pay bounty hunters to go after, letting you focus your extra-legal efforts on those crimes the IPO won't chase.

2. If you are a signatory then presumably the IPO can and will just extradite foreign criminals legally from you, without them going in and snatching the perp**. Something that they're probably highly prone to.

* "Is there reasonable cause to believe that this guy should be put on trial for this crime?" "Is this actually a crime in our eyes?"

** Many governments would probably prefer to cut down the number of high-speed chases through their cities by their law enforcement in pursuit of Lensmen with abducted foreign criminals. It's very cinematic but also expensive.

>...
>
>Well now you can post the details to the IPO who, after due
>consideration*, will turn loose the Lensmen to find and if necessary
>apprehend your perp' and hand them over to your judicial system. Quite
>possibly over the howling protests (or armed resistance) of the local
>law enforcement if that law enforcement isn't a signatory.

Do the Lensman actually work that way in UF? I mean, that seems like a really great way to start a war. In fact, if I recall correctly the IPO makes a huge, big deal (publicly, at least) over not going where they aren't wanted; when the EA kicked them out they were like "Well, we hope you'll reconsider, but sure, we won't operate in Earth Alliance space anymore."

(That's an agreement honored more in the breach than in actual observance, granted, but it's not like the EA has precisely held up it's end of the bargain either.)

>2. If you are a signatory then presumably the IPO can and will just
>extradite foreign criminals legally from you, without them going in
>and snatching the perp**. Something that they're probably highly prone
>to.

I could just not be a very close reader, but it doesn't seem like habitually pissing off governments by openly committing acts of war is something the Lensmen DO a lot. Much like regular police, they seem like a very reactive organization.

-Merc
Keep Rat

LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-13 AT 12:23 PM (EDT)
 
I get the feeling that Ben and Zoner were rather careful about their timing of approaching certain governments, and made considerable use of the wave of approval that rose for themselves and the WDF in general in the wake of the victory over Largo. They acquired (and leveraged) some pretty big prestige there, and in their efforts to help rebuild afterwards, and may well have spent a good chunk of it getting the IPO accords in place.

>I recall that quote well, but... I mean, how do you get people to
>agree to that?

Wasn't easy.

>I have trouble seeing the same EA that was happy
>to pass the Psi Act also signing the Accords if they weren't going to
>have input or oversight into the IPO.

Wasn't the same EA; almost twenty years earlier. Nobody involved in the ratification process still in office by 2406, when, you'll notice, the Clark administration withdrew the Alliance from the arrangement.

>Oh, I don't think he can completely defund them. But assuming the IPO
>is funded by streams coming from multiple sources (again, like
>Interpol) it would probably inconvenience them a bit if the Federation
>stopped contributing.

I got nothin' for you here. You know one of the few things that interest me less than politics? Economics, particularly on a large scale.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

>>Oh, I don't think he can completely defund them. But assuming the IPO
>>is funded by streams coming from multiple sources (again, like
>>Interpol) it would probably inconvenience them a bit if the Federation
>>stopped contributing.
>
>I got nothin' for you here. You know one of the few things that
>interest me less than politics? Economics, particularly on a large
>scale.

I would think that the more EA and the Federation remove funding from the IPO, the more other states like the Gamalons would contribute because the IPO is still keeping a close eye on them.

Michael C. Fortner
"Maxim 37: There is no such thing as "overkill".
There is only "open fire" and "I need to reload".

>
>Oh, I don't think he can completely defund them. But assuming the IPO
>is funded by streams coming from multiple sources (again, like
>Interpol) it would probably inconvenience them a bit if the Federation
>stopped contributing.
>

Well, if they set it up right, it inconveniences the IPO just enough to make them not operate in the Federation...which, big surprise, is pretty much what would happen if the Federation withdrew from the IPO Accords.

>
>>From where I sit, it seems more likely that the intent is to have
>>Gryphon out of the way, and have the Federation "collapse from
>>internal stresses."
>
>This would, in my mind, qualify as 'coming at Gryphon sideways.' Bill
>Clark's current ascension is probably also a carefully crafted
>conspiracy many years in the making.
>

Well, if the Earth Alliance is Gryphon...

I'll allow that Gryph has a certain interest in Earth - as he says in Shepard's 11, he was born there. But the forces working to collapse the EA aren't really aimed at Gryphon. They're looking to avoid being noticed by him and the IPO, but they aren't targeting him - or, at least, they aren't targeting him yet.

>Basically, trying to blow Gryphon and assorted Gryphon-like people up
>is a mugs game. It never works and just about everyone who has ever
>tried has ended up dead, humiliated, or both. If you want him and his
>buddies out of your way, the only thing that's EVER even come close to
>working is kicking his legs out from underneath him. One assumed that
>if Clark both considers Gryphon an enemy and is at all smart, THAT'S
>what he'll try doing.
>

Well, yes. But if the plan isn't aimed at doing anything except destroying the EA, and possibly the Federation, why attack Gryph at all? Just arrange things so he can't intervene without effectively becoming what his detractors claim he is, and he won't do a thing.

Of course, I don't know Clark's motivations any more than you do. Maybe all he wants is to be big frog in a small pond. Maybe it's "Today, the EA; tomorrow, the Federation; next month, the galaxy." Or, maybe he's a pawn of one of Surtur's pawns, and this is all part of the process of burning everything down.

Regardless, the tools he has to affect the IPO are, as far as I can tell, no better than "Go away, kid, you bother me." If he uses anything more than that, he's effectively waving a big sign that says, "HI! I'M NOT JUST A EGOMANIACAL POLITICIAN, I'M SOMETHING MORE! INVESTIGATE ME!" The Danzig being destroyed is a bit of a red flag in itself; doing any more than that is pushing his luck.

Peter Eng
--
Insert humorous comment here.

>Regardless, the tools he has to affect the IPO are, as far as I can
>tell, no better than "Go away, kid, you bother me." If he uses
>anything more than that, he's effectively waving a big sign that says,
>"HI! I'M NOT JUST A EGOMANIACAL POLITICIAN, I'M SOMETHING MORE!
>INVESTIGATE ME!" The Danzig being destroyed is a bit of a red
>flag in itself; doing any more than that is pushing his luck.
>
>Peter Eng
>--
>Insert humorous comment here.

For all we know - and judging from some of the WOTR stuff this may well be more accurate than I think - Clark is SUPPOSED to be a big sign saying "Hi, I'm not just an egomaniacal politician, investigate me!".

Palpatine, for example, may well have his fingers up Clark's back pulling strings and going "Hey, Wedge Rats, Look! A Distraction!".

>
>For all we know - and judging from some of the WOTR stuff this may
>well be more accurate than I think - Clark is SUPPOSED to be a big
>sign saying "Hi, I'm not just an egomaniacal politician, investigate
>me!".
>
>Palpatine, for example, may well have his fingers up Clark's back
>pulling strings and going "Hey, Wedge Rats, Look! A Distraction!".
>

Well, that's true enough. However, most people don't make plans that involve potentially dying in order to be a distraction. I'm assuming that Clark's idea of how the plan works ends with him in power, rather than dying, rotting in prison, or fleeing justice in a warp-capable shuttle.

Peter Eng
--
Insert humorous comment here.

The most practical way would probably be to make the IPO jump through all manner of hurdles to the point where they couldn't do their job effectively. Especially with EA-Psi Corp and IPO pretty much have two separate areas where they can enforce laws. He could "encourage" Federation member states to enact laws that would limit or end the requirement that they share information or work with the IPO.

Or he could simply force the IPO to file a SNO (Statement of No Objection) if they want to cross into or conduct law inforcement in Federation space -OR- on vessels with Federation registry.

A hot pursuit condition allows you to only go so far. Chasing Batarian Pirates As they cross from say, Zetan controlled space to {insert non affiliated governing body here} controlled space all is well, at least for a few parsecs. Chasing Batarian Pirates from Zetan to Sol and crossing into Earth Orbit or actually chasing them onto Earth... well good luck trying to prosecute that.

Of course this is all meta interpretation of real life law/jurisdictional issues superimposed on UF. But hey, fuel for the discussion right? :)