Megatron and other Transformers change not only the shape of their bodies through reconfiguration, but change the size of individual parts and even the shapes of those individual parts at times. Or even call up entirely _new_ parts (Prime's Trailer) It's not just a simple mechanical transformation in many cases, like a Valkyrie or Alpha. I've read references to subspace - pulling of mass out of subspace and dumping of same in order to change mass and such.

It doesn't seem such a stretch, all things considered, for Tiny Robo and Lesser Mazinger to have such abilities built in to them. Or modified to add them later. This is Corwin who built them after all. The son of the Norn of Technology. And Cybertron would seem like a natural favorite of Skuld to keep an eye on...

Who wants to lay money on Robo and Mazinger turning into MUCH larger versions of themselves at some future date?

(Utena: "Tiny...er...eep!.. Ah...GIANT Robo!! CRUSH!!"
(Robo: "URRR!!")

-Logan
(No. I haven't seen Godzilla Vs. Megalon recently. Nope. Not at all...^_^;)
-------------------------------------
"I need to selectively edit my mental images.
Please hand me a fork."

William K. "Bushmaster" Bushway
-------------------------------------

>It doesn't seem such a stretch, all things considered, for Tiny Robo
>and Lesser Mazinger to have such abilities built in to them.
>
>Who wants to lay money on Robo and Mazinger turning into MUCH larger
>versions of themselves at some future date?

There's no technical reason why, with the appropriate application of various alien technologies, this could not be done.

However, I caution against risking money on any contingency hinging on my thinking anything to do with Jet Jaguar is cool enough to use in the Symphony. I mean, come on, give me a little credit.

I feel vaguely soiled just having had it suggested that I might borrow something from Godzilla vs. Megalon, of all things.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>There's no technical reason why, with the appropriate application of
>various alien technologies, this could not be done.
>
>However, I caution against risking money on any contingency hinging on
>my thinking anything to do with Jet Jaguar is cool enough to
>use in the Symphony. I mean, come on, give me a
>little credit.
>
>I feel vaguely soiled just having had it suggested that I might
>borrow something from Godzilla vs. Megalon, of all things.

(In my best Foghorn Leghorn impression) It was ah joke... Ah say! A _joke_, son! ^_^

No, really. I didn't think of the Jet Jaguar reference until I almost was ready to hit the button to post. I was thinking initially purely of Transformers tech. Like Megatron transforming into that comparatively _tiny_ handgun and back. Same with Soundwave and Blaster.

And yes, I definitely give you more credit than that. ^_^

-Logan

------------------------------------------------
"You are about 10% as cool as you think
you are... and if you live to be a million
years old, you will *never* be as cool as
Chuck Berry."
--Henry Rollins
------------------------------------------------

>No, really. I didn't think of the Jet Jaguar reference until I almost
>was ready to hit the button to post. I was thinking initially purely
>of Transformers tech. Like Megatron transforming into that
>comparatively _tiny_ handgun and back. Same with Soundwave and
>Blaster.

That brings up another thought. With size changing transformations like Megatron and Soundwave, can they actually shrink themselves down in humanoid form? Seeing how they're going to be spending time in human-sized environments a lot from now on, it would be a useful abilitiy.

Matrix Dragon
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." --J.R.R. Tolkien
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for obvious reasons." -Matrix Dragon

LAST EDITED ON Dec-20-01 AT 07:42 PM (EST)

>That brings up another thought. With size changing transformations
>like Megatron and Soundwave, can they actually shrink themselves down
>in humanoid form? Seeing how they're going to be spending time in
>human-sized environments a lot from now on, it would be a useful
>abilitiy.

(Blink)

That's a damn good question. It makes me wonder why they have never done it before.

I can't think of a good tech reason why they shouldn't be able to, beyond the general idea that such systems can only support two, and ONLY two, different modes. Such as with memory metals and the like. But that isn't what their tech is based on.

And having their Cybertronian tech only capable of supporting two modes doesn't make any sense either. If that were the case, triple changers would be impossible. Not to mention what PCHammer can do with his Rotofoil form.

(Bob had a good article referenced in his concordance to Drunkard's Walk about "Programmable Matter" that might help in these theories. Bob? )

Maybe it's a psychological thing? They're used to being the size that they are and wouldn't change because of that?

Arrgh... Brain hurts...

-Logan
-------------------------------------
"I need to selectively edit my mental images.
Please hand me a fork."

William K. "Bushmaster" Bushway
-------------------------------------

>>That brings up another thought. With size changing transformations
>>like Megatron and Soundwave, can they actually shrink themselves down
>>in humanoid form? Seeing how they're going to be spending time in
>>human-sized environments a lot from now on, it would be a useful
>>abilitiy.
>
>(Blink)
>
>That's a damn good question. It makes me wonder why they have never
>done it before.

They probably bought multiform instead of growth/shrinking and shapechanging.

-----------------------------------
Chris can't handle Champions

>>(Blink)
>>
>>That's a damn good question. It makes me wonder why they have never
>>done it before.
>
>They probably bought multiform instead of growth/shrinking and
>shapechanging.

*WA-TAK!!!*

Stop that. :)

-Logan
-------------------------------------
"I need to selectively edit my mental images.
Please hand me a fork."

William K. "Bushmaster" Bushway
-------------------------------------

>They probably bought multiform instead of growth/shrinking and
>shapechanging.

>Chris can't handle Champions

I'm so glad I bought off most of my psych lims.

Of course, I replaced them with new ones....

--
Geoff Depew - Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Malakite of Lightning and Angel of Tech Support Professionals
(They won't give me LARTs, they say that's restricted to Michael.)

>(Bob had a good article referenced in his concordance to Drunkard's
>Walk about "Programmable Matter" that might help in these theories.
>Bob? )

I'm not sure I can really help; I'm not familiar at all with Transformers and other shifterbot cartoons, so I really don't have the background with which to give informed commentary. Anyone wanting to draw their own conclusions from the Wired article I referenced in the Concordance (http://www.eclipse.net/~rms/dw2conc.html , in Chapter 11) is welcome to, of course.

-- Bob
---------------
"I am an ethical being," the daemon explained. "These people expected to be eaten. When one is in a strange place, the most ethical thing is to treat people as they expect to be treated". -- John Benson

>Megatron and other Transformers change not only the shape of their
>bodies through reconfiguration, but change the size of individual
>parts and even the shapes of those individual parts at times. Or even
>call up entirely _new_ parts (Prime's Trailer) It's not just a simple
>mechanical transformation in many cases, like a Valkyrie or Alpha.
>I've read references to subspace - pulling of mass out of subspace and
>dumping of same in order to change mass and such.

Not to mention how Hammer transforms between organic and mechanical forms.

>It doesn't seem such a stretch, all things considered, for Tiny Robo
>and Lesser Mazinger to have such abilities built in to them. Or
>modified to add them later. This is Corwin who built them after all.
>The son of the Norn of Technology. And Cybertron would seem like a
>natural favorite of Skuld to keep an eye on...

Just think that he has the rest of his life to build even better machines. I see him creating some seriously formidable robots for Len and Guy to pilot in the years to come, as befitting two future space heroes. Which makes me look forward to when Gryphon finally gets around to telling stories about these two.

-Ro

>I see him creating some seriously formidable robots for Len
>and Guy to pilot in the years to come, as befitting two future space
>heroes.

Er, I thought that Len wasn't interested in that. Rather, I thought he's more into mastering his sword.

I was actually wondering why Corwin hasn't made weapons for Len and Kate.

--Chris

"What is the difference between a fighter and a warrior?"
"The warrior is (easily) defeated, especially at higher levels."

>I was actually wondering why Corwin hasn't made weapons for Len and
>Kate.

Who says he hasn't?

Redneck

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope

>
>>I was actually wondering why Corwin hasn't made weapons for Len and
>>Kate.
>
>Who says he hasn't?

Well, since you asked, I do; and the reason why is fairly simple. By the time he was skilled enough to make a good showing at a complicated design like a Japanese sword, Kate already had her zatoichi. As for Leonard, he's not at the real-blade level yet; he's still working entirely with bokuto.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>Well, since you asked, I do; and the reason why is fairly simple. By
>the time he was skilled enough to make a good showing at a complicated
>design like a Japanese sword, Kate already had her zatoichi. As for
>Leonard, he's not at the real-blade level yet; he's still working
>entirely with bokuto.
>
That wasn't clear from Reflections in Transition... I actually expected him to be fighting with steel since you mentioned that he was a journyman and not just a novice like T'vek. I would expect that Corwin would be happy to make weapons for his siblings (enchanted or not - just because he can make magic weapons doesn't mean he has to) - he just hasn't been asked to yet.

And since Kate did mention that she might want to get a sword other than her zatoichi, I wouldn't be surprised if Corwin ended up making her one as a gift in the future... :)

Offsides

#include <weapons.h>

>>Well, since you asked, I do; and the reason why is fairly simple. By
>>the time he was skilled enough to make a good showing at a complicated
>>design like a Japanese sword, Kate already had her zatoichi. As for
>>Leonard, he's not at the real-blade level yet; he's still working
>>entirely with bokuto.
>>
>That wasn't clear from Reflections in Transition... I actually
>expected him to be fighting with steel since you mentioned that he was
>a journyman and not just a novice like T'vek.

Well, OK, I correct myself. Leonard is advanced enough that, in the dojo, with his father, he's doing some work with steel (mainly iaijutsu and the like, rather than actual combat training, at this point). He's not to the point where he'd be issued his own blade and expected to carry it with him, like Kaitlyn does.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>Er, I thought that Len wasn't interested in that. Rather, I thought
>he's more into mastering his sword.

I got the idea that Len was interested from Reflections in Transition, during the first scene between Aya and Gryphon. She was running down the names of his sons, and mentioned about Len liking Destroids, not ships.

>I was actually wondering why Corwin hasn't made weapons for Len and
>Kate.

A good question. Maybe Len and Kate don't need enchanted weapons? It seems that part of K-ryuu involves reinforcing one's blades with ki, a sword being the extension of one's will.

-ro

>A good question. Maybe Len and Kate don't need enchanted weapons? It
>seems that part of K-ryuu involves reinforcing one's blades with ki, a
>sword being the extension of one's will.

That's certainly part of the form, but on the same token, Utena has the Power of Dios, and she still has an enchanted blade, or at least a rune sword, the difference is pretty moot I think. I would say that no matter what your level of technique or skill, having a sword (enchanted or not) crafted by the son of the weaponsmith for the Valkyrior would be a bit of an edge in combat. If Kate ever wants a weapon other than her zaitoichi, I bet Corwin will make it, and do the same for the rest of his siblings if they were to ask.

Donnerjack
--
reality@peoplearestrange.net
BOFH to www.astralstudios.com

LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-01 AT 06:44 PM (EST)

>I would say that
>no matter what your level of technique or skill, having a sword
>(enchanted or not) crafted by the son of the weaponsmith for the
>Valkyrior would be a bit of an edge in combat. If Kate ever wants a
>weapon other than her zaitoichi, I bet Corwin will make it, and do the
>same for the rest of his siblings if they were to ask.

Hmm, has anyone see the sword that Utena uses convey her an advantage? So far it's just done a really good job of channeling her power ("Dios Power! Make Up!"), which the dojo practice sword did as well...

I don't think we've seen what a Valkyrior rune sword can do yet...so perhaps we should not speculate?

Also why would Kate or Len need/want a rune sword? Gryphon certainly doesn't need one.

t.
I'm not sure why but today is definitely Sailor Moon day
Editted: open quotes are evvvviiiilllll

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

>Hmm, has anyone see the sword that Utena uses convey her an advantage?
> So far it's just done a really good job of channeling her power
>("Dios Power! Make Up!"), which the dojo practice sword did as well...

Except in the fact that it is an incredibly finely crafted weapon, to the point where she felt as comfortable wielding it immediately as she did after using the Sword of Dios for some time. Other than that, we have yet to see it give her any advantage, other than her comfort with wielding it. Emphasis on yet.

>I don't think we've seen what a Valkyrior rune sword can do yet...so
>perhaps we should not speculate?

No, I doubt we've seen the full extent of it's powers as of yet. And I'm certainly not going to speculate, not with Gryph writing this. He has a way of confounding speculators.

>Also why would Kate or Len need/want a rune sword? Gryphon certainly
>doesn't need one.

I'm not implying that they would want/need one for the power that a rune sword contains (I'm not sure of the source material for this in particular, so I'm fuzzy on what it might be able to do) but more for the quality of the craftmanship. Like I said in my previous post, Corwin is the son of the weaponsmith of the Valkyrior, and even as young as he is, I'd be willing to bet there are few swordsmiths or weaponsmiths in general, in Midgard or Asgard, that are his equal or better. His mother certainly, and a few of the other gods, perhaps some mortals. But Corwin would be happy to spend his time making a sibling a astonishingly fine weapon, so why would they not ask him for one? Gryph's swords have sentimental value, and he's had them for a long, long time, otherwise he might trade up as well.

I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just trying to make a clarification, cause I think that I perhaps didn't convey what I meant as well as I could have in my last post.

Donnerjack
--
reality@peoplearestrange.net
BOFH to www.astralstudios.com

>Except in the fact that it is an incredibly finely crafted weapon, to
>the point where she felt as comfortable wielding it immediately as she
>did after using the Sword of Dios for some time. Other than that, we
>have yet to see it give her any advantage, other than her comfort with
>wielding it. Emphasis on yet.

This is going from my rather sketchy knowledge of RGU, but we know Utena lost the Sword of Dios, and she's gained the Thorn of the Rose, another magical weapon crafted by someone who cares for her. It makes me wonder if the Thorn would be considered, for lack of a better word, a replacement for the Sword of Dios...and what that means to Anthy when her and Utena find each other again, given where the Sword of Dios came from. And since the Thorn of the Rose has Corwin's magical fingerprints all over it, how that might interact in the relationship between the three of them...

Thinking out loud. I'm pretty sure this is all rhetorical and I don't expect any kind of answers from the powers that be. Just interesting to consider.

------------------------
"Mike Wazowski!"
------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

>Just interesting to consider.

I'm considering starting a new thread myself

-----------------------------------
Chris can't handle sleep deprivation

>I don't think we've seen what a Valkyrior rune sword can do yet...so
>perhaps we should not speculate?
>

Actually, we have seen one power already, in Hunted Rose. Remember that the psi cops couldn't draw Thorn from its scabbard... and I have a feeling that were Utena concious they couln't have taken it away from her either. Athough, I thought I rememberd them not being able to take it from her while she was out, but I could be wrong.

I also expect that she could summon it to her the way Corwin does Stick.

Any further powers will have to remain guesswork till G decides to enlighten us. ^_^

___________________

Jer told Vaughn about me. I am once again a victim of Murphy's law...

>>I don't think we've seen what a Valkyrior rune sword can do yet...so
>>perhaps we should not speculate?
>>
>
>Actually, we have seen one power already, in Hunted Rose. Remember
>that the psi cops couldn't draw Thorn from its scabbard... and I have
>a feeling that were Utena concious they couln't have taken it away
>from her either. Athough, I thought I rememberd them not being able
>to take it from her while she was out, but I could be wrong.
>

Indeed, though that is, it would appear, one fo the hallmarks of Norse mystic weapons, they can't be used except by their intended wielder and those s/he specificly designates <ref: Skuld's mini presentation of Kei's & Yuri's weapons just before the Ragnarok; Thor's hammer {Mjolnir IIRC}>

>I also expect that she could summon it to her the way Corwin does
>Stick.
>

She can summon the Rose Knight embelishments, so that seems to follow. I rather suspect Utena can do a whole LOT of things much like Corwin or his mother's side of the family can, once she has enough practice;)

-={(Astynax)}=-
"She's already raised the dead, in a way. Bets on what she CAN'T do?"

>
>>I also expect that she could summon (the Thorn of the Rose) to her the way
>>Corwin does Stick.
>>
>
>She can summon the Rose Knight embelishments, so that seems to follow.
>

Not really. If you take Fanfare for an Exiled Prince in E-flat Major as a reference, the Rose Knight embellishments appear to be a "Power of Dios" ability.

Being able to summon the Thorn would probably be one of two things: a power of the Rose Knight that Utena hasn't discovered yet, or an enchantment on the Thorn that Corwin hasn't mentioned.

Given that Corwin probably made Stick himself, I'd bet on the "come to my hand" trick being based on an enchantment on Stick, rather than an Aesir ability.

>
>I rather suspect Utena can do a whole LOT of things much like Corwin
>or his mother's side of the family can, once she has enough practice;)
>

Or gets desperate enough. From what I've seen, most of what she can do works on a subconscious level, at least at first. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that she hasn't invoked the Power of Dios on a conscious level yet in SOS.

Peter Eng
--
Raymond Babbit visits Jusenkyo, in "Rain Man 1/2."

Not coming, ever, to any form of entertainment. This is a good thing.

>Or gets desperate enough. From what I've seen, most of what she can
>do works on a subconscious level, at least at first. Feel free to
>correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that she hasn't invoked the
>Power of Dios on a conscious level yet in SOS.

She can summon her dress-uniform trimmings pretty much at will now (having first done so in Hogtown Rhapsody), but she hasn't done much else yet.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>She can summon her dress-uniform trimmings pretty much at will now
>(having first done so in Hogtown Rhapsody), but she hasn't done
>much else yet.

Other than raise the (practically) dead, of course...

-- Bob
---------------
"I am an ethical being," the daemon explained. "These people expected to be eaten. When one is in a strange place, the most ethical thing is to treat people as they expect to be treated". -- John Benson

>>She can summon her dress-uniform trimmings pretty much at will now
>>(having first done so in Hogtown Rhapsody), but she hasn't done
>>much else yet.
>
>Other than raise the (practically) dead, of course...

We were talking, I believe, about power effects she has consciously and deliberately achieved. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/