Ever had one of those moments where it's a slow night at your work study gig and you're thinking about the Force, and you suddenly see - through the eyes of a character who has been grappling with its underlying nature for years - that what has been presented in all the lore as a fundamental dichotomy is actually a kind of weird parallelism? That what they all - including the character who's having the insight - have spent millennia calling "darkness" is really a different, less predictable, more dangerous, but in the end undeniably luminous form of light?

There is no "Dark Side" of the Force. There is only the difference between white light and a flame. The latter is a lot more dangerous if you let it get out of hand, but it's also hella useful if you hold it right.

At least, that's one character's take on it...

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

I like that. But I'd tweak it a bit.

It's the difference between a lantern and a torch.

How about the difference between the light from a fire and the heat from it.

Michael C. Fortner
"Maxim 37: There is no such thing as "overkill".
There is only "open fire" and "I need to reload".

An interesting counterpoint to this is the concept of the Potentium from the later New Jedi Order books, which flatly states that the light and dark sides just doesn't exist. A few books after this Jacen Solo was introduced to and mastered this philosophy, it was pretty unceremoniously rejected by the Powers That Be (George) but I always liked it. It actually fits rather well with Utena's "I'm pretty passionate but I'm not a fucking sociopath" philosophy from S4.

With all of that said, that's a cool revelation and I'm looking forward to seeing some character or another (Len?) come to it.

About time! :D

In seriousness, though... I've felt that the best reflection of the Force is that of the traditional Chinese Taoist philosophy--the dualism of the Yin and Yang, as commonly viewed by the Dao (the swirly black/white circle thingy. Koreans have an angular version.) If you consider the rationale behind both sides of the Dao, there's huge similarities on both sides. The Jedi better represent the Yin aspect, with all the stillness and avoidance of emotional extremes. The flip side, the Dark Side, is all about being controlled by emotion and action that embodies the Yang.

Of course, the worst aspects do show up--that's why there's a dot of the other side in each half, to remind us to balance ourselves in harmony with the Tao/Force. Hence, the appearance of the true Sith and the Jedi Knights, as both are supposed to act in accordance to harmony on their respective sides.

I suspect this is why the small Jedi "religion" in England is still fairly active--it's really geeky Buddism. :D

>I suspect this is why the small Jedi "religion" in England is still
>fairly active--it's really geeky Buddism. :D

I always figured that was just because when faced with a "religion" blank on a government form, many English people preferred to go for a smartass answer.

--G.
"... and most of us, if pressed, will just put 'Jedi'." - Bill Bailey, paraphrased from memory
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Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Hasn't anyone else been tempted to put in "pantheistic multiperson solipsism", or is it just me...?

--
Unable to save the day: File is read-only.

>Hasn't anyone else been tempted to put in "pantheistic multiperson
>solipsism", or is it just me...?

I was in the emergency department at a Bangor hospital the other day (sudden epic back/side pain: medical science shrugs, assumes I've had a interesting convergence of bad luck, muscle strain, and an internal suture from the Surgery Adventure), and they asked me for my religion during check-in. I was unable to keep myself from giving the clerk a What Has That Got To Do With Anything? face for a second or two, then told her I'm an atheist. That got me a momentary odd look in return and a box checked on some computerized hospital form, which presumably means if I die in that hospital at any future point they'll just strip me for parts and toss me on the burn pile. Which I'm OK with as long as they're sure I'm really dead.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

>I was unable to keep myself from giving the clerk a
>What Has That Got To Do With Anything? face for a second or two, then
>told her I'm an atheist. That got me a momentary odd look in return
>and a box checked on some computerized hospital form, which presumably
>means if I die in that hospital at any future point they'll just strip
>me for parts and toss me on the burn pile.

Probably it also means you're not going to have a hospital chaplain of any denomination stopping by.

>>I was unable to keep myself from giving the clerk a
>>What Has That Got To Do With Anything? face for a second or two, then
>>told her I'm an atheist. That got me a momentary odd look in return
>>and a box checked on some computerized hospital form, which presumably
>>means if I die in that hospital at any future point they'll just strip
>>me for parts and toss me on the burn pile.
>
>Probably it also means you're not going to have a hospital chaplain of
>any denomination stopping by.

And that they don't have to worry about dietary restrictions (other than medical ones) for any hospital meals you might partake in.

Or things like the Jehovah's Witnesses refusing blood transfusions, which would have made your recent medical adventure much more interesting, and probably shorter.

Polychrome

>Probably it also means you're not going to have a hospital chaplain of
>any denomination stopping by.

That happened (at that same hospital) during the Great Brain Adventure. It was a baffling experience, for two reasons:

1) I'm sure I had told them when I checked in that time, too, that I'm not religious; and
2) He was the hospital's Catholic chaplain and he hailed from someplace in Africa, so I found him both procedurally and linguistically incomprehensible. I think he might've given me absolution? Or possibly validated my parking. I really have no idea what happened there. Nice man, very cheerful, zero idea what he was on about at any point.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Ok, I chuckled.

Brian

> I think he might've given me
>absolution? Or possibly validated my parking. I really have no idea
>what happened there. Nice man, very cheerful, zero idea what
>he was on about at any point.
>

same thing really.... car, soul... whatever gets you through the night

-Z

---
Remember kids: guns make you stupid, duct tape makes you smart.

>>Probably it also means you're not going to have a hospital chaplain of
>>any denomination stopping by.
>
>That happened (at that same hospital) during the Great Brain
>Adventure. It was a baffling experience, for two reasons:
>
>1) I'm sure I had told them when I checked in that time, too, that I'm
>not religious; and

This is a not too uncommon story around the atheist blogosphere. Chaplains seem to tend to treat a 'none' as either 'nonspecific Christian' or 'adrift and available for conversion'.

You also see some of the same thing that causes the doorknockers to think a 'no proselytizing' sign applies to every faith but theirs.

>>Hasn't anyone else been tempted to put in "pantheistic multiperson
>>solipsism", or is it just me...?
>
>I was in the emergency department at a Bangor hospital the other day
>(sudden epic back/side pain: medical science shrugs, assumes I've had
>a interesting convergence of bad luck, muscle strain, and an internal
>suture from the Surgery Adventure), and they asked me for my religion
>during check-in. I was unable to keep myself from giving the clerk a
>What Has That Got To Do With Anything? face for a second or two, then
>told her I'm an atheist. That got me a momentary odd look in return
>and a box checked on some computerized hospital form, which presumably
>means if I die in that hospital at any future point they'll just strip
>me for parts and toss me on the burn pile. Which I'm OK with as long
>as they're sure I'm really dead.

Sort of tangetally related, but a while back when I was looking at different funeral markers for my father's military funeral at the local National Cemetery, they had little icons for every religion under the sun for engraving. The mark for the athiest was a stylized Atom, which I thought looked neat. I was a little disappointed they didn't have a guy shrugging for agnostic.

------
Jon Helscher

Oh God, it was me. I was the grognard all along.

LAST EDITED ON Dec-04-12 AT 09:46 AM (EST)
 
>I was a little disappointed they
>didn't have a guy shrugging for agnostic.

It really ought to be a question mark.

Also, on my first reading I didn't get the impression that this was a recent thing, but now I'm not sure - and regardless, I should've offered condolences. It's a neat story, but I'm sorry you found yourself having to do that.

--G.
If you're a Unitarian Universalist, do you get all of them?
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

As a high-priest of the First Unified Church of Optimus Prime, I've always used the International Sign of the Donut to describe the all-spark during my benedictions.

----
Now Playing:
'till all are one!

< THIS SPACE FOR RENT >

Apparently, I'm not the only one who considers Optimus Prime a divine being. A variant of this has been added to my "things to add to my house" list.

----
Now Playing:
...

< THIS SPACE FOR RENT >

Well, look at the facts:

• Immensely old
• Incredibly wise
• incredibly powerful
• posssesses an artifact which has uncertain but amazing effects when activated (the Matrix of Leadership)

--
Geoff Depew - Darth Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Dark Lord of Sith Tech Support.
"And Remember! Google is your Friend!!"

>>I was a little disappointed they
>>didn't have a guy shrugging for agnostic.
>
>It really ought to be a question mark.

That's for Prydonians.

>Also, on my first reading I didn't get the impression that this was a
>recent thing, but now I'm not sure - and regardless, I should've
>offered condolences. It's a neat story, but I'm sorry you found
>yourself having to do that.

Thanks.

It seems like a lot of time has passed but a little over a year really isn't that much time. Let that be a lesson to you kiddies, make sure your parents have their affairs in order. It can get a little cray cray if they don't.

If you're looking at it as an outsider, the whole funerary business and it's related products are a fascinating study in what people want to be remembered as, or what people choose for them when there's no input.

------
Jon Helscher

Oh God, it was me. I was the grognard all along.

>Sort of tangetally related, but a while back when I was looking at
>different funeral markers for my father's military funeral at the
>local National Cemetery, they had little icons for every religion
>under the sun for engraving. The mark for the athiest was a stylized
>Atom, which I thought looked neat.

Discordians should get an engraving of a hot dog, sans sausage. (I know, I know, the Golden Apple of Kallisti is the "official" symbol, but you know how they are. :D )

>I was in the emergency department at a Bangor hospital the other day
>(sudden epic back/side pain: medical science shrugs, assumes I've had
>a interesting convergence of bad luck, muscle strain, and an internal
>suture from the Surgery Adventure), and they asked me for my religion
>during check-in. I was unable to keep myself from giving the clerk a
>What Has That Got To Do With Anything? face for a second or two, then
>told her I'm an atheist. That got me a momentary odd look in return
>and a box checked on some computerized hospital form, which presumably
>means if I die in that hospital at any future point they'll just strip
>me for parts and toss me on the burn pile. Which I'm OK with as long
>as they're sure I'm really dead.

Ah, you saw the remake of Coma too, eh?

>>if I die in that hospital at any future point they'll just strip
>>me for parts and toss me on the burn pile. Which I'm OK with as long
>>as they're sure I'm really dead.
>
>Ah, you saw the remake of Coma too, eh?

No, I just have a longstanding fear of premature burial/disposal. Like, since about when I was old enough to understand the whole death-and-burial thing.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

>No, I just have a longstanding fear of premature burial/disposal.
>Like, since about when I was old enough to understand the whole
>death-and-burial thing.
>
BTDT. My great-grandmother's funeral when I was 3 gave me nightmares that would even occasionally show up into my 20's...

Offsides

[...] in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #π
#include <stdsig.h>

LAST EDITED ON Dec-07-12 AT 03:03 PM (EST)
 
>>No, I just have a longstanding fear of premature burial/disposal.
>>Like, since about when I was old enough to understand the whole
>>death-and-burial thing.
>>
>BTDT. My great-grandmother's funeral when I was 3 gave me nightmares
>that would even occasionally show up into my 20's...

KHAN I shall leave you as you left me, as you left her. Marooned for all eternity in the center of a dead planet. Buried alive.

KIRK KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!

--G.
that's more or less how I ultimately got over it
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

>>Hasn't anyone else been tempted to put in "pantheistic multiperson
>>solipsism", or is it just me...?
>
>I was in the emergency department at a Bangor hospital the other day
>(sudden epic back/side pain: medical science shrugs, assumes I've had
>a interesting convergence of bad luck, muscle strain, and an internal
>suture from the Surgery Adventure), and they asked me for my religion
>during check-in. I was unable to keep myself from giving the clerk a
>What Has That Got To Do With Anything? face for a second or two, then
>told her I'm an atheist. That got me a momentary odd look in return
>and a box checked on some computerized hospital form, which presumably
>means if I die in that hospital at any future point they'll just strip
>me for parts and toss me on the burn pile. Which I'm OK with as long
>as they're sure I'm really dead.
>

I've been tempted a few times to answer with Pastafarian, just to watch the reactions.
I think it'd be quite amusing.
Still, it's probably dietary related or so the staff know which denominational dispenser of Godly wisdom to send to your bedside When Bad Things Occur.

>I've been tempted a few times to answer with Pastafarian, just to
>watch the reactions.
>I think it'd be quite amusing.
>Still, it's probably dietary related or so the staff know which
>denominational dispenser of Godly wisdom to send to your bedside When
>Bad Things Occur.

You mentioned Pastafarianism along with dietary restrictions, and my head just started putting things together...

"At 6:30 on Saturday night, The First Pastafarian Church of Windale is sponsoring a spaghetti supper/communion service. The public is welcome to attend, at $7.00/person. Garlic bread and salad included"

--rR

I had a similar moment the other night, while playing Star Wars: the Old Republic.

Bioware seems to have disconnected Light Side/Dark Side from Jedi/Sith. You can earn Light Side points as a Sith. You can earn Dark Side points as a Jedi. Being a Roleplaying geek, this immediately reminded me of the old AD&D alignment system.

Jedi/Sith = Law/Chaos
Light/Dark = Good/Evil.

YMMV, but it's an interesting idea if I ever run a RPG in the Star Wars universe again.

>I had a similar moment the other night, while playing Star Wars: the
>Old Republic.
>
>Bioware seems to have disconnected Light Side/Dark Side from
>Jedi/Sith. You can earn Light Side points as a Sith. You can earn
>Dark Side points as a Jedi. Being a Roleplaying geek, this
>immediately reminded me of the old AD&D alignment system.
>
>Jedi/Sith = Law/Chaos
>Light/Dark = Good/Evil.
>
>YMMV, but it's an interesting idea if I ever run a RPG in the Star
>Wars universe again.

Interesting thought, but I'd tweak it a bit:

Jedi/Sith: Good/Evil
Light/Dark: Chaos/Order.

After all, as Alan Dean Foster once put it "Freedom is just Chaos with better lighting."

>After all, as Alan Dean Foster once put it "Freedom is just Chaos with
>better lighting."

"The Sith are just Jedi with better lightNing." :)

:)

>Interesting thought, but I'd tweak it a bit:
>
>Jedi/Sith: Good/Evil
>Light/Dark: Chaos/Order.
>
>After all, as Alan Dean Foster once put it "Freedom is just Chaos with
>better lighting."

Which is interesting because Republic/Empire is clearly Freedom/Tyranny.

Polychrome

Well, I think this thread has convinced me that Jedi powers are just another form of Discordian magick. Not that it was hard to convince me.

Jedi/Sith: Creation/Destruction
Light/Dark: Chaos/Order
Yeah, I think I've seen that chart before. I'd say "destructive" is a better description of the Sith way than the rather arbitrary good/evil distinction of AD&D anyway.

>Bioware seems to have disconnected Light Side/Dark Side from
>Jedi/Sith. You can earn Light Side points as a Sith. You can earn
>Dark Side points as a Jedi.

This reminds me of Dara Ó Briain's riff about how he doesn't believe in God, but he's still Catholic, because not believing in God isn't enough to get you out of the Catholic Church. "You could join the Taliban," he observes, "you'd simply be regarded as a bad Catholic."

Similarly, I have a Sith Warrior who has a Light/Dark over-under a Jedi Master would be pleased with, because he's constantly, compulsively Doing The Right Thing. I can only assume that if his colleagues knew about that, they wouldn't chuck him out of the Order or try to kill him, because he's a player character and such things cannot happen to persistent-world player characters; they'd simply regard him as a bad Sith.

(That feature of the game world does make it difficult to take darkside Major Bad Guy characters seriously. Darth Baras just isn't scary when you know he can't do anything but let your constant insubordination slide. :)

--G.
"AAAAUUUURRRRGGGHHHH! I CANNOT BREAK HIM!!" "But you sure can shout." "BE SILENT OR I WILL CUT OUT YOUR TONGUE!" "Yeah, yeah. Stop whining and gimme my next assignment, Tubs. I'm double-parked."
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

>>Bioware seems to have disconnected Light Side/Dark Side from
>>Jedi/Sith. You can earn Light Side points as a Sith. You can earn
>>Dark Side points as a Jedi.
>
>This reminds me of Dara Ó Briain's riff about how he doesn't believe
>in God, but he's still Catholic, because not believing in God isn't
>enough to get you out of the Catholic Church. "You could join the
>Taliban," he observes, "you'd simply be regarded as a
>bad Catholic."

The Roman Catholic church is built around a bureaucracy, as such leaving it requires that you _correctly fill out paperwork_.