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Forum Name: Symphony of the Sword / The Order of the Rose
Topic ID: 442
#0, And then, one day...
Posted by Gryphon on Aug-01-14 at 08:01 PM
... you wake up after a week of mild illness and realize that the people who told you you were Doing It Wrong in 2003 were probably right, but that to fix it now you would have to bin 2.33 megabytes of text and start 2410 completely over.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#1, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Nova Floresca on Aug-02-14 at 00:47 AM
In response to message #0
That seems like an ugly conclusion to come to. What exactly needs binning, and/or how do you go about working around it?

"This is probably a stupid question, but . . ."


#3, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Gryphon on Aug-02-14 at 02:33 AM
In response to message #1
LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-14 AT 02:35 AM (EDT)
 
FAIR WARNING: I am violating the crap out of the First Commandment for Writers ("Thou shalt make it look easy") here. Don't keep reading if you find that disturbing.


>>... you wake up after a week of mild illness and realize that the
>>people who told you you were Doing It Wrong in 2003 were probably
>>right, but that to fix it now you would have to bin 2.33 megabytes of
>>text and start 2410 completely over.
>
>That seems like an ugly conclusion to come to.

It is, indeed, mighty ugly.

>What exactly needs binning

Well, it depends on how radical the surgery ended up being. As a thought experiment, there are a few different levels I could take the proceedings to, if I were to initiate them at all. The figure I named in the original post is all of Symphony No. 5 to date plus the last story of Symphony No. 4. Closer examination shows that that's not really a very accurate estimate, though - partly because the damage would extend to some pieces outside the Symphonies, but also partly because a fair bit of the affected material would be salvageable in one form or another. So it wouldn't be binning the whole Symphony so much as binning big pieces of it and revising the living shit out of the rest.

On the other hand, if I were to be more aggressive about it, I could go back to the beginning of Symphony No. 4 and start there, with a revamped version of Page of Swords; or even move Page back in time to 2407 and make it the seventh and final movement of Symphony No. 3.

If I wanted to be insanely aggressive about it, Page would be the second movement of Symphony No. 3 and a lot of the key events of the summers of 2406 and 2409 would end up conflated, but that would be getting pretty far afield of the exercise's original purpose.

And then there is what I like to think of as the Hideaki Anno approach, where I take the first 16 paragraphs of S1M1, throw the rest out the window, shotgun a bottle of dextromethorphan-based cough syrup (NOT the multisymptom kind, that's a great way to OD on acetaminophen and damage your liver), and see what happens.

>and/or how do you go about working around it?

Hell if I know right at this moment, but that is realistically what I'm going to have to do. I mean, the options outlined above, even the least radical one, are crazy, but I mention them for the sake of clearer illumination as to what I'm up against here. The last time I found myself having to push this hard to work through thickets of malfunctioning old plotlines, I was working on the episode of Hopelessly Lost that ended up being scrapped in favor of the first issue of The Iron Age. I'd... rather not do that to a product so fantastically much less self-contained than HL. More to the point, I doubt I could. I'm old now and I get tired, and if I attempted any of those things, I'm pretty sure I'd be on my own.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#4, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Nova Floresca on Aug-02-14 at 03:01 AM
In response to message #3
Supreme apologies in advance if I'm overstepping bounds, but what about using the unfinished portion of Symphony 3 to lay in whatever new plotlines you'd need to put the narrative right? And possibly pull the Diqiu stuff out of line and make it its own subsection? It's very good material, but it doesn't really seem to directly be part of Symphony 5. Either way, even if you don't "fix" anything, it's still damn good writing.

"This is probably a stupid question, but . . ."


#5, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Gryphon on Aug-02-14 at 03:15 AM
In response to message #4
>Supreme apologies in advance if I'm overstepping bounds, but what
>about using the unfinished portion of Symphony 3 to lay in whatever
>new plotlines you'd need to put the narrative right?

It's not really a question of needing to add some retroactive new plotlines (that would just make everything even messier) as get rid of some old ones. Most notably, and the one that's been giving me the actual headache: Way the hell back in 2003, there were people who got so annoyed with the way Symphony No. 4's coda (Vortigern's Lake 2) played out that they /ragequit the Symphony readership. Really. That happened. (Go look at the discussion thread for the annotations to Knights III - it all kicked off in there for whatever reason.)

At the time I thought they were full of noise, and I still think the most vocal of them were kind of being bitchy shits about it, but lately I am starting to suspect, pretty much in spite of myself, that they might also have been right. I didn't think so at the time - I haven't spent the last 11 years deliberately chasing a mirage, and at the time I was hugely relieved that (so I thought) the characters had figured out how to get out of the hole the source plot dug for them, but now... I dunno. I haven't come to a conclusion yet, but just the fact that I'm having to seriously think about it troubles me, because, like I said, that's how TIA happened.

>And possibly pull
>the Diqiu stuff out of line and make it its own subsection? It's very
>good material, but it doesn't really seem to directly be part of
>Symphony 5. Either way, even if you don't "fix" anything, it's still
>damn good writing.

The Dìqiú Suite is not in itself a problem, and the reason it doesn't feel much like it's part of Symphony 5 yet is because it hasn't reached the end; but it would be pretty dramatically orphaned by the deletion of Utena and Corwin getting married, obviously, so whatever of it survived probably would end up being its own separate parallel thing. (It'd be what Corwin did with himself after bailing out of the Symphony cast because it was too painful to stay there, most likely. Decamp to a pocket world where he Knows People and try to reinvent himself as someone who isn't in love with somebody else's husband.)

It's like - you ever build a really complicated LEGO kit, and you get to a point where every time you stick on a piece, the pressure you have to apply to do it makes another one you already placed come off? It's like that.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#6, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Nova Floresca on Aug-02-14 at 03:33 AM
In response to message #5
>It's like - you ever build a really complicated LEGO kit, and you get
>to a point where every time you stick on a piece, the pressure you
>have to apply to do it makes another one you already placed come off?
>It's like that.

Gotcha. Hopefully the pieces of this one won't exit the structure at Warp 12, as Legos seem to do when I touch them. I should probably apologize further, as I was digging in to the problem laid out here to avoid looking at the structurally-unstable mess of a story I've been working on.

"This is probably a stupid question, but . . ."


#7, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Gryphon on Aug-02-14 at 03:40 AM
In response to message #6
LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-14 AT 03:42 AM (EDT)
 
>I should probably
>apologize further, as I was digging in to the problem laid out here to
>avoid looking at the structurally-unstable mess of a story I've been
>working on.

Nah, it's fine, I mean, I wouldn't have bitched about it in public if I didn't want to discuss it. My standard operating procedure has usually been to keep this kind of thing behind the door, but, I dunno, I felt confessional tonight. Like I said, it violates one of the old cardinal rules, but then, I've always thought "never let them see you sweat" was a weird saying. Sweating is an involuntary bodily function. You can't not do it.

Anyway, that's what I'm up against today: a mind made ruminative and self-critical by the tail end of a mysterious illness, and a plotting conundrum so fierce and unpalatable that this week's monumentally unsatisfactory episode of The Legend of Korra was a comparatively pleasant diversion. At least that was somebody else's inability to stop doing the same thing over and over again in hopes of a different result, and not my own.

--G.
Although it is kind of also my own, since like a sucker I keep believing they're really going to let her kick the football this time, every time.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#8, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Nova Floresca on Aug-02-14 at 03:51 AM
In response to message #7
Well if I can be of help in any way, please feel free to ask.

"This is probably a stupid question, but . . ."


#9, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Matrix Dragon on Aug-02-14 at 05:56 AM
In response to message #5
>The Dìqiú Suite is not in itself a problem, and
>the reason it doesn't feel much like it's part of Symphony 5 yet is
>because it hasn't reached the end; but it would be pretty dramatically
>orphaned by the deletion of Utena and Corwin getting married,
>obviously, so whatever of it survived probably would end up
>being its own separate parallel thing. (It'd be what Corwin did with
>himself after bailing out of the Symphony cast because it was too
>painful to stay there, most likely. Decamp to a pocket world where he
>Knows People and try to reinvent himself as someone who isn't in love
>with somebody else's husband.)

... Gotta be honest here, not really a fan of this idea overall. But then, I still like the end to Symphony 4.

Matrix Dragon, J. Random Nutter


#11, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by VoidRandom on Aug-02-14 at 06:51 AM
In response to message #9
>... Gotta be honest here, not really a fan of this idea overall. But
>then, I still like the end to Symphony 4.

I have a more detailed post swirling around in my head, but as time is short I'll start by agreeing with this and note that that this idea would be against type for both the characters and (I think) you, Chief.

-VR
Most Contemporary Literary Fiction is Terrible
"They copied all they could follow, but they couldn't copy my mind,
And I left 'em sweating and stealing a year and a half behind."


#12, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Gryphon on Aug-02-14 at 09:14 AM
In response to message #11
>>... Gotta be honest here, not really a fan of this idea overall. But
>>then, I still like the end to Symphony 4.
>
>I have a more detailed post swirling around in my head, but as time is
>short I'll start by agreeing with this and note that that this idea
>would be against type for both the characters and (I think) you,
>Chief.

Much of me still agrees! But not quite all, which is where my angst is coming from.

Well, that and the fact that I can't sleep very well when I'm ill, and it has a cumulative fucking-up-my-head effect. If I ever get a full night's sleep again, I'll probably wake up the next morning and go, "Who the hell posted this?" :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#13, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by JFerio on Aug-02-14 at 11:10 AM
In response to message #12
>>>... Gotta be honest here, not really a fan of this idea overall. But
>>>then, I still like the end to Symphony 4.
>>
>>I have a more detailed post swirling around in my head, but as time is
>>short I'll start by agreeing with this and note that that this idea
>>would be against type for both the characters and (I think) you,
>>Chief.
>
>Much of me still agrees! But not quite all, which is where my angst
>is coming from.
>
>Well, that and the fact that I can't sleep very well when I'm ill, and
>it has a cumulative fucking-up-my-head effect. If I ever get a full
>night's sleep again, I'll probably wake up the next morning and go,
>"Who the hell posted this?" :)
>

Maybe it would be best to write down some of the ideas, but not to do anything further with them until after you've finally managed to get that full night's sleep? If nothing else, it might spawn further material elsewhere. A good artist, whether writer or otherwise, never ever throws away ideas if they can help it. It's just a matter of WHEN and HOW it gets used.


#14, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Gryphon on Aug-02-14 at 04:40 PM
In response to message #13
>Maybe it would be best to write down some of the ideas, but not to do
>anything further with them until after you've finally managed to get
>that full night's sleep?

What I ended up doing (in lieu of going back to sleep) was going back and reacquainting myself with the bits immediately before the point that made half a dozen people /ragequit, to refresh my memory of why the dénouement of Symphony No. 4 played out that way. It wasn't as straightforward as those people thought it was. It's been long enough now that I sometimes drift toward losing sight of that fact myself, at which point their arguments start looking like they had more weight.

In daylight, I find that I'm still a bit intrigued by the notion of how it would have played out if I'd done things differently, but not to the point where I want to revise the main continuity accordingly. Actually, that's not well-phrased. I didn't want to anyway. But there are times when I feel like I probably should, and that's kind of scary given what a giant (and probably unpopular) job it would be.

Also, and related only tangentially, in rereading Vortigern's 2 I ran across a passage that I have to try and keep in mind, in a slightly different context, as I work on S5DS05:

        It was the kind of stuff they used to do before, and it came
as something of a relief that they could still do it, still enjoy it,
just as much now as before the universe changed. It reassured them
that they were still who they were, that they were still important to
each other in the same ways as before.
They'd awakened with an odd, unspoken concern that the new
dimension to their relationship would eclipse the rest of it, and were
greatly relieved to learn that it hadn't. Everything balanced. They
were who they'd always been, just now without the occasional awkward
moments, withdrawn hands, and quiet pains.
They were, in short, -more-, not less, than they'd been
before.

I probably wouldn't have refreshed that neural trace today if I hadn't had my black dog last night, so hey, every cloud and all that.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#15, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by JeanneHedge on Aug-02-14 at 06:44 PM
In response to message #9
LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-14 AT 06:48 PM (EDT)
 
>... Gotta be honest here, not really a fan of this idea overall. But
>then, I still like the end to Symphony 4.

I thought the end of Symphony 4 was the end of the Symphony because everything seemed to be wrapped up with a bow on. I think I even posted a question asking about that at the time.

eta - That doesn't help with the author's perceived problems now though. As much as I've disagreed (public and not) with some storyline/writing choices, I'd really hate to see all this work dumped and not salvagable in some way.


Jeanne



Jeanne Hedge
http://www.jhedge.com
1st Courier of the Heavenly Prophets for Tianxia
"Never give up, never surrender!"



#16, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Gryphon on Aug-02-14 at 06:48 PM
In response to message #15
LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-14 AT 06:48 PM (EDT)
 
>>... Gotta be honest here, not really a fan of this idea overall. But
>>then, I still like the end to Symphony 4.
>
>I thought the end of Symphony 4 was the end of the Symphony because
>everything seemed to be wrapped up with a bow on. I think I even
>posted a question asking about that at the time.

Well... maybe it should've been, really. What we know as Symphony No. 5 would still be happening, and still be getting told, but it'd be labeled differently, and that might be helping with the "why have you wandered off to Cartoon China, what is going on" problem some folks seem to be having. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#17, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by JeanneHedge on Aug-02-14 at 06:55 PM
In response to message #16
>Well... maybe it should've been, really. What we know as Symphony No.
>5 would still be happening, and still be getting told, but it'd be
>labeled differently, and that might be helping with the "why have you
>wandered off to Cartoon China, what is going on" problem some folks
>seem to be having. :)

Given about 10 seconds thought, maybe going alt-universe with S5 might be the trick to salvage S5? The Norse trickster god created an alt-U populated by alt versions of everyone as a New Year's greeting, and we've been following the alts? Meanwhile, in the *non-alt* universe, the revisions take place (I didn't say it was a good idea - results of 10 seconds thought usually aren't)

Jeanne


Jeanne Hedge
http://www.jhedge.com
1st Courier of the Heavenly Prophets for Tianxia
"Never give up, never surrender!"



#18, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Gryphon on Aug-02-14 at 07:04 PM
In response to message #17
LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-14 AT 07:04 PM (EDT)
 
>>Well... maybe it should've been, really. What we know as Symphony No.
>>5 would still be happening, and still be getting told, but it'd be
>>labeled differently, and that might be helping with the "why have you
>>wandered off to Cartoon China, what is going on" problem some folks
>>seem to be having. :)
>
>Given about 10 seconds thought, maybe going alt-universe with S5 might
>be the trick to salvage S5?

Oh, I'm not talking about banishing it from the continuity, just thinking that it's possible that it should've been branded differently. Calling it The Order of the Rose or The White Rose Chronicle or something, so as to more clearly signal that it's a) about the Duelists, Cephiro, et cetera but b) differently structured and themed from the four Symphonies.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#19, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by VoidRandom on Aug-02-14 at 09:36 PM
In response to message #18
>Oh, I'm not talking about banishing it from the continuity, just
>thinking that it's possible that it should've been branded
>differently. Calling it The Order of the Rose or The White
>Rose Chronicle
or something, so as to more clearly signal that
>it's a) about the Duelists, Cephiro, et cetera but b) differently
>structured and themed from the four Symphonies.

I like it. With the resolution of the Corwin/Utena tension, the main thread of SotS is arguably done., and Utena's proposal sets them up for the next stage.

-VR
Managing reader expectations can be hard, particularly when done on the fly like you have to here. "We juggle priceless eggs in variable gravity."
"They copied all they could follow, but they couldn't copy my mind,
And I left 'em sweating and stealing a year and a half behind."


#20, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Gryphon on Aug-02-14 at 09:45 PM
In response to message #19
>>Oh, I'm not talking about banishing it from the continuity, just
>>thinking that it's possible that it should've been branded
>>differently. Calling it The Order of the Rose or The White
>>Rose Chronicle
or something, so as to more clearly signal that
>>it's a) about the Duelists, Cephiro, et cetera but b) differently
>>structured and themed from the four Symphonies.
>
>I like it. With the resolution of the Corwin/Utena tension, the main
>thread of SotS is arguably done., and Utena's proposal sets them up
>for the next stage.

Of course, we already tried that once with the Dìqiú Suite reorg (which would have to be re-readdressed if the new series banner moved away from the musical theme, as would many of the individual installments' titles), so... hmm.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#22, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by VoidRandom on Aug-02-14 at 09:57 PM
In response to message #20
>Of course, we already tried that once with the Dìqiú
>Suite
reorg (which would have to be re-readdressed if the
>new series banner moved away from the musical theme, as would many of
>the individual installments' titles), so... hmm.

I don't see any particular reason that you can't stick with musical metaphors. Perhaps it's some other Symphony? Now that the Trinity is mostly "singing from the same page" maybe what we have is a chorus? harmony? The Dìqiú Variations?

-VR
Probably not the Dìqiú Lays...you probably don't want to write alliterative verse...
"They copied all they could follow, but they couldn't copy my mind,
And I left 'em sweating and stealing a year and a half behind."


#24, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Gryphon on Aug-02-14 at 10:03 PM
In response to message #22
>>Of course, we already tried that once with the Dìqiú
>>Suite
reorg (which would have to be re-readdressed if the
>>new series banner moved away from the musical theme, as would many of
>>the individual installments' titles), so... hmm.
>
>I don't see any particular reason that you can't stick with musical
>metaphors. Perhaps it's some other Symphony?

Long ago in the mists of history, we did briefly toy with the idea of calling what became S5 Symphony of (something else), but a) we couldn't decide what "something else" should be, b) the whole thing seemed a bit twee and c) it didn't really set the new series apart enough to be worth going to the trouble it would take, in terms of retooling bits of the website and so on.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#2, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Proginoskes on Aug-02-14 at 01:31 AM
In response to message #0
Oog. That's never a good feeling.

#10, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by mdg1 on Aug-02-14 at 06:20 AM
In response to message #0
I don't have the whole structure of Sword in my head, so I'm not entirely sure what the problem is, but I can say that I empathize. I've begun and abandoned at least three completely different versions of a story that most recently was entitled Otaku Legacy. *shrug*

However, I've been told I make a decent sounding board, if you ever need one.


#21, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by trboturtle2 on Aug-02-14 at 09:53 PM
In response to message #0
It sounds like you and the other EPU writers need to get together, look at the problems with SoS 4 and 5, then beat the said problems with clubs.....

Seriously, does SoS 4 need some extra pieces to round it off? Or is the side trip to the Avatar world a problem? Maybe the set of stories with Avatar should be spun off into a Aria, concerto, or another musical piece? Then repurpose SoS5, picking up those threads from SoS 4?

Craig


#23, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Gryphon on Aug-02-14 at 10:00 PM
In response to message #21
>Seriously, does SoS 4 need some extra pieces to round it off?

No, it's fine. The problem I was originally musing about arises in the very last story of the Symphony, and anyway, at this point I've thought better of messing with it.

What we've turned to talking about now is a separate, semi-related problem, that being that the perceived expectations of what No. 5 is supposed to be doing aren't necessarily in line with what it is doing.

>Or is
>the side trip to the Avatar world a problem? Maybe the set of stories
>with Avatar should be spun off into a Aria, concerto, or another
>musical piece?

We already kind of did that with the Dìqiú Suite subset marking in the first place. If we were to go all the way and make the stories that are now Symphony No. 5 a whole separate FI storyline - more of a sequel to the four Symphonies than a fifth one in itself - that would probably lead to a further reorganization of the Dìqiú part, but I'm not sure what form it would take. This is all very much a thought experiment and nothing is decided at this point.

One important thing is that this wouldn't actually remove any of those stories. That's not what we're talking about any more; now it's more about the power of titles to set expectations.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#25, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Droken on Aug-03-14 at 02:30 AM
In response to message #23
Coming at this at the far end of this conversation, I'm tempted to suggest that perhaps it would be best to give it a little bit more time to play out. When you get the finale to the Dìqiú Suite up and we all (writers and readers) get to see it as a complete whole, we're liable to lose that "we don't see how it fits" conundrum that several readers have expressed. If as you said in an earlier post, the ending to the Suite brings it all back together, it may not look quite so lost on the wrong back road.

#49, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by BeardedFerret on Aug-06-14 at 07:52 AM
In response to message #23
I'm jumping in late on this but I feel like this whole realisation might be exactly what the whole movement needs. S5 for me started out as a great, fun read - Saionji and Anakin's Excellent Adventure, the wedding as a setpiece, hopefully leading to a final confrontation with Akio and leading into the redone Day of Infamy.

Instead what seems to have happened is it's gotten sidetracked twice - once with the DSM Panic stuff overshadowing the Tau Ceti stuff, and then again with the Avatar stuff pretty much barging in and taking over the place. From a reader's perspective, especially coming off a recent re-read of some of the S1 stuff, it feels very different.

I think you essentially have two stories going on right now - the Korra stuff, which seems like it's what you want to be telling, and then S5 as it originally seemed to be progressing.

As I said, late to the party and all that. But there's $0.02.


#50, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Matrix Dragon on Aug-06-14 at 09:07 AM
In response to message #49
>As I said, late to the party and all that. But there's $0.02.

Part of that is the time gap that happened in the real world between chapters. Between the first wedding attempt and the Tau Ceti battle, we had Manhunt, Starcrossed... Characters like Korra and Tali'Shukra, who have both been given very important parts in Gryphs modern life, not to mention Corwins, didn't even exist at the time of Wedding Attemt The First. The same applies to a large portion of the current set of Duellists at DSM.

I certainly think that's helped get things feeling a bit random, and possibly in need of a bit of creative juggling.

Matrix Dragon, J. Random Nutter


#26, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Meagen on Aug-03-14 at 04:30 AM
In response to message #0
Thinking out loud about Symphony 5:

For all the pomp and circumstance and Norse deities, the main emotional conflict of Clairon Call was essentially, "the abusive ex has shown up at the dream wedding, is he going to spoil the occasion?". Something that wouldn't be out of place in a soap opera. This is then brilliantly resolved with the story essentially going "screw that, we're a space opera, let's go have space battles instead, in space!"

Then we have a chapter of Space Battles In Space, and then the wedding happens successfully without any further soap opera drama.

And then, well... we move to Cartoon China, and we have the honeymoon, and the baby birth, and then house planning and construction, and meeting the neighbours... Sure, it's all wrapped up in magical and exotic and travelogue, and there's the plot thread of the fire-throwing mafia simmering away in the background, but it's been a while since we've had any Space Battles In Space and I kind of miss those.


#27, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Gryphon on Aug-03-14 at 08:16 AM
In response to message #26
>Sure, it's all wrapped up in magical and
>exotic and travelogue, and there's the plot thread of the
>fire-throwing mafia simmering away in the background, but it's been a
>while since we've had any Space Battles In Space and I kind of miss
>those.

Well... sometimes they aren't what's happening.

(... the entire first two Symphonies, for example.)

What I was musing about earlier re expectations: Sometimes I regret going that way with No. 3.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#28, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Nova Floresca on Aug-03-14 at 08:33 AM
In response to message #27
I don't think it's regrettable, or a bad place to go; you have Utena cast as a knight in the classical sense, and a spaceship is very much both castle and charger both. Perhaps you could have gone for a souped-up freighter instead of a small capital ship as her weapon of choice, but I have the feeling the galaxy would still have conspired to put her in the hot seat.

"This is probably a stupid question, but . . ."


#30, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Gryphon on Aug-03-14 at 12:56 PM
In response to message #28
>I don't think it's regrettable, or a bad place to go; you have Utena
>cast as a knight in the classical sense, and a spaceship is very much
>both castle and charger both.

True, but I might at least have let her get out of high school first. :)

(Then again, she's always been something of an early adopter. Her canonical experiences happened in the eighth grade.* I'm probably lucky she even confined herself to adventuring in the summer and bothered graduating from high school, much less attempting to go to college, although the latter doesn't really seem to have worked.)

--G.
* Including the, er, adventure with Akio, which is frankly more than a little disturbing if you look straight at it. Which the episode in question was structured to make certain you would have to. Eeeee.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#32, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Nova Floresca on Aug-03-14 at 01:44 PM
In response to message #30
Side question- does Japan have some sort of cultural expectation in regards to the 8th grade? In addition to Utena, the Eva pilots were in that same age bracket as well as the Madoka cast, technically*.

*depends on if you count time stuck in a timeloop to count towards your age.

"This is probably a stupid question, but . . ."


#33, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Gryphon on Aug-03-14 at 01:52 PM
In response to message #32
>Side question- does Japan have some sort of cultural expectation in
>regards to the 8th grade? In addition to Utena, the Eva pilots were in
>that same age bracket as well as the Madoka cast, technically*.

Seems likely. The Sailor Moon main cast are all around that age, too, and Magic Knight Rayearth. Kaname in Full Metal Panic! is only a little older. School doesn't work quite the same way in Japan, but that age range is a popular target demo, and in certain genres the creators like to set their main casts to the same age as the viewers they are most hoping to attract.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#34, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Zemyla on Aug-03-14 at 06:00 PM
In response to message #33
>>Side question- does Japan have some sort of cultural expectation in
>>regards to the 8th grade? In addition to Utena, the Eva pilots were in
>>that same age bracket as well as the Madoka cast, technically*.
>
>Seems likely. The Sailor Moon main cast are all around that
>age, too, and Magic Knight Rayearth. Kaname in Full Metal
>Panic!
is only a little older. School doesn't work quite the same
>way in Japan, but that age range is a popular target demo, and in
>certain genres the creators like to set their main casts to the same
>age as the viewers they are most hoping to attract.

From what I hear, high school in Japan is pretty much the last hurrah you have in terms of freedom in that society. After that, you're an adult, you go to whatever training school or job you're expected to and then just work until you retire or die.

Of course, I got this information third-hand, so I'm probably drastically oversimplifying.


#40, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Peter Eng on Aug-04-14 at 05:45 PM
In response to message #34
>
>From what I hear, high school in Japan is pretty much the last hurrah
>you have in terms of freedom in that society. After that, you're an
>adult, you go to whatever training school or job you're expected to
>and then just work until you retire or die.
>
>Of course, I got this information third-hand, so I'm probably
>drastically oversimplifying.
>

I think it depends on your path. For some people in Japan, high school is four years of study hell to get into The Right College, college is four years of partying to burn off the stress of high school, then the process is Work Until You Retire Or Die.

For those folks, eighth grade is probably the last moment when things make sense.

Peter Eng
--
Insert humorous comment here.


#38, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Meagen on Aug-04-14 at 03:18 PM
In response to message #27
>>Sure, it's all wrapped up in magical and
>>exotic and travelogue, and there's the plot thread of the
>>fire-throwing mafia simmering away in the background, but it's been a
>>while since we've had any Space Battles In Space and I kind of miss
>>those.
>
>Well... sometimes they aren't what's happening.
>
>(... the entire first two Symphonies, for example.)
>

If you don't count Hunted Rose, which I would. Psi Cops swarming the school campus and Corwin blowing up a satellite is definitely Space Battles In Space. Also, there is an entire story (Fanfare for an Exiled Prince) that is all about Gryphon recruiting Utena for Space Adventures In Space.

On a quick overview I will grant you that Symphony 2 has no Space Battles In Space at all. (It has Magical Adventures In Magical Lands instead, and they are actual Adventures and not Magical Building A House And Getting To Know The Neighbors.)


#39, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Gryphon on Aug-04-14 at 03:36 PM
In response to message #38
>and they are actual Adventures and not Magical Building A
>House And Getting To Know The Neighbors.

Oh snap, as I believe the young people say.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#29, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Terminus Est on Aug-03-14 at 10:28 AM
In response to message #0
Coming to this as someone who has enjoyed the whole thing, regardless of expectations... making the fifth Symphony either its own thing or the start of something new sounds like a good plan.

However, I'm with whoever it was that said you should probably wait until the Diqiu suite culminates. Until you (and by extension, we) know where it's really going, making a decision that will drastically affect the entire website's structure seems... somewhat foolhardy. On the same note, though... might not be a bad idea to start looking into ways to make the restructuring painless as possible. Maybe get someone started on the new graphics and a bit of the coding.


#31, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Gryphon on Aug-03-14 at 01:08 PM
In response to message #29
>However, I'm with whoever it was that said you should probably wait
>until the Diqiu suite culminates. Until you (and by extension, we)
>know where it's really going

On a point of order: I do know that, at least in a general sense. I'm not completely making this stuff up as I go along. :)

>a decision that will drastically
>affect the entire website's structure

Well, let's not oversell it. In technical terms, adding a new page for whatever the new series would be called wouldn't be any harder than adding any of the other ones that have gone in since the website was designed. Easier, in fact, because I've done it quite recently and haven't had time to forget the tricks to it again, so I won't have to go and rediscover how it all works for the nth time like I did when I added the Legacy of Korra page. :)

There would be a good bit of grunt work involved in converting the stories themselves, since all their opening and closing titles would have to be adjusted and whatnot, and of course that would have the knock-on effect of requiring all their cites in the Chron Listing to be updated. Similarly, the opening and closing bits of all the audio version would have to be re-recorded, and the affected files re-uploaded (which reminds me that I still haven't fixed the directory structure for the rest of the recorded Symphony pieces - drgh, must do that soon). None of that is really challenging, just fiddly and time-consuming.

>On the same note, though... might not be a bad idea to start looking into
>ways to make the restructuring painless as possible. Maybe get
>someone started on the new graphics and a bit of the coding.

Well, like I say, the coding isn't really a big deal. The biggest design challenges are the graphics and, before they can be made, the sorting-out of nomenclature. I did a bit of brainstorming on that front last night. Nothing's decided yet, but I'm looking into it with some interest. In daylight, it still seems like a halfway decent idea, which is not something one can always say about one's late-night ideas. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#35, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Offsides on Aug-03-14 at 08:09 PM
In response to message #0
OK, I'm confused as to exactly what you think you did that you shouldn't have. And perhaps more importantly, why you're feeling that way. Is there some sort of corner you feel you've painted yourself into? I can't say I've been feeling that way, but I'm just a reader...

Offsides

[...] in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #π
#include <stdsig.h>


#36, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Gryphon on Aug-03-14 at 08:11 PM
In response to message #35
>OK, I'm confused as to exactly what you think you did that you
>shouldn't have. And perhaps more importantly, why you're feeling that
>way. Is there some sort of corner you feel you've painted yourself
>into? I can't say I've been feeling that way, but I'm just a reader...

One hates to seem brusque and/or lazy and say, "See the rest of the thread," but, see the rest of the thread. :) It all got kicked around pretty thoroughly yesterday.

Short version is that the immediate crisis is dealt with, but there are some longer-term structural issues that still need looking at.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#41, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by GethN7 on Aug-04-14 at 07:27 PM
In response to message #36
Having read most of the 5th Symphony, it doesn't really mesh that well with the end of the fourth, which was pretty conclusive on it's own.

Also, while the Legend of Korra diversion might have been nice to some, it took a segment of the overall saga that was already meandering and took that down another rabbit trail.

I suppose the 5th could be made to fit in better with the fourth with a rewrite, and the LoK segue could still happen, but only after the rest of S5 is rebooted to line up with the preceding canon better.


#37, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by drakensis on Aug-04-14 at 02:56 AM
In response to message #35
>OK, I'm confused as to exactly what you think you did that you
>shouldn't have. And perhaps more importantly, why you're feeling that
>way. Is there some sort of corner you feel you've painted yourself
>into? I can't say I've been feeling that way, but I'm just a reader...

I don't think it's been said explicitly, but my understanding it's about the stories of 4th and 5th Symphony being under the general banner of Symphony of the Sword. Given the timeskip that takes Kate & Utena from being still at High School to a year or so into college, there's an arguement that this should be under a separate overall title and organised somewhat differently

That's what I got from reading the thread, anyway. I could have the wrong end of the stick.


#42, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by laudre on Aug-05-14 at 05:10 PM
In response to message #0
>... you wake up after a week of mild illness and realize that the
>people who told you you were Doing It Wrong in 2003 were probably
>right, but that to fix it now you would have to bin 2.33 megabytes of
>text and start 2410 completely over.

... huh.

A quick poke at the archives doesn't turn up the thread with my old comments, but I don't think much of value was lost there. Certainly, I'm not going to lose sleep about an embarrassing flame-out from my bad old CANNOT LET SOMEONE BE WRONG ON THE INTERNET days being lost to the ages, even if I might have had a point under all the misaimed vitriol.

That's not to say I don't have issues with how stuff went down around there -- I didn't like the Corwin/Utena/Anthy triad then, and I don't now. Back then, I couldn't articulate why it bothered me very well, which is why what came out was (I'm guessing, based on past experience) a bunch of elliptical rhetoric and exceedingly caustic word salad.

I suppose I could explain, in non-hostile terms, why I think it was a bad idea, drawing on what I've learned about criticism and critical theory, literary structure, gender theory, and queer theory (the latter two have become quite important to me, what with me coming to grips with being trans and all), but ... there seems little point to doing so at this late date*. I will say that working out why it didn't work for me in a non-public space gave me a lot of insight into the craft of writing and, in particular, character arcs and narrative logic.

I have no suggestions about how to go about patching it up -- I'm sure anything I could come up with Gryph could as well (if he hasn't already) -- and I'm not sure I'll be partaking of that particular corner of the EPU output in any event.


"Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately, it also brought mortis."
- Kenneth Boulding

* I can't help thinking of the crypto-lesbian fiasco, which was bizarre and off-base on a number of levels (the original criticism, I mean). Gender theory and queer theory aren't my field -- as I've said many times, I'm an economist by training and profession (it's even my job title) -- but in coming to understand gender identity issues and making friends with other trans women, I picked up a fair amount anyway, just so I could begin to frame my experience. Considering that some of my criticisms would include words like "heteronormative," I can't imagine that they'd be terribly well-received no matter how courteously I phrased them.


#43, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Gryphon on Aug-05-14 at 06:11 PM
In response to message #42
>A quick poke at the archives doesn't turn up the thread with my old
>comments, but I don't think much of value was lost there.

The one I was specifically thinking of turned up in the comments on the annotations to Knights III, not discussion having to do with Vortigern's 2 itself, but yes, it was mainly you (and LostFactor, IIRC) I was thinking of when I mentioned that some people actually /ragequit the Symphony over it. :)

>That's not to say I don't have issues with how stuff went down around
>there -- I didn't like the Corwin/Utena/Anthy triad then, and I don't
>now.

Well, if it ... helps?... it's very likely the reasons I was thinking better of the development during my bout of flu last week were not the same as yours for objecting to it in the first place anyway, so we probably wouldn't have a consensus anyway.

>Back then, I couldn't articulate why it bothered me very well,
>which is why what came out was (I'm guessing, based on past
>experience) a bunch of elliptical rhetoric and exceedingly caustic
>word salad.

Actually, if memory serves, some of it was... not very elliptical at all. You're right about the second part, though.

>I suppose I could explain, in non-hostile terms, why I think it was a
>bad idea, drawing on what I've learned about criticism and critical
>theory, literary structure, gender theory, and queer theory

It's just as well you've opted not to, mainly because I didn't design it - or indeed anything - with reference to any of those five things. I don't approach the writing of fiction as an exercise in social science, and people who approach the reading of my work expecting that I did are basically always going to be disappointed...

>I'm not sure I'll be partaking of that particular
>corner of the EPU output in any event.

... thus. (sigh)

>Considering that
>some of my criticisms would include words like "heteronormative," I
>can't imagine that they'd be terribly well-received no matter how
>courteously I phrased them.

Mm. You would, at the very least, be suspected of overthinking the matter. (And possibly also overphrasing it. Surely there's a word of fewer than six syllables that would do there.)

Still, it sounds like you've had your own adventures lately, which might have tended to be of the kind that would lead a person into the habit of doing so. And if that's helped you get a handle on what must've been a pretty dismaying experience, well, it's hardly down to me to say you're doing it wrong.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#44, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by laudre on Aug-05-14 at 09:58 PM
In response to message #43
>Well, if it ... helps?... it's very likely the reasons I was thinking
>better of the development during my bout of flu last week were not the
>same as yours for objecting to it in the first place anyway, so we
>probably wouldn't have a consensus anyway.

Well... staying as much as I can to the narrative logic/character development part of it (as opposed to the parts that have to do with social theory), here are a couple of reasons it bothers me:

- Despite the relatively small age difference between Corwin and Utena when they first meet (especially in the context of a setting where people who measure their lifespans in centuries, if not millenia, are not uncommon -- even non-Detian, essentially baseline humans live substantially longer lives in the UF's equivalent of the developed world, IIRC), they're standing on opposite sides of a very substantial experience gap. Yes, Corwin's an exceptional person on a number of levels, even by the rather atypical standards of his parents' (all three of them, if you will) cohort, but ... she's been through a crucible that even his Trial doesn't really hold a candle to before they've even met. Thus, while his crush on her is something I can totally buy, her developing feelings for him never felt like a natural, organic part of her character growth, but something that happened for meta reasons. Even given the time it takes for these things to unfold, and the experiences they go through, it just doesn't feel like it fits the dynamic they establish early on, in my opinion.

- Related to the above: around the time that he and Utena first meet, as I recall, he gets in trouble at school for fighting. And that particular incident was actually one of my favorites Corwin stories, because it showed that being a supernaturally intelligent and competent demigod, trained to use both mind and body with divine competence, does not exempt one from the stupidities of adolescence.

- Corwin goes through a lot of maturation between when he meets Utena and when they become an item, but ... in getting into a relationship with his boyhood crush, it feels like all of that growth was short-circuited. He grows up, goes on with his life, maintaining a deep friendship and unique bond with Utena, sure, but in that bond becoming romantic, it just feels like it veers back into adolescent wish fulfillment.

- Corwin/Anthy feels downright contrived to me. I'm sorry -- I don't know any other way to put it. When she refuses ovifusion (i.e. a child of her and Utena, biologically) in favor of, well, natural insemination, it was downright unsettling on several levels.

>It's just as well you've opted not to, mainly because I didn't design
>it - or indeed anything - with reference to any of those five things.
>I don't approach the writing of fiction as an exercise in social
>science, and people who approach the reading of my work expecting that
>I did are basically always going to be disappointed...

Sure, I realize and respect that, but I can't look at a piece of creative output and not see the ways it's problematic anymore. I've enjoyed some deeply problematic stuff since becoming aware of these things, and enjoying any sort of pop culture does require being able to enjoy things despite what are sometimes glaring flaws in that light. (If I refused to engage with anything problematic, my world would be a very, very tiny place indeed.)

Understand I'm not condemning you or your work because there are things in it which reflect on the many unexamined assumptions and ideas you may hold as a cisgender, heterosexual, white male in your late 30s/early 40s (I know you're a few years older than me, but I don't recall exactly how much). Everyone has these sorts of blinders; being trans and female- and lesbian-identified has certainly made me aware of a lot of things I just didn't see before (and that's only going to get more true as I move ahead with my transition -- I'm still presenting as male at work for the moment, as I've not yet started HRT), but that doesn't change me being white and a natural-born US citizen and having all those blind spots (my better half is Singaporean Chinese, and thus picks up on many, many things that still sometimes go right by me).

But that's getting a bit farther afield into that social theory stuff I'd rather keep largely out of the picture.

>>I'm not sure I'll be partaking of that particular
>>corner of the EPU output in any event.
>
>... thus. (sigh)

Oh, it's not because of the social issues -- it's more that I was so disappointed with where Symphony went that I can't really even reread the bits I used to love. There's lots and lots of EPU output I still read (I'm digging the Korra stuff so far, though I've not yet read the latest bits.)

>Mm. You would, at the very least, be suspected of overthinking the
>matter.

It'd be overthinking if I sat there with the Symphony oeuvre in one window, a pile of textbooks open on my desk to various passages, and my own work (edited in LaTeX, so I can format it properly) in another window (possibly a separate monitor). The stuff I'm alluding to? I don't really have to think about it as such; I just see it, I guess.

>(And possibly also overphrasing it. Surely there's a word of
>fewer than six syllables that would do there.)

Honestly? There's not another word that'd take the place of "heteronormative" in the way I'd be using it. It's much like having had to create the term cisgender, meaning someone who identifies with the gender they were assigned at birth, as opposed to transgender, which is identifying with a different gender than that assigned at birth.

>what
>must've been a pretty dismaying experience

Dismaying in the sense of the hills it meant I'd have to climb, yeah. That's a big part of why I spent so many decades in denial even once I had a name I could put to what was going on inside me. In many other ways? Liberating.


"Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately, it also brought mortis."
- Kenneth Boulding


#45, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Gryphon on Aug-05-14 at 10:23 PM
In response to message #44
LAST EDITED ON Aug-05-14 AT 11:58 PM (EDT)
 
>Thus, while his crush on her is something I can
>totally buy, her developing feelings for him never felt like a
>natural, organic part of her character growth, but something that
>happened for meta reasons.

Well, I can't help you there, I guess, because you're wrong about that, full stop.

Oddly enough, I just recently wrote a scene (not that you'll be seeing it, but) in which she muses on that very matter to someone else - the fact that the year-and-a-half between them was a really significant year-and-a-half when they first met, and how it required some... adjustment... on her part when she began to realize that he was catching her up and her view of him was changing. Because, you see...

>Even given the time it takes for these
>things to unfold, and the experiences they go through, it just doesn't
>feel like it fits the dynamic they establish early on, in my opinion.

... "the dynamic they establish early on" wasn't permanent - these things aren't, you know - and it's not as if the characters themselves didn't take a while to recognize that and bring it on board, either.

So, like I say, your take on what is and isn't "natural, organic" is just... not right. It happens, and the thing I've had to adjust to over the years is that when it does, it's not my problem.

>- Related to the above: around the time that he and Utena first meet,
>as I recall, he gets in trouble at school for fighting.

This is... not true either. You may be thinking of the fight scene in Sophomore Slump, which happens two years later and for which, if I may say, he has a bloody good reason.

>- Corwin goes through a lot of maturation between when he meets Utena
>and when they become an item, but ... in getting into a relationship
>with his boyhood crush, it feels like all of that growth was
>short-circuited. He grows up, goes on with his life, maintaining a
>deep friendship and unique bond with Utena, sure, but in that bond
>becoming romantic, it just feels like it veers back into adolescent
>wish fulfillment.

Or, conversely, arrives at last where it was supposed to all along, after a long and complicated diversion to some outlying stations. You say potato...

>- Corwin/Anthy feels downright contrived to me.

I congratulate you on your perspicacity, madam! It was contrived, completely and absolutely.

... It's just that the one contriving it was Anthy.

She's a witch, you know. They're all a little bit evil. They can't help it; it's part of the RFC.

>Understand I'm not condemning you or your work because there are
>things in it which reflect on the many unexamined assumptions and
>ideas you may hold as a cisgender, heterosexual, white male in your
>late 30s/early 40s (I know you're a few years older than me, but I
>don't recall exactly how much).

Oh, here we go. I was wondering how long it would take someone to play the "Of course you don't know you're Completely Wrong because of the innate bias of your Privileged Sociosexual Position. Patpat, there there, it's not your fault." Champion.

>>>I'm not sure I'll be partaking of that particular
>>>corner of the EPU output in any event.
>>
>>... thus. (sigh)
>
>Oh, it's not because of the social issues -- it's more that I was so
>disappointed with where Symphony went that I can't really even reread
>the bits I used to love.

I gotta say that's pretty tragic-hipster of you. It's like the guy I knew at WPI who used to not only drop bands he liked if they Sold Out and Went Mainstream, but stop listening to their poorly produced indie EPs from before then, too.

>There's lots and lots of EPU output I still
>read (I'm digging the Korra stuff so far

... which is an interesting trick, since most of her UF screen time so far has been part and parcel of the Corwin-Utena arc of the Symphony. I'm so confused.

>Honestly? There's not another word that'd take the place of
>"heteronormative" in the way I'd be using it.

Maybe not in one word, but there must be a set of simpler words that convey the same idea, or the word wouldn't be definable in the first place. That goes for any sesquipedalianism, whether it's gender-politics jargon or a description of an electronic component.

Regardless, you're right in assuming that I have zero interest in debating whether Utena's relationship of Corwin is intended as some kind of authorial refutation of her bisexuality (NOTE: it isn't), which is where context implies you were probably going with that.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#48, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Proginoskes on Aug-06-14 at 00:53 AM
In response to message #45
LAST EDITED ON Aug-06-14 AT 01:01 AM (EDT)
 
>It's just that the one contriving it was Anthy.
>
>She's a witch, you know. They're all a little bit evil. They can't
>help it; it's part of the RFC.

And we love her for it.

>>Understand I'm not condemning you or your work because there are
>>things in it which reflect on the many unexamined assumptions and
>>ideas you may hold as a cisgender, heterosexual, white male in your
>>late 30s/early 40s (I know you're a few years older than me, but I
>>don't recall exactly how much).
>
>Oh, here we go. I was wondering how long it would take someone
>to play the "Of course you don't know you're Completely Wrong
>because of the innate bias of your Privileged Sociosexual Position.
>Patpat, there there, it's not your fault" card.

I'm fairly sure this is a relatively innocent case of "Laudre is over-thinking and/or over-stating things", not the poorly-disguised insult such statements often are. (Important Note for Laudre: such statements are usually poorly-disguised insults. Avoid listing the ways in which someone is privileged.)

>>There's lots and lots of EPU output I still
>>read (I'm digging the Korra stuff so far
>
>... which is an interesting trick, since most of her UF screen time so
>far has been part and parcel of the Corwin-Utena arc of the Symphony.
>I'm so confused.

So am I (confused, that is).

>>Honestly? There's not another word that'd take the place of
>>"heteronormative" in the way I'd be using it.
>
>Maybe not in one word, but there must be a set of simpler words that
>convey the same idea, or the word wouldn't be definable in the first
>place. That goes for any sesquipedalianism, whether it's
>gender-politics jargon or a description of an electronic component.

My only beef with "heteronormative" as a word (and several other gender-politics terms) is that it violates the expectation that prefixes and root words have consistent meaning: in the rest of the English language, "hetero-" means "differing" and "normative" means "of, pertaining to, or attempting to establish a norm or standard", so by rights "heteronormative" aught to mean "of, pertaining to, or attempting to establish a differing norm or standard". But of course it doesn't.

>Regardless, you're right in assuming that I have zero interest in
>debating whether Utena's relationship of Corwin is intended as some
>kind of authorial refutation of her bisexuality (NOTE: it isn't),
>which is where context implies you were probably going with that.

I don't think that's where Laudre was going, but then I may be blinded by the fact that it's pretty much impossible: Utena has both a husband and a wife. She's virtually the definition of "bisexual".


#56, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Bad Moon on Aug-09-14 at 03:50 PM
In response to message #45
>>- Corwin/Anthy feels downright contrived to me.
>
>I congratulate you on your perspicacity, madam! It was
>contrived, completely and absolutely.
>
>... It's just that the one contriving it was Anthy.
>
>She's a witch, you know. They're all a little bit evil. They can't
>help it; it's part of the RFC.

Oh man, I thought I was the only one who thought that way. There was always a distinct Fuck You Got Mine feel about Anthy surrounding that series of events and Kozue getting hip checked out of the way.

------
Oh God, it was me. I was the grognard all along.


#57, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Peter Eng on Aug-10-14 at 00:40 AM
In response to message #56
>>>- Corwin/Anthy feels downright contrived to me.
>>
>>I congratulate you on your perspicacity, madam! It was
>>contrived, completely and absolutely.
>>
>>... It's just that the one contriving it was Anthy.
>>
>>She's a witch, you know. They're all a little bit evil. They can't
>>help it; it's part of the RFC.
>
>Oh man, I thought I was the only one who thought that way. There was
>always a distinct Fuck You Got Mine feel about Anthy surrounding that
>series of events and Kozue getting hip checked out of the way.
>

Maybe the story hip-checked her, but Kozue got out of the way of her own accord. I suspect that when Anthy found out, her first reaction was, "That wasn't what I expected to happen. Damn."

Peter Eng
--
Insert humorous comment here.


#58, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Gryphon on Aug-10-14 at 00:54 AM
In response to message #57
>>Oh man, I thought I was the only one who thought that way. There was
>>always a distinct Fuck You Got Mine feel about Anthy surrounding that
>>series of events and Kozue getting hip checked out of the way.
>>
>Maybe the story hip-checked her, but Kozue got out of the way of her
>own accord. I suspect that when Anthy found out, her first reaction
>was, "That wasn't what I expected to happen. Damn."

Well, keep in mind, it wasn't Anthy she was getting out of the way of; in fact, though they'd been an Actual Couple for some time by that point, Kozue and Corwin didn't become lovers until after Annabelle's conception. (In fact, you may recall that Anthy was both surprised and dismayed to discover belatedly that this was the case. She had assumed, perhaps uncharitably but not unreasonably, that Kozue would've wasted no time getting her leg over that once the relationship ceased to be strictly for PR purposes.)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#46, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Matrix Dragon on Aug-05-14 at 11:17 PM
In response to message #44
>Understand I'm not condemning you or your work because there are
>things in it which reflect on the many unexamined assumptions and
>ideas you may hold as a cisgender, heterosexual, white male in your
>late 30s/early 40s (I know you're a few years older than me, but I
>don't recall exactly how much).

... Right. That's it. *Gets a dictionary and finally looks up cisgendered.* Huh. From the context it's normally used it, I always figured people thought I drowned puppies and pulled the wings off pixies.

Matrix Dragon, J. Random Nutter


#47, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Gryphon on Aug-06-14 at 00:04 AM
In response to message #46
>From the context it's normally used it, I always
>figured people thought I drowned puppies and pulled the wings off
>pixies.

I know, right? If I come across as defensive in my reply to that post, it may be because the jargon itself has become tantamount to an accusation these days. It's the 21st-century social discourse equivalent of questions like, "So when did you stop robbing liquor stores to pay for your heroin habit?"

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#55, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by McFortner on Aug-06-14 at 08:29 PM
In response to message #47
> "So when did you stop robbing liquor
>stores to pay for your heroin habit?"
>

The proper response to that should be, "You wound me, sir, you truly wound me. It's my high internet bandwidth that I'm supporting...."

Michael C. Fortner
"Maxim 37: There is no such thing as "overkill".
There is only "open fire" and "I need to reload".


#51, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Arashi on Aug-06-14 at 01:05 PM
In response to message #0
To be honest, while the Anthy/Utena/Corwin evolution... irritated me. I could see it build from a while back and even saw how it would work/fit into the narritive. So by the time it was offical, I had enough time to get used to it and accept it.

In actuality, the Kate/Juri/Miki thing torqued me off more. While I know it was not even remotely the intention but following on the heels of A/U/C, all I could initially see was a statement that a woman couldn't be in a relationship with another woman without wanting a guy at some point. Wrong and unfair, I know, but that was my initial throughts and feelings when I came across that scene.

Although nothing will ever get me to ragequit anything on EPU, I enjoy everything far too much. Besides, it's only pixles. :P


#52, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Gryphon on Aug-06-14 at 01:08 PM
In response to message #51
>In actuality, the Kate/Juri/Miki thing torqued me off more.

Which is kind of funny in the context of Heteronormative Outrage, since Juri's weird thing for Miki is canonical,* and Kate just kind of got caught in the middle of it. :)

--G.
* As is Touga's. Maybe it's just Miki.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


#53, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Arashi on Aug-06-14 at 01:15 PM
In response to message #52
>>In actuality, the Kate/Juri/Miki thing torqued me off more.
>
>Which is kind of funny in the context of Heteronormative Outrage,
>since Juri's weird thing for Miki is canonical,* and Kate just kind of
>got caught in the middle of it. :)
>
>--G.
>* As is Touga's. Maybe it's just Miki.
>-><-
>Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
>Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
>zgryphon at that email service Google has
>Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Also true. I never said I had an abundence of logic when I had the reaction. ;)

And yes, I would say there is Something About Mer--er--Miki, since nearly all of the side cast (including his sister) seem to want him at some point.


#54, RE: And then, one day...
Posted by Gryphon on Aug-06-14 at 01:18 PM
In response to message #53
LAST EDITED ON Aug-06-14 AT 01:19 PM (EDT)
 
>And yes, I would say there is Something About Mer--er--Miki,
>since nearly all of the side cast (including his sister) seem to want
>him at some point.

Well, be fair. At that point in the canon, Kozue is a) up for basically anything and b) such a narcissist she couldn't possibly not want to BLANK - Charles Nelson Reilly! a male version of herself. :)

--G.
Was that my outside voice? I do apologize.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.