After reading Corwin's description of laws and rights for sentinent machines, I have to ask: What kind of authority, if any, does Turing have over the citizens of Cybertron? And what are the Autobots stance on these laws?

I guess this is what happens when you read SotS and watch the Tranformers movie at the same time.

Matrix Dragon

>After reading Corwin's description of laws and rights for sentinent
>machines, I have to ask: What kind of authority, if any, does Turing
>have over the citizens of Cybertron? And what are the Autobots stance
>on these laws?

The robots of Cybertron are a machine race that was ancient when Earth was a barren lump of molten rock. They get a grandfather clause. :)

Or, somewhat more seriously, the galactic laws which the Turing Center helps to enforce were written with human-built mechanoids and fixed machine intelligences in mind. Machine species which don't have a demonstrable origin as tools of organic life - the Transformers and Cyben come to mind - are exempt. (Before anyone asks, no, this doesn't mean that a Turing-certified citizen robot could build another robot and have that robot be automatically free. It would, in fact, belong to the citizen robot, just as though its creator were human. This is somewhat analogous to the "fruit of the poison tree" concept in the rules of legal evidence.)

There's also the small fact that, if the United Federation of Planets attempted to impose mechanoid servitude laws on, say, the Cyben, the Cyben would wipe out all organic life in the galaxy just to make plain their lack of amusement.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>There's also the small fact that, if the United Federation of Planets
>attempted to impose mechanoid servitude laws on, say, the Cyben, the
>Cyben would wipe out all organic life in the galaxy just to make plain
>their lack of amusement.

From years ago in the UFP Diplomatic Corps, as Ambassador Dimwitty is being briefed by his adjutant, Jaime Retief:

"Sir, we just received word from the Cyben on that whole 'you belong to us' statement."
"And?"
"This is the response. <thump>"
"...that's the remains of the ambassador?"
"No, sir, that's the remains of the ambassadorial FLEET. Oh, and I've been asked to inform you that Optimus Prime has scheduled a meeting for you for later. And I'm taking a long lunch."
"How long?"
"It depends on whether you actually think you have a chance against Optimus Prime in direct combat I think I'll be back at 1:05 instead of 1 PM as usual, to give the cleaning staff time to mop you up. Sir. I left a copy of your will and a funeral checklist brochure on your desk. I'd like to say it was nice working with you, but I do so hate to lie."

--
Geoff Depew - Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Malakite of Tech Support Professionals

>There's also the small fact that, if the United Federation of Planets >attempted to impose mechanoid servitude laws on, say, the Cyben, the Cyben >would wipe out all organic life in the galaxy just to make plain their lack of >amusement.

I get the feeling that many of the old-style Decepticons would react pretty much the same. Although Megatron and Soundwave might now be considered tools for Priss and Sylvie, I'd love to see some stuffy offical try and tell them that.

"BOOM!!"
"Hey, nice blast crater."

Matrix Dragon

I was thinking about this before.

It would be ideal if creations like Dorothy were treated like children by the law. Of course, how to do this properly is much more complex.

Beyond me, anyways.

--Kylone

A: "What is the difference between a fighter and a warrior?"
Q: "The warrior is defeated, especially at higher levels."

>It would be ideal if creations like Dorothy were treated like children
>by the law. Of course, how to do this properly is much more complex.

Why? What possible relationship between children and robots could there be, save perhaps emotionally? Robots are capable of much more heinous crimes than average children (including the fact that they are equipped for extremely dangerous hacks without much danger, and the fact that their bodies are often ten times stronger and more easily repaired, let alone add-ons), and will always know what they are doing (as opposed to children, who generally do not think things through).

-Craig

>>It would be ideal if creations like Dorothy were treated like children
>>by the law. Of course, how to do this properly is much more complex.
>
>Why? What possible relationship between children and robots could
>there be, save perhaps emotionally? Robots are capable of much
>more heinous crimes than average children (including the fact that
>they are equipped for extremely dangerous hacks without much danger,
>and the fact that their bodies are often ten times stronger and more
>easily repaired, let alone add-ons), and will always know what they
>are doing (as opposed to children, who generally do not think things
>through).

Those are, indeed, valid points. However, people who create robots will generally fall into one of two categories: 1) they want a tool; 2) they want to create life. Robots that are created as tools are unlikely to have enough sentience to pass a Touring Board anyway. Those that are created as 'life' can be treated as children for the sake of the law: the 'parent' is legally responsible for the robot's actions until it achieves its 'majority'; the robot achieves its 'majority' (i.e. is sufficiently socialized to wander around on its own) after x years, where x is some reasonable number. Robots that are treated like slaves fall under the child endangerment acts and so forth.

The reason why this isn't the case is evolutionary: a robot is merely a highly complex machine, and machines are merely tools. Who'd ever consider a highly advanced spanner to be its own person, after all? Utena, Corwin, Kayte and the rest are simply of a different mindset: it thinks for itself, ergo "it's life, Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, not as we know it, Captain"

Anyway, just my 0.02$...

-Z

We are Dyslexic of Borg. Your ass will be laminated.

>
>The reason why this isn't the case is evolutionary: a robot is merely
>a highly complex machine, and machines are merely tools. Who'd ever
>consider a highly advanced spanner to be its own person, after all?
>Utena, Corwin, Kayte and the rest are simply of a different mindset:
>it thinks for itself, ergo "it's life, Jim, but not as we know it, not
>as we know it, not as we know it, Captain"
>
I believe that the owner being responsible for the actions of his machines is part of the common law anyway. Turing law only applies to sufferage and recongintion of senience... something which some people won't want to do anyway.

PS. "There's Kilngons of the starbord bow, starbord bow, starbord bow. THerese klingons of the starbord bow, starborad bow, sir!"

___________________

Vaughn doesn't know I exist. I guess this explains why the rest of reality keeps ignoring me as well. >_<

Ah, but not all machines learn...

-Craig

"We come in peace/Shoot to kill/shoot to kill/shoot to kill..."

>Ah, but not all machines learn...

Neither do all humans, for that matter.

>"We come in peace/Shoot to kill/shoot to kill/shoot to kill..."

Keep it up and I'll post the entire lyrics to 'Wet Dream'.

------------------------
"saaaausaaaage... "
------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

Especially since they're ignoring the most applicable bit.

o/"It's life, Jim, but not as we know it/not as we know it/not as we know it/not as we know it, Captain o/"

Blessed be.
Nathan Baxter

>Especially since they're ignoring the most applicable bit.
>
>o/"It's life, Jim, but not as we know it/not as we know it/not as we
>know it/not as we know it, Captain o/"

that's what started this sub-sub-thread...

"I canna change the laws of physics!"

-Z

---
We are Dyslexic of Borg. Your ass will be laminated.

LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-01 AT 06:11 PM (EDT)

>>Especially since they're ignoring the most applicable bit.
>>
>>o/"It's life, Jim, but not as we know it/not as we know it/not as we
>>know it/not as we know it, Captain o/"
>
>that's what started this sub-sub-thread...
>
>"I canna change the laws of physics!"

Let it never be said that I don't follow through...

To keep things simple, in deference to Kent, I'll be nice and supply a link instead of posting the whole song:

http://www.geocities.com/davidtanny/lyrics/30addotta.htm

------------------------
Chad Collier--"Rusty snail, hold the grunion, shaken, not stirred"
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

>>Ah, but not all machines learn...
>Neither do all humans, for that matter.

the constants of life are not death and taxes
death is different for all people

the unmutable facts of existance are taxes and human stupidity, never underestimate it

>the unmutable facts of existance are taxes and human stupidity, never
>underestimate it

"The two most common elements in the Universe are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison

(a damn fine cup o' read; Eb Bob sez, "Check 'im out.")

Ebony the Black Dragon
aka Draco Draconis Ebenium
known to SFFWA as Aaron F. Johnson,
Senior Editor, Living Room Games
http://www.lrgames.com

>Those are, indeed, valid points. However, people who create robots
>will generally fall into one of two categories: 1) they want a tool;
>2) they want to create life

Ah, but you forget the third category from UF:

3) Geniuses getting drunk and/or stoned in close proximity to a laptop computer.

You wake up the next morning, have no idea what you've been doing, and some AI says "mama".

Kind of parallel to some real life situations...

--rR

>Ah, but you forget the third category from UF:
>3) Geniuses getting drunk and/or stoned in close proximity to a laptop >computer.
>You wake up the next morning, have no idea what you've been doing, and some AI >says "mama".

So far, we've got Vision, the Angels and a few other beings, organic and electronic. Creating life by accident created UF.

Matrix Dragon

>There's also the small fact that, if the United Federation of Planets
>attempted to impose mechanoid servitude laws on, say, the Cyben, the
>Cyben would wipe out all organic life in the galaxy just to make plain
>their lack of amusement.

Are the Cyben native to UF or did you borrow them from somewhere else? I've never heard of them anywhere else.

Captain Willard
Commander, Free Socorro Liberation Front

>Are the Cyben native to UF or did you borrow them from somewhere else?
> I've never heard of them anywhere else.

They're from an old PC fighting game, FX Fighter. It was a very cheesy game, but I rather enjoyed it, especially the Cyben character, "30". He had a couple of cool moves that I appropriated for my Warrior's Legacy avatar, most notably his double kick.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

LAST EDITED ON Aug-08-01 AT 05:56 PM (EDT)

>They're from an old PC fighting game, FX Fighter.

Ahh, OK. I'd always wondered where they came from.

And as long as we're talking about Transformers, how does the whole Beast Wars/ Beast Machines thing fit into UF? Besides some of the characters showing up in Twilight, I mean.

The tech isn't a problem. Basically they've just inverted what happened to Hammer. I just wonder when they fit into the timeline, and if Priss's handgun is going to have to take a vacation to go burn a certain techno-organic dragon a new one...

Thanks

Captain Willard
Commander, Free Socorro Liberation Front

>The tech isn't a problem. Basically they've just inverted what
>happened to Hammer. I just wonder when they fit into the timeline,
>and if Priss's handgun is going to have to take a vacation to go burn
>a certain techno-organic dragon a new one...
>

Heh. He probobly won't have to take a vacation, per say. I'm certain that Priss will be more than glad to help him deal with that giglomanic (he makes the original look sane, darnit) idiot.

___________________

Vaughn doesn't know I exist. I guess this explains why the rest of reality keeps ignoring me as well. >_<

>Heh. He probobly won't have to take a vacation, per say. I'm certain
>that Priss will be more than glad to help him deal with that
>giglomanic (he makes the original look sane, darnit) idiot.

Priss probably wouldn't LET him go off by himself like that. This is Kei's daughter we're talking about here... "If he stole your name, then I want a piece of his ass too!"

As for Junior (as I got into the habit of calling the BW Meggy) I agree. Even at his worst, Megatron never called himself a god.

Alas, we probably won't ever see the titanic battle of Megatron v. Megatron. As long as Junior stays in his own parallel universe, anyway. Unless the Steel Furies end up there, somehow.

We'll just have to re-read Cybertron Dreams and the battle of Megatron v. Galvatron. Which was one HELL of a battle!

Captain Willard
Commander, Free Socorro Liberation Front

>And as long as we're talking about Transformers, how does the whole
>Beast Wars/ Beast Machines thing fit into UF? Besides some of the
>characters showing up in Twilight, I mean.

Well, Beast Machines doesn't fit into anything, because it was so incredibly bad I still can't quite believe they made it. Beast Wars, on the other hand, I'm quite fond of, so...

>The tech isn't a problem. Basically they've just inverted what
>happened to Hammer.

More or less, yeah. If he had a robot mode, Hammer would be a Beast Warrior whose beast form is a human.

>I just wonder when they fit into the timeline,

They don't, particularly; they're from a parallel universe. That's a Golden Age story, if I ever get around to finishing it.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>They don't, particularly; they're from a parallel universe. That's a
>Golden Age story, if I ever get around to finishing it.

Oh, so these are the guys that 'So You've Just Arrived...' was written for!

Interesting.

--
Geoff Depew - Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Malakite of Lightning and Angel of Tech Support Professionals
(They won't give me LARTs, they say that's restricted to Michael.)

>>They don't, particularly; they're from a parallel universe. That's a
>>Golden Age story, if I ever get around to finishing it.
>
>Oh, so these are the guys that 'So You've Just Arrived...' was written
>for!
>
>Interesting.

Actually, Edison and Derek sat down one day, shortly after Derek became the Bugrom god, and Edison mentioned how handy it is to know what to expect when he goes dimention hopping, and Derek thought "Hey, that's a neat idea... maybe I can write a book on that... kind of like those silly 'For Dummies' books back in the 90s... That might be fun..."

and so it began...

... or maybe not...

-Z

---
We are Dyslexic of Borg. Your ass will be laminated.

>Well, Beast Machines doesn't fit into anything, because it was
>so incredibly bad I still can't quite believe they made it.

Here, here! I agree with that one!

>Beast Wars, on the other hand, I'm quite fond of, so...

I didn't like it at first, but it got better. By the end I thought it was really cool. Strange, but cool.

>They don't, particularly; they're from a parallel universe. That's a
>Golden Age story, if I ever get around to finishing it.

OK. That certainly works. It just made me wonder. Kei and Dinobot were obviously good friends... I loved that sceen, BTW. "I only had time to call my really tough friends." "Oh. I see." ROTFL!

Talk about kindred spirits!

Captain Willard
Commander, Free Socorro Liberation Front

>OK. That certainly works. It just made me wonder. Kei and Dinobot
>were obviously good friends... I loved that sceen, BTW. "I only
>had time to call my really tough friends." "Oh. I see." ROTFL!
>
>Talk about kindred spirits!

Heheh. Indeed; one of the first thoughts I had when I saw an episode with Big D in it was, "Kei would hang out with this guy." :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/