According to Utena in Duelists of the Rose, the point of the Institute Duelists' Society "is to create a venue for weapons artists of all different styles and traditions to test themselves against one another, to face diverse opponents in a freestyle contest." (even though it was really created just to give Utena an excuse to go about openly armed). From that, I assume that IDS members practice their various weapons-based martial arts with and against each other.

A rather large chunk of A Rose for the New Year is devoted to Kate getting permission from Sensei Dad to practice with Utena. Kate's stated reason is that he has to gauge Utena's skill first:

Gryphon looked at Kate. "As journeywoman," he told her, "you're free to pursue any route you choose. You don't need me to approve of your sparring partners."

"I know," Kate replied, "but with our differing styles... I stand to learn and to teach, not merely to provide an opponent for sparring. Such a thing might not be proper for one of my stature." Utena noticed that her way of speaking to him became much more formal when addressing this subject, which she found interesting and a little unnerving.

Gryphon considered this, nodded again. "Fair enough. You're right as far as it goes - you're not a master yet, so you have no business taking a student." He smiled a little, glancing from one girl to the other. "But a collaboration of equals, enriching the styles of both - that's integral to the roots of the Asagiri Katsujinkenryuu. Tetsuo Asagiri and Talar Kem were just such a pair, and look what -they- made together."

It seems to me that the IDS presents Kate the exact same quandry she was faced with when it came to practicing with Utena - many people, some with very large differences of style from Kate's, leading to multiple opportunities to both learn and teach, not just to spar. But as a Journeywoman, she's not allowed to be in such a position without her Sensei's permission, and he's only given her permission to be in that position with Utena, and then only after personally evaluating Utena's skills.

Is there an inconsistency here, or am I seeing things? Wouldn't Kate have to get permission from Gryphon-as-Sensei to take part in the IDS (above and beyond any permission the school might require from Gryphon and Kei as parents)? Wouldn't each member the IDS have to be screened by Gryphon-as-Sensei, as Utena was, before Kate is allowed to face them in some IDS activity? Where's the difference between the two situations, because I'm having a hard time seeing it.

Regards,

Jeanne

>According to Utena in Duelists of the Rose, the point of the
>Institute Duelists' Society "is to create a venue for weapons artists
>of all different styles and traditions to test themselves against one
>another, to face diverse opponents in a freestyle contest." (even
>though it was really created just to give Utena an excuse to go about
>openly armed). From that, I assume that IDS members practice their
>various weapons-based martial arts with and against each other.
>
>A rather large chunk of A Rose for the New Year is devoted to
>Kate getting permission from Sensei Dad to practice with Utena. Kate's
>stated reason is that he has to gauge Utena's skill first:
>
> Gryphon looked at Kate. "As journeywoman," he told her, "you're
>free to pursue any route you choose. You don't need me to approve of
>your sparring partners."
>
> "I know," Kate replied, "but with our differing styles... I stand
>to learn and to teach, not merely to provide an opponent for sparring.
> Such a thing might not be proper for one of my stature." Utena
>noticed that her way of speaking to him became much more formal when
>addressing this subject, which she found interesting and a little
>unnerving.
>
> Gryphon considered this, nodded again. "Fair enough. You're right
>as far as it goes - you're not a master yet, so you have no business
>taking a student." He smiled a little, glancing from one girl to the
>other. "But a collaboration of equals, enriching the styles of both -
>that's integral to the roots of the Asagiri Katsujinkenryuu. Tetsuo
>Asagiri and Talar Kem were just such a pair, and look what -they- made
>together."
>
>It seems to me that the IDS presents Kate the exact same quandry she
>was faced with when it came to practicing with Utena - many people,
>some with very large differences of style from Kate's, leading to
>multiple opportunities to both learn and teach, not just to spar. But
>as a Journeywoman, she's not allowed to be in such a position without
>her Sensei's permission, and he's only given her permission to be in
>that position with Utena, and then only after personally evaluating
>Utena's skills.
>
>Is there an inconsistency here, or am I seeing things? Wouldn't Kate
>have to get permission from Gryphon-as-Sensei to take part in the IDS
>(above and beyond any permission the school might require from Gryphon
>and Kei as parents)? Wouldn't each member the IDS have to be screened
>by Gryphon-as-Sensei, as Utena was, before Kate is allowed to face
>them in some IDS activity? Where's the difference between the two
>situations, because I'm having a hard time seeing it.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Jeanne

I would think that the 2 cases are different in terms of exposure. Kate and Utena are (I assume) training together daily, while matches with the duelest society are erratic, and have yet to include Kate at all. At that level, it really becomes occasional fighting not so much as teaching and learning.

My thoughts, take them as you will.

--------------------------------------
Whoa! What IS it?!

>According to Utena in Duelists of the Rose, the point of the
>Institute Duelists' Society "is to create a venue for weapons artists
>of all different styles and traditions to test themselves against one
>another, to face diverse opponents in a freestyle contest." (even
>though it was really created just to give Utena an excuse to go about
>openly armed). From that, I assume that IDS members practice their
>various weapons-based martial arts with and against each other.
>

(SNIP!)

> Gryphon considered this, nodded again. "Fair enough. You're right
>as far as it goes - you're not a master yet, so you have no business
>taking a student." He smiled a little, glancing from one girl to the
>other. "But a collaboration of equals, enriching the styles of both -
>that's integral to the roots of the Asagiri Katsujinkenryuu. Tetsuo
>Asagiri and Talar Kem were just such a pair, and look what -they- made
>together."
>
>It seems to me that the IDS presents Kate the exact same quandry she
>was faced with when it came to practicing with Utena - many people,
>some with very large differences of style from Kate's, leading to
>multiple opportunities to both learn and teach, not just to spar.

And the quoted section I left in seems like a blanket permission for Kate to spar with anybody that she chooses. The IDS is not a student/teacher relationship, but a fight between equals.

As I understand it, Juri, Miki, and Saionji are Utena's equal or better in swordsmanship, or they wouldn't have been on the Ohtori Academy Student Council. (Well, I'm not too sure about Miki or Saionji at this point, but that's my own opinions bubbling through.) In any case, this could easily be used as reasoning to allow Kate to spar with them, though she won't take anybody as a student at this time.

And I suspect that Gryphon would approve for another reason entirely. The IDS presents a spread of styles. Even if Kate doesn't learn her opponent's attacks, she needs to learn defenses against those attacks, and practice them. Or, at least, she needs to understand that when a fencer/kendoka/Minbari with a fighting pike does X, it means Y, and that's why Gryphon taught her defense Z.

Peter Eng
--
Why do the Minbari call those things fighting pikes, anyway?
Looks like a collapsible quarterstaff to me, even if the style isn't quarterstaff.

>Why do the Minbari call those things fighting pikes, anyway?
>Looks like a collapsible quarterstaff to me, even if the style isn't
>quarterstaff.

Bad translation from Minbari?

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>>Why do the Minbari call those things fighting pikes, anyway?
>>Looks like a collapsible quarterstaff to me, even if the style isn't
>>quarterstaff.
>

According to the Babylon 5 book, "To Dream in the City of Sorrows," which is about Ranger training in the Minbari capitol of Tuzanor, they are called "denn bok." That's plural, pretty sure. Denn boks sounds wrong...

Ask a local rabid Babbler. :)

- R. Mayo

Well, I've never prayed, but tonight I am on my knees, yeah.
I need to hear some sounds that recognize the pain in me, yeah.

I let the melody shine, let it cleanse my mind, I feel free now.
But the airwaves are clean and there's nobody singin' to me now.

- The Verve, "Bittersweet Symphony"

>>Why do the Minbari call those things fighting pikes, anyway?
>>Looks like a collapsible quarterstaff to me, even if the style isn't
>>quarterstaff.
>
>Bad translation from Minbari?

To me, it will always be the Minbari Buck-And-A-Quarterstaff. :)

Patrick Chester
"...could you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

>>>Why do the Minbari call those things fighting pikes, anyway?
>>>Looks like a collapsible quarterstaff to me, even if the style isn't
>>>quarterstaff.
>>
>>Bad translation from Minbari?
>
>To me, it will always be the Minbari Buck-And-A-Quarterstaff. :)
>

I think it should get an extra quarter for coolness... The Minbari Buck-And-Two-Quarters-Quarterstaff :)

-Z

---
We are Dyslexic of Borg. Your ass will be laminated.

>>>>Why do the Minbari call those things fighting pikes, anyway?
>>>>Looks like a collapsible quarterstaff to me, even if the style isn't
>>>>quarterstaff.
>>>
>>>Bad translation from Minbari?
>>
>>To me, it will always be the Minbari Buck-And-A-Quarterstaff. :)
>>
>
>I think it should get an extra quarter for coolness... The Minbari
>Buck-And-Two-Quarters-Quarterstaff :)

"Buck-and-a-half-staff", methinks.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

>>According to Utena in Duelists of the Rose, the point of the
>>Institute Duelists' Society "is to create a venue for weapons artists
>>of all different styles and traditions to test themselves against one
>>another, to face diverse opponents in a freestyle contest." (even
>>though it was really created just to give Utena an excuse to go about
>>openly armed). From that, I assume that IDS members practice their
>>various weapons-based martial arts with and against each other.
>>
>
>(SNIP!)
>
>> Gryphon considered this, nodded again. "Fair enough. You're right
>>as far as it goes - you're not a master yet, so you have no business
>>taking a student." He smiled a little, glancing from one girl to the
>>other. "But a collaboration of equals, enriching the styles of both -
>>that's integral to the roots of the Asagiri Katsujinkenryuu. Tetsuo
>>Asagiri and Talar Kem were just such a pair, and look what -they- made
>>together."
>>
>>It seems to me that the IDS presents Kate the exact same quandry she
>>was faced with when it came to practicing with Utena - many people,
>>some with very large differences of style from Kate's, leading to
>>multiple opportunities to both learn and teach, not just to spar.
>
>And the quoted section I left in seems like a blanket permission for
>Kate to spar with anybody that she chooses. The IDS is not a
>student/teacher relationship, but a fight between equals.

Sparring, yes. But what I was reading into things was that part of Kate's original problem with a sparring fight between equals with Utena (requiring her to feel the need to get permission from her Sensei to do so) was that their styles of fighting were so different that, as Kate said, she would be put in the position of both learning and teaching, and as a Journeyman she's not supposed to be doing that sort of thing with anyone but her Sensei.

>As I understand it, Juri, Miki, and Saionji are Utena's equal or
>better in swordsmanship, or they wouldn't have been on the Ohtori
>Academy Student Council. (Well, I'm not too sure about Miki or
>Saionji at this point, but that's my own opinions bubbling through.)
>In any case, this could easily be used as reasoning to allow Kate to
>spar with them, though she won't take anybody as a student at this
>time.

I wasn't really questioning anyone's ability in their chosen style, but rather wondering about the learning and teaching of other styles, intentional or not. There always comes a time when you're spending time practicing or opposing or just observing someone of a different style, whatever your art (martial or not, sparring or not), that you will start learning different things from them, and they you. Your style gets "contaminated" by them, they get contaminated by you, and in A Rose for the New Year Kate semed to be very concerned about this inadvertent contamination. She even went to the extent of asking permission to train with someone whose chosen sword style was much different from hers.

Seeing the wide range of styles presented by the members of the IDS, I was thinking that maybe Kate would have the same concerns about training with them as she did about training with Utena. But, as was answered in another message, it isn't a concern because she's not spending very much time training with them at all.

>And I suspect that Gryphon would approve for another reason entirely.
>The IDS presents a spread of styles. Even if Kate doesn't learn her
>opponent's attacks, she needs to learn defenses against those attacks,
>and practice them. Or, at least, she needs to understand that when a
>fencer/kendoka/Minbari with a fighting pike does X, it means Y, and
>that's why Gryphon taught her defense Z.

Oh, no question about that.

Regards,

Jeanne

>Is there an inconsistency here, or am I seeing things? Wouldn't Kate
>have to get permission from Gryphon-as-Sensei to take part in the IDS
>(above and beyond any permission the school might require from Gryphon
>and Kei as parents)? Wouldn't each member the IDS have to be screened
>by Gryphon-as-Sensei, as Utena was, before Kate is allowed to face
>them in some IDS activity? Where's the difference between the two
>situations, because I'm having a hard time seeing it.

The difference, basically, is that Kaitlyn and Utena are training together, face to face, blade to blade, every day, usually for a couple of hours at a stretch. They're sharing what used to be Kate's daily solo workout, from 4 to 6 in the afternoon. As such, they're having a lot of martial contact, and that will inevitably cause a bleeding-together of their styles.

In the context of the Duelists' Society, there isn't nearly so much intermixing. Kate can hardly spend two hours a day training with each and every individual Duelist, nor would she particularly want to. The Society doesn't train together like, say, the Fencing Club or the school soccer team do; for the most part, they only cross swords for actual duels, which aren't all that frequent, nor do they last all that long. Occasionally a couple of Duelists will pair off for sparring - T'skaia and Juri, for instance, in A Question of Faith, but by and large they don't train together the way Kate and Utena do.

Kaitlyn's prospective opponents for duels don't have to be evaluated, since as a journeywoman she's expected to defend herself against any challenger as a matter of course. It's only fully-involved, regular-basis, high-time training partners she feels concerned about Gryphon's opinion of.

(It's also worth pointing out that Kate is more concerned with the issue than Gryphon is; he basically squared off with Utena to humor Kate, and because he was curious about her.)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>>Is there an inconsistency here, or am I seeing things? Wouldn't Kate
>>have to get permission from Gryphon-as-Sensei to take part in the IDS
>>(above and beyond any permission the school might require from Gryphon
>>and Kei as parents)? Wouldn't each member the IDS have to be screened
>>by Gryphon-as-Sensei, as Utena was, before Kate is allowed to face
>>them in some IDS activity? Where's the difference between the two
>>situations, because I'm having a hard time seeing it.
>
>The difference, basically, is that Kaitlyn and Utena are training
>together, face to face, blade to blade, every day, usually for
>a couple of hours at a stretch. They're sharing what used to be
>Kate's daily solo workout, from 4 to 6 in the afternoon. As such,
>they're having a lot of martial contact, and that will
>inevitably cause a bleeding-together of their styles.
>
>In the context of the Duelists' Society, there isn't nearly so much
>intermixing. Kate can hardly spend two hours a day training with each
>and every individual Duelist, nor would she particularly want to. The
>Society doesn't train together like, say, the Fencing Club or the
>school soccer team do; for the most part, they only cross swords for
>actual duels, which aren't all that frequent, nor do they last all
>that long. Occasionally a couple of Duelists will pair off for
>sparring - T'skaia and Juri, for instance, in A Question of
>Faith, but by and large they don't train together the way Kate and
>Utena do.

OK, that makes sense. I had the impression that the IDS met like a regular club or team does - a couple times a week for an hour or two, and the members do sparring or "hey, that's a neat looking Denn Bok, how do you use it?" sort of stuff or whatever. Anyway, I just had the impression that there was more time spent with the IDS, and therefore more opportunity for cross-contamination of style than there apparently is.

>Kaitlyn's prospective opponents for duels don't have to be evaluated,
>since as a journeywoman she's expected to defend herself against any
>challenger as a matter of course. It's only fully-involved,
>regular-basis, high-time training partners she feels concerned about
>Gryphon's opinion of.

So she does sometimes spar with the others of the IDS?

>(It's also worth pointing out that Kate is more concerned with the
>issue than Gryphon is; he basically squared off with Utena to humor
>Kate, and because he was curious about her.)

I see.

Please don't take offense, but it sounds like the IDS is truly the sham organization (I'm at a loss for a better word) it was originally created to be (as it came into being solely to provide Utena an excuse to carry live steel in public). For all you've described the group members doing, well, they certainly don't need to belong to the IDS or any other organization to do that. They may have created "a venue for weapons artists of all different styles and traditions to test themselves against one another, to face diverse opponents in a freestyle contest", but it seems to me that that's just on paper. It's a shame that the members, as described above or seen in the stories to date, don't seem to be interested in taking advantage of the opportunity they have.

But then maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, and the stories just haven't gotten to the point where the IDS members start taking it seriously yet.

Regards,

Jeanne

>Please don't take offense, but it sounds like the IDS is truly the
>sham organization (I'm at a loss for a better word) it was originally
>created to be (as it came into being solely to provide Utena an excuse
>to carry live steel in public). For all you've described the group
>members doing, well, they certainly don't need to belong to the IDS or
>any other organization to do that. They may have created "a venue for
>weapons artists of all different styles and traditions to test
>themselves against one another, to face diverse opponents in a
>freestyle contest", but it seems to me that that's just on paper. It's
>a shame that the members, as described above or seen in the stories to
>date, don't seem to be interested in taking advantage of the
>opportunity they have.

For one thing, who says they aren't?

No, they don't train together in any uniform or organized sense. No, they don't compete in tournaments or the like (yet). However, they -do- socialize, and they -do- spar, and on rare occasions they duel.

If this seems like a sham to you, consider: Kate was, technically, walking around outlaw with her concealed blade. Utena wanted to wear a blade openly. The only outlet available to either was controlled by someone who despides them both. This is why the Duellists were formed; not so that they -would- fight together every meeting, but that they -could- fight if they chose to do so. Nobody is taking that choice away from them, either by prohibiting or mandating their activity.

Redneck

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope

>
>>Please don't take offense, but it sounds like the IDS is truly the
>>sham organization (I'm at a loss for a better word) it was originally
>>created to be (as it came into being solely to provide Utena an excuse
>>to carry live steel in public). For all you've described the group
>>members doing, well, they certainly don't need to belong to the IDS or
>>any other organization to do that. They may have created "a venue for
>>weapons artists of all different styles and traditions to test
>>themselves against one another, to face diverse opponents in a
>>freestyle contest", but it seems to me that that's just on paper. It's
>>a shame that the members, as described above or seen in the stories to
>>date, don't seem to be interested in taking advantage of the
>>opportunity they have.
>
>For one thing, who says they aren't?
>
>No, they don't train together in any uniform or organized sense. No,
>they don't compete in tournaments or the like (yet). However, they
>-do- socialize, and they -do- spar, and on rare occasions they duel.

And they don't need the IDS to do any of those things.

>If this seems like a sham to you, consider: Kate was, technically,
>walking around outlaw with her concealed blade. Utena wanted to wear a
>blade openly. The only outlet available to either was controlled by
>someone who despides them both. This is why the Duellists were formed;
>not so that they -would- fight together every meeting, but that they
>-could- fight if they chose to do so. Nobody is taking that choice
>away from them, either by prohibiting or mandating their activity.

Yes, the official reason for the IDS to exist bears no resemblence to the true reason the IDS does exist.

IMO it's a shame that, as described by Gryphon in another message, none of the members seem to be interested in truly taking advantage of the reasons for the IDS to exist that are in the charter (as mentioned by Utena during her discussion with the review committee). Nobody's forcing them to practice or spar or duel, but then none of them, as described by Gryphon, seem to be very interested in doing any of that in the first place.

So why are they in the IDS then? It can't be social, because they were all in the same circle or fringes of that circle to begin with (Sky was a resident of Galaxy House, where members of Kate's band live; people who visit Galaxy House would certainly know who he is) or would have turned up due to other reasons (Mia and the email). A club for beating up Liza? Sure Liza, junior league villianess that she is, deserves all she gets, but you don't need the IDS to get even with Liza.

Like I said, I think these characters have been presented a great opportunity, if only they'd pay attention to what the charter they wrote for their own organization says. But none of them, to date anyway, seem interested in doing so, not in the slightest. But then, we are talking about fictional teenagers here, who, being both fictional and teenagers, all have rather bad cases of the "I'm immortal (almost literally, in this context), I never make mistakes or errors of judgement, I'm always right" syndrome. Being both non-fictional and definitely not a teenager, I think they're wasting a golden opportunity to be exposed to, or even learn, new things that they may find useful in the future.

That's just one person's opinion and C+C of the IDS.

Regards,

Jeanne

>Like I said, I think these characters have been presented a great
>opportunity, if only they'd pay attention to what the charter they
>wrote for their own organization says.

Give them time. It's only March.

>But none of them, to date
>anyway, seem interested in doing so, not in the slightest.

"Seem" is the operative word there. I haven't shown their every waking moment; other things have been more important in the space and time alloted. (Allotted? Slag. It doesn't look right either way. I hate it when that happens. I could go look it up, but I think I'll leave this glimpse into my sometimes irritating mental processes intact instead.)

Anyway, I think it's a bit early to be judging the success or failure of the experiment.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>>Like I said, I think these characters have been presented a great
>>opportunity, if only they'd pay attention to what the charter they
>>wrote for their own organization says.
>
>Give them time. It's only March.
>
>>But none of them, to date
>>anyway, seem interested in doing so, not in the slightest.
>
>"Seem" is the operative word there. I haven't shown their every

It bears noting that Sky is rather much interested in sparring, and apparently dueling, when the proper opponents present themselves.<He left the fencing club specificly to one day duel with Utena IIRC>.

-={(Astynax)}=-
"I'm bored, it's late, I felt like adding trivia;)"

>Anyway, I think it's a bit early to be judging the success or failure
>of the experiment.

Quite true. I'm just disappointed in them now.

As I said earlier in this thread, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, and the stories just haven't gotten to the point where the IDS members start taking it seriously yet. And I think you've pretty much confirmed that being the case in a couple of your messages.

Regards,

Jeanne

>So why are they in the IDS then? It can't be social, because they were
>all in the same circle or fringes of that circle to begin with (Sky
>was a resident of Galaxy House, where members of Kate's band live;
>people who visit Galaxy House would certainly know who he is) or would
>have turned up due to other reasons (Mia and the email). A club for
>beating up Liza? Sure Liza, junior league villianess that she is,
>deserves all she gets, but you don't need the IDS to get even with
>Liza.

Well, if memory serves, Sky didn't start hanging around until he saw Utena fight. Mia may have inquired about the email with or without the IDS, but the IDS does offer an instant sense of comraderie for her (without Corwin around anyway). So, I guess you could say they might have gotten together even without the IDS, but there was garuantee.

Also, as I read this thread, and after I read Redneck's post answering questions, the IDS is really starting to remind me of the CFMF... It was founded for kind of a limited purpose (win a civil war/allow Utena to carry her blade), but grew by its own dynamic power. But maybe it's just me drawing odd parallels.

Static-Pulse
- the most impulsive post alive
DarkBeast.com

>Also, as I read this thread, and after I read Redneck's post answering
>questions, the IDS is really starting to remind me of the CFMF... It
>was founded for kind of a limited purpose (win a civil war/allow Utena
>to carry her blade), but grew by its own dynamic power. But maybe
>it's just me drawing odd parallels.
>

I disagree with you... I'm surprised Kris hasn't disagreed with you yet, either. The Freespacers were NOT just founded to help with the Zardon civil war. Rather, Kris saw an injustice that the WDF legaly could not become involved in. He saw a need for a people of no-nation, who could come to the aid of underdogs who might be on the wrong side of the political fence, who could come in and aid in situations where the WDF could not.

Rather like the fact that while the Salusian coup was on, and the counter-coup, the WDF as a whole sat it out... it had to. OF course, there was nothing stoping several senior officers from taking a bit of well earned leave. What they did on that leave was, of course, no-body's business but their own.

In fact, if this holds true in any-way, its that while both the IDF and CFMF were created to serve a specific need, they've both gone on to become much more than thier origins. In that, I will agree. That the CFMF or the IDF were totaly created as shams, I don't.

I will agree that the IDF isn't living up to its billing ON SCREEN yet, but that's all I'M willing to admit.

___________________

Vaughn doesn't know I exist. I guess this explains why the rest of reality keeps ignoring me as well. >_<

LAST EDITED ON Sep-07-01 AT 10:05 AM (EDT)

>In fact, if this holds true in any-way, its that while both the IDF
>and CFMF were created to serve a specific need, they've both gone on
>to become much more than thier origins. In that, I will agree. That
>the CFMF or the IDF were totaly created as shams, I don't.

I hope I didn't come off as sounding like I thought the CFMF was a sham, simply because I believe (realizing, yes, this is fiction) it was started for a very good reason! Perhaps I'm not looking at the IDF from the perspective of Kate and Utena, and in such I'm confusing perspectives. It's just, to me, both the IDF and CFMF seem like they were created due to one specific reason. The CFMF would have never been founded if Zardon hadn't needed it; the IDF would never have been formed if Liza wasn't a bitch. Again, I'm probably drawing odd parallels, but please don't think I'm trying to write the CFMF off as a sham.

I reread your post, and waned to add: Now that you mention it, yes, the CFMF was created for more than just Zardon (if my memory serves). But the IDF was also created under the auspices that anyone who wanted to duel could have an option other than just Liza.

Static-Pulse
- the most impulsive post alive
DarkBeast.com

>>they don't compete in tournaments or the like (yet). However, they
>>-do- socialize, and they -do- spar, and on rare occasions they duel.
>And they don't need the IDS to do any of those things.

I don't know where you live, but around these parts sparring or dueling as they do will get you arrested if you're not part of some sanctioned group. Without the IDS, several members couldn't even own they weapons legally, let alone carry them - and forget about *using* them in any manner.

And, ignoring the law, they'd be violating a number of institute rules. You can't hold a sword duel and then get off by saying it was just for funsies.

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>>>they don't compete in tournaments or the like (yet). However, they
>>>-do- socialize, and they -do- spar, and on rare occasions they duel.
>>And they don't need the IDS to do any of those things.
>
>I don't know where you live, but around these parts sparring or
>dueling as they do will get you arrested if you're not part of some
>sanctioned group. Without the IDS, several members couldn't even own
>they weapons legally, let alone carry them - and forget about *using*
>them in any manner.

This didn't seem to slow pre-IDS Kate down any. At least one of her parents (Gryphon) knows Kate's been carrying a hidden sword around campus (she told him she was when she told of the fight with Saionji, assuming he didn't already know before that), and they didn't have a problem with it.

>And, ignoring the law, they'd be violating a number of institute
>rules. You can't hold a sword duel and then get off by saying it was
>just for funsies.

Who says they have to do it on campus or even in a public place?

btw - when did the "good guys" violating inconvenient rules or laws become a problem in the UF universe?

Regards,

Jeanne

>>I don't know where you live, but around these parts sparring or
>>dueling as they do will get you arrested if you're not part of some
>>sanctioned group. Without the IDS, several members couldn't even own
>>they weapons legally, let alone carry them - and forget about *using*
>>them in any manner.
>
>This didn't seem to slow pre-IDS Kate down any. At least one of her
>parents (Gryphon) knows Kate's been carrying a hidden sword around
>campus (she told him she was when she told of the fight with Saionji,
>assuming he didn't already know before that), and they didn't have a
>problem with it.

Yes, but Gryph having a problem with Kate carrying a weapon, and the institue/local law inforcement having a problem are too different things.
My father has no problems with me carrying a pistol under my coats, but the local cops would be another matter entirely. At least, until I turn 21...

>>And, ignoring the law, they'd be violating a number of institute
>>rules. You can't hold a sword duel and then get off by saying it was
>>just for funsies.
>
>Who says they have to do it on campus or even in a public place?

Umm, well it's more fun if you can have people watch you. And if you are allowed to do it, I'm sure there are stipulations that you can only do it on campus.

>btw - when did the "good guys" violating inconvenient rules or laws
>become a problem in the UF universe?

When they are 15, and trying to fit into the universe, rather then do what ever they want, 'cause they've got more firepower then everyone.

--
-Pasha
Umm, right....I'll be with you in just a sec now...

>This didn't seem to slow pre-IDS Kate down any. At least one of her
>parents (Gryphon) knows Kate's been carrying a hidden sword around
>campus (she told him she was when she told of the fight with Saionji,
>assuming he didn't already know before that)

Which he did, because he gave it to her with the express expectation that she'd carry it when she became a journeywoman.

>Who says they have to do it on campus or even in a public place?

I can't think, offhand, of an off-campus, non-public place big enough...

>btw - when did the "good guys" violating inconvenient rules or laws
>become a problem in the UF universe?

Different characters, different ways of preferring to do things. Neither Kaitlyn nor Utena like to do things non-aboveboard if they can help it, and they haven't the social or literal firepower to spit into the wind all the time... yet. For now they have to pick their battles.

Besides, exploiting the rules for one's own benefit rather than just ignoring them is a lot more fun, and part of the gweepish tradition. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>So she does sometimes spar with the others of the IDS?

Occasionally. Usually, though, she sits off to the side at meetings and watches, or reads.

>Please don't take offense, but it sounds like the IDS is truly the
>sham organization (I'm at a loss for a better word) it was originally
>created to be (as it came into being solely to provide Utena an excuse
>to carry live steel in public). For all you've described the group
>members doing, well, they certainly don't need to belong to the IDS or
>any other organization to do that.

No, they don't, particularly. The Duelists' Society isn't a sports team - they have no one to play against but each other. They aren't like the Fencing Club, which competes in tournaments; there are no inter-school dueling tournaments (yet). There isn't a league or a hard set of rules. Dueling isn't a sport.

As such, one supposes the individual students involved could simply fight duels amongst themselves without belonging to an organization dedicated to that activity, although in the process of doing so, they would be violating the school rules against interpersonal violence and committing assault according to the laws of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

> They may have created "a venue for
>weapons artists of all different styles and traditions to test
>themselves against one another, to face diverse opponents in a
>freestyle contest", but it seems to me that that's just on paper.

Well, keep in mind that the Duelists' Society format is based loosely on the Rose Tournament which Utena fought in back at Ohtori Academy. They didn't fight each other every day; in fact, the duels were spaced out across the span of days, often weeks. They certainly didn't train together as a group. Juri and Miki were both fencers, and Saionji and Touga both kendoka, but that was about the extent of it.

It's the duels themselves that are the point of a duelists' tournament, not the preparation for them. That's what makes it a freeform contest instead of an organized sport like fencing. What their version of the tournament lacks, so far, is a goal. There has to be something to fight for to make dueling meaningful; it doesn't have to be a tremendously significant reward, like the Rose Bride and all she brings with her, but there ought to be something. The Institute Duelists haven't quite worked that part out yet, and so they're somewhat lacking in direction so far.

Sto, at the end of the day, you're more or less right about the WPI Society, so far anyway. The internal tournament hasn't really started to take on a structure yet; the group is still sorting itself out; and not all of them are taking it particularly seriously. And neither Utena nor Kaitlyn would deny that it was originally conceived of for a less-than-lofty reason - it's a counterclique to Liza Broadbank's Fencing Club.

However, that doesn't necessarily mean it exists solely for that reason now. It's already growing, changing, acquiring new members who haven't joined because of that, but because of what the Society's potential is. Its officers and some members know it has the potential to grow to be something more, and encompass the ideals that are put down in its charter, but it will need time - I mean, keep in mind that it's only existed for a single school term, less than two months, at the present in-story time. And those months have been slightly hectic. And I never got round to showing an actual Society meeting, or indicate what it is that they do.

The Society will show its true worth before the end of the 2404-2405 school year; but it may not come in a manner that any of its founders or members anticipated.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>The Society will show its true worth before the end of the 2404-2405
>school year; but it may not come in a manner that any of its founders
>or members anticipated.

And there we have the last bit of the blurb that goes on the back of the Hunted Rose dvd. :)

------------------------
"All this and more in the next exciting episode of SYMPHONY OF THE SWORD!!"
------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

>"All this and more in the next exciting episode of SYMPHONY OF THE
>SWORD!!"

Wow. You just reminded me how bad the next-episode promos were for the first couple of seasons of Babylon 5. "A commemorative postage stamp brings the station to the brink of war!!! On the next heart-stopping episode of Babylon 5."

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>------------------------
>"All this and more in the next exciting episode of SYMPHONY OF THE
>SWORD!!"
>------------------------

"And more fan service!"

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

>"And more fan service!"

Fan service is tough in prose. I did get a shower scene into A Question of Faith, though. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>>>>>snip, shortform is we determine that the IDS provides a legal enabler for that vicous, sword-swinging sort of behavior that Broadbank detests<<<<<

>It's the duels themselves that are the point of a duelists'
>tournament, not the preparation for them. That's what makes it a
>freeform contest instead of an organized sport like fencing. What
>their version of the tournament lacks, so far, is a goal.
>There has to be something to fight for to make dueling
>meaningful; it doesn't have to be a tremendously significant reward,
>like the Rose Bride and all she brings with her, but there ought to be
>something. The Institute Duelists haven't quite worked that
>part out yet, and so they're somewhat lacking in direction so far.

doughnuts. I am convinced that it involves donuts..

"Congratulations.. you have won the Tournament. The Rose Danish is yours"

"YUMMY!"

>doughnuts. I am convinced that it involves donuts..
>
>"Congratulations.. you have won the Tournament. The Rose Danish is
>yours"
>
>"YUMMY!"

As someone who writes a donut-related joke coming from my main character in every single one of the stories he's been in - to the point that his lady-love has commented on her being a bit WORRIED about the entire donut thing - I must protest this sham of a donut reference.

Danish are not donuts.

</snarkiness>

--
Geoff Depew - Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Malakite of Lightning and Angel of Tech Support Professionals
(They won't give me LARTs, they say that's restricted to Michael.)