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Subject: "Zelda and Zelda By-Products"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
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Gryphonadmin
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Mar-30-17, 08:27 PM (EDT)
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"Zelda and Zelda By-Products"
 
   So, I think this has probably come up before, but: I've never played a Legend of Zelda game. There's no particular reason for this, I don't have anything against the franchise, I just haven't. (One contributing factor is that I haven't had any Nintendo hardware since... what, the 64, I think.) The adaptation of the source setting that exists in the UF universe is almost entirely Marty Rose's work.

So here's the thing. I've been watching some online videos of Breath of the Wild gameplay, and it looks interesting (albeit not "pay whatever scalpers are charging for a Switch" interesting), but it raises certain questions in my mind. Questions that someone around here can probably answer.

Questions like: do these games all happen in a shared continuity, or alternate versions of the same setting? Or in other words, is this Link's life, eternally and forevermore, or are we seeing a different version of him in each game? Because I assume the storylines are broadly similar from game to game, and if what I've seen of the Breath of the Wild story so far is anything to go by, the poor bastard could use a vacation. Even Commander Shepard only got run off her feet to save the universe three times, and there have been, what, 250 Legend of Zelda games?

And: Is this "Blood Moon" thing a recurring mechanic in the series? I ask about that one mainly because something very similar is the world's most annoying Minecraft mod, and it would make a lot more sense retroactively if it turned out to be a Legend of Zelda reference.

(Also, why is Zelda not the main character if she's in the title?)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products BeardedFerret Mar-30-17 1
  RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products zwol Mar-31-17 2
     RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products SmkViper Mar-31-17 4
         RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products zwol Mar-31-17 7
         RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products Matrix Dragon Mar-31-17 8
  RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products Matrix Dragon Mar-31-17 3
     RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products Peter Eng Mar-31-17 5
         RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products rwpikul Mar-31-17 10
     RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products Gryphonadmin Mar-31-17 6
         RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products iMek Mar-31-17 9
         RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products Wiregeek Mar-31-17 13
  RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products Mercutio Mar-31-17 11
     RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products Gryphonadmin Mar-31-17 12
         RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products Mercutio Mar-31-17 14
  RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products Arashi Apr-01-17 15
  RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products Kendra Kirai Apr-02-17 16
     RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products Trscroggs Apr-03-17 17
     RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products Kendra Kirai May-01-17 18
  RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products Bushido May-07-17 19

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BeardedFerret
Member since Apr-21-08
509 posts
Mar-30-17, 09:00 PM (EDT)
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1. "RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products"
In response to message #0
 
   Timelines and continuity are not a strong point for the Zelda series, which is a crying shame.

Basically Ocarina of Time on N64 screwed things up by having Link violate the Temporal Prime Directive at the end of the game, creating a split timeline. This new game handles it by pretty much flatly refusing to place itself in any of the potential post-OoT timelines, and by also setting itself at least 10,000 years after any previous game.

Link-wise, most Links are supposed to be reincarnations of the same guy, but that's never really explored as a plot point. Zelda is arguably a more important and better explored character than Link in Breath of the Wild, too, but you need to find a lot of memories around the world to discover this.


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zwol
Member since Feb-24-12
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Mar-31-17, 09:42 AM (EDT)
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2. "RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products"
In response to message #0
 
   The explanation I like best is that Link is a composite folk hero, like Hercules or Sun Wukong. There are a lot of stories about him, they all exist in multiple versions, and each game is a retelling of one version of one story. Maybe the stories have some truth at their core but it seems very unlikely that one person did all of the deeds that are attributed to him.

(Also, yeah, I don't understand why they refuse to do even one game where Zelda is the protagonist.)


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SmkViper
Member since Sep-11-07
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Mar-31-17, 11:20 AM (EDT)
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4. "RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products"
In response to message #2
 
   >(Also, yeah, I don't understand why they refuse to do even one game
>where Zelda is the protagonist.)

Wasn't there a Zelda Dynasty Warriors spinoff where you could play as Zelda (and several other secondary characters from the series)?

Granted, that's not really the same as saying she was the 'protagonist' - but still.

--SmkViper


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zwol
Member since Feb-24-12
194 posts
Mar-31-17, 03:53 PM (EDT)
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7. "RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products"
In response to message #4
 
   > Wasn't there a Zelda Dynasty Warriors spinoff where you could play as Zelda

Man, I can't keep track of alla these spinoffs, I haven't even played most of the mainline.


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Matrix Dragon
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Mar-31-17, 09:47 PM (EDT)
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8. "RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products"
In response to message #4
 
   LAST EDITED ON Mar-31-17 AT 09:48 PM (EDT)
 
>Wasn't there a Zelda Dynasty Warriors spinoff where you could play as
>Zelda (and several other secondary characters from the series)?
>
>Granted, that's not really the same as saying she was the
>'protagonist' - but still.

Hyrule Warriors for the WiiU and 3DS. One of the best DW games out there, and can be summed up as 'Every single character from the Zelda franchise they could squeeze in'. And in that one, yeah, Link's the one with the sword, but Zelda's the one giving the orders. I like to select her for the final mission of the standard campaign, so she's the one getting to kick Ganon's head in for a change.

Matrix Dragon, J. Random Nutter


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Matrix Dragon
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Mar-31-17, 11:02 AM (EDT)
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3. "RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products"
In response to message #0
 
   There's a lot of nonsense involving alternate timelines and such, which I still think was fanon that Nintendo saw and went 'yeah, that'll work', but most of that can be ignored. Really, with Zelda games, unless it outright declares itself to be a sequel to a previous game, there's not much to worry about.

Basic details that always apply. There's an ancient evil known as Ganon, out to conquer/destroy the the world. Two people are constantly reincarnated to smack him back down. Link, the guy with the magic sword, and Zelda, the Princess, who never gets to have the main role because bullshit reasons, but at least she's not 100% damsel in distress any more. Even if it's mostly offscreen, she gets to actually do shit now.

As for the Blood Moon, that's unique to Breath of the Wild. Personally, I'm not having too many problems with it, but then, I'm weird enough that weapon durability isn''t annoying me either, so make of that what you will.

Matrix Dragon, J. Random Nutter


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Peter Eng
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Mar-31-17, 02:34 PM (EDT)
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5. "RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products"
In response to message #3
 
   >Two people are constantly
>reincarnated to smack him back down. Link, the guy with the magic
>sword, and Zelda, the Princess

Somewhere in the afterlife, there must be a bar for all the people stuck in perpetual reincarnation loops.

Peter Eng
--
Insert humorous comment here.


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rwpikul
Member since Jun-22-03
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Mar-31-17, 10:57 PM (EDT)
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10. "RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products"
In response to message #5
 
   >>Two people are constantly
>>reincarnated to smack him back down. Link, the guy with the magic
>>sword, and Zelda, the Princess
>
>Somewhere in the afterlife, there must be a bar for all the people
>stuck in perpetual reincarnation loops.

Well, there's Big Mac's bar in the Infinite Loops setting<1>. It's highly recommended if you find yourself in the Equestria loop, (doubly so if Berry Punch is 'awake' that loop, she will mix the perfect drink for you<2>).

<1> Thumbnail: The multiverse is broken and has been placed in a repeating 'safe mode'. However, maintaining stability involves having someone not being reset with everything else in each universe.

<2> Yes, even if you are a {FITB}. No, don't worry, she can even provide _that_ for you, but drink up because the glass isn't going to last much longer.

--
Chakat Firepaw - Inventor & Scientist (Mad)


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Gryphonadmin
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Mar-31-17, 02:36 PM (EDT)
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6. "RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products"
In response to message #3
 
   LAST EDITED ON Mar-31-17 AT 02:37 PM (EDT)
 
>at least she's not 100% damsel in distress any more.

"The cutesy piano music just played, as if to say 'Link! Link, you're not supposed to be up there! We haven't finished that part of the map yet. It'll be available in a future DLC! Now stop fucking around and come and rescue me, Link!'"
- Sips on the limitations of the open world

>As for the Blood Moon, that's unique to Breath of the Wild.

Huh, weird. It bears such a striking resemblance to the thing that happens in the Minecraft mod I've forgotten the name of that some earlier connection seemed perfectly logical. Maybe they're both references to a common ancestor I'm not familiar with...

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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iMek
Member since Mar-28-17
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Mar-31-17, 10:19 PM (EDT)
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9. "RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products"
In response to message #6
 
   I think they're both just focussed on the 'bad moon' concept. Not sure if there is a true mythological "Blood Moon" cursor. Random Things' Bloodmoon is damn annoying, though admittedly the Age of Ascension stuff can be far worse in modded Minecraft.

Though admittedly not unlike a certain Kingston Trio ditty, it isn't nature but what our fellow man does that gets me to vote worst MC mod. Gregtech, I'm looking at you.


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Wiregeek
Member since Mar-13-14
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Mar-31-17, 11:28 PM (EDT)
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13. "RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products"
In response to message #6
 
   Majora's Mask is largely based around preventing the moon from destroying ear- err, 'Termina'


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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
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Mar-31-17, 11:16 PM (EDT)
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11. "RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products"
In response to message #0
 
   >Questions like: do these games all happen in a shared continuity, or
>alternate versions of the same setting? Or in other words, is this
>Link's life, eternally and forevermore, or are we seeing a different
>version of him in each game?

Okay, this is going to take a bit.

In the beginning, there was The Legend of Zelda. Even if you've never played it, as a child of the eighties (kind of, sort of) you'll be familiar with it to a certain extent; "It's dangerous to go alone!" and "Well excuuuuuse me, Princess." (Although that's not the game, that's the cartoon.) Like many NES games, the story doesn't make a lick of a sense without the instruction manual.

Then there was Zelda II: The Adventure of Link. This is a direct sequel to the first one; you're playing the same guy, the same Link.

Then you had The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past. (Still referred to as Zelda III by some; it was marketed that way for a bit.) This was the first and only Zelda on the SNES, and also the first one where you were, definitively, playing a different Link than in the first two games. It had a lot more lore than the previous two, and contains a lot of bedrock series concepts that are now baked into the franchises DNA. The Sword of Evil's Bane, the Master Sword? Comes from this game. Kakariko Village? This game. Zoras, the Hookshot, the ocarina, the Dark World, Zelda's default princess dress and color scheme (this is the first game she's actually IN in a meaningful way) the nature of the Triforce as a sort of combination of monkey's paw and apotheosis engine... all of that bedrock was laid down here.

This is in the way of initial context.

After that was the Game Boy release Link's Awakening (another different Link!) and then, on the N64, Ocarina of Time.

Ocarina is the Big Dog of the Zelda series; it is the one most often cited as the best of the series, and is competitive in the ranks of "best console games of all time." It also introduces the concept of the Hero of Time, sort of the ur-Link legend that all other Links are part of. It was followed by a sequel, Majora's Mask, which is sort of the "high-concept" entry in the Zelda franchise; it's a Groundhog Day scenario. The same Link is in both Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask.

This was followed by a couple more Game Boy releases, Oracle of Seasons and Oracle of Ages, then The Wind Waker on the Gamecube (if you've seen cel-shaded, cartoony Link? That's probably Wind Waker) and Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword, both on the Wii.

All of these Links? Completely different Links from each other.

The history lesson has a point. Bear with me.

By this point, it had become abundantly clear that Nintendo wasn't really operating in any kind of properly constructed shared continuity, barring the games that were direct sequels to each other with the same people in them. However, a sort of... ad hoc mythology had grown around the games, developed by the fanbase and was made explicit eventually:

In the land of Hyrule, "Link" and "Zelda" are traditional names among the populace and in the royal family. Most Link's are just Links, and most Zelda's are just Zeldas. Sometimes, tho, one of the Links is the legendary hero, the bearer of the Master Sword and (sometimes) the Triforce of Courage, the Hero of Time. Conversely, there's only the one Ganon, who must be defeated on the regular.

The game designers also couldn't help but periodically throw little nods and implications in. Wind Waker was famous for this; "oh, no, this isn't actually future of the Hyrule you saw in Ocarina of Time. Wink wink. Nudge nudge. this is totally the future of the hyrule you saw in ocarina of time" That sort of thing. But for the most part everything was sort of separate from each other except for vaguely stated and implied connections. Think more "the Mad Max movies" and less "the Marvel Cinematic Universe."

Then they kinda fucked up. They tried to tie it all together.

In 2011, to comemorate the franchise's 25th anniversary, the Hyrule Historia was published. I have it. I believe Phil does as well. Gorgeous book. Full of all kinds of production trivia, art, and information.

It also tries to tie every single Zelda game released internationally in a single, cohesive continuity, and OH BOY, it is RIDICULOUS. They have to write in a temporal fuckup in Ocarina that splits the timeline into three separate and distinct pieces... and it still doesn't really work! It's like watching someone try and reconcile comic books from the 60s and comic books from the aughts into a single unified continuity; sure, it can be done. But you end up with Frankenstein's monster and everyone just has to kind of agree to pretend they don't notice the stitches and bolts.

So basically, the answer to your question:

>Questions like: do these games all happen in a shared continuity, or
>alternate versions of the same setting?

Is "both." It's a shared continuity AND alternate versions of the same setting! At the same time! Except for when it's only one of those things because you're comparing two games in the same timeline.

There's a bunch more lore I'm leaving out here, about the Triforce and the Goddesses Nayru, Din, and Farore. (I think you might have managed to accidentally reference one of them in one of the Hyerull stories without any input from Marty, an impressive feat.) But you didn't ask about that, so.

>(Also, why is Zelda not the main character if she's in the title?)

I dunno, Ben. Why is Undocumented Features still called that when you left the weird computer programming conceit underpinning the series cosmology behind like two decades ago? :)

More seriously, Zelda is actually long overdue to headline. Even Princess Peach has headlined a game! But Zelda, no dice.

-Merc
Keep Rat


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Gryphonadmin
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Mar-31-17, 11:21 PM (EDT)
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12. "RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products"
In response to message #11
 
   >>(Also, why is Zelda not the main character if she's in the title?)
>
>I dunno, Ben. Why is Undocumented Features still called that
>when you left the weird computer programming conceit underpinning the
>series cosmology behind like two decades ago? :)

At least it was about undocumented features once. To hear you tell it, The Legend of Zelda has never been about Zelda.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
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Mar-31-17, 11:39 PM (EDT)
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14. "RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products"
In response to message #12
 
   >>>(Also, why is Zelda not the main character if she's in the title?)
>>
>>I dunno, Ben. Why is Undocumented Features still called that
>>when you left the weird computer programming conceit underpinning the
>>series cosmology behind like two decades ago? :)
>
>At least it was about undocumented features once. To hear you
>tell it, The Legend of Zelda has never been about Zelda.

It's a fair cop. They're only about her in the sense that in nearly every game you have to rescue her, although in some games she just straight doesn't appear, making the name completely ridiculous except as branding.

The title isn't entirely inaccurate, I suppose; The Treasure of the Sierra Madre isn't really about the Sierra Madre, is it? And the first game really was about fulfilling the legend surrounding a princess named Zelda.

-Merc
Keep Rat


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Arashi
Member since Mar-12-10
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Apr-01-17, 01:21 AM (EDT)
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15. "RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products"
In response to message #0
 
   >Questions like: do these games all happen in a shared continuity, or
>alternate versions of the same setting? Or in other words, is this
>Link's life, eternally and forevermore, or are we seeing a different
>version of him in each game? Because I assume the storylines are
>broadly similar from game to game, and if what I've seen of the
>Breath of the Wild story so far is anything to go by, the poor
>bastard could use a vacation. Even Commander Shepard only got run off
>her feet to save the universe three times, and there have been, what,
>250 Legend of Zelda games?

I more or less use this to cover the timelines for the series. Granted it only goes up to 2011 so recent games are not covered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHCbp5LTgbU

When in Danger, or in Doubt.
Run in circles, scream and shout.


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Kendra Kirai
Member since May-22-16
82 posts
Apr-02-17, 03:59 PM (EDT)
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16. "RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products"
In response to message #0
 
   Others have gone into it in general, but for the more detail oriented, there's a few things that haven't been brought up.

First of all, there HAVE been two games headlining Zelda herself. They were on the Philips CD-i and Nintendo's only contributions were the names and basic designs of the characters and are as downright abhorrent as that pedigree suggests.

Second, there WAS another Zelda game on the SNES/Super famicom, the Satellaview's "BS Legend of Zelda". It was Japan only, it was released in episodes, was built on Link to the Past's code, and used actual voiced dialogue and orchestral music streamed live over the Satellaview. The only way to play this now is emulated, and you can't get the audio the same way, but it WAS recorded and archived by players. In it, you don't play as Link, but as, ostensibly, yourself, transported to Hyrule some time after the events of Link to The Past.

Thirdly, there are many games not mentioned in the above lists, including Minish Cap, Four Swords Adventures, Phantom Hourglass, Spirit Tracks, and.....Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland.

The less said about that game, the better, perhaps.

Ad for the timeline, the timeline knot in question that occurs in Ocarina of Time is thus;

1: Link (The Hero of Time) defeats Ganondorf.
2: Link fails, Ganondorf takes over the world
3: Link fails to appear at all.

Case 1 is pretty self explanatory. That's the Good Ending, the one you actually see when you play the game.
Case 2 is unseen, since you're taken to a simple game over screen when you die, but ostensibly, it later takes an army to defeat Ganondorf, and the world is damaged greatly by the long, destructive conflict.
Case 3 brings us to the Wind Waker timeline, where since The Hero Of Time never appeared at all, the Goddesses stepped in personally and flooded the world, sealing the Triforce and Ganon away forever (except not, because then there wouldn't be a game)

Besides that, The Legend of Zelda is, to apparently borrow a phrase from Hideki Anno, a story that repeats. In Skyward Sword, which is the earliest canonical game so far, it's revealed that the three - Link, Zelda, and Ganon, are cursed (By the being that would later become Ganon) to reincarnate and do battle again and again, because he hates Link and Zelda THAT MUCH.

Incidentally, I've long considered the reason Ganon goes after Zelda first to be because SHE is the more dangerous. Link/the Hero of Time/The Wielder of thr Triforce of Courage/Steve may be the one who deals the final blow, but Zelda is the one who can STOP him. She's invariably a wise and just ruler, bearer of the Triforce of Wisdom, and often a powerful Mage. She is usually the one who ends up providing Link with the Light Arrows, the only means to properly weaken and defeat Ganon.

Ganon never wants Zelda as a wife, or anything. He doesn't imprison her for kicks, like Bowser. He does so because to leave her roaming free would mean his defeat. He does it because he fears her power.

He isn't remotely afraid of this stupid punk in a green dress, even if he DOES wield one of the only things in the world that can actually kill him. Multiple times in the franchise, he simply *bats you aside* like the insignificant speck you are, yet he is ALWAYS careful to incapacitate Zelda, before he does ANYTHING of real note.

I think it's the Legend of Zelda because SHE is the important one. Link is, ultimately, just the tool that's needed at the time.


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Trscroggs
Member since Apr-26-16
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Apr-03-17, 08:50 AM (EDT)
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17. "RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products"
In response to message #16
 
   This is especially true in the last few games. While it is always the Master Sword that strikes the final blow, for the last few games the only way to set Ganon up to strike that blow has been with Arrows of Light. And the only way to get those arrows is directly from Zelda.

In Wind Waker you don't even get the arrows, Zelda is on the battlefield shooting them. It's your job in that battle to distract Ganon so Zelda can set him up for you.

With a few exceptions, Link is always the unlikely hero. He comes from essentially nothing, he's just got the spunk, stubbornness, and reincarnating soul, that makes him keep holding on when almost everyone else just gives up.

Zelda, on the other hand, is always a big name, even when she's not a Princess (on paper) she's a mover and shaker. People have heard of her and the fact that she has some kind of power is generally known. In at least a couple of cases she's known of to at least a few people in entirely separate dimensions.


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Kendra Kirai
Member since May-22-16
82 posts
May-01-17, 06:17 PM (EDT)
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18. "RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products"
In response to message #16
 
   Not to necro a topic, but this video was just posted today and goes into some depth on BS The Legend of Zelda, if anyone is interested.

http://youtu.be/mqCJOBwBy_g


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Bushido
Member since Apr-8-10
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May-07-17, 02:09 AM (EDT)
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19. "RE: Zelda and Zelda By-Products"
In response to message #0
 
   Normally this is a topic that I would wax poetic over, as a massive fan of the series, but everyone else has fairly thoroughly covered the answers to Gryphon's questions. I actually owe a friendship that has lasted over 20 years to the series. We were introduced because a mutual acquaintance knew that I had beaten a boss that he was stuck on (Link's Awakening, second dungeon).

Gryphon, if curiosity gets the best of you, a used Wii U console and the Wii U version of the game are a cheaper alternative to the Switch. Personally I managed to snag a pre-order of the Switch and Zelda: BotW for it at a local game shop, so I didn't have to jump through any major hoops to get it.

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Wedge Defense Force General Order 12: "Try to avoid freaking the mundanes."


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