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Gryphonadmin
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Jan-16-17, 03:49 PM (EST)
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"Gun of the Week: M1911A1"
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jan-16-17 AT 03:53 PM (EST)
 
Today's Gun of the Week is, by any measurement I can think of offhand, John Browning's most popular design, and certainly his most famous, although I would argue that it isn't necessarily his best. It is of course the Pistol, Caliber .45, Automatic, M1911A1, which I am required by tribal custom to describe at this point in the review as "venerable".

In its original form, the handgun we now know as the M1911A1 was adopted by the United States Army as the Model of 1911 (no prizes for guessing what year) after a trial and selection process almost as absurdly drawn-out as the one that resulted in the M1 rifle. We've heard bits and pieces about these trials in other Gun of the Week entries, and they're a complicated and arcane enough subject that we don't need to go into exhaustive detail here, but here's a rough breakdown:

Essentially, what happened was that the Army had some problems with their .38-caliber revolvers in the Philippines (which the US took over, without what one might call widespread popular support among the local inhabitants, after the Spanish-American War in 1898). Specifically, Army personnel discovered to their consternation that said revolvers sort of didn't kill people very well, which is a pretty significant drawback in a military weapon.

Faced with this problem, the Army started reissuing the old single-action Model 1873 revolvers the .38s had replaced in 1892, figuring that if they were clunky and heavy and slow to reload, at least they were .45s and that had to help, right? They also started buying more modern, double-action .45 revolvers from Colt and Smith & Wesson. In the meantime, in 1904 they assigned an infantry officer with the excellent name John Tagliaferro Thompson (later to invent the Thompson submachine gun) and a medical officer called Louis LaGarde to investigate the alternatives available and figure out a less ad-hoc way forward.

Thompson and LaGarde gathered up a variety of handguns in various popular calibers, retired to a slaughterhouse in Chicago, and shot a lot of animals, then reported back that caliber .45 was indeed the way to go. They further noted that rapid fire was also really important, so whatever replaced the service revolver should be a self-loading firearm. These recommendations then formed the basis for the specification the Army Ordnance Bureau used to solicit bids for the new sidearm.

In latter days, there's been a lot of controversy about the Thompson-LaGarde tests, with critics pointing out that they were wildly unscientific, and that Thompson and LaGarde would have been predisposed to recommend what the Army had already gone back to using anyway. The root of the disagreement has to do with the old argument about which has more "stopping power", a moderately-sized bullet traveling at high speed or a big heavy bullet moving more slowly (with the understanding that a heavy bullet traveling fast makes too many demands on the weapon and the shooter to be workable in a general-issue service situation, i.e., why everyday beat cops don't carry .44 Magnums). Among promoters of handgun cartridges for service, the latter school of thought is observed by aficionados of the .45; the former, by devotees of the 9mm Parabellum.

The "velocity" school is largely in ascendance nowadays, but not everyone is convinced, and anyway the argument is not really resolvable. "Stopping power" is such a subjective concept, and there are so many variables in real-world conditions, that there are always going to be examples enough to convince somebody of either interpretation. Besides, for our purposes today it's not relevant. 110 years ago, the Army wanted a .45 semiautomatic, so that's what the people who wanted the contract developed.

There were two rounds of tests; after the first, the Savage Arms Company, Colt's Manufacturing Company, and Deutsche Waffen- und Munitionsfabrik were invited to refine their designs and come back for a second round. DWM declined, as by then they had a contract to provide the (much, much larger) German military with their pistol in 9mm, and they didn't think it would be worth the expense and hassle of setting up a second production line in .45 just for the potential of a relatively puny deal with the American army. (Would have been interesting if they'd stayed in and won, since the US would be at war with Germany within a decade...) Savage's revised entry didn't do so well in the second round of tests, so the one submitted by Colt was the winner, and accordingly adopted in the year indicated by its ordnance model number. (The Navy and Marine Corps would follow in 1913.)

After field experience in World War I, the Army made a few changes, most of them ergonomic, and in 1924 standardized the altered version as the Model 1911-A1. A little bit later, when the nomenclature system was streamlined somewhat, this got compressed to M1911A1, which is how the pistol has been popularly known ever since. Although it was submitted by Colt and the initial production runs were made by that company, the military version (as was common practice at the time) was not branded, and during World War II more were actually made by Remington than Colt.

The M1911A1 remained the standard-issue sidearm for the United States armed forces until 1986, when it was replaced in most uses by the M9 (which is essentially, as previously discussed, the Beretta Model 92FS). Certain Special Forces operators, and others of a lofty enough status in the military pecking order that they can vary their equipment based on preference, have stuck with it, or at least with the .45 ACP cartridge, right down to the present day. However, it's important to note that the military version wasn't produced straight through to 1986. So many were churned out during World War II that the Army never needed to buy brand new ones again after 1945.

Meanwhile, on the civilian side of the market, Colt did keep making them, and making them, and making them, and indeed still makes them. In fact, pretty much everybody in the handgun business seems to make an M1911A1 clone nowadays. Since the patents lapsed long, long ago, there's nothing to stop them, and as they remain one of the most popular, best-selling handguns of all time, why not? Remington makes a 1911; Smith & Wesson makes a 1911; even Walther makes a 1911 these days.

The one I have recently bought, pictured above, was made by a company called Springfield Armory. I think I've mentioned this before, but it bears repeating that this is not the government arsenal in Springfield, Massachusetts, where my M1 rifle was made. Despite the jaunty "Since 1794" in their logo, they have nothing to do with said arsenal; they only started using the name in the 1970s, after the "real" Springfield Armory was closed in 1968. As far as I am aware, 1911s were never made there.

Still, they make a good product. This particular one is their "Milspec" model, so called because it hews as closely as possible to the original Model 1911-A1 specification, without many of the modern fiddly bits that are available. (Seriously, these things are like the Toyota Corolla of handguns, you can rice a 1911 up until it's almost unrecognizable.) It has the original Parkerized finish and internals; they've even, as you see above, replicated the military-style slide markings (which, oddly, were never changed, even though the designation was streamlined well before production ended). About the only major outward difference is those fancy grip panels with the Springfield logo on them. (The smooth diamonds around the screw holes there are slightly anachronistic, since they were omitted from the original grips as part of the "A1" pattern change.)

I've been meaning to get myself a Springfield 1911 for, literally, decades at this point. Readers of Neon Exodus Evangelion may recall that DJ Croft routinely carries a Springfield V10, which was a compact, compensated model they used to make back in the '90s (seems to be out of production now, alas). I'd say the Milspec here has probably been on my radar for at least 25 years, and now I've finally got round to it.

Over on the righthand side, the resemblance is less pronounced, since that's the side they reserved for all of the required modern markings.

In these side views, you can see the two principal changes made for the "A1" version. One, the extended beavertail on the grip safety, is harder to notice when looking at an A1 by itself, since it's only larger in relation to the version on the original model. (This was an attempt to cut down on the 1911's habit of biting its operator, and mostly works if you hold it right.) The other, those cutouts in the frame behind the trigger, is easier to spot. That just makes it easier and more comfortable to get your finger around there if you have smaller hands.

That said, this is really not a gun for smaller hands. It's big and heavy, and it always cracked me up when Mike Hammer would haul one out of a shoulder holster on the old TV show starring Stacy Keach. There's no way a man could carry around a full-sized M1911A1 in a shoulder holster without looking like he had shoplifted a VCR.

(If you watched detective shows in the '80s, you will also have seen one of these in the opening credits of every episode of Magnum, PI, where he's shown loading his. Detectives who had being a veteran in their backstories, like Hammer and Magnum, virtually always had a 1911, often identified as one they had "forgotten" to return when they mustered out of the service. I kind of doubt the Army was really that lackadaisical about recovering hardware, but hey, maybe.)

I decided not to break mine down and get pictures of its inner workings, because—strangely for a military firearm—the 1911 is a pretty serious pain to take apart. Remember the crazy stuff I had to do to get my Colt 1903 Pocket Hammerless apart? Well, Browning hadn't entirely learned his lesson about field stripping by the time he got to what became the 1911. You have to do this strange thing where you hold the slide partway back (to the helpfully provided indicator arrow engraved on the side), hold down a really stiff spring-loaded button at the front of the recoil spring guide rod, and then unscrew the bushing around the front of the barrel, all in such a way that it and the spring guide don't go hurtling off across the room when the bushing disengages. It probably works great if you have a third hand growing out of your chest to hold everything steady, but for a normal human being it is a complete ballache.

Fortunately, someone else on the Internet already did so, and with exactly the same make and model as the one I have, so thanks to our friends at Wikimedia, I can show you what's in there, anyway.

(They used a better blanket than I did for this; mine creates this weird optical illusion of film grain.)

Anyway, here it is. You can see the recoil spring with its front and rear guides (the one at the front has the button you have to press in the aforementioned disassembly, which normally sticks out of the front of the slide just below the muzzzle) and the barrel bushing. Apart from that, it looks remarkably similar to the inside of a Browning Hi-Power, except that the link on the underside of the barrel is hinged rather than angled. (This is probably why the barrel is the first thing to be replaced by anyone trying to "accurize" a 1911, to try and tighten up that relationship between the barrel and the frame.) He just hadn't worked out yet that you can run the whole disassembly procedure off of the retaining pin, without having to screw around with the recoil spring or a barrel bushing. That would come. It would be interesting to know whether the much simpler disassembly of the Hi-Power represents Browning himself refining this design, or is one of the contributions made by Dieudonné Saive.

Drawbacks aside, and it certainly has them—the weight, the relatively low magazine capacity, the complicated takedown, the somewhat iffy ergo, including the almost aggressive right-handedness—the old hogleg must be doing something right. Take apart most full-size, full-power, short-recoil semiautomatics designed decades-to-a-full-century later and you'll still find inner workings that look remarkably like that. For most manufacturers, "The Browning System" is still where it's at for anything too hefty to work as a straight blowback action. And you will still find plenty of old soldiers (and armchair soldiers, and other assorted wannabes) who bitch that they should'a never retired the old 1911 and gone with that Eye-talian junk.

(Note that I am being facetious and this does not reflect my opinion. I have not handled an M9, but I really like the two US-made Berettas I do have. They do good work over in Accokeek.)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1 MoonEyes Jan-16-17 1
  Speaking of Colt Gryphonadmin Jan-17-17 2
     RE: Speaking of Colt StClair Jan-17-17 3
  RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1 Mercutio Jan-18-17 4
     RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1 Gryphonadmin Jan-18-17 5
  RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1 Wiregeek Jan-18-17 6
     RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1 Gryphonadmin Jan-18-17 7
         RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1 Peter Eng Jan-18-17 8
         RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1 Wiregeek Jan-20-17 9
         RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1 Gryphonadmin Feb-23-20 24
     RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1 MoonEyes Jan-20-17 10
         RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1 Wiregeek Mar-30-17 18
  RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1 eriktown Jan-25-17 11
     RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1 Gryphonadmin Jan-25-17 12
         RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1 Proginoskes Jan-26-17 13
         RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1 Gryphonadmin Jan-26-17 14
             RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1 eriktown Jan-26-17 15
         RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1 eriktown Jan-26-17 16
         RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1 Gryphonadmin May-02-17 23
  RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1 Gryphonadmin Mar-28-17 17
     RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1 MoonEyes Mar-30-17 19
         RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1 ebony14 Mar-30-17 20
             RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1 drakensis Mar-31-17 21
                 RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1 Nathan Mar-31-17 22

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MoonEyes
Member since Jun-29-03
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Jan-16-17, 05:42 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1"
In response to message #0
 
   You know, I had been wondering if you'd get to, and how you would present, a M1911A1, or, well, clone thereof.

Very interesting, and, honestly, amusing.

...!
Gott's Leetle Feesh in Trousers!


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Gryphonadmin
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Jan-17-17, 07:33 PM (EST)
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2. "Speaking of Colt"
In response to message #0
 
   I mentioned that they still make a 1911 range. One of them has the most disappointing name I've seen on a product in some time. It's called the Colt Rail Gun, but sadly, all that means is that it's got a thing on it you can attach accessories to.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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StClair
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Jan-17-17, 11:41 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: Speaking of Colt"
In response to message #2
 
   "... but Sam Colt (and Carl Gauss) made 'em equal."


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Mercutio
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Jan-18-17, 00:37 AM (EST)
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4. "RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1"
In response to message #0
 
   >In latter days, there's been a lot of controversy about the
>Thompson-LaGarde tests, with critics pointing out that they were
>wildly unscientific,

To be fair; that's the same criticism levied at Mythbusters. (Well, more specifically that they lack rigor, but still.)

> Certain Special Forces operators, and others of a lofty enough
>status in the military pecking order that they can vary their
>equipment based on preference, have stuck with it, or at least with
>the .45 ACP cartridge, right down to the present day.

I believe this is no longer the case; if I recall correctly, the Marine Raiders were the last Special Forces guys still carrying the M1911A1, and they discontinued that last year. There are no doubt still a few guys with it in their kit, but it is no longer "official."

-Merc
Keep Rat


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Gryphonadmin
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Jan-18-17, 00:58 AM (EST)
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5. "RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1"
In response to message #4
 
   >>In latter days, there's been a lot of controversy about the
>>Thompson-LaGarde tests, with critics pointing out that they were
>>wildly unscientific,
>
>To be fair; that's the same criticism levied at Mythbusters. (Well,
>more specifically that they lack rigor, but still.)

Mythbusters didn't set 80+ years' worth of policy for the U.S. armed forces, though. I'm just saying.

>> Certain Special Forces operators, and others of a lofty enough
>>status in the military pecking order that they can vary their
>>equipment based on preference, have stuck with it, or at least with
>>the .45 ACP cartridge, right down to the present day.
>
>I believe this is no longer the case; if I recall correctly, the
>Marine Raiders were the last Special Forces guys still carrying the
>M1911A1, and they discontinued that last year. There are no doubt
>still a few guys with it in their kit, but it is no longer "official."

Oh, did they, finally? The last guy who had one must've retired. :) I think SOC is still using the H&K Mk 23, though, so "or at least the .45 ACP cartridge" still stands, for the moment. (Oddly, a quick snout around Google turns up a lot of reports that H&K announced they were discontinuing the Mk 23 in 2010 or so, but then evidently didn't? I dunno. Modern-day Defense Department firearms procurement is weird. How many times now have they said they were absolutely going to replace the M16 and/or M9 and then just didn't bother? That was a rhetorical question. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Wiregeek
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Jan-18-17, 01:27 AM (EST)
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6. "RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1"
In response to message #0
 
   The 'stopping power' argument is likely to always be with us, like entropy. That being snarked at, the 1911 (Mine's by Kimber!) is almost the archetypical 'modern gun' for a lot of people - myself included.

Being of a mind and budget to allow myself to possess guns in a number of exciting and varied calibers, I... still don't have a 9mm. But the .45ACP compares favorably to anything I routinely pull out of the gun safe with a '3' in the beginning of the dinglehoob, and is a joy and a pleasure to shoot.

Until it gets below 20 farenheits or so and everything freezes together, and you can't shoot more than one round without manually racking the slide.

But that's OK, that's why Smith & Wesson make revolvers in such fun sizes as .460..


Gryph, if you're ever Anchorage way, I'd love to go out with you and put some ammo downrange - maybe your gun of the week could be something truly absurd then.


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Gryphonadmin
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Jan-18-17, 02:00 AM (EST)
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7. "RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1"
In response to message #6
 
   >Being of a mind and budget to allow myself to possess guns in a number
>of exciting and varied calibers, I... still don't have a 9mm. But
>the .45ACP compares favorably to anything I routinely pull out of the
>gun safe with a '3' in the beginning of the dinglehoob, and is a joy
>and a pleasure to shoot.

Oh yeah, I should have mentioned in the article that, in my entirely subjective opinion, one thing the "big slow bullet" school of thought has going for it is the user experience. I mean to say, .45 ACP has quite a bit of recoil? But it's not as bitchy about it as some much weaker cartridges, like, say, .380 Auto or 9mm Makarov. It doesn't slap your hand around and demand your keys. The fact that big-slow-bullet cartridges tend to go in big heavy guns is, I'm sure, a significant part of that, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess it probably also has something to do with the lower velocity. You get the recoil energy delivered over a very slightly less infinitesimal slice of time, or something. I'm just speculating about the science behind it, but it's a thing I've noticed.

>Until it gets below 20 farenheits or so and everything freezes
>together, and you can't shoot more than one round without manually
>racking the slide.

Ha, oh man. I've probably told this story before, but I'm-a tell it again anyway because you just reminded me of it, and it's even vaguely germane to the original thread topic. Some time back, probably 10-15 years ago now, my cousin Mike the Marine visited the old country over Christmastime, which meant he and I were both at my grandparents' place for Christmas Day that year. I hadn't seen him in probably as long again, since he was just a little kid, and at the time I think he was just in the process of converting into an officer, so he'd been in the Marines for some time by then.

(He went from Force Recon to flying AC-130s just in the nick of "getting too old for that [Recon] shit," which I'm told is a good career path if you can swing it. Although it has to be said his mother didn't appreciate the two or three extra tours in Bad Places the decision bought him. I think he's retired now; he's four or five years younger than me and went in right out of high school, so if he did his 20 straight he'd be just about there. I think that's how it works? Don't quote me.)

Anyway, he had a gun with him that he'd recently bought, one of those fancy riced-up 1911s with the long slide and all the bits and bobs to make it go faster shoot straighter. Probably cost him more than the car I was driving at the time cost me. After dinner he allowed as he'd like to go outside and do some shooting, which at the time, my grandparents lived in a place where you could do that. So Mike and I and Gramp went outside and set some old bottles and cans up on the snowbank beside the garage, in front of the hill at the back of their yard, and then we spent a couple of hours and a slightly stupid amount of .45 ammunition blowing them up. And a fine time was had by all. (I mock souped-up 1911s, but that was a really nice gun. :)

Fast-forward to springtime, and my grandmother decided the time had come to pot up and arrange all the flowers and potted plants and stuff she kept on their porch in the warmer months. Leonard, she said to my grandfather, go and get my plant pots from where you put them away last fall. Only at that point did my grandfather remember that he'd stacked said plant pots out by the garage, in front of the hill at the back of their yard.

Where they got buried in snow, and then Cousin Mike and I, not knowing they were there, shot them all to shit with his fancy new gun at Christmas.

Gram was... not best pleased with the lot of us. (But Mike was back in $BAD_PLACE by then, so he didn't get yelled at. :)

>Gryph, if you're ever Anchorage way, I'd love to go out with you and
>put some ammo downrange - maybe your gun of the week could be
>something truly absurd then.

Sounds like good times. I don't know as I'm ever going to find myself in Alaska (although it's on my list of places I'd like to hit sometime, it's not every day you hear about a state with worse winters than Maine's :), but if I do, I will certainly keep that in mind. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Peter Eng
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Jan-18-17, 05:48 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1"
In response to message #7
 
   >
>Gram was... not best pleased with the lot of us.
>

I'd imagine your grandfather got the worst of it. If I'm right, he probably would have admitted at the time that he'd earned all the yelling.

Peter Eng
--
New note for rules of firearm safety: Never store anything in the firing range.


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Wiregeek
Member since Mar-13-14
159 posts
Jan-20-17, 01:34 AM (EST)
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9. "RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1"
In response to message #7
 
  
>Sounds like good times. I don't know as I'm ever going to find myself
>in Alaska (although it's on my list of places I'd like to hit
>sometime, it's not every day you hear about a state with worse winters
>than Maine's :), but if I do, I will certainly keep that in mind. :)


That is a completely unfounded and baseless accusation! This winter has been great, it's only gone below fifty below a couple times...


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Gryphonadmin
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Feb-23-20, 11:01 PM (EST)
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24. "RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1"
In response to message #7
 
   LAST EDITED ON Feb-23-20 AT 11:03 PM (EST)
 
>Where they got buried in snow, and then Cousin Mike and I, not knowing
>they were there, shot them all to shit with his fancy new gun at
>Christmas.

I was digging around in a few folders of scanned photos looking for something else tonight, and randomly ran across a photo of the whole gang on flowerpot-killin' day.

From left to right, that's me, Mike, Gramp, and Mike's younger brother Al, who I'm ashamed to admit I forgot was there when we did that. (In my defense, it's been pretty rare for both Mike and Al to have the time to get back to the old country at the same time as adults.) The gun Al (also a Marine, though IIRC his thing was helicopters) has is his own, IIRC, and not the one Mike had with him.

I have no idea why my beard looks so red in this photo. It never was in real life (nowdays it's mostly just grey—way greyer than my hair has so far gone, for some reason).

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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MoonEyes
Member since Jun-29-03
931 posts
Jan-20-17, 09:12 AM (EST)
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10. "RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1"
In response to message #6
 
   >The 'stopping power' argument is likely to always be with us, like
>entropy. That being snarked at, the 1911 (Mine's by Kimber!) is
>almost the archetypical 'modern gun' for a lot of people - myself
>included.

Without wanting to get too far into it, because it is an observation only...the "1911 as the archetypical 'modern gun' thing? Is a very American thing. I can almost guarantee that the rest of the world? Doesn't see it like that, to a very very great extent.

Just making the note.
...!
Gott's Leetle Feesh in Trousers!


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Wiregeek
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Mar-30-17, 00:03 AM (EST)
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18. "RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1"
In response to message #10
 
   Note noted - and I'll freely and happily admit to my American bias.


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eriktown
Member since Jan-28-06
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Jan-25-17, 11:21 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1"
In response to message #0
 
   Speaking of MYEAR guns, the US Army picked a new sidearm last week: the M17 is a striker-fired polymer made by SIG Sauer (who are essentially an American company run by Germans these days, though with all those mergers and buyouts it gets hard to tell). The M17 is a version of what SIG sells in the civilian market as the P320. It's a pretty cool design - the whole gun is a mechanical assembly, a chassis that can be simply lifted out of the frame without the use of tools, and then put in any other frame built for that caliber. So you can buy a full-sized frame that has the 'gun' part in it, and a subcompact frame, and when you want to carry your gun, you don't have to go through all that paperwork again - just spend a minute disassembling the fullsize, popping the chassis into the subcompact frame, and reassembling it. The Army wanted this so that the same gun could be used within multiple mission parameters, and having common parts for everything cuts down on costs. The downside is that the subcompact is bulkier than most.

Sadly this is unlikely to mean that the market will be flooded with surplus M9s in the near future, as that would require an act of Congress.

And speaking of 1911s - Gryph, have you seen the Hudson H9? It's a very interesting design.


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Gryphonadmin
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Jan-25-17, 11:45 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1"
In response to message #11
 
   >So you can buy
>a full-sized frame that has the 'gun' part in it, and a subcompact
>frame, and when you want to carry your gun, you don't have to go
>through all that paperwork again - just spend a minute disassembling
>the fullsize, popping the chassis into the subcompact frame, and
>reassembling it. The Army wanted this so that the same gun could be
>used within multiple mission parameters, and having common parts for
>everything cuts down on costs.

Why does this make me kind of wince and wonder if they should've called it the M35? I mean, it sounds cool on the face of it, but then reality sets in and you start remembering that nothing which is designed to bake lasagna and polish a floor is ever going to be any good at either one, a lesson the United States armed forces seem determined never to learn.

>Sadly this is unlikely to mean that the market will be flooded with
>surplus M9s in the near future, as that would require an act of
>Congress.

Eh, I don't see why not. A mathematical majority of both houses is currently owned by the NRA.

>And speaking of 1911s - Gryph, have you seen the Hudson H9? It's a
>very interesting design.

I hadn't heard of it. (google) Oh hey, it's a Colt Manhunter. Nifty. MSRP's a little rich for my taste, but maybe it'll catch on and be a little less expensive once they make back their development costs. I hope it does, there aren't enough really interesting things on the market these days—even if their bumf does lean perhaps a little too hard on the "old and busted? new hotness" angle. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Proginoskes
Member since Dec-3-09
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Jan-26-17, 00:27 AM (EST)
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13. "RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1"
In response to message #12
 
   >Why does this make me kind of wince and wonder if they should've
>called it the M35? I mean, it sounds cool on the face of it, but then
>reality sets in and you start remembering that nothing which is
>designed to bake lasagna and polish a floor is ever going to be
>any good at either one, a lesson the United States armed forces seem
>determined never to learn.

I'm not anything near an expert, but in fairness to the US Army I feel the need to point out that (a) a significant change in role would suggest to m a change in caliber, and therefore a separate gun; and (b) have they dragged the rest of the US armed forces into their boondoggle?


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Gryphonadmin
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Jan-26-17, 00:49 AM (EST)
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14. "RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1"
In response to message #12
 
   >>And speaking of 1911s - Gryph, have you seen the Hudson H9? It's a
>>very interesting design.
>
>I hadn't heard of it.

Oh, I see Ian and Karl of InRange have done a fairly lengthy couple of videos on Hudson and the H9 within the last couple of days, as part of their minor deluge of SHOT 2017 content. I'm so far behind on my YouTube subs right now, I hadn't even noticed. I'll have to check them out.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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eriktown
Member since Jan-28-06
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Jan-26-17, 01:35 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1"
In response to message #14
 
   >>>And speaking of 1911s - Gryph, have you seen the Hudson H9? It's a
>>>very interesting design.
>>
>>I hadn't heard of it.
>
>Oh, I see Ian and Karl of InRange have done a fairly lengthy couple of
>videos on Hudson and the H9 within the last couple of days, as part of
>their minor deluge of SHOT 2017 content. I'm so far behind on my
>YouTube subs right now, I hadn't even noticed. I'll have to check
>them out.

The fact that they are really excited about it is part of why I got excited about it; I trust them a little more than the rest of the industry to say whether there's anything to the hype or not, and they seemed to think it actually did.

The first video they did will tickle your historian bone, because it goes into great detail about the process they went through designing it and both the experiences (fencing experience helped them find the right grip angle) and the prior art (in terms of previous design) they studied in order to make the thing work the way they wanted it to. The second one is all about the design of the final gun, and goes in great detail into both the design and its manufacturability, which you'll dig from an engineering perspective.

I also was kinda charmed the Hudsons themselves - they're a young veteran couple who essentially co-designed the first iteration of the product while snowed into a house in Alaska for three months, and they're obviously total geeks. And fans of Ian and Karl; apparently their videos helped the design process.


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eriktown
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Jan-26-17, 01:46 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1"
In response to message #12
 
   >Why does this make me kind of wince and wonder if they should've
>called it the M35? I mean, it sounds cool on the face of it, but then
>reality sets in and you start remembering that nothing which is
>designed to bake lasagna and polish a floor is ever going to be
>any good at either one, a lesson the United States armed forces seem
>determined never to learn.

Hee hee. Yeah. At least the Marine Corps wasn't involved in procurement and couldn't demand that it have VTOL capability.

In fairness, it *has* been on the civillian market for a couple of years, and has been pretty well-received. It does actually *shoot bullets*, which is something the F-35 literally can't do (because of software! oy vey.)

>I hadn't heard of it. (google) Oh hey, it's a
>Colt Manhunter.

I know, right? Though I feel like it's also got a little bit of an art deco lean to it that could make it work equally well as Roger Smith's carry piece in Big O.


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Gryphonadmin
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May-02-17, 02:22 AM (EST)
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23. "RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1"
In response to message #12
 
   LAST EDITED ON May-02-17 AT 02:22 AM (EDT)
 
>>And speaking of 1911s - Gryph, have you seen the Hudson H9? It's a
>>very interesting design.
>
>I hadn't heard of it. (google) Oh hey, it's a Colt Manhunter. Nifty. MSRP's a
>little rich for my taste, but maybe it'll catch on and be a little
>less expensive once they make back their development costs. I hope it
>does, there aren't enough really interesting things on the market
>these days—even if their bumf does lean perhaps a little too
>hard on the "old and busted? new hotness" angle. :)

So this past weekend was the big NRA show in Atlanta; not my cup of tea (I have Significant Reservations about the NRA as an organization and trade shows in general, so a trade show run by the NRA does not excite me), but I'm seeing reports coming out of it that Hudson Mfg announced there that the H9 will start shipping to distributors on June 26. In the interest of full disclosure, they don't seem to have updated their own web page yet, so take that for what secondhand information is worth.

... Oh, although, I think that is actually Mr. Hudson himself saying it in this video, so. There's that.

(By a peculiar coincidence, that is Corwin's birthday, because it was also Derek Bacon's, and six days after my own. I admit 1 in 365.25 isn't amazingly slim odds, but still.)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Gryphonadmin
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Mar-28-17, 01:19 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON Mar-28-17 AT 01:20 PM (EDT)
 
>the excellent name John Tagliaferro Thompson

Forgot to mention: I am informed that he pronounced his middle name "Tolliver". (It was evidently his mother's maiden name, so I guess now we know how to hijack his Twitter account if we need to.) Also, and a bit curiously, accounts differ as to whether it had a G in it.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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MoonEyes
Member since Jun-29-03
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Mar-30-17, 08:44 AM (EST)
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19. "RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1"
In response to message #17
 
   "My name is Denis...I'm going to pronounce it PARFLEU!"

...!
Stoke Mandeville, Esq & The Victorian Ballsmiths
"Nobody Want Verdigris-Covered Balls!"


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ebony14
Member since Jul-11-11
437 posts
Mar-30-17, 10:07 AM (EST)
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20. "RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1"
In response to message #19
 
   >"My name is Denis...I'm going to pronounce it PARFLEU!"
>
>...!
>Stoke Mandeville, Esq & The Victorian Ballsmiths
>"Nobody Want Verdigris-Covered Balls!"

"It's pronounced Throatwarbler Mangrove."

Ebony the Black Dragon

"Life is like an anole. Sometimes it's green. Sometimes it's brown. But it's always a small Caribbean lizard."


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drakensis
Member since Dec-20-06
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Mar-31-17, 02:46 AM (EST)
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21. "RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1"
In response to message #20
 
   By pure coincidence, on the 28th I read the parts of The Shiva Option featuring a Commodore Taliaferro, rendered by the Orion accent as Tahlivver. Another character notes that the Orions are therefore more accurate in pronouncing it than most humans, who get misled by the spelling.

D.


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Nathan
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Mar-31-17, 06:54 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: Gun of the Week: M1911A1"
In response to message #21
 
   >By pure coincidence, on the 28th I read the parts of The Shiva Option
>featuring a Commodore Taliaferro, rendered by the Orion accent as
>Tahlivver. Another character notes that the Orions are therefore more
>accurate in pronouncing it than most humans, who get misled by the
>spelling.

A terrible book, by most measures, but somehow, I love it so anyway.

If nothing else, it blows up real good.

-----
Iä! Iä! Moe fthagn!


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