Those are great. Other short, harder-to-find anime I suggest is Dragon Half and Elf Princess Rane. Both of which are wild comedy. If you're too serious for that, don't get them.

Trigun is comedic, but phases over eventually to heavier substance with comedic elements, while Bebop, well, each episode is based on a different theme, so you'll get some you like, regardless of taste. And maybe one or two you don't.

But there's really so much. If you're a fan of B movies and space operas, you'll like Galaxy Express 999 or it's recent revival in Esmerelda (sp.). If you like godzilla, well, there's always Giant Robo. Go Giant Robo! On the other hand, well-made, thoughtful anime includes, um... well, there are some. You might consider Blue Submarine 6 as thoughtful and well made. As for _odd_, there's a _lot_ of odd stuff. But for something funny with just a hint of strangeness, go with Utena.

You're best off finding someone who already has them all and borrowing them... unless you're one of the poor fellows who lives _nowhere near_ a college, virtually every college has an SF group, and virtually every SF group has at least one anime fan. And any decent anime fan will go out of their way to hook you.

-Craig
Need something to read?
http://www.wpi.edu/~perko

>Those are great. Other short, harder-to-find anime I suggest is Dragon
>Half and Elf Princess Rane. Both of which are wild comedy. If you're
>too serious for that, don't get them.

Dragon Half is from ADV - not on DVD yet. Rane is Media Blasters - I think that's on DVD now, or will be real soon. (I know I ordered it, can't recall if I got it though. I think so.)

>Trigun is comedic, but phases over eventually to heavier substance
>with comedic elements, while Bebop, well, each episode is based on a
>different theme, so you'll get some you like, regardless of taste. And
>maybe one or two you don't.

I'm liking Trigun more and more as it develops some serious undertones. I've seen through disc 6, waiting for 7 to arrive.

Bebop... wow... Just wow... It drips style. One of the best looking anime I've seen, better than most OAVs, and even many theatrical releases. And the music kicks ass - Yoko Kanno is a goddess. (She also did Macross Plus, Escaflowne, Turn A Gundam, and others...)

And the ending was totally intense. Disc 6 left me stunned.

>But there's really so much. If you're a fan of B movies and space
>operas, you'll like Galaxy Express 999 or it's recent revival in
>Esmerelda (sp.).

That's Emeraldas.

>includes, um... well, there are some. You might consider Blue
>Submarine 6 as thoughtful and well made. As for _odd_, there's a _lot_
>of odd stuff. But for something funny with just a hint of strangeness,
>go with Utena.

I'd wait on Utena to see if CPM ever releases the other 2/3 of the series. They released 13 of 39 episodes and stopped.

As for 'just a hint of strangeness' - I take it you've not seen the Utena movie. I had acid trips that weren't that wacked.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

'Hint of strangeness' is a comedic term, obviously: just eiko and bieko (sp) put the series into 'very strange'...

And plus, the point isn't to get a whole series on DVD, the point is to get him so hooked that he hunts down the fansubs...

I didn't realize Dragon Half wasn't on DVD. I have it on VHS, and it's pretty old, so I figured it was. Learn something every day...

BTW, the forum just propagated the new address to my comp today, here at WPI...

-Craig
Need something to read?
http://www.wpi.edu/~perko

The Utena TV show goes off in odd directions as well, although everything starts to MAKE SENSE once you realize what story they're re-telling. I could have hit myself when I realized what was going on.

That said, I think it's one of the better TV shows that I've seen in a while that didn't involve guns.

-john, humorless toad
The difference between a violin and a viola is that a viola burns longer.
-Victor Borge

>I'd wait on Utena to see if CPM ever releases the other 2/3 of the
>series. They released 13 of 39 episodes and stopped.

Oh, great. How long ago?

-- Bob

(Guess who just got into Utena in the last few months?)

Geez, early last year I believe. It was at one of the big cons (AX? I forget, I went to them all last year) that they said they'd just done the deal for 14-26...

Then many months past and nothing came of it, and the word changed to "We're close to making a deal"... CPM has been fscking up pretty bad overall.

Then, fairly recently CPM announced they'd licensed the movie (different licensor from the series). It seems like they may have done something to piss off the TV licensor and now they can't get the rest, or something like that.

They've done that before too - I believe their release of The Ping Pong Club is incomplete. Software Sculptors (which has always had ties to CPM, even before CPM bought them out) did it with Slayers - licensed 13 of 26 of the original series, then floundered and didn't do the rest of the series for a long time. I can't remember the other partials - Zenki I think is one...

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

But, they were well worth the time it took to get them all. The series gets darker and more disturbing as it goes on, sort of EVA-like, only less violent and more sexual. And the soundtrack alone is worth shelling out cash for.

Have you checked out ebay? Last time I was there, there was a lot of anime for sale.

Most Japanese releases are not subtitled.

A Japanese release is the R2 domestic release in Japan, it sounds like you're referring to the R1 subtitled release. Not at all the same thing.

Anime imported directly from Japan is VERY expensive - check out http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/ and look at some of the prices. You can pay $60 or more for a DVD with one 30 minute episode on it, and get the same title in the US for $30 with 3 episodes, etc.

In some cases the quality of the R2 encoding can be higher, but in most cases it isn't a noticabl difference, and certainly not one worth the price increase.

>Have you checked out ebay? Last time I was there, there was a lot of
>anime for sale.

Of course, eBay is swarming with pirated anime - lots of Taiwan and Hong Kong 'releases' which aren't official. Some of them are listed as having subtitles - but mostly those are done by a non-English speaker and they're terrible. Gryphon picked up the GaoGaiGar(sp?) R3 discs, from eBay I think, and it is obviously a pirate. And it is obvious that they first rranslated the Japanese into Chinese by ear, then the Chinese into English. And obviously not by someone with even an elementary grasp of the English language.

So if you're buying things on eBay, you might want to only buy things that are official R1 or R2 releases. I use eBay to sell my old VHS anime, I have a ton of tapes to sell now, need to do another sale.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

--Neophyte (Made in Taiwan) :)

Duck? What duck? Ow!

Media Blasters is releasing the TV series (all, what, 94 episodes?) on DVD and VHS. There are 5 DVDs out, #6 real soon now. They have 4-5 episodes each (varies).

ADV has the Kenshin OAVs and the movie - 4 OAVs released on 2 DVDs, the movie on a 3rd DVD. Catch: Look for "Samurai X" - that's the English title Sony preferred so ADV used it. The dub VHS and DVDs are sold under that title, the sub VHS as Rurouni Kenshin. But the DVDs have a reversible cover so you can flip it around to say Rurouni Kenshin. :-)

>Life ends. Dreams never does. Is it so wrong that I spend my life in
>dreams?

Minor nit. "Life ends. Dreams never do."

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Also check out Ninja Scroll. I personally would rate it great on the
anime part, but kinda of a "B" type story. ::IMHO::

-Malis out

those are probably my big 5. I'd love Utena if they ever got around to releasing it in full; ditto Kareshi Kanojo no Jijou (His And Her Circumstances), which is the Anno Series Where the Kids Don't Pilot Giant Robots and hasn't been released in the States.

Lain is very, very headfucky. Ditto the Evangelion movie, and the Utena movie. I have heard that Trigun gets weirder as it moves along, but I have an innate revulsion about Slayers and, well, Trigun has the same character designer and I've just never been able to get past that. My loss, I hear.

Kenshin starts very slow and goofy. do not let it fool you; the second season starts with gorgeously-rendered historical carnge and only improves. It also has occasional overtones of being the Thinking Man's Dragonball Z, but I kind of liked that.

The original BGC has not aged well for me, and BGC 2040 is probably a better bet for the newcomer.

All IMHO, of course.

Ard Sumhenner
Ronin Research, Silicon Valley, CA

As I recall, TRSI has licensed this.

>but I have an innate revulsion about Slayers and, well, Trigun has the
>same character designer and I've just never been able to get past
>that. My loss, I hear.

Hmm, I never really saw the similarity in the designs... I guess there is some now that I think about it. But Trigun kicks ass.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Just don't forget, if you're going to watch RoLW, watch the first eight OVAs, then the TV series. Don't watch the rest of the OVAs. You'll just get confused.

>If you're a fan of classic anime, check out Armitage III Poly Matrix.
>Not the one by Pioneer that's out mind you.. The original with I think
>it's Keifer Sutherland as the voice of Ross? ::brain death here::

I feel just the opposite - watch the original four-episode Armitage III OVA series, not the Poly-Matrix movie. The movie's chopped together out of the four episodes with some bits left out and some others presented in a different order, and redubbed with a more name-recognizable but markedly inferior voice cast. IMHO.

>Also check out Ninja Scroll. I personally would rate it great on the
>anime part, but kinda of a "B" type story. ::IMHO::

I've never been able to figure out the buzz over this film. I wasn't at all impressed by it.

As for my own picks, go get Giant Robo this very instant. I also highly recommend King of Braves Gaogaigar, but that's not available in English. (I don't count the Hong Kong bootleg DVDs everybody's selling on eBay that claim to have English subs. I have a set of those, and the sub trans is so bad that nobody I've shown them to has been able to get past that and enjoy the show itself.) Oh, and as I mentioned in another thread, Big O is currently in the process of kicking my ass on the Cartoon Network.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

I've seen that one and didn't quite capture my interest.

>Oh, and as I mentioned in another thread, Big O is currently in the
>process of kicking my ass on the Cartoon Network.

Yup since I work out in Cambridge during the afternoon and close my store,
I have to score Big O on midnight run. It's fun to wake up at 5:30 and realize
"Oh damn... I stayed up to watch midnight run and now I'm too bloody tired
to stay awake on the commuter rail!" :)

-Malis out

I love RoLW, although I've only got the first 13-episode 2-DVD boxed set (and the first VHS tape of that same series). A friend of mine recommended it to me; while I've had uneven experiences with her recommendations (she convinced me to give Ranma 1/2 not one, not two, but THREE tries before I permanently relegated it to the "rent only if there is absolutely nothing else" category), I took a chance and bought that first VHS tape, and found myself giggling madly through the entire first ep as I watched a stock fantasy RPG dungeon crawl played out in anime. It was a true geekgasm.

>>If you're a fan of classic anime, check out Armitage III Poly Matrix.
>>Not the one by Pioneer that's out mind you.. The original with I think
>>it's Keifer Sutherland as the voice of Ross? ::brain death here::
>
>I feel just the opposite - watch the original four-episode Armitage
>III OVA series, not the Poly-Matrix movie. The movie's chopped
>together out of the four episodes with some bits left out and some
>others presented in a different order, and redubbed with a more
>name-recognizable but markedly inferior voice cast. IMHO.

The movie is horrible. While I dug the animation, the story wavered from illogical to incomprehensible, and Elizabeth Berkley proved that "Showgirls" was not, in fact, the nadir of her acting inability. It turned me off from Armitage III so completely that it's taken years of hearing nothing but positive buzz about the OVAs for me to even now start considering tracking them down to watch them.

>>Also check out Ninja Scroll. I personally would rate it great on the
>>anime part, but kinda of a "B" type story. ::IMHO::
>
>I've never been able to figure out the buzz over this film. I wasn't
>at all impressed by it.

I dug the animation, the visuals, and the character design. In fact, I did enjoy it pretty well, but it could have been better, and I haven't been able to bring myself to blow the cash for the DVD when there's so many other things I'd rather have. I keep meaning to rent the sequel, but I don't see a need for a sequel without whatsername (Kagero? the female ninja), and I've found myself renting lots of Jet Li since my current rental place has a decided dearth of anime.

My picks... NGE is a given. BGC, original series; haven't seen BGC 2040 yet. (See above note about shitty anime selection.) I've seen the first Trigun disc, and it rocks so hard it hurts. Want more. I'm also a big fan of cheeseball fighting game anime; I actually own the Fatal Fury movie on DVD, the two OVAs on VHS, the Street Fighter Zero/Alpha DVD, and I'm planning on picking up the two Street Fighter II V discs when I have the cash. (Completing my NXE collection has first priority, though.) Will be first in line to get the Akira rerelease; absolutely worship Ghost in the Shell; and just about anything else based on Masamune Shirow's manga only goes to further demonstrate his godliness. (Got Black Magic M-66, Appleseed, and Dominion on DVD is next on my list after completing my NXE collection.) And Tenchi Muyo! and the various other Tenchi series drew me in after I watched some episodes on the Cartoon Network. Wish I could see more on Cartoon Network, but shitty work schedule means that I'm not home for Toonami, and I'm not about to get home and spend two hours watching something I taped. I've got a friend who's trying to get me into Gundam Wing, and I'm not opposed to large mecha, but... I've got enough on my plate as it is. I've seen enough Slayers that I want more. More classic anime? Gunbuster, natch; Vampire Hunter D looks incredibly dated, but whenever I pop it in atmosphere leaks off my TV screen and makes me want to play Vampire: the Masquerade again (closest I come is KotE, and I haven't had a chance to game in over a year); The Wings of Honneamise is one of the best films ever made, in *any* genre or country; um... okay, I'll stop there.

Current series... as I said, Trigun rules the world. Dying to see Lain, Cowboy Bebop, and more of Rurouni Kenshin; mildly interested in Gasaraki and Darkside Blues, but I want to hear more about them before I take the time to hunt them down. More suggestions to add to my list are always welcome ^_^.

-- Sean --

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

You know, this reminds me that there's something about the Ghost in the Shell movie that I just don't get, and it really impacted my enjoyment of the film (even more than the fact that its story attempts to compress a big fat manga into an hour and a half):

You're a producer, or director, or whoever makes these sorts of decisions. You've just been handed the license to a wildly popular manga by a wildly popular artist, whose artwork graces posters and pencil boards and PlayStation games and God only knows what else throughout the universe, a man who is so busy with commissioned character-design jobs that he's starting to doubt his ability to actually do any more manga...

... and you don't use his designs for his own characters?!?!?!!?!

\/\/hatever, fellas! I know Mamoru Oshii is supposed to be like unto a god himself, but if he's the one who made that decision, he screwed a really big pooch.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Huh? Okay, I saw the anime before I read the manga, but Kusanagi, Bateau, and Aramaki are pretty much just less detailed versions of the manga designs; the changes I saw there are the kind necessitated by animation (a simpler design is exponentially easier to animate). The other changes in character design are, for the most part, minor things like hair color (I'd have to go reread the manga and watch the anime to remember them specifically), and we're not talking about major characters, so it's not as annoying. The *biggest* difference I noticed was the body Kusanagi wound up in at the end, but that has a lot to do with symbolism (Oshii going for showing that Kusanagi has become a new lifeform by making her new body a child's, Shirow demonstrating that Kusanagi's new form was capable of reproduction alone through androgyny). I'm more miffed by the sheer amount of story cut from the manga, but I think I'd rather have a brilliantly animated feature film that still communicates the core ideas of the manga rather than having seen a less well-animated OVA series that followed the manga verbatim.

Speaking of Oshii, has anyone here been privileged enough to see "Avalon"? It's his first live-action movie, and I've heard nothing but incredibly good buzz about it.

-- Sean --

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

Batou and Aramaki are close, I'll admit - the most faithful rendering, I think, was Togusa - but as for Kusanagi, well, you're on crack. The difference in the Major's appearance (and demeanor) between the manga and the film is startling. She's not just simplified for animation purposes; she doesn't look like a Shirow character at all. (And she's lost the sense of humor she had in the manga, but that's a different issue... )

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Sequel? There's no sequel to Ninja Scroll.

If you mean Ninja Resurrection, that's not a sequel. It isn't connected to Ninja Scroll by anything other than both featuring Jubei.

And, while it is pretty, it has no ending. They made the two volumes ADV released, and stopped - it leaves everythng hanging just as the plot really gets rolling.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

How disappointing. Pretty animation that's a total waste of time. Kind of reminds me of "The Dagger of Kamui" or "Wrath of the Ninja", two anime I actually fell asleep watching due to sheer boredom. (I'd probably have done that with Dragonball Z if I'd watched that waste of cels more than a half-hour episode at a time. Spent an entire fucking week making time to catch DBZ, and never, ever saw a single plot point develop. It's like wading through post-Claremont X-Men, but without the guilty pleasure of unnaturally endowed women in Spandex.)

-- Sean --

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

At any rate, it's not horrible (I'd watch it over Dragonball, but only just), but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

Unfortunately, I can't contribute much in the way of suggestions, since I haven't been able to see nearly as much anime (new or otherwise) as I would've liked lately. Going from a college campus (University of North Texas) to a public high school (yes, my education has been odd) and then to a small university (University of Colorado, Colorado Springs) where most of the students live off-campus (including me) hasn't helped. Moving to Los Angeles has helped even less--for some reason, I haven't been able to find a decent comic/video store here (North Hollywood/Burbank/etc.), and the selection at mainstream places is much worse here than it was in Colorado Springs.

Well, that was rather longer than I intended.

Actually, it sounds like I should get at least a few episodes of the titles listed previously...I don't really need most of my paycheck anyway, right?

Derek Andersen

Yes it is. :-)

>And as for Lain, I disliked it. It concealed the plot for the sake of
>concealing the plot.

I felt the opposite way - I liked the slow buildup and the mystery.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Lain reminded me of why I *used* to watch the X-Files and later gave it up as a lost cause. Also of the Illuminatus! trilogy, for the blending of conspiracy and history into a reasonably seamless whole.

Regarding Gasaraki, which was mentioned in the previous thread-- I saw the first two episodes. It was, uh, interesting. As one of my friends put it, "Gasaraki is weird, but at least it doesn't make my face hurt like Lain did."

I'm told it gets more lucid in the second tape. wouldn't know.

Ard Sumhenner
Ronin Research, Silicon Valley, CA

I've seen the first 3 DVDs of Gasaraki at this point and I'm really digging it. Yeah, things start to clear up a bit, but new mysteries are introduced.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

I tried to watch Gasaraki. It reminded me of all the things about Neon Genesis Evangelion that I didn't like, plus it has the remarkable feature that you can get all the way through the first disc without learning anybody's name. I wasn't impressed. Where the hell are my Giant Robo DVDs?

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

October or November I believe.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

US: October 30, 2001. (2 DVDs, $30 each)

Japan: now. 3 DVDs of Giant Robo episodes with JApanese and ENGLISH vocal tracks, and a 4th DVD-Rom holding all the 'extras' (concept work, character sketches, cel scans, photos of character goods, box art...). That's my A-kon Quest Item....

--
Geoff Depew - Mephron
"I think I sprained my anterior lobe just thinking about it."

Problem is, ADV has just put DVD volumes 4 and 5 of Gasaraki on indefinite hold. Since my wife and I just got into it in the last six weeks -- and that was basically because of all the advertisements we've seen for it in every other ADV product we've bought in the last year -- this has annoyed us thoroughly.

-- Bob

You're behind - they delayed them weeks ago and have already announced the new dates. #4 is scheduled for 5/01, #5 for 6/19.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

and I second everyone who says The Big O rocks. Just saw some of it earlier today... brilliant.

Ard

Ard Sumhenner
Ronin Research, Silicon Valley, CA

Hopefully not anymore - it has been licensed.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Wait, $35? Hehe, where are they, and do they take mail orders?:)

-={(Astynax)}=-
"Darkness beyond Twilight"

Well, they probably would (or I could talk him into it -- god knows I spend enough there ;). If not, I could help ya out there.

But the deal is, it's used tapes... and they come from his stockpile of rental tapes. I got the good deal because he was offloading them to make room for new stuff... it's really a toss-up as to what's available.

But hey -- if you wanna know, I can find out what's available for ya. :)

(btw -- they're in Spokane, WA, USA. The Comic Book Shop. Ask for Craig -- he's the owner. ;)

--sofaspud
--

I buy used rentals all the time. Only place you can get movies for a decent price anymore <pay $19 for a VHS tape of anything? Yahright>

-={(Astynax)}=-
"Darkness beyond Twilight"

But an hour's like... half of it.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Really? Damn... seems like it'd go longer than that.

Oh well. It's still cool. :)

--sofaspud
--

Yeah, I liked both Eat-Man and Eat-Man '98.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>And Princess Mononoke...if you
>haven't seen that one, then get to it! It's almost certain to be in
>Blockbuster, seeing as it was actually shown on the big screen in
>America.

If the collective 'you' have the means, pick this up on DVD. It's an outstanding disc, and one of the few anime where I'll actually let the English translation run instead of subtitles because a) the voice talent for the English dub is A-List (Gillian Anderson's voice-role being the most suprising and, IMO, the best of the bunch) and b) the translation from Japanese to English was overseen and handled by Neil Gaiman, and is a work of art in and of itself. Amazing stuff.

---------------------------
"I think we used too much."
---------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

Neil Gaiman is one of the greatest writers working today, and the voice cast is excellent (Keith David and Minnie Driver are both outstanding), but I still vastly prefer the Japanese track with the literal translation.

1) The voices of the forest gods. Moro and co. all sound vastly more primal and powerful with deep, thunderous voices that sound like what the trees and mountains would if they could speak.

2) It doesn't treat me like an idiot. I watched the movie with the English track and the literal Japanese subtitles, and the Japanese version actually assumes that the viewer has the ability to recognize what we're seeing (we see that the scar is still there after the Deer God heals the bullet wound, and don't need to be TOLD that it is), and infer things that aren't stated explicitly (like the significance of the crystal knife or cutting off the topknot). As I said, Neil Gaiman is a fantastic writer, but he seems to have been constrained by the format of a dub and the expectations of the studio, as it's fairly rare that I recognize the writing as explicitly his.

3) I'm getting something closer to Miyazaki's vision. I just like it that way better.

-- Sean --

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

Ah, here's another reason why I don't feel any overpowering need to go and see Princess Mononoke, which I forgot to mention earlier. I'm so tired of being told what a great writer Neil Gaiman is I could scream.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Well, not to sound proselytizinous (okay, I just invented a word), but have you actually *read* his stuff? If not, beg, borrow, or steal a copy of Smoke and Mirrors. You will *not* be disappointed.

(Granted, I was converted to Gaimanism by The Sandman, but "Chivalry" is one of the most charming stories I've ever read, and "Murder Mysteries" is absofuckinglutely brilliant. Hell, you can check out scifi.com's Seeing Ear Theatre version of "Murder Mysteries", if you don't mind taking about an hour and change out of your day.)

-- Sean --

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

Part of the purpose of the dub (at least in this case--see the Zero Wing translation that's been run into the ground on the net for the polar opposite) is to convey all these things to a foreign audience while maintaining the integrity of the artform. You assume you're being treated like an idiot because they're concepts you are familiar with, being an anime fan. In Miramax's attempt to package it for American consumption, they have to contend with wanting to be able to sell a ticket (or rental) to Joe Blow in Detroit who's never even been inside a Benihana, let alone studied anything about Japanese culture.

99.9% of the time, they do a translation without much care, hire some low to mid voice talent, and just let it ride. The biggest bitch I have ever heard about anime is how dreadful the majority of the dubs are. (although hearing Kei say "Well, that didn't suck." after blowing the befucking jesus out of something on one of the DP tapes I have put me on the floor in genuine hysterics) In this case, however, they went above and beyond to bring it here and treat it right with great talent and a proper translation that would make sense to the average American while still maintaining the proper sense of awe, wonder, and respect for the intended vision. That's a major accomplishment in and of itself.

>As I said, Neil Gaiman
>is a fantastic writer, but he seems to have been constrained by the
>format of a dub and the expectations of the studio, as it's fairly
>rare that I recognize the writing as explicitly his.

I would put money on the fact that Gaiman would take this comment as a sincere compliment, since the goal wasn't to make it read like his writing, but to conform to Miyazaki's intent and vision. His ability to do that without leaving his own (albeit talented) fingerprints on the material is a testament to his talent, IMHO.

>3) I'm getting something closer to Miyazaki's vision. I just like it
>that way better.

Without a doubt and amen. :)

---------------------------
"I think we used too much."
---------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

Hee hee hee.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Gack. What have I done.

Table for Dr. Freud, Dr. Freud...

---------------------------
"I think we used too much."
---------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

No, I assume that I'm being treated like an idiot because I'm being spoonfed the storyline and plot points. This is a phenomenon that becomes more pronounced every year in Hollywood films, it seems; trailers show you the entire plot to reel you into the movie, and once you get INTO the movie, things like character development and potential social commentary get shoved aside so that we can have everything explicitly laid out for the audience. It's 1:30 AM and I should be in bed, so I'm not going to try to come up with a specific example other than the Castaway trailer: we're shown pretty much the entire plot in the trailer. I haven't seen it, but I know that Tom Hanks is engaged or whatever to Helen Hunt, works for FedEx, rides on a plane which crashes and leaves him stranded on a desert island for four years until he builds a raft and returns to civilization, and by then his love interest has married and had a kid, believing him dead.

>99.9% of the time, they do a translation without much care, hire some
>low to mid voice talent, and just let it ride. The biggest bitch I
>have ever heard about anime is how dreadful the majority of the dubs
>are.

And rightly so. Most of the dubs DO suck. And it's due in no small part to the fact that English doesn't sync well to Japanese mouth flaps. And it seems like the same three or four actors do about 90% of the dubs. When I bought all my anime on VHS, the only dub I ever owned was Akira, and that's because I couldn't find the sub.

>(although hearing Kei say "Well, that didn't suck." after
>blowing the befucking jesus out of something on one of the DP tapes I
>have put me on the floor in genuine hysterics)

hehehe

> In this case, however,
>they went above and beyond to bring it here and treat it right with
>great talent and a proper translation that would make sense to the
>average American while still maintaining the proper sense of awe,
>wonder, and respect for the intended vision. That's a major
>accomplishment in and of itself.

True, although hearing Claire Danes refer to Mononoke Hime as "kid's stuff" in the featurette still makes me shudder in revulsion.

>I would put money on the fact that Gaiman would take this comment as a
>sincere compliment, since the goal wasn't to make it read like his
>writing, but to conform to Miyazaki's intent and vision. His ability
>to do that without leaving his own (albeit talented) fingerprints on
>the material is a testament to his talent, IMHO.

Actually, I remember reading an interview with him about scripting the dub, and he comments about the fact that he only rarely hears his own rhythms coming through. I think he *wanted* it to be recognizable as his work to some degree, simply by virtue of being a writer. After all, the only way a writer *gets* recognition other than by having his name attached somewhere visible is by having his style recognized.

-- Sean --

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

>No, I assume that I'm being treated like an idiot because I'm being
>spoonfed the storyline and plot points. This is a phenomenon that
>becomes more pronounced every year in Hollywood films, it seems;

I agree, and I see it on a regular basis out here. It's starting to bite them in the ass as we speak. ("Gosh, 'Tomkats' isn't making any money. But, but, but...") In this particular case, though, I personally don't see it as being that severe. ::shrugs::

>trailers show you the entire plot to reel you into the movie, and once
>you get INTO the movie, things like character development and
>potential social commentary get shoved aside so that we can have
>everything explicitly laid out for the audience.

A MASSIVE problem, I whole heartedly agree. I'm hoping the right people caught Steve Martin's joke during the Oscars this year.

>It's 1:30 AM and I
>should be in bed, so I'm not going to try to come up with a specific
>example other than the Castaway trailer: we're shown pretty much the
>entire plot in the trailer.

Castaway, What Lies Beneath (Zemekis seems to be having a rough time of it, must be whoever he has cutting his trailers), Girl Interrupted (I lost all desire to see this movie after seeing the trailer, which was almost *4* minutes long. It's a damn short film in it's own right.). Those are all that come off the top of my head at the moment. It sucks, and they'll do something about it when it starts killing ticket sales. Or, at least when they realize it's hurting ticket sales. Ugh.

>True, although hearing Claire Danes refer to Mononoke Hime as
>"kid's stuff" in the featurette still makes me shudder in revulsion.

Wow. I am so glad I haven't watched that, in that case. As well as they might have done the rest of the disc, promotional fluff is still promotional fluff, no matter how it's packaged.

>Actually, I remember reading an interview with him about scripting the
>dub, and he comments about the fact that he only rarely hears his own
>rhythms coming through. I think he *wanted* it to be recognizable as
>his work to some degree, simply by virtue of being a writer. After
>all, the only way a writer *gets* recognition other than by having his
>name attached somewhere visible is by having his style recognized.

I don't know if that counts as him wanting it to be like that, but I hadn't read that, so I guess I can't comment.

It also assumes he wanted the recognition for anything other than a competant translation. He never struck me as the credit-hound type (movie credits are assigned in many cases by union rules and such, so the fact that he's listed doesn't automatically mean he fought for it--I've missed many credits of my own by the producer's ruthless axe) but I don't personally know the man, so, who knows.

---------------------------
"I think we used too much."
---------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

See, that's the problem. It's not hurting ticket sales.

My movie-buff friend and I were talking about this a little while back. He hates Zemeckis with a passion, precisely because he loves good trailers, and Zemeckis always puts out trailers that give the whole thing away.

What Lies Beneath, and almost every other recent Zemeckis film, have spoiler trailers. And they still do blockbuster business. I thought WLB was gonna tank, but it did exteremely well. See also Cast Away.

The thing is, Zemeckis wants it this way. In some interview, he said that he does his trailers specifically to give everything away, because he thinks audiences want to know everything about a film before they go see it, or somesuch. Unfortunately, the numbers he produces back him up.

Yeah, it sucks.

I remember Contact being an excellant trailer that didn't really give out too much in comparison.

>What Lies Beneath, and almost every other recent Zemeckis film, have
>spoiler trailers. And they still do blockbuster business. I thought
>WLB was gonna tank, but it did exteremely well. See also Cast Away.
>
>The thing is, Zemeckis wants it this way. In some interview, he said
>that he does his trailers specifically to give everything away,
>because he thinks audiences want to know everything about a film
>before they go see it, or somesuch. Unfortunately, the numbers he
>produces back him up.

He's helped by the fact that he makes consistantly good films. He is also one of the best technical directors. His 'effect' stuff is whiz-bang on an entirely different level then most, as in the running down the hall into the reverse mirror shot in Contact, or the under-the-floor shot in WLB. I went to see WLB even though the trailer blew the MacGuffin twist in it, and still wound up enjoying it as a well made film. Same for Castaway--Tom Hanks really holds that one up, and Zemekis knew enough to let him. And there's a lot of wizardry going on in it that you might never know was there (although the whale at the end looks like shit, but it happens).

And at the end of the day, if it's the way he wants it and he can still make movies that put butts in seats despite it, more power to him.

---------------------------
"I think we used too much."
---------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

That one literally brought tears to my eyes. And the soundtrack (which I devoutly hope is the one that's actually in the movie) is wonderful.

Eric J. Heckathorn
(who has soundtracks for movies he's never even seen)
ericjh@stargate.net

I'm not sure on the music, as it's fairly common practice to place score music from other movies in trailers, as many times the score for the movie being advertised isn't complete yet when they put the trailer out.

I deeply fear this movie, because it reeks of Michael Bay and Disney saying "Hey, we want oscars too!", and the subject matter is delicate enough that they stand to really screw the pooch on it.

The Disney Machine will assure that it'll make scads of cash (it better, seeing as it's costing almost as much as Titanic did) but if Bay uses the same brain he used while making Armageddon, I'm going to throttle someone upon leaving the theater. :)

---------------------------
"I think we used too much."
---------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

Well, that may be because folks have trouble spending so fmuch money on tickets and not knowing what they are going to see. Taking someone to the movies <say, a SO> Will cost you $20 if you factor in popcorn and soda <and that's splitting the popcorn and soda between you, not one for each>. Not exactly cheap for a one shot bit of entertainment.

If there were Oscars for trailers, though, I'd have given one to the trailers for '6th Sense'. Enough information to make you feel its worth your $$$, but the ending still comes out of left field.

Of course, you have to have a good film to make a good trailer, so perhaps the point is mostly moot for movies these days anyway;)

-={(Astynax)}=-
"Darkness beyond Twilight"

No you don't. The trailer for The World Is Not Enough was way better than the movie.

(Which was an incredible letdown after Tomorrow Never Dies.)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

You know, thing is, entertainment is there to give people what they want. If Moneywood is dumbing it down, that sends a scary message about the average movie goer.

>And rightly so. Most of the dubs DO suck. And it's due in no small
>part to the fact that English doesn't sync well to Japanese mouth
>flaps. And it seems like the same three or four actors do about 90%
>of the dubs. When I bought all my anime on VHS, the only dub I ever
>owned was Akira, and that's because I couldn't find the sub.
>

1. Not all dubs suck, and they do serve a purpose. There are times when one doesn't want to be quite as active watching some anime, and its nice to not have to read and pay attaention to the action at the same time.
2. I had noticed the thing about recycling voice actors <Watch an episode of, say Pokemon, then watch and episode of Slayers, for example. Nearly every major VA in one has some part in the other. THAT realization scared the shit out of me for a while>

-={(Astynax)}=-
"Darkness beyond Twilight"

The manga is also quite good, and rather funnier in places. Two compilations are available translated.

Anime-wise, I preferred Eat-Man '98; the art style and chara designs are more faithful to the manga, the stories make some vague approximation of sense, and the animation was produced on more than $11 per episode...

>Battle Angel (cyborg/post apocalpse/deep
>philosophy/lots 'n lots of gore).

If you can find it. One of my favorites, but I seem to recall hearing it's gone out of print.

>And Princess Mononoke...if you
>haven't seen that one, then get to it!

You know, it's funny... I haven't seen this, and I don't really feel any pressing need to do so. I've seen a couple of Miyazaki's films and, while I didn't dislike them, I never really understood what the big deal is about him. Plus he has a tendency to wander off into the sort of O-man-is-wicked environmental maunderings that really irritate me.

>On a side note, does anyone know if the Final Fantasy anime is any
>good? I'm a huge fan of the games, which means I will be seeing it
>sometime. I can't seem to find that first volume, though.

I've heard that it is, in fact, very bad, but have not seen it myself. YMMV.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

I can only count Totoro and Princess Mononoke that I've actually seen. Between the two, I have to much fun watching Totoro to let myself get caught up in any preachyness, but that's just me. It definitly does have a bit of a statement about it, but I think the other aspects make it enough fun to overlook (and it certainly isn't as clubbing-you-to-death-with-a-message as most Disney fare is).

As far as Mononoke, I went into it a little concerned that it was going to get like that, but was plesantly suprised at how evenly it was delt with. Conservation is certainly a core part of the story, but it doesn't portray any one segment as compeltly 'bad' or 'evil'. Just my opinion, obviously, but I thought it was deftly handled.

And Miramax deserves kudos for their treatment of the dvd release which, as I said before, does it no end of justice.

---------------------------
"I think we used too much."
---------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company

OK, yes, fairness where it's due - My Neighbor Totoro is one of my favorite animated films. I just haven't gone from there to being a fan of its creator, the way a lot of people seem to have.

Totoro doesn't seem (to me, anyway) to have all that much in the way of an overarching Message, though, other than "cherish your family," which is one I can get behind.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Haven't you seen others? Porco Rosso? Laputa?

As for Mononoke - yes, it has an environmental theme, but I don't think it is overwhelming. It is more the basis for the forest gods, etc, in the story. Check out my DVD sometime.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>>OK, yes, fairness where it's due - My Neighbor Totoro is one of
>>my favorite animated films. I just haven't gone from there to being a
>>fan of its creator, the way a lot of people seem to have.
>
>Haven't you seen others? Porco Rosso? Laputa?

Porco Rosso is one of his?

(Thinks about the character designs for a moment.)

Oh, yeah, I suppose it must be.

OK, you got me. It's a fair cop. Society's to blame.

He directed Castle of Cagliostro, too, now that I think about it, but that franchise was created by someone else, so I don't think that's very representational.

I haven't seen Laputa, though.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

*nod*

>He directed Castle of Cagliostro, too, now that I think about
>it, but that franchise was created by someone else, so I don't think
>that's very representational.

And a couple of other Lupin bits as well. But 'Castle' is considered one of his works since he had a lot to do with many aspects of the movie.

>I haven't seen Laputa, though.

The one I haven't seen and wish I had is Nausicaa - the manga was my introduction to his works, back in high school. But I have always managed to miss my chances to see the film. When they had the Miyazaki film fest at the Brattle the one weekend I was out of town and didn't go was the one where they showed it - of course.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>I've heard that it is, in fact, very bad, but have not seen it myself.
> YMMV.
I knew it wouldn't be too great. A tiny amount of popularity coupled with very good name recognition is never a good sign.

Oh, well. I still have high hopes for the movie this summer...

It was so bad we couldn't look away. At the same time, it was so laughable, it ran deep into the depths of what I can only envision as B-anime.

Watch it to laugh at how badly they mangled the title, if you're going to spend the money to rent it. I _do_ mean rent it, by the way. If you buy this, you're a masochist.

Or a sadist, waiting to hand it off to someone else.

Oh, ye gods.

Bad.

Very Bad.

Horrific.

--truss.
But the MST3K of it at Otakon 2000 was absolutely inspired...