I believe the Nightwing identity remains available in UF. :)

I think the point was that Gryphon has no interest in using Damian Wayne, who has been Robin since Dick Grayson took over the Batman half of Batman and Robin in the DCU.

Peter Eng
--
Insert humorous comment here.

Curiously enough, as much as I also dislike the little psycho, he has been oddly fun at times. Usually in stories with either Dick or Steph, who have the sense of humor and attitude to play off his 'I am the perfect annoying little shit' routine.

Matrix Dragon, J. Random Nutter

The less said about the new 52, tho, the better. I prefer Bacon Comics' take.

Still, it's Ben's call. I have neither the ability nor the desire to sway his mind, and I'm fine with that.

Hnh? You wouldn't know it from Batman: Gates of Gotham. He's horrible to her in that even by his own ambitious horrible-to-people standards. ISTR the phrase "spineless, weak and naive" came up. Still vaguely disappointed that she didn't kill him. I mean, what the hell, they'd just spent the last two years inexplicably portraying her as a villain anyway.

--G.
Sorry, sorry, the whole thing still makes me kind of... angry.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Kid's an assassin. That's not a crush talking, it's professional courtesy. :)

Maybe that's why he's such an ass to her in Gates. Upon finally meeting her he discovered that she was not, in fact, a blood-drinking villainous fellow-traveller after all, and his disappointment converted instantly into hostility.

--G.
have I mentioned I hate that little fucker? I'm concerned that I might not have conveyed that fully
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

It was subtle, but I think I managed to catch the subtext. :)

Good, good. One hates to think one is inadvertently belaboring a point.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

“They planned their campaigns just as you might make a splendid piece of harness. It looks very well; and answers very well; until it gets broken; and then you are done for. Now I made my campaigns of ropes. If anything went wrong, I tied a knot; and went on.”
-- Arthur Wellesley, First Duke of Wellington

Maybe they were planning to do one of those hate -> love to hate -> hate to love -> love transitions, but have been hampered by their present masters' inability to sanction meaningful character development, so he's just stuck at "hate".

Speaking of which, update: I just read Supergirl: Good-Looking Corpse, a story arc from shortly before the Great Upfuck in which Kara, Damian, Jaime Reyes and an oddly cruel Miss Martian team up to deal with a Villainous Plot Against Kid Superheroes. I still hate him. :)

It's really kind of getting me down that I've liked so much of what I've belatedly seen of the DC material from in between Whateverthehell Crisis and the Great Upfuck. I got so disgusted with that early-to-mid-noughties Crisis cycle that I walked away ca. '06 and paid as little attention as possible for the rest of the decade. While I was doing that, it turns out, they unexpectedly got a whole bunch of stuff right between 2009 and 2011... and then threw it all away on purpose.

Sigh.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

The thing is, most of the cool stuff they threw out has nothing whatsoever to do with Superman, or very little. Also, I do remember, when I read the article that said how the property was split, thinking that if it was accurate, they'd need to change very little, like renaming a few characters and planets. Since the new Kal-el is still from Krypton, IIRC, the accuracy of the article, or my memory of it, doesn't seem to be very good. When I have more time, I'll try to see what I can find on the lawsuit.

“They planned their campaigns just as you might make a splendid piece of harness. It looks very well; and answers very well; until it gets broken; and then you are done for. Now I made my campaigns of ropes. If anything went wrong, I tied a knot; and went on.”
-- Arthur Wellesley, First Duke of Wellington

And Cass spends the entire mini trying to work out how Tim hasn't killed the little shit yet. When Cass considers the benefits of killing someone, even jokingly, you know they really are a bastard.

Matrix Dragon, J. Random Nutter

Quite a bit less preposterously formal (even when Grant has good ideas, which isn't that often, he then tends to implement them in unsatisfactory ways), but the underlying concept is at least broadly similar, yes. There's also a little less of the Batmen of All Nations flavor going on. I love the goofy surreality of the Batmen of All Nations in, say, The Brave and the Bold, but perhaps not quite so much in a setting that's trying to be at least partly serious. :)

That said, the gang around the McGinnis Bat Cave does sometimes refer to even the currently extant Tim/Cassie New Avalon operation as an "expansion franchise" (which was one of the working titles of this piece), when they're not calling it, as in Terry's salutation over in "Triple-Encrypted Batmail", the Avalon branch office.

Terry probably tried to convince Tim to become the Avalon Batman first, but...

Anyway, this mini is stage one of a "told you that story to tell you this one" knot that's at least three layers deep, and it's all about repositioning the whole Batman gang for New Frontier. This is not, I own, exactly the highest-priority piece of NF prep in the canon, and could probably stand to wait until S5 and CR are finished, but I've found to my annoyance over the years that these things happen in the order in which they happen, and if I try to defer them I usually just break them, so this is what you get. Sigh...

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Offsides

[...] in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #π
#include <stdsig.h>

Unlike some *koffmarvelkoff* *koffdckodd* we're trying to avoid mass retcons.

("The NewUF? I don't think it should exist.")

--
Geoff Depew - Darth Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Dark Lord of Sith Tech Support.
"And Remember! Google is your Friend!!"

Hey, I'm not against retcons as a matter of first principle; done right they can be quite pleasing. Elegant, even.

What they're doing at both of the Big Two these days is more akin to letting Stimpy press the History Eraser Button.

--G.
"YOU just want my ICE CREAM BAR! I've had it since I was a CHILD. Everyone's always trying to TAKE it from me!"
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

I actually wrote an article about continuity & retcons for an online fanzine called Fanzing many MANY moons ago, covering (among other things) the fact that there are different degrees of retcon, from adding "Untold Tales" to throwing out the past completely.

What's happening at the Two (they aren't big to me, anymore) is less enhanced storytelling, and more scorched earth. :P

Dear Lord... that just gave me the mental imagery of a 2-AI-player game of Scorched Earth, with two tanks named Marvel and DC... Explosions are set to the maximum size, and the AIs are set to 'Moron'.

Black Aeronaut Technologies Creative aerospace solutions for the discerning spacer "Murphy never sleeps, but that's no reason to poke him with a sharp stick."

Swear to God, I've seen a Moron AI aim his barrel 90 degrees with no wind. Best part? Talking tanks was turned on so it goes, "I wonder what this button does?" and then afterwards, "Oops."

While you're at it, how about also setting it to synchronous?

>Swear to God, I've seen a Moron AI aim his barrel 90 degrees with no wind.

Yes, and?

Moron is the AI setting that means 'takes random shots'.

Never played it, but "Two sluggish idiots taking shots at random in the hopes they win" sounds about right…

There a thread on the Spacebattle forum (well, a series of threads really) called 'Bruce has a Problem' that has become a round robin story. Basicly, Harley Quinn, upon hearing the announcement, realized that Batman is 'too much of a control freak to let someone else control his purse-strings' and realized Bruce is the Bat.

Being Harley, she then leapt to the conclusion that Batman has been 'courting her' all those years with the battles and Wayne funded attempts to reform/cure her. So she decides to dump Joker and join her new love, Batman.

the first chunk of the RR deals with the Batclan (and some of the bat-villains) trying to wrap their heads around this development.

-------------
Lead me not to temptation, for I can find it myself.

Bruce in particular must've had difficulty with that. An image occurs of him beating his head against a wall whilst mumbling incoherently to himself. Alfred and whoever-this-week's-Robin-is look on.

"Alfred... do you think he'll be alright?"

"I think it would be best if we let him get it out of his system."

"Out of his - he's been sat there beating his head against the wall for three days!"

"The last time he did that, it lasted a week. My strategy then would perhaps not be as effective now."

"What did you use?"

"A knickerbocker glory and tickets to the Barney the Dinosaur live performance, young Master."

"... Would you mind if I write that down?"

---
"Yeah, I'm definitely going to hell/But I'll have all the best stories to tell" -- Frank Turner, The Ballad of Me and My Friends

Not that Kate isn't an interesting character on her own, but it would simplify things...

Black Aeronaut Technologies Creative aerospace solutions for the discerning spacer "Murphy never sleeps, but that's no reason to poke him with a sharp stick."

Anyway, Barbara is the only redhead (among the women. Jay may or may not have red hair, depending on the version in use)

He doesn't. Carrie Kelley does, but I haven't used her anywhere.

--G.
yet
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

My relationship with The Dark Knight Returns is similar to my relationship with Watchmen in many ways, but with one important difference. Whereas I regret, not to say deplore, the continuing effect that both of them have had on the genre as a whole, I found much to enjoy in DKR itself.

(As an aside, please make with a little of the reply-with-quote action occasionally. There are about four separate sub-conversations happening in this thread at this point, and I didn't have a blind idea which of them you were talking about until I backtracked to the post you were replying to. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

That's fair. I have a similar reaction, except in my case it's enhanced by my fondness for certain 1970's stories that have been eclipsed thanks to the polarizing effect DKR has had. So many fans assume "anti-Miller" equates to "pro-campy".

>(As an aside, please make with a little of the reply-with-quote action
>occasionally.

Can do.

Yeah, it's weird how people forget that there were badass Batman stories before DKR. Just off the top of my head I can think of two from the late '70s that still stick in my mind today. One was an issue of Justice League of America, back in the "satellite headquarters 22,300 miles above the Earth" days, in which some kind of global catastrophe was going on. I forget what it was exactly - the sun was engulfing the Earth and everything was on fire, or something similar - but the League was absolutely up against the wall just trying to stop the world from ending outright, and they left Batman on the satellite 'cause, well, you know, whole planet literally on fire, guy without any superpowers needs to stay out of the way.

Nowadays, of course, everyone knows intuitively that what happens next is that Batman saves the entire planet at stupendous personal risk while everyone else is busy holding up collapsing bridges long enough for school buses to get across and whatnot, but at the time, that was amazing, and I remember being profoundly struck by the message there - that the guy without superpowers is the one member of the League who actually has both the smarts and the balls to save the day.

Aha, here we are - Justice League of America #170, cover dated September 1979. So I was... five or six, depending on how far off the cover date the actual publication was.

The other was probably the first issue of Batman I ever saw, which a quick hunt around that same site reveals as #306, December 1978. Again, well before DKR - even earlier than JLA 170 - and again, not in any way campy. Pretty heavy stuff, actually. Admittedly, I was well outside the target demo, being five, but even so, the Black Spider... dang, man. I'm pretty sure that guy would still be considered fairly dark today. And check out that cover. Jim Aparo's Batman and no dialogue (the latter quite unusual for a DC cover of the period). And they say '70s comics weren't art. :)

Nostalgia is rose-tinted, of course, and I imagine there was plenty wrong with those comics that would make me headslap now, but still. The people who look back now and perceive DKR as some kind of K/T boundary between Adam West and Kevin Conroy are all wet.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Indeed. I first came across the stories from this era in this big Batman hardcover my parents bought me while I was recovering from getting my tonsils removed (so, around 77-78). There was one story in particular (a ghost story of sorts) that fried my brain.

And, of course, the Goodwin/Simonson Manhunter stories, which STILL hold up, and needs to be put back in print, dammit!

I was kicking the notion around a bit. I mean, Barbara's 41 when this is all going down, and although exceedingly well-maintained (in 2411, 41 is the new 20 anyway), she's an established professional badass in her own right by this point. I suspect she would feel a little silly calling herself "Batgirl" again, even if there wasn't already one in town and another over in Gotham.

On the other hand, what's in a name?

"Look, call yourself Batchick or Nightbat or Black Robin or whatever, just... "

--G.
would've actually kinda liked "Black Robin", even though it makes no sense
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

I wonder if the IPO has room for an SO team called "Birds of Prey"

Indeed it isn't, although ironically, in his earlier UF appearances (e.g., S4: Second Chances; Titans #2), Terry hasn't been dressed that way; his gear is described there as black and silver, and more obviously armored, with a headpiece less like the Batman Beyond mask and more like the Bat-helmets Bruce wears occasionally when things get really splodey (Kingdom Come, various whole-world-on-fire JLA stories).

If I recall correctly, the main motivation behind depicting him that way at the time was because I've never been entirely satisfied with the Batman Beyond suit's capelessness and weird mask (he's wearing a full-face mask and yet he has a mouth? How is that even supposed to work?). At the same time, I didn't want to put him in one of those rubber movie suits (fun fact: the Batsuit for the Tim Burton Batman movies was designed by the same people who did the stillsuits for David Lynch's Dune), so what my mental image ended up most resembling was the sonar armor from Batman vs. Predator - and who remembers that nowadays - with what they call a "redeco" in the toy industry.

Today, that whole decision process strikes me as a bit naff, but what're you gonna do. Anyway, there's no reason to assume Terry would never, ever change up his gear, anyway. Even Bruce did that from time to time.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Hey! I was talking about that image here last week! I quite liked it.

--
-Pasha
What was that feeling again?
Oh yes.
-Rage-

I still don't like the mask (the I-have-no-mouth-and-I-must-scream thing doesn't work for me), but the rest of it works.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

I like it, for exactly the reason that Huntress first used it. It guards the mouth, you can build a respirator into it, if need be, heck you could even build some armour into it. It always kind of bothered me that nobody noticed that Bruce Wayne had dozens of little scars on his lower face.

--
-Pasha
What was that feeling again?
Oh yes.
-Rage-

S'what you get when you're always shaving while hung over from wild parties with sexy acresses and Playboy models.

It's the future. Nanotech? Flexmetal? SmartFibre™?

Or something beyond my ability to imagine, let alone make up a cute name for it?

Peter Eng
--
Insert humorous comment here.

---
"Yeah, I'm definitely going to hell/But I'll have all the best stories to tell" -- Frank Turner, The Ballad of Me and My Friends