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Gryphonadmin
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"Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
 
   You have been warned. These are also not going to be in any particular order, if that kind of thing bothers you.

OK, so. As you are all well aware by now, my relationship with this series is... fraught. Nevertheless, I haven't given up hope entirely yet, and I watched the first couple of episodes last night. (Not the third one. Saturation levels. Not a big fan of the binge viewing experience in general.) Here are a few thoughts.

- As I noted when it was released as a promotional clip, the first scene with the vines made me facepalm. Korra and Tenzin doing the Korra-and-Tenzin thing, as they have since Day 1; she gets frustrated and stomps off, he pets her patronizingly on the head. Really, guys, we're still doing this?

Speaking of "we're still doing this" and vine scenes, the second scene with the vines made me want to kick something. Guys. GUYS. It's 2014. We can be DONE with the "Korra can't actually fix anything, in fact she makes everything worse and everybody hates her for it" thing now. HONEST, I WON'T MIND.

- What's new in Issue 3: Air Control for Dominators. Doctor Brainstorm's Power Set Proliferator has struck again, and the popular Airbending set is now available to the most diabolical of Villain Archetypes.

I'm... I don't think I'm OK with airbender proliferation on a lot of levels. Phil is, so I'm probably stuck with it, but I think that's some pretty weak sauce being drizzled on us there.

Speaking of which, while I'm not in any way surprised that Tenzin wasn't expecting people to resist conscription into the Psi Corps, it does strike me as pretty dubious that Korra thought things would turn out differently. After all, she should know better than basically anybody else how monumentally unappealing the Air Nomad lifestyle is to any even slightly normal person. She nearly burned the island down when Tenzin tried to make her live like one. That she then goes on to be surprised and glum that their ham-fisted recruitment efforts fail is, I think, disingenuous on the part of the writers. It's blatant plot-furtherance at the expense of what the characters would actually do. You can see the scaffolding.

Also, will someone please drown the one recruit (well, apart from Bumi) they did get, please. I'll wait. Thanks.

- I think I like Mako as Korra's ex better than I liked him as Korra's utterly unworthy boyfriend, but I still don't like him. Bolin's little dance convincing him to come along on the field trip was hilarious, but frankly it would've been OK with me if he hadn't bothered. (Seeing him get clobbered by a door almost made airbender proliferation worth it for a brief moment.)

On the other hand, I have to admit I would willingly, even happily, accept another entire episode of The Legend of Mako: Poorly Trained Policeman (the saddest of Book 2's many sad-Keanu moments) in lieu of all the screen time I know that airbender kid is going to get.

- An unalloyed positive thing! The Korramobile scene was everything I could have wanted out of such a scene, and I require many more like it. (N.B. They don't all actually have to take place in the Korramobile. I would also accept bridge-of-the-blimp scenes, corner-table-at-a-café scenes, and - O almighty Grodd, hear my plea! - hot tub scenes.)

- Bolin remains brilliant. Pabu remains brilliant. Naga remains brilliant. Asami remains some distance beyond brilliant. Lin Beifong remains... rather less than brilliant. Way to remember who your friends are, hon. Your mom was a real jerk sometimes, but at least she was always able to keep that straight.

- Speaking of less-than-brilliant characters, President Raiko! I want that weasely little fuck down on his knees begging Korra to come back and save his city, and then I want her to not do it until the inhabitants of that city have realized that she isn't going to as long as he's still there and taken him out around back of the garage, never to be seen again. (Don't worry, sweetie, he's gone to live on a farm with lots of other crooked politicians. He's happy there!)

- The White Lotus continue to be both jerkbags and ineffectual. This is unacceptable. I will only put up with one of the two in any ostensibly-good-guy organization. I am frankly OK with it at this point if the Legion of Doom manage to kill them all.

- Speaking of which, the Legion of Doom. What? I mean, they're better villains than the Equalists, but only by dint of the fact that the Equalists were so lame. I guess Korra's just never going to have a villain that can compete with the entire Fire Nation in terms of gravitas.

- I dig the Airship of Love (I think I'll start referring to it as the George and Vulture, because it's almost exactly what I was envisioning for the UF Hellfire Club's pleasure zeppelin), but wasn't Asami dead broke like last week? Even Tony Stark didn't recover that fast the time he lost Stark International. Damn, girl.


So. Some bad points, some good points, and some points on which I haven't figured out where I stand yet. The first two episodes are uneven, and in places they still make me want to do pugilism someone, but they weren't the absolutely unrelieved whipping that the show has pretty consistently been for me since midway through Book 1, so that's a hopeful thing, relatively speaking.

Korra herself, in these two episodes, is also weirdly uneven, much like the show. She is occasionally brilliant (the scene on the Kyoshi Bridge, for instance, although she does appear to have either forgotten that she could, in fact, help that guy not be an airbender any more, or chose to bullshit him about it for some reason)... and then she suddenly isn't any more, and we're back to the old standbys like the "vine removal mayhem" scene, the "whining about wisdom" scene, and the "I don't get it, why didn't beating that guy up get him on our side?" scene. It feels like the writers know she's trying to grow, and sometimes their attention wanders and she gets away with it a little, but then they consciously set her back for some inexplicable reason.

That, in particular, remains very frustrating, and causes me to remain wary of assurances I receive that It's Gonna Be Worth It Eventually; but so far, Book 3 has not been throw-up-hands-and-go-back-to-bed infuriating like Book 2 was.

So far.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 Mercutio Jun-29-14 1
     RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 Gryphonadmin Jun-29-14 2
         RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 Mercutio Jun-29-14 3
             RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 Gryphonadmin Jun-29-14 4
                 RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 Mercutio Jun-29-14 5
                     RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 Gryphonadmin Jun-29-14 6
                         RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 The Traitor Jun-29-14 9
                             RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 Gryphonadmin Jun-29-14 10
                                 RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 The Traitor Jun-29-14 15
                                     RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 Mercutio Jun-30-14 16
                                     RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 Gryphonadmin Jun-30-14 18
                                         RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 The Traitor Jun-30-14 19
                     RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 SpottedKitty Jun-29-14 7
  Notes on Chapter 3 Gryphonadmin Jun-29-14 8
     RE: Notes on Chapter 3 Mercutio Jun-29-14 11
         RE: Notes on Chapter 3 Gryphonadmin Jun-29-14 12
             RE: Notes on Chapter 3 Mercutio Jun-29-14 13
                 RE: Notes on Chapter 3 Gryphonadmin Jun-29-14 14
  Also: Gryphonadmin Jun-30-14 17
  RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 twipper Jul-01-14 20
     RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 Nova Floresca Jul-01-14 21
     RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 Gryphonadmin Jul-01-14 22
         RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 Mercutio Jul-01-14 23
             RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 Gryphonadmin Jul-02-14 24
         RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 TheOtherSean Jul-02-14 25
             RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 Gryphonadmin Jul-02-14 26
                 RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 twipper Jul-02-14 29
                     RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 Gryphonadmin Jul-02-14 30
                 RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 Mercutio Jul-06-14 31
                     RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 junipermoderator Jul-07-14 32
                         RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 drakensis Jul-08-14 33
             RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 JeanneHedge Jul-02-14 27
                 RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 mdg1 Jul-02-14 28
  Chapters 4 and 5 Gryphonadmin Jul-11-14 34
     RE: Chapters 4 and 5 Mercutio Jul-11-14 35
         RE: Chapters 4 and 5 Gryphonadmin Jul-12-14 37
     RE: Chapters 4 and 5 Gryphonadmin Jul-12-14 36
         RE: Chapters 4 and 5 mdg1 Jul-12-14 38
             RE: Chapters 4 and 5 Gryphonadmin Jul-18-14 40
  Chapters 6 and 7 Gryphonadmin Jul-18-14 39
  RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3 Gryphonadmin Jul-20-14 41

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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
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Jun-29-14, 01:04 AM (EDT)
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1. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #0
 
  
> - As I noted when it was released as a promotional clip, the first
>scene with the vines made me facepalm. Korra and Tenzin doing the
>Korra-and-Tenzin thing, as they have since Day 1; she gets frustrated
>and stomps off, he pets her patronizingly on the head. Really, guys,
>we're still doing this?

... wait, what?

Tenzin is kind of Korra's mentor. He never patronizes her, except to the extent that any relationship involving a very young girl and a middle-aged man is going to involve some of that.

>I'm... I don't think I'm OK with airbender proliferation on a lot of
>levels. Phil is, so I'm probably stuck with it, but I think that's
>some pretty weak sauce being drizzled on us there.

Hmm. Is it weird that I'm incredibly enthusiastic about the airbender proliferation in general, but am actually really ticked off about it applying to Bumi in particular?

I really, really liked that Aang had a kid who didn't bend and who very clearly took after Sokka and Hakoda.

>Speaking of which, while I'm not in any way surprised that Tenzin
>wasn't expecting people to resist conscription into the Psi Corps, it
>does strike me as pretty dubious that Korra thought things would turn
>out differently. After all, she should know better than basically
>anybody else how monumentally unappealing the Air Nomad lifestyle is
>to any even slightly normal person. She nearly burned the island down
>when Tenzin tried to make her live like one. That she then
>goes on to be surprised and glum that their ham-fisted recruitment
>efforts fail is, I think, disingenuous on the part of the writers.
>It's blatant plot-furtherance at the expense of what the characters
>would actually do. You can see the scaffolding.

This strikes me as wrong in a few ways.

The Air Nomad lifestyle isn't monumentally appealing to any even slightly normal person; it's monumentally unappealing to Korra specifically. There are lots and lots of people for whom the lifestyle is in fact incredibly appealing, and we know that because people keep seeking it out. Things may have changed a bit by LoK, but at least back in Aang's day tons of people wanted to be Air Acolytes. There are enough of them in Korra's time to fully staff multiple air temples!

(Traditionally, being a monk has been a really, really sweet deal. You get a roof over your head and three meals a day and people treat you with respect and you can drink all the liquor you can brew.)

But putting that aside... it makes perfect sense Korra would expect people to drop everything in their lives and sack up for the greater good, because that's what literally her entire life has been like. It's not so much she expects them to be enthusiastic about being airbenders, I don't think. She expects them to be enthusiastic about fulfilling their destinies, because clearly, they've been chosen to help rebuild an ancient culture that's been on the brink of extinction for two centuries. You can't just decide not to take part in that!

... can you?

It probably also doesn't help that Korra has likely been marinating in an environment that completely mythologizes the airbenders and their plight her entire life. She's the successor to the Last Airbender, trained and mentored by the widow of said airbender, then trained and mentored further by the son of said airbender (who was ALSO the Last Airbender for awhile) and who lives with a family full of airbenders. There were probably tons of White Lotus guys and Air Acolytes around her all the time who'd have given their left nuts to get some of that sweet, sweet airbending action.

The part that seems slightly disingenuous to me is that it took them so long to change their approach, and that the idea didn't come with Asami, probably the only person on the Airship of Love who has ever heard the term "advertising budget." Really, they need to sell it not as "come join our cult" but rather as "we are willing to train you all the way to bending mastery completely free of charge." Being a bending master of any sort makes you a member of an economic and cultural elite. Then you just hope that the people you train stick around.

>Also, will someone please drown the one recruit (well, apart from
>Bumi) they did get, please. I'll wait. Thanks.

I'm unsure if we're supposed to regard Kai as a little shit or not. If we are, good job!

If we're not, the show isn't doing a great job of that; most people seem to react to him with ambivalence at best. If we're supposed to like him, he really should have been a girl; his behavior would be far more endearing then, much in the way that Toph acting like a thug often was.

(Also, if you want your audience to like someone, having them take advantage of Bolin, the most likable person on your show, isn't a great way to go about it!)

> - I think I like Mako as Korra's ex better than I liked him as
>Korra's utterly unworthy boyfriend, but I still don't like him.
>Bolin's little dance convincing him to come along on the field trip
>was hilarious, but frankly it would've been OK with me if he hadn't
>bothered. (Seeing him get clobbered by a door almost made airbender
>proliferation worth it for a brief moment.)

Jesus, I know, right?

I dislike how the show has been handling Mako a lot more than Mako himself. Mako has never seemed like a bad person to me, just someone the show handles badly, as opposed to, say, Zhao (I picked a villain at random) who was a bad person but was handled extraordinarily well.

But Mako suddenly being deeply, crazily humbled is pretty great. I'd have rather he stayed behind in the city and held down the fort with Lin, but can't have everything.

>On the other hand, I have to admit I would willingly, even happily,
>accept another entire episode of The Legend of Mako: Poorly Trained
>Policeman
(the saddest of Book 2's many sad-Keanu moments) in lieu
>of all the screen time I know that airbender kid is going to get.

As someone who has watched all the way through episode six, I can tell you that Kai isn't going to get a ton of screentime in the front half of the season at least, and that the screen time he does get is mostly directly attached to Korra kicking the shit out of the Dai Li and having a sweet, silky smooth exit from Ba Sing Ce that would make Aang weep with jealousy.

Also, he completely humiliates Mako at least twice. You gotta be on board for some of that, right?

> - An unalloyed positive thing! The Korramobile scene was everything
>I could have wanted out of such a scene, and I require many more like
>it. (N.B. They don't all actually have to take place in the
>Korramobile. I would also accept bridge-of-the-blimp scenes,
>corner-table-at-a-café scenes, and - O almighty Grodd, hear my
>plea! - hot tub scenes.)

You should have stuck around for episode three, in which they literally have a conversation that goes "Should we get the boys for this?" "Nah, fuck it, we don't need'em" and then they take the airship down south and fight the guys from Mad Max by themselves.

Also: oh my god, Asami's bedroom eyes. I think they may rise to the level of "genuine superpower."

> - Bolin remains brilliant.

Y'know, I think I've finally cracked the Bolin code. It took me awhile to figure out why I liked him so much, because aside from cracking wise he didn't really have a lot to do. His nearest analogue in the Gaang was Sokka, only Bolin isn't nearly as complex as Sokka.

Then I figured out that was the whole point.

Bolin is just completely uncomplicated and a genuinely good dude. That's it. There's nothing else there, and there doesn't have to be. Unlike Mako, he's dealt with the various damage the Fabulous Bending Brothers have suffered during their lives in a healthy way.

He's completely free of guile, malice, or subtlety of any sort, and in fact most of his humor stems from the fact that he largely isn't trying to be funny. Sokka knew he was witty and also that he was smart; it's why he was so arrogant all the time. Bolin isn't dumb, but he also doesn't have a filter and wears his heart on his sleeve, which might be annoying if it wasn't such a good heart.

I actually really want to see Bolin spend a lot more time hanging out with Asami. I want to see them restore classic cars together, and for Bolin to actually be really, really bad at it. I want to see her finally give him that makeover he was so enthusiastic about! I want him to totally be her best friend, because Asami really needs a best friend.

(And before you say "Korra's job!" Korra's job is to be Asami's girlfriend. Two different job roles! :)

> Lin Beifong
>remains... rather less than brilliant. Way to remember who your
>friends are, hon. Your mom was a real jerk sometimes, but at least
>she was always able to keep that straight.

.. wait, what? What'd Lin do?

> - Speaking of less-than-brilliant characters, President Raiko! I
>want that weasely little fuck down on his knees begging Korra
>to come back and save his city, and then I want her to not do
>it
until the inhabitants of that city have realized that she isn't
>going to as long as he's still there and taken him out around back of
>the garage, never to be seen again. (Don't worry, sweetie, he's gone
>to live on a farm with lots of other crooked politicians. He's happy
>there!)

Okay, I'm actually gonna offer an extremely limited defense of Raiko.

Actually, wait, no I'm not. First I'm gonna tear into him, because, what the fuck, dude? You are supposed to be shepherding the Republic into a post-autocracy era, where it is no longer ruled by unelected douchebags appointed by foreign powers! You aren't allowed to be mediocre, you have to be Sun Yat-sen!

Even if the Republic has given you near-dictatorial powers (which it really shouldn't have, because the last thing a nation transitioning from colonial status needs is a strong-President system; that's been a colossal failure here in the real world for the most part) your job as a responsible human being is to disavow them at every opportunity! I don't care if you have the power to banish people without due process, the only moral response to having that power is to never use it. You know who else loved to banish people? Fire Lord Azula! And also her dad! You're in real exalted company there, buddy!

And if you're gonna banish people, banish them for something legitimate. Not for dealing with a jumper! Were you off your meds or something, jerkface? Oh, and I can't believe you sandbagged Korra! You heard she was trying some experimental vine trick and you brought the press? Dick move.

Okay. Whew.

... I actually spent a lot more words on that than I was planning.

Oh, right. Some sort of qualified defense.

I kinda feel like if I were in Raiko's position, I'd be sort of pissed off with Korra as well. The first time they ever met, she asked him to start a war half a world away on her behalf, at a time when he was trying to hold together a nation that had just had a civil war. Then when he demurred, she got angry and yelled at him, and then tried to steal his navy and suborn parts of his officer corps. Then some spiritual bullshit happened, his city gets half-destroyed in a really goddamn weird kaiju fight, and now spirits are moving in and she can't fix it?

I'd be put out. Maybe I'd be less put out if I knew the level of bullshit Korra had been dealing with in her own life, but from Raiko's perspective Korra is nothing but trouble. And, well, the world doesn't revolve around her.

> - The White Lotus continue to be both jerkbags and
>ineffectual. This is unacceptable. I will only put up with one of
>the two in any ostensibly-good-guy organization. I am frankly OK with
>it at this point if the Legion of Doom manage to kill them all.

Okay, this one I'm going to mount a much sterner defense on. The White Lotus don't seem to be all that jerky here. I mean, yeah, that group of guards was pretty snide to Zaheer. Zaheer tried to kidnap and/or murder a four-year-old. A four-year-old Korra. He's lucky he's in solitary and not dead.

As far as being ineffectual... ehhhh. These guys are straight-up supervillains. They're allowed to carve their way through regular mooks with ease, even supposedly elite mooks.

It's like... okay. I'm reasonably certain that in UF, Big Fire has had it's share of lopsided wins, right? There have probably been times where Shockwave Alberto decides he really wants this shiny new piece of military hardware the Salusians are developing, and single-handedly walks into a research base guarded by Royal Marines and just murders the lot of them and takes what he wants. That doesn't mean the Royal Marines suck. It means they were trying to fight Shockwave Alberto and that was just not going to work out well without your own superhuman on-side.

On the flip side of that, Big Fire's Black Hoods and Q-bosses are also probably at least minimally competent. The fact that Geoff Depew spent a few years eating them alive didn't mean they were total losers, it meant Geoff is The Punisher and you're not going to take him out when he kicks in your door.

EarthForce also doesn't usually suck, right? Neither does the Psi Corps. The fact that they've repeatedly gotten their asses kicked by teenagers they've had every advantage over, on the ground and in space, doesn't mean they're bad at their jobs. It means they keep trying to fight superheroes and failing at it hard because that's what happens.

So I'm okay with these guys kicking the shit out of their captors. It's a bit "the new guy beats up Worf and/or Logan to prove how tough he is" but it's not an enormous issue. It might have worked better if at least the non-Zaheer guys had been guarded by non-Lotus guys, though. I sort of miss seeing dudes in Fire Nation armor get beaten up by an airbender.

> - Speaking of which, the Legion of Doom. What? I mean, they're
>better villains than the Equalists, but only by dint of the fact that
>the Equalists were so lame. I guess Korra's just never going to have
>a villain that can compete with the entire Fire Nation in terms
>of gravitas.

I really like Zaheer so far. He impressed me more in five minutes than Amon ever did, possibly because Amon was a Scooby-Do villain and Zaheer is an actual, terrifying religious zealot.

Also, they got Grey DeLisle voicing an armless waterbender. That's so crazy it just might work.

> - I dig the Airship of Love (I think I'll start referring to it as
>the George and Vulture, because it's almost exactly what I was
>envisioning for the UF Hellfire Club's pleasure zeppelin), but wasn't
>Asami dead broke like last week? Even Tony Stark didn't
>recover that fast the time he lost Stark International. Damn, girl.

Asami got a whole shit-ton of money from Varrick. When he bought a lot of Future Industries? I can't see her having given that back to him.

>Korra herself, in these two episodes, is also weirdly uneven,
>much like the show. She is occasionally brilliant (the scene on the
>Kyoshi Bridge, for instance, although she does appear to have either
>forgotten that she could, in fact, help that guy not be an
>airbender any more, or chose to bullshit him about it for some
>reason)...

Can Korra strip someones bending away?

We know she can undo what Amon was doing to people, but Amon was just doing some fancy chi-blocking and not actual psychic surgery the way Aang could do. And that psychic surgery was legit dangerous and could get the person doing it killed, and Korra doesn't have Aang on tap anymore.

Also, she was trying to talk down a jumper. While I'm sure Korra hasn't been formally trained in doing that, I'm not sure making big promises about being able to fuck with his soul would have been a great idea. Plus, she knew Tenzin wanted to recruit the dude.

>and then she suddenly isn't any more, and we're back to the
>old standbys like the "vine removal mayhem" scene, the "whining about
>wisdom" scene, and the "I don't get it, why didn't beating that guy up
>get him on our side?" scene. It feels like the writers know she's
>trying to grow, and sometimes their attention wanders and she gets
>away with it a little, but then they consciously set her back for some
>inexplicable reason.

Eh. Aang had the same thing going on, where he'd flip back and forth between "this kid is really wise for a twelve-year-old" and "wow, you are the most passive-aggressive brat in the universe."

-Merc
Keep Rat


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Gryphonadmin
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14287 posts
Jun-29-14, 01:27 AM (EDT)
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2. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #1
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jun-29-14 AT 01:31 AM (EDT)
 
>> - As I noted when it was released as a promotional clip, the first
>>scene with the vines made me facepalm. Korra and Tenzin doing the
>>Korra-and-Tenzin thing, as they have since Day 1; she gets frustrated
>>and stomps off, he pets her patronizingly on the head. Really, guys,
>>we're still doing this?
>
>... wait, what?
>
>Tenzin is kind of Korra's mentor. He never patronizes her, except

... almost every time he speaks to her. Come on, watch that clip again and check his tone of voice when he says, "You'll figure it out."

>Hmm. Is it weird that I'm incredibly enthusiastic about the airbender
>proliferation in general, but am actually really ticked off about it
>applying to Bumi in particular?

The first part's a bit weird; the second, not so much.

>Also: oh my god, Asami's bedroom eyes. I think they may rise to the
>level of "genuine superpower."

"All 12 seasons of Lovebender? Is somebody lonely?"

>> Lin Beifong
>>remains... rather less than brilliant. Way to remember who your
>>friends are, hon. Your mom was a real jerk sometimes, but at least
>>she was always able to keep that straight.
>
>.. wait, what? What'd Lin do?

Well, most prominently, she stood there doing the square root of fuckall while President Fuckstick repeatedly exceeded his authority, with that growly "I agree with everything the authority figure is saying" face on.

>Okay, I'm actually gonna offer an extremely limited defense of Raiko.

Just for the record, there is no defense for that guy. Seriously, none. "He's poorly informed as to what is actually going on" is a further indictment of his competence, not a defense. If he doesn't know what's happening and why, he should; it's part of his job. In summary, fuck him.

>Okay, this one I'm going to mount a much sterner defense on. The White
>Lotus don't seem to be all that jerky here. I mean, yeah, that group
>of guards was pretty snide to Zaheer. Zaheer tried to kidnap and/or
>murder a four-year-old.

Oh, I don't specifically care that they were jerks to him. It's that they're always jerks. If you're supposed to be the good guys, you can either be jerks or you can be incompetent. Both doesn't get a pass from me.

>He's lucky he's in solitary and not dead.

Not that lucky. Historically, almost everyone in the Avatar universe who has needed to be dead hasn't been.

>Also, they got Grey DeLisle voicing an armless waterbender. That's so
>crazy it just might work.

Or... not.

>Asami got a whole shit-ton of money from Varrick. When he bought a lot
>of Future Industries? I can't see her having given that back to
>him.

To him, no, given the circumstances, but on the other hand, if she actually got the company back, one expects the judicial system would have expected the money she got for it to go somewhere else. Just because the dude's a felon doesn't mean she gets to get back what she sold him and keep the money he paid for it.

>It feels like the writers know she's
>>trying to grow, and sometimes their attention wanders and she gets
>>away with it a little, but then they consciously set her back for some
>>inexplicable reason.
>
>Eh. Aang had the same thing going on, where he'd flip back and forth
>between "this kid is really wise for a twelve-year-old" and "wow, you
>are the most passive-aggressive brat in the universe."

Well, yes, but Aang. Was. Twelve.

And a bit of an idiot. And on a much kiddier show. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
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3. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #2
 
  
>>Tenzin is kind of Korra's mentor. He never patronizes her, except
>
>... almost every time he speaks to her. Come on, watch that clip
>again and check his tone of voice when he says, "You'll figure it
>out."

Honestly? I got the impression Tenzin genuinely believes Korra is gonna figure her shit out. Tenzin believes in Korra! Just, like, in general. At worst, I'd concede that he's really bad at expressing this belief, but Tenzin is a deeply, painfully awkward person in general.

(I actually believe, and I think the series bears me out on this one, that Tenzin is perpetually terrified that people will discover he's a bit of a fraud. The irony being, of course, that everyone in the whole world is scared of that all the time.)

>>.. wait, what? What'd Lin do?
>
>Well, most prominently, she stood there doing the square root of
>fuckall while President Fuckstick repeatedly exceeded his authority,
>with that growly "I agree with everything the authority figure is
>saying" face on.

The face is kinda Lin's default expression.

I'm not sure Raiko actually exceeded his authority at any point here, tho. It seems like Raiko has way more authority than is sane to vest in one person, but that's different from exceeding it. In which case, not really her job to undercut him, although I suppose you could argue that Raiko is doing such a poor job she should resign.

Lin did interject to save Raiko and Korra's collective asses when they were about to have a knock-down drag-out argument in public, in front of the press. There's just... that wasn't going to go anywhere good if allowed to continue, regardless of who was right. Imagine if Churchill and Atlee, or Harry Truman and Bob Taft, or LBJ and Hubert Humphrey had been about to get into a public screaming match with each other with a million cameras and microphones pointed at them. Their aides would have physically manhandled them apart so fast it isn't even funny. Lin stepped up there.

>>Okay, I'm actually gonna offer an extremely limited defense of Raiko.
>
>Just for the record, there is no defense for that guy. Seriously,
>none. "He's poorly informed as to what is actually going on" is a
>further indictment of his competence, not a defense.

I don't think it is entirely reasonable for Raiko to be fully up to date on Korra's whole personal... situation. I mean, there's plenty else to indict the guy for.

I dunno. It might just be because I was hoping Raiko would be a bit more complex than what we're getting.

>>Okay, this one I'm going to mount a much sterner defense on. The White
>>Lotus don't seem to be all that jerky here. I mean, yeah, that group
>>of guards was pretty snide to Zaheer. Zaheer tried to kidnap and/or
>>murder a four-year-old.
>
>Oh, I don't specifically care that they were jerks to him.
>It's that they're always jerks. If you're supposed to be the
>good guys, you can either be jerks or you can be incompetent.
>Both doesn't get a pass from me.

Fair enough. I do admit that the organization seems to have really, really gone downhill. To a certain extent that was inevitable; it's ambit is much wider than it once was. But you'd expect the Elder Lotus' to still be men like Piandao.

>>Asami got a whole shit-ton of money from Varrick. When he bought a lot
>>of Future Industries? I can't see her having given that back to
>>him.
>
>To him, no, given the circumstances, but on the other hand, if she
>actually got the company back, one expects the judicial system would
>have expected the money she got for it to go somewhere else.
>Just because the dude's a felon doesn't mean she gets to get back what
>she sold him and keep the money he paid for it.

I would submit that one should never be surprised at the kind of financial bullshit that the entire idea of corporate personhood lets you get away with when it comes to moving cash around. :)

(More seriously, it seems like Raiko actually seized Varrick's interest in FI and then simply awarded it directly to Asami. I don't speak spanish, so I'm not 100% on that.)

>>Eh. Aang had the same thing going on, where he'd flip back and forth
>>between "this kid is really wise for a twelve-year-old" and "wow, you
>>are the most passive-aggressive brat in the universe."
>
>Well, yes, but Aang. Was. Twelve.
>
>And a bit of an idiot. And on a much kiddier show.
>:)

You have a much, much higher opinion of teenagers than I do, I'll say that. :) From my perspective, Korra having her shit together to the extent that she does is truly, incredibly remarkable. It's her being as awesome as she is that's the outlier, not her incredible insecurities.

Or maybe I just hung out with the wrong crowd at that age. From what I remember these days, none of us knew what the fuck we were doing and we were alternately really depressed and really pissed off about that.

-Merc
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Gryphonadmin
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4. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #3
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jun-29-14 AT 03:05 AM (EDT)
 
>Honestly? I got the impression Tenzin genuinely believes Korra
>is gonna figure her shit out. Tenzin believes in Korra! Just, like, in
>general. At worst, I'd concede that he's really bad at expressing this
>belief, but Tenzin is a deeply, painfully awkward person in general.

Maybe. He always sounds to me like he's just barely not rolling his eyes when he makes any response to any expression of frustration or doubt that comes out of her, and since that usually seems like basically all she does in his presence (which is its own Tiresome Thing), that's basically all the time.

>(I actually believe, and I think the series bears me out on this one,
>that Tenzin is perpetually terrified that people will discover he's a
>bit of a fraud. The irony being, of course, that everyone in the whole
>world is scared of that all the time.)

I am beginning to suspect that the newtype airbenders of the second century would be a lot better off if none of Aang's children had been airbenders and the Old Air Nomad Way had died out. Without the overarching tie of their being descendants of a real Air Nomad (which was a prereq for my own conception of the third-century Air Commonwealth in UF before this shit hit the fan), I can't see a re-creation of the old Air Nation in the modern age working. Sure, the alternative would be messy for a generation or two while they got their new-version shit together, but then they'd be, you know, functional parts of society, as opposed to strange, self-marginalizing anachronisms trying to live by the precepts of a culture that they have no actual thing to do with apart from that one physical ability.

I stand by my earlier assertion that no one (apart from Tenzin, who took after Aang and is therefore not very bright) should have been surprised that it's proving difficult to generate enthusiasm among modern persons for joining the Society for Uncreative Anachronism. It's like Mennonites deciding to start recruiting 21st-century muggles based solely on their ability to grow beards. It's never going to work, and no reasonable person ought to have expected that it would.

>Lin did interject to save Raiko and Korra's collective asses when they
>were about to have a knock-down drag-out argument in public, in
>front of the press
.

Yeah, see, that's what I'm talking about. I have a completely different view of that scene, to wit: Korra was winning. For once. And then Lin cockblocked her. Again.

>There's just... that wasn't going to go
>anywhere good if allowed to continue, regardless of who was right.

Sure it was. It was going to go to the place where Korra won an argument for once and the press were there to report on it.

Well, OK, no, because this is The Legend of Korra, and even Korra winning an argument with righteous fury somehow will always manage to get spun into Korra seeming childish and stupid. Right. Sorry. I forgot where I was for a second. You're completely right about that.

>Imagine if Churchill and Atlee... had been about to get into a public
>screaming match with each other with a million cameras and microphones pointed
>at them.

Have you ever read Hansard? That happened all the time. Parliament is way better than Congress. :)

>I don't think it is entirely reasonable for Raiko to be fully up to
>date on Korra's whole personal... situation. I mean, there's plenty
>else to indict the guy for.

I thought Korra had that pretty well surrounded before Lin got in her way.
Never mind that she just got out of prison after serving 13 years for the crime of being prematurely awesome. It's a matter of fairly public record that her own uncle conquered her country and pretty near killed her before merging with Hedorah the Smog Monster and trying to eat her adopted (and unappreciative, and frankly unworthy) hometown, at which point she had to disintegrate his ass for the Public Good. And that, in retrospect, it's obvious that they all should have listened to her and gone down there with proper armies and mullered his ass before he had the chance to do it. That was all in the papers, and I submit that it is the job of a person in Fuckstick's position to have read and understood them.

(People In Authority being shown that they should have listened to someone, and then turning around and not listening to that someone again the next time so that the Plot Will Advance, gets on my tits. It's my biggest beef with the Mass Effect games (apart from the end of the third one) and the reason why I find the DreamWorks Dragons of Berk TV shows a lot less appealing than the movies, and hey, look, it's Raiko's whole entire thing!)

Anyway. I don't think I'm expecting too much of Korra at seventeen if I just wish they'd let her be as great as Katara was at fourteen. I mean, that's a high bar, but it's not unreasonable. And what's really frustrating me, if I haven't gotten it across, is that I believe she would be if they just let her get on with it and stopped deliberately tripping her (looking at YOU, second vines scene). I don't think she's really anything like as miserably hapless as they're constantly forcing her to be. Particularly after last season's mostly-red scorecard, it's starting to reek of authorial interference for the sake of artificially raising the stakes, and that just fucks with me.

--G.
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Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
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Jun-29-14, 04:39 PM (EDT)
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5. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #4
 
  
>Maybe. He always sounds to me like he's just barely not rolling his
>eyes when he makes any response to any expression of frustration or
>doubt that comes out of her, and since that usually seems like
>basically all she does in his presence (which is its own Tiresome
>Thing), that's basically all the time.

You are absolutely right that Tenzin and Korra should have more interaction than just "Korra unloads in his general direction." That's yet another symptom of the writers eyes being bigger than their stomachs when it comes time to pace out a season.

But, I mean... really, what's the more logical scenario here? That Tenzin, who we're clearly meant to like and sympathize with, is being written as secretly holding Korra in contempt and barely restraining loud sighs and eye-rolls every time she comes to him for advice? Or that, at absolute worst, JK Simmons line readings aren't quite doing it for you?

>I am beginning to suspect that the newtype airbenders of the second
>century would be a lot better off if none of Aang's children had been
>airbenders and the Old Air Nomad Way had died out. Without the
>overarching tie of their being descendants of a real Air Nomad

You're probably right about this. Frankly, I was never all that thrilled with the implication of bending needing to descend through the bloodline anyway (which is part of why I like the Element of Freedom deciding "no, screw that, I can go anywhere!") and I would have liked it if, say, Aang had spent his life training up guys like Teo and Ty Lee or whoever to inherit the wind.

Really, even Tenzin doesn't live like a "real" Air Nomad. Their society has, functionally speaking, been defunct since the genocide. Aang was a twelve-year-old, not a cultural anthropologist. This is actually something that comes up in "The Rift", where he tries to show the first Air Acolytes the sacred rituals of his people and realizes he has absolutely no idea of the content and meaning behind them.

Don't get me wrong, re-establishing the air temples was probably not a bad idea. The Fire Sages get along okay in their own temples, and I imagine the Earth Kingdom and Water Tribes have their own monk/shaman equivalents.

>(which
>was a prereq for my own conception of the third-century Air
>Commonwealth in UF before this shit hit the fan),

Tangent: it isn't entirely problematic for you to just stick with that, you know. There have been plenty of people writing in this universe, or a reasonable facsimile thereof, who've been in the same boat. You know how many people wrote their own "Book 3: Fire" in the year-long gap between seasons and two and through? Or hell, how many people wrote their own "Book 4: Air" after the series ended, or took up their pens in the eight-month gap between "Day of Black Sun" and the back half of Book 3?

A bunch, that's how many. Hell, most of the definitive Azula fanfics have been well and truly destroyed by canon, and lets be honest here, that's almost certainly going to happen to Desolation Angel at some point.

So if you just go "fuck it, I'm going to work Lhakpa's storyline to its logical conclusion, screw you random non-Aang-descended airbenders" you'll hardly be in bad company.

(Although I do feel that Lhakpa's arc is easily salvaged by making it less "fuck living like an Air Nomad just because I'm an airbender" and more "fuck the expectations leveled on me as being a Real Live Descendant of Aang, I'm not defined by my bloodline.")

>I stand by my earlier assertion that no one (apart from Tenzin, who
>took after Aang and is therefore not very bright) should have been
>surprised that it's proving difficult to generate enthusiasm among
>modern persons for joining the Society for Uncreative Anachronism.

Well, I stand by my own assertion that Korra in particular would have been just as confident as Tenzin initially was, because she's all about Embracing Your Destiny. In fact, she would probably envy these guys, as they have a pretty straightforward one compared to her unbelievably muddled one.

I think the show bears me out on this. Look at how absolutely enraged she got at Basement Dweller, for being all "Whatever. You don't gotta do anything you don't want." That wasn't just frustration at another recruit not signing on, that was personal offense; the guy was basically calling her a total idiot for living her life the way she has.

You're right that the others would probably have figured this would happen. I imagine some fairly signficant looks passed between Bolin, Asami, and Bumi. (Notice how Bumi has been real, real silent about restructuring his life to be exactly like his kid brothers?)

>Yeah, see, that's what I'm talking about. I have a completely
>different view of that scene, to wit: Korra was winning. For
>once. And then Lin cockblocked her. Again.

... maybe you shouldn't view every single scene from a standpoint of whether or not Korra is "winning" it.

>>There's just... that wasn't going to go
>>anywhere good if allowed to continue, regardless of who was right.
>
>Sure it was. It was going to go to the place where Korra won an
>argument for once
and the press were there to report on it.

Except that wouldn't have been the story. The story would have been "President and Avatar at each others throats, city in chaos."

>>Imagine if Churchill and Atlee... had been about to get into a public
>>screaming match with each other with a million cameras and microphones pointed
>>at them.
>
>Have you ever read Hansard? That happened all the time.
> Parliament is way better than Congress. :)

I am not the anglophile you are, but my impression of Parliament has always been that at least half of what occurs there is regarded as some sort of weird national performance art, sort of Cirque du Soleil with Robert's Rules of Order. :) I might be wrong about that tho.

Regardless, I think my point stands; if Churchill and Atlee has given a joint presser during the war, and suddenly Atlee undercuts Churchill right there in public, and Churchill got right up in his face and was all "It's on, you fancy motherfucker", their aides would have shut that shit down hard. And they'd both probably have been grateful for it.

(Note that I do not mean to imply in any way that Raiko is Clement Atlee's political equal. Because he is not.)

>Anyway. I don't think I'm expecting too much of Korra at seventeen if
>I just wish they'd let her be as great as Katara was at
>fourteen. I mean, that's a high bar, but it's not
>unreasonable. And what's really frustrating me, if I haven't
>gotten it across, is that I believe she would be if they just
>let her get on with it and stopped deliberately tripping her (looking
>at YOU, second vines scene).

I'm usually prepared to defend Korra trying something and failing at it, but the second vines scene crossed the line for me not because her plan didn't work, but because it actively made things worse.

>I don't think she's really anything like
>as miserably hapless as they're constantly forcing her to be.
>Particularly after last season's mostly-red scorecard, it's starting
>to reek of authorial interference for the sake of artificially
>raising the stakes, and that just fucks with me.

Well, I mean... you're right that Korra's character arc has been supremely badly structured. I'm just not sure I'd put it in terms of wins and losses the way you would. Aang, frankly, doesn't have that great a win/loss record either; his show just disguised it better. The kid was constantly trying stuff and failing abjectly at it. But I think of it in terms of them either not having her learn as quickly as she really, really should (Korra is nothing if not self-reflective) or, if their intent is to portray her as someone who is going through life at the School of Hard Knocks, they're executing that really badly.

My point is I don't really have a problem with Korra just not winning a whole lot. It's possible to tell interesting stories about someone who gets beat down a lot and then only comes through with a squeaker victory at the end! I just think, if that's what they're aiming at with Korra, they're not doing it real well, and honestly... I kinda doubt that's what they're aiming at.

I get the feeling that we're actually meant to think Korra has been achieving superlative triumphs. The end of Season 1 is particularly egregious in this regard; it's structured, cinematically speaking, the way you structure a story in which the protagonist just achieved an enormous win, rather than one in which she backed into victory through luck and the incompetence of others and then had Deus ex Aang kiss her hurts all better.

Come to think of it, that's the root of my issues with Mako as well. The show very clearly was saying "Look at Mako and Korra! Aren't they just meant to be?" And, well, NO, show. Mako is trying to cheat on his totally awesome girlfriend and Korra is kind of sort of going along with it.

That's just poor writing.

-Merc
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Gryphonadmin
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6. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #5
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jun-29-14 AT 05:17 PM (EDT)
 
>>(which
>>was a prereq for my own conception of the third-century Air
>>Commonwealth in UF before this shit hit the fan),
>
>Tangent: it isn't entirely problematic for you to just stick with
>that, you know.

Counter-tangent: Oh ho hooo, you have no idea what you are talking about with that statement. :)

>A bunch, that's how many. Hell, most of the definitive Azula fanfics
>have been well and truly destroyed by canon, and lets be honest here,
>that's almost certainly going to happen to Desolation Angel at
>some point.

You think? I'd be pretty surprised if we ever saw her on TV again, and frankly I don't think even Phil gives a damn about what the comics have to say about her any more after The Search. :)

>(Although I do feel that Lhakpa's arc is easily salvaged by making it
>less "fuck living like an Air Nomad just because I'm an airbender" and
>more "fuck the expectations leveled on me as being a Real Live
>Descendant of Aang, I'm not defined by my bloodline.")

You're not alone in that regard. In fact, I agree with the core of that statement insofar as it goes, with or without the context of Airbender Proliferation. However, it may or may not actually be that simple. I'm still working on it.

>I think the show bears me out on this. Look at how absolutely enraged
>she got at Basement Dweller, for being all "Whatever. You don't gotta
>do anything you don't want."

Keep in mind that, since we've both just spent the last two days agreeing that the show is badly written, you're not really doing anything to persuade me by pointing out - rightly! - that The Show Bears You Out On That. :)

>That wasn't just frustration at another
>recruit not signing on, that was personal offense; the guy was
>basically calling her a total idiot for living her life the way she
>has.

... he's not wrong.

>... maybe you shouldn't view every single scene from a standpoint of
>whether or not Korra is "winning" it.

That'd be dope, if the show didn't make it virtually impossible to view them in any other way, by placing such constant, massive, crushing emphasis on how she's always losing. Trying to perceive it otherwise, at least for me, is like trying to ignore the cowbell in "Honky Tonk Women".

>>Sure it was. It was going to go to the place where Korra won an
>>argument for once
and the press were there to report on it.
>
>Except that wouldn't have been the story. The story would have been
>"President and Avatar at each others throats, city in chaos."

I notice you cut the part where I did acknowledge that this is actually what would have happened. :)

>Regardless, I think my point stands; if Churchill and Atlee has given
>a joint presser during the war, and suddenly Atlee undercuts Churchill
>right there in public, and Churchill got right up in his face and was
>all "It's on, you fancy motherfucker"

Well, yes, but see, my point is that if that had ever happened, it would have been better than actual reality, and so I want that kind of stuff to happen in what is supposed to be an epic fantasy adventure, because it's epic fantasy adventure stuff, not boring, frustrating realpolitik bullshit. Real life is already full of that. I don't need more of it in my cartoons. Sorry if I didn't articulate that clearly enough before. :)

>(Note that I do not mean to imply in any way that Raiko is Clement
>Atlee's political equal. Because he is not.)

Raiko isn't fucking Neville Chamberlain's political equal. At least Chamberlain (however stupidly) meant well, was sincerely appalled when it all went totally wrong, and literally worked himself to death trying to do what little he could toward putting right the mess he had made after he was out of power. I'm not even convinced Raiko really thinks he's Doing The Right Thing rather than just waving his cock and screaming at anyone who he thinks is fronting on him, like an enraged rhesus monkey.

>I'm usually prepared to defend Korra trying something and failing at
>it, but the second vines scene crossed the line for me not because her
>plan didn't work, but because it actively made things worse.

Exactly.

>Well, I mean... you're right that Korra's character arc has been
>supremely badly structured. I'm just not sure I'd put it in terms of
>wins and losses the way you would.

FFS, man, that's an illustrative example, not the entire body of my objection.

>But I
>think of it in terms of them either not having her learn as quickly as
>she really, really should (Korra is nothing if not self-reflective)
>or, if their intent is to portray her as someone who is going through
>life at the School of Hard Knocks, they're executing that really
>badly.

Yes.

>I get the feeling that we're actually meant to think Korra has
>been achieving superlative triumphs.

Fuck, I hope not. That would mean the show is even worse than I think it is.

>Come to think of it, that's the root of my issues with Mako as well.
>The show very clearly was saying "Look at Mako and Korra! Aren't they
>just meant to be?"

I have seen it speculated that that happened at the end of Book 1 specifically because someone in a suit said, "Hang on, why isn't the Romance Plot resolved? Kiss goes here, then the happily-ever-after bit is set if this turns out to be the end of the whole show." (They did, after all, not entirely know the show was going any further than that at the time.)

That seems plausible to me, if only because that's how TV almost always works. Which also means that I'm 92% sure they won't be able to go to the end of the series without fixing her up HEA with some dude* - possibly some dude we haven't even met yet, what with the various burnt bridges - and I have already put the team on notice that I do not have a blank on my mental org chart for that.

>That's just poor writing.

You know what, I think we've got this thing entirely battened down with just those four words. Everything else is just quibbling over the trim colors.

And yet I remain. It's like I said last year - it's like being hopelessly in love with a girl whose entire family you cannot stand,** and who all hate you too. :)

--G.
* realistically, because network, much as many of us wish it could be otherwise
** So we sent her to 24th-century New Avalon instead! What'd you think of that?

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
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The Traitor
Member since Feb-24-09
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Jun-29-14, 08:26 PM (EDT)
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9. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #6
 
   Except... no. It's really not just "arguing over the trim colours". It's an important part of this if you're creating what amounts to a fix fic for the entirety of Korra's personal history - which, by giving her achievements she could genuinely be proud of, is exactly what you're doing - because for a fix fic to work, you have to know what bits to fix in the first place.

Something that stuck with me when I read Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality was a line from chapter 7 that said "If you can't criticise, you can't optimise". Just saying "that's just poor writing" is so vague as to be meaningless; you have to actually break down the elements of the show and go over what does and doesn't work with a fine-toothed comb before going through with it. You've got your reasons for hating the shit Korra goes through, fine, I get that, fill your boots. She's been shat on from a great height, partly by
fate and partly by the writers not giving her the same chances that they gave Aang (so, er, entirely by the writers). This is not in dispute. What is, is that that's the only thing wrong, or indeed the only thing with good/interesting elements.

Look, I haven't watched much of the show. I am not as familiar with it as you are. I am, however, familiar with criticism; "that's just poor writing" ain't fuckin' it. It's bad because it sucks, it sucks because it's bad. Hurrah. You don't want realpolitik in your cartoons? Well, hard cheese for you, because you've got it anyway. Look at, for example, the ways Raiko abuses his position, look past the fact that Korra was winning an argument (and at the fact that the Avatar and the leader of Republic City were squabbling like toddlers over the last sweetie in front of the assembled press do you seriously not get why Lin had to step in), look at that and think about how you can make it better. I'd really like to see what you would do to make Raiko work as a good guy in UF. I want to see you convert the startling array of idiots on Korra's side into people who deserve to be on her side. I know you could do it - hell, making the White Lotus into not-morons was proof enough of that - but it's a question of whether or not it's worth the effort.

The answer, for those playing along at home, is yes.

That's what fix fics are supposed to do.

---
"She's old, she's lame, she's barren too, // "She's not worth feed or hay, // "But I'll give her this," - he blew smoke at me - // "She was something in her day." -- Garnet Rogers, Small Victory

FiMFiction.net: we might accept blatant porn involving the cast of My Little Pony but as God is my witness we have standards.

Of course, you'll almost certainly ignore this because it doesn't fit into your preconceived narrative that the good guys have to win because they're the good guys and the villains aren't allowed the remotest semblance of a good idea because villains r bad, but w/e, piece said, I'm out.


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Gryphonadmin
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10. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #9
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jun-29-14 AT 08:43 PM (EDT)
 
>Just saying "that's just poor writing"
>is so vague as to be meaningless; you have to actually break down the
>elements of the show and go over what does and doesn't work

... OK, did I imagine the part where we'd spent the previous half-dozen or so posts doing just that, and the "trim colors" remark was a quip at the end of a summary about Merc and I arriving at a quasi-consensus? Or are you just ignoring it because you'd rather shout at me for some inexplicable reason? The savagery you're displaying here is a bit puzzling, I'm just saying.

>look at that and think about how you can make it
>better.

The thing is, I'm not in a position to make the canon (which is what I am grumbling about here) better in the context of UF, only work with things that are happening after it. (Thirty to 120 years after it, depending on which part of the Legacy/Dìqiú Suite project we're talking about.)

I'm basically the janitor in this scenario, and what you are seeing in the previous posts is me grumbling about the smell of some of the stuff I have to clean up. I'm not in the role of an engineer looking at ways of revamping an underbuilt existing structure. I mean, look, I could DO The Legend of Korra: Actually Legendary Remix, starting from the opening premise of Book 1 Chapter 1 and repairing everything as I go. It's within my powers. It's not that different from what NXE started out as, albeit TLOK:ALR would be a lot less blatantly parodiacal because I'm not 23 any more and my standards have changed. It would, however, be a whole different project.

Do you see how they're different?

>Of course, you'll almost certainly ignore this because it
>doesn't fit into your preconceived narrative that the good guys have
>to win because they're the good guys and the villains aren't allowed
>the remotest semblance of a good idea because villains r bad, but w/e,
>piece said, I'm out.

No, I didn't ignore it, but shit, Traitor, if that's the way you feel, then here's a problem: That "preconceived narrative" is a guiding principle of Undocumented Features. (At least the first part is.) Your tone here indicates that you find it Dramatically or Creatively Inadequate, which really makes me wonder what you've been getting out of the product this whole time.

--G.
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The Traitor
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15. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #10
 
   I get pulp sci-fi out of UF. Which is fine. I love me some pulp. Common People is a great song. I just also like sci-fi where the enemy is also allowed to be smart. To me, it makes the triumph of the heroes feel a bit more satisfying when the villains they're arrayed against are capable of outwitting, say, a heavily-concussed guppy. If nothing else, it's an additional layer of characterisation; these people are criminal masterminds, they're supposed to be good at their jobs, and just because we don't like them doesn't mean they're incompetent. But that's not what you've spent the last twenty years writing, and that's fine.

Hey, fun fact: you've been doing this for roughly the same amount of time that I've been breathing. Feel old, dammit!

Also, no, I didn't miss the rest of the thread, my eyes do still sort of work, but to me it came off as being dismissive of the concept of criticism. I should have looked at it deeper, and for not doing so I apologise, but that sort of thing gets my back up like nobody's business and the red mist did rather descend. I suppose it's better than punching people outside a Wetherspoons, but not by much.

---
"She's old, she's lame, she's barren too, // "She's not worth feed or hay, // "But I'll give her this," - he blew smoke at me - // "She was something in her day." -- Garnet Rogers, Small Victory

FiMFiction.net: we might accept blatant porn involving the cast of My Little Pony but as God is my witness we have standards.


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Mercutio
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16. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #15
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jun-30-14 AT 01:10 AM (EDT)
 
As the junior party here but the other significant contributor to this thread, I'd like to say that if any member of the production team had a problem with literary criticism, I'd have been banned from this forum a looooong time ago. I do two things here; get my nerd on, and gleefully deconstruct everything. I've never been made to feel less than welcome, although I occasionally have been made to feel very, very wrong.

This is not, mind you, to say that I think you're entirely full of it, Traitor. I too have some issues as to how villainy is handled in post-Exile UF, as I generally come out of the school of thought that says one should love ones villains with the same passionate intensity one loves ones heroes. Or, at the very least, should approach the writing of them from the perspective that in their own heads, these vile miscreants are in fact the heroes of their own stories. I may have some things to say about this the next time Akio makes a move. (I am anticipating that to be soon, if for no other reason than I can't see Akio not doing something upon the birth of his brand-new niece.)

But, well... one, there's a time when that's relevant, and I'm not sure right here is it, and two, this is the production team that brought us the Exile. Flawed though it often was in execution, they do understand that sometimes the villains need to get in a clear, unambiguous win, in order to keep things interesting and to make the eventual triumph that much more awesome. They've earned a bit of the benefit of the doubt.

-Merc
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Gryphonadmin
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18. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #15
 
   >Also, no, I didn't miss the rest of the thread, my eyes do still sort
>of work, but to me it came off as being dismissive of the concept of
>criticism. I should have looked at it deeper, and for not doing so I
>apologise, but that sort of thing gets my back up like nobody's
>business and the red mist did rather descend.

The ironic thing is that I am, as a general rule, dismissive of the Concept of Criticism, at least when it's treated like some kind of formal intellectual discipline or social science. Dressing the act of explaining why you did or didn't like something up as a Serious Cerebral Exercise is, with few exceptions, a kind of pretension that I don't have a lot of time for.

On the other hand, in this case I was in fact explaining my reactions to things, not - as you seemed to be taking vehement personal offense to - simply saying they were bad; so it was a bit baffling to suddenly have teeth in my neck about it. Like being arrested for a crime you considered but then didn't commit. :)

--G.
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The Traitor
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19. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #18
 
   >On the other hand, in this case I was in fact explaining my
>reactions to things, not - as you seemed to be taking vehement
>personal offense to - simply saying they were bad; so it was a bit
>baffling to suddenly have teeth in my neck about it. Like being
>arrested for a crime you considered but then didn't commit. :)

Thoughtcrime is a dangerous game, Comrade Hutchins, a dangerous game indeed. =]

But yeah, I read this completely wrong and allowed anger at a completely imaginary target to blind me to what you'd actually said. In the words of the great Jedi sages, "shit be wack, yo."

---
"She's old, she's lame, she's barren too, // "She's not worth feed or hay, // "But I'll give her this," - he blew smoke at me - // "She was something in her day." -- Garnet Rogers, Small Victory

FiMFiction.net: we might accept blatant porn involving the cast of My Little Pony but as God is my witness we have standards.

There is no limit to how much money I would pay to see a Funkotroni version of Yoda. None. At. All.


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SpottedKitty
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Jun-29-14, 06:25 PM (EDT)
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7. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #5
 
   >my impression of Parliament has
>always been that at least half of what occurs there is regarded as
>some sort of weird national performance art, sort of Cirque du
>Soleil
with Robert's Rules of Order. :)

You just gave me a mental image of some of the current crop of inmates doing twirls and poses suspended high above the back benches, wearing skintight glittery spandex. Fortunately I managed to link to a YouTube page of funny cat movies before I lost 2d6 SAN.

(Your description's pretty much spot-on, though...)

--
Unable to save the day: File is read-only.


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Gryphonadmin
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8. "Notes on Chapter 3"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jun-29-14 AT 08:18 PM (EDT)
 
Less comprehensive, because I've only skimmed it as yet. I find that I am actively repelled by the Criminal Kid plot, and not terribly engaged by the airbender plot, the Legion of Doom plot, or the Bros plot, so that basically just leaves Korra and Asami beating down some of the renegade Burger King window guys from Warrior of the Lost World. Which was pretty good, even if they were so obviously doing it in the service of evil (because I guess we didn't see Korra get duped into serving evil enough in Book 2? I got nothin') that eventually even Korra noticed.

Also, the Dai Li? Really? Not even as a secret underground revenge remnant, but still running the joint like nothing happened?

Futurewatch: I'll forgive the shrillness of her parting remarks to the Earth Queen if and only if she backs them up.

Transfictionally: By Mechagodzilla, there had better not be any of that little bastard's DNA in Nyima.

--G.
"I once hired a man with a similar ability to kill the Avatar myself." (pause) "Didn't work."
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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
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Jun-29-14, 08:41 PM (EDT)
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11. "RE: Notes on Chapter 3"
In response to message #8
 
  
>Also, the Dai Li? Really? Not even as a secret underground revenge
>remnant, but still running the joint like nothing happened?

Well, I mean... they seem to have gone legit now. They're answering TO the Queen, not running the joint as their personal fief.

It makes sense that the organization would still be around despite the excesses of their leadership and past members. It isn't like Zuko disbanded the Yu Yan archers or the Imperial Firebenders or the Fire Navy (I'm assuming their airships are part of their navy) despite the tremendous amount of bullshit and/or genocide those guys got up to.

Hell, it isn't like we got rid of the FBI or the CIA despite the criminality and incompetence that riddled both organizations during the middle part of the last century.

>Futurewatch: I'll forgive the shrillness of her parting remarks to the
>Earth Queen if and only if she backs them up.

Let's just say Korra makes it out of Ba Sing Se in a way that would make Aang jealous.

I am aware this is not a high bar to clear since Aang died there and had to be saved by his girlfriend. But she still beats her predecessor!

>"I once hired a man with a similar ability to kill the
>Avatar myself." (pause) "Didn't work."

It's hard to convey the best part of that exchange in text, which is the part where Tonraq side-eyes him during that slightly-to-long-pause. :)

Also too: man, what is it with Zuko and goths? I think Eska is nicer to him than she's been to literally anyone. Whatever it is Zuko had, it's clear he's still got it.

I love that Zuko is still a socially awkward dork. I bet Katara still makes fun of him for it.

-Merc
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Gryphonadmin
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12. "RE: Notes on Chapter 3"
In response to message #11
 
   >Hell, it isn't like we got rid of the FBI or the CIA despite the
>criminality and incompetence that riddled both organizations during
>the middle part of the last century.

We would have if they'd helped a Soviet general stage a coup in Washington in the '60s.

>Let's just say Korra makes it out of Ba Sing Se in a way that would
>make Aang jealous.
>
>I am aware this is not a high bar to clear

I was gonna say.

>I love that Zuko is still a socially awkward dork. I bet Katara still
>makes fun of him for it.

I'd like to see them get some screen time together. I say that as someone who had no dog whatever in the ATLA shipper fights. I'd just like it.

--G.
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Mercutio
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13. "RE: Notes on Chapter 3"
In response to message #12
 
  
>>I love that Zuko is still a socially awkward dork. I bet Katara still
>>makes fun of him for it.
>
>I'd like to see them get some screen time together. I say that as
>someone who had no dog whatever in the ATLA shipper fights. I'd just
>like it.

I keep waffling back and forth between if I want to see that, or Korra and Zuko, more.

In my head, Korra calls Zuko 'Uncle Fire Lord' and every time she sees him she makes him chase her around a little bit, try to capture her. :)

-Merc
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Gryphonadmin
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14. "RE: Notes on Chapter 3"
In response to message #13
 
   >In my head, Korra calls Zuko 'Uncle Fire Lord' and every time she sees
>him she makes him chase her around a little bit, try to capture her.
>:)

His honor demands it.

--G.
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Gryphonadmin
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17. "Also:"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jun-30-14 AT 12:43 PM (EDT)
 
Is it just me, or is Zuko's dragon a drama queen?

"Behold... "

(dramatic pause)

"... my wings!"

(dramatic pause)

"I shall now fly away."

--G.
Completely something Nall would do.
-><-
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twipper
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Jul-01-14, 10:12 AM (EDT)
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20. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #0
 
   The Daily Beast has decided to pimp TLOK as a replacement for Game of Thrones in your daily viewing schedule.

Brian


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Nova Floresca
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21. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #20
 
   And yet it's still not really a ringing endorsement of TLOK, more like "hey, for a cartoon, ATLA was really damn good, you should watch it. And they made a sequel, too!" Being compared to Game of Thrones doesn't exactly raise the hopes of Korra getting a happy, or even clean ending either.

"This is probably a stupid question, but . . ."


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Gryphonadmin
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22. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #20
 
   >The Daily Beast has decided to pimp TLOK
>as a replacement for Game of Thrones in your daily viewing schedule.

I know virtually nothing about Game of Thrones, but what little I've picked up through cultural osmosis leads me to think that's not a good thing.

--G.
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Mercutio
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23. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #22
 
  
>I know virtually nothing about Game of Thrones,

I am someone who eats, drinks, and breathes Game of Thrones, and please don't take this the wrong way, but you are the last person in the world I would recommend it to, Ben. It's super, super good, but it isn't the kind of entertainment you go for.

>but what little
>I've picked up through cultural osmosis leads me to think that's not a
>good thing.

In the context of that specifically linked article, it is, actually. It basically boils down to them saying "if you're one of the millions of people who fell in love with the powerful, compelling characters in a story of epic scope, here's another show that's for you while GoT is off the air for a year!"

I mean, they may be overselling LoK, especially in your eyes, but in that context the comparison is a good thing. It would be bad if they were saying "if there just plain aren't going to be enough brutal deaths and on-screen rapes for you until next spring, LoK has got you covered!"

(Honestly, it's a bit weird though. If they want to recommend something to people who want more things in the style of Game of Thrones, Vikings is right there begging for some love.)

-Merc
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Gryphonadmin
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24. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #23
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jul-02-14 AT 00:31 AM (EDT)
 
>"if there just plain aren't going to be enough brutal
>deaths and on-screen rapes for you until next spring, LoK has got you
>covered!"

Heh, well, OK, there's that.

(Although as I believe I have previously observed, if you scratch the paint even a tiny bit, the A-arc of Book 1 is astonishingly rapey. I think that's the main reason I hated it so. My flesh just crawls at the subtext there. On Nickelodeon, for fuck's sake.)

It was like they realized it, too, and deliberately set out to lampshade it with the "attention hentai fan artists: start your engines" scene early in Book 2.

--G.
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TheOtherSean
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Jul-02-14, 00:39 AM (EDT)
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25. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #22
 
   >>The Daily Beast has decided to pimp TLOK
>>as a replacement for Game of Thrones in your daily viewing schedule.
>
>I know virtually nothing about Game of Thrones, but what little
>I've picked up through cultural osmosis leads me to think that's not a
>good thing.
>
>--G.

I've not watched Game of Thrones but have read the first 4 of the novels. The good guys (or even the characters you find yourself identifying with) don't usually end up winning in the end. Those you identify with often end up in bad situations with little hope Betrayals and monstrous behavior is often the path to power and success. Sometimes it can be confusing who the good guys and the bad guys are. Though righteous behavior often goes unrewarded or results in woe, villainy sometimes leads to downfall of the villains.

It is less depressing than Steve Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen, at least. Though there are many shades of gray to Game of Thrones, good and evil are a bit more sharply defined in it, characters are a bit easier to identify with, villains do sometimes pay for their crimes, and sometimes good does win, at least now and then.

--
The Other Sean - Don't accept substitutes!
Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes?


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Gryphonadmin
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26. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #25
 
   >I've not watched Game of Thrones but have read the first 4 of
>the novels. The good guys (or even the characters you find yourself
>identifying with) don't usually end up winning in the end. Those you
>identify with often end up in bad situations with little hope
>Betrayals and monstrous behavior is often the path to power and
>success. Sometimes it can be confusing who the good guys and the bad
>guys are. Though righteous behavior often goes unrewarded or results
>in woe, villainy sometimes leads to downfall of the villains.

Yep, as I suspected: Sounds perfectly revolting.

--G.
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twipper
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Jul-02-14, 09:21 AM (EDT)
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29. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #26
 
   I actually made it through 2 1/2 books of A Song of Fire and Ice before my brain revolted and threatened to rupture a vessel if I didn't stop.

But in a partial defense of Game of Thrones, the show is MECHANICALLY brilliant in its production. And while the story/plot leaves you needing a scalding hot shower, it is performed superbly by the actors.

Amusingly, my sense of realism tends to kick in at times when the scriptwriters generally wouldn't expect. I've only seen maybe 5 episodes total, all while in hotel rooms traveling for work. I caught one last year where the northern redhead snuck off with Jon Snow for a little wink wink nudge nudge in a hot springs.

The rather attractive young lady dropped her furs and my brain immediately spun out the following: Wait. These people have been on the run for weeks across the frozen north. They've been fighting. They're half starved. And she looks just like she left a Brazilian spa five minutes after a full body wax? Nope.

Brian


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Gryphonadmin
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30. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #29
 
   >But in a partial defense of Game of Thrones, the show is MECHANICALLY
>brilliant in its production.

"It's like being beaten to death with an IKEA chair. It hurts? But you've got to admire the craftsmanship."

- English comedian Bill Bailey, in re Mamma Mia! (the ABBA musical)

--G.
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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
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Jul-06-14, 02:42 AM (EDT)
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31. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #26
 
  
>Yep, as I suspected: Sounds perfectly revolting.

Well, it isn't revolting, at least, not in the way something like Birth of a Nation is. It's just... well, it's a tragedy. More than that, it's a tragedy written using the structure and tropes of epic fantasy combined with the structure and tropes of the insane dynastic wars of Europe during the High Middle Ages.

Now, to some people (me) that's gonna be utterly riveting. Other people are not going to want to sign up for that sort of emotional wringer.

It's worth noting that the structure of the narrative itself is studiously neutral. The books are written third-person limited, which means a long string of unreliable narrators who are wrapped up in their own internal value systems, logic, and rationales. It's a neat trick; it lets the author convey factual information to the readers wrapped in a strong emotional payload (because if you don't do that, what you have is a very dry history book, not a story) but doesn't assign authorial or narrative imprimatur or judgment to that information; the reader has to come up with that themselves.

It may or may not have quite succeeded; George Martin is on record as sometimes being a little afraid he's glamorized evil too much, a common problem in writers who set out to create complex villains.

-Merc
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junipermoderator
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32. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #31
 
   >
>>Yep, as I suspected: Sounds perfectly revolting.
>
>Well, it isn't revolting, at least, not in the way something like
>Birth of a Nation is. It's just... well, it's a tragedy. More
>than that, it's a tragedy written using the structure and tropes of
>epic fantasy combined with the structure and tropes of the insane
>dynastic wars of Europe during the High Middle Ages.

<snip>

OK, so, the War of the Roses as epic high fantasy. Interesting - this is the first time I've seen the series described as same.

I'm still refusing to start it until it's done - Jordan burned me too hard for me to be willing to try that with older writers. (I made an exception for Brandon Sanderson, and I'm sure he'll make me pay somehow too...)

But given that I have been known to read various history books about the War of the Roses for *fun*, it sounds like I might actually like it. Gryph, once Martin finishes it and I've read it, I'll report back if there's anything at all in there that might be worth UF's time. :}


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drakensis
Member since Dec-20-06
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Jul-08-14, 03:33 AM (EDT)
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33. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #32
 
   I don't know offhand if Martin deliberately makes the links (it seems very likely) but there are a number of characters with obvious parallels to historical characters from the period, although jumbled together.

D.


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JeanneHedge
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Jul-02-14, 00:54 AM (EDT)
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27. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #25
 
   >I've not watched Game of Thrones but have read the first 4 of
>the novels. The good guys (or even the characters you find yourself
>identifying with) don't usually end up winning in the end. Those you
>identify with often end up in bad situations with little hope
>Betrayals and monstrous behavior is often the path to power and
>success. Sometimes it can be confusing who the good guys and the bad
>guys are. Though righteous behavior often goes unrewarded or results
>in woe, villainy sometimes leads to downfall of the villains.

Of course, for the good guys win in the end to mean something, the bad guys have to win sometimes to, or at least be competent. Good guys winning because the bad guys are incompetent, or idiots, or mustache twirlers, or punching bags or just there for the good guys to run over at whim isn't any fun. If that's the quality of the bad guy, the good guy win in the end isn't worth anything at all.

Then again, GoT - as you say, who are the good guys and who are the bad guys?


Jeanne


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mdg1
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Jul-02-14, 07:51 AM (EDT)
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28. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #27
 
  
>Then again, GoT - as you say, who are the good guys and who are the
>bad guys?

I'dve said Bran (the kid who was paralyzed by being pushed out of a castle window in the 8th chapter of the FIRST BOOK...) was a good guy, but I've been told (I never actually made it past that chapter) that he has since performed something akin to telepathic assault on his brain-damaged retainer, Hodor. And even younger brother hasn't done ANYTHING.

So I guess that leaves Hodor, the gentle giant who can only say "Hodor".

(And, if there is a god, will someday have a crossover scene with Groot, somewhere)

I know it has its fans, but I _despise_ GoT.

Mario


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Gryphonadmin
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34. "Chapters 4 and 5"
In response to message #0
 
   I'll have more to say later, but right now, I'd just like to note that it's very satisfying to see that Korra seems - finally! - to be taking to heart the pure and life-affirming truth of Thompson's Law: "Don't take any guff from these fucking swine."

--G.
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Mercutio
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Jul-11-14, 09:15 PM (EDT)
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35. "RE: Chapters 4 and 5"
In response to message #34
 
   I'm somewhat disappointed by the Earth Queen as a villain (she's no Long Feng) but I am deeply happy how Korra handled the whole situation. She was still recognizably Korra (which is to say, her solution involved direct action and copious amounts of violence) but they didn't just flip a switch and suddenly make her smart; she clearly has figured shit out due to previous applications of her approach not working out precisely right.

Also too, I love how Korra has been the conciliatory, diplomatic one in the whole Beifong family situation. (Band name.) You'd normally expect her to instantly pick sides and then stubbornly refuse to change for awhile. Instead she's all been working on Lin patiently but relentlessly.

... like an earthbender would.

Huh. Just realized that.

-Merc
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Gryphonadmin
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Jul-12-14, 03:47 PM (EDT)
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37. "RE: Chapters 4 and 5"
In response to message #35
 
   >I'm somewhat disappointed by the Earth Queen as a villain (she's no
>Long Feng)

Well, he was a villain. The Earth Queen's just an asshole. There's a difference.

>but I am deeply happy how Korra handled the whole
>situation.

I'm not as pleased - I mean, however stylishly handled it was, it still means the Teams Avatar are tied 1-1 in "fleeing from Ba Sing Se with business unfinished" - but at least Korra's got out with their Avatar alive, which will give them the edge in terms of getting into the playoffs if they're still tied at the end of the regular season. I'll give it a 7, but I can't dance to it. :)

--G.
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Gryphonadmin
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36. "RE: Chapters 4 and 5"
In response to message #34
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jul-12-14 AT 04:05 PM (EDT)
 
>I'll have more to say later

Right around now, as it turns out.

Chapter 4

Well, I see Zuko is still... Zuko. I suppose that's comforting in a way.

Also, though I remain unimpressed by the Legion of Doom and their Mysterious Subplot (I know the show is trying to spice up the tension by making it all WHAT DO THEY WANT??, but it's blunted somewhat for me by the fact that I couldn't give a damn what they want), I find it intrinsically satisfying that at least the mooks they're pummelling (yeah, lookin' at you, Tonraq) are getting some karmic payback for the way they treated Korra as a child. More on this in a bit.

Yay, another scene that's just Korra and Asami. Really, you don't have to be Into Them to enjoy that.

"I can't believe I helped her." 25 points to Asami for not asking, "Why not? That kind of thing always happens to you. I'd think you'd be used to it by now."

At least they're not talking about Mako, that's nice. Although he does immediately show up and ruin the moment.

In my mind, that hapless flunky will someday be the father of the 54th Earth Monarch. Just another one of his uncountable unpleasant duties. Lie back and think of the Earth Kingdom, old chap; brave heart. You are a true patriot and a hero of your country, and one day, when your offspring is on the throne, you will dwell in well-deserved recumbent splendor for the rest of your days.

"I've been reading some of Jinora's books." Oh, yeah, like you can read, Mako.

OK, hang on, hold the phone, Grade A record scratch moment. Korra discovers the (retroactive-smelling, frankly) reason she was imprisoned and denied any semblance of a normal childhood with the connivance of her own father, Tenzin says gravely,* "It was for your own safety," and... that's it! Under the rug it goes; Korra doesn't even react.

So let me get this straight. Four crazies tried to abduct the child Avatar (and despite all the hype about how terribly powerful and dangerous they are, they managed to lose that fight to Tenzin, Zuko, Sokka, and Tonraq, so how tough can they be, realistically?), and the response of her caretakers is to ruin her childhood and set her up for all the well-meaning-but-half-witted post-adolescent blundering around she spent the first twenty-four episodes of this series agonizing us with.

That was their best plan? That's like painting over a mural so no one can deface it. Must have been Zuko's idea, am I right? He was always the one with the really shitty ideas. I'm not surprised Tenzin and Tonraq went along with it - the former is Tenzin and the latter is a block of Samsonite - but what in the world made Sokka and Katara play along with that nonsense? Besides the fact that they had to because it's a retroactively imposed plotline, I mean.

And Korra - who was never the quiet one - has nothing to say about that revelation. At all. She just stands there and lets Lin move the conversation along. No protest, no acknowledgement that this isn't really the time to get into that but by all that's holy you and I are going to have some words about this later, Tenzin (which I would have accepted), not even an expression of mild exasperation. Nothing.

I guess, the time budget for this show is pretty tight, they must have had to save the screen time for something more important than Korra reacting to the discovery that she never got to be a child or go anywhere or have any friends or see anything because her father is an imbecile. Like Jinora flirting with the future criminal deadbeat embarrassment-to-the-entire-airbender-nation father of her children, despite the fact that she's ten eeewwwww.

Honestly, every time this show starts to win me over - and it really has with some of the other stuff that's been happening so far this season - it almost immediately turns around and sticks its finger in my other eye. If the Avatar's function really is to bring balance to the world (and what the hell does that even mean, anyway? It's a Deepak Chopra profound-but-empty phrase), it must be the scriptwriter's job to bring balance to my blood pressure.

While I'm ranting, did you clock Lin's brilliant plan? It's to take Korra back to Republic City. Not only is she the Chief of Police there, and as such should know this anyway, she was standing right next to President Fuckstick when he banished Korra from the city. (Or was it, in fact, from the entire United Republic?) Have all the Beifong women suffered serious head injuries in this show? First Toph turns up in a Book 1 flashback acting like a completely different person, and now her daughter apparently has serious medium-term memory problems.

*sigh* Anyway.

"These criminals are unlike anything you've ever faced before." Oh, so they're unlike my evil uncle who turned into a giant monster and raped my soul? Good, I wasn't looking forward to fighting another one of those. (Seriously, Lin. Take notes if you can't keep up.)

"I'm not leaving until we've committed a de jure act of war against the Earth Kingdom."

"OK. As the chief law enforcement officer of the United Republic, I'll help you out with that. In uniform, with my plainly marked Republic City Police zeppelin. What time should I be there?"

????

(Also, I find it very interesting that it is evidently not a condition of continued employment that officers of the Republic City Police Department actually go to work at any time, or indeed even try very hard to remain within the Republic. That's an extremely enlightened HR policy on the PD's part, but I hope for the city budget's sake they at least don't get paid when they skive off work for weeks at a time to go with their girlfriends to a festival in the South Pole, or trail morosely after their exes on some damnfool idealistic crusade, or try to bully the Avatar into returning to a city she's not legally allowed to be in anyway.)

Ha, the scene where they're all sneaking into the Dai Li fortress. Descending the stairs in identical poses in the foreground: Korra, Beard No. 1, Beard No. 2. Great visual. (How weird must it be for the brothers Aangsson to go on secret action team-ups with Korra? Pretty weird, I would guess.)

"There's another airbender who isn't here. His name is Kai."

"Oh, good, then we don't have to take him with us. C'mon, Tenzin, let's jet. We'll tell Jinora he went to live on a farm with lots of other airbenders and he's happy there."

Bumi's thing with the radio reminds me of the episode of the old Tick cartoon where the Tick and Arthur are secret agents, and the Tick keeps making burst-of-static noises with his mouth whenever he uses the radio. "Will you stop spitting into your radio!"

Ye gods, an irresolvable quandary. In a scenario where Mako is pissed off at Kai, whom do you root for? Maybe they'll annihilate each other. That would really be ideal. (I know Mako's making an effort this season, but it's too late for that in my book; after the shit he pulled last season, he doesn't even deserve to be on the show any more, the unforgivable grub.)

Ha, check out the high standard of Dai Li marksmanship. "These rock shards, too precise for sandbenders. Only Earth Kingdom stormtroopers are so precise."

Second guy from the right, Hapless Earth Kingdom Airbenders Listen to Tenzin's Speech crowd scene: I always knew Egon was more than just a parapsychologist.

Aw, no, not the George and Vulture. Why does everything awesome on this show get shuffled off-screen again within an episode or two? Well, at least they're taking Kai with them.

Chapter 5

"I'd rest a lot easier if you were back safe in Republic City." Yeah, because A) your boss would totes be down with that and B) Republic City has historically been such a safe place to be Korra.

... ! OK, that's it. Lin, you are on my list. I didn't like you before, but now I want you off the show. You and Mako can just fuck off to your own show for all I care. I'm sure if somebody greenlit TV shows about S.H.I.E.L.D. and the Gotham PD sans superheroes (and they did), Tales of the Republic City Police will be a roaring success. Don't let the door hit you in the surprisingly-perky-for-50 ass on the way out.

(I mean, seriously! Being mean to Naga? Fuck you, lady! Now that Unalaq's dead, you are officially the worst person in the world.)

So I'll jump ahead a little bit here and share a thought that started forming early in the episode, but didn't come completely together for me until the end. I realize that Zaofu is supposed to be coming across as Good Guy Stronghold #2 here (after the Air Temple), but I almost instantly found it... creepy. It took me until the end of the episode to really get a handle on why, but I eventually figured it out. It's a cliquish utopia - and like all cliquish utopias, it has an inescapable whiff of fanaticism about it. Even if it's well-meaning fanaticism (and in utopias it usually is, for some values of "well-meaning"), that's inherently disquieting. (Lie Detector Gandhi doesn't help. Creepy.)

Also, they have a uniform, and evidently worship the weirdly-out-of-character TLOK flashback version of Toph as a god. None of that bodes really well to me either. :)

EDIT: Hang on, I have it - Zaofu is Utah under Brigham Young. A utopian colony set up within an existing country by fanatical true believers who think they're a law unto themselves. Yeah, that won't be trouble down the road.

"That's Tron. He fights for the Users."

You'd think Korra would be more animated meeting someone who's actually excited to see her, given how many times she's been snubbed, run off, or told she's the worst Avatar ever (which, seriously, Kuruk - do these people not read history).

"And the woman apparently trying to abduct you is your Aunt Lin." Don't worry, though, it's how she shows affection. She's been trying to do the same thing to Korra for the last two episodes, and really, can't you feel the love whenever they're together? ... No, you can't, can you. Hmm. My thesis may be flawed.

"This is the safest city in the world." Neville Chamberlain, London, 1939.

"OK, let's see what you've got."

"I'm not very good."

"That's OK, I'm the worst airbender in the world. Just ask Meelo."

See what I mean about fanaticism? I'm telling you, Suyin seems nice now, but one of these days she's going to turn out to be just another mook who wants Korra to help her take over the world, and turns on her when she won't do it. Mark my words.

(Lin, why are you wearing your armor at dinner? I mean, seriously, I know there's something wrong with you, but even Tony Stark doesn't wear his armor to the dinner table.)

OK, having said that, and even though she's the worst person in the world, I have to say I'm with Lin in the next sequence, though. Varrick? Are you fucking kidding me? Now I know Suyin's trouble. My tables - meet it is I set it down. That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain.

Oh, Bolin. Do you so readily forsake all your hopes? I thought earthbenders were supposed to be patient and abiding.

Rollins is making valiant efforts to make Zaheer interesting here. I have to give him major props for that. I mean he's not succeeding, but look what he has to work with. Ugh, violent supervillains who spout peace-oriented philosophy. I feel like Lo Wang in the opening scene of the new Shadow Warrior. "Shit, I was hoping for a more clichéed setting, but I guess koi ponds and cherry blossoms will have to do."

You're already the worst person in the world, Lin, you don't have to go for the oak leaf cluster by being mean to your niece too.


OK! Well! Definitely a mixed bag, but there wasn't a point where I actually had to stop watching and either come back later or just go read a synopsis of the rest of the episode, as happened frequently in Book 1 and, on a grander scale, to the entirety of the second half of Book 2. And despite all my grumbling above, there are at least things worth grumbling about here. It's very promising, even with the occasional head-to-wall moments. (Seriously, the thing about the real reason for Stalag Avatar was so spuriously handled.)

--G.
* "But I repeat myself." - Mark Twain
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mdg1
Member since Aug-25-04
1010 posts
Jul-12-14, 04:09 PM (EDT)
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38. "RE: Chapters 4 and 5"
In response to message #36
 
   >Korra discovers the (retroactive-smelling, frankly) reason she was
>imprisoned and denied any semblance of a normal childhood with the
>connivance of her own father
, Tenzin says gravely,* "It was for
>your own safety," and... that's it! Under the rug it goes; Korra
>doesn't even react.

Huh. I expected better from Aang's bloodline than a line straight out of the Kenobi/Dumbledore "The adults are talking now, Chosen One" playbook.

Mario


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Gryphonadmin
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Jul-18-14, 09:06 PM (EDT)
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40. "RE: Chapters 4 and 5"
In response to message #38
 
   >>Korra discovers the (retroactive-smelling, frankly) reason she was
>>imprisoned and denied any semblance of a normal childhood with the
>>connivance of her own father
, Tenzin says gravely,* "It was for
>>your own safety," and... that's it! Under the rug it goes; Korra
>>doesn't even react.
>
>Huh. I expected better from Aang's bloodline than a line straight
>out of the Kenobi/Dumbledore "The adults are talking now, Chosen One"
>playbook.

I know, right? You'd think so. But you'd be wrong.

--G.
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Gryphonadmin
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Jul-18-14, 09:05 PM (EDT)
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39. "Chapters 6 and 7"
In response to message #0
 
   Chapter 6

It's cute how they're still on the "Zaofu is the most secure city in the world" thing, but you would think by now that everyone in Korra's entourage would know that's only going to end in tears. And property damage. But mostly tears.

... The Legion of Doom is hijacking UPS trucks now? So much for villain cred.

Hmm. I suppose in this world, acupuncture probably isn't hooey.

Oh hey. Who knew metalbending could be used to make the activity indicator from The Sims?

That's an... oddly modern-sounding siren on that old-timey police car. Very electronic.

It's a good thing there are no acupuncture points below the knees, or it'd be very hard to treat people who are so neurotic they wander around in armored boots even when they can't be bothered to put on a proper shirt.

.. OK, so, if there had been that much tension in that cable, it would've pulled Suyin's arm off. We're all clear on that, right?

Remember what I was saying last time, about how none of the female characters from ATLA act anything like themselves in TLOK? Yeah. Also, I hate to side with someone who was so mean to Naga last episode, but Lin is clearly the only person in the flashback who's even slightly right. No wonder she's the worst person in the world.

"She was so guilt-ridden about what she did to protect you, she didn't feel worthy of her badge!" Well, that might be because she wasn't. I think you may have that one surrounded, Lin, that's some excellent police work.

"You're sisters! Why would you want to hurt each other?" You'll understand when you're older, kid.

"Mako told me that you're an excellent police chief." And... you know, he would know. I guess.

Meanwhile, at the HallCampsite of Doom...

Uh-huh, so Rollins is clairvoyant now? OK...

Chapter 7

... ah, jeez, another episode of The Legend of Somebody Other than Korra? At least it's not Mako this time.

So remember back in, like, the second episode of Book 1, when Korra told Tenzin that he was a terrible teacher, and our takeaway from that was supposed to be that she was a headstrong child who needed taming? Right. I didn't buy it either, and this is why.

"How's the training going?"

"Not so well, I'm afraid. But then, you predicted that 28 episodes ago."

Oh, good, more of Kai. My weekend is complete.

"Can't they see I'm trying to rebuild an entire culture?" That'd probably work if everyone in the world didn't already have one. But they do. So it's not going to. The Jedi are extinct; their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion.

I dunno, guys. All the structural issues this show has because it doesn't have enough episodes to work with, and you spend a whole one on this business? Sigh.

--G.
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Gryphonadmin
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41. "RE: Spoiler-Laden Remarks on TLOKb3"
In response to message #0
 
   Ah, excellent. Nothing lost except the bit I was trying to prune off anyway.

I believe I'll be copying my remarks on 4+5 and 6+7 to a new thread, for length-of-thread purposes if nothing else.

--G.
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