[ EPU Foyer ] [ Lab and Grill ] [ Bonus Theater!! ] [ Rhetorical Questions ] [ CSRANTronix ] [ GNDN ] [ Subterranean Vault ] [ Discussion Forum ] [ Gun of the Week ]

Eyrie Productions, Unlimited

Subject: "A question about firearms" Archived thread - Read only
 
  Previous Topic | Next Topic
Printer-friendly copy    
Conferences General Topic #1296
Reading Topic #1296
dbrandon
Charter Member
221 posts
Dec-10-14, 02:25 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail dbrandon Click to send private message to dbrandon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
"A question about firearms"
 
   Does anyone know what the word "Parabellum" as applied to a firearm actually means? In a practical sense, not a linguistic one. I've been able to determine that it's apparently taken from the Latin phrase typically translated as "If you want peace, prepare for war," which was the motto of the manufacturer, and that it was mostly (always?) affiliated with the Luger name. What I can't seem to determine is whether it was an actual brand or trade name, or whether it particularly specified some type of ammunition, weapon system, both, neither, or whatever.

It does not appear to be a currently registered trademarked in the US or the EU, but the available records are occasionally a little unreliable regarding older terms that might not have been registered in the same way.

I know that this is a little random, but I also know that there are several people on these forums that are much more knowledgeable about firearms than I am, and I'm hoping that someone can either clarify this or point me in the direction of a reputable (and hopefully online) source.

Thanks,
dbrandon


  Printer-friendly page | Top

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: A question about firearms Gryphonadmin Dec-10-14 1
     RE: A question about firearms MuninsFire Dec-10-14 2
     RE: A question about firearms dbrandon Dec-10-14 3
         RE: A question about firearms Gryphonadmin Dec-10-14 4
     RE: A question about firearms Gryphonadmin Oct-08-15 5

Conferences | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic
Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
22408 posts
Dec-10-14, 02:45 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Gryphon Click to send private message to Gryphon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
1. "RE: A question about firearms"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON Dec-10-14 AT 02:46 PM (EST)
 
>Does anyone know what the word "Parabellum" as applied to a firearm
>actually means? In a practical sense, not a linguistic one.
>I've been able to determine that it's apparently taken from the Latin
>phrase typically translated as "If you want peace, prepare for war,"
>which was the motto of the manufacturer, and that it was mostly
>(always?) affiliated with the Luger name. What I can't seem to
>determine is whether it was an actual brand or trade name, or whether
>it particularly specified some type of ammunition, weapon system,
>both, neither, or whatever.

By a strange coincidence, you have wandered into one of the areas of my nerdery. It comes from the original proper name of the Luger pistol, Pistole Parabellum 1908, that is, "pistol for war, model 1908". "Luger" is the name of the designer, Georg Luger, and was never actually in the brand name of the original product, which was made by Deutsche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken AG (German Weapons and Munitions Manufacturing Company).

(I think the "pistol for war" thing is as opposed to, for instance, Polizeipistole, "pistol for police", which is what the "PP" in "Walther PPK" stands for. The "K" is for Kriminale, "criminal police" being - a bit charmingly - what detectives are called in Germany. That is only a surmise, however. Why the Latin for "for war" as opposed to, say, Kriegspistole, I am similarly in the dark about. It might just have been a style thing - deliberately invoking the si vis pacem para bellum motto, most likely.)

Anyway, the reason it's part of the ammunition's name too is because the 9x19mm pistol cartridge was developed for the P08, to increase its power (it was originally chambered for a smaller caliber called, perhaps unsurprisingly, 7.65mm Parabellum). So it originally meant literally "9mm cartridge for the Parabellum pistol". Only later on did the designers of other weapons (such as the Browning Hi-Power/FN GP35, Walther P38, Hugo Schmeisser's MP40 submachinegun, and a jillion others in subsequent decades) choose it as the ammo for their own products. Just by chance, it has the balance of power, compactness, and ease of use that ended up making it the most popular handgun cartridge in the world, a position I believe it still holds today.

So it probably was a trademark, at least in Germany, but that trademark was held by a German company before WWI and it's long since lapsed into generic usage - although some manufacturers do still mark it "9mm Luger" instead. They're both the same thing.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
MuninsFire
Member since Mar-27-07
457 posts
Dec-10-14, 03:38 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail MuninsFire Click to send private message to MuninsFire Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
2. "RE: A question about firearms"
In response to message #1
 
   LAST EDITED ON Dec-10-14 AT 03:39 PM (EST)
 
(Nevermind; it helps if I read the whole thread first)

In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome decree
Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
Through caverns measureless to man
Down to a sunless sea


  Printer-friendly page | Top
dbrandon
Charter Member
221 posts
Dec-10-14, 03:49 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail dbrandon Click to send private message to dbrandon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
3. "RE: A question about firearms"
In response to message #1
 
   Hmmmm. Thanks. So, just to sum up, Parabellum was originally the Proper Name of a particular pistol. A particular type of ammunition was designed for said pistol, and therefore was given the same name. The ammo was subsequently adopted for use in other guns by other manufacturers because of its general utility and good design.

If a given gun is referred to in a contemporary news article, novel, or whatever as a Parabellum, does that imply that it's specifically an old P08, or a reproduction, or does the name ever get used to refer to more modern guns using the Parabellum ammo (i.e., a parabellum = a gun using parabellum ammo)?

Wikipedia also mentions (and yes, I know that might be my problem right there) the Parabellum MG14 machine gun, also manufactured by DWM, which did not use the same ammo (7.92×57mm Mauser, if I'm reading that right?). Is this just DWM reusing a popular name, or is there some other connection?

Thanks for letting me pick your brain,
dbrandon


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
22408 posts
Dec-10-14, 07:04 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Gryphon Click to send private message to Gryphon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
4. "RE: A question about firearms"
In response to message #3
 
   LAST EDITED ON Dec-10-14 AT 07:05 PM (EST)
 
>Hmmmm. Thanks. So, just to sum up, Parabellum was originally the
>Proper Name of a particular pistol. A particular type of ammunition
>was designed for said pistol, and therefore was given the same name.
>The ammo was subsequently adopted for use in other guns by other
>manufacturers because of its general utility and good design.

Yes. That is basically the size of it.

>If a given gun is referred to in a contemporary news article, novel,
>or whatever as a Parabellum, does that imply that it's specifically an
>old P08, or a reproduction, or does the name ever get used to refer to
>more modern guns using the Parabellum ammo (i.e., a parabellum = a gun
>using parabellum ammo)?

Well, context is king, of course, but I'd say most of the time, what it implies is that the writer doesn't know much about guns. Calling a modern firearm (such as, say, a Glock Model 17) chambered for 9mm Parabellum a "Parabellum" - or even a Luger! - is a common mistake among non-gun-savvy journalists, for instance, but linguistically it's like calling a Corvette a "gasoline". :)

(In a similar vein, characters in old detective novels are forever being described as wielding "revolvers" when subsequent descriptions make it plain that the author had in mind a small automatic, but didn't know how firearms worked and assumed that "revolver" is synonymous with "handgun".)

>Wikipedia also mentions (and yes, I know that might be my problem
>right there) the Parabellum MG14 machine gun, also manufactured by
>DWM, which did not use the same ammo (7.92×57mm Mauser, if I'm
>reading that right?). Is this just DWM reusing a popular name, or is
>there some other connection?

I think DWM just had a thing for that word. Germany was a very militaristic place in the late 19th and early 20th centuries (the country was essentially born in an international war, the Franco-Prussian War of 1871, and its foreign policy went on to contribute mightily to the origins of the First World War and outright start the Second), and advertising its weapons as being built "for war" (as opposed to hunting, policing, or what have you) was a big part of DWM's identity. It was sort of their equivalent of "Built Ford Tough". The implication, by connecting it with the well-known Latin phrase, that Germany's war preparations were in pursuit of peace was probably also a canny bit of marketing, albeit one that looks a bit threadbare in the light of the above. At the time, that was some subtle and sophisticated classical-referencin'.

If you're curious, 7.92x57mm Mauser is so called because it was the standard rifle cartridge of the German armed forces in both World Wars, and the most common weapon chambered for it was thus the German standard-issue infantry rifle, the Gewehr 98 ("Rifle, model 1898"), and all its many variants. The G98 and its shorter, wieldier brother, the Karabiner ("Carbine") 98K, were made by practically any outfit in Germany that had the capacity to drill holes in metal by the end of WWII, but they were originally developed by the Mauser company, and so people assumed they'd also developed the cartridge. They didn't, the German government did (which is why, for instance, the MG14 also used it - standardization simplifies supply), but the name stuck. You might also see references around to "8mm Mauser", which is the same cartridge with slightly sloppier math. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
22408 posts
Oct-08-15, 06:59 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Gryphon Click to send private message to Gryphon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
5. "RE: A question about firearms"
In response to message #1
 
   Yeah, it's nearly a year later, but it's my party and I'll cry if I want to - I committed one common gunwriting blunder in the post this is a reply to, which I feel (having been reminded of the post by something elsewhere and come back to re-read it) I should correct. Hugo Schmeisser, although a prodigious firearms designer, did not design the MP40. Heinrich Vollmer did (and based it largely on the design of an earlier weapon by still a third designer whose name I have shamefully forgotten). Allied forces took to calling the MP40 "the Schmeisser submachine gun" because one of the most obvious markings on captured examples was Schmeisser's name on the magazines, but all that marking actually meant was that the magazine - not the gun - was based on one of his patents.

Hugo Schmeisser did design the MP43/MP44/Sturmgewehr 44 (they kept changing the designation), the world's first operational assault rifle, and the weapon which, because of its profile and distinctive curved magazine, is why people sometimes think they're seeing German soldiers anachronistically using AK-47s in some war movies. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


  Printer-friendly page | Top

Conferences | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

[ YUM ] [ BIG ] [ ??!? ] [ RANT ] [ GNDN ] [ STORE ] [ FORUM ] GOTW ] [ VAULT ]

version 3.3 © 2001
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited
Benjamin D. Hutchins
E P U (Colour)