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Subject: "More Spoilery Remarks,TLOKb3 Ch4+"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
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Gryphonadmin
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Jul-20-14, 12:34 PM (EDT)
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"More Spoilery Remarks,TLOKb3 Ch4+"
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jul-20-14 AT 12:36 PM (EDT)
 
The previous "spoiler-laden comments" thread was getting long anyway, so I'm copying my remarks on Chapters 4 through 7 here. (Depending on the forum weather, future episodes will also get commented on here or in still a further thread.)

--G.


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  Chapters 4 and 5 Gryphonadmin Jul-20-14 1
  Chapter 6 and 7 Gryphonadmin Jul-20-14 2
     RE: Chapter 6 and 7 Mercutio Jul-21-14 3
         RE: Chapter 6 and 7 drakensis Jul-21-14 4
         RE: Chapter 6 and 7 Gryphonadmin Jul-21-14 5
     RE: Chapter 6 and 7 Gryphonadmin Jul-30-14 17
  The Digital Thing Gryphonadmin Jul-25-14 6
     RE: The Digital Thing pjmoyermoderator Jul-25-14 7
         RE: The Digital Thing Gryphonadmin Jul-26-14 9
             RE: The Digital Thing pjmoyermoderator Jul-26-14 10
                 RE: The Digital Thing Gryphonadmin Jul-26-14 11
                 RE: The Digital Thing StClair Jul-27-14 12
                     RE: The Digital Thing Gryphonadmin Jul-27-14 13
                 RE: The Digital Thing Mephronmoderator Jul-27-14 14
                     RE: The Digital Thing Gryphonadmin Jul-27-14 15
  FYI: Chapter 8 Gryphonadmin Jul-26-14 8
     Chapter 8 Gryphonadmin Jul-27-14 16
         RE: Chapter 8 Gryphonadmin Jul-31-14 18
             RE: Chapter 8 SpottedKitty Aug-02-14 21
  Chapter 9 Gryphonadmin Aug-01-14 20
     RE: Chapter 9 VoidRandom Aug-02-14 22
         RE: Chapter 9 Gryphonadmin Aug-02-14 24
             RE: Chapter 9 mdg1 Aug-02-14 26
                 RE: Chapter 9 Gryphonadmin Aug-02-14 27
             RE: Chapter 9 VoidRandom Aug-02-14 35
                 RE: Chapter 9 Gryphonadmin Aug-02-14 38
                     RE: Chapter 9 VoidRandom Aug-02-14 39
                         RE: Chapter 9 Gryphonadmin Aug-02-14 40
                             RE: Chapter 9 VoidRandom Aug-02-14 43
         RE: Chapter 9 Gryphonadmin Aug-02-14 29
             RE: Chapter 9 VoidRandom Aug-03-14 45
                 RE: Chapter 9 Gryphonadmin Aug-03-14 46
     RE: Chapter 9 mdg1 Aug-02-14 23
         RE: Chapter 9 Gryphonadmin Aug-02-14 25
     RE: Chapter 9 Gryphonadmin Aug-02-14 28
         RE: Chapter 9 pjmoyermoderator Aug-02-14 30
             RE: Chapter 9 Gryphonadmin Aug-02-14 31
                 RE: Chapter 9 Gryphonadmin Aug-02-14 32
                 RE: Chapter 9 Matrix Dragon Aug-02-14 44
         RE: Chapter 9 mdg1 Aug-02-14 33
             RE: Chapter 9 Gryphonadmin Aug-02-14 34
                 RE: Chapter 9 VoidRandom Aug-02-14 36
                     RE: Chapter 9 mdg1 Aug-02-14 37
                         RE: Chapter 9 StClair Aug-06-14 51
             RE: Chapter 9 Matrix Dragon Aug-02-14 41
                 RE: Chapter 9 Gryphonadmin Aug-02-14 42
     RE: Chapter 9 Nova Floresca Aug-03-14 47
         RE: Chapter 9 Gryphonadmin Aug-03-14 48
             RE: Chapter 9 Nova Floresca Aug-03-14 49
                 RE: Chapter 9 Gryphonadmin Aug-03-14 50

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Gryphonadmin
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Jul-20-14, 12:37 PM (EDT)
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1. "Chapters 4 and 5"
In response to message #0
 
   >I'll have more to say later

Right around now, as it turns out.

Chapter 4

Well, I see Zuko is still... Zuko. I suppose that's comforting in a way.

Also, though I remain unimpressed by the Legion of Doom and their Mysterious Subplot (I know the show is trying to spice up the tension by making it all WHAT DO THEY WANT??, but it's blunted somewhat for me by the fact that I couldn't give a damn what they want), I find it intrinsically satisfying that at least the mooks they're pummelling (yeah, lookin' at you, Tonraq) are getting some karmic payback for the way they treated Korra as a child. More on this in a bit.

Yay, another scene that's just Korra and Asami. Really, you don't have to be Into Them to enjoy that.

"I can't believe I helped her." 25 points to Asami for not asking, "Why not? That kind of thing always happens to you. I'd think you'd be used to it by now."

At least they're not talking about Mako, that's nice. Although he does immediately show up and ruin the moment.

In my mind, that hapless flunky will someday be the father of the 54th Earth Monarch. Just another one of his uncountable unpleasant duties. Lie back and think of the Earth Kingdom, old chap; brave heart. You are a true patriot and a hero of your country, and one day, when your offspring is on the throne, you will dwell in well-deserved recumbent splendor for the rest of your days.

"I've been reading some of Jinora's books." Oh, yeah, like you can read, Mako.

OK, hang on, hold the phone, Grade A record scratch moment. Korra discovers the (retroactive-smelling, frankly) reason she was imprisoned and denied any semblance of a normal childhood with the connivance of her own father, Tenzin says gravely,* "It was for your own safety," and... that's it! Under the rug it goes; Korra doesn't even react.

So let me get this straight. Four crazies tried to abduct the child Avatar (and despite all the hype about how terribly powerful and dangerous they are, they managed to lose that fight to Tenzin, Zuko, Sokka, and Tonraq, so how tough can they be, realistically?), and the response of her caretakers is to ruin her childhood and set her up for all the well-meaning-but-half-witted post-adolescent blundering around she spent the first twenty-four episodes of this series agonizing us with.

That was their best plan? That's like painting over a mural so no one can deface it. Must have been Zuko's idea, am I right? He was always the one with the really shitty ideas. I'm not surprised Tenzin and Tonraq went along with it - the former is Tenzin and the latter is a block of Samsonite - but what in the world made Sokka and Katara play along with that nonsense? Besides the fact that they had to because it's a retroactively imposed plotline, I mean.

And Korra - who was never the quiet one - has nothing to say about that revelation. At all. She just stands there and lets Lin move the conversation along. No protest, no acknowledgement that this isn't really the time to get into that but by all that's holy you and I are going to have some words about this later, Tenzin (which I would have accepted), not even an expression of mild exasperation. Nothing.

I guess, the time budget for this show is pretty tight, they must have had to save the screen time for something more important than Korra reacting to the discovery that she never got to be a child or go anywhere or have any friends or see anything because her father is an imbecile. Like Jinora flirting with the future criminal deadbeat embarrassment-to-the-entire-airbender-nation father of her children, despite the fact that she's ten eeewwwww.

Honestly, every time this show starts to win me over - and it really has with some of the other stuff that's been happening so far this season - it almost immediately turns around and sticks its finger in my other eye. If the Avatar's function really is to bring balance to the world (and what the hell does that even mean, anyway? It's a Deepak Chopra profound-but-empty phrase), it must be the scriptwriter's job to bring balance to my blood pressure.

While I'm ranting, did you clock Lin's brilliant plan? It's to take Korra back to Republic City. Not only is she the Chief of Police there, and as such should know this anyway, she was standing right next to President Fuckstick when he banished Korra from the city. (Or was it, in fact, from the entire United Republic?) Have all the Beifong women suffered serious head injuries in this show? First Toph turns up in a Book 1 flashback acting like a completely different person, and now her daughter apparently has serious medium-term memory problems.

*sigh* Anyway.

"These criminals are unlike anything you've ever faced before." Oh, so they're unlike my evil uncle who turned into a giant monster and raped my soul? Good, I wasn't looking forward to fighting another one of those. (Seriously, Lin. Take notes if you can't keep up.)

"I'm not leaving until we've committed a de jure act of war against the Earth Kingdom."

"OK. As the chief law enforcement officer of the United Republic, I'll help you out with that. In uniform, with my plainly marked Republic City Police zeppelin. What time should I be there?"

????

(Also, I find it very interesting that it is evidently not a condition of continued employment that officers of the Republic City Police Department actually go to work at any time, or indeed even try very hard to remain within the Republic. That's an extremely enlightened HR policy on the PD's part, but I hope for the city budget's sake they at least don't get paid when they skive off work for weeks at a time to go with their girlfriends to a festival in the South Pole, or trail morosely after their exes on some damnfool idealistic crusade, or try to bully the Avatar into returning to a city she's not legally allowed to be in anyway.)

Ha, the scene where they're all sneaking into the Dai Li fortress. Descending the stairs in identical poses in the foreground: Korra, Beard No. 1, Beard No. 2. Great visual. (How weird must it be for the brothers Aangsson to go on secret action team-ups with Korra? Pretty weird, I would guess.)

"There's another airbender who isn't here. His name is Kai."

"Oh, good, then we don't have to take him with us. C'mon, Tenzin, let's jet. We'll tell Jinora he went to live on a farm with lots of other airbenders and he's happy there."

Bumi's thing with the radio reminds me of the episode of the old Tick cartoon where the Tick and Arthur are secret agents, and the Tick keeps making burst-of-static noises with his mouth whenever he uses the radio. "Will you stop spitting into your radio!"

Ye gods, an irresolvable quandary. In a scenario where Mako is pissed off at Kai, whom do you root for? Maybe they'll annihilate each other. That would really be ideal. (I know Mako's making an effort this season, but it's too late for that in my book; after the shit he pulled last season, he doesn't even deserve to be on the show any more, the unforgivable grub.)

Ha, check out the high standard of Dai Li marksmanship. "These rock shards, too precise for sandbenders. Only Earth Kingdom stormtroopers are so precise."

Second guy from the right, Hapless Earth Kingdom Airbenders Listen to Tenzin's Speech crowd scene: I always knew Egon was more than just a parapsychologist.

Aw, no, not the George and Vulture. Why does everything awesome on this show get shuffled off-screen again within an episode or two? Well, at least they're taking Kai with them.

Chapter 5

"I'd rest a lot easier if you were back safe in Republic City." Yeah, because A) your boss would totes be down with that and B) Republic City has historically been such a safe place to be Korra.

... ! OK, that's it. Lin, you are on my list. I didn't like you before, but now I want you off the show. You and Mako can just fuck off to your own show for all I care. I'm sure if somebody greenlit TV shows about S.H.I.E.L.D. and the Gotham PD sans superheroes (and they did), Tales of the Republic City Police will be a roaring success. Don't let the door hit you in the surprisingly-perky-for-50 ass on the way out.

(I mean, seriously! Being mean to Naga? Fuck you, lady! Now that Unalaq's dead, you are officially the worst person in the world.)

So I'll jump ahead a little bit here and share a thought that started forming early in the episode, but didn't come completely together for me until the end. I realize that Zaofu is supposed to be coming across as Good Guy Stronghold #2 here (after the Air Temple), but I almost instantly found it... creepy. It took me until the end of the episode to really get a handle on why, but I eventually figured it out. It's a cliquish utopia - and like all cliquish utopias, it has an inescapable whiff of fanaticism about it. Even if it's well-meaning fanaticism (and in utopias it usually is, for some values of "well-meaning"), that's inherently disquieting. (Lie Detector Gandhi doesn't help. Creepy.)

Also, they have a uniform, and evidently worship the weirdly-out-of-character TLOK flashback version of Toph as a god. None of that bodes really well to me either. :)

EDIT: Hang on, I have it - Zaofu is Utah under Brigham Young. A utopian colony set up within an existing country by fanatical true believers who think they're a law unto themselves. Yeah, that won't be trouble down the road.

"That's Tron. He fights for the Users."

You'd think Korra would be more animated meeting someone who's actually excited to see her, given how many times she's been snubbed, run off, or told she's the worst Avatar ever (which, seriously, Kuruk - do these people not read history).

"And the woman apparently trying to abduct you is your Aunt Lin." Don't worry, though, it's how she shows affection. She's been trying to do the same thing to Korra for the last two episodes, and really, can't you feel the love whenever they're together? ... No, you can't, can you. Hmm. My thesis may be flawed.

"This is the safest city in the world." Neville Chamberlain, London, 1939.

"OK, let's see what you've got."

"I'm not very good."

"That's OK, I'm the worst airbender in the world. Just ask Meelo."

See what I mean about fanaticism? I'm telling you, Suyin seems nice now, but one of these days she's going to turn out to be just another mook who wants Korra to help her take over the world, and turns on her when she won't do it. Mark my words.

(Lin, why are you wearing your armor at dinner? I mean, seriously, I know there's something wrong with you, but even Tony Stark doesn't wear his armor to the dinner table.)

OK, having said that, and even though she's the worst person in the world, I have to say I'm with Lin in the next sequence, though. Varrick? Are you fucking kidding me? Now I know Suyin's trouble. My tables - meet it is I set it down. That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain.

Oh, Bolin. Do you so readily forsake all your hopes? I thought earthbenders were supposed to be patient and abiding.

Rollins is making valiant efforts to make Zaheer interesting here. I have to give him major props for that. I mean he's not succeeding, but look what he has to work with. Ugh, violent supervillains who spout peace-oriented philosophy. I feel like Lo Wang in the opening scene of the new Shadow Warrior. "Shit, I was hoping for a more clichéed setting, but I guess koi ponds and cherry blossoms will have to do."

You're already the worst person in the world, Lin, you don't have to go for the oak leaf cluster by being mean to your niece too.


OK! Well! Definitely a mixed bag, but there wasn't a point where I actually had to stop watching and either come back later or just go read a synopsis of the rest of the episode, as happened frequently in Book 1 and, on a grander scale, to the entirety of the second half of Book 2. And despite all my grumbling above, there are at least things worth grumbling about here. It's very promising, even with the occasional head-to-wall moments. (Seriously, the thing about the real reason for Stalag Avatar was so spuriously handled.)

--G.
* "But I repeat myself." - Mark Twain
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Gryphonadmin
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Jul-20-14, 12:38 PM (EDT)
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2. "Chapter 6 and 7"
In response to message #0
 
   Chapter 6

It's cute how they're still on the "Zaofu is the most secure city in the world" thing, but you would think by now that everyone in Korra's entourage would know that's only going to end in tears. And property damage. But mostly tears.

... The Legion of Doom is hijacking UPS trucks now? So much for villain cred.

Hmm. I suppose in this world, acupuncture probably isn't hooey.

Oh hey. Who knew metalbending could be used to make the activity indicator from The Sims?

That's an... oddly modern-sounding siren on that old-timey police car. Very electronic.

It's a good thing there are no acupuncture points below the knees, or it'd be very hard to treat people who are so neurotic they wander around in armored boots even when they can't be bothered to put on a proper shirt.

.. OK, so, if there had been that much tension in that cable, it would've pulled Suyin's arm off. We're all clear on that, right?

Remember what I was saying last time, about how none of the female characters from ATLA act anything like themselves in TLOK? Yeah. Also, I hate to side with someone who was so mean to Naga last episode, but Lin is clearly the only person in the flashback who's even slightly right. No wonder she's the worst person in the world.

"She was so guilt-ridden about what she did to protect you, she didn't feel worthy of her badge!" Well, that might be because she wasn't. I think you may have that one surrounded, Lin, that's some excellent police work.

"You're sisters! Why would you want to hurt each other?" You'll understand when you're older, kid.

"Mako told me that you're an excellent police chief." And... you know, he would know. I guess.

Meanwhile, at the HallCampsite of Doom...

Uh-huh, so Rollins is clairvoyant now? OK...

Chapter 7

... ah, jeez, another episode of The Legend of Somebody Other than Korra? At least it's not Mako this time.

So remember back in, like, the second episode of Book 1, when Korra told Tenzin that he was a terrible teacher, and our takeaway from that was supposed to be that she was a headstrong child who needed taming? Right. I didn't buy it either, and this is why.

"How's the training going?"

"Not so well, I'm afraid. But then, you predicted that 28 episodes ago."

Oh, good, more of Kai. My weekend is complete.

"Can't they see I'm trying to rebuild an entire culture?" That'd probably work if everyone in the world didn't already have one. But they do. So it's not going to. The Jedi are extinct; their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion.

I dunno, guys. All the structural issues this show has because it doesn't have enough episodes to work with, and you spend a whole one on this business? Sigh.

--G.
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Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
545 posts
Jul-21-14, 01:53 AM (EDT)
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3. "RE: Chapter 6 and 7"
In response to message #2
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jul-21-14 AT 02:01 AM (EDT)
 
>So remember back in, like, the second episode of Book 1, when Korra told
>Tenzin that he was a terrible teacher, and our takeaway from that was supposed
>to be that she was a headstrong child who needed taming? Right. I didn't buy
>it either, and this is why.

Mmm. I'm not gonna say you're wrong, but... my takeaway from that was "Korra and Tenzin have no idea how the other one operates and as a result are going talking past each other. They need to learn to meet each other halfway."

I would normally inclined towards your interpretation, except for the fact that the show demonstrates that Tenzin was wrong; Korra totally groks the airbending philosophies of movement he was pouring into her ear the moment she encounters a situation that makes them relevant as opposed to preachy abstractions.

It does demonstrate that Korra was somewhat wrong too, I'll admit, but less egregiously than Tenzin because Korra is a headstrong teenager who is also the Avatar and Tenzin is supposedly the leader of a group of monks and has been a professional educator all his life.

I dunno, tho. I like Tenzin better than you do and cut him more slack, I think. Tenzin just wants to be his father so badly it almost hurts to watch sometimes, and he has the exact same weird blind spots Aang did. I found those blind spots annoying in Aang, but in Tenzin I find them heartbreaking, because the dude is in his fifties and Aang was twelve.

I could just be weird, but I kind of want to give Tenzin a book about self-esteem issues and get him some real serious therapy.

>Remember what I was saying last time, about how none of the female
>characters from ATLA act anything like themselves in TLOK? Yeah.
>Also, I hate to side with someone who was so mean to Naga last
>episode, but Lin is clearly the only person in the flashback who's
>even slightly right. No wonder she's the worst person in the world.
>
>"She was so guilt-ridden about what she did to protect you, she didn't
>feel worthy of her badge!" Well, that might be because she
>wasn't.
I think you may have that one surrounded, Lin, that's
>some excellent police work.

Y'know, I'm legitimately curious, Ben. Why do you think what Toph did was out of character?

Toph is... really, really loaded up with parent issues. I mean, wow kinda loaded up. That's a major plot point in ATLA. And a lot of time what people who have those sorts of parent issues do is let them unduly color their own interactions with their kids.

In Toph's case, that seems to have manifested in a desire to validate her kids life choices and encourage and protect them no matter what. That makes a lot of sense coming from someone whose parents seemed to have a desire to keep her living as a virtual invalid her entire life. And Toph has never had much use for rules and regulations as they applied directly to her (while she loves to apply them to others; really, Toph is a bit of a tyrant) so for me, the out of character moment wasn't when she covered up her kids arrest record; it was when she felt guilty enough about it to bail on the force a year later.

(Although I suppose having to cook your kids criminal record is the sort of thing that snaps Toph out of the extended midlife crisis she was clearly having at the time.)

Tangent: while I'm sure we're all disappointed she didn't breed with Sokka (or if she did, they for some baffling reason kept it secret) I think we can all agree it is entirely in-character for Toph to have had two kids with two different dudes who either died soon after or she declined to keep in touch with, right? Because I sort of envision Toph as having made a lot of EXTREMELY questionable and/or dangerous life choices in her teens and twenties.

-Merc
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drakensis
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Jul-21-14, 03:39 AM (EDT)
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4. "RE: Chapter 6 and 7"
In response to message #3
 
   Or as one fic put it when Toph turned up a mother:

"You didn't tell me you got involved with anyone, Toph," Katara says brightly, obviously trying to steer the conversation away from tinkering with people's bending.

Toph looks, if possible, even more unimpressed than usual.

"Only if by getting involved you mean letting the guy buy me a drink."

D.


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Gryphonadmin
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Jul-21-14, 03:44 AM (EDT)
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5. "RE: Chapter 6 and 7"
In response to message #3
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jul-21-14 AT 06:24 PM (EDT)
 
(What, nothing on 4+5? I thought there was a lot more interesting stuff going on in those two.)

>>So remember back in, like, the second episode of Book 1, when Korra told
>>Tenzin that he was a terrible teacher, and our takeaway from that was supposed
>>to be that she was a headstrong child who needed taming? Right. I didn't buy
>>it either, and this is why.
>
>Mmm. I'm not gonna say you're wrong

PROTIP: If you're going to say this at all, stop there.

>my takeaway from that was
>"Korra and Tenzin have no idea how the other one operates and as a
>result are going talking past each other. They need to learn to meet
>each other halfway."
>
>I would normally inclined towards your interpretation, except for the
>fact that the show demonstrates that Tenzin was wrong; Korra totally
>groks the airbending philosophies of movement he was pouring into her
>ear the moment she encounters a situation that makes them
>relevant as opposed to preachy abstractions.
>
>It does demonstrate that Korra was somewhat wrong too

Not as such, actually. What it demonstrates is that Tenzin is a competent instructor, in terms of Korra having learned the mechanics he was trying to show her - IOW, she learned ba gua from him just fine - but he's a woeful teacher because at no point did he connect what he was showing her to anything that was actually useful. She had to discover that for herself.

I could use her actual manifestation of airbending, and the fact that it had zero to do with philosophical anything, as a further example, except that's structurally compromised in itself by the fact that the so-called climax to the Equalist storyline was stumbling-drunk lame, and as such can't really be held to be representative of anything.

(In fact, the more I reflect on Book 1 as a whole, the more utterly repellent I'm finding its central story arc. I took another look at it when Book 3 started, in order to maybe give it another chance, and it actually came out worse for the closer inspection. "An intrepid young woman moves to the Big City to further her education. Almost immediately after arriving, she's targeted by a serial rapist who taunts her repeatedly about how he's saving her for last. When the authorities prove worse than useless, she sets herself the task of bringing him down before he can make her one of his victims... and fails." Uuugh, I mean, what the fuck, Nickelodeon? Animated action-adventure programs shouldn't need trigger warnings.*)

>Y'know, I'm legitimately curious, Ben. Why do you think what Toph did
>was out of character?

Well, once again, the examination sort of fails at first principles. Toph Beifong as a police officer is a ludicrous starting position. It's like being expected to believe that Jonny Quest grew up to be a patent attorney.

>Toph is... really, really loaded up with parent issues. I mean, wow
>kinda loaded up. That's a major plot point in ATLA. And a lot of time
>what people who have those sorts of parent issues do is let them
>unduly color their own interactions with their kids.

Mm, perhaps. It's consistent with other findings, since it often seems as though Failed Parenting is sort of a recurring theme in TLOK. The Beifong sisters and their upside-down world where being a cop is a disappointment and running with a Triad is all fun and games as long as nobody loses an eye. Hiroshi Sato and his evidently genuine surprise that his little girl wasn't up for climbing on the Murder Express with Daddy. Growing Up Supervillain with Tarrlok and Noatak. Aang's children having been obviously estranged for years when they first appear all together. At least one of Tenzin's kids is a future serial killer. And of course there's the towering triumph of parenthood that was Stalag Avatar. It's a little bit sad that this is a setting in which Bolin and Mako's parents get an honorable mention because all they did wrong was get murdered.

>In Toph's case, that seems to have manifested in a desire to validate
>her kids life choices and encourage and protect them no matter
>what
.

Well... one of them, anyway.

>so for me, the out of
>character moment wasn't when she covered up her kids arrest record; it
>was when she felt guilty enough about it to bail on the force a year
>later.

Well, see, it's that fruit-of-the-cockeyed-tree problem again. Toph as a cop is ridiculous. Toph as a bent cop makes a certain kind of sense, but only in the context that she doesn't work as a cop in the first place. If you can somehow talk yourself into believing that she would be one, then it becomes difficult to countenance the notion that she'd be so blatantly corrupt. At least if you're me.

>Tangent: while I'm sure we're all disappointed she didn't breed with
>Sokka (or if she did, they for some baffling reason kept it secret)

Eh, I suspect they're just being coy about both daughters' origins so they don't have to put up with Fandom Tsuris.

>I think we can all agree it is entirely in-character for Toph to have
>had two kids with two different dudes who either died soon after or
>she declined to keep in touch with, right?

Maybe, but I'm not sure I'm coming to that conclusion from the same direction, because...

>Because I sort of envision
>Toph as having made a lot of EXTREMELY questionable and/or dangerous
>life choices in her teens and twenties.

... I'm not sure I buy Lin and Suyin as products of simple recklessness, but I can clearly picture a scenario in which she made a calculated decision and said to one or more gentlemen of her acquaintance**, "What I require from you at this time is 0.35 fluid ounces of genetic material and to get the hell out of my house." In that scenario, Suyin's probably mistaken when she says she and Lin never knew their fathers. She just didn't know they were their fathers.

--G.
* Oh, and then later on we learn that in order to get to the Big City in the first place, she didn't just ditch some kind of weird martial arts school, she actually had to escape from a fanatical cult that had held her prisoner since she was four. Korra's backstory gets more and more brilliant all the time.
** For example, Sokka. I mean, look closely at teenage Suyin. Or Zuko, from whom Lin clearly gets her winning disposition, amazing luck, and vulnerability to facial scarring. I'm probably just kidding about that last part. Lin's father could just as easily be Aang, in which case everyone breathed a huge sigh of relief when Tenzin dumped her. I'm definitely kidding about that part. I hope the hell I'm kidding about that part. I think I just gave myself the jibblies.

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Gryphonadmin
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17. "RE: Chapter 6 and 7"
In response to message #2
 
   >"She was so guilt-ridden about what she did to protect you, she didn't
>feel worthy of her badge!" Well, that might be because she
>wasn't.
I think you may have that one surrounded, Lin, that's
>some excellent police work.

I was just re-watching this bit of the episode to double-check another thing, and suddenly realized that Suyin's cheap shot that starts the fight is totally cart-before-the-horse. Tenzin didn't dump Lin because she was a bitter loner; she's a bitter loner because her relationship with Tenzin was her last shot at not being one and he dumped her.

(His actual reason for dumping her was established back in Book 1 and is frankly unworthy, but then again, hey, Tenzin.)

--G.
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Gryphonadmin
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6. "The Digital Thing"
In response to message #0
 
   Traitor said:

>Uh, that kind of implies there's going to be a Book 4. I mean,
>I know they're working on it, but the show's had kind of abysmal
>ratings and NickToons pulled, like, the last four episodes. They could
>be going digital,

and in fact they are. The rest of Book 3, anyway. Book 4, I've had no definite word on (I think something's happening at Nerd Prom, but I don't have any contacts there any more), but I'm given to understand it's mostly finished, and, well... Nickelodeon couldn't find its ass with a Boy Scout troop and a map, but I have to believe they are at least such cheap bastards that they won't scrap something they've already paid people to make, even if they aren't going to put it on cable.

--G.
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pjmoyermoderator
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7. "RE: The Digital Thing"
In response to message #6
 
   The distilled spoiler-free report from SDCC's Korra Panel on friday July 25th:

http://secondhermione.tumblr.com/post/92857428208/korra-panel-spoiler-free-version

--- Philip






Philip J. Moyer
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Gryphonadmin
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9. "RE: The Digital Thing"
In response to message #7
 
   A few thoughts on
>The distilled spoiler-free report from SDCC's Korra Panel on friday
>July 25th:

>Apparently, Nick sees shows like Korra as part of a new model for distribution.

(Ghostbusters mode: engaged.)

We're ready to believe you.

>Janet loves Korra despite her hard-headedness

"Despite"? Really? Hmm.

>a fan-submitted question about a Varrick/Lin blind date

Please, no Toph jokes.

Also, hang on, record scratch, hold the phone, I just noticed this:

>concept art for the Red Lotus

... you're friggin' kidding me, that's what the Legion of Doom is actually called? Oh for fuck's sake. Not only is that the name of a drink, it's - hum. Well played, canon! I've been expecting you to screw up my stuff from any number of directions, but that, that I was not expecting. :)

--G.
For the record, Kei is not a member of that Order of the Red Lotus. She doesn't get along well with dipshit philosophizers.
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pjmoyermoderator
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10. "RE: The Digital Thing"
In response to message #9
 
   >>concept art for the Red Lotus
>
>... you're friggin' kidding me, that's what the Legion of Doom is
>actually called? Oh for fuck's sake. Not only is that the name of a
>drink, it's - hum. Well played, canon! I've been expecting
>you to screw up my stuff from any number of directions, but
>that, that I was not expecting. :)

Actually, that fits. According to http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/b_lotus.htm , while the White Lotus is "mental purity and spiritual perfection, and the pacification of our nature." (ie, what the original Order of the White Lotus represented during its secret days), the Red Lotus is "the lotus of love, compassion, passion, activity and all the qualities of the heart." Now, while -this- particular Red Lotus does not appear to ascribe to any of those qualities (save that for a bunch of villains, they get along among themselves better than Team Avatar at times), the fandom is now starting to wonder if they're meant to be in opposition of the White Lotus Order proper -- or possibly even a renegade offshoot of them.

The flip side being, of course, that Korra embodies the qualities of the red lotus a LOT more than whatever the White Lotus tried to drill into her....

It's also visually supported from the teasers : http://ikkinthekitsune.tumblr.com/post/91849792448/hi-i-noticed-most-guys-on-tumblr-yourself-included

(the fandom first found out about the name when Nick put up a video of the four villains and people looking in the HTML source saw that the video file name included "Red_Lotus". At which point they started puzzling out the meaning.)

--- Philip
(So if not a Red Lotus, would that make Korra a blue Lotus or a Pink Lotus? I suppose, blend them together, you get the Purple Lotus...)






Philip J. Moyer
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Gryphonadmin
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11. "RE: The Digital Thing"
In response to message #10
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-14 AT 03:17 PM (EDT)
 
>Actually, that fits.

I wasn't disputing that, just reacting to the fact that of all the bits of Legacy I was expecting to get boned by the canon, the "my wife's a member of an organization called the Order of the Red Lotus" joke in AiNA was not on the list. :)

>The flip side being, of course, that Korra embodies the qualities of
>the red lotus a LOT more than whatever the White Lotus tried to drill
>into her....

Mm, yes, I'm sure the writers are going for irony there. I mean, it's been obvious all along that Korra's inherent nature is a woeful mismatch for the White Lotus way, and all they accomplished in 13 years of trying to change that was waste their time and her childhood.

Y'know, the more the writers reveal about her backstory, the more I have to admire Korra's strength of character. For all that the show often seems like it's trying to pitch it to us as a flaw in her personality ("oh, she's so headstrong, she's such a rebel"), her dogged strength of will means that, even though they've now revealed that she's basically one of those snatched-and-indoctrinated child-soldier types,* she still managed to come out the other end as a (slightly broken, admittedly) version of herself and not the serenely obedient little popsy they evidently wanted to make her into. I'm never gonna be prepared to think that's a bad thing.

Flip side of that is that even if she's personally more in line with the Red Lotus philosophy, the way they're going about approaching her means they'll be no more successful than their opposite numbers were. You just can't make that girl do anything. :)

(Besides, their interpretation of their own philosophy is obviously pretty corrupt at this point. It's the lotus of love, passion, and compassion, not the lotus of blowing shit up and threatening to stab UPS drivers in the kidneys, you idiots.)

>(So if not a Red Lotus, would that make Korra a blue Lotus or a
>Pink Lotus? I suppose, blend them together, you get the Purple
>Lotus...)

Well, my own view on the matter is that Korra's an Inuk, and as such not really subject to all that Chinese business, but don't go by me. I'm pretty sure the show isn't going to. :)

--G.
* For the record, pretty sure this is an unintended consequence of a poorly-thought-out design decision, not DiMartino and Konietzko's actual intent.
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StClair
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12. "RE: The Digital Thing"
In response to message #10
 
  
>Actually, that fits. According to
>http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/b_lotus.htm , while the
>White Lotus is "mental purity and spiritual perfection, and the
>pacification of our nature." (ie, what the original Order of the White
>Lotus represented during its secret days), the Red Lotus is "the lotus
>of love, compassion, passion, activity and all the qualities of the
>heart."

... good lord, it's all that bullshit "FEELINGS ARE BAD" Manichean dualism that completely fucked up the Jedi Order, all over again.

And which Korra, like Utena, completely disproves by example.


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Gryphonadmin
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13. "RE: The Digital Thing"
In response to message #12
 
   >... good lord, it's all that bullshit "FEELINGS ARE BAD" Manichean
>dualism that completely fucked up the Jedi Order, all over again.
>
>And which Korra, like Utena, completely disproves by example.

Yep. They have a lot in common! Source material mired in cod pop-culture Buddhism, people constantly trying to push them into boxes, being better people than their worlds really deserve, woefully ill-chosen first boyfriends (admittedly quite a lot more woeful in Utena's case)... it shouldn't be surprising that they took so little time to become sisters-in-word-and-deed (as the Asgardian phrase goes).

--G.
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Mephronmoderator
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14. "RE: The Digital Thing"
In response to message #10
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-14 AT 03:11 PM (EDT)
 
>(So if not a Red Lotus, would that make Korra a blue Lotus or a
>Pink Lotus? I suppose, blend them together, you get the Purple
>Lotus...)

Korra is very obviously a Lotus Esprit.

Good-looking and capable of amazing things, but liable to crash and explode spectacularly and insanely hard to control.

--
Geoff Depew - Darth Mephron
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Gryphonadmin
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Jul-27-14, 03:14 PM (EDT)
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15. "RE: The Digital Thing"
In response to message #14
 
   >Korra is very obviously a Lotus Esprit.
>
>Good-looking and capable of amazing things, but liable to crash and
>explode spectacularly and insanely hard to control.

And submersible!

--G.
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Gryphonadmin
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8. "FYI: Chapter 8"
In response to message #0
 
   I do have it. I didn't watch it tonight because I wanted to wait until I had a field report from someone who had, and is more tolerant of Dramatic Tension than I am, as to whether the obvious cliffhanger implied by the capsule description on my TiVo (man, last dance for TiVo) would make me angry.

I have been assured that it prrrrobably won't, which is... well, I'll probably watch it tomorrow.

--G.
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Gryphonadmin
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16. "Chapter 8"
In response to message #8
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jul-31-14 AT 08:08 PM (EDT)
 
Hmm. All right, a few thoughts.

Creators, meet me at Camera 3. OK. The "metalbending champion" scene? Yeah! That's basically what I want Korra's default setting to be, not something that's doled out in stingy little bites between beatings and tranquilizer darts. It's been 34 episodes, you guys, can we have that now? Please. Tell me that's where you're heading with the ending of this episode, and not just setting her up for another fall. Tell me it's finally time for some legendary. This is probably the last time I'm going to let myself believe you're gonna do it, so make it count, fellas.

OK, sorry everybody, where was I? Well, the kidnap plan was... cheap... which is about what I would expect from villains of the Legion of Doom's caliber.* (One wonders how it would've worked out for them if they had succeeded, actually. I suspect it would've been a bit like that one Road Runner cartoon where Wile E. Coyote actually caught him, only to discover that that was basically the worst thing that could possibly have happened.)

The show's still leaning really heavily on the Mystery of the Legion of Doom's Motivations, which is kind of a shortfall for me since I still don't give a damn. They do not engage me.

Also, I'm really starting to wonder about the intelligence of these kids if they needed Varrick to point out that Sinister Gandhi was the painfully obvious gap in the evidence chain. Don't go by me, though, I've disliked that guy since the moment he appeared. Those serene fuckers are always the ones who are going to stab you.

Is it bothering anyone else that Asami hasn't done anything for three or four episodes now other than stand around looking amazing? She's good at that, don't get me wrong, but after her really promising start to the season it's like she's lapsing back into a purely decorative role. Standing back and let the benders do the heavy lifting. She's barely even talked since "The Metal Clan".

On the other hand, I'm quite pleased that they didn't take the opportunity to make this episode and the next one into a refry of the "Tarrlok makes Korra his meat puppet and locks her in a box" thing from Book 1. That was lame the first time (and technically that wasn't even the first time - they first played the "villain immobilizes Korra and mocks her helplessness" card in the fourth episode ever). I only hope that they follow through with her going on the warpath properly this time. Keep in mind that the above revoltin' development was the end of the sequence of events when she shook off her dismay and got proactive in Book 1: losing a fight to Tarrlok and ending up in a box. That is historically how being a properly heroic hero has been rewarded in The Legend of Korra. The way this episode wraps up is a hopeful sign that that might finally be changing. Better two seasons late, as they say, than not at all.

Her end run at the tail of the episode notwithstanding, Korra caved in way too easily to Lin's bullying. I really want her to stop listening to people who are obviously wrong, and are probably holding her back to service their own insecurities. It's old.

On the other hand, I find it so difficult to trust new characters on this show that I'm simultaneously suspecting Suyin's "Hey, no, you're totes right, go get 'em, tigershark" thing at the end is a total setup. "I trusted him! ... Not to screw this up!" We'll see. Mainly it's just that I've never really considered any Beifong completely trustworthy. Or maybe it was that transparent little bit of theater where she volunteered to be interrogated. If they were both in on it, it would've looked exactly the same...

Fingers crossed. The next episode's title does not exactly promise triumph and action, but even so. This episode ended with Korra the way I've always wanted her to be - literally in the saddle, taking charge of her ridiculous life situation and out to get some shit done. I only hope - and I do still hope - the people making the show actually let her do it this time.

--G.
* Fuck it, I'm not calling them the Red Lotus.
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Gryphonadmin
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18. "RE: Chapter 8"
In response to message #16
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jul-31-14 AT 10:36 PM (EDT)
 
>Creators, meet me at Camera 3. OK. The "metalbending champion"
>scene? Yeah! That's basically what I want Korra's default
>setting
to be, not something that's doled out in stingy little
>bites between beatings and tranquilizer darts. It's been 34
>episodes,
you guys, can we have that now? Please.

Oh, hey, I just happened to think, you might want visual aids. I can give you visual aids. Picture's worth a thousand, right? As a matter of fact, there are two frames in this very episode that perfectly summarize what I'm on about here - makes it all really simple. Attendez-vous, s'il vous plait:

You need to start providing no more of THIS shit and way, WAY more of this.

Immediately.

That is all. Carry on.

--G.
Also, I'll be requiring at least one minute of Pabu doing the weasel war dance in an upcoming episode. See to it.
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SpottedKitty
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Aug-02-14, 01:38 AM (EDT)
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21. "RE: Chapter 8"
In response to message #18
 
   >Also, I'll be requiring at least one minute of Pabu doing the weasel war dance in an upcoming episode. See to it.

<snrk> I've seen clips from various wildlife programmes of a whole family of stoats behaving just like that travelling along a country path. I usually start laughing about ten seconds in.

--
Unable to save the day: File is read-only.


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Gryphonadmin
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20. "Chapter 9"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-01-14 AT 10:06 PM (EDT)
 
Oh, for fuck's

sake,

they've done it to her (and, by extension, me) again.

Mnnnnnhhhh.

--G.
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VoidRandom
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Aug-02-14, 05:56 AM (EDT)
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22. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #20
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-14 AT 06:53 AM (EDT)
 
The "Don't DO THIS" image has pushed me over the line into commenting, the Korra in that image looks like a junkie who has just fixed, except with the hypodermic in the (slightly) wrong place (what a remarkable coincidence in arm alignment). It got me thinking about LoK when I was reading some unrelated critical analysis.

From what I'm hearing here, it occurred to me that LoK is written mostly in the modern literature mode. You know: novel of character, a tendency to write tragic plots, etc. A compact if snarky summary from <1>:

> Literary status envy is the condition of people who think that all genre fiction would
> be improved by adopting the devices and priorities of late 19th- and then
> 20th-century literary fiction. Such people prize the “novel of character” and
> stylistic sophistication above all else. They have almost no interest in ideas
> outside of esthetic theory and a very narrow range of socio-political criticism.
> They think competent characters and happy endings are jejune, unsophisticated,
> artistically uninteresting. They love them some angst.

Obviously LoK is a comic book and animated series, not a novel. And many of it's failings are apparently not stylistic but simple incompetence (eg. Being the living definition of a Story Blivet). But otherwise does this description make sense? Would it help your appreciation(?) to think of it like this? Or would it just make more sense to watch LoK in batches, so as to minimize the total amount of time you have to spend P.O'd at the writers and letting it affect your judgement on your writing? Which, given the thread over in SotS, I think it it probably is.

<1> http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6085 paragraph 11

-VR
(for Phil) Sometimes the light you seek is an oncoming train.
"They copied all they could follow, but they couldn't copy my mind,
And I left 'em sweating and stealing a year and a half behind."


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Gryphonadmin
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24. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #22
 
   >> They think competent characters and happy endings are jejune, unsophisticated,
>> artistically uninteresting. They love them some angst.
>
>Obviously LoK is a comic book

?

>and animated series, not a novel. And
>many of it's failings are apparently not stylistic but simple
>incompetence (eg. Being the living definition of a Story Blivet). But
>otherwise does this description make sense?

... sort of? I mean, I suspect there's an element of something like that involved, in that they are attempting to make Korra More Grown-Up than Avatar was, but are burdened with a "modern literature" sense of what that actually means. On the other hand, I'm reasonably convinced that they think Books 1 and 2 have had happy endings,* which is its own strangeness.

>Would it help your
>appreciation(?) to think of it like this?

I doubt it. Even if I agreed with the analysis (which I'm not sure I do; see above), knowing why they won't let her kick the football wouldn't change the fact that they aren't letting her kick the football, you know? :)

>Or would it just make more
>sense to watch LoK in batches, so as to minimize the total amount of
>time you have to spend P.O'd at the writers

Heh, in fairness, Phil did warn me. I watched it anyway, because I had enough going on that I figured it would at least give me something else to throw mental popcorn at.

>and letting it affect your
>judgement on your writing? Which, given the thread over in SotS, I
>think it it probably is.

I'm not sure this is true; it may be the other way around. I was already annoyed about the S4->S5 thing before I decided, "Well, what the hell, it can't be worse than dealing with this" and watched last night's episode.

--G.
* This in spite of the fact that the "positive" outcome of Book 1 is basically an unexpected-by-the-characters last-second return to the status quo courtesy of a wizard, and a grand total of one good thing happened to Korra in the entire course of Book 2 (and it was presented in the last episode as a bad thing that made her cry).
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mdg1
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26. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #24
 
   >>> They think competent characters and happy endings are jejune, unsophisticated,
>>> artistically uninteresting. They love them some angst.
>>
>>Obviously LoK is a comic book
>
>?

There are Avatar comics. Not about Korra, but still.

Mario


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Gryphonadmin
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27. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #26
 
   >>>Obviously LoK is a comic book
>>
>>?
>
>There are Avatar comics.

Well, yes, I knew that. They have their own problems, but

>Not about Korra, but still.

hence my confusion.

--G.
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VoidRandom
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35. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #24
 
   >>Obviously LoK is a comic book
>
>?

That is me getting confused. I'd thought I'd heard there was a comic but I'm probably confusing it with AtLA. I don't think it affects the general argument.

>... sort of? I mean, I suspect there's an element of something
>like that involved, in that they are attempting to make
>Korra More Grown-Up than Avatar was, but are burdened
>with a "modern literature" sense of what that actually means. On the
>other hand, I'm reasonably convinced that they think Books 1 and 2
>have had happy endings,* which is its own strangeness.

I don't think the two halves of the paragraph above actually contradict each other. Remove "On the other hand," and replace it with "For example," and it still makes sense and would be a stronger description. If we have modern lit writers attempting to write genre fiction without a good understanding of what that means mechanically and stylistically (and possibly with a little contempt thrown in), I see no requirement that their "happy endings" be any better than the rest. Add a dash of flat out incompetence and we get to:

>* This in spite of the fact that the "positive" outcome
>of Book 1 is basically an unexpected-by-the-characters last-second
>return to the status quo courtesy of a wizard, and a grand total of
>one good thing happened to Korra in the entire course of Book 2 (and
>it was presented in the last episode as a bad thing that made
>her cry).

So, it's a full on Deus Ex Machina reset for Book 1!? Did they at least lower the wizard from the overhead? If you're gonna do a BS move like that, you may as well signal you know you're doing it. (Judges will also accept raising the wizard through a hole in the floor or riding in on a robot.) This may be a result of them trying to be literary by inverting tropes while nominally holding to the form. (She won, but she doesn't know it! Aren't we daring?)

>I doubt it. Even if I agreed with the analysis (which I'm not sure I
>do; see above), knowing why they won't let her kick the
>football wouldn't change the fact that they aren't letting her kick
>the football,
you know? :)

Makes sense to me. I think you've established your preference for the genre style along with your superior abilities in writing it. Some people really like the lit fic approach though and it can be done better and worse.

>I'm not sure this is true; it may be the other way around. I was
>already annoyed about the S4->S5 thing before I decided, "Well,
>what the hell, it can't be worse than dealing with this" and
>watched last night's episode.

I'm wondering because your proposed replacement idea is right out of the lit fic playbook as well as going against type for the characters involved. I'm sure you are in a plotting corner, anything as complex as UF can't help but generate plotting corners no matter how much effort you put into it. Your proposed solution is somewhat cure-worse-than-disease, and I'm not sure you would have gone there without "help". (Sleep deprivation isn't good either...wasn't there a story with that as a plot element?... ;-)

-VR
For that matter, Real Life is full of plotting corners. It resolves them by letting to the characters do their thing.
"They copied all they could follow, but they couldn't copy my mind,
And I left 'em sweating and stealing a year and a half behind."


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Gryphonadmin
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38. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #35
 
   >If we have modern lit writers attempting to write genre
>fiction without a good understanding of what that means mechanically
>and stylistically (and possibly with a little contempt thrown in)

Mm, no, I wouldn't go that far. I am willing to extend the belief that they are at least acting in good faith, and not holding their own creations in contempt; they just don't seem to know quite what the hell they're doing a lot of the time.

>>This in spite of the fact that the "positive" outcome
>>of Book 1 is basically an unexpected-by-the-characters last-second
>>return to the status quo courtesy of a wizard
>
>So, it's a full on Deus Ex Machina reset for Book 1!? Did they
>at least lower the wizard from the overhead?

Sort of, he appeared in a spirit vision.

Basically - oh hey, spoilers for Book 1 - Korra spends the first season running like hell to try and stay ahead of and, she hopes, eventually defeat a dude who can strip other benders of their powers permanently. Since he has minions who can paralyze people by punching them, and anyway can get all puppeteer on anybody's ass at any time he likes (unlike virtually anybody else in the history of ever, surprise!), he finds this vocation trivially easy. In the fourth episode of the show, he had his gimp minions (and they literally are, they're wearing leather bitch masks) hold Korra down and tells her that he's saving her for last, then leaves her in a crumpled heap, not further molested but weeping in terror.

They have two or three more encounters like that over the course of the series, wherein he easily gets the upper hand with his cheating-ass powers and his cheating-ass minions but opts for taunting her and letting her go. (He seems to think it's funny that she thinks she's pre-emptively hunting him when he's really just playing with her and could take her any time he wanted. Seriously, the only way Amon's take-your-bending-away shtick could be any more thinly-veiled a metaphor for serial rape is if he actually had to use his dick to do it. I tend to bang on (er as it were) about this because it boggles my mind, it's so goddamned inexplicable and triggery.)

In the last episode, after a completely non-epic confrontation, he follows through, but he misses airbending, so she's able to blow him out a window and they both escape. He's subsequently murdered by someone else in a completely irrelevant side scene. (As another icky little aside to the above, Korra never learns what happened to him, and as far as she knows, he could still be out there right now, plotting to show up and violate her again someday.)

Then there's a short scene where the greatest healer in the Southern Water Tribe tells her there's nothing she can do for her, and Korra is now history's first one-element Avatar - and it's an element she doesn't particularly like or know how to use, since it only unlocked for her after Amon broke the other three. So she wanders off into the wilderness and may or may not contemplate suicide. (People suspect this because she spends a while crying at the edge of a really high cliff, and she is, though it isn't said in so many words, perfectly well aware that she wouldd have to die in order to let the Avatar Spirit proceed to someone whose bending talent wasn't irreparably broken.)

And then the spirit of the Avatar from the previous show appears, trots out some amazingly trite and patronizing thing about how you have to hit bottom before you can start back up, and turns the other three elements back on for her. And that's the end of the season.

Yeah.

Now, in fairness, I'm told this is at least partly because they ran out of time - the first and finest example of the "story blivet" effect the series has suffered from - inasmuch as they had to prepare the first 12 episodes as if they were the only 12 episodes. But still, I mean, what? Not only is that the oogiest plotline in the history of ostensibly-for-children television anyway, it is literally a wizard-fixed-it ending for sufficient values of "wizard".

>If you're gonna do a BS
>move like that, you may as well signal you know you're doing it.

In fairness, it could be argued that they did.

>I'm wondering because your proposed replacement idea is right out of
>the lit fic playbook

How dare you, sir!

>as well as going against type for the characters involved.

The funny thing about that is that I agree, but even at the time there were people who argued exactly the opposite. "They wouldn't do that, you're just making them do whatever gives you the most jollies," in essence.

>Your proposed solution is somewhat
>cure-worse-than-disease, and I'm not sure you would have gone there
>without "help".

Maybe, but on the other hand, I've always had a slightly dark streak. I think it's one of the reasons I detest stories like that so much, is because there's a little bit of me that's attracted to them. It's like that well-documented psychological effect where you're standing on a high place and you think, I'm not suicidal in anyway, but... what if I jumped?

Strangely, the developments at the end of Symphony No. 4 were in some ways a reaction to a moment like that which came along at the end of Symphony No. 2, when it looked for all the world like the first great love of Corwin's life had come to a dead end he had helped construct himself. (Part of some people's objections to Vortigern's 2 was that they felt it diminished his heroism in having done so, even though he obviously couldn't have known at the time - shit, I didn't know at the time - that it was all eventually going to be better.)

>For that matter, Real Life is full of plotting corners.
>It resolves them by letting to the characters do their thing.

"Time travel's not possible. The paradoxes - "

"Resolve themselves, for the most part."

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
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VoidRandom
Member since Dec-9-02
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39. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #38
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-14 AT 03:50 AM (EDT)
 
EDIT: Pronoun trouble strikes again. Clarified last paragraph.
>>If we have modern lit writers attempting to write genre
>>fiction without a good understanding of what that means mechanically
>>and stylistically (and possibly with a little contempt thrown in)
>
>Mm, no, I wouldn't go that far. I am willing to extend the belief
>that they are at least acting in good faith, and not holding their own
>creations in contempt; they just don't seem to know quite what the
>hell they're doing a lot of the time.

Not contempt for their own work...contempt for the conventions and mechanics of genre fiction. "How hard could it be?" is a form of mild contempt and more what I think might be in play here. I'm sure you are perfectly aware how much trouble you can get into by starting a project with that attitude.

>>So, it's a full on Deus Ex Machina reset for Book 1!? Did they
>>at least lower the wizard from the overhead?
>
>Sort of, he appeared in a spirit vision.

So, not really then. Deus Ex lampshading really needs an actual machine somewhere to be complete. Points for using a local weakly godlike entity though.

<Story summary snipped...>
>
>Yeah.

Wow.

>Now, in fairness, I'm told this is at least partly because they ran
>out of time - the first and finest example of the "story blivet"
>effect the series has suffered from - inasmuch as they had to prepare
>the first 12 episodes as if they were the only 12 episodes.
>But still, I mean, what? Not only is that the oogiest plotline in the
>history of ostensibly-for-children television anyway, it is literally
>a wizard-fixed-it ending for sufficient values of "wizard".

Given the summary above, I'm not sure they can be excused on these grounds. I, myself, can think of a couple ways the ending could have gone that wouldn't have required the full Deus Ex treatment.
I think this reinforces my "How hard can it be?" musing. Doing it using properly understood genre convention would have made their lives easier.

>>I'm wondering because your proposed replacement idea is right out of
>>the lit fic playbook
>
>How dare you, sir!

I do so dare, sir. I will always call a "yard and garden digging implement" a f**king shovel, if it be so. Fortunately you seem to have come to your senses.

>The funny thing about that is that I agree, but even at the time there
>were people who argued exactly the opposite. "They wouldn't do that,
>you're just making them do whatever gives you the most jollies," in
>essence.

For me, the story as written seemed right because I was in a similar situation (No, none of us were gods or demons.) and the emotional notes it hit resonated with me.

>Maybe, but on the other hand, I've always had a slightly dark streak.
>I think it's one of the reasons I detest stories like that so much, is
>because there's a little bit of me that's attracted to them. It's
>like that well-documented psychological effect where you're standing
>on a high place and you think, I'm not suicidal in anyway, but...
>what if I jumped?

>
>Strangely, the developments at the end of Symphony No. 4 were in some
>ways a reaction to a moment like that which came along at the end of
>Symphony No. 2, when it looked for all the world like the first great
>love of Corwin's life had come to a dead end he had helped construct
>himself. (Part of some people's objections to Vortigern's 2
>was that they felt it diminished his heroism in having done so, even
>though he obviously couldn't have known at the time - shit, I
>didn't know at the time - that it was all eventually going to be
>better.)

Corwin and Utena would have continued to suffer with great nobility for forever. That point was made, it isn't diminished by later story developments that make it unnecessary and possibly harmful. However, Anthy (and Akio) were driving the later elements. Perhaps you were too subtle with Anthy? Or perhaps they the forum critics were just too obtuse to appreciate her growth and development? (dare I call it "sexist"?) Or maybe their horizons were limited as to the relationship possibilities by their cultural blinders. For that matter, I'm not sure where it says that heroes have to suffer to be heroic...if there is no suffering it does get a bit flat, but the same can be said of all suffering, all the time.

-VR
Call it "Dark Knight Syndrome", the literary wasting disease.
"They copied all they could follow, but they couldn't copy my mind,
And I left 'em sweating and stealing a year and a half behind."


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Gryphonadmin
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40. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #39
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-14 AT 08:23 PM (EDT)
 
>Given the summary above, I'm not sure they can be excused on these
>grounds. I, myself, can think of a couple ways the ending could have
>gone that wouldn't have required the full Deus Ex treatment.

I would personally have found it much more satisfactory - with the caveat that I deeply dislike the A-plot that led to that moment in the first place, but - if she had simply had a personal my-life-is-fucked epiphany and turned the broken shit back on herself because she's the Avatar. That's no less of a "someone waves hand, all is repaired" ending, but it moves Korra forward toward an understanding of her own abilities and provides her with evidence - sorely lacking to that point - that she can, in fact, accomplish things. It's just... Grodd help me, here comes a buzzword, but, it's just agency.

(I've seen it argued that this is, in fact, what happened, because Aang is just her in a previous life, but I don't buy that, and it's actually not how the Avatar Spirit works anyway, according to ill-advised developments in the second series. I'll use this stuff against them if I have to. :)

>Perhaps you were too
>subtle with Anthy? Or perhaps they were just too obtuse to appreciate
>her growth and development? (dare I call it "sexist"?) Or maybe their
>horizons were limited as to the relationship possibilities by their
>cultural blinders.

All three of those factors were in play (although I'm not sure it's fair to say that it's sexist, at least in Utena's case - her ingrained assumption that Anthy is only saying what the people she's talking to want to hear, that she still has to fight against occasionally in 2410, was built over a long time and with a lot of empirical evidence. It was absolutely true when she formed it.

Anyway, in-story, Anthy herself has acknowledged at several points that she was too subtle and too patient for everyone's good. It's not a mistake she intends to make again...

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
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VoidRandom
Member since Dec-9-02
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Aug-02-14, 09:21 PM (EDT)
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43. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #40
 
   >I would personally have found it much more satisfactory - with the
>caveat that I deeply dislike the A-plot that led to that moment in the
>first place, but - if she had simply had a personal
>my-life-is-fucked epiphany and turned the broken shit back on
>herself because she's the Avatar. That's no less of a
>"someone waves hand, all is repaired" ending, but it moves Korra
>forward toward an understanding of her own abilities and provides her
>with evidence - sorely lacking to that point - that she can, in fact,
>accomplish things. It's just... Grodd help me, here comes a buzzword,
>but, it's just agency.

Agency?! Heavens, you can't have that in modern lit...that would imply that things aren't futile.

And she doesn't have to get everything back all at once. You could leave a couple things hanging for the next book.

>All three of those factors were in play (although I'm not sure it's
>fair to say that it's sexist, at least in Utena's case - her ingrained
>assumption that Anthy is only saying what the people she's talking to
>want to hear, that she still has to fight against occasionally in
>2410, was built over a long time and with a lot of empirical
>evidence. It was absolutely true when she formed it.
>
>Anyway, in-story, Anthy herself has acknowledged at several points
>that she was too subtle and too patient for everyone's good. It's not
>a mistake she intends to make again...

I wan't referring to the other characters, but rather the forum critics. I'm not sure they actually understood what they were reading...

-VR
At least in the crypto-lesbian criticism, there were lesbians.
"They copied all they could follow, but they couldn't copy my mind,
And I left 'em sweating and stealing a year and a half behind."


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Gryphonadmin
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29. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #22
 
   Oh, also, just to be fair about it,

>The "Don't DO THIS" image has pushed me over the line into commenting,
>the Korra in that image looks like a junkie who has just fixed, except
>with the hypodermic in the (slightly) wrong place (what a remarkable
>coincidence in arm alignment).

The dart's actually in her leg.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
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zgryphon at that email service Google has
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VoidRandom
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Aug-03-14, 01:18 AM (EDT)
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45. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #29
 
   >Oh, also, just to be fair about it,
>
>>The "Don't DO THIS" image has pushed me over the line into commenting,
>>the Korra in that image looks like a junkie who has just fixed, except
>>with the hypodermic in the (slightly) wrong place (what a remarkable
>>coincidence in arm alignment).
>
>The dart's actually in her leg.

Huh...I thought I'd put a sarcasm marker on that parenthesized comment.
I know it's the leg...but the artist's have made an interesting choice in placing the arm. Possibly a case of BSnP avoidance, possibly coincidence.

-VR
"Heroin? It's a bit like the good parts of being dead."
"They copied all they could follow, but they couldn't copy my mind,
And I left 'em sweating and stealing a year and a half behind."


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Gryphonadmin
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46. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #45
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-14 AT 01:32 AM (EDT)
 
>I know it's the leg...but the artist's have made an interesting choice
>in placing the arm. Possibly a case of BSnP avoidance, possibly
>coincidence.

I think it's Still Frame Syndrome (and I thought that by "slightly the wrong place" you meant it was too far down her forearm), and accentuated by the fact that one of the side effects of shirshu venom poisoning is dull surprise face.

Anyway, rest assured, shirshu venom is not in any way recreational. It's basically curare, except apparently you don't stop breathing, which is nice. Regardless, it causes total locked-in syndrome, which isn't my idea of a good high.

(Yes, that's right, the whole time Korra's being hauled around like a ragdoll by the Legion of Doom in Chapter 8, she's completely conscious of having once again been rendered utterly helpless, lest you think she might at least get a pass on a little bit of psychological torture now and again.)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
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mdg1
Member since Aug-25-04
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Aug-02-14, 06:37 AM (EDT)
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23. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #20
 
   At some point, Ben, you need to just give up and let them burn...

(I did it with DC & Marvel this year, officially. Two more single issues, and I'm out).

Mario


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Gryphonadmin
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25. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #23
 
   >At some point, Ben, you need to just give up and let them burn...

I know, right? And yet. And yet.

It's like being madly in love with a girl whose family you can't stand. Where else are you going to see her?

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
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zgryphon at that email service Google has
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Gryphonadmin
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28. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #20
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-14 AT 09:32 AM (EDT)
 
>they've done it to her (and, by extension, me) again.

To continue with the picture's-worth-a-thousand theme from last week, you will recall that my examples were,

>You need to start providing
>no more of THIS shit and
>way, WAY more of this.

So what did this week's episode end with?

This.

I dunno, man, you tell me. Kick the football, Korra Brown!

N.B. Phil is convinced that there will be a payoff next week that actually makes the above worth it, and that if I had waited for it, this wouldn't bother me so much. If that's actually the case, I am, like any good Saganite, prepared to stand corrected... but also, like any good Saganite, skeptical about promises of miracles. :)

--G.
Added bonus: That's her payoff for being heroically badass back at the end of Chapter 4. Remember what I said a while ago about how actually managing to be a hero gets rewarded on The Legend of Korra? Yeah.
-><-
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zgryphon at that email service Google has
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pjmoyermoderator
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30. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #28
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-14 AT 09:33 AM (EDT)
 
>N.B. Phil is convinced that there will be a payoff next week
>that actually makes the above worth it, and that if I had waited for
>it, this wouldn't bother me so much. If that's actually the case, I
>am, like any good Saganite, prepared to stand corrected... but also,
>like any good Saganite, skeptical about promises of miracles. :)

Here's the first teaser of episode 10, "Long Live The Queen" : http://iruka-2013.tumblr.com/post/93586872052/dongbufeng-preview-clip-from-long-live-the

--- Philip
(all hail queen asami.)






Philip J. Moyer
Contributing Writer, Editor and Artist (and Moderator) -- Eyrie Productions, Unlimited
CEO of MTS, High Poobah Of Artwork, and High Priest Of the Church Of Aerianne -- Magnetic Terrapin Studios
"Insert Pithy Comment Here"
Fandoms -- Fanart -- Fan Meta Discussions


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Gryphonadmin
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31. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #30
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-14 AT 09:58 AM (EDT)
 
>Here's the first teaser of episode 10, "Long Live The Queen" :

Hmm.

All right. I think the point has to stand that, especially to someone who was already tired to the point of despair of seeing Korra get kicked, the end of Chapter 9 was shit - but I will say, in public and out loud, that that's very promising. Why couldn't they have ended Chapter 9 there? On an upward note promising awesome galpower action next time around, instead of with Asami chained to a wall and Korra trussed up like Hannibal goddam Lecter (and strapped to an appliance-moving dolly, I've just noticed - nice touch)? Would that really have been so hard?

Anyway. At this point, they've set up "hey, awesomeness incoming" situations like that and then pulled the rug out so many times that even now I'm having a hard time getting fully comfortable... but it's promising. And I like how Asami takes a moment or two in the middle of everything to casually bitchslap a competitor while she's at it. Because, you know, priorities. :)

--G.
Also, where the hell is Naga, and how many guards will she have eaten by the time Asami finds her?
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Gryphonadmin
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32. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #31
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-14 AT 10:06 AM (EDT)
 
> Would that really have been so hard?

That said, I do have to admit that I'm not too broken up about the bros. I mean, I'll miss Bolin, he was a nice kid and he deserved better, but Mako had one job and he did it in Chapter 5 of Episode 1; he's just been getting in the way since then anyway.

--G.
I'm kidding. I'm sure they're not dead. :)
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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Matrix Dragon
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Aug-02-14, 09:34 PM (EDT)
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44. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #31
 
   >Also, where the hell is Naga, and how many guards will
>she have eaten by the time Asami finds her?

I have the mental image that Naga escaped before the other leading ladies were put on the airship. She is currently following it from the ground, mentally grumbling about stupid deserts, stupid plot-railroads, and she's going to eat or sit on EVERYTHING when she gets up there.

Matrix Dragon, J. Random Nutter


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mdg1
Member since Aug-25-04
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Aug-02-14, 04:19 PM (EDT)
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33. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #28
 
   Geez, are they afraid she's going to eat someone's liver?

Mario


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Gryphonadmin
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Aug-02-14, 04:26 PM (EDT)
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34. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #33
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-14 AT 04:27 PM (EDT)
 
>Geez, are they afraid she's going to eat someone's liver?

I have absolutely no idea. It's not as if biting is a Recognized Part of the Avatar toolkit. She's not a goddam vampire. (And it's not a gag cleverly disguised as a Hannibal Lecter mask to get by Standards & Practices, either, it clearly doesn't interfere with speaking at all.) I think it's just for effect. "Bad guys employing Silence of the Lambs mask indicates they're taking this bsns srsly."

Or maybe Mike DiMartino (who wrote that ep) has a bondage fetish. That would tend to explain all the getting tied up/drugged/paralyzed/held down by masked gimps (no, seriously, that happened more than once in Book 1)/otherwise restrained Korra spends so much of her time doing. I hasten to emphasize that this is scurrilous and unfounded speculation only on my part.

--G.
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VoidRandom
Member since Dec-9-02
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Aug-02-14, 06:20 PM (EDT)
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36. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #34
 
   >Or maybe Mike DiMartino (who wrote that ep) has a bondage fetish.
>That would tend to explain all the getting tied
>up/drugged/paralyzed/held down by masked gimps (no, seriously, that
>happened more than once in Book 1)/otherwise restrained Korra
>spends so much of her time doing. I hasten to emphasize that this is
>scurrilous and unfounded speculation only on my part.

It wouldn't be the first time that a writer let their...er...special interests...slip into their writing.

-VR
Paging Mr. Claremont, Mr. Claremont to the white courtesy phone.
"They copied all they could follow, but they couldn't copy my mind,
And I left 'em sweating and stealing a year and a half behind."


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mdg1
Member since Aug-25-04
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Aug-02-14, 06:22 PM (EDT)
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37. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #36
 
   >It wouldn't be the first time that a writer let their...er...special
>interests...slip into their writing.
>
>-VR
>Paging Mr. Claremont, Mr. Claremont to the white
>courtesy phone.

>"They copied all they could follow, but they couldn't copy my mind,
>And I left 'em sweating and stealing a year and a half behind."

Beat me to it. :)

Mario


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StClair
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51. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #37
 
   And me. u_u;


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Matrix Dragon
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Aug-02-14, 08:41 PM (EDT)
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41. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #33
 
   >Geez, are they afraid she's going to eat someone's liver?

I think it's just that the Earth Queen's a bitch, and included that in the orders. To be a Bitch.

Matrix Dragon, J. Random Nutter


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Gryphonadmin
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Aug-02-14, 08:47 PM (EDT)
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42. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #41
 
   >>Geez, are they afraid she's going to eat someone's liver?
>
>I think it's just that the Earth Queen's a bitch, and included that in
>the orders. To be a Bitch.

I wouldn't rule that out, actually. "And make sure it's as humiliating as possible within the constraints of children's televisionwebcasting."

--G.
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Nova Floresca
Member since Sep-13-13
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Aug-03-14, 08:51 AM (EDT)
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47. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #20
 
   I am now extremely glad I never got into TLOK. My personal standard for "needless abuse of characters" is Nanoha StrikerS which is sounding positively light and fluffy compared to this mess.

"This is probably a stupid question, but . . ."


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Gryphonadmin
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Aug-03-14, 12:35 PM (EDT)
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48. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #47
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-14 AT 12:37 PM (EDT)
 
>I am now extremely glad I never got into TLOK. My personal standard
>for "needless abuse of characters" is Nanoha StrikerS which is
>sounding positively light and fluffy compared to this
>mess.

It's such a shame. Korra and Asami are two of the greatest characters ever created. (And the people who voice them are wonderfully talented and clearly giving it everything they have.) I want people to know and love them. I would like nothing better than to be able to recommend their adventures wholeheartedly and evangelically to everyone I meet. They deserve to be among the best-known and most beloved animation characters on the planet. They are collectively the one reason I keep watching...

But they work in a salt mine.

(Meanwhile, Nickelodeon's over there getting all Russell Crowe about it. "Are you not entertained?!" they demand testily, while relegating the show to the website and pretending it's a promotion to a New Paradigm.)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Nova Floresca
Member since Sep-13-13
92 posts
Aug-03-14, 01:04 PM (EDT)
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49. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #48
 
   >(Meanwhile, Nickelodeon's over there getting all Russell Crowe about
>it. "Are you not entertained?!" they demand testily, while
>relegating the show to the website and pretending it's a promotion to
>a New Paradigm.)

Is that because it's getting bad ratings, or is that because they don't want Impressionable Parents seeing squick being shown on their TVs?

"This is probably a stupid question, but . . ."


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Gryphonadmin
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Aug-03-14, 01:21 PM (EDT)
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50. "RE: Chapter 9"
In response to message #49
 
   >Is that because it's getting bad ratings, or is that because they
>don't want Impressionable Parents seeing squick being shown on their
>TVs?

The former. This is the channel that used to air Invader Zim, I think it's safe to assume they're not terribly concerned about the latter, and in any case, I doubt anyone at the network - including very possibly the show's creators - ever actually noticed how disturbing Book 1 is. (To be fair, there was a lot less of that crap in Book 2; it was a more straightforward "not-very-smart hero unwittingly helps evil" storyline with a long digression into revisionist backstory in the middle.)

The rationale that TLOK is very unlike/doesn't "fit with" the rest of the network's lineup has also been mentioned, and that viewpoint does have some merit. Everything else on Nick these days seems to be for much smaller children; even before they discovered that only adults seem to be watching TLOK, they had it aimed at middle-schoolers.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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