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Subject: "Pathfinder: Kingmaker"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
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Trscroggs
Member since Apr-26-16
53 posts
Oct-15-18, 10:31 AM (EST)
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"Pathfinder: Kingmaker"
 
   Not the pen and paper RPG, but the new computer game by OwlCat games.

If you like tactical RPGs like Pillars of Eternity or Divinity: Original Sin, Kingmaker is a good, but not spectacular, example of the breed. It's a lot more like Neverwinter Nights or Bauler's Gate than either of the two more modern examples.

The story matches up with the p&p Kingmaker Adventure Path pretty much perfectly, at least in the beginning.

I really just have three major problems with it:

1. Yikes, those DC/AC values. Even in the beginning it can be very hard to hit certain creatures. Also the DC for locks can be *stupid* high, and you only get one attempt at the lock per-character and per-level, leading to a lot of save scumming if you want the contents.

2. Custom characters are expensive. Many of the pregenerated characters are...not quite optimal. Especially as far as point 1 is concerned. (They make sense story-wise, but it results in an under-powered character.)
You can hire your own custom characters, but their cost is high and gets higher as your level increases. In my second play-through I intend to counsel-code enough money into my pockets that I can go with an all custom party as soon as I am allowed.

3. Loot is NOT random. Normally this might be a good thing, but in addition to the inability to make custom magic items, it can easily result in a character who is specialized to a weapon you cannot get.

--

Some of the changes to they system from table-top to computer are beneficial and some are not.

-Combat is more or less real time and it takes time to do things. It is entirely possible to throw a fireball at a group of enemies, and have them all out of the area before the caster finishes casting, even if they start casting the spell from ambush. Crowd Control spells, such as Web, are exceptionally valuable as a consequence.

-A target is considered flanked when two characters are engaged in melee with it, no matter the angle of engagement. This makes Sneak Attack extremely easy to pull off. A dual-wielding Rogue(Knife Master) is a murder machine because of it.


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Pathfinder: Kingmaker Verbena Oct-15-18 1
     RE: Pathfinder: Kingmaker Trscroggs Oct-15-18 2
  RE: Pathfinder: Kingmaker Meridias Oct-16-18 3
     RE: Pathfinder: Kingmaker MoonEyes Oct-17-18 4
         RE: Pathfinder: Kingmaker Trscroggs Oct-18-18 5
  RE: Pathfinder: Kingmaker Rieverre Dec-14-18 6
     RE: Pathfinder: Kingmaker Trscroggs Dec-14-18 7
         RE: Pathfinder: Kingmaker Rieverre Dec-14-18 8
             RE: Pathfinder: Kingmaker Trscroggs Dec-14-18 9
             RE: Pathfinder: Kingmaker Trscroggs Dec-15-18 10

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Verbena
Charter Member
823 posts
Oct-15-18, 06:27 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: Pathfinder: Kingmaker"
In response to message #0
 
   I was eyeing this game, and I'm really glad you let us know this. I may hold off unless I can tweak stats or items somehow...

------
Fearless creatures, we all learn to fight the Reaper
Can't defeat Her, so instead I'll have to be Her


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Trscroggs
Member since Apr-26-16
53 posts
Oct-15-18, 10:42 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Pathfinder: Kingmaker"
In response to message #1
 
   For a custom character, including your main character if you don't chose to use a pre-gen, can be fully customized.

Note that you can take full control of the level-up for the pre-gens, you just cannot change their starting state. An example of this would be your starting tank, Valerie. Valerie is a Fighter(Tower Shield Specialist) but her backstory says she is a failed Paladin. Hence she has a *lot* of Charisma for a Fighter, its her second highest stat, but she can't do a lot with it. (Strength is her *third* highest stat.)

Valerie also has the Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Bastard Sword) feat as her level 1 feat. This isn't bad, there are several really good bastard swords in the game, but because of a relatively low strength score she's not particularly accurate or deadly with them.

The problem is that magic items cannot. Also mundane items are essentially just food. Skill boosting mundane items, such as thieves tools, do not exist. There are crafters (many of which are still getting some bug fixes) so loot and equipment is not zero-sum, but you only have partial control over their actions, such as telling them the category of what you want them to make instead of a specific item.


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Meridias
Member since Jun-9-12
60 posts
Oct-16-18, 00:33 AM (EST)
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3. "RE: Pathfinder: Kingmaker"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON Oct-16-18 AT 00:35 AM (EDT)
 
I got this game myself and let me just put out a PSA. This game is a buggy, broken mess right now and while I do like the game overall, I would not suggest buying it in its current state. Loads of quests are not able to be completed, lots of feats don't work or don't work correctly and the kingdom management is a joke. Also, a good number of the story quests have hidden timers that result in an instant game over which cuts out pretty much any exploration and level grinding you might want to engage in.

I'd give this several months to get into shape before buying or a very cheap sale.

*********************
Rock Is Dead. Long Live Paper And Scissors.


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MoonEyes
Member since Jun-29-03
860 posts
Oct-17-18, 05:43 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Pathfinder: Kingmaker"
In response to message #3
 
   Watching Cohhcarnage play this(he is MASSIVELY addicted, and I can see why), the game is indeed broken as Meridias says. But it's not (quite)unplayably broken, Owlcat is MADLY at work fixing large issues on an almost assembly-line level, and are keeping people WELL abreast of the issues that exist.
And also acknowledging that yes, this DOES lead to other issues being CREATED, what with the unfortunate lack of time for testing patches.
But at the moment, fixing large, potentially game-breaking issues RIGHT NOW DAMMIT take precedent over "spending two weeks making sure that the fix does not introduce other, lesser issues", in their own words. Which I can only agree to, and as noted, they're very good at making sure people are kept up-to-date.

I think that Cohh has a point in his claim that Owlcat has the POTENTIAL to be one of the upcoming, big game studios. While the "world and lore" isn't theirs but Paizos, they have succeeded in making a game that is immersive, interesting, fun and VAST. The potential for spending HOURS in that game is huge. Cohh is, at this point, 130 some hours into his first play-through, and while he's at act...5? Yeah, 5, he isn't close to the ending, yet.


...!
Stoke Mandeville, Esq & The Victorian Ballsmiths
"Nobody Want Verdigris-Covered Balls!"


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Trscroggs
Member since Apr-26-16
53 posts
Oct-18-18, 11:06 AM (EST)
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5. "RE: Pathfinder: Kingmaker"
In response to message #4
 
   I've been lucky and not run into anything hugely game-breaking so far. Some annoyances for sure, including a very long initial load time, but nothing that prevents me from playing the game.

Oh, one thing that some people looking into this might want to know. There is a pseudo time limit. As the 'story' advances there are quests that pop up that damage your kingdom's stats at regular intervals if they aren't cleared (example: a horde of rampaging trolls attack you kingdom.)

Under most default difficulties, having your kingdom fail is an automatic game-over, and clearing one of these quests advances the story and queues the next quest. You usually have a fair amount of time to adventure on your own before the next thing kicks off, but this isn't forever.

Also, the game suggests you go to your capital and go into the kingdom management screen at least once a month. It isn't joking.


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Rieverre
Member since Aug-17-13
6 posts
Dec-14-18, 07:48 AM (EST)
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6. "RE: Pathfinder: Kingmaker"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-18 AT 07:53 AM (EST)
 
Now several months in and with one new DLC about to drop, I have to say Owlcat have fixed a lot of the stuff that was broken, quests and all, but I'm putting it down until March or so by when it should be mostly content-complete.

Everything else aside, tho, even just shortly after launch I liked it far more than I did Pillars. It's got a lot of build variety, and a lot of nostalgia potential, and even the overtuned enemies aren't that much of an issue if you use all the tools at your disposal ...

... but I love it mostly for the toolset letting you have moments moments like this ...

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1546170638

Rawr.

---
The non-believers climbed for days to confront the master in the mountains. "Where do you get your so-called faith?" they asked.
"You brought it," the master replied. "You've all climbed so high." - The Book of Cataclysm


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Trscroggs
Member since Apr-26-16
53 posts
Dec-14-18, 09:29 AM (EST)
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7. "RE: Pathfinder: Kingmaker"
In response to message #6
 
   I love that they are introducing Kineticist as the first DLC class. They are in my list of top 5 classes in the tRPG. (Summoner and Gunslinger are also up there.)

I'll admit that the choice is a little unusual though, as the Kineticist is one of the...less optimal classes? (Only the last class of Pathfinder: 1st edition, the Shifter, is generally rated worse.)

I wonder how they are planning on changing the Kineticist for its PC debut though. The Kineticist is one of the most complicated classes in the tRPG. They pay for almost all their abilities by taking non-lethal damage, and IIRC Owlcat's game doesn't have non-lethal damage at all. I thought of a couple of ways you could do it without too much difficulty, but I am not sure what way they are going to lean.

The real question is whether I am going to restart the campaign (again). I really like the Kineticist, but I'm not sure how well the character is going to be built.


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Rieverre
Member since Aug-17-13
6 posts
Dec-14-18, 01:04 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: Pathfinder: Kingmaker"
In response to message #7
 
   I'll probably be restarting, if only to see what they've fixed in the early-to-mid game ...

... as for 'optimal' ... if that was the way I played things I'd be single-classing a Vivisectionist rather than making the above Scaled Fist/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple mashup that's basically a Muscle Wizard.

I've found the companions to not be too bad. Not perfectly minmaxed, but none of them is a disaster ... other than Tristian I guess, but that's down to both his stats and his kit being worth a facepalm.

For the others, the leveling system has enough give to make for some interesting combinations (Still laughing like a maniac after the one time I made Jaethal a druid with a smilodon animal companion) if you don't feel like going the vanilla route. And Nok-nok, Ekundayo and Octavia are very well made for what they're supposed to do anyway.

---
The non-believers climbed for days to confront the master in the mountains. "Where do you get your so-called faith?" they asked.
"You brought it," the master replied. "You've all climbed so high." - The Book of Cataclysm


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Trscroggs
Member since Apr-26-16
53 posts
Dec-14-18, 03:56 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Pathfinder: Kingmaker"
In response to message #8
 
   Seeing the early game again is what started my second run-through actually. (It should be noted that I haven't actually finished the game yet on any file.)

In my very first play-through I liked Tristian a lot, once I dropped a ranged weapon into his hands (crossbow at first, then a powerful magic bow after giving him Bracers of Archery). You just have to use him as he is, a wizard who just so happens to cast from the Cleric's spell-list. Of course in that playthrough he was the first cleric I got so I grew attached.

My second play-through has been as a Hospitaler Paladin, who are Paladins that give up some of the Smite Evil uses for the standard Cleric's Channel Powers. I also didn't get Tristian until the start of Chapter 2, soI'm not feeling as attached.


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Trscroggs
Member since Apr-26-16
53 posts
Dec-15-18, 11:28 AM (EST)
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10. "RE: Pathfinder: Kingmaker"
In response to message #8
 
   I grabbed the DLC and the new companion.

Sometime after you start chapter 2 (I had to leave town for a few days and come back) she'll ask for your help in the throne room. Complete her quest to add her as a companion and, if you a through enough, add a resource opportunity to your kingdom.

Owlcat went the way I thought they would with the Kineticist, using your burn abilities basically racks in as unhealable damage. The damage goes away on your next rest and there is a cap to how much you can hurt yourself between rests.

Important note, many Kineticist abilities require your character have their hands free. The first thing you need to do is make your blast (or related ability) an auto-attack or your Kineticist will try to punch something in the face.

As a companion the new Tiefling Kineticist is actually well stated, with the Con bonus a Kineticist needs to fuel their abilities, and the Dex to actually hit someone with it. I won't talk about feats or power choices to avoid spoilers, but I'm actually fairly impressed.

Also, she's another council option.


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