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Eyrie Productions, Unlimited
Gryphon
Charter Member
18762 posts |
Apr-23-16, 09:45 PM (EDT) |
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"Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
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Today's gun is... not what I was expecting, and it ended up leading me into a strange corner of the firearms hobby I had not previously suspected. When I ran across this item during a poke around online, it was described by the shop offering it as semiautomatic pistol in .22 Long Rifle and called the Walther 416. I'm not generally much into the whole "tacticool" thin, but in this case I thought it looked like what a broomhandle Mauser would look like in an R. Talsorian Cyberpunk sourcebook circa 1988, which appealed to me. Slightly closer inspection turned up what looked strikingly like the logo of Heckler & Koch, which is a different German firearms manufacturer, and a cursory investigation led me to the conclusion that it was a rimfire pistol designed to look like a scaled-down version of the HK416 assault rifle—a derivative of the US M4 carbine which is currently used by, among other organizations, German special forces and the Norwegian Army. Please note that I said cursory investigation. This will be important in a moment. Anyway, I thought it was interesting, and it was very reasonably priced, so I ordered one and then sort of more or less forgot about it. Until the other day, when I got a call from the local shop that it had arrived and I could come and pick it up any time. My first indication that I might have gotten the wrong idea came when I arrived at the shop and the man put the case the pistol came in up on the counter. Here is that case, pictured with a full-sized notebook computer to provide a sense of scale. ... Yeah. Remember I said I thought it looked like a sci-fi version of a broomhandle Mauser? Here it is with my broomhandle Mauser. ... Yeah. So, uh, funny story. It turns out the firearm sold on the US market as the "Walther 416" is not, in fact, a pistol designed to look like a scaled-down HK416 rifle. It is an HK416 rifle. Or rather, it's the full-size rimfire replica version of the HK416 rifle... marketed as a pistol because they left the shoulder stock off. It is mahoosive. It's based on a full-sized assault rifle receiver derived from the AR-15/M16 chassis, with a heavy barrel all of 11 inches long and based on one designed to withstand the thermal loads of firing 5.56mm NATO ammunition at full auto, which involves (scientifically speaking) about eleventy dozen times more metal than you need for a .22 rimfire semiauto. It's covered in about 100 square feet of heavy-duty milspec modular accessory rail, which is either made of plastic-coated metal or high-density polymer (I can't tell). It weighs five pounds. Baffled, I did a little more research when I got home and discovered that this is a thing now. Actually it's two things, but I knew about one of them—full-size .22 rimfire replicas of military rifles—before. The very first (retroactively) Gun of the Week was a .22 replica of a German StG44, after all. What I didn't realize until now was also a thing was military rifle manufacturers selling shortened versions of their wares on the civilian market as "handguns". And not just rimfire replica versions like this HK416, either. There are AR "pistols" that fire the full-dress 5.56mm NATO rifle round. Hell, there are AK "pistols" in 7.62x39mm! I can't decide if that's nuts or just silly, and in some cases I have no idea why the feds let them get away with it, because some of these assault-rifle "pistols" don't omit the shoulder stock the way the HK416 does. A little background may be in order here. I'm puzzled by these things being legal because there is a specific provision in the National Firearms Act of 1934 establishing a minimum legal length of rifle and shotgun barrels. For rifles, that minimum length is 16 inches, with a minimum overall length for the whole weapon of 26 inches. (This was in response to guys like Clyde Barrow sawing the stocks and most of the barrels off hunting rifles and then hiding them under coats.) It was always my understanding that if a firearm has a rifled barrel and a shoulder stock, it's a rifle and is thus supposed to be subject to those guidelines. Shorter than that, and it's classified as a Short-Barreled Rifle (SBR). Contrary to popular belief, these are not illegal as such, but they are much more closely monitored and tightly regulated than "normal" rifles. There are exemptions, but they have to be specifically made within the regulations. The canonical example is, once again, the broomhandle Mauser; these originally came with a detachable shoulder stock, which, when assembled, would legally make the whole assembly an SBR. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, the federal agency tasked with enforcing the NFA, gave broomie owners an out by classifying them under the Curio and Relic rubric, which recognizes them as being of historical interest to collectors and so not subject to the barrel length rules. (I have a Curio and Relic collector's license, which means I can buy firearms that are on the BATFE's C&R list across state lines without having to go through a dealer—which is handy.) The thing is, there is no way on this Earth that the BATFE ever classified new-production Kalashnikov-style "pistols" as Curios and Relics, so how can their manufacturers get away with selling them, as I have seen offered online, with 10-inch barrels and shoulder stocks? I have no idea. There must be a loophole in the NFA someplace, but it boggles my mind slightly to think that all they have to do is say "no, this is a pistol, wink wink" and all is well. I haven't dealt extensively with the ATF, but I have to say I never got the impression from the dealings I have had with it that it was the kind of agency where "wink wink" would really fly. Mind you, the HK416 "pistol" (I just can't bring myself not to use the sarcasm quotes) I have doesn't have that particular ethical grey area, since it doesn't have a stock, although if it is externally parts-compatible with the rifle version, adding one would... not be difficult? I'm not going to attempt it, but I can't see any technical reason why it would be. So anyway, yeah. I thought I was buying a pistol designed, somewhat preciously, to look like a small cousin of a popular rifle. What I got... was a rifle with some of the bits left off it. Not what I was expecting. While we're here, though, we might as well take a closer look at what I actually got. As previously noted, the HK416 is a military-and-police assault rifle, originally developed around the turn of the century as an evolution of the M4 carbine (which is in turn based on the M16, which is in turn the military version of the AR-15); so it's a relatively new rifle, but its roots go back to the late 1950s, when ArmaLite originally developed the AR family. I'm far from an expert on the AR's technology, but in this case—as with the Sturmgewehr replica I have—it doesn't matter much, since most of that technology isn't here. This is a fairly simple straight-blowback .22 action dressed up in an HK416 suit. It still has all the bits and bobs that the original military rifle had, because that's the appeal the manufacturers are going for, but many of them don't do anything. In the following photo, you can see two such decorative bits. Most obviously, while the receiver has the markings for the ambidextrous selector switch that can be found on the centerfire military version of the rifle, the switch isn't there. I'm uncertain whether the one that is there could be removed and replaced the other way around, converting the weapon for left-hand operation; if that is possible, it isn't mentioned in the manual. Further, see that plunger thing at the back of the receiver (upper left corner of this photo)? In the centerfire rifle version, that's the forward assist. If you're in the field and you're having a hard time getting the action to close, you can whack that and a plunger inside it will drive the bolt forward. This is necessary because the charging handle, which is that tab-eared dingus right above it, is not directly connected to the bolt; it can only pull it back and let it go, not push it forward (otherwise it would reciprocate when the rifle fires, which would be... disconcerting, to say the last, to the operator). It's not normally needed; like all automatic and semiautomatic rifles, it's supposed to be able to close itself with spring tension, but sometimes they get dirty or gummed up with residue and need to be helped out a little. Anyway, in this rimfire version, that button doesn't do anything. It's got a spring in it, so it will press and rebound convincingly, but it isn't connected to anything inside; it's just there to provide verisimilitude to the replica. Similarly, that spring-loaded dust cover on the ejection port doesn't seem to actually close, although I suppose it's possible that the catch on mine just doesn't work properly. It's another milspec feature that is of no use to the casual shooter, anyway. Also in this side view, you can see the takedown pin (the round protrusion below the dummy forward assist and behind the 'FIRE' marking). That is real, as we will see in a moment. Up on the magazine well, the markings show that though the design belongs to Heckler & Koch, the .22 version is actually made by the Carl Walther company. I'm not sure why this arrangement was made; maybe H&K, being primarily in the business of supplying armies, didn't have/want to devote the manufacturing capacity to making purely sporting replicas like these, and so farmed the business out to Walther, which has much more of a line in that kind of thing. Up on top, the accessory rail is marked with these inscrutable numbers. I'm uncertain whether these really signify anything on the rimfire "pistol" version, or if they're just more stylistic holdovers from the rifle. As is often the case, most of the action on this receiver is on the right side, though over on the left we do have the selector switch and some nice highlight paintwork on the markings. Note the two-position semiauto selector. The centerfire military version obviously has a third position for full auto. I'm not sure what that serrated tab in the middle of the shot is supposed to do; I'm guessing it's another vestigial feature that does something on the military version and nothing on the rimfire one. Also note that, like many .22 replicas of army rifles, this action is specced for .22 LR high-velocity ammunition. Not surprising, given the amount of metal the action has to move around, even though it is a simple blowback and doesn't have anything like the "real" rifle's gas system. It does take down like the grown-up version, though. You just pull that pin out on the righthand side (as an aside, it is virtually identical to the pin used to mount the shoulder stock on the StG44!), and then the action hinges open so you can get at everything inside it without further disassembling the gun. From here, it's easy to see that though exotic-looking on the outside, it's a pretty simple action on the inside. (You can also see that the "forward assist" plunger isn't connected to anything.) Another camera angle gives a good view of the usually concealed and entirely conventional hammer. It's even got a not-really-secret secret compartment! A look at the bottom of the pistol grip reveals this suspicious-looking button... ... which, when rotated, reveals that the grip is hollow. I assume there's some kind of folded-up cleaning kit and/or disassembly tool in there in the grown-up rifle version, but the "pistol" came just as you see here. What an odd gun. What an odd corner of the sport inadvertently buying one has revealed to me. I'm not sure how I feel about it. On the one hand, the so-called "assault weapons" bans that go in and out of legislative fashion in this country have never made a ton of sense to me, inasmuch as they always seem to be designed by people who think they know what an "assault weapon" is supposed to look like, but evidently not how any of them actually work. It's the same sort of mentality that led authorities in my neck of the woods to ban "ninja knives" when I was a teenager, despite the fact that what they perceived as a "ninja knife" (i.e., a tantō-style knife) was no more or less dangerous than a kitchen knife. They saw some guy kill 45 people with one in one of those American Ninja movies and wow, scary. On the other, I've never really seen any practical point in civilian ownership of firearms designed for modern military applications. I don't think it should be illegal, because I've always been and continue to be of the view that the law should involve itself in cases of misuse of technologies generally, not their possession; but at the same time, the culture that has grown up around said civilian ownership has gotten more than a bit... weird in reaction to the various forces arrayed against it over the last couple of decades. The result is a situation where I've bought an essentially useless bit of kit that comes with a lot of strange cultural baggage, and am probably on some kind of watch list now when the fact of the matter is, I just thought it was kind of cool—the problem being that I live in a time when "I just thought it was kind of cool" doesn't seem like a sufficient reason to a lot of people. We'll see more about these two points, semi-coincidentally, in the next installment. I try not to be political about these things, but this specimen and the next one really can't be dealt with in a just or honest fashion without at least touching on the politics of the situation. For now, just enjoy the image of my bemusement when I rocked up to collect what I thought was a plinking pistol designed to look a bit like a rifle and got... well... this, in a box the size of a briefcase. Problems of scale aside, though, I still think it looks like a sci-fi'ed up Mauser broomie. I can see BlasTech dropping something that looks like that as their "100th anniversary" tribute to the DL44. --G. -><- Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ zgryphon at that email service Google has Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. |
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Message Date |
ID |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Hotaru Lind |
Apr-24-16 |
1 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Peter Eng |
Apr-24-16 |
2 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Gryphon |
Apr-24-16 |
3 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Mercutio |
Apr-24-16 |
4 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Terminus Est |
Apr-24-16 |
6 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Gryphon |
Apr-24-16 |
7 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Mercutio |
Apr-24-16 |
8 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Gryphon |
Apr-24-16 |
9 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Nathan |
Apr-24-16 |
10 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Mercutio |
Apr-24-16 |
11 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Terminus Est |
Apr-24-16 |
12 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
MoonEyes |
Aug-29-16 |
43 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
thorr_kan |
Aug-30-16 |
44 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Nathan |
Aug-30-16 |
45 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
MoonEyes |
Sep-01-16 |
46 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
rwpikul |
Apr-24-16 |
13 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Mercutio |
Apr-24-16 |
14 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Gryphon |
Apr-25-16 |
15 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Mercutio |
Apr-25-16 |
16 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Gryphon |
Apr-25-16 |
17 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
zwol |
Apr-25-16 |
20 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Pasha |
Apr-25-16 |
28 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
zwol |
Apr-26-16 |
30 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Gryphon |
Apr-26-16 |
31 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
zwol |
Apr-26-16 |
32 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
drakensis |
Apr-27-16 |
33 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Verbena |
Apr-27-16 |
37 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Matrix Dragon |
Apr-24-16 |
5 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
StClair |
Apr-25-16 |
19 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Gryphon |
Apr-25-16 |
21 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
eriktown |
Apr-25-16 |
18 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Gryphon |
Apr-25-16 |
22 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Mercutio |
Apr-25-16 |
23 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Gryphon |
Apr-25-16 |
24 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Mercutio |
Apr-25-16 |
25 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
MuninsFire |
Apr-25-16 |
26 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
SneakyPete |
Apr-27-16 |
34 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Gryphon |
Apr-25-16 |
27 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
eriktown |
Apr-25-16 |
29 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
SneakyPete |
Apr-27-16 |
35 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Gryphon |
Apr-27-16 |
36 |
quick note |
Gryphon |
May-02-16 |
38 |
RE: quick note |
Mercutio |
May-03-16 |
39 |
RE: quick note |
Gryphon |
May-03-16 |
40 |
RE: quick note |
Mercutio |
May-03-16 |
41 |
RE: quick note |
Gryphon |
May-03-16 |
42 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Gryphon |
May-03-17 |
47 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
MoonEyes |
May-03-17 |
48 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
Gryphon |
May-03-17 |
49 |
RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the? |
MoonEyes |
May-03-17 |
50 |
Peter Eng
Charter Member
1347 posts |
Apr-24-16, 03:06 PM (EDT) |
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2. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #0
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That's kind of weird, all right. I'd like to know your impressions of it as a firearm, when you get the chance. It sounds like it shouldn't have any flaws, but I don't trust things that are essentially cut-down versions of something similar. Peter Eng -- Insert humorous comment here. |
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Gryphon
Charter Member
18762 posts |
Apr-24-16, 03:16 PM (EDT) |
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3. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #2
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LAST EDITED ON Apr-24-16 AT 03:17 PM (EDT) >That's kind of weird, all right. > >I'd like to know your impressions of it as a firearm, when you get the >chance. It sounds like it shouldn't have any flaws, but I don't trust >things that are essentially cut-down versions of something similar. Well, I haven't shot it yet, but I can tell you right now that as a handgun, the HK416 rifle is heavy as hell and very poorly balanced. That heavy barrel makes it extremely muzzle-heavy. I basically have to hold it like a rifle, shoulder stock or no, in order to get a decently stable sight picture with it—and since it doesn't have a stock, that position isn't very comfortable to hold, as there's no way of bracing it. If I had forearms like Popeye, it wouldn't be a problem, but for a soft and doughy mortal like me, it's all a bit much. On the other hand, I expect that with that much mass involved, even "high-velocity" .22 LR should have next to no perceptible recoil. Mechanically, I wouldn't expect there to be any problems with it. H&K and Walther are both highly reputable manufacturers, and the thing does have an air of quality about it (in part, admittedly, because it's so heavy). The operating system is simplified from the one found in the original 5.56mm NATO rifle, but it's exactly the same as the one in the .22 sport version of said rifle, because the pistol literally is the rifle with a shorter barrel and no stock. The actual working parts have not been abbreviated in any way, as far as I know. Basically, I would just expect it to be a lot less accurate, because shorter sight radius and really unwieldy form factor, but to work just as well. TLDR: It is highly unlikely to be a practical shooting tool at all, but it might be entertaining, which is about all I imagine the designers were going for in the first place. --G. -><- Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ zgryphon at that email service Google has Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. |
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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
831 posts |
Apr-24-16, 08:36 PM (EDT) |
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4. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #2
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I would also like to know how this thing handles, because, and I'm no expert, it sort of looks and sounds like it combines all the shit parts of handguns with all the shit parts of assault rifles. This is not meant to be a smear on either handguns or assault rifles, but every sort of firearm has something it is total shit at, and this thing looks like it falls into that zone alone not one but two axes. On the other hand, it also looks like it might function as a decent SMG if you preform what's no doubt a highly illegal full-auto conversion and slap an extended mag in there. -Merc Keep Rat |
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Gryphon
Charter Member
18762 posts |
Apr-24-16, 09:02 PM (EDT) |
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7. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #4
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>I would also like to know how this thing handles, because, and I'm no >expert, it sort of looks and sounds like it combines all the shit >parts of handguns with all the shit parts of assault rifles. That is probably not an entirely unfair assessment, although perhaps a bit oversimplified. Because the thing is that even some things that are advantages in one platform become disadvantages in the other; for instance, five pounds would be a terrific weight for a service rifle, but it's godawful in anything that thinks it's a pistol. >On the other hand, it also looks like it might function as a >decent SMG if you preform what's no doubt a highly illegal full-auto >conversion Having handled an actual SMG, I have to say I think you would probably still want some kind of shoulder stock on there. But yeah, that barrel length would work fairly well in an SMG or one of those newfangled "personal defense weapon" things. ... Of course, it would still be a .22, which would be less than ideal. (Also, yes, full-auto conversions of semiauto firearms are quite Not OK. I'm not an expert, but I don't think you could even make it Retroactively OK by filing the paperwork and paying the $200 tax, because of the 1968 Gun Control Act's extensions to the part of the NFA about full-auto-ness and the manufacture thereof.) >and slap an extended mag in there. Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention that. Mine came with a 10-round magazine, because that's what's in the catalog, but they also make 20- and 30-round magazines for it. All of them are much larger than they need to be, because they're designed to be the same size as the equivalent-capacity 5.56 mags that go in the grown-up rifle. --G. -><- Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ zgryphon at that email service Google has Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. |
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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
831 posts |
Apr-24-16, 09:56 PM (EDT) |
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8. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #7
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>That is probably not an entirely unfair assessment, although perhaps a >bit oversimplified. Because the thing is that even some things that >are advantages in one platform become disadvantages in the other; for >instance, five pounds would be a terrific weight for a service >rifle, but it's godawful in anything that thinks it's a pistol. I know some of those giant fuckoff "hunting" revolvers can weigh that much. I do not know how ludicrous a proposition that is, tho. ... actually, I'm unsure if I should have hunting in sarcasm quotes. Is revolver hunting an actual thing, or is it just how these things are marketed because it is more palatable than saying "if you want something in your holster that would make Dirty Harry feel inadequate as a man, have we got a gun for you!" -Merc Keep Rat |
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Gryphon
Charter Member
18762 posts |
Apr-24-16, 10:11 PM (EDT) |
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9. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #8
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>... actually, I'm unsure if I should have hunting in sarcasm quotes. >Is revolver hunting an actual thing, or is it just how these >things are marketed because it is more palatable than saying "if you >want something in your holster that would make Dirty Harry feel >inadequate as a man, have we got a gun for you!" Yes, it is an actual thing, although I have no doubt that the manufacturers of hunting revolvers benefit considerably from the Walter Mitty market as well. --G. -><- Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ zgryphon at that email service Google has Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. |
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Nathan
Charter Member
1306 posts |
Apr-24-16, 10:13 PM (EDT) |
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10. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #8
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>I know some of those giant fuckoff "hunting" revolvers can weigh that >much. I do not know how ludicrous a proposition that is, tho. > >... actually, I'm unsure if I should have hunting in sarcasm quotes. >Is revolver hunting an actual thing, or is it just how these >things are marketed because it is more palatable than saying "if you >want something in your holster that would make Dirty Harry feel >inadequate as a man, have we got a gun for you!" Not a member of the lodge myself, but I believe that, like full sized pickup trucks, you have correctly identified the reasons of the secret heart of 90% of such weapons - but there's that other ten percent, and some of the buyers that are compensating do take them hunting. There are significant chunks of the US where walking in the woods has a statistically significant chance of Insanely Belligerent Wild Hog Attempting To Gore You, if nothing else. ----- The most wonderful thing about BBs Is BBs are wonderful things Their sides are made out of iron Their guns are made out of pain They're crashy smashy bashy flashy fun-fun-fun-fun-fun But the most wonderful thing about BBs Is there is more than one The~re is more than one! |
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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
831 posts |
Apr-24-16, 10:33 PM (EDT) |
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11. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #10
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>There are significant chunks of the US where walking in the woods has >a statistically significant chance of Insanely Belligerent Wild Hog >Attempting To Gore You, if nothing else. Tangent: I've eaten wild hog! When I went to Space Camp as a kid, midway through the week they told us they had a special treat for us and instead of eating in the cafeteria there was a pig roast. We were told that one of the instructors had bagged it himself. I can't for the life of me remember how it tasted. I just remember being desperately relieved for something other than the cafeteria food, which was... not to my liking, because it was very, very southern in kind of a bad way. Grits. Okra. Other unfamiliar vegetables. Lots of dishes that looked and smelled awful to a child with an unsophisticated palette in a strange place. I lived on Jello and cereal for like three of those days. But roast pork? Yeah, I'd eat that, no problem. -Merc Keep Rat |
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MoonEyes
Member since Jun-29-03
639 posts |
Aug-29-16, 06:54 PM (EDT) |
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43. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #10
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>There are significant chunks of the US where walking in the woods has >a statistically significant chance of Insanely Belligerent Wild Hog >Attempting To Gore You, if nothing else. Belated, but... 95% of what most folks think is ok as a sidearm for that sort of thing? Isn't. I've read more than one article referring to this, since it is actually legal to go hunting boar in various parts of the former USSR...and(apologies, but) Americans seem to think that that'd be cool to do with the .44 mag, because DIRTY HARRY! Luckily, the local hunting guides have gotten used to that and so when the now even MORE pissed hog come thundering down at you, they unload the AKM they were toting along, so you at least get out of it alive. Hunting with a revolver is indeed a thing, but you tend to need quite a BIT of revolver. Anything smaller than .454 Casull is right out, as it were. ...! Gott's Leetle Feesh in Trousers!
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thorr_kan
Member since May-11-11
29 posts |
Aug-30-16, 04:52 PM (EDT) |
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44. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #43
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There was a discussion back in The Day on rec.guns (ah, USENET, I miss you!) about what .45 pistol was best for a sidearm in Bear Country. The general consensus was a Thompson, with a significant minority recommending an M3 for simplicity's sake. They contended the *real* question was, what type of ammo: armor piercing or hollow point? The answer of course, was both. Alternating. Feed problems be damned, because when a grizzly was bearing down on you (sorry), There Is No Overkill. It was a pretty tongue-in-cheek discussion. |
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Nathan
Charter Member
1306 posts |
Aug-30-16, 08:06 PM (EDT) |
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45. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #44
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>There was a discussion back in The Day on rec.guns (ah, USENET, I miss >you!) about what .45 pistol was best for a sidearm in Bear Country. I admit, if I were sufficiently insane to want to go Out Of Doors and deliberately confront large hostile animals, my 'minimum choice' would be along the lines of a twelve-gauge, probably with slugs. If there was a girl I was trying to impress, I'd go for an old-fashioned Stopping Gun. ----- The most wonderful thing about BBs Is BBs are wonderful things Their sides are made out of iron Their guns are made out of pain They're crashy smashy bashy flashy fun-fun-fun-fun-fun But the most wonderful thing about BBs Is there is more than one The~re is more than one! |
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MoonEyes
Member since Jun-29-03
639 posts |
Sep-01-16, 06:57 AM (EDT) |
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46. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #45
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LAST EDITED ON Sep-01-16 AT 06:57 AM (EDT) Heh. Alternate History Modern People Back Into Distant Past book series 163(whatevernumberhere(starts at 2)) includes a Modern Girl going off into the woods hunting with her modern rifle, scoffing at the Period Man potential boyfriend who brings a sawn-off double-barrel loaded with slug.She keeps scoffing up until the severely pissed boar comes at her. She doesn't break and run but clearly won't get a killing shot lined up before BANGBANG! She is notably less scoffing after. ...! Gott's Leetle Feesh in Trousers! |
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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
831 posts |
Apr-24-16, 11:56 PM (EDT) |
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14. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #13
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>As said, yes it is an actual thing. There is also a market for >hunting revolvers as a backup weapon for use in hunting things like >bears and wild boar. So I read this, and immediately thought. "Huh. I know a lot of people are into bow hunting. For deer and such. But before firearms you didn't hunt bears and boars with bows; you hunted them with spears." "... no. No, surely nobody is that foolhardy." Less than five minutes of Googling reveals that, no, there are in fact people who are foolhardy enough to be out there with spears hunting wild boars. Admittedly, they're often using packs of dogs... but the point of packs of dogs is to make the boar run towards you so you can stab it. There's at least one pack of dudes who are hunting them with knives. Shouldn't be surprised. But was. -Merc Keep Rat |
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Gryphon
Charter Member
18762 posts |
Apr-25-16, 00:13 AM (EDT) |
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15. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #14
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>So I read this, and immediately thought. "Huh. I know a lot of people >are into bow hunting." My late grandmother once told me that, in her experience running a hunting lodge, the personalities you could expect from different groups of hunters broke down roughly along the lines of what they hunted and how. Deer hunters: Usually decent. Muzzleloading deer hunters: OK, but don't let them get started about "woodscraft". Deer bowhunters: Weird, but harmless. Moose hunters (all equipment types): Not really serious. Moose hunting is easy mode. You might as well be out there hunting cows. Bear hunters: Macho assholes. Muzzleloading bear hunters: Macho assholes with a Davy Crockett complex. Bear bowhunters: Insane macho assholes. Fortunately, I doubt she ever had anyone rock up and announce an intent to hunt bear with a spear. I wouldn't be surprised if that isn't even legal in Maine. --G. -><- Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ zgryphon at that email service Google has Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. |
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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
831 posts |
Apr-25-16, 01:00 AM (EDT) |
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16. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #15
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>Bear hunters: Macho assholes. So I googled "bear hunting with spears." The first two results are youtube videos that featured the following "hunts:" guys laying out bait and then setting up on metal platforms directly above said bait, bolted to the side of trees with easy access to a rifle or a shotty. They wait for a bear to amble over, and then just... drop the spear onto it. Bear runs. Then they wait a bit and amble into the woods to find the corpse. Is this what passes for hunting now? I don't hunt myself. But my brother does, as did our grandfather and great-grandfather; indeed, my great-grandfather was born in a time and place where his rifle was sometimes required to put food on the table. But he also hunted for sport. This doesn't seem at all like that. It seemed wrong in a way I'm having trouble describing, because I certainly don't have a problem with my brother setting up in a duck blind with his call and his wooden decoys. -Merc Keep Rat |
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Gryphon
Charter Member
18762 posts |
Apr-25-16, 01:06 AM (EDT) |
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17. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #16
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>guys laying out bait and then setting up on metal platforms >directly above said baitWhether bear-baiting is hunting depends on who you ask. It's sufficiently controversial, even among the subset of people who are into killing animals in the woods, that there's been at least one referendum on banning it in Maine in recent years, and if we even bother having a referendum about banning a method of taking game in this state, you know it must be pretty sketchy. --G. -><- Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ zgryphon at that email service Google has Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. |
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zwol
Member since Feb-24-12
194 posts |
Apr-25-16, 10:30 AM (EDT) |
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20. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #8
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>>That is probably not an entirely unfair assessment, although perhaps a >>bit oversimplified. Because the thing is that even some things that >>are advantages in one platform become disadvantages in the other; for >>instance, five pounds would be a terrific weight for a service >>rifle, but it's godawful in anything that thinks it's a pistol. > >I know some of those giant fuckoff "hunting" revolvers can weigh that >much. I do not know how ludicrous a proposition that is, tho. Friend of mine played a Troll in a Shadowrun campaign some years back; the character didn't usually need to shoot things, but he carried a pistol anyway, because not carrying a weapon in that setting is foolhardy bordering on suicidal. Thing is, Trolls are seven to ten feet tall and built like the proverbial brick shithouse. One time while waiting for the pizza to show up we got to talking about how his hands were too big for "normal" pistols and did he have to have the dang thing custom-made? I think we concluded that there was enough of a market for Troll-sized firearms that it didn't need to be a full custom job, but that there was probably a bit of a markup. We didn't bother working out what his upscaled pistol would be like in any more detail, because none of us were firearms nerds. But I imagine it might not be that different from a giant fuckoff hunting revolver, or the peculiar hybrid Gryph started this off with. Probably more practical than either. There are undoubtedly Walter Mitty wannabes in Shadowrun, and the gun manufacturers are undoubtedly still happy to take their money, but a PC is looking for practical. |
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Pasha
Charter Member
947 posts |
Apr-25-16, 08:50 PM (EDT) |
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28. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #20
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>One time while waiting for the pizza to show up we got to talking >about how his hands were too big for "normal" pistols and did he have >to have the dang thing custom-made? I think we concluded that there >was enough of a market for Troll-sized firearms that it didn't need to >be a full custom job, but that there was probably a bit of a markup. 20% markup in 3e, 10% in 4 and 5E, same for dwarves. >We didn't bother working out what his upscaled pistol would be like in >any more detail, because none of us were firearms nerds. But I >imagine it might not be that different from a giant fuckoff hunting >revolver, or the peculiar hybrid Gryph started this off with. >Probably more practical than either. There are undoubtedly Walter >Mitty wannabes in Shadowrun, and the gun manufacturers are >undoubtedly still happy to take their money, but a PC is looking for >practical. What you're looking for there is a Ruger Superwarhawk: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=10710 -- -Pasha "Don't change the subject" "Too slow, already did." |
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zwol
Member since Feb-24-12
194 posts |
Apr-26-16, 09:47 AM (EDT) |
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30. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #28
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>>I think we concluded that there >>was enough of a market for Troll-sized firearms that it didn't need to >>be a full custom job, but that there was probably a bit of a markup. > >20% markup in 3e, 10% in 4 and 5E, same for dwarves. I remember no such official rule, which may just mean that we could not find it in the book. This happened in 2000 plus or minus a couple years, so we were probably playing 3e, but it is possible that we were cheapskates and sticking to 2e books that we already had. >>There are undoubtedly Walter >>Mitty wannabes in Shadowrun, and the gun manufacturers are >>undoubtedly still happy to take their money, but a PC is looking for >>practical. > >What you're looking for there is a Ruger Superwarhawk: I ... can't tell if that's meant to be practical or not. It wouldn't have gone over well with our GM, that's for sure. She was very big on scenarios requiring us not to kill every motherfucker in the room. |
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Matrix Dragon
Charter Member
1676 posts |
Apr-24-16, 08:53 PM (EDT) |
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5. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #0
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You know how video games and movies always have these giant hand cannons that are utterly impractical, insane and clearly only intended to look badass? That's the only use I can think of for this thing. Matrix Dragon, J. Random Nutter |
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Gryphon
Charter Member
18762 posts |
Apr-25-16, 01:43 PM (EDT) |
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21. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #19
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>As a more practical matter, I have to wonder: G, are you going to try >to return it for a refund, or sell it to someone else? Nah, hell with it. It's not the shop's fault I didn't do enough research, and private sales are a pain in the ass. Anyway, I like it! It's silly and incongruous. I should take a photo of it surrounded by my various little .32s, like an orca trying to hang out with some dolphins. --G. -><- Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ zgryphon at that email service Google has Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. |
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Gryphon
Charter Member
18762 posts |
Apr-25-16, 02:07 PM (EDT) |
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22. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #18
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>FWIW, the HK 416 has a good reputation as a high-quality but expensive >AR-15 clone in its actual rifle configuration.That's not too surprising, given that that's H&K's whole thing. "You can find better if you dig a bit, but you'll never pay more." :) I forgot to mention in the original post that Heckler & Koch is something of a successor to the original Mauser company. Mauser's factory was broken up by the occupying Allies after WWII, and Edmund Heckler and Theodor Koch (and Alex Seidel, who didn't get his name on the company for some reason) were Mauser engineers who found themselves thus unemployed. Unlike many of the company's other engineers, who decamped to countries where they would be allowed to keep doing firearms work until such time as it was permitted in Germany again, they started a new company in the Oberndorf area making stuff that was allowed at the time (sewing machines and whatnot), then got back into firearms when the time was right. None of which is directly relevant, and I didn't realise the Walther 416 I was looking at in the catalog was actually an H&K design at the time, but in retrospect it makes my thought that it looked like a modernized Mauser broomie that much more amusing to me, even though the resemblance turns out to be entirely coincidental. Also, you mentioned building a custom AR, which reminds me of another thing I sort of discovered in the course of researching what this weird gun actually is that might be worth mentioning—namely, that building one's own AR or AK from parts is also a Thing. I say "sort of discovered" because it came up in a separate context at around the same time, as these things sometimes do, in that Ian over at Forgotten Weapons mentioned it in this month's Q&A video. He used the metaphor of the Jeep, which a suitably determined individual could basically scratchbuild from parts available from the JC Whitney catalog without ever actually having a Jeep beforehand. I find myself intrigued by this concept, just because of the engineering aspect of it. I think I'd rather like to do that sometime. It would provide an interesting look into the engineering challenges involved, and be a useful hook for a closer look at the history of either one (and both the AK-47 and the AR-15 have fascinating histories). Something to think about doing this summer, perhaps. --G. -><- Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ zgryphon at that email service Google has Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. |
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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
831 posts |
Apr-25-16, 02:29 PM (EDT) |
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23. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #22
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> I sort of discovered in the course of researching what this >weird gun actually is that might be worth mentioning—namely, >that building one's own AR or AK from parts is also a Thing. Technically, hasn't anyone who has completely broken down their AK for cleaning and maintenance and then re-assembled it done this? I mean, the entire point of living in an era interchangeable parts is that the bits are supposed to be completely, well... interchangeable. I'm sure most of the people in this thread are familiar with Eli Whitney's famous demonstration before the US Congress, where he disassembled ten rifles, put all the parts in a big'ol pile, then rebuilt all ten using parts chosen at random that hadn't ever been mated with one another before. If you just order a box full of AK parts and then hand-assemble them, I suppose it might require engineering, although if that's the case wouldn't it mean you got some sub-standard parts? Like, if you have to hand finish something to make it fit properly on an industrially-produced firearm, doesn't that mean that one of the parts in the equation wasn't built to spec? I am rather interested in the economics of this, though. Are assault rifles like cars, where the whole is worth less than the sum of the individual parts? Or are they more like computers, where being assembled into a working whole usually increases value? -Merc Keep Rat |
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Gryphon
Charter Member
18762 posts |
Apr-25-16, 02:36 PM (EDT) |
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24. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #23
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LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-16 AT 02:38 PM (EDT) >> I sort of discovered in the course of researching what this >>weird gun actually is that might be worth mentioning—namely, >>that building one's own AR or AK from parts is also a Thing. > >Technically, hasn't anyone who has completely broken down their AK for >cleaning and maintenance and then re-assembled it done this? There's field stripping, and then there's constructing an entire platform. The difference is akin to that between doing a brake job on your car and replacing the entire braking system. >I'm sure most of the people in this thread are familiar with Eli >Whitney's famous demonstration before the US Congress, where he >disassembled ten rifles, put all the parts in a big'ol pile, then >rebuilt all ten using parts chosen at random that hadn't ever been >mated with one another before. Familiar enough to know that it was a con. Seriously, did you not know? Those weren't interchangeable parts. They were the mechanical equivalent of a deck of marked cards. They only worked one way, but Whitney had arranged the demonstration so that wouldn't be obvious to the War Department. He then took the contract money, blew it on legal actions over the cotton gin patents, and didn't come across with the rifles he'd promised until long after they were of no use to the Army. Whitney didn't invent the American arsenal system, he invented the great American defense contractor tradition of ripping off the government. >If you just order a box full of AK parts and then hand-assemble them, >I suppose it might require engineering, although if that's the case >wouldn't it mean you got some sub-standard parts? It depends on where they came from. If they're all from the same manufacturer, then yes, they should all go together without any particular fiddling or challenge. If not, who knows? If you're sticking a Romanian upper on a Yugoslav lower with a Chinese trigger assembly and an East German gas system, you're learning a hard lesson in the universal fact that international standards aren't really. :) Anyway, think of it as like building a complicated model kit. Of course the parts should just go together and work, they all came out of the same box, but in practice it's not that simple, because in practice nothing with that many parts is ever that simple. --G. -><- Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ zgryphon at that email service Google has Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. |
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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
831 posts |
Apr-25-16, 03:04 PM (EDT) |
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25. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #24
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>>I'm sure most of the people in this thread are familiar with Eli >>Whitney's famous demonstration before the US Congress, where he >>disassembled ten rifles, put all the parts in a big'ol pile, then >>rebuilt all ten using parts chosen at random that hadn't ever been >>mated with one another before. > >Familiar enough to know that it was a con. Seriously, did you not >know? Those weren't interchangeable parts. They were the mechanical >equivalent of a deck of marked cards. They only worked one way, but >Whitney had arranged the demonstration so that wouldn't be obvious to >the War Department.No, actually! I didn't know that. I mean... I knew that he fucked up the contract, although I confess I wouldn't be able to tell you the details without looking them up beyond "massively overpromised in a way that should have been obvious to a five-year-old." And I knew (or should I say, thought I knew?) that the firearms in question had been hand-assembled by skilled artisans working very, very carefully in order to be sure they'd all work together, which achieved the goal at the expense of... well, of expense. But I'd no idea the entire demonstration was bogus. None at all. I think I only know this fact because it came up tangentially in a book I read about the Brunel's, though, as opposed to anything in-depth I've ever read about Whitney himself. -Merc Keep Rat |
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SneakyPete
Member since Jun-30-04
85 posts |
Apr-27-16, 05:03 PM (EDT) |
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34. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #26
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>>It depends on where they came from. If they're all from the same >>manufacturer, then yes, they should all go together without any >>particular fiddling or challenge. If not, who knows? If you're >>sticking a Romanian upper on a Yugoslav lower with a Chinese trigger >>assembly and an East German gas system, you're learning a hard lesson >>in the universal fact that international standards aren't really. :) >> > >That's the nice thing about standards... > >There's so many to choose from. Which is, to my understanding, part of what the whole custom-built AR craze is about: the ability to have a modular rifle which can be built to do almost anything, while fitting almost anyone. Long barrel, short barrel, light caliber, heavy caliber (I've seen up to .40 caliber wildcats,) suppressor, fixed stock, varying lengths of collapsible stock, side-fold stock, handgrip reciever, flatttop, flattop with Picatinny rails, scope, red dot sight, reflex sight, various lighting units, smooth handguards, guards with more Picatinny rails... The AR platform can basically be made to do anything short of hunting dangerous came requiring a high-powered bolt action, and fitted to *anyone*. Thus, the challenge is not simply assembling it, but assembling the right one for your own unique needs. |
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eriktown
Member since Jan-28-06
175 posts |
Apr-25-16, 11:07 PM (EDT) |
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29. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #27
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LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-16 AT 11:08 PM (EDT) >Amusingly, I've just discovered that Abyssal aircraft carriers like it too. :) Hah, apparently so! I have to admit I kind of want one (an HK rifle, not an Abyssal CV) despite the cost, just because it's so refined for an AR. And you're absolutely right about there being a big custom/homebuilt AR community these days. I get the impression that it's almost exactly like the community of folks who homebuild their PCs out of parts, and like PC builds, a lot of it just comes down to case aesthetics. Yes, I just called the AR-15 the personal computer of assault rifles. That said, once you get into it, you really can customize ARs to a variety of purposes and your own shooting style, and it's apparently fairly easy to do with common tools. I plan on doing it myself eventually. |
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Gryphon
Charter Member
18762 posts |
Apr-27-16, 05:42 PM (EDT) |
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36. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #35
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LAST EDITED ON Apr-27-16 AT 05:42 PM (EDT) >"The thing is, there is no way on this Earth that the BATFE ever >classified new-production Kalashnikov-style "pistols" as Curios and >Relics, so how can their manufacturers get away with selling them, as >I have seen offered online, with 10-inch barrels and shoulder stocks?" > >The loophole is fairly simple: the manufacturer designates a >production run of receivers as "pistols" and *never assembles a stock >onto it*.Well, yes, I get that. I was talking about one I'd found that was being sold, as a pistol, with a 10" barrel and a shoulder stock already on it, which I couldn't figure out the trick of. Upon closer inspection, though, the stock is an aftermarket part, and is in fact secured with, I kid you not, Velcro straps. So I guess that's how they're getting around that. US firearms import regulations are weird enough without skirting the fringes of the NFA (as we will see in the next GOTW). I really wish people wouldn't do stuff like that; it seems me the sport is under sufficient social pressure without people inside it deliberately taunting the muggles. --G. -><- Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ zgryphon at that email service Google has Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. |
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Gryphon
Charter Member
18762 posts |
May-03-17, 01:09 AM (EDT) |
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47. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #0
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>I'm not sure >what that serrated tab in the middle of the shot is supposed to do; >I'm guessing it's another vestigial feature that does something on the >military version and nothing on the rimfire one. OK, on AR-pattern rifles that is apparently the bolt release. I kind of wish I hadn't traded the What The? away now, so I could check and see if it actually does anything thereon. --G. -><- Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ zgryphon at that email service Google has Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. |
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MoonEyes
Member since Jun-29-03
639 posts |
May-03-17, 09:35 AM (EDT) |
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48. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #47
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Umm, yeah, it would be, wouldn't it. The instant thought, originally, for some peculiar reason, was "bolt release=forward assist=that ain't it". Don't ask me why. But, it's why I didn't pipe up with a thought of what it would be. ...! Stoke Mandeville, Esq & The Victorian Ballsmiths "Nobody Want Verdigris-Covered Balls!" |
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Gryphon
Charter Member
18762 posts |
May-03-17, 11:53 AM (EDT) |
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49. "RE: Gun of the Week: ... um, what the?"
In response to message #48
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>Umm, yeah, it would be, wouldn't it. Well, I didn't know, it's not like I've ever handled an M16. --G. -><- Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ zgryphon at that email service Google has Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. |
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version 3.3 © 2001
Eyrie Productions,
Unlimited
Benjamin
D. Hutchins
E P U (Colour)
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