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Subject: "The Triple Crown of training programs..." Archived thread - Read only
 
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Peter Eng
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1451 posts
Oct-25-01, 00:47 AM (EST)
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"The Triple Crown of training programs..."
 
   >
>>...finding somebody who is Force-sensitive, psychic, and has the
>>ability to handle magic is highly improbable.
>
>UF tends to follow one particular Discworld truism: million-to-one
>chances come up nine times out of ten.
>
>>...the person in question would either have no life other than
>>training, or be long-lived, on the order of two to three centuries,
>>minimum.
>
>Not at all. Talent is inborn. Finding someone who -masters- all three,
>now -that- takes some finding.
>

True enough, but I was looking at the time it would take to master all three.

Based on the time from Star Wars to Return of the Jedi, a Jedi can go from student to master in roughly ten years. This is "pressure-cooker" training, though. A more reasonable schedule might run fifteen to twenty years, with the benefit of reducing the risk of falling to the Dark Side. This is full-time training, too.

The time it takes to master telepathy is harder to estimate, depending on how somebody wants to break down what telepathy can do. The telepathic equivalent of the Jedi Mind Trick, putting somebody to sleep, making people think that you aren't there, simple communication, et cetera.

As for mastering magic...that could be a task which takes centuries unto itself. (personally, I'd settle for a spell to keep the rain off of books, so I can read a book outdoors, in the rain, without hauling along a sheeping umbrella.)

So mastering all of these would take anywhere from forty years to centuries. And none of these are fixed arts. They all have the potential to evolve, grow, and change.

Peter Eng

Peter Eng
--
Insert humorous comment here.


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Star Ranger4 Oct-25-01 1
     RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Griever Oct-25-01 2
     RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Laudre Oct-25-01 3
     RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... trussteam Oct-25-01 4
         RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Mephronmoderator Oct-25-01 5
         RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... junipermoderator Oct-25-01 6
             RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Ebony Oct-25-01 7
                 RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... trussteam Oct-25-01 8
                     RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Ebony Oct-26-01 33
                         RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... junipermoderator Oct-27-01 43
  RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... DocMuiteam Oct-25-01 9
     RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Laudre Oct-25-01 10
         RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Astynax Oct-25-01 12
             RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Laudre Oct-25-01 13
                 RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Star Ranger4 Oct-26-01 14
                 RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... zojojojo Oct-26-01 23
                     RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Redneck Oct-26-01 26
                 RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... trigger Oct-26-01 32
                     RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Ebony Oct-26-01 34
                         RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Gryphonadmin Oct-26-01 35
                             RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Star Ranger4 Oct-26-01 36
                                 RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Redneck Oct-26-01 39
                                     RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Star Ranger4 Oct-28-01 46
                     RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Astynax Oct-27-01 41
             RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Redneck Oct-26-01 27
                 RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Astynax Oct-27-01 40
                     RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... drakensisthered Oct-27-01 44
                         RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Astynax Oct-28-01 48
         RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... BobSchroeck Oct-26-01 19
     RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... trigger Oct-25-01 11
         RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... BobSchroeck Oct-26-01 20
             RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... trigger Oct-26-01 31
                 RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... BobSchroeck Oct-28-01 47
         RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Mouz Oct-26-01 38
     RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... remandeteam Oct-26-01 16
         RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Chris Redfield Oct-26-01 17
     RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... remandeteam Oct-26-01 24
     RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Peter Eng Oct-27-01 42
         RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... drakensisthered Oct-27-01 45
  RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Spornoc Oct-26-01 15
     RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Gryphonadmin Oct-26-01 18
         RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... BobSchroeck Oct-26-01 21
         RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... zojojojo Oct-26-01 22
             RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Mephronmoderator Oct-26-01 25
         RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Laudre Oct-26-01 28
             RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Gryphonadmin Oct-26-01 29
                 RE: The Triple Crown of training programs... Mephronmoderator Oct-26-01 30

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Star Ranger4
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Oct-25-01, 01:22 AM (EST)
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1. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #0
 
   >>>...finding somebody who is Force-sensitive, psychic, and has the
>>>ability to handle magic is highly improbable.
>>
>>UF tends to follow one particular Discworld truism: million-to-one
>>chances come up nine times out of ten.
>>
>>>...the person in question would either have no life other than
>>>training, or be long-lived, on the order of two to three centuries,
>>>minimum.
>>
>>Not at all. Talent is inborn. Finding someone who -masters- all three,
>>now -that- takes some finding.
>>
>
>True enough, but I was looking at the time it would take to master all
>three.
>
>Based on the time from Star Wars to Return of the Jedi, a Jedi can go
>from student to master in roughly ten years. This is
>"pressure-cooker" training, though. A more reasonable schedule might
>run fifteen to twenty years, with the benefit of reducing the risk of
>falling to the Dark Side. This is full-time training, too.
>
>The time it takes to master telepathy is harder to estimate, depending
>on how somebody wants to break down what telepathy can do. The
>telepathic equivalent of the Jedi Mind Trick, putting somebody to
>sleep, making people think that you aren't there, simple
>communication, et cetera.
>
>As for mastering magic...that could be a task which takes centuries
>unto itself. (personally, I'd settle for a spell to keep the rain off
>of books, so I can read a book outdoors, in the rain, without hauling
>along a sheeping umbrella.)
>
>So mastering all of these would take anywhere from forty years to
>centuries. And none of these are fixed arts. They all have the
>potential to evolve, grow, and change.
>

Indeed.... sounds like a job for a Dietian, doesn't it?

___________________

Vaughn doesn't know I exist. I guess this explains why the rest of reality keeps ignoring me as well. >_<


Of COURSE you wernt expecting it!
No One expects the FANNISH INQUISITION!
RCW# 86


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Griever
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Oct-25-01, 02:21 AM (EST)
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2. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #1
 
   >Indeed.... sounds like a job for a Dietian, doesn't it?
>

(Resists various diet jokes)
I thought it was Detians .

-Griever
here I am again ^^


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Laudre
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Oct-25-01, 02:28 AM (EST)
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3. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #1
 
   >Indeed.... sounds like a job for a Dietian, doesn't it?

[insert "dietitionist" joke here]

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process


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trussteam
Member since Aug-9-13
Oct-25-01, 10:17 AM (EST)
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4. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #1
 
   LAST EDITED ON Oct-25-01 AT 10:17 AM (EDT)

>>As for mastering magic...that could be a task which takes centuries
>>unto itself.

Well... you never really master magic. There's always more of it to learn.

But it's certainly possible to get a grasp of the basics in a couple of years, provided that you have an aptitude for magic in the first place. You probably wouldn't want to take on Magical Midget Clef in a one-on-one grudge match at that point, but you'd know enough to be useful under the right circumstances (especially if you're up against something mundane). Never underestimate the usefulness of knowing one or two spells when your opponent doesn't know any. :)

--truss.


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Mephronmoderator
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Oct-25-01, 10:54 AM (EST)
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5. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #4
 
   >You probably wouldn't want to take on Magical Midget Clef in a

<SHATTER>

Magical! Midget! Clef!

Gods, it sounds like some weird variant action figure....

--
Geoff Depew - Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Malakite of Lightning and Angel of Tech Support Professionals
(They won't give me LARTs, they say that's restricted to Michael.)

--
Geoff Depew - Darth Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Dark Lord of Sith Tech Support.
"And Remember! Google is your Friend!!"


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junipermoderator
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504 posts
Oct-25-01, 12:25 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #4
 
   >But it's certainly possible to get a grasp of the basics in a couple
>of years, provided that you have an aptitude for magic in the first
>place.

See also: Mia and T'skaia, who both have done at least a little bit of magic on screen, and against each other.

>You probably wouldn't want to take on Magical Midget Clef in a
>one-on-one grudge match at that point, but you'd know enough to be
>useful under the right circumstances (especially if you're up against
>something mundane). Never underestimate the usefulness of knowing one
>or two spells when your opponent doesn't know any. :)

Heh. Sky certainly wasn't expecting Mia to know any. It's always useful to know one or two spells...and even more useful to not have anyone know you know 'em.

-- Juniper

"Lift the world's lid!" ... "For the Revolution of the Restaurant!"
-- Saionji and Miki


Juniper
Rampaging Karateka Crypto-Kwavu'b Contributing Editor (and Moderator)
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited
Because why be ordinary in your choice of hobbies?


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Ebony
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Oct-25-01, 02:04 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #6
 
   >>But it's certainly possible to get a grasp of the basics in a couple
>>of years, provided that you have an aptitude for magic in the first
>>place.
>
>See also: Mia and T'skaia, who both have done at least a little bit of
>magic on screen, and against each other.
>Heh. Sky certainly wasn't expecting Mia to know any. It's always
>useful to know one or two spells...and even more useful to not have
>anyone know you know 'em.

Sky's also from Barsaive, which, if it is anything at all like the canon LRG/FASA Barsaive (not saying that it is but that's the assumption), uses magic like it's going out of style. Picture a Magical Revolution instead of an Industrial, and that's Barsaive. Everything from magically powered cookpots to flying ships. For him, magic would be as common as electricity. If someone did not know/use magic, that'd be unusual.

Of course, I'm just supposing. Doubtless, UF Barsaive differs.

Ebony the Black Dragon
aka Draco Draconis Ebenium
known to FASA as Aaron F. Johnson,
Senior Editor, Living Room Games
http://www.lrgames.com


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trussteam
Member since Aug-9-13
Oct-25-01, 04:33 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #7
 
   >Sky's also from Barsaive, which, if it is anything at all like the
>canon LRG/FASA Barsaive (not saying that it is but that's the
>assumption), uses magic like it's going out of style. Picture a
>Magical Revolution instead of an Industrial, and that's Barsaive.
>Everything from magically powered cookpots to flying ships. For him,
>magic would be as common as electricity. If someone did not know/use
>magic, that'd be unusual.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that (in LRG/FASA Barsaive) only Adepts actually perform magic... and that Adepts aren't really all that common.

Knowing of and/or being able to use a magical device isn't the same as actually being able to fire off a spell. The former is easy (well, relatively :). The latter is what takes training, and even on Barsaive, it's still limited to those who are willing to train for quite a long time.

If anything, I think Barsaivian magic would take longer to learn than certain other styles in UF... it's very regimented, and all that mucking around with spell matrices is a pain in the ass. ;)

--truss.


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Ebony
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Oct-26-01, 07:13 PM (EST)
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33. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #8
 
   >Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that (in
>LRG/FASA Barsaive) only Adepts actually perform magic... and
>that Adepts aren't really all that common.

No, you're correct. My point was that a Barsaivan has a very different attitude about magic than many people. The attitude that I have, for instance, about electricity is pretty blase; I come home, flip on a switch, and there is power for my computer. Can I create electricity? Not without a generator. But my opinion of electricity is that it's commonplace.

Such is the same with magic in Barsaive, and in Earthdawn in general. Mundane magic items can be found wherever there are people. The use of magic is everywhere. People are pretty accepting and unsurprised by magic use, in whatever form it takes. This not to say that they aren't impressed by displays of it; I find power plants (to carry the electricity metaphor further) pretty impressive works of technology. But they accept them as part of everyday life.

>If anything, I think Barsaivian magic would take longer to learn than
>certain other styles in UF... it's very regimented, and all that
>mucking around with spell matrices is a pain in the ass. ;)

You don't have to use matrices. You can cast raw magic, if you really want to. I mean, who needs their sanity? It just gets in the way. And that whole head exploding thing is just an exaggeration. The Horrors are just big, fuzzy, affectionate guys. Verjigorm? Peach of a dude; split his last beer with you. :)

Ebony the Black Dragon
aka Draco Draconis Ebenium
known to FASA as Aaron F. Johnson,
Senior Editor, Living Room Games
http://www.lrgames.com


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junipermoderator
Charter Member
504 posts
Oct-27-01, 00:56 AM (EST)
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43. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #33
 
   >You don't have to use matrices. You can cast raw magic, if you really
>want to. I mean, who needs their sanity? It just gets in the way.
>And that whole head exploding thing is just an exaggeration. The
>Horrors are just big, fuzzy, affectionate guys. Verjigorm? Peach of
>a dude; split his last beer with you. :)

Um. Ebony? How about making some art for me while I go get my nice Named spear here and aim it at you until I see some untainted art...

(And just to keep it on topic, I expect T'skaia's reaction to the non-Barsaivian magic was something along the lines of, "Huh! Cool!" He is, after all, a T'skrang. And T'skrang seem to think most non-icky things are cool.)

-- Juniper

"Lift the world's lid!" ... "For the Revolution of the Restaurant!"
-- Saionji and Miki


Juniper
Rampaging Karateka Crypto-Kwavu'b Contributing Editor (and Moderator)
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited
Because why be ordinary in your choice of hobbies?


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DocMuiteam
Member since Dec-13-05
81 posts
Oct-25-01, 05:51 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #0
 
   >>
>>>...finding somebody who is Force-sensitive, psychic, and has the
>>>ability to handle magic is highly improbable.
>>
>>UF tends to follow one particular Discworld truism: million-to-one
>>chances come up nine times out of ten.
>>
>>>...the person in question would either have no life other than
>>>training, or be long-lived, on the order of two to three centuries,
>>>minimum.
>>
>>Not at all. Talent is inborn. Finding someone who -masters- all three,
>>now -that- takes some finding.
>>
>
>True enough, but I was looking at the time it would take to master all
>three.

While I won't deny that the idea of a person who's managed to go through training for all three disciplines is intriguing, it might be tougher to actually *write* this person. From my POV, this theoretical person is *way* too powerful unless you want to spend loads of time slapping on weaknesses to make them interesting. Does anybody *really* want to see a person who can handle *every* situation with an arsenal like that?

Look at it this way: If this person can't use The Force, then they'll use either magic or psionics. Two out of three "disciplines," I can see as being workable.

On a similar tangent, there *has* been an example of a person who isn't (and can never be) conversant with The Force, a condition called "Force-Blind." IIRC, that would be Washuu. As demonstrated in one of Red's fics, Washuu does not fall prey to The Voice (e.g., I am not here, you will cluck like a chicken, etc.). I'm guessing that this does *not* extend to actual physical manifestations of The Force (e.g., she *will* fry if someone tosses Force Lightning at her), unlike the Ysalamiri in the Zahn novels.

(BTW, can I get any hands on how much of a cheesy plot device that was?)

There is an idea I've toyed with, something called "Psi-dead." This goes in the opposite of psionics, in that the individual has almost *negative* psychic potential. I.e., this theoretical person cannot be scanned (the scan doesn't return anything) and cannot be hurt/manipulated via psionic means. This is a very good reason why Psi-Cops carry PPGs, just in case muttering "pain" over and over doesn't do anything. Theoretically, a well-trained psi-dead assassin with a Predator cloak (or similar concealment device) would take out a *lot* of Psi-Cops.

There would be, however, a catch. Manifestations of psi-dead individuals are unknown among humans (indeed, it's most likely not even in the human genome--and if it *were*, you can bet that the Corps would do everything to make sure it's *out* of the genome real fast), centering mostly on a small population of Zardons.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that, while such a tri-talented character might be cool to think about, they would be a nightmare to write unless you handled them right. Balance things out in creating a character, and you'll save yourself ulcers and white hairs in the long run.

--DocMui


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Laudre
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Oct-25-01, 06:13 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #9
 
   >There is an idea I've toyed with, something called "Psi-dead." This
>goes in the opposite of psionics, in that the individual has almost
>*negative* psychic potential.

Hmmm. GURPS Psionics refers to such entities as psychic voids, IIRC. (And, at the moment, I'm waiting for dinner and am too lazy to go into my bedroom and see if my copy of the book is there or in my storage shed.) There's also people who possess antipsi; not only are they "blank" to a telepath and the like, but either consciously or unconsciously (I forget exactly what the mechanic is) they can cause psi to cease to function in their immediate area. Kind of like psionic ysalamiri.

>I guess what I'm trying to say here is that, while such a tri-talented
>character might be cool to think about, they would be a nightmare to
>write unless you handled them right. Balance things out in creating a
>character, and you'll save yourself ulcers and white hairs in the long
>run.

Oh, no doubt about it. And I fail to see any good reason for a character to do it (well, other than sheer twink value), since the three areas overlap so much in net effect that once you've mastered one and taken steps on another, the returns diminish to the point of uselessness.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process


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Astynax
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Oct-25-01, 10:34 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #10
 
   >Oh, no doubt about it. And I fail to see any good reason for a
>character to do it (well, other than sheer twink value), since the
>three areas overlap so much in net effect that once you've mastered
>one and taken steps on another, the returns diminish to the point of
>uselessness.
>

Actually, as thus presented in EPU canon, not entirely. Thus far, the Psi is largely of highly limited types <Star Trek or B5 universe versions, plus the Pair, but that's REALLY limited if you think about it>. Almost all psi thus far is of the purely mental variety <this is always subject to change, who knows what the powers have planned, but as it's been seen thus far, and shown in the source materials>. Meanwhile, the Force is largely physical/self contained. Other shoving things/people about, making lightning, or internal sensations <premonitions, Jedi reflexes>. The only exception there is communications between Force users, which is far more limited than psi <ref: Devlin and Amanda> for the purpose. Finally, the magic seen thus far is utilized for effects neither psi or Force seem to have influence over, such as large energy discharges, weather effects, teleportation, transmutation, etc.

So, as it stands thus far, the areas don't really overlap all that much <at least not as thus presented in EPU canon>. Sure, if you take the various game system variations on the themes they do, but those are for games, a largely different purpose.

-={(Astynax)}=-
"Darkness beyond Twilight"


-={(Astynax)}=-
"Darkness beyond Twilight"


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Laudre
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Oct-25-01, 10:53 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #12
 
   >Actually, as thus presented in EPU canon, not entirely. Thus far, the
>Psi is largely of highly limited types <Star Trek or B5 universe
>versions, plus the Pair, but that's REALLY limited if you think about
>it>. Almost all psi thus far is of the purely mental variety <this is
>always subject to change, who knows what the powers have planned, but
>as it's been seen thus far, and shown in the source materials>.

Correction: all *human* psi. Gryph stated, recently, that while humans are typically only telepaths, as are Vulcans, there are races that have instances of telekinetics (fr. ex.). And Kei and Yuri are canon precogs.

>Meanwhile, the Force is largely physical/self contained. Other shoving
>things/people about, making lightning, or internal sensations
><premonitions, Jedi reflexes>. The only exception there is
>communications between Force users, which is far more limited than psi
><ref: Devlin and Amanda> for the purpose.

Well, the only canon Force users that I can think of that have been shown on-camera are: Redneck and his master (and Redneck's biological abilities seem to generally supersede his abilities as a Jedi) and Katsujinkenryuuka (and, maybe Utena, though we're not sure about that yet). Gryph, as a Master, can do things like energy bursts, fading from sight, and the like, which definitely overlap with magic; I'm willing to bet that a sufficiently powerful telepath could at least make himself invisible to the mind (not unlike what Gryph has done).

> Finally, the magic seen thus
>far is utilized for effects neither psi or Force seem to have
>influence over, such as large energy discharges, weather effects,
>teleportation, transmutation, etc.

No argument here about how magic is used. But I'm willing to bet that a mage could readily duplicate the effects of psi and of the Force.

Any canonical answers, or would that be telling?

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process


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Star Ranger4
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2206 posts
Oct-26-01, 01:41 AM (EST)
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14. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #13
 
   >>Meanwhile, the Force is largely physical/self contained. Other shoving
>>things/people about, making lightning, or internal sensations
>><premonitions, Jedi reflexes>. The only exception there is
>>communications between Force users, which is far more limited than psi
>><ref: Devlin and Amanda> for the purpose.
>
>Well, the only canon Force users that I can think of that have been
>shown on-camera are: Redneck and his master (and Redneck's biological
>abilities seem to generally supersede his abilities as a Jedi) and
>Katsujinkenryuuka (and, maybe Utena, though we're not sure about that
>yet). Gryph, as a Master, can do things like energy bursts, fading
>from sight, and the like, which definitely overlap with magic; I'm
>willing to bet that a sufficiently powerful telepath could at least
>make himself invisible to the mind (not unlike what Gryph has done).
>

Well, that's not part of his mastry of Katsujinkenryuuka... the fade from sight is part of the "Shadow" persona he picked up... You know, the power to cloud men's minds. I also don't recall any case of him shooting energy bursts... every time he's had technological means such as phazers, guns with 'fold' ammo clips, etc!

OF course, I could be wrong, so if there IS such proof, please point me at it to refresh my memory?

___________________

Vaughn doesn't know I exist. I guess this explains why the rest of reality keeps ignoring me as well. >_<


Of COURSE you wernt expecting it!
No One expects the FANNISH INQUISITION!
RCW# 86


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zojojojo
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Oct-26-01, 08:31 AM (EST)
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23. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #13
 
   snip
>Well, the only canon Force users that I can think of that have been
>shown on-camera are: Redneck and his master
snip
>and, maybe Utena, though we're not sure about that
>yet). Gryph, as a Master, can do things like energy bursts, fading
snip

There is also that Santavasku girl (Mara?) from Redneck's story Privateer: ONe Fine Mess as well as her mom...

-Z

---
We are Dyslexic of Borg. Your ass will be laminated.

-Z


---
Remember kids: guns make you stupid, duct tape makes you smart.


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Redneck
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Oct-26-01, 12:00 PM (EST)
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26. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #23
 
   >snip
>>Well, the only canon Force users that I can think of that have been
>>shown on-camera are: Redneck and his master
>snip
>>and, maybe Utena, though we're not sure about that
>>yet). Gryph, as a Master, can do things like energy bursts, fading
>snip
>
>There is also that Santavasku girl (Mara?) from Redneck's story
>Privateer: ONe Fine Mess as well as her mom...

Rianna, and her mother Kahm. There was also a dark/fallen Jedi woman in that story, but she won't be appearing in -anything- else.

Rianna also has a major supporting role in Wilderness, along with Mayl.

Redneck

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope


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trigger
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1500 posts
Oct-26-01, 05:24 PM (EST)
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32. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #13
 
   LAST EDITED ON Oct-26-01 AT 05:27 PM (EDT)

>Well, the only canon Force users that I can think of that have been
>shown on-camera are: Redneck and his master (and Redneck's biological
>abilities seem to generally supersede his abilities as a Jedi) and
>Katsujinkenryuuka (and, maybe Utena, though we're not sure about that
>yet). Gryph, as a Master, can do things like energy bursts, fading
>from sight, and the like, which definitely overlap with magic; I'm
>willing to bet that a sufficiently powerful telepath could at least
>make himself invisible to the mind (not unlike what Gryph has done).

Kaitlyn has done the latter in Entr'acte: Hogtown Rhapsody during her duel with Utena.


>No argument here about how magic is used. But I'm willing to bet that
>a mage could readily duplicate the effects of psi and of the
>Force.

I think Kris did a good job of answering that one. Why would a mage want to use the same methods? Spell casting might make you unnoticeable with simliar end results, (c.f. Twilight) but completely different means. Although Niccolo might disagree, when it comes to the use of power means matter.

t.
Dragon Slave?! <chortle>

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

Trigger Argee
Manon, Maccadon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

"This isn't exactly the Olympic Games." - Corwin of Amber


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Ebony
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Oct-26-01, 07:18 PM (EST)
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34. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #32
 
   >Kaitlyn has done the latter in Entr'acte: Hogtown Rhapsody
>during her duel with Utena.

I dunno. I got the distinct feeling that she did exactly what she said she did. She went Nowhere. Briefly. Of course, I may be overanalyzing. I'm prone to that sometimes.

Ebony the Black Dragon
aka Draco Draconis Ebenium
known to the Parapsychological Research Institute as Aaron F. Johnson,
Senior Editor, Living Room Games
http://www.lrgames.com


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Gryphonadmin
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Oct-26-01, 07:32 PM (EST)
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35. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #34
 
   >>Kaitlyn has done the latter in Entr'acte: Hogtown Rhapsody
>>during her duel with Utena.
>
>I dunno. I got the distinct feeling that she did exactly what she
>said she did. She went Nowhere. Briefly. Of course, I may be
>overanalyzing. I'm prone to that sometimes.

No, by "nowhere" Kate meant she didn't go anywhere - she'd been right there the whole time. Utena just didn't see her.

(If she'd looked carefully, though, Utena would have seen her shadow... :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Star Ranger4
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Oct-26-01, 10:12 PM (EST)
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36. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #35
 
   >>>Kaitlyn has done the latter in Entr'acte: Hogtown Rhapsody
>>>during her duel with Utena.
>>
>>I dunno. I got the distinct feeling that she did exactly what she
>>said she did. She went Nowhere. Briefly. Of course, I may be
>>overanalyzing. I'm prone to that sometimes.
>
>No, by "nowhere" Kate meant she didn't go anywhere - she'd been right
>there the whole time. Utena just didn't see her.
>
>(If she'd looked carefully, though, Utena would have seen her
>shadow... :)
>

All of which doesnt' contradict what I said... the "shadow" abilities were something Gryph picked up on his own, not as part of Katsu... however the heck you spell it. Granted, Gryph may have added some of it into the form, but he could also have taught Kate that separately.

Gryph? You're going to have to answer this one, I think.


___________________

Vaughn doesn't know I exist. I guess this explains why the rest of reality keeps ignoring me as well. >_<


Of COURSE you wernt expecting it!
No One expects the FANNISH INQUISITION!
RCW# 86


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Redneck
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Oct-26-01, 11:43 PM (EST)
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39. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #36
 
   >All of which doesnt' contradict what I said... the "shadow" abilities
>were something Gryph picked up on his own, not as part of Katsu...
>however the heck you spell it. Granted, Gryph may have added some of
>it into the form, but he could also have taught Kate that separately.
>
>Gryph? You're going to have to answer this one, I think.

He already has, but to make it absolutely plain:

As of the beginning of 2405, Benjamin Hutchins, CINC EoJ, is the -only- extant master of K-ryu.

As such, what he says is K-ryu, whether or not he learned it that way, -is- K-ryu -now.-

If it makes you feel better, recall that masters sometimes add to their martial art; the Cloud-Men's-Minds bit can be one such item.

Redneck

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope


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Star Ranger4
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Oct-28-01, 06:55 PM (EST)
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46. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #39
 
   >He already has, but to make it absolutely plain:
>
>As of the beginning of 2405, Benjamin Hutchins, CINC EoJ, is the
>-only- extant master of K-ryu.
>
>As such, what he says is K-ryu, whether or not he learned it that way,
>-is- K-ryu -now.-
>
>If it makes you feel better, recall that masters sometimes add to
>their martial art; the Cloud-Men's-Minds bit can be one such item.

Close, but not quite... I was trying to understand if Gryph HAD added the power to cloud men's minds to the K-ryu curriculum or if it was something he taught Kate on the side.

Gah... My caffine levels must be dropping again.


___________________

Vaughn doesn't know I exist. I guess this explains why the rest of reality keeps ignoring me as well. >_<


Of COURSE you wernt expecting it!
No One expects the FANNISH INQUISITION!
RCW# 86


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Astynax
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717 posts
Oct-27-01, 00:33 AM (EST)
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41. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #32
 
   >t.
>Dragon Slave?! <chortle>
>

<Note: I'm guessing this reaction is provoked by Redneck's post, I could be wrong...>

Dragon Slave: one of the most powerful spells in the Slayers canon. Originally, it was called 'Dragon Slayer' as that was it's first purpose and use. The name was corrupted over time to 'Dragon Slave' <if they KNEW it was corrupted, I never understood why they didn't fix it, but ::shrug::>. Weilded in the source universe by a thankfully few magic users, the 'Dragon Slave' was easily capable of obliterating towns and small mountains.

<this concludes my offtopic explaination post. You may now return to your on topic messages, already in progress>

-={(Astynax)}=-
"Darkness beyond Twilight"

<yes, my sig is the first line of the spell chant...>


-={(Astynax)}=-
"Darkness beyond Twilight"


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Redneck
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Oct-26-01, 12:24 PM (EST)
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27. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #12
 
   >Actually, as thus presented in EPU canon, not entirely. Thus far, the
>Psi is largely of highly limited types <Star Trek or B5 universe
>versions, plus the Pair, but that's REALLY limited if you think about
>it>. Almost all psi thus far is of the purely mental variety <this is
>always subject to change, who knows what the powers have planned, but
>as it's been seen thus far, and shown in the source materials>.
>Meanwhile, the Force is largely physical/self contained. Other shoving
>things/people about, making lightning, or internal sensations
><premonitions, Jedi reflexes>. The only exception there is
>communications between Force users, which is far more limited than psi
><ref: Devlin and Amanda> for the purpose. Finally, the magic seen thus
>far is utilized for effects neither psi or Force seem to have
>influence over, such as large energy discharges, weather effects,
>teleportation, transmutation, etc.

Okay, in the faint hopes of getting this straight, the three are different because they work on different principles. All three of them are effectively controlled by willpower, and they are often used to achieve similar results, but the differences are roughly like using a plane, a sailboat, or shank's-mare to get from one place to another.

Psi talents are powered entirely by the strength of an individual's mind, and tend to be limited, except in isolated extreme cases, in reach to that person's immediate environment.

Force talents are powered by sensing the lifeforce which connects all things, or at least one's own lifeforce, channeling it and manipulating it to create certain effects. This has more potentially powerful effects than psi, but psi scores over the Force in precision telepathy and certain other aspects.

Magic, put bluntly, is the temporary rewriting of the universe for the user's benefit. A sorcerer's skill is directly in proportion to their intelligence, their training, and their force of personality. There is no -apparent- hard upper or lower limit to what magic can do, but even a tiny screw-up can have REALLY bad consequences.

To give an idea of the general mentality behind the three disciplines...

Hypothetical: Subject is presented with a cave, blocked by an avalanche of large boulders. Subject must clear the cave mouth.

PsiCop: Mentally coerces several people with mining tools to clear the path.
Jedi: Senses the one rock which, when removed, will loosen the rest, and either cuts it or telekinetically nudges it.
Sorcerer: DRAGON SLAVE!

Redneck

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope


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Astynax
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Oct-27-01, 00:26 AM (EST)
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40. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #27
 
   >
>Hypothetical: Subject is presented with a cave, blocked by an
>avalanche of large boulders. Subject must clear the cave mouth.
>

<<snip>>

>Sorcerer: DRAGON SLAVE!
>

eh, only a reckless sorcerer <or sorceress as the case may be> would do that without checking to make sure that wouldn't cause a WORSE avalanche.

-={(Astynax)}=-
"Considering where that spell hails from though, yeah, someone would be setting off the mystic equivalent of a tac nuke, since the only sorcerer who'd actually think of that doesn't know that spell;)"


-={(Astynax)}=-
"Darkness beyond Twilight"


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drakensisthered
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Oct-27-01, 11:39 AM (EST)
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44. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #40
 
   >"Considering where that spell hails from though, yeah, someone would
>be setting off the mystic equivalent of a tac nuke, since the only
>sorcerer who'd actually think of that doesn't know that spell;)"

Zelgadis, I presume?

Be fair, Sylphiel would probably be aware of the consquences, she just doesn't have any alternatives as her next most powerful attack spell is her less than effective Flare Arrow.


drakensisthered

So I simply said one of the great trite truths: "There is generally more than one side to a story." - Corwin, Roger Zelazny's 'Courts of Chaos'


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Astynax
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Oct-28-01, 11:30 PM (EST)
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48. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #44
 
   >>"Considering where that spell hails from though, yeah, someone would
>>be setting off the mystic equivalent of a tac nuke, since the only
>>sorcerer who'd actually think of that doesn't know that spell;)"
>
>Zelgadis, I presume?
>
>Be fair, Sylphiel would probably be aware of the consquences, she just
>doesn't have any alternatives as her next most powerful attack spell
>is her less than effective Flare Arrow.
>
>

Give the fellow a cookie<or cigar depending on preferences>.

And Sylphiel slipped my mind entirely, due to her lack of screen time and general lack of offensive effectiveness.

-={(Astynax)}=-
"Amazed to find so many Slayers fans..."


-={(Astynax)}=-
"Darkness beyond Twilight"


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BobSchroeck
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2192 posts
Oct-26-01, 08:14 AM (EST)
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19. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #10
 
   > There's also people who possess antipsi; not
>only are they "blank" to a telepath and the like, but either
>consciously or unconsciously (I forget exactly what the mechanic is)
>they can cause psi to cease to function in their immediate area.

Depends on the options you buy. By default, it's under control -- meaning you can voluntarily trigger it with a proper skill roll. Of course, if you define "control" based on the skill level, that still may not be completely voluntary.

A side point I'd like to make is that Antipsi, unlike the voids/blanks/whathaveyous, is noticeable -- there's a reason its users are called Screamers, after all.

-- Bob
---------------
Please to remember
Eleven September --
Hijack, destruction and plot.
Our outraged reaction
To terrorist action
Should never be forgot.

-- Bob
-------------------
My race is pacifist and does not believe in war. We kill only out of personal spite.


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trigger
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1500 posts
Oct-25-01, 06:35 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #9
 
   LAST EDITED ON Oct-25-01 AT 06:46 PM (EDT)

LAST EDITED ON Oct-25-01 AT 06:38 PM (EDT)

>There is an idea I've toyed with, something called "Psi-dead." This
>goes in the opposite of psionics, in that the individual has almost
>*negative* psychic potential. I.e., this theoretical person cannot be
>scanned (the scan doesn't return anything) and cannot be
>hurt/manipulated via psionic means. This is a very good reason why
>Psi-Cops carry PPGs, just in case muttering "pain" over and over
>doesn't do anything. Theoretically, a well-trained psi-dead assassin
>with a Predator cloak (or similar concealment device) would take out a
>*lot* of Psi-Cops.

Have you read the Twisted Path? Darlene is effectively psi-dead courtesy of the magic/mind duality Twister thought up. She could likely take out a lot of Psi-corps with her magic, Char, or just her martial arts skill.

>There would be, however, a catch. Manifestations of psi-dead
>individuals are unknown among humans (indeed, it's most likely not
>even in the human genome--and if it *were*, you can bet that the Corps
>would do everything to make sure it's *out* of the genome real fast),

Um...genocide or genetic engineering?

>I guess what I'm trying to say here is that, while such a tri-talented
>character might be cool to think about, they would be a nightmare to
>write unless you handled them right. Balance things out in creating a
>character, and you'll save yourself ulcers and white hairs in the long
>run.

(and now Trigger, on about three types of tylenol, chloroceptic, and about four hours sleep will comment extensively on this paragraph in a rambling manner, because a new Doc Mui character is much more interesting than doing her work or getting her sick ass home and into bed)

The Twisted Path ran into this problem of "I am the most powerful mortal in the universe!". The takahashi solution was a nice deus ex machina for a bunch of situations where the character had to have flaws. As well, Twister introduced the idea of time as being necessary to develop powers. Last but not least, the character had been normal, and so wanted a bit of that back - the X-men hang-up if you will.

The aging process might help - you can't become perfect in everything overnight. Practice makes perfect and raw talent can always be squandered. Perhaps that's why your special Zardons never conquered the universe. What is the lifetime of a Zardon anyway?

The whole "powers show up at puberty" is so annoying, and so if your character didn't need to go through a physical as well as powers change, you might be able to avoid the X-men angst problems which can be so unproductive.

I believe the character of the character matters the most, but a close runner to his/her integrity is context. After all you are either subject to your fate (context) or an actor upon it. Most powerful beings (at least in non-UF fiction) have their context thrust upon them - pasts, lovers, enemies-- that they can't escape. What if your character didn't have that baggage - would they still want to use their powers to the fullest? What if the situtations in which these powers could be used never arose? Or if they did, they could be solved by other means?

In fact, what if the safety of those they loved depended on other means?

Perhaps (and it's a small perhaps) your character could be helped along by the fact that they're not entirely Zardon, but 1/2 human, born on earth and thus possibly pursued by the psi corps - and other unscrupulous groups that want to take advantage of the youth/inexperience/political insecurity of your character. Doesn't UF have a version of Weber's Medusa Corporation?

I'm sure you've known people with great potential whom for reasons of their own, won't use it. Maybe this could be one of them. Maybe that's too Watchmen or something, but the WDF can't save everyone. And some people never realize that they can save themselves.

Just some thoughts from a girl who should be sleeping and not offering advice to some one who is perfectly capable of developing cool character and then churning out wildly popular pieces of fiction.

t.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

Trigger Argee
Manon, Maccadon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

"This isn't exactly the Olympic Games." - Corwin of Amber


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BobSchroeck
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Oct-26-01, 08:19 AM (EST)
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20. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #11
 
   LAST EDITED ON Oct-26-01 AT 08:19 AM (EDT)

>Have you read the Twisted Path? Darlene is effectively psi-dead
>courtesy of the magic/mind duality Twister thought up. She could
>likely take out a lot of Psi-corps with her magic, Char, or just her
>martial arts skill.

He/she/it/them could take out a lot of anything with any of those.

<sigh> Much as I enjoyed the superpowered romp that is Twisted Path, its excesses were some of the primary reasons I decided to write Drunkard's Walk -- those, and a bad superhero insert BGC fic where the SI dropped into a boomer fight, helped the Sabers, then after the introductions were over with said, "Hey, you guys got gravity technology? No? Want some?"

Yeesh.

-- Bob
---------------
Please to remember
Eleven September --
Hijack, destruction and plot.
Our outraged reaction
To terrorist action
Should never be forgot.

-- Bob
-------------------
My race is pacifist and does not believe in war. We kill only out of personal spite.


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trigger
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1500 posts
Oct-26-01, 01:54 PM (EST)
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31. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #20
 
   >those, and a bad superhero insert BGC
>fic where the SI dropped into a boomer fight, helped the Sabers, then
>after the introductions were over with said, "Hey, you guys got
>gravity technology? No? Want some?"
>
>Yeesh.

Ouch. Well, not everyone can write...

t.
or think, or plot, or use logic...

Trigger Argee
Manon, Maccadon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

"This isn't exactly the Olympic Games." - Corwin of Amber


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BobSchroeck
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2192 posts
Oct-28-01, 08:11 PM (EST)
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47. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #31
 
   >Ouch. Well, not everyone can write...
>or think, or plot, or use logic...

<nodnodnod> Fortunately, it ended about there, and the writer never took it back up. Thank the hundred small gods...

-- Bob
---------------
500 plastic ducks.
1 world.
Infinite possibilities.
http://www.ifoundaduck.com

-- Bob
-------------------
My race is pacifist and does not believe in war. We kill only out of personal spite.


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Mouz
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Oct-26-01, 10:59 PM (EST)
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38. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #11
 
  
>Perhaps (and it's a small perhaps) your character could be helped
>along by the fact that they're not entirely Zardon, but 1/2 human,
>born on earth and thus possibly pursued by the psi corps - and other
>unscrupulous groups that want to take advantage of the
>youth/inexperience/political insecurity of your character. Doesn't UF
>have a version of Weber's Medusa Corporation?

Eeep! Quick nit.. That's Manpower Inc. from Mesa, known as the only Corporation in the Honorverse stupid enough to try and use Treecats in order to engineer telepathy into their mass produced clones. Trying to hunt down Treecats strikes me as a rather silly thing to do, what with those wicked claws of theirs. And why would you want to breed telepathy into clones (read slaves) anyway? Suicidal tendencies, perhaps?

/end nit

Mouz

"Kicking a kitten... A grown man punting a kitten when it was looking the other way.. It was the bravest thing I've ever seen."--Torg
Sluggy Freelance ---Worship the Comic--- www.sluggy.com


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remandeteam
Member since Jul-31-07
78 posts
Oct-26-01, 01:52 AM (EST)
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16. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #9
 
   >On a similar tangent, there *has* been an example of a person who
>isn't (and can never be) conversant with The Force, a condition called
>"Force-Blind." IIRC, that would be Washuu. As demonstrated in one of
>Red's fics, Washuu does not fall prey to The Voice (e.g., I am not
>here, you will cluck like a chicken, etc.). I'm guessing that this
>does *not* extend to actual physical manifestations of The Force
>(e.g., she *will* fry if someone tosses Force Lightning at her),
>unlike the Ysalamiri in the Zahn novels.

I think the reference you want is Wilderness, Part 4. With Washuu in the room, Redneck tries the Voice on Washuu's student Gina. Gina and Washuu both recognize the Voice, but Gina is unaffected because she knows how to use it as well.

Washuu doesn't respond to the Voice because she has been around the block so many times that it is a parlor trick to her. Think about it: how old is she?

--rR

--rR


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Chris Redfield
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Oct-26-01, 07:01 AM (EST)
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17. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #16
 
   >Washuu doesn't respond to the Voice because she has been around the
>block so many times that it is a parlor trick to her. Think about it:
>how old is she?
>
> --rR

Dude, thats not a very polite question to ask. ;)
--------------------------------------
God Bless America
Chicken Biscuit $.99
--McDonald's sign in Raleigh, NC

-------------------------------------
Chris can't handle chemicals


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remandeteam
Member since Jul-31-07
78 posts
Oct-26-01, 10:25 AM (EST)
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24. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #9
 
   >There is an idea I've toyed with, something called "Psi-dead." This
>goes in the opposite of psionics, in that the individual has almost
>*negative* psychic potential. I.e., this theoretical person cannot be
>scanned (the scan doesn't return anything) and cannot be
>hurt/manipulated via psionic means. This is a very good reason why
>Psi-Cops carry PPGs, just in case muttering "pain" over and over
>doesn't do anything. Theoretically, a well-trained psi-dead assassin
>with a Predator cloak (or similar concealment device) would take out a
>*lot* of Psi-Cops.

If you go back to Palladium Games' Beyond the Supernatural, you run into a class called the nega-psychic. Psychic theory in Palladium games is that everybody has some psychic power, and most of us use it in mundane ways. Those with a great deal of it channel it into the ways of their unconscious desires. Thus, one psychic might become a "sensitive" (telepath/empath), where another might become a physical psychic (TK and pyrogenesis, etc.)

A nega-psychic is a psychically talented individual that doesn't believe in all this bullshit. Thus, his own psychic abilities conspire to prove him right. Without thinking that he is a psychic (because he doesn't believe that they exist), he is constantly using his psychic abilities to counter any other psychic or magical abilities going on around him.

--rR

--rR


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Peter Eng
Charter Member
1451 posts
Oct-27-01, 00:56 AM (EST)
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42. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #9
 
   >>
>>True enough, but I was looking at the time it would take to master all
>>(magic, psi, and the Force).
>
>While I won't deny that the idea of a person who's managed to go
>through training for all three disciplines is intriguing, it might be
>tougher to actually *write* this person. From my POV, this
>theoretical person is *way* too powerful unless you want to spend
>loads of time slapping on weaknesses to make them interesting. Does
>anybody *really* want to see a person who can handle *every* situation
>with an arsenal like that?
>

Ghidrah's claws, that would be annoying.

I was just pointing out that in the fairly improbable case that somebody had the potential to study all three, the person in question would be studying for most of his life, barring some form of immortality.

I also noted in my original post that any character with all this would be accused of being a SI character, regardless of any similarity or dissimilarity to the author.

>
>I guess what I'm trying to say here is that, while such a tri-talented
>character might be cool to think about, they would be a nightmare to
>write unless you handled them right. Balance things out in creating a
>character, and you'll save yourself ulcers and white hairs in the long
>run.
>

Oh, I've got a better idea. If I ever start writing a character like this, I'll hit myself with a baseball bat.

The closest I've come is a character who is a telepath and a mage, but his psi has a range of six feet, and his magic is not heavily offensive. The most powerful combat spell he has was adapted from "scramble an egg in the shell." It became "scramble the fluid in the inner ear."

Peter Eng

Peter Eng
--
Insert humorous comment here.


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drakensisthered
Charter Member
Oct-27-01, 11:45 AM (EST)
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45. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #42
 
   >The closest I've come is a character who is a telepath and a mage, but
>his psi has a range of six feet, and his magic is not heavily
>offensive. The most powerful combat spell he has was adapted from
>"scramble an egg in the shell." It became "scramble the fluid in the
>inner ear."

Never underestimate the uses of subtle magics. In a recent campaign a bunch of powerful sorceres were pounding an advancing horde, who were too thinned out to suffer enough casualties from any given attack. One Flash-Bang spell in front left them neatly piled up for a holocaust-like attacks to swing the balance. One very little spell in the right can be terrifyingly effective.

A low level mage-psychic-force adept might not be powerful, but would be very flexible in what they could do.


drakensisthered

So I simply said one of the great trite truths: "There is generally more than one side to a story." - Corwin, Roger Zelazny's 'Courts of Chaos'


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Spornoc
Charter Member
Oct-26-01, 01:44 AM (EST)
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15. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #0
 
   >Based on the time from Star Wars to Return of the Jedi, a Jedi can go
>from student to master in roughly ten years.

ummm....master?
sure luke is a full jedi knight by the end of the movies, but i doubt master
there are several of the books that occur 15-20 years later and he's still not sure if he is a master yet


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Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
19256 posts
Oct-26-01, 07:48 AM (EST)
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18. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #15
 
   >>Based on the time from Star Wars to Return of the Jedi, a Jedi can go
>>from student to master in roughly ten years.
>
>ummm....master?
>sure luke is a full jedi knight by the end of the movies, but i doubt
>master
>there are several of the books that occur 15-20 years later and he's
>still not sure if he is a master yet

I feel behooved to point out that Luke Skywalker may be the last Jedi Knight, but he's really not a very good Jedi Knight. Being the Chosen One is all well and good, but... :)

(If you want an example of a fairly young Jedi Master who has appeared in the films, though, Obi-Wan was confirmed as one at the end of Phantom Menace, and he's supposed to be in his early twenties.)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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BobSchroeck
Charter Member
2192 posts
Oct-26-01, 08:23 AM (EST)
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21. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #18
 
   >(If you want an example of a fairly young Jedi Master who has appeared
>in the films, though, Obi-Wan was confirmed as one at the end of
>Phantom Menace, and he's supposed to be in his early twenties.)

If we go by the evidence of Anakin and Luke, he may well be a master, but he ain't no great shakes as a teacher. Anakin got great Force training and appears to have been skimped on the self-control/ethics/whatever, while Luke seems to have gotten a bit of the inverse. Give the ghost another student, and maybe he'll find a balanced course of instruction, finally...

-- Bob
---------------
Please to remember
Eleven September --
Hijack, destruction and plot.
Our outraged reaction
To terrorist action
Should never be forgot.

-- Bob
-------------------
My race is pacifist and does not believe in war. We kill only out of personal spite.


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zojojojo
Charter Member
610 posts
Oct-26-01, 08:26 AM (EST)
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22. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #18
 
   >>>Based on the time from Star Wars to Return of the Jedi, a Jedi can go
>>>from student to master in roughly ten years.
>>
>>ummm....master?
>>sure luke is a full jedi knight by the end of the movies, but i doubt
>>master
>>there are several of the books that occur 15-20 years later and he's
>>still not sure if he is a master yet
>
>I feel behooved to point out that Luke Skywalker may be the
>last Jedi Knight, but he's really not a very good Jedi
>Knight. Being the Chosen One is all well and good, but... :)

I feel behooved (there's an odd term... I don't have any hooves...) to point out that, being the last Jedi Knight, there is nobody around who can really grant him Master status. Presumably, there is some sort of test he has to pass, and I rather doubt that the Ghosts of Jedis Past can do that... Though I did, at some point, have a comic in which there was a Jedi tree... Come to think of it, that may say something about the usefulness of this comic as a source....

-Z

---
We are Dyslexic of Borg. Your ass will be laminated.

-Z


---
Remember kids: guns make you stupid, duct tape makes you smart.


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Mephronmoderator
Charter Member
1763 posts
Oct-26-01, 10:42 AM (EST)
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25. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #22
 
   >I feel behooved (there's an odd term... I don't have any hooves...) to
>point out that, being the last Jedi Knight, there is nobody around who
>can really grant him Master status. Presumably, there is some sort of
>test he has to pass, and I rather doubt that the Ghosts of Jedis Past
>can do that...

Well, there's ONE way.

But it would involve HIM being a ghost too.

Which might not be a bad thing overall.

--
Geoff Depew - Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Malakite of Lightning and Angel of Tech Support Professionals
(They won't give me LARTs, they say that's restricted to Michael.)

--
Geoff Depew - Darth Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Dark Lord of Sith Tech Support.
"And Remember! Google is your Friend!!"


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Laudre
Charter Member
Oct-26-01, 12:38 PM (EST)
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28. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #18
 
   >(If you want an example of a fairly young Jedi Master who has appeared
>in the films, though, Obi-Wan was confirmed as one at the end of
>Phantom Menace, and he's supposed to be in his early twenties.)

...Okay, now it's my turn to be pedantic.

Obi-Wan was made a Jedi Knight at the end of TPM. Not Master. I don't think even defeating a Sith Lord will take a Jedi from Padawan to Master in one leap.

Secondly, based on all available sources, the youngest he could possibly be is 28. If you base it on his age stated as of ANH in one of the character guides (60), and go backwards from there, he's 28. (TPM is set 32 years before the Battle of Yavin.) Based on the official (not canon, official) literature, his age in TPM is 33: he was the unusually old age of 13 when he became Qui-Gon's Padawan (young Jedi usually become Padawans at around 8 or 9, after preliminary training under, in the TPM timeframe, Master Yoda -- cf "Jedi Apprentice" novels), and, according to the novelization, Obi-Wan had been Qui-Gon's Padawan for twenty years as of TPM. It is stated in the novel that Obi-Wan looks like he's in his early twenties to Qui-Gon.

Obi-Wan doesn't become a Jedi Master for some time. As for Luke... he takes the title of Master, eventually, because he knows more about the Jedi ways than any other living being in his time, and he's the most powerful Jedi alive to boot, but he's not absolutely sure about his own mastery.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process


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Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
19256 posts
Oct-26-01, 12:50 PM (EST)
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29. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #28
 
   >>(If you want an example of a fairly young Jedi Master who has appeared
>>in the films, though, Obi-Wan was confirmed as one at the end of
>>Phantom Menace, and he's supposed to be in his early twenties.)
>
>...Okay, now it's my turn to be pedantic.
>
>Obi-Wan was made a Jedi Knight at the end of TPM. Not
>Master.

They gave him a student. That makes him a master.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Mephronmoderator
Charter Member
1763 posts
Oct-26-01, 01:19 PM (EST)
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30. "RE: The Triple Crown of training programs..."
In response to message #29
 
   >They gave him a student. That makes him a master.

forking commentary to general

--
Geoff Depew - Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Malakite of Lightning and Angel of Tech Support Professionals
(They won't give me LARTs, they say that's restricted to Michael.)

--
Geoff Depew - Darth Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Dark Lord of Sith Tech Support.
"And Remember! Google is your Friend!!"


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