Which makes sense if you think about species as nations. I'll roll with that.

>What crisis? The Earth Alliance is adamant that, aside from some minor
>disruptions at Proxima Centauri, things have never been more
>hunky-dory. Starfleet, which is becoming more pure-human with each
>day, agrees.

Oooh. Scary. I take it that ex-Starfleet personnel is returning to their home planets/cultures?

>The situation- officially- is one of one big happy loving galaxy.
>Unofficially... it's rather like having a family member you can't
>STAND over for Thanksgiving, and you smile big and try to pretend you
>don't hate their guts.

Why would Earth Alliance put up with the EOJ? Just how powerful is it?

>Orbiting Epsilon III.

A re-read makes it clear. The drive test was from Epsilon III to Earth? In 45 minutes? Like wow. Are they folding or using Transwarp drive...and wait a minute -- How did Gryphon get Earth Alliance permission to bring Challenger within Earth orbit?

>What makes you think EarthForce -isn't- patrolling?

Bad assumption. I take it EOJ invited itself to the party? Why the lack of confidence in EarthForce?

>>What sort of problems can EOJ deter by being in the area?
>Troublesome sorts.

<rolls eyes> Very helpful. I guess we'll just wait until Network 23 breaks the news...

>>How is Bablyon Station effected by the Psi Act?
>At the moment, it's not, since the Epsilon system is not an
>Earth-aligned colony.

But isn't Bablyon station Earth Alliance controlled? Or has there been a change in management? I thought Earth held sovereignty over the Babylon stations? Why wouldn't the Act apply just to the station?

danke,
t.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

Trigger Argee
Manon, Maccadon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

The IPO is fairly new, but has a lot of powerful supporters. The United Federation of Planets is slowly but surely turning into a front for Earthforce, but a few years ago when it still had power, it backed the founding of the IPO wholeheartedly. Support is still widespread and strong, from such potent Federation-member allies as Vulcan, Salusia, and Cybertron. Salusia may not be the seat of galactic power any more, but it still has a lot of pull; the Vulcans are still acknowledged as the galaxy's intellectual leaders; and Cybertron is the only currently extant ancient civilization that will talk to anybody, so their backing carries a lot of weight (plus, their leaders are all well-respected and renowned).

Additionally, the IPO's mandate is supported by various non-UFP states, some of them quite weighty, such as the Klingon Empire (the IPO Space Force's other ship - at this point it only has two - is a Klingon Imperial Navy battlecruiser).

If the Earth Alliance, a signatory to the international agreement establishing the Babylon Foundation and the IPO, were to renounce its support and declare itself hostile to the Experts and their nascent Space Force, it would not sit well with the IPO's remaining supporters, and wouldn't fit into the image of galactic happiness the EA is trying to project; so they haven't done it yet.

>>Orbiting Epsilon III.
>
>A re-read makes it clear. The drive test was from Epsilon III to
>Earth? In 45 minutes? Like wow. Are they folding or using Transwarp
>drive...

Epsilon Eridani is a fairly close neighbor of Sol; at Warp 15 it's not much of a trip.

>and wait a minute -- How did Gryphon get Earth Alliance
>permission to bring Challenger within Earth orbit?

As mentioned above, the Earth Alliance is a signatory to the IPO charter. As such, they have to permit IPO operations within their territory.

>>What makes you think EarthForce -isn't- patrolling?
>
>Bad assumption. I take it EOJ invited itself to the party? Why the
>lack of confidence in EarthForce?

Babylon isn't an Earthforce station. It is (or will be, when it's complete) the headquarters and meeting place for the Babylon Foundation, a diplomatic gathering intended to bolster galactic cooperation and provide a focus point for the common defense in the event of an extragalactic invasion. It's operated by the IPO, in cooperation with Starfleet, the Wedge Defense Force, and the government of Epsilon III.

Therefore, it's not that the Experts are inviting themselves to the party so much as that Earthforce is inviting itself. The Earthforce ships patrolling the construction zone are as much there to keep an eye on the IPO operations as to watch out for the project's interests.

>>>What sort of problems can EOJ deter by being in the area?
>>Troublesome sorts.
>
><rolls eyes> Very helpful. I guess we'll just wait until Network 23
>breaks the news...

Problems like the sabotage and destruction of the first three Babylon stations and the inexplicable disappearance of the fourth.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Or maybe the WDF or the Freespacers

>>The situation- officially- is one of one big happy loving galaxy.
>>Unofficially... it's rather like having a family member you can't
>>STAND over for Thanksgiving, and you smile big and try to pretend you
>>don't hate their guts.
>
>Why would Earth Alliance put up with the EOJ? Just how powerful is
>it?

EOJ was probably sanctioned by the Federation. As a member of the Federation, the EA has to deal with them. They probably aren't considered a real threat. I have the impression that they aren't really a large military force like the WDF now is.

>>Orbiting Epsilon III.
>
>A re-read makes it clear. The drive test was from Epsilon III to
>Earth? In 45 minutes? Like wow. Are they folding or using Transwarp
>drive...and wait a minute -- How did Gryphon get Earth Alliance
>permission to bring Challenger within Earth orbit?

Why would they mind one little ship coming to orbit their planet? There is no war going on between EA and anyone, there was a small police action on an EA colony that was handled entirely internally. Everythings fine here, nothing to see. Move along.

>>What makes you think EarthForce -isn't- patrolling?
>
>Bad assumption. I take it EOJ invited itself to the party? Why the
>lack of confidence in EarthForce?

Things have gone wrong with the Previous Babylon stations that were under EarthForce watch.

>>>What sort of problems can EOJ deter by being in the area?
>>Troublesome sorts.
>
><rolls eyes> Very helpful. I guess we'll just wait until Network 23
>breaks the news...

I think of the EOJ as a giant SWAT team as opposed to a military group, not that I'm not known for being wrong.

>>>How is Bablyon Station effected by the Psi Act?
>>At the moment, it's not, since the Epsilon system is not an
>>Earth-aligned colony.
>
>But isn't Bablyon station Earth Alliance controlled? Or has there
>been a change in management? I thought Earth held sovereignty over
>the Babylon stations? Why wouldn't the Act apply just to the station?

Its still under construction isn't it?

-----------------------------------
Chris can't handle Electronic Arts

Indeed, a good many Starfleeters who are getting tired of that organization's growing human bias are joining those two forces; some have also left Starfleet to help start up the IPO Space Force. Note that not all of these are non-humans; human officers can take the high road out of idealism too...

>Why would they mind one little ship coming to orbit their planet?

While this is essentially correct, I must take exception at any reference to the Sovereign class as "little". :)

(Heh. The other day I re-watched First Contact; at one point Commander Riker says of the Defiant, "Tough little ship," causing Worf to give him a dirty look and rumble, "Little?" The Klingon hasn't got a leg to stand on, though; the Defiant is a tough little ship. That's its whole purpose.)

>I think of the EOJ as a giant SWAT team as opposed to a military
>group, not that I'm not known for being wrong.

That's more or less accurate. The International Police Organization's main function - that served by the blue jumpsuiters and the super-agents called the Experts of Justice (though in common parlance, the EoJ label gets applied to the whole organization more often than not) - is the investigation and interdiction of criminal activities which are beyond the ability of most regular police organizations to cope with. It's sort of like what the 3WA used to do, before they turned into insurance adjusters in hot pants, except with a more personal touch (and more superpowers among the high-end agents).

The IPO Space Force is a newly formed branch which is supposed to act as a high-flexibility strike and response force, since there are some threats out there powerful enough to have their own spacecraft. Its mission hasn't been entirely defined yet, since right now its entire complement is busy keeping an eye on the Babylon site.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Incidental note #1: The Freespacer nation tends to grow whenever there is serious Galactic upheaval, and to grow much more slowly in times of peace. As of the Second Battle of Zeta Cygni, the official population of the Confederate Freespacer Alliance was about one and a half million sentients.

There's a bit of text written but not yet released which may require correction, but in the seventeen years since that population has -doubled- to just over three million people. (I figured this out after actually sitting down and working out that, under the old number, roughly one out of every six Freespacers was in the CFMF itself. The new population figure reduces that to about one in ten, which is still a -very- high number, indicating just how much in subsidies for various sources the fleet is getting... and also just how great a demand there is for RebelTech weapons and other supplies.)

Anyway, a doubling of the Freespacer population in a period which is -officially- peaceful ought to tell you quite a bit...

Incidental note #2: For every disgruntled Starfleet officer who finds a better offer elsewhere (like, say, city dogcatcher in Neo-Tokyo), there's another idealist who believes that they can make a difference if they stay in and work within the system to preserve it.

>>Why would they mind one little ship coming to orbit their planet?

>(Heh. The other day I re-watched First Contact; at one point
>Commander Riker says of the Defiant, "Tough little ship,"
>causing Worf to give him a dirty look and rumble, "Little?"
>The Klingon hasn't got a leg to stand on, though; the Defiant
>is a tough little ship. That's its whole purpose.)

A Freespacer would have responded, "Yep. It makes a harder target that way."

Redneck

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope

Which is fortunate, because if Jean-Luc Picard wanted to join the IPO Space Force, I'd have to take a desk job to give him a ship he wouldn't be wasted commanding. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Dibs on Will Riker. }:-{D

Redneck

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope

That's negotiable... you can have Tom Riker if you want. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Yeah, because the CFMF ain't got -enough- antisocial loose cannons. }:-{D

Redneck (besides, I don't believe in transporter clones)

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope

Neither do I, but I did write my college entrance essay on them.

Does UF have cloning?

t.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

Trigger Argee
Manon, Maccadon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

Sure. The Deunan Knute who turns up in Crossroads is a clone of the one who was in Altered Appleseed, with a memory-RNA transfer (one of the few things I've borrowed from Paranoia, a game I, on the whole, can't stand) to give her continuity of identity.

You don't see them often in the 25th century, though. The practice has fallen out of vogue.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

That's fascinating. Why did she clone herself? Lifespan?

t.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

Trigger Argee
Manon, Maccadon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

Yup. In one of the original Appleseed manga, an eccentric merchant, taking her for a bioroid, tells Deunan she'll only sell her the item she wants if she promises never to have a life-extension treatment. Deunan laughs and replies, "I can't, I'm not a bioroid. Anyway, when my time comes I'm going to have a clone made."

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

And now, an explanation for the Great Starfleet Exodus of the 24th and 25th centuries, where anyone worth taking ends up in other military forces:

Remember, Starfleet has evolved beyond such primitive concepts as "money".

The EoJ, the WDF, and the CFMF all pay, cash if you want it. And any salary is a lot better than zero.

;^>

--rR

(And millions of dead bankers, economists, shopkeepers, etc. stand up as one and shout: "Bullshit.")

Redneck (no money? not a chance)

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope

See, there's a point where technology can render all concepts of money meaningless, by making anything available to anybody, with no such thing as rarity or lack of supply. Within the Trek-canon UFP, it's quite possible that money isn't so much nonexistent as just plain irrelevant, society having reached some kind of socialist ideal, where the needs and wants of the citizenry are provided for with no serious cost or strain on the industrial complex or need for fiscal exchange. A utopia, to be certain. Still, it's demonstrated quite plainly that the UFP does have trade with other political entities, and that money still exists; the Ferengi trade in gold-pressed latinum, for example. And I do believe that cost is an issue that Starfleet occasionally deals with in terms of building their fleet, although it's usually more a matter of production time that limits their fleet construction.

The UF Federation? I doubt it's nearly so utopian. SotS makes it quite plain that in Earthdome, at least, money still matters quite a bit.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

Nope. There's an episode of DS9 in which Jake struggles to obtain a rare baseball card as a gift for Cpt. Sisko. Unfortunately, as a human, he has no money- and thus he has to go to incredible lengths to get the card from the aliens who own it. It's made very, -very- plain that humans do not use money for -any- reason, but work on barter or credit when dealing with other races... a very stupid system, as Jake's plight demonstrates.

A moneyless society only works if (a) there is no desire for possessions, and (b) if you don't need or want anything from any society that -does- use money. Since there are tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of different societies in UF, abolishing the money concept is just plain... illogical. }:-{D

Redneck

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope

Utopia, in the sense of internal harmony, and neither need nor want. There are exceptions, and there are collectors and whatnot. I vaguely remember the episode you're talking about; as I recall, Nog helped him in his difficulties. As I said, within the UFP, money is largely irrelevant; one of the recurring motifs in DS9 was that, for the rest of the galaxy, this wasn't the case.

>A moneyless society only works if (a) there is no desire for
>possessions,

Not quite the case in TNG/DS9/VOY-era Trek. The existence of replicators means that, unless you want the original of something (such as Jake's desire for that rare baseball card), most things can be obtained by simply asking the nearest computer for one. To the citizenry of the UFP, most of the time, the lack of money in their society simplifies things; occasionally, though, there are issues. And not all humans go without using money; Kasidy operates a trading ship, for instance.

>and (b) if you don't need or want anything from any
>society that -does- use money.

See above, in regards to Trek.

> Since there are tens, maybe hundreds of
>thousands of different societies in UF, abolishing the money concept
>is just plain... illogical. }:-{D

As I said. There's no indication that the UF version of the Federation is moneyless; quite the contrary, in fact.

I just wouldn't be too eager to be a moneychanger ^_^. (You could make a lot of money, but Jesus, what a headache.)

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

>I just wouldn't be too eager to be a moneychanger ^_^. (You could
>make a lot of money, but Jesus, what a headache.)

Well, if you hadn't been doing it in the temple, He wouldn't have beaned you with his walking stick. }:-{D

Redneck (yay, sacrilege)

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope

*laugh*

Actually, this is sacrilege. But it looks like fun.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

Well, fortunately, you don't have to; that's what the Hutts and the Ferengi are for.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Here here. I'd have to agree. We know that starfleet normally doesn't use money; yet you have places where goods and services are exchanged. This seems to me that Sean's on the right track here... its just that they don't USE money. And given the high numbers of everyone else in the galaxy who does, I think its pretty clear that the UF SF does use money and does pay its officers. Just not that much because most of their needs are meet by the fleet and the fleets replicators, (err. IF Replicator tech exists. Suddenly I think I recall certain authors not liking the idea, or at least how it was used in one series) and they only need cash when going out on leave on planets like Zardon, Zeta Cigni, etc...

___________________

Vaughn doesn't know I exist. I guess this explains why the rest of reality keeps ignoring me as well. >_<

Replicator tech does -not- exist.

There are two ways of going about it- either replicators create matter out of raw energy, which is so energy-expensive as to be absurd, or else they create the matter by converting matter to energy and back, which is expensive -and- dangerous.

Remember, the transporters are almost -always- the first things cut off when a starship loses power. They are -very- energy-intensive and computer-intensive to operate. They can cause all sorts of problems with the most minor of malfunctions. This is not a technology you want to base an economy on.

And the conversion between economies, hoo boy. We are talking -complete- economic chaos. One day you're self-sufficient, money in the bank- and the next, well, you better just hope the village replicator never breaks down.

And finally, if you have all your needs supplied for you, what motivation do you have to -do- anything? In the 24th century ST universe, I see the *vast* majority of the people on the dole, doing nothing, contributing nothing, because they no longer have any motivation at all. Worse yet, I see more people supplanting a greed for money with a greed for power... and going into politics... that -would- explain why the Federation seems like such a shithole in TNG/DS9.

So no, no replicators in UF, not now not ever. I hope.

Redneck

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope

There are things that are called replicators, but their function is such that they really ought to have been called "duplicators".

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

The desire not to feel useless.

>In the 24th century ST
>universe, I see the *vast* majority of the people on the dole, doing
>nothing, contributing nothing, because they no longer have any
>motivation at all.

Sorry, can't agree with this at all. Not out of utopian sentiment, but because I can testify firsthand -- as I'm sure anyone who has been out of work for any length of time can -- that the feeling of being useless is worse than being overworked. I see people always looking out for something to do; an explosion of artists, historians, researchers, writers, musicians, who may be mediocre, but they're doing what they love, not what they have to do to pay the rent. And that makes a big difference. Sisko's father runs a restaurant in New Orleans because he just loves cooking for people. Jake Sisko is becoming a writer, and a better and better known one. Many UFP citizens, more than they can take in peacetime (see that TNG episode where Picard has his artificial heart upgraded or whatever, and Wesley has his first attempt at getting into the Academy), try to enter Starfleet. UFP citizens are probably more productive than members of a society where people have to work to make ends meet, because it's in human (and alien, since there's not a big difference between humans and aliens in Trek) nature to want to do something rather than nothing, and people in the UFP do things because they want to, not because they have to. Why else would they join Starfleet? Or found the Maquis?

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process

Or they've just stopped recruiting nonhumans.

>>The situation- officially- is one of one big happy loving galaxy.
>>Unofficially... it's rather like having a family member you can't
>>STAND over for Thanksgiving, and you smile big and try to pretend you
>>don't hate their guts.
>
>Why would Earth Alliance put up with the EOJ? Just how powerful is
>it?

Given that the EoJ were able to afford to develope and build the Challenger, substantially so. And the EA really can't express its displeasure, seeing as how the EoJ are stalwart upholders of law and order. Even if you'd really rather that they were upholding your law and order, it just wouldn't be civilized to try and squash them.

>>Orbiting Epsilon III.
>
>A re-read makes it clear. The drive test was from Epsilon III to
>Earth? In 45 minutes? Like wow. Are they folding or using Transwarp
>drive...and wait a minute -- How did Gryphon get Earth Alliance
>permission to bring Challenger within Earth orbit?

The EoJ are the _good guys_. Why would Earthdome have any objection to a group of heroes and do-gooders showing up to make their jurisdiction a better place?

>>What makes you think EarthForce -isn't- patrolling?
>
>Bad assumption. I take it EOJ invited itself to the party? Why the
>lack of confidence in EarthForce?

Ummm... Cause their jurisdiction is Terran space only. And 'cause the first four Babylon stations went kablooey.

>>>What sort of problems can EOJ deter by being in the area?
>>Troublesome sorts.
>
><rolls eyes> Very helpful. I guess we'll just wait until Network 23
>breaks the news...

Obnoxious, ain't he? </bugs>

>>>How is Bablyon Station effected by the Psi Act?
>>At the moment, it's not, since the Epsilon system is not an
>>Earth-aligned colony.
>
>But isn't Bablyon station Earth Alliance controlled? Or has there
>been a change in management? I thought Earth held sovereignty over
>the Babylon stations? Why wouldn't the Act apply just to the station?

Babylon is only an EA thing in B5. Not in UF.

>Denton, never leave home without it.

Denton, Texas?

Blessed be.
Nathan Baxter
('Cause they got a _good_ bookstore, man.)

Hmm, doesn't that contradict the whole "we're one big galactic family" image? I don't think they could do that and still be a Federation.

>>Why would Earth Alliance put up with the EOJ? Just how powerful is
>>it?
>Given that the EoJ were able to afford to develope and build the
>Challenger, substantially so. And the EA really can't express
>its displeasure, seeing as how the EoJ are stalwart upholders of law
>and order. Even if you'd really rather that they were upholding
>your law and order, it just wouldn't be civilized to try and
>squash them.

Hmmm. But we do it all the time. That's why most powerful states make the UN so unhappy. Is there a group out there who determines what galactic law will be? I thought the Galactic assembly was disbanded. Does the Federation have a simliar group? Do they determine international law?

>>Bad assumption. I take it EOJ invited itself to the party? Why the
>>lack of confidence in EarthForce?
>Ummm... Cause their jurisdiction is Terran space only. And 'cause the
>first four Babylon stations went kablooey.

I think Earthforce kinda goes where ever it wants in the Federation. As observers only mind you...

>>Denton, never leave home without it.
>
>Denton, Texas?

Nope, the nifty pistol packed in my purse.

t.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

Trigger Argee
Manon, Maccadon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

Yes, yes it does; but then it's already been established that the United Federation of Planets has, over the last several years (since the election of the current President of the Federation Council, an Earthman), started to look more and more like a pretty front-end attached to the Earth Alliance.

>Hmmm. But we do it all the time. That's why most powerful
>states make the UN so unhappy. Is there a group out there who
>determines what galactic law will be? I thought the Galactic assembly
>was disbanded. Does the Federation have a simliar group? Do they
>determine international law?

The Federation Council and the governing bodies of the various non-Federation-member states who maintain diplomatic relations with it (mainly the Klingon High Council, the Romulan Praetorate, and the Cardassian... whatever they call their ruling body, I forget) develop international law jointly, with responsibility for enforcement falling primarily to Starfleet.

The United Galactica was dissolved in the 2300s after a short but messy civil war; the Federation is its replacement, designed in hopes that it would be a more effective, less corruption-prone body for establishing the tranquility and prosperity of the galactic community.

>I think Earthforce kinda goes where ever it wants in the Federation.
>As observers only mind you...

Like any other member-state's military force, Earthforce can travel freely within the Federation's international space (sort of like international waters); to enter a star system belonging to a member other than the EA, they need the local government's permission, or they'd better be prepared to justify their actions to the Federation Council.

This was more of a problem, of course, before they more or less dominated the Federation Council, but...

In the case of their patrols of the Babylon construction site, the Earthforce contingent is there with the rather grudging permission of the local government (as opposed to the Starfleet, IPO SF, Freespacer and WDF forces, who are there by invitation).

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/