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Subject: "Visibility." Archived thread - Read only
 
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Conferences Symphony of the Sword / The Order of the Rose Topic #200
Reading Topic #200
wsr
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Jun-01-07, 09:52 AM (EST)
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"Visibility."
 
   First, a tiny bit of introduction, then the griping ^_^

I got into _UF_ in high school, long ago when the internet was flat, '93/'94 or so. I still have a shell function in my bash aliases file, to call up www.eyrie.net/nxe in lynx, even though I bailed on 3:3 for several years before I went back and finished it.

I indentured myself to the army instead of finishing off college, and am back in Iraq for a second deployment right now.

_The Iron Age_ drew me back in about three weeks ago, and led me to start reading _Symphony of the Sword_. Once I started _SotS_ it sucked down all my non-working awake time until a couple days ago, when I finished it, and this is adapted from my whinging on livejournal ^_^

As I read, a couple things stood out:

In _SotS_ I didn't see a single gay couple. Juri notes the f/f couple when she's first out with Kaitlyn, and that's about it for on-screen relationships that don't involve named characters.

There are no gay boys, no f/m/m groups, and no explanation why, despite verbose prose and a very detailed background. Five to ten percent of the population just _vanished_ without even an a claim by one of the characters that `they're boring, so I ignore them' or somesuch.

In contrast, there are _three_ f/f/m triads, and, historically in _UF_, we have Asrial's harem as well, even though we don't see most of them in _SotS_ . . .

This falls on top of what irritated me all out of proportion to it's actual significance: All three of the triads formed during _SotS_ were an established f/f pairing which brought in a male. Amanda/Rina/Devlin works in large part because we, as the audience, met them all about the same time, and two of them are aliens, so . . .

Utena and Corwin had a _long_ time put into developing their relationship, and folding Anthy into it, so, while it _annoys_ me to see anyone else in with Utena and Anthy, it'd annoy me if Corwin was female, too, so . . .

Kaitlyn and Juri and Miki . . . umm. In their own story, with their own build up, without the other two triads already in this story . . . But they're not. Storywise, it's real sudden, but at least they seem happy with themselves and each other.

Rather more annoying is the way Anthy and Utena seem to have fallen straight into Lesbian Bed Death. They are married on the same day Anthy is rescued from Cephiro, sent off for only a three day honeymoon, and then we have no more on screen physical affection between them than they share with any of the other females.

I mean, it's not like I'm going to stop reading, but it's _annoying_.


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Visibility. Meagen Jun-01-07 1
     RE: Visibility. wsr Jun-01-07 4
         RE: Visibility. Matrix Dragon Jun-01-07 8
         RE: Visibility. Gryphonadmin Jun-02-07 10
             RE: Visibility. wsr Jun-02-07 14
             RE: Visibility. asuffield Jun-06-07 24
  RE: Visibility. Gryphonadmin Jun-01-07 2
     RE: Visibility. Wedge Jun-01-07 3
     RE: Visibility. wsr Jun-01-07 5
         RE: Visibility. Sofaspud Jun-01-07 6
         RE: Visibility. FubarObfusco Jun-02-07 12
             RE: Visibility. Gryphonadmin Jun-02-07 13
             RE: Visibility. wsr Jun-02-07 15
  RE: Visibility. Star Ranger4 Jun-01-07 7
  RE: Visibility. trussteam Jun-01-07 9
     RE: Visibility. clg Jun-02-07 11
     RE: Visibility. Pasha Jun-02-07 16
         RE: Visibility. Gryphonadmin Jun-02-07 17
             RE: Visibility. Pasha Jun-05-07 18
                 RE: Visibility. Gryphonadmin Jun-05-07 19
                     RE: Visibility. Shaithisx Jun-05-07 20
                         RE: Visibility. Gryphonadmin Jun-06-07 23
                             RE: Visibility. Shaithisx Jun-06-07 25
                                 RE: Visibility. Gryphonadmin Jun-06-07 26
                                 RE: Visibility. Pasha Jun-06-07 27
                     RE: Visibility. Pasha Jun-05-07 21
                         RE: Visibility. BZArchermoderator Jun-05-07 22
                             RE: Visibility. Sofaspud Jun-07-07 28
                                 RE: Visibility. Gryphonadmin Jun-07-07 29

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Meagen
Member since Jul-14-02
551 posts
Jun-01-07, 11:30 AM (EST)
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1. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #0
 
   Dunno about the rest, but I'll field this one.

>Rather more annoying is the way Anthy and Utena seem to have fallen
>straight into Lesbian Bed Death. They are married on the same day
>Anthy is rescued from Cephiro, sent off for only a three day
>honeymoon, and then we have no more on screen physical affection
>between them than they share with any of the other females.

Eh, I don't really need any explicit lesbian scenes in my space opera. It's pretty clear that they have been enjoying their marriage. In Page of Swords, set three years after their honeymoon, Juniper is cautioned to knock first when looking for the Tenjous in their bedroom. Small details like that.

--
With great power come great perks.


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wsr
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Jun-01-07, 12:40 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #1
 
   >Eh, I don't really need any explicit lesbian scenes in my space opera.

It doesn't need to be explicit to show that there's an actual, physical attraction.

Both of them are repeatedly described as mostly straight, so if that physical attraction is there, it needs to be shown, or it will be assumed _not_ to be.

For example, in the scene at the end of Per Ardua Utena describes Anthy as `adorable', and they cuddle and fall asleep. There are several very similar scenes, with one or both of them coming in.

They don't seem to really look at each other, to notice each other physically. There are no admiring glances, no momentary contemplation of the lay of a hand or the curve of a jaw, no indicators of attraction.

They don't seem at all frustrated when circumstances step on them, not even a single `I wish we weren't so tired' when snuggling against a sleepy spouse.

>It's pretty clear that they have been enjoying their marriage.

Their interactions read `good friend' more than `lovers,' contrasting the deep UST of the TV series and movie.

They read as that stereotypical couple, married for fifty years, who still love each other but are too tired to do anything about it.

>In Page of Swords, set three years after their honeymoon, Juniper
>is cautioned to knock first when looking for the Tenjous in their
>bedroom. Small details like that.

Page of Swords is the first place _since_ their honeymoon where they show anything more than affection and loyalty.

There's nothing wrong with affection and loyalty, but I want to read them as capital-H Happy, not just kinda content. ^^;


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Matrix Dragon
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Jun-01-07, 10:28 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #4
 
   You forget. Utena isn't gay. She's Anthysexual. That relationship isn't about the bodies, although I suspect Utenas come to appreciate it :P

Secondly, their love for each other revolutionized an entire reality. They don't need to be capital-H Happy, they have the universe proving they're hopelessly in love. They're allowed to be content.

Besides, you want proof of love and devotion? Go reread any scene that involves them in combat, especially Valiant Rose and the Revolution will be televised.

Matrix Dragon, J. Random Nutter


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Gryphonadmin
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Jun-02-07, 00:28 AM (EST)
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10. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #4
 
   >Both of them are repeatedly described as mostly straight, so if that
>physical attraction is there, it needs to be shown, or it will be
>assumed _not_ to be.

So noted.

Funny story, though. A few years ago, when Symphony No. 2 was just wrapping up, we had a visitor here on the boards who took us to task at some length for implying too much. It was really rather amusing - well, here, <http://www.eyrie-productions.com/Forum/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=469&forum=DCForumID1|see for yourself>.

So for a new user to pop in and take us to task for, essentially, not implying enough? Well, you can see why we might've found that... a bit funny, and a bit irksome, at the same time. :)

>Their interactions read `good friend' more than `lovers,' contrasting
>the deep UST of the TV series and movie.

I can't speak to the movie, or what any of the TLAs you've used in your posts mean (I suspect they're artifacts of a scene I'm not into?), but attempting to glark this one from context, I have to say I didn't take a lot of that away from the TV series. To me, Utena seems to spend most of the series going "What in the hell am I doing?" more than anything else.

But then, she does a lot of that with regard to a lot of things, not just her love life. It's her, how you say, idiom. :)

>Page of Swords is the first place _since_ their honeymoon where
>they show anything more than affection and loyalty.

To be fair, most of the intervening time takes place off-screen...

But I see what you're getting at. I have, perhaps, been remiss in this regard, though it was not a deliberate omission. If anything, it stems from my own unconscious assumption that the matter was established and settled to the point where it didn't need to be reinforced - and anyway, I was busy trying to establish other matters to a similar degree (that is, in a way, what the whole Fourth Symphony's "background hum" is about, after all).

So, yeah. Didn't leave it out on purpose, but it can be argued, as you have, that it did get left out.

Unrelatedly, you're on the ground in-country right now? I think that's a first here. We've got quite a few military or ex-military readers, but we only tend to see them on these boards when they're stateside (or aboard ship - we do get the occasional swabbie :).

Stay safe, inasmuch as it's possible over there.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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wsr
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Jun-02-07, 07:11 AM (EST)
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14. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #10
 
   >>Both of them are repeatedly described as mostly straight, so if that
>>physical attraction is there, it needs to be shown, or it will be
>>assumed _not_ to be.
>So noted.

>Funny story, though. A few years ago, when Symphony No. 2 was
>just wrapping up, we had a visitor here on the boards who took us to
>task at some length for implying too much. It was really
>rather amusing - well, here,
<snip>

goodness, that got a lot of traffic. I was in my second week at basic training, by the timestamps.

>So for a new user to pop in and take us to task for, essentially, not
>implying enough? Well, you can see why we might've found that... a
>bit funny, and a bit irksome, at the same time. :)

Yes, I can see that ^_^

>>Their interactions read `good friend' more than `lovers,' contrasting
>>the deep UST of the TV series and movie.
>I can't speak to the movie, or what any of the TLAs you've used in
>your posts mean (I suspect they're artifacts of a scene I'm not
>into?)

UST: unresolved sexual tension.

>but attempting to glark this one from context, I have to say I
>didn't take a lot of that away from the TV series. To me, Utena seems
>to spend most of the series going "What in the hell am I
>doing?" more than anything else.

and `why the heck am I doing this' and the occasional `why the heck am I watching Anthy like that'

>>Page of Swords is the first place _since_ their honeymoon where
>>they show anything more than affection and loyalty.
>To be fair, most of the intervening time takes place off-screen...

True.

>But I see what you're getting at. I have, perhaps, been remiss in
>this regard, though it was not a deliberate omission. If anything, it
>stems from my own unconscious assumption that the matter was
>established and settled to the point where it didn't need to be
>reinforced

It doesn't need _much_ reinforcement, just enough to show that they do find each other attractive, not just comforting and trusted.

The way they interact already would be enough if it wasn't for the way they're nearly as affectionate towards their friends as they are towards each other, so there's no contrast, if you get what I mean?

>and anyway, I was busy trying to establish other
>matters to a similar degree (that is, in a way, what the whole Fourth
>Symphony's "background hum" is about, after all).

Yep. You do a good job showing that both of them find Corwin attractive, but skimp their attraction for each other.

>So, yeah. Didn't leave it out on purpose, but it can be argued, as
>you have, that it did get left out.

If you did leave it out on purpose, that could make a good story too, but I think it'd take a bit more work.

I firmly believe one can be freinds with someone one's attracted too, and in love with someone one isn't attracted to. I also believe that the first state is a lot easier to maintain . . .

>Unrelatedly, you're on the ground in-country right now?

Baghdad.

>I think that's a first here.

interesting, that ^_^

> We've got quite a few military or ex-military
>readers, but we only tend to see them on these boards when they're
>stateside (or aboard ship - we do get the occasional swabbie :).

I'm not surprised, really -- both stateside and shipboard tend to be a lot more stable than out here.

We've managed to have internet most of this tour, which is good . . . but maybe I'd get some writing done if I didn't.

>Stay safe, inasmuch as it's possible over there.

I'll do my best.


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asuffield
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Jun-06-07, 05:34 AM (EST)
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24. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #10
 
   >>Page of Swords is the first place _since_ their honeymoon where
>>they show anything more than affection and loyalty.
>
>To be fair, most of the intervening time takes place off-screen...
>
>But I see what you're getting at. I have, perhaps, been remiss in
>this regard, though it was not a deliberate omission. If anything, it
>stems from my own unconscious assumption that the matter was
>established and settled to the point where it didn't need to be
>reinforced - and anyway, I was busy trying to establish other
>matters to a similar degree (that is, in a way, what the whole Fourth
>Symphony's "background hum" is about, after all).
>
>So, yeah. Didn't leave it out on purpose, but it can be argued, as
>you have, that it did get left out.

Observation: most newlyweds are unbearable to watch, in the sense of "Get a room and stay in it until you get it out of your systems". It could be argued that the original purpose of the honeymoon is to spare their friends and family from having to experience this.

I'm not sure whether that means we should have seen more or that we shouldn't. Perhaps both.


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Gryphonadmin
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19252 posts
Jun-01-07, 12:10 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #0
 
   >There are no gay boys

Well, apart from Beld Marmo, and Garon Dessler does make a pass at Devlin once, only Devlin's too drunk to notice. Oh, and there's all that subtext with Akio and Touga (who, if you take their wretched mistreatment of Nanami into account, meet your "male-male-female" criteria for some twisted value of "meet"), the latter of whom has, in the past, at least tried to score with both Miki and Saionji.

>no explanation why

Didn't come up. Simple as that.

Want it even balder? I can hook you up. It's real simple: I'm not into that, and I tend to mostly write about what I'm into. Oh, sure, there are other issues - the proportion is similarly off in much of the source material, for instance, which isn't surprising when you consider that "what I'm into" also governs my selection of same. But mainly it's just that I don't much care to write about the hot man-love.

Double standard? Probably. Woefully under-representational of a rich and vibrant section of our great tapestry of life? Certainly. But that's the way I roll sometimes.

>Rather more annoying is the way Anthy and Utena seem to have fallen
>straight into Lesbian Bed Death. They are married on the same day
>Anthy is rescued from Cephiro, sent off for only a three day
>honeymoon, and then we have no more on screen physical affection
>between them than they share with any of the other females.

Oh, now you're just reaching. They only went on a three-day honeymoon because they only had three days, and as for the rest, well, just because I'm not the go-to guy for lurid detail doesn't mean they're not gettin' it on. It's just that this is a mental TV show most of the time, and there's a lot of stuff that doesn't happen on screen, you know?

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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Wedge
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Jun-01-07, 12:26 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #2
 
   >But mainly it's just that I don't much care to write about the hot
>man-love.

Planet Silverlake.


Chad Collier
Smirking Kilrathi
The Captain of the Gravy Train
"Nobody gives them a flag in Silverlake."


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wsr
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Jun-01-07, 02:28 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #2
 
   >>There are no gay boys
>Well, apart from Beld Marmo, and Garon Dessler does make a pass at
>Devlin once, only Devlin's too drunk to notice.

_Doh_

I retract the claim, and blame it on staying up 'til past midnight every night from when I started reading until when I finished, and the night I spent out pulling security while Iraqi Army guys moved concrete barriers around 'til four in the morning . . .

>Oh, and there's all
>that subtext with Akio and Touga (who, if you take their wretched
>mistreatment of Nanami into account, meet your "male-male-female"
>criteria for some twisted value of "meet"), the latter of whom has, in
>the past, at least tried to score with both Miki and Saionji.

Akio's a demon, so I didn't even think of him ^^; But I count EPLs, so EPGs should count, too . . .

Akio never reads as doing anything for love, or even lust, it's all power and dominance.

>>no explanation why
>Didn't come up. Simple as that.

Having forgotten Beld, it was an issue. Having remembered him, and having remembered being amused by Garon's pass, the issue fades -- there's no need to mention why there's no gay boys if they're just boring ^^;

>Want it even balder? I can hook you up. It's real simple: I'm not
>into that, and I tend to mostly write about what I'm into.
<snippage>

Exactly. Never said you shouldn't.

On the other hand, a few of the characters would notice, either because it's unusual for them or because they had their gaydar twigged -- not necessarily by named characters, just the couple in the booth at Chets, or the trio walking down the sidewalk with a few shopping bags, unless they are hiding or not there.

Corwin -- he'd never bat an eye, because for him it's familiar and uninteresting both.

Anthy'd probably get a kick out of it, any time she notices, the way I think maybe Iraq isn't entirely screwed up when I see a pair of schoolgirls or bearded guys walking hand-in-hand, even though I know it's not nearly as good an indicator over here as it would be stateside.

>Double standard? Probably. Woefully under-representational of a rich
>and vibrant section of our great tapestry of life? Certainly. But
>that's the way I roll sometimes.

Don't take this as an attack at all -- it's just something that wouldn't let go of me after I noticed it, even if I did notice it during a bout of sleep-deprived forgetfullness.

>>Rather more annoying is the way Anthy and Utena seem to have fallen
>>straight into Lesbian Bed Death. They are married on the same day
>>Anthy is rescued from Cephiro, sent off for only a three day
>>honeymoon, and then we have no more on screen physical affection
>>between them than they share with any of the other females.

>Oh, now you're just reaching. They only went on a three-day honeymoon
>because they only had three days,

Right. And neither of them is given to wistful sighing or romantic twaddle, but it comes off as very anti-climatic, as if _all_ they're feeling about being back together is relieved.

>and as for the rest, well,
>just because I'm not the go-to guy for lurid detail doesn't mean
>they're not gettin' it on.

Yep, but you're painting a picture with words here, and the picture is generally clear, well-rendered, but passionless. They're very comfortable with each other. They trust each other. They just don't come off as _into_ each other. Adorable isn't lovely isn't pretty isn't beautiful isn't sexy.

>It's just that this is a mental TV show most of the time, and there's a lot of
>stuff that doesn't happen on screen, you know?

Yes, but there are ways of showing what is happening without showing it: we see Kirk pulling his boots on in the morning in ST:TOS, or Misa zipping up her top in _Macross: Do You Remember Love_, or Tara's little crooked `isn't she lovely' smiles on BtvS.

It is in such ways that we know most of the named characters are both getting some, and liking it . . .

Sorry if I've come off as accusatory, as that wasn't my intent.


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Sofaspud
Member since Apr-7-06
257 posts
Jun-01-07, 07:34 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #5
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jun-01-07 AT 07:43 PM (EDT)
 
Hrm. In my opinion (take it for what it's worth ;), you're snagging on something that really just doesn't matter.

In one of the stories -- forgive me if I don't look it up, but I don't think SotS has a full-text index anywhere *I* can reach -- it's mentioned that same-sex couples are A-OK in the modern galaxy -- marriage and children included. Quite explicitly it states this, if I remember correctly. Now, the *action* may all be focused on hot lesbian love-fests (with the occasional sneaky sausage finding its way in there), but that's not due to some twisted desire on the authors' parts to 'vanish' a significant portion of the population, but rather, because the characters just happen to BE that way. As Gryphon has stated numerous times, quite often the characters end up driving the bus -- and that's the mark of a good story, I think; your characters SHOULD surprise you, because otherwise, you're just wanking and waving the results around like they're something unique.

Since there aren't really any gay men who have a lot of screen time, you don't 'see' it, but that doesn't mean it's vanished. Would you rather they beat us over the head with how progressive and modern and liberal and accepting the future is? I personally have no need for that -- in fact, if it came across that way, I'd probably stop reading, since that's a mark of condescension on the part of the author towards their audience.

I guess what I'm saying is, just because you don't SEE the hot man-love doesn't mean it isn't happening. I personally think of it this way: for every male-male couple we DON'T explicitly see wandering around, there are literally thousands that the on-screen characters aren't surprised or shocked by enough to comment on. And THAT's a good thing.

Hopefully I'm making sense. :)

On edit: I shall now step off my soapbox and address the OTHER part of your post, which I actually intended to do from the start. I got sidetracked.

Perhaps I'm cynical -- strike that, I *am* cynical -- but I don't need constant reaffirmations of undying love from my romantic partners, and I hope they don't need it either. I think the couples/triads you mention here are the same way. They're all -- even Anthy, who had probably one of the most fucked-up backstories of ANY of them -- independent, strong-willed, competent, and self-reliant. In short, the sort of person who may pull some romantic stunt out of the blue just because, but won't do it every day because there's no need: they KNOW the other person(s) loves them, they KNOW they love the other person(s), why get all caught up in proving it?

Also, this is Space Opera, not Harlequin in Space. :) Traditionally, the former has not really had much in the way of love scenes or even demonstrations of affection. As a matter of fact, I can't recall all that many GOOD Space Operas that even HAD demonstrative romantic involvements. I'm not talking one-shot lust-fests, but a long-lasting marriage or equivalent like the characters in SotS have.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that SotS has the most extensive network of romance I've yet see in a space opera-style piece, and the amazing thing about it is that it works. Hell, in some cases it's essential to the story, which (aside from the Kidnapped Princess gambit) is hardly typical for this genre.

I'll wrap up with that, I think. I'm probably beginning to ramble. :)

--sofaspud
--


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FubarObfusco
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Jun-02-07, 01:36 AM (EST)
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12. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #5
 
   >Yes, but there are ways of showing what is happening without showing
>it: we see Kirk pulling his boots on in the morning in ST:TOS, or Misa
>zipping up her top in _Macross: Do You Remember Love_, or Tara's
>little crooked `isn't she lovely' smiles on BtvS.

Dude. Tara and Willow were much more obviously "into each other" -- and oh, quite literally -- than that.

Perhaps you're forgetting "Once More With Feeling".

"You make me come ... ... ... plete" ring a bell?

Honestly, UF doesn't really need anything quite that blatant, does it?


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Gryphonadmin
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19252 posts
Jun-02-07, 02:00 AM (EST)
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13. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #12
 
   >Honestly, UF doesn't really need anything quite that blatant, does it?

It could be argued that we've occasionally had things that blatant, but I don't customarily go looking for opportunities to use them.

Then again, I'm not a big Mutant Enemy fan, so I only know what the hell you're talking about thanks to a phenomenon I can only describe as cultural lint accumulation.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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wsr
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Jun-02-07, 11:55 AM (EST)
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15. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #12
 
   >><snip>or Tara's
>>little crooked `isn't she lovely' smiles on BtvS.
>Dude. Tara and Willow were much more obviously "into each other" --
>and oh, quite literally -- than that.

At times, yes, but the subtle `isn't she great' looks of quiet adoration are what's missing, not the cuddled up in bed together scenes.

>Perhaps you're forgetting <snip>

I stopped watching BtVS very shortly after that, partly because I was without a TV for four months, but mostly because the sinking dread that I'd been feeling since the start of season six came to a head.

>Honestly, UF doesn't really need anything quite that blatant, does it?

Didn't say it did.

With a visual medium, one can be a little more subtle since there is a lot of detail to play with. With text, it's more difficult to quietly say something, but not impossible.

"Jim pulled his boots on afterwards" isn't nearly as subtle as the original, nor is "Misa tugged her flightsuit's zipper up as they walk out to greet the sound of engines", nor "Caught admiring Willow's hand in her own, Tara couldn't help the half-smile that twinkled in her eyes as the other woman's blush just barely touches the tips of her ears." Amusingly, the last one says the most and implies the least.


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Star Ranger4
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2206 posts
Jun-01-07, 08:58 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #0
 
   Dude. Your reading WAY to much into this.

Remember that its just a story and you really should RELAX


Of COURSE you wernt expecting it!
No One expects the FANNISH INQUISITION!
RCW# 86


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trussteam
Member since Aug-9-13
Jun-01-07, 11:58 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #0
 
   Dude, you read NXE, and you completely missed the whole Tabris/Jon thing?

...ok, I suppose that's fair, because so did Jon. But, still. ;)


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clg
Member since Sep-20-05
108 posts
Jun-02-07, 01:08 AM (EST)
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11. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #9
 
   There was a Tabris/Jon thing? Huh. Not a huge surprise given the source material, but... huh. I guess it's hard to see because, on all but one occasion when Tabris and Jon are together, Rei is present as well, and they had rather weightier matters to deal with on that one occasion.

Well, at least the end of 3:9 makes more sense.

- Chad

- Chad


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Pasha
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Jun-02-07, 06:17 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #9
 
   >Dude, you read NXE, and you completely missed the whole Tabris/Jon
>thing?
>
>...ok, I suppose that's fair, because so did Jon. But, still. ;)

...yeah, there was a tabris Jon thing? hunh?

--
-Pasha
"I invented Warp Drive, whatta ya got?"
"I'm the Norse God of Mecha."
"Well, I guess you win then."


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Gryphonadmin
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19252 posts
Jun-02-07, 06:22 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #16
 
   >>Dude, you read NXE, and you completely missed the whole Tabris/Jon
>>thing?
>>
>>...ok, I suppose that's fair, because so did Jon. But, still. ;)
>
>...yeah, there was a tabris Jon thing? hunh?

If Phil Thorne were still around here, I'd ask him what the point of having subtext is if nobody's going to pay attention to it...

--G.
"And all this time," [Rei] said, "I thought it was because of me..."
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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Pasha
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Jun-05-07, 05:09 AM (EST)
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18. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #17
 
   >If Phil Thorne were still around here, I'd ask him what the point of
>having subtext is if nobody's going to pay attention to it...
>
>--G.
>"And all this time," [Rei] said, "I thought it was because of
>me..."

...I just went grepping through the NXE text for Tabris/Kevin Nelson, *looking* for subtext. And, with the exception of that one kiss, I don't really see anything that's subtexty saying that Kevin had a crush on Jon. But, it's also like, two in the damned morning, so maybe I just missed it.

-Pasha
"I invented Warp Drive, whatta ya got?"
"I'm the Norse God of Mecha."
"Well, I guess you win then."


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Gryphonadmin
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19252 posts
Jun-05-07, 12:19 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #18
 
   >...I just went grepping through the NXE text for Tabris/Kevin Nelson,
>*looking* for subtext. And, with the exception of that one kiss, I
>don't really see anything that's subtexty saying that Kevin had a
>crush on Jon.

It goes rather beyond having a crush. Tabris abandons even the pretense of neutrality expected of his Choir and, in essence, shatters his own soul
as part of his determined efforts throughout the Third Symphony to make sure that Jon and Rei sort out their baggage, realize their potential, and eventually, well, save the world. Rei, who had known him longer, tacitly assumed that this was at least partly out of some hopeless, misguided devotion to her. As it turns out, she was half right.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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Shaithisx
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43 posts
Jun-05-07, 02:21 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #19
 
   *blink* Whoa! Never caught that at all! I thought the line was Rei joking about Jon having a fondness for Angels in general instead of Rei in particular.

I got a couple points for catching an inference but lost all the points since I got the prime participants wrong.

Not that I want to heap work on the editors shoulders, but this and my question about DJ's (to me) mysterious burned hands way back at the start makes me wish for Annotations for NXE like the SOS ones.

ShaithisXL (the amused)

In Chaos, there is Opportunity


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Gryphonadmin
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19252 posts
Jun-06-07, 02:07 AM (EST)
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23. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #20
 
   >Not that I want to heap work on the editors shoulders, but this and my
>question about DJ's (to me) mysterious burned hands way back at the
>start makes me wish for Annotations for NXE like the SOS ones.

Heh, I've considered it. The main problems are:

1) I would have to re-read the first season; and
2) At this point, I'm not sure we would remember what the hell we were driving at with half of that stuff. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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Shaithisx
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43 posts
Jun-06-07, 09:13 AM (EST)
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25. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #23
 
   Again, I'm not trying to press the point, so I'll just say this and then drop it.

If going back to the start is too stressing, maybe just the last season or the movie? (Not that a Directors Cut with Commentary of NXE:AN wouldn't be a pretty taxing task.)

*shrugs* While it would be very cool for a little more insight, I am content with occasional glimpses behind the curtain that we get. The most unique aspect of all the Eyrie works is the fact the readers have the chance to speak with the writers and editors. For me, that is a big plus to an already entertaining and stimulating series.

ShaithisXL (the interested)

In Chaos, there is Opportunity


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Gryphonadmin
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19252 posts
Jun-06-07, 01:35 PM (EST)
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26. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #25
 
   >(Not that a Directors Cut with Commentary of
>NXE:AN wouldn't be a pretty taxing task.)

Yeah, we had plans for (and may still do) an Apotheosis Now "DVD edition", with a bunch of extra stuff, some deleted scenes, some made-up deleted scenes, and so on, but not long after the movie came out, I moved back to Maine, Truss moved in with his girlfriend (not that I'm in any way blaming her, specifically), we all discovered City of Heroes, and Zoner got down to the important and time-consuming task of working himself to death, so we've never got round to it yet. A "commentary track" would have been (and may yet be, one of these days) a logical part of that.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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Pasha
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964 posts
Jun-06-07, 05:34 PM (EST)
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27. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #25
 
   >*shrugs* While it would be very cool for a little more insight, I am
>content with occasional glimpses behind the curtain that we get. The
>most unique aspect of all the Eyrie works is the fact the readers have
>the chance to speak with the writers and editors. For me, that is a
>big plus to an already entertaining and stimulating series.


Leaving aside the "most unique", most authors (not even web authors) these days have message boards, or e-mail addresses at least, that they reply to in a very timely fashion. :)

--
-Pasha
"I invented Warp Drive, whatta ya got?"
"I'm the Norse God of Mecha."
"Well, I guess you win then."


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Pasha
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964 posts
Jun-05-07, 02:23 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #19
 
   >It goes rather beyond having a crush. Tabris abandons even the
>pretense of neutrality expected of his Choir and, in essence,
>shatters his own soul
>as part of his determined efforts throughout the Third Symphony to
>make sure that Jon and Rei sort out their baggage, realize their
>potential, and eventually, well, save the world. Rei, who had known
>him longer, tacitly assumed that this was at least partly out of some
>hopeless, misguided devotion to her. As it turns out, she was half
>right.

Ok, I'll take your word for it, because you're smart about stuff like this. But I *totally* missed that, on multiple re-reads. I mean, I got that Tabris<1> was broken because he was helping the humans, but I thought it was more Humanity in general, and not specifically Jon and Rei. *shrug*

--
-Pasha
"I invented Warp Drive, whatta ya got?"
"I'm the Norse God of Mecha."
"Well, I guess you win then."
<1> Totally aside, my fingers have the hardest time typing 'Tabris' and not 'Travis'. It takes me two or three tries every time.


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BZArchermoderator
Member since Nov-9-05
1668 posts
Jun-05-07, 08:33 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #21
 
   I think the key moment comes back in 3-5...

Kevin smiled. "Not necessarily. He loves you, you love him,
or the song wouldn't have worked."
"What about you?" she wondered. "You were singing too."
"Balance," Kevin replied. "Am I not of the Choir of Elohim?"
Rei nodded, but Kevin hadn't met her eyes when he said it.

Like the bossman said, he's not singing because of balance. He's singing because he loves Jon, too.

---------------------------
Matt "BZArcher" Wagner
@BZArcher / bzarcher at gmail
"Here's an itemized list of 30
years of disagreements!"


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Sofaspud
Member since Apr-7-06
257 posts
Jun-07-07, 00:07 AM (EST)
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28. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #22
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-07 AT 00:09 AM (EDT)
 
>I think the key moment comes back in 3-5...
>...snip...
>Like the bossman said, he's not singing because of balance. He's
>singing because he loves Jon, too.

I would just like to point out that, throughout this Tabris<->Jon discussion, and even through a quick skim of the source, I had -- for whatever undoubtedly screwed up reason -- I had it stuck in my head that Jon? Was Truss. (Well, it's an easy mistake... Jon Ellison, John Trussell, y'know... easy, right?)

And for the life of me I couldn't find ANY subtext where Tabris even hinted at caring about Truss.

Someday I'll get this whole 'reading for comprehension' thing, I swear.

--sofaspud
--


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Gryphonadmin
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19252 posts
Jun-07-07, 00:11 AM (EST)
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29. "RE: Visibility."
In response to message #28
 
   >And for the life of me I couldn't find ANY subtext where Tabris even
>hinted at caring about Truss.

"In a jailhouse interview this week, serial killer Charles Manson said that J.D. Salinger's The Catcher in the Rye was his favorite book. J.D. Salinger refused to comment on this matter, so we asked Pierre Salinger, who said sure, he could comment, but he didn't know J.D. Salinger, we said what the hell, forget it."
- Dennis Miller, Saturday Night Live Weekend Update, 150,000 years ago

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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