I'll blush quietly and say that I'm one of those writers who is thankful for Word's spellchecker. "Star Fleet" has a space, eh... Interesting.

>Anyway. I don't know. I only know fairly dimly about Section 31's
>existence in Trek, having encountered it in a single novel
>(Cloak). Offhand, I would doubt it, if only because I don't
>think I need another Shadowy Force of Questionable Moral
>Standing in the UF universe right now.

Cloak was what prompted my asking. It sort of made me curious as to the proportions of the BlackOps (Blackops?) on Earth in UF. Thanks!

>The WDF doesn't have black agencies.

Wow. I am amazed and impressed at the same time. Schway.

>I dunno, probably. If it's the one I'm thinking of (from - wince -
>Shadows of the Empire?), I'm not particularly enamored of the
>design and so probably won't be using it anyplace, but it's a big
>universe and CEC's been in business for a long time.

That's the one, Dash Rendar's Outrider.

>The version with the cockpit module front and center (YT-2000, I
>think?) from X-Wing Alliance is around; we'll probably be
>seeing one of those later (much later) on.

I thiiiink, fromthe way you described it, that's basically the same model. Think anyway.

Static-Pulse
i Speel god
- the most impulsive post alive
DarkBeast.com

Actually, no; your error was the second capitalization in all three one-word terms, at least for UF purposes.

>>I dunno, probably. If it's the one I'm thinking of (from - wince -
>>Shadows of the Empire?), I'm not particularly enamored of the
>>design and so probably won't be using it anyplace, but it's a big
>>universe and CEC's been in business for a long time.
>
>That's the one, Dash Rendar's Outrider.

BLECH. There is absolutely no reason for a variable-configuration freighter, especially one with a flip-over cockpit. I forget who did that comic series, but the visual designer should have been -shot.-

Redneck

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope

I was not aware that the variable-configuration feature was canon in anything but the toy. Very interesting. Thank you.

Static-Pulse
- the most impulsive post alive
DarkBeast.com

Back in their Goofy Period (1966-1978, roughly), Desilu/Paramount spelled it that way; then they woke up one morning, during prep for Star Trek: The Motion Picture and realized it was silly that way. Some things hung on with the "Star Fleet" construction for years afterward (FASA's Star Trek RPG, for instance), but it's spelled without the space in TMP. (I can't tell about the capital 'f', since it's written in all caps when we see it on screen, but I would hope that mankind will have grown out of InterCapping by the 23rd century. :)

The correct names for those four agencies in UF are "Starfleet", "Earthforce", "Earthdome" and "Psi Corps" - you took the space out of the only one that needed it. :)

>>The version with the cockpit module front and center (YT-2000, I
>>think?) from X-Wing Alliance is around; we'll probably be
>>seeing one of those later (much later) on.
>
>I thiiiink, fromthe way you described it, that's basically the same
>model. Think anyway.

Not quite. I've done a bit of digging around - I thought I remembered digging up a picture of a YT-2000 for a development project a year or two back, and I was right:

Outrider is very different. I don't dislike it with Kris's vehemence, but it's not one of my favorite designs either. I think Steve Perry is a pretty good writer - I greatly enjoyed his episodes of Batman: The Animated Series and his Matador novels - and the concept of a novel with a soundtrack appealed to me for obvious reasons, but overall, Shadows disappointed me considerably.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Well, I've seen drawings of the Outrider, and I have to agree that I don't like it much either. Never read Shadows, so I can't say much about Dash, though. Somehow, though, the Outrider just seemed wrong... much to small to be of any pracical use except if you stripped everything else out and made it into a Asteroid racer.

The YT-2000, though, looks like it might have promise... but then again, it also looks rather small for any sort of real cargo... probobly makes a great smuggler ship, since they tend to very small, high value, cargos.

___________________

Vaughn doesn't know I exist. I guess this explains why the rest of reality keeps ignoring me as well. >_<

I have to agree on the comic not being too good. The novel version was alright, and the game was mostly pretty poor. The only real good bits were when you got to fly the Outrider or man the turrets. If that had been improved, I wouldn't have sold it for $20.

>Well, I've seen drawings of the Outrider, and I have to agree that I
>don't like it much either. Never read Shadows, so I can't say much
>about Dash, though. Somehow, though, the Outrider just seemed
>wrong... much to small to be of any pracical use except if you
>stripped everything else out and made it into a Asteroid racer.

The Outrider, and Dash himself, are just there to make up for the absence of Han. Dash is really nothing more then a copy of Han with more ego, and the Outrider is his Falcon. I actually like the design, but it doesn't match to the more famous YT-1300 series. Might make a half decent asteroid racer, but there's nowhere for the Reflex Cannon....

>The YT-2000, though, looks like it might have promise... but then
>again, it also looks rather small for any sort of real cargo...
>probobly makes a great smuggler ship, since they tend to very small,
>high value, cargos.

I thought of it more as a blockade runner. A few modifications and it'd be just what the CFMF was looking for.

Matrix Dragon

It is a good blockade runner- if you rely solely on speed- but it wouldn't be terrible even on legitimate runs.

Consider: the YT-1300's rated cargo weight limit is 100 tons. The YT-2000, I think, is rated for 50 tons of cargo. Tractor-trailer trucks in the US, however, have to have a special permit to operate over 40 tons -gross weight-. Small ore haulers and giant container transports operate side by side on our world's waterways; I see no reason why a solid niche for 'smaller' freighters cannot exist, and be profitable, in legal shipping- at least in UF pre-2400.

It has been said, in various quasi-canon SW items, that small freighters are going the way of the dodo because large bulk freighters and cargo container transports can carry multiples of the freight with the same crew. However, there is a drawback to this; it's never economical to send a bulk container anywhere half-full. Moreover the bigger the freighter, the smaller its crew, and the less powerful its thrust-mass ratio is, the slower it's going to be. Bulk freighters are no good for time-sensitive cargo, for low-population worlds, or for the conveyance of smaller cargo lots.

The monkey wrench in this, of course, is metaspace. A metaspace gate network makes even the biggest bulk freighter competitive with a tiny little independent hauler on a speed issue. With distances effectively shortened, raw speed advantage is lessened, and the small, swift freighters are marginalized to runs not covered by the jump gate network. In short, the new wonder drive has the potential to do what corporate conglomerates, war, warp drive, and age couldn't- put the light freighter out to pasture for good.

When that day comes, you're going to see a sharp upswing in the smuggling industry.

Redneck (I need to go to bed, I'm rambling)

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope

While the YT-2000 is certainly a good ship in most aspects ,
like speed , maneuverability , firepower and such (the
small cargo space we'll just let hang) it has one significant
drawback ... it looks like a damned flying _brick_ !

It has nothing of the grace of the YT-1300 , mostly because
of the former ship's uniqueness of design . The centralized
cockpit , while no doubt practical and all , doesn't
do a thing for it's looks , plus the mandibles obscure some
of the periferal vision capabilities of the pilot .
Like the YT-2400 it is also _much_ too small to be of much
practical use , hence having less space to build neato-toys
into .
(heh , you couldn't set up a Reflex harmonics between the
mandibles either, mostly because they're too small and the
cockpit is between them - whoosh , instant pilot chilli)
I think modded YT-1300 can outdo a modded YT-2000 most of the time ,
because the former's pilot could just put in more stuff !
Also , I have a feeling that the YT-2000's compact frame makes
it harder to install mods .

If you want something with a centralized cockpit , mod the
YT-1300 . It might be cheaper than to buy the 2000 .

Okay , I'll stop rambling now .

-Griever
"No! I am not Prince Hamlet, nor was meant to be; Am an attendant lord, one that will do To swell a progress, start a scene or two, Advise the prince; no doubt, an easy tool, Deferential, glad to be of use, Politic, cautious, and meticulous; Full of high sentence, but a bit obtuse; At times, indeed, almost ridiculous-- Almost, at times, the Fool."

Um... not to burst your bubble here, Chief, but this is hardly a limitation to be dogging the YT-2K for in comparison to the 1300. I would imagine that the pilot's peripheral vision is significantly impaired in one direction, in the 1300, by the fact that the entire ship is in the way. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Ah, but it does have black ops. How does that work? I know in the case of the Quagmire Project, the op in question was put into place by Gryphon directly. In Rites of Passage, the op was again put together by the WDF high command. Has any of this changed in the new non-Megazone, non-Gryphon WDF?

t.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

Trigger Argee
Manon, Maccadon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

That's more infiltration and spying. To me, anyway, BlackOps is a cross between spying and wetworks, with the intention of either. Ben's Buma double, a lot of the stuff MegaZone (please tell me I got that "z" in its proper state of capitilia) did during exile, and PsiCorps operations are what I was thinking of when I asked about BlackOps -- Dirty Stuff That Has To Be Done No Matter What. The WDF (and IPO) are more than likely above that kind of thing. However, that's just the askers opinion.

Static-Pulse
- the most impulsive post alive
DarkBeast.com

>That's more infiltration and spying. To me, anyway, BlackOps is a
>cross between spying and wetworks, with the intention of either.
>Ben's Buma double, a lot of the stuff MegaZone (please tell me I got
>that "z" in its proper state of capitilia) did during exile, and
>PsiCorps operations are what I was thinking of when I asked about
>BlackOps -- Dirty Stuff That Has To Be Done No Matter What. The WDF
>(and IPO) are more than likely above that kind of thing. However,
>that's just the askers opinion.

Ah, I think it's a definition thing then. My definition is a little more loose than yours...that and the management said I'm wrong...

t.
I love ellipses
editted for spelling...again...
Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

Trigger Argee
Manon, Maccadon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

No it doesn't.

:)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

So, then how do you define black ops? I thought it was "we don't tell you that this happened, it never happened, and we have nothing to do with it". Or is it as my esteemed colleague above suggests: Consortium style clean-ups?

danke,
t.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

Trigger Argee
Manon, Maccadon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

You're... really not following me, are you.

The WDF doesn't have black agencies and doesn't conduct black ops.

And neither does the United States government.

Get it?

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

*grin*
Of course the WDF doesn't conduct black ops.
The Silent Service, after all, isn't much more than an honor guard and has nothing at all to do with that kind of thing. Those cloak-capable Predators they fly aren't any more than window dressing, either...the average citizen would have to wonder why they bothered installing a cloaking device on such an aboveboard craft anyway. =P
--"I invoke the rites of fiery Muspelheim, and give thy soul up to the inferno's embrace..."

Cloaking ships are useful for far more than governmental skulduggery; they can also serve as patrol ships, conduct surveillance, act as discreet escorts... all sorts of useful things which, while perhaps not aboveboard, don't fall under the category of black operations as far as I'm concerned. When I think black operations, I think assassinations, first-strike preparations, attempting to develop Zeiram into a weapons system (WTF was Tedan Tippedai thinking?!) - not electronic intelligence and whatnot.

To use a modern naval analogy, using a submarine to land a commando team secretly in a foreign nation and never telling anyone is a black op. Torpedoing enemy shipping in a war is not.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

'Profit profit- moneymoneymoney- profit- OH FUCK AAAAGHGH-...'

Or something along those lines.

Fact o' life, man. Corporations is stupid by nature.

Blessed be.
Nathan Baxter
(Just how do you get one of those funky .sig things here, anyhow?)

Probably the same thing the corp from the Aliens were thinking. Or not thinking.

>To use a modern naval analogy, using a submarine to land a commando
>team secretly in a foreign nation and never telling anyone is a black
>op. Torpedoing enemy shipping in a war is not.

That sounds about right.

And the WDF never engages in black ops.

Nope. No way.

Patrick Chester
"...could you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

>>The Silent Service, after all, isn't much more than an honor guard and
>>has nothing at all to do with that kind of thing. Those cloak-capable
>>Predators they fly aren't any more than window dressing, either...the
>>average citizen would have to wonder why they bothered installing a
>>cloaking device on such an aboveboard craft anyway. =P
>
>Cloaking ships are useful for far more than governmental skulduggery;
>they can also serve as patrol ships, conduct surveillance, act as
>discreet escorts... all sorts of useful things which, while perhaps
>not aboveboard, don't fall under the category of black operations as
>far as I'm concerned. When I think black operations, I think
>assassinations, first-strike preparations, attempting to develop
>Zeiram into a weapons system (WTF was Tedan Tippedai
>thinking?!) - not electronic intelligence and whatnot.
>
>To use a modern naval analogy, using a submarine to land a commando
>team secretly in a foreign nation and never telling anyone is a black
>op. Torpedoing enemy shipping in a war is not.

Oh, agreed, agreed. I'm not saying the Silent Service -only- does that (if it did, why the hell would they even be listed anywhere?) or that Predator-class cloakscouts are only useful for undeclared insertions in foreign nations. I'm just saying that they do that in addition to their aboveboard jobs. Your definition of black ops and my own seem to mesh pretty well. =)

As for Tedan Tippedai...well, sometimes corporate eyeballs get blinded by the huge dollar signs for irises they get every now and then. That certainly happens RL, and, hell, being a huge Shadowrun fan myself, the whole game is based on corporations with greed overcoming common sense. I have to say that that whole anime tickled me pretty good, though. Between the stupid corporation, the unknowable and nearly unconquerable being, and Iria, Gren, and the Hunter's Guild in general, it all really reminded me of Shadowrun.

(Hunter's Guild...Iria's armor...Frames...that's damned weird. What if a group of Ragol hunters got sick and tired of using their skills to tame a planet and wandered off to become bounty hunters on some planet somewhere with truly odd architecture? That might actually -work-...)

--"I invoke the rites of fiery Muspelheim, and give thy soul up to the inferno's embrace..."

Maybe, but there's already a Mycean character in recent bits of UF - I just haven't mentioned that he is one (though there's one clue if you look very, very carefully). It's more likely that Myce is another Corellian colony - same root culture, similar development. Myce is obviously a lot older, though - its cultural divergence and tech base are indicators of a very well-established world, which Ragol is not.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

You mean another another hunter, like Janice?

Static-Pulse
- the most impulsive post alive
DarkBeast.com

Not a hunter, at least not anymore. (Mycean Hunters and Ragolian Hunters aren't the same thing, anyway. Mycean Hunters hunt criminals. Ragolian Hunters tend to hunt man-eating animals. Not quite the same thing.)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Miss Montaigne?

>>You mean another another hunter, like Janice?
>
>Not a hunter, at least not anymore. (Mycean Hunters and Ragolian
>Hunters aren't the same thing, anyway. Mycean Hunters hunt criminals.
> Ragolian Hunters tend to hunt man-eating animals. Not quite the same
>thing.)

Myce, if it helps, is the planet Iria's from.

Do we get to meet her, BTW?

Blessed be.
Nathan Baxter

Claudia would be a bit insulted to know that you called her a "he". :)

>Do we get to meet [Iria], BTW?

Probably not in the Symphony, but you never know. She's one of my favorite anime characters; I'm really rather surprised that I haven't worked her into something yet.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Whups! I'd missed the gender specification.

>>Do we get to meet [Iria], BTW?
>
>Probably not in the Symphony, but you never know. She's one of
>my favorite anime characters; I'm really rather surprised that I
>haven't worked her into something yet.

Don't worry. I'm sure that someday, she'll plop down on your couch and say, "Okay. This is where I fit in."

I can't wait.

Blessed be.
Nathan Baxter
(Wondering how Iria would fit into Hopelessly Lost.)

"Yes, he replied dryly, "animals don't use printers."

Static-Pulse
Sorry, that just seemed appropriate for my main distinction between the two.
- the most impulsive post alive
DarkBeast.com

except in cases like Zeiram :)

This is just a shot in the dark, but is it Dimitrios?

Zack Cohen
who's not trying to start more rampant specualtion

Heavens, no. Dimitrios Arbuthnot is an Earthman through and through.

One of your number has succeeded in identifying him and garnered the five points for observancy, but he chose to make his nomination in a private message rather than out here, so I suppose I'll have to let the rest of you keep guessing for now.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>One of your number has succeeded in identifying him and garnered the
>five points for observancy, but he chose to make his nomination in a
>private message rather than out here, so I suppose I'll have to let
>the rest of you keep guessing for now.
>
>--G.

A-ight, class, I guess I'd better let y'all off the hook. It's Herr Professor Aaron "The Robophobic Prick" Harris. And this was the snippet (from Duelists of the Rose) that pointed that out:

       Harris sputtered for a moment longer, then drew together his
    shattered dignity and rose to his feet.
       "I refuse to participate in this farce any longer. If you
    choose to approve the charter this bunch of miscreants put in front of
    you, on -your- head be it!  I'll have nothing to do with it."
       So saying, the tall, lean professor whirled and stalked away,
    his hair-beads rattling with his annoyed, jerky gait.

The hair-beads gave it away.

SliderDF (NYAR!)
(edited to include formatting)

*dons shades*

Look here.
<FWASH>
There are no black ops in the WDF. It was swamp gas.

Patrick Chester
"...could you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

<grin> I think that particular stunt only works in NXE...

t.

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

Trigger Argee
Manon, Maccadon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

Oh. Right.
*wave hand*
There are no black ops in the WDF... and these aren't the droids you are looking for.

Patrick Chester
"...could you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

To steal a line from Bob's story, "This is not the metahuman you're looking for." :)

-Z

---
We are Dyslexic of Borg. Your ass will be laminated.

-Z