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Subject: "Surprise-Class" Archived thread - Read only
 
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Conferences Symphony of the Sword / The Order of the Rose Topic #254
Reading Topic #254
McFortner
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May-10-09, 11:05 PM (EST)
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"Surprise-Class"
 
   LAST EDITED ON May-11-09 AT 00:49 AM (EDT)
 
OK, Gryph, I think I have a rough model of the Surprise-Class. From your description I got the idea it would be like a 24th Century version of FASA's Loknar-Class. So here she is:

The full size can be found here: http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2489172680099072508KZbrCg Just click on the image and tell it full screen.

Sorry the drawing is rough, but the only line drawing of the Sovereign-Class I could find was rough. Now for some of the real artists here to make a better looking drawing....

Michael

(edited for my poor spelling....)



Michael C. Fortner
RCW #2n 1

"I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time."
-- Mark Twain



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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Surprise-Class Gryphonadmin May-10-09 1
     RE: Surprise-Class McFortner May-10-09 2
  Surprise-Class McFortner May-11-09 3
  RE: Surprise-Class McFortner May-11-09 4
     RE: Surprise-Class Star Ranger4 May-11-09 5
     RE: Surprise-Class WengFook May-11-09 6
         RE: Surprise-Class Prince Charon May-11-09 7
         RE: Surprise-Class BeardedFerret May-11-09 8
         RE: Surprise-Class Gryphonadmin May-11-09 9
             RE: Surprise-Class Vehrec May-11-09 10
                 RE: Surprise-Class Gryphonadmin May-11-09 16
             RE: Surprise-Class McFortner May-11-09 11
             RE: Surprise-Class McFortner May-11-09 12
                 RE: Surprise-Class Wedge May-11-09 13
                     RE: Surprise-Class Zox May-11-09 14
                     RE: Surprise-Class Gryphonadmin May-11-09 15
                         RE: Surprise-Class StClair May-12-09 17
                         RE: Surprise-Class jadmire May-12-09 18
                         RE: Surprise-Class The Traitor May-12-09 19
                         RE: Surprise-Class BeardedFerret May-12-09 20
                             RE: Surprise-Class WengFook May-12-09 21
                 RE: Surprise-Class CdrMike May-12-09 23
         RE: Surprise-Class McFortner May-12-09 22
  RE: Surprise-Class McFortner May-17-09 24
     RE: Surprise-Class Gryphonadmin May-17-09 25
         RE: Surprise-Class McFortner May-18-09 26
             RE: Surprise-Class Gryphonadmin May-18-09 27
  RE: Surprise-Class McFortner Oct-21-09 28
     RE: Surprise-Class Gryphonadmin Oct-21-09 29
         RE: Surprise-Class McFortner Oct-21-09 30

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Gryphonadmin
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May-10-09, 11:48 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #0
 
   I had pictured it as a closer analog to the old Reliant, with the warp engines below the saucer, but that is otherwise very close! I'd be interested in seeing it the other way round, if it wouldn't be too much of a hassle; maybe when they're next to each other, it'll turn out that the engines-on-top version looks better.

(Two Rs, though. Not a big deal, unless someone goes to do hull graphics, but still. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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McFortner
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May-10-09, 11:58 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #1
 
   Heh, sorry bout that. I can't spell worth a flip and I must have not paid attention to my spell checker.... :)

Give me a few and I'll work on the other version.

Michael



Michael C. Fortner
RCW #2n+1

"I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time."
-- Mark Twain



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McFortner
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May-11-09, 00:41 AM (EST)
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3. "Surprise-Class"
In response to message #0
 
   Ok, here is Reliant based Surprise-Class (spelled it right this time!):

Full size view can be found at http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2930999680099072508AWLijY

Michael



Michael C. Fortner
RCW #2n+1

"I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time."
-- Mark Twain



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McFortner
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May-11-09, 00:43 AM (EST)
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4. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON May-11-09 AT 00:51 AM (EDT)
 
The comparison between the two designs:

(Full size at http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2211529310099072508dsxaNT)

I figure that whichever you don't use could be the destroyer version to the Surprise-Class Frigate.

Opinions?

Michael



Michael C. Fortner
RCW #2n+1

"I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time."
-- Mark Twain



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Star Ranger4
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May-11-09, 01:45 AM (EST)
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5. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #4
 
   I know I dont really get a vote myself, but I personally prefer the looks of the high naecel version G.


Of COURSE you wernt expecting it!
No One expects the FANNISH INQUISITION!
RCW# 86


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WengFook
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May-11-09, 04:09 AM (EST)
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6. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #4
 
  
I dunno but it seems like the warp nacelles are canted a little too far down compared to the high-nacelle version?

_____________________________________________
"Walls are meant to be broken." - makes sense both figuratively and literally.


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Prince Charon
Member since Jan-11-09
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May-11-09, 07:11 AM (EST)
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7. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #6
 
   If it matters, I agree with you.

“They planned their campaigns just as you might make a splendid piece of harness. It looks very well; and answers very well; until it gets broken; and then you are done for. Now I made my campaigns of ropes. If anything went wrong, I tied a knot; and went on.”
-- Arthur Wellesley, First Duke of Wellington


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BeardedFerret
Member since Apr-21-08
514 posts
May-11-09, 08:38 AM (EST)
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8. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #6
 
   Yeah, I agree. I think it's because the lower half of the saucer curves more.

Sexy ship, though. She could vent my warp core any day of the week, if you know what I mean.


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Gryphonadmin
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May-11-09, 12:44 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #6
 
   >I dunno but it seems like the warp nacelles are canted a little too
>far down compared to the high-nacelle version?

Mm, this could be. They look all right in profile, but from directly in front the pylons look too long. (The nacelles are on upside-down, too, which probably doesn't help. :)

One thing to keep in mind when weighing these up is that Surprise is rather smaller than Challenger (which is on the humongous side as this style of starship goes); her construction isn't simply a Sovereign dish and warp engines with the secondary hull omitted, the external arrangement is also scaled down by about 30 percent. (I say "external arrangement" because, well, obviously inside the ceilings aren't all 30 percent lower, etc. :) It's pretty much impossible to see without a scale reference, so for purposes of actually making the artwork it doesn't matter, but it should be borne in mind when looking at them.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Vehrec
Member since Feb-21-09
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May-11-09, 05:43 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #9
 
   >One thing to keep in mind when weighing these up is that
>Surprise is rather smaller than Challenger (which is on
>the humongous side as this style of starship goes); her construction
>isn't simply a Sovereign dish and warp engines with the
>secondary hull omitted, the external arrangement is also scaled down
>by about 30 percent. (I say "external arrangement" because, well,
>obviously inside the ceilings aren't all 30 percent lower, etc. :)
>It's pretty much impossible to see without a scale reference, so for
>purposes of actually making the artwork it doesn't matter, but it
>should be borne in mind when looking at them.
>
>--G.
>-><-
>Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
>Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
>Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

30% scaled down? Is that by mass or by length? I do not want to think about all the problems that caused for the designer of the thing, given what I know about warship design. Probably involved a divorce, the loss of a good two inches of hairline and the gain of about 10-15 kilos if it was a male. Being put in charge of a major project is apparently a major source of stress, if my sources can be believed.

In all seriousness, even if the nacelles are shared the hull would have to be a totally new design. If the nacelles are proportionally scaled down, then you have to shell out more money for a new design and fabrication equipment to make the smaller design, and that doesn't save you any money because the hull still needs to be redesigned to fit the reactor and to resist different stresses than the full-sized design would experience. It might not be quite as big a job as the sister design, but it wouldn't be easy either.

“Navigare Necesse Est”-'Get me out of here!'

Group Captain Konstantin Vehrec


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Gryphonadmin
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May-11-09, 11:13 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #10
 
   >In all seriousness, even if the nacelles are shared the hull would
>have to be a totally new design.

Well... yes, but that's what it is. The "it's made of Sovereign parts" thing is just a note to the prop department, as it were - it has no bearing on the in-story realities of the ship's construction, apart from the fact that Sovereign and Surprise share an aesthetic design language, if you will.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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McFortner
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May-11-09, 05:52 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #9
 
   Heh, what can I say, I'm a hack when it comes to design and drawing. I just bash around in GIMP. My biggest problem was that with the engines "right side up" I could not figure a way to attach them to the pylons and look right. And I thought the pylons might be too long on the bottom, that's why I went with my first idea and had them above the saucer. Of course, I'm no Phil or Jeremy or Chad, so my art bites. But at least this should give somebody better at it a beginning for a good drawing....

Michael



Michael C. Fortner
RCW #2n+1

"I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time."
-- Mark Twain



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McFortner
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May-11-09, 06:00 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #9
 
   >One thing to keep in mind when weighing these up is that
>Surprise is rather smaller than Challenger (which is on
>the humongous side as this style of starship goes); her construction
>isn't simply a Sovereign dish and warp engines with the
>secondary hull omitted, the external arrangement is also scaled down
>by about 30 percent.

Like this?

Michael



Michael C. Fortner
RCW #2n+1

"I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time."
-- Mark Twain



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Wedge
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May-11-09, 06:12 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #12
 
   Aww, it's cute!

Does it matter all that much that the nacelles are flipped, Gryph? I mean, the'd function just the same, right? I'm assuming that mounting to the fiddly glowwy bits that run along the 'top' would be kind of a pain.



Chad Collier
Smirking Kilrathi
The Captain of the Gravy Train


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Zox
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May-11-09, 09:42 PM (EST)
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14. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #13
 
   >Does it matter all that much that the nacelles are flipped, Gryph? I
>mean, the'd function just the same, right? I'm assuming that mounting
>to the fiddly glowwy bits that run along the 'top' would be kind of a
>pain.

Well, I'd assume the nacelles wouldn't be identical--especially since they're a different size. Maybe something a bit different but in the same design "family":

---
Rob Madson, a.k.a. Zox
http://lordzox.com/
It is said a Shaolin chef can wok through walls...


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Gryphonadmin
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May-11-09, 11:04 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #13
 
   >Does it matter all that much that the nacelles are flipped, Gryph?

No, I suppose it doesn't, really; doubly so since, the more I look at them, the more inclined I feel to go with the version with the engines on top.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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StClair
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May-12-09, 00:34 AM (EST)
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17. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #15
 
   Aw, I liked the "inverted and tucked-in" version.


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jadmire
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May-12-09, 00:43 AM (EST)
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18. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #15
 
   I prefer that version, too. The side profile gives it a haunting resemblance, at least from my own POV, to a classic Romulan Warbird.

-Joe-


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The Traitor
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May-12-09, 03:13 AM (EST)
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19. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #15
 
   I'm with the rest of the peasants on this one, my liege Gryphon. The one with the lower nacelles just makes me wanna give it a cuddle. Which is probably a bit odd considering it's an interstellar warship weighing in at Gods-know-how-many tons, but there you are. Jane's Fighting Ships'd make a plushie version of the Surprise-class and by Christ would it sell...

---
"She's old, she's lame, she's
barren too, // "She's not
worth feed or hay, // "But
I'll give her this," - he blew
smoke at me - // "She was
something in her day." --
Garnet Rogers, Small
Victory

FiMFiction.net: we might
accept blatant porn involving
the cast of My Little Pony but
as God is my witness we have
standards.


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BeardedFerret
Member since Apr-21-08
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May-12-09, 05:11 AM (EST)
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20. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #15
 
   He used to be indecisive; now he's just not sure.


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WengFook
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May-12-09, 05:38 AM (EST)
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21. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #20
 
  
I'm probably being mean but the longer I look at the profile of the high-nacelle version the more I think it resembles a hood ornament :D although now that I think about it having a starship model as a hood ornament would be pretty damn awesome (needless to say it would be stolen within the first two hours of buying said ornament.) :D

The profile of the nacelle-down version however reminds me of the runabouts used in the shows, just scaled up to full starship size and aesthetics.


_____________________________________________
"Walls are meant to be broken." - makes sense both figuratively and literally.


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CdrMike
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May-12-09, 05:37 PM (EST)
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23. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #12
 
   When you post'em together like that, the one with the nacelles on top looks like you shrunk the Challenger in the wash.

"It says on the tag 'Dry Clean Only'!"

--------------------------
CdrMike, Overwatch Reject

"You know, the world could always use more heroes." - Tracer, Overwatch


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McFortner
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May-12-09, 09:26 AM (EST)
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22. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #6
 
   LAST EDITED ON May-12-09 AT 09:42 AM (EDT)
 
>
>I dunno but it seems like the warp nacelles are canted a little too
>far down compared to the high-nacelle version?

I think on the side view they are a little too far down, but compared to the proportions of the Miranda, they are pretty close to the same. A couple of quick comparisons to show you what I mean. Of course, the Surprise is much bigger than a Miranda....

I didn't want to go with the straight down struts because it didn't look as good IMHO.

Oh, and here is the first version compared with the Loknar.

Not bad considering I didn't really refer to the TMP ships until AFTER I had done the Surprise versions. I did them by eye and adjusted to what looked "right" to me first.

Michael



Michael C. Fortner
RCW #2n+1

"I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time."
-- Mark Twain



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McFortner
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May-17-09, 08:31 PM (EST)
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24. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #0
 
   So, Gryph, any decision on which one you prefer yet? Or are you waiting for someone with more talent than I have to make a better rendition of the two designs? ;)

Michael



Michael C. Fortner
RCW #2n+1

"I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time."
-- Mark Twain



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Gryphonadmin
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May-17-09, 09:28 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #24
 
   >So, Gryph, any decision on which one you prefer yet?

Didn't I say like a week ago? Hmm. No, I guess I didn't, I just said I was leaning that way. My mistake, I could've sworn I followed that up.

Anyway, yeah, I like the one with the engines on top better. I had a mental picture that was more Reliant-like, but the marked top-and-bottom asymmetry of the Sovereign-style main hull makes it not really work in practice.

Also, upon further review, I think I specified too drastic a scaling-down; at that size she's not that much bigger than a Defiant, and she's supposed to be a frigate to the Sovereign's line-of-battle ship, as it were. I think maybe 75% would be more like it.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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McFortner
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May-18-09, 08:25 AM (EST)
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26. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #25
 
   LAST EDITED ON May-18-09 AT 08:50 AM (EDT)
 
>Also, upon further review, I think I specified too drastic a
>scaling-down; at that size she's not that much bigger than a
>Defiant, and she's supposed to be a frigate to the
>Sovereign's line-of-battle ship, as it were. I think maybe 75%
>would be more like it.

Gryph, using figures I found at http://www.ditl.org and I am thinking 70% may be about right. Look at this comparison image I did up:

With the Sovereign Class at 680 meters and a Defiant Class at 170.68 meters, the Surprise Class would come out to be around 380 meters. That would make it longer than a refit Constitution Class at 305 meters. At 75% saucer scale, it would be around 407 meters.

What do you think?



Michael C. Fortner
RCW #2n+1

"I smoke in moderation. Only one cigar at a time."
-- Mark Twain



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Gryphonadmin
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May-18-09, 10:59 AM (EST)
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27. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #26
 
   >With the Sovereign Class at 680 meters and a Defiant Class at 170.68
>meters, the Surprise Class would come out to be around 380 meters.
>That would make it longer than a refit Constitution Class at 305
>meters. At 75% saucer scale, it would be around 407 meters.
>
>What do you think?

Yeah, that works. I'm not too fussed about the numbers, but it looks right in the picture. Go with it!

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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McFortner
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Oct-21-09, 06:19 PM (EST)
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28. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #0
 
   Ok, I was looking at Starship Modeler and saw this submission. I think this is what you originally had in mind for the Surprise Class.

Check out the listing at http://www.starshipmodeler.us/gallery14/js_101409_rel.htm

Michael C. Fortner
"Rule 37: There is no such thing as "overkill".
There is only "open fire" and "I need to reload".


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Gryphonadmin
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Oct-21-09, 06:56 PM (EST)
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29. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #28
 
   Yep, that is indeed pretty much bang on what my original concept was. And nicely executed, too!

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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McFortner
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Oct-21-09, 07:10 PM (EST)
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30. "RE: Surprise-Class"
In response to message #29
 
   And we have a few photos of the Surprise class now. Wish I was that talented with models. I couldn't even get them to blow up right.

Michael

Michael C. Fortner
"Rule 37: There is no such thing as "overkill".
There is only "open fire" and "I need to reload".


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