little things I've read still tick me off but not near as much since the major points are explained.

I'm not sure I'm parsing what you're saying quite right. You are distracted by the use of borrowed characters in a crossover piece of fan fiction? You would prefer random classmates beyond the 4 or 5 total from the Evangelion source material were created completely new?

I mean, I could understand how it would be a distraction if they showed up acting all sailormoony, but as they are mundane schoolgirls, I don't understand where you're coming from.

>
>little things I've read still tick me off but not near as much since
>the major points are explained.

This is some awfully strong language for something you're not saying you don't like.

person 1: "This pie tastes like dirt"
person 2: "You don't like it?"
person 1: "I didn't say that!"

Which is fine, I don't feel you have to like it, or pie for that matter -- although pie is quite tasty I must say -- just bear in mind if you're saying something ticks you off or is insufferable, coming back and saying that you aren't condemning it doesn't go very far.

-------------------------------------
Chris can't handle chemicals

As for sailormoon's characters I thought their cameo was sort of pointless and kinda annoying because of a combination of the English name usage and the fact that they served as basic name drop fan service.

	Chad Collier Smirking Kilrathi The Captain of the Gravy Train

>I think that's kind of the point. Later episodes of NGE and EOE were,
>let's face it, a bit of a nihlistic mindfuck. Gendo started as a cool
>character, as did several of the others, but it all kind of got thrown
>out the window in the closing chapters. I think it's written a few
>times in this forum that NXE is Gryphon's attempt to write the story
>without the ending sucking horribly.
>
>I actually found myself liking NXE better than the original because of
>that. NXE is a series with hope, which is something fundamentally
>lacking in the original. Gendo is still a pretty tragic character, and
>still a bastard, but as the series progresses he gets chances to
>redeem himself.

Gendo's character is an inversion of Shinji's and both of them can be redeemed, built up etc without something as cheesy as lol demons did it.

the exact plot point i was referencing was the bit about humans being the eighteenth angel and so on which had no effect on the battle or third impact so the ending could have changed without that fact poofing up in smoke.

>>D.J. has Fox for a dad Lara for a mom and gets away with stuff that
>>actually cause canon characters to be out of character.
>
>First of all, 'mum', not 'mom'. And again, that's the point. Some of
>those characters deserved to get pushed out of character. In
>particular, Shinji being rescued from being a useless sack of shit
>made me very happy.

mom, as in mother. No character deserves to be out of character, just because a character doesn't have great reception with the fans does not entitle anyone to change him or her; sometimes the point is to dislike the character.

>>I can't honestly respect the character because of this, he acts like
>>he's kamina or heroic spirit Emiya and I'm suppose to accept it
>>because he's been put in the main character's seat.
>
>I'm pretty sure he just acts like DJ.

I was drawing a comparison between his actions and those of characters like or in similar circumstances to his.

I don't expect you to agree given your above comments.

I never said i don't like NXE. I Said I don't like D.J. given that it's a permutation of the evaverse we're dealing with. If he were in TTGL, Gundam or Fate stay night I'd be fine with everything about D.J. save the Fox and Lara parents bit.

As above I said i like the overall idea but it suffers from it's share of problems due to certain inclusions and removals.

Were this a completely original work I'd have likely read and enjoy this all the way though much like i did sailor nothing.

>>I just finished reading chapter three and since i don't know where reviews go here's my current score and opinion. ...score is 6 of 100 (never given 100 mind you)

>>Sadly NXE did not capture my attention in the way i would have liked. I was rather outraged at certain things during the first act. Which admittedly i have not read past nor baring a Miracle do i intend to. In the first act not only do you bring in a character that out does everyone but he never gets his fair share of the abuse. DJ Croft is bloody golden-age Superman compared to the other characters and that's just wrong.

I guess you never did say you don't like it. You just strongly implied it and then copped a ban.

Seriously though, why are you here? You obviously didn't enjoy reading it, and having just gone over your old threads Gryph and Ard seem to have covered your complaints pretty thoroughly the first time round. This just seems like a half-arsed troll.

That's like saying you're cool with Catholicism except for the Pope.

Seriously, what I'm taking from your remarks (the ones I can decipher, anyway) is basically, "I was looking for A and found B. It looks like it's decent-quality B, as B goes, but I don't like B and I want it to be A." And, well, it's not ever gonna be, so I'm not sure why you keep hitting your head against it. Sorry.

I'd try and elaborate further, but my grandparents just arrived for a visit, so, never mind. Carry on.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

That's like saying you're cool with Catholicism except for the Pope.

So what you're saying is that you've never liked a series, book etc despite a character you've despised being a part of the main cast?

Are you saying that DJ IS nxe? He may be a main character but that doesn't mean I have to like him, heck it doesn't mean I can't spend every minute he's "on screen" wishing he'd go away (See Anakin and the CGI clone wars series)

I like Jon, I find him interesting and I also find all the other stuff going on to be interesting too especially the bit about giving Kensuke Jet alone (that kid doesn't get enough attention really)

OoooooooKay...

So what you're really saying is that you can't decide whether you like it or not (because you say that if it was completely original you would have), so instead you're going to come back and piss off the people who wrote it and the people who do like it so that you'll feel justified in not liking it after we collectively tell you to go jump. If you really don't like the names of the characters, download the files, do global search and replace, and read it that way (just make sure you never distribute the changed copies or talk about the changed names to anyone else, as that would be copyright infringement (and I'm not being facetious in this case!)).

And one other thing - while you may have never said that you explicitly don't like it, to say that you would have liked it if it were different, on top of all of your other complaints, certainly implies it. If that's not what you meant to say, then I think you need to go back and re-read what you've written and think about how everyone else is perceiving it. If that's not what you meant, and you really wanted to post some positive commentary and/or constructive criticism (taking into consideration that this is a FINISHED work, and not a work in progress), then I suggest you try again. If not, I suggest you hold your comments to yourself unless you're actively trying to a) piss everyone here off and b) get banned.

In my experience the authors don't mind someone expressing their opinion when there's a purpose in it other than to say that you don't like it because it's not what you wanted them to do. I've disagreed with them on issues before, but it's always been in the context of a discussion on the merits of both sides with the understanding that this is their work, not mine, and if they don't agree with me I need to accept that and let it go. You came here, told us how bad everything was, complained about things not being explained to you that were clearly setups for later parts of the story, and then dropped it because it didn't resolve for you fast enough to keep your attention.

And now you've come back a year and a half later just to do it again? Get some help, man! Seriously. I believe there are DX codes for this kind of behavior, not to mention the famous quote from Albert Einstein. Let it go - you obviously don't like NXE enough to enjoy it, so put it down and walk away. There's literally metric tons of fanfic on the net, I'm sure you can find something that doesn't make you feel like being a Troll. Or maybe you're just a Troll anyway, in which case, please bugger off!

Offsides

[...] in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #π
#include <stdsig.h>

Seriously, you might as well hold an election in Iran.

Oh snap! No I di'ent!

... sorry, I think I channeled Jon Stewart there for a second. :)

(finger to ear) I'm... I'm sorry, I'm being told that's spelled with two L's.

--G.
["Mr. President? John Stewart is here. No, sir, the Green Lantern, not the guy from The Daily Show."]
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

I think thing I like most is that you seem to have ignored what the word overall means. Overall as in the work as a whole.

As far as I can see DJ's not only terribly unrealistic but a bloody super action hero that always wins (again in an overall sense not an absolute one)

and because of this I don't like him, that doesn't mean everything else going on can't be interesting.

It seems that all I'm hearing is you HAVE to like him or else you're WRONG.

If someone can provide me with honest reasons (not just because it was cool) for his many advantages I'd be happy to change my opinion but so far I have yet to see any come to light.

>As far as I can see DJ's not only terribly unrealistic but a bloody
>super action hero that always wins (again in an overall sense not an
>absolute one)
>
Maybe he is, and maybe he isn't. This isn't reality, it's fiction, and thus it doesn't have to be realistic. And don't even try to tell me that any of the rest of the things in NXE (or NGE, or any other anime at that!) are realistic but DJ isn't. If you want realism, I suggest you check out the non-fiction section of your local library.

>and because of this I don't like him, that doesn't mean everything
>else going on can't be interesting.
>
OK, so you don't like that genre - if it really bothers you that much, DON'T READ IT.

>It seems that all I'm hearing is you HAVE to like him or else you're
>WRONG.
>
No, I don't think anybody's said that. What I have heard is you come in saying "I didn't really like it before, but now that I've found out some more stuff that I didn't understand I read it again and guess what? I STILL don't like it and nothing you can say will convince me that these things don't suck!" You say that just because you don't like DJ, it doesn't mean that other interesting stuff is going on. That may be so, but you've done NOTHING to convince me that you actually liked any parts of NXE, because all you've done is focus on the parts that you dislike.

When you read something and want to discuss it in a way that doesn't make everyone around you annoyed at the least, especially when you know that they're fans of the work, don't just tell them everything that's wrong with it! The whole point of having a conversation about something is to find common ground that you can all discuss, yet you've never talked about the parts of NXE that you like. You could have come in and said something like, "I came back to NXE after learning some stuff that made it easier to understand, and having read it I really liked X, Y and Z. I'm still not thrilled with DJ and his 'action hero' feel, but maybe I'm missing something. Also, I'm not sure I understand why the Sailor Moon characters were introduced, since they were just (relatively) normal people and not senshi." People might have disagreed with you on things, but they would have also tried to answer your questions as best as possible and appreciated the fact that you were trying to learn more and express your opinions without smacking everyone with a large hammer.

>If someone can provide me with honest reasons (not just because it was
>cool) for his many advantages I'd be happy to change my opinion but so
>far I have yet to see any come to light.

You know what, I don't have to. You've come here and shoved your opinions down our throat and now you challenge us to change your mind? I gotta admit, that's chutzpah. But until you're willing to have a constructive conversation where not everything is wrong and you're willing to talk about what's good and not just what's not, I'm not going to even try. Come back when you learn some manners about not walking into someone else's house and telling them everything that's wrong with it as your opening line. Just be glad that this is an online forum and not reality, or you'd probably have been tossed out on your ass after your first post.

Offsides

[...] in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #π
#include <stdsig.h>

It seems however that the treatment here is no better. If i don't like part of the work I clearly can't like any part or character therein.

I've asked some questions and counter pointed statements with no acknowledgment or answers.

I find the constant attitude I seem to be getting from both sides to be absolutely detestable. I want some answers not snobby crap or other saying it's absolute trash when i ask outside here.

Look DJ is and it seems given the outside view of NXE will always be the greatest issue with readers.

If there is no other reason for DJ then cause it was cool then fine give him a background and skill list big enough to block out the sun; but otherwise someone tell me why he's like this.

I mean Shouldn't he be realistically scaled? (AGAIN within setting that is a mutaion of Eva)

Promise?

>It seems however that the treatment here is no better. If i don't like
>part of the work I clearly can't like any part or character therein.

That's not what any of us have said.

>
>I've asked some questions and counter pointed statements with no
>acknowledgment or answers.

No, you've expressed opinions and then said "and I don't care what you say, this is what I think."

So... where's our motivation to explain things to you, again?

>Look DJ is and it seems given the outside view of NXE will always be
>the greatest issue with readers.

Actually, my greatest issue was with the what-the-fuck head-trippy in-again-out-again-gone-again-shenanigans the authors pulled with DJ. Or his mind. Not sure which. But I digress.

>
>If there is no other reason for DJ then cause it was cool then fine
>give him a background and skill list big enough to block out the sun;
>but otherwise someone tell me why he's like this.

Like -what-? Referring to 'outside sources' without telling us what those outside sources are, or what they said, is pretty piss-poor discussion skills. Nobody can -- or is likely to -- address any points unless you state what they actually are.

All I've gathered so far is that you dislike DJ, possibly because he's 'too cool'. Which, y'know, none of us are going to be able to change your mind about. You've said as much.

I -could- point out that, as these things go, DJ's not exactly overwhelming in his skill set -- which is another area you bring up, vaguely. But I get the impression you don't even HAVE any points. Are you just going with the flow and claiming he's a Marty Stu because that's what a lot of people say?

If not, then -show- us why you feel the way you do. Use your grey matter for something besides filling your skull and -examine- your opinions.

>I mean Shouldn't he be realistically scaled? (AGAIN within setting
>that is a mutaion of Eva)

How ISN'T he? You claim he's not -- show it! Give us examples. There are folks here who'll debate until the cows come home, but you've offered no points for debate. You've offered opinions, without examples of points that you derive those opinions from.

--sofaspud
--

first off DJ. His parents are not only both alive but they are Lara croft and Fox mulder if i remember correctly.

This is widely unbalanced not only given who they are but that DJ has apparently gone with Lara on ruin expeditions since the age of six; in other universe this would fly but not within a permutation of Evangelion.

His overall attitude isn't terrible but I don't like exactly (i don't exactly hate it; it simply doesn't sit well somehow)

He makes friends too easily in the wrong places; case in point Rei (I know AU but still) I mean come on Shinji really earned her "friendship" in the series so the whole "lol reading fun bit seems cheap" (I understand the company idea but still it's Rei and as far as i understood her personality didn't 180)

in regard to DJ getting to drink and use his pistol I find neither to be realistically acceptable turns of events given that DJ is a minor and it's Misato (despite the sadly popular belief Misato isn't in fact a f*** up like most people think) So I found this to be out of character.

I noted above that Gendo's character development could have been done with something other then "lol demons did it"

BF disagreed on this which makes no sense.

the last thing that really bothers me (though it is at least possible) is that Ritsu's mother managed the time to create another computer system.

otherwise I don't find any particular issues with the work (again the numerous references do get a little distracting but that isn't something I'd call bad)

>Ok point taken you guys didn't understand the points I tried to get
>across. Here's every point I've got listed. (prove me wrong if you
>have the evidence)

... this? This right here? -Screams- of 'tude, yo. Clamp down on the attitude and you'll find this a lot friendlier place.

>first off DJ. His parents are not only both alive but they are Lara
>croft and Fox mulder if i remember correctly.
>
>This is widely unbalanced not only given who they are but that DJ has
>apparently gone with Lara on ruin expeditions since the age of six; in
>other universe this would fly but not within a permutation of
>Evangelion.

Please define what you would consider 'balanced'? Given that it's freaking Lara Croft, what would you expect her to do? Leave her boy at home in the care of her butler while she roamed the world?

If it's the age thing that bothers you... you are aware that in the Real World, children that young routinely accompany their parents on research trips? Or, y'know, for that matter, in the circus? I fail to see how expeditions to the Yucatan are inherently more dangerous than traveling with the carnies and playing with the tigers.

I'd also like to know how this doesn't fly within this permutation of Evangelion, when the source material is putting these same children in GIANT WAR MACHINES. How are expeditions with Lara Croft more dangerous than getting your brain scrambled by an angel?

(Re: his father's name -- does it make THAT much difference, really? You could substitute Agent Smith or John Doe for 'Fox Mulder' and have the same effect on the plot. Seems to me you're ascribing more to it than was intended, here.)

>His overall attitude isn't terrible but I don't like exactly (i don't
>exactly hate it; it simply doesn't sit well somehow)

Granted. He's an arrogant 13-year-old snot. My personal opinion on it is that he comes across so overconfident because he's desperately trying to hide how insecure he is, but I might be off base there.

Let it be hereby known that I don't like DJ. My favorite character of the entire series is San. Who you may not know about, since (you've said) you haven't bothered to read the whole thing.

>He makes friends too easily in the wrong places; case in point Rei (I
>know AU but still) I mean come on Shinji really earned her
>"friendship" in the series so the whole "lol reading fun bit seems
>cheap" (I understand the company idea but still it's Rei and as far as
>i understood her personality didn't 180)

Here's where your ignorance of the source material (meaning NXE, not the anime/manga) is coming back to bite you. It's very well documented why her personality changes. You may not -like- the change -- and that's your right -- but it -is- explained why she's a different Rei than what you'd expect if what you want is canon-Rei.

Personally, I like this Rei a helluva lot better than what I know of canon-Rei, but then, it's not terribly hard to like someone with actual personality more than a blank fetish-doll puppet.

>in regard to DJ getting to drink and use his pistol I find neither to
>be realistically acceptable turns of events given that DJ is a minor
>and it's Misato (despite the sadly popular belief Misato isn't in fact
>a f*** up like most people think) So I found this to be out of
>character.

You must've missed the part where he's from England. Where the drinking age is (in law) a lot lower than in the USA, and (in practice) about when you can belly up the bar and slap down a fiver.

As for Misato allowing it... think of it this way: they need him a lot more than he needs them. This is true even in canon source. These children -- sorry, Children -- are the only ones capable of piloting the machines. There aren't many of them. Ergo, if one of them wants something, they get it.

And as for the handgun... look, seriously, you're joking, right? The Boy Scouts teach you how to use firearms at a younger age than DJ is. I learned from my mother, uncle, and grandfather how to treat weapons at the tender age of 6. How is this implausible for DJ, who is in a setting where they're recovering (globally) from a major natural disaster-slash-invasion?

>I noted above that Gendo's character development could have been done
>with something other then "lol demons did it"

But... demons DID do it. That's the whole -point-.

Well, technically, angels had a pretty big hand in it too, but still.

You seem to forget, this isn't Evangelion.

>BF disagreed on this which makes no sense.

I'm not sure what you're referring to, here.

>the last thing that really bothers me (though it is at least possible)
>is that Ritsu's mother managed the time to create another computer
>system.

Why? I'm at a loss to understand why this is hard to believe. Firstly, one of the systems is a refinement of the other. It's not like she threw away all her notes and previous knowledge and said, "Let's start over!" Original research time takes, well, a long time. Subsequent refinements, very much not so much.

Second, we're talking years between the systems here.

And finally, you've got the resources of massive gov't agencies backing you.

I'm not at all understanding the difficulty. Of all the things you could pick on as stretching your sense of belief, to choose THIS... confuses the hell out of me.

>otherwise I don't find any particular issues with the work (again the
>numerous references do get a little distracting but that isn't
>something I'd call bad)

Personally I find the blending of such disparate sources into one cohesive whole, and telling a rockin' good story in the bargain, to be an incredible display of skill, talent, and imagination.

So, no, I wouldn't call it 'bad' either.

--sofaspud
--

Point of order: No they're not.

(Wow. Imagine if he'd read what he's attempting to critique.)

>Given that it's
>freaking Lara Croft, what would you expect her to do? Leave her boy
>at home in the care of her butler while she roamed the world?

Point of order: She tried that once. It didn't work. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

>>first off DJ. His parents are not only both alive but they are Lara
>>croft and Fox mulder if i remember correctly.
>>
>>This is widely unbalanced not only given who they are but that DJ has
>>apparently gone with Lara on ruin expeditions since the age of six; in
>>other universe this would fly but not within a permutation of
>>Evangelion.
>
>Please define what you would consider 'balanced'? Given that it's
>freaking Lara Croft, what would you expect her to do? Leave her boy
>at home in the care of her butler while she roamed the world?

Balance in this case is taking a look at the other children and to a lesser extent the other characters. Actually that's exactly what I would expect of Lara given that DJ is about 6. later in this life sure i could see it happening but at six not so much.

>If it's the age thing that bothers you... you are aware that in the
>Real World, children that young routinely accompany their parents on
>research trips? Or, y'know, for that matter, in the circus? I fail
>to see how expeditions to the Yucatan are inherently more dangerous
>than traveling with the carnies and playing with the tigers.

She has the option to keep him out of danger and her "Expeditions" as i'm sure we all know are very different then what one would consider normal.

>I'd also like to know how this doesn't fly within this permutation of
>Evangelion, when the source material is putting these same children in
>GIANT WAR MACHINES. How are expeditions with Lara Croft more
>dangerous than getting your brain scrambled by an angel?

The giant robots are a plot device and while it is no different in terms of danger quotient. His age is the primary factor in why it doesn't fly (I actually just described DJ to a friend as a character for an Eva game and he looked terribly confused, keeping in mind that some people play angels and he even setup the system for it that's quite a feat)

>(Re: his father's name -- does it make THAT much difference, really?
>You could substitute Agent Smith or John Doe for 'Fox Mulder' and have
>the same effect on the plot. Seems to me you're ascribing more to it
>than was intended, here.)

Yes i do suppose it that case I am but it still doesn't sit right being that it's THAT Fox.

>>His overall attitude isn't terrible but I don't like exactly (i don't
>>exactly hate it; it simply doesn't sit well somehow)
>
>Granted. He's an arrogant 13-year-old snot. My personal opinion on
>it is that he comes across so overconfident because he's desperately
>trying to hide how insecure he is, but I might be off base there.
>
>Let it be hereby known that I don't like DJ. My favorite
>character of the entire series is San. Who you may not know about,
>since (you've said) you haven't bothered to read the whole thing.
>
>>He makes friends too easily in the wrong places; case in point Rei (I
>>know AU but still) I mean come on Shinji really earned her
>>"friendship" in the series so the whole "lol reading fun bit seems
>>cheap" (I understand the company idea but still it's Rei and as far as
>>i understood her personality didn't 180)
>
>Here's where your ignorance of the source material (meaning NXE, not
>the anime/manga) is coming back to bite you. It's very well
>documented why her personality changes. You may not -like- the change
>-- and that's your right -- but it -is- explained why she's a
>different Rei than what you'd expect if what you want is canon-Rei.
>
>Personally, I like this Rei a helluva lot better than what I know of
>canon-Rei, but then, it's not terribly hard to like someone with
>actual personality more than a blank fetish-doll puppet.

granted but on a personal note Rei's character for me has always been about the journey so that change isn't something i'm happy with (I hope this makes sense) I have read futher then i did thanks to TV tropes as in my first post.

>>in regard to DJ getting to drink and use his pistol I find neither to
>>be realistically acceptable turns of events given that DJ is a minor
>>and it's Misato (despite the sadly popular belief Misato isn't in fact
>>a f*** up like most people think) So I found this to be out of
>>character.
>
>You must've missed the part where he's from England. Where the
>drinking age is (in law) a lot lower than in the USA, and (in
>practice) about when you can belly up the bar and slap down a fiver.

Aren't they in America though? or am I completely turned around on the geography?

>As for Misato allowing it... think of it this way: they need him a lot
>more than he needs them. This is true even in canon source. These
>children -- sorry, Children -- are the only ones capable of piloting
>the machines. There aren't many of them. Ergo, if one of them wants
>something, they get it.

Ok i can sort of get that but I wouldn't have expected her to be the one to cave.

>And as for the handgun... look, seriously, you're joking, right? The
>Boy Scouts teach you how to use firearms at a younger age than DJ is.
>I learned from my mother, uncle, and grandfather how to treat weapons
>at the tender age of 6. How is this implausible for DJ, who is in a
>setting where they're recovering (globally) from a major natural
>disaster-slash-invasion?

I live in canada so, well no they don't teach that (I realize in other areas in the world do but not here) I do however see that point

>But... demons DID do it. That's the whole -point-.

I know they did but i'm just saying that it feels cheap since he and Shinji are arguable the two character with the most potential for deep character evolution

>>the last thing that really bothers me (though it is at least possible)
>>is that Ritsu's mother managed the time to create another computer
>>system.

>Why? I'm at a loss to understand why this is hard to believe.
>Firstly, one of the systems is a refinement of the other. It's not
>like she threw away all her notes and previous knowledge and said,
>"Let's start over!" Original research time takes, well, a long time.
>Subsequent refinements, very much not so much.

just what the magi are supposed to be (the world's foremost advanced personality infused super computer cluster)

>Second, we're talking years between the systems here.
>
>And finally, you've got the resources of massive gov't agencies
>backing you.
>
>I'm not at all understanding the difficulty. Of all the things you
>could pick on as stretching your sense of belief, to choose THIS...
>confuses the hell out of me.

I'm a setting based tech nerd. flipping the pool (in a technological advancement sense) just bothers me that's all.

It isn't like a game breaker and as i stated above It is possible it's just a little off putting. kinda like walking into a kitchen where everything has been moved left two inches

The point has been made with the same example in another post, but might I direct you towards the late Steve Irwin?

And let's look at the other children (just the ones that appear in both, lest this get more tedious):

Shinji: son of Gendo and Yui -- two of the prime movers and shakers in NERV, in both canon and NXE. Given that NERV effectively overrides any gov't whenever it wants, this makes Gendo a Very Powerful Man indeed. More powerful than Lara, I would argue. In canon, Shinji is a spineless idjut; in NXE, starts off the same and eventually grows into a person worthy of respect, via his actions rather than by an accident of his birth.

Asuka: daughter of a Eva tech (in canon, not sure about NXE), also in both a literal child prodigy. She's demonstrably smarter and more educated than DJ is, in NXE. Plus, she's at the least his equal in combat. She's able to think in multiple languages, fer cryin' out loud (both canon and NXE, again).

Rei: in canon her origin is mysterious, though it's obvious she's a clone; in NXE, Rei-prime is a literal angel, suffering through the consequences of her perceived failure during Second Impact. It's... well, pretty obvious that as far as power levels go (if you can use such a term), Rei is playing with the Big Dogs, compared to the other Children.

How is DJ unbalanced again, exactly?

>
>She has the option to keep him out of danger and her "Expeditions" as
>i'm sure we all know are very different then what one would consider
>normal.

*points at Steve Irwin again, notes that nobody's claiming HIS daughter -- who has her own show doing her father's schtick -- is unbalanced*

>The giant robots are a plot device and while it is no different in
>terms of danger quotient. His age is the primary factor in why it
>doesn't fly (I actually just described DJ to a friend as a character
>for an Eva game and he looked terribly confused, keeping in mind that
>some people play angels and he even setup the system for it that's
>quite a feat)

Yes, well, I'm sure you were completely unbiased and objective in your description, too.

Look, calling the giant robots a plot device doesn't nullify the fact that it was, in story (NXE and canon both), exposing literal children to unimaginable danger. CERTAINLY more danger than accompanying Lara on a relic hunt. Lara is shot at. Angels destroy -cities-.

>Yes i do suppose it that case I am but it still doesn't sit right
>being that it's THAT Fox.

-Why-? If you have a reason, let's hear it!

>granted but on a personal note Rei's character for me has always been
>about the journey so that change isn't something i'm happy with (I
>hope this makes sense) I have read futher then i did thanks to TV
>tropes as in my first post.

But you're saying one of the reasons you don't like DJ or the work he appears in is because he makes friends with Rei too easily.

Except this is not -your- version of Rei.

>>You must've missed the part where he's from England. Where the
>>drinking age is (in law) a lot lower than in the USA, and (in
>>practice) about when you can belly up the bar and slap down a fiver.
>
>Aren't they in America though? or am I completely turned around on the
>geography?

They're in Worcester, which is in the US, yes. As DJ points out on occasion, he's still a British national, and given his status as a Eva pilot, you could make a very strong case for him not being subject to American law.

If that's even necessary. Let's face it, on the grand scheme of things, you're press-ganging a -child- -- one who enjoys certain rights in his own country, mind you -- into a -war- and putting his life in danger every day. In return, he wants to be able to continue to drink his beer, dammit.

And finally, to completely belabor the point, it may well be perfectly legal. I'm not sure about Mass. law, but in several states I've lived in, it's perfectly permissible for children to consume alcoholic beverages in the privacy of their own home, with parent and/or guardian approval. There are laws against -serving- alcohol to children, but that doesn't apply here.

>Ok i can sort of get that but I wouldn't have expected her to be the
>one to cave.

Because she's such a stickler for rules and regulations, you mean.

Oh, wait.

>>But... demons DID do it. That's the whole -point-.
>
>I know they did but i'm just saying that it feels cheap since he and
>Shinji are arguable the two character with the most potential for deep
>character evolution

See, thing is, they both -get- deep character evolution. The last third of the series doesn't even feature DJ as more than an offscreen plot element, for cryin' out loud. He's an instigator, he's not the be-all and end-all of the story.

Gendo does the most brilliant and amazing turnaround I've seen in a long while, and Shinji... holy shit, Shinji becomes a -man-.

If you want deep character development, all you need to do is -read-. And, well, stop expecting it to be canon. It's -not- Evangelion.

I'm not saying you'll -like- some of the characterization, but that's your business, not mine. But they -do- develop.

>I'm a setting based tech nerd. flipping the pool (in a technological
>advancement sense) just bothers me that's all.
>
>It isn't like a game breaker and as i stated above It is possible it's
>just a little off putting. kinda like walking into a kitchen where
>everything has been moved left two inches

**nudges the fridge back to the right** There. All better?

(If it's not that big a deal, why bring it up? If it is, surely you can defend your position.)

--sofaspud
--

I think you need to show your work here; Why don't you think this "flies" in an N*E environment?

There are a lot of people who have two talented parents. This is not necessarily "widely unbalanced"; Carrie Fisher has two famous actors as parents, yet she's not the Ultimate Actress.

As for Lara's version of child care, Evangelion Earth, both versions, has been drastically traumatized by Second Impact. Human civilization has had to adjust to a more "pioneer," edge-of-survival mentality. A parent taking a kid to "work" in a dangerous environment isn't unheard of even in our reality (cf. Steve "Crocodile Hunter" Irwin). And with N*E, we're talking about a world that lets 14-year-olds pilot kaiju-class mecha; that would be unimaginable by our civilization's standards. I don't think this objection can hold any weight at all.

>His overall attitude isn't terrible but I don't like exactly (i don't
>exactly hate it; it simply doesn't sit well somehow)

So you want him to be irresistably likeable along with all his other traits? Didn't you say he was too perfect already? :)

>He makes friends too easily in the wrong places; case in point Rei (I
>know AU but still) I mean come on Shinji really earned her
>"friendship" in the series so the whole "lol reading fun bit seems
>cheap" (I understand the company idea but still it's Rei and as far as
>i understood her personality didn't 180)

Try being treated like a piece of semi-functioning equipment for your whole life, and then meeting someone--anyone--who sees you as a fellow person, no more, no less. A little bit of respect can go a long way. Rei's strength of character is shown by the fact that she didn't immediately become DJ's pet under those circumstances.

>in regard to DJ getting to drink and use his pistol I find neither to
>be realistically acceptable turns of events given that DJ is a minor
>and it's Misato (despite the sadly popular belief Misato isn't in fact
>a f*** up like most people think) So I found this to be out of
>character.

Again, the frontier mentality I mentioned above. For large parts of human history, a 14-year-old would be expected to be married and start having kids--and drinking, and being able to defend himself and his family.

>I noted above that Gendo's character development could have been done
>with something other then "lol demons did it"

I'm not finding the "lol" in this--when you're talking about a war between Heaven and Hell, who do you expect to be running the black ops for the bad guys? :) For all that he thought he was the King, Gendo was a pawn. His character development hasn't even started by the time you stopped reading.

>BF disagreed on this which makes no sense.

I'm not sure what "BF" refers to here, so I'll have to pass on this one.

>the last thing that really bothers me (though it is at least possible)
>is that Ritsu's mother managed the time to create another computer
>system.

Talk to people who do videogame mods. It's the engine that takes all the software development effort. If you've done it right, "re-skinning" (in this case with a different personality) is relatively simple--and in fact, you really should try more than one during testing, to make sure the engine will really work under different conditions. Heck, there was probably a "Gendo" personality configuration somewhere, until Ritsuko wrote over it with a bootleg copy of Bejeweled. :)

>Ok point taken you guys didn't understand the points I tried to get
>across. Here's every point I've got listed. (prove me wrong if you
>have the evidence)
>
>first off DJ. His parents are not only both alive but they are Lara
>croft and Fox mulder if i remember correctly.

You've got the parentage correct, and the forces that be believe both Lara and Fox to be dead at the start of the series as far as that goes. I don't understand the relevance of them being alive or dead though (why is it an issue for you aside from whats below?).

>This is widely unbalanced not only given who they are but that DJ has
>apparently gone with Lara on ruin expeditions since the age of six; in
>other universe this would fly but not within a permutation of
>Evangelion.

I don't understand this statement. What is so special about Evangelion universes that a boy wouldn't be able to be an accomplished tomb raider so to speak?

>His overall attitude isn't terrible but I don't like exactly (i don't
>exactly hate it; it simply doesn't sit well somehow)

No problem there, it doesn't work for you.

>He makes friends too easily in the wrong places; case in point Rei (I
>know AU but still) I mean come on Shinji really earned her
>"friendship" in the series so the whole "lol reading fun bit seems
>cheap" (I understand the company idea but still it's Rei and as far as
>i understood her personality didn't 180)

I felt the story unfolded pretty well here with the gradual introduction of leisure activities drawing her out of what may have been an even more pronounced robot-ness than the source.

>in regard to DJ getting to drink and use his pistol I find neither to
>be realistically acceptable turns of events given that DJ is a minor
>and it's Misato (despite the sadly popular belief Misato isn't in fact
>a f*** up like most people think) So I found this to be out of
>character.

She protested, he presented his case, she evaluated it and accepted it for what it was. I feel this point is sort of a restatement of your previous point that the son of Lara Croft (let alone Fox Mulder) doesn't belong in any Evangelion story.

I know a common complaint for DJ is that he is infallable, and while his faults don't manifest much in season 1, I think this is more of a showcase of how all the characters in the source are so strongly defined by their faults.

>I noted above that Gendo's character development could have been done
>with something other then "lol demons did it"

There is a lot more going on with Gendo. The demons are an integral part of the story. The linchpin of combining NGE, X-Com UFO Defense, and In Nomine. You don't seem to approve of the combination, but that is what this story is.

>the last thing that really bothers me (though it is at least possible)
>is that Ritsu's mother managed the time to create another computer
>system.

As opposed to the Magi, SHODAN is more a modification on an existing computer system. Perhaps some of the ideas putting SHODAN together were used on the Magi...

>otherwise I don't find any particular issues with the work (again the
>numerous references do get a little distracting but that isn't
>something I'd call bad)

I don't know what to tell you on this one. Cross-referencing and seeing where people fit in seems to be the preferred style around here. I enjoy it even though there are many references I don't know or catch.

I originally rejected the premise of DJ and stopped reading. It wasn't what I was looking for at the time. Later, I stumbled across the story again, let it unfold on its own pace and found it quite enjoyable. So much so that I read everything else EPU had released to that point while waiting for the next episode.

So, my advice to you is to either walk away (the story is going to diverge more and more from NGE), or stop looking at it as an NGE story and go along for the ride.

-------------------------------------
Chris can't handle chemicals

"I mean Shouldn't {DJ} be realistically scaled? (AGAIN within setting that is a mutaion of Eva)"

And that's why DJ works in NXE--he's exactly the right scale. You have a story of Man striving against God Himself. What's a realistic scale for the lead character? If you say "Shinji," I'm afraid I can't help you. :)

The Illiad had Achilles--an early-model Terminator with a Greek accent and a bad attitude toward authority. NXE has DJ--a precocious teenager with a famous mom and a bad attitude toward authority. Compare and contrast, as the English professors would say. :)

DJ is, conceptually, the Anti-Shinji.

He is deliberately a complete opposite of everything our hosts found irritating in NGE's lead. And NXE is deliberately a complete opposite of NGE's 'MUAHAHAHAHA FUCK YOU! NIHILISM UBER ALLES! SUFFER! WATCH WHILE I TORTURE THESE KITTENS FOR GREAT SYMBOLISM!!'

It's meant to be a fun ride, not a Meaningful Statement About The Human Condition.

Now, since Shinji did have at least a few good points, it makes sense that DJ would end up with a few bad ones (and at that he did a lot better than Ayn Rand did). IIRC, Gryphon has stated in the past that there were things about DJ's characterization, particularly early on, that he felt he'd missed the mark he'd aimed at on, particularly concerning the fact that DJ was mostly bluffing rather than actually being Just That Cool.

I'll admit that there are a few points in Season 1 where I roll my eyes at him, but frankly, as Bona-Fide Stues go, DJ's about a two on a scale of ten.

Ja, -n

I'd just like to point out that between this, and your subsequent posts, you lied.

I decline; I've been working on outgrowing my habit of trying to justify my decisions (insofar as the creative process even involves decisions) to any and all who come along and demand that they be justified. Besides, a) that was 12 years ago and b) you've come right out and admitted that you only went as far as the end of series 1, which is... what... something like one-fifth of the completed text, since as the series progressed the episodes tended to get longer. The answers to some of your questions are in the part you haven't read; others, I suspect, simply can't be answered.

Mind you, when I said your statement was like declaring an affinity for Catholicism except for the Pope, I wasn't saying that was impossible; my point was that it must be both difficult and annoying. Liking a work of fiction despite an overriding distaste for the protagonist must be hard work, and unrewarding into the bargain, like eating ice cream when you know you're lactose-intolerant. That's not impossible either, people do it all the time, but I don't quite see why they do it to themselves, and I guess the same is true of you.

Or, to put it another way, it's not that you have to like him or you're wrong; it's that one would have thought you'd have to like him at least a little to find any merit in what is, in effect, the story of his life. A person who took a keen dislike to Lucky Jack Aubrey would hardly make more than one effort to read Master and Commander. It's just puzzling, that's all - both in that sense and in that of, "Well, what do you expect me to do about it now?"

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.