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Subject: "Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR"" Archived thread - Read only
 
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thorne
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Jun-13-01, 10:38 PM (EST)
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"Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
 
   Re: "New UF/FI Arc" -- frel, that's an oversized thread. Anyone inspired by points in this post, please please PLEASE spawn an appropriately-named new thread.

Re 1: Utena. I saw the first eight eps of "Revolutionary Girl Utena" at Balticon 35 a few weeks ago. <Homer>Roses... so many roses... so many spinning roses...</Homer> Allusions in SotS:WR imply something *bad* happened at Ohtori Academy (will we ever find out *what*?) -- are the images and lyrics of the opening sequence prophetic? Or does the "trick of the light" in the forbidden forest fall down?

(UF precedent, eg PCHammer's use of "Project A-ko" and "Gunbuster", establishes that borrowed characters' official/source continuities can be adjusted to suit.)

Re 2: Azalynn the Dantrovian. I keep thinking "Azalene XVI(?)" from "Irresponsible Captain Tylor", but she had *red* hair, right? And are Dantrovians a species with precedent in UF? "Ceremonies with joining of the flesh" reminds me of the briefly-used Deltans from the early Trek movie era.

Re 3: Amanda Dessler the Gamilon. IIRC, there are EDF _Yamato_-type ships in UF (the climactic battle of Core:4), but did planet Gamilon blow up or not? If they never bombarded Earth with radioactive meteoroids, why *do* _Yamatos_ exist? So why exactly is the Empress-to-be slumming it with other species at the Worcester Preparatory Institute? Seems awfully *egalitarian*...

Re 4: WPI. So, how many times has the school been rebuilt, according to the same I-assume-suboptimal-plan, since the Wedge took a couple of dorms with it, the Genom Tower popped up, and the whole city got shield-nuked? (Good thing they don't use Holtzmann shields and lasguns...)

Re 5: "Some characters created by Kunihiko Ikuhara and Chiho Saito" etc. *Every* UF fic has this sort of acknowledgment, but the authors never specify the characters or source anime for those of us who want to cross-reference plots, or at least get pictures. Or maybe they don't *want* preconceptions. True, such declarations up front would be spoilers; but they could instead appear in the *end* credits.

Re 6: the shape of UF's future. It's just like *today*, with the occasional alien, spaceship or niftier computer. Earth and every colony world; no cultural changes, no increases in longevity, no popular acceptance of cybernetic implants (it's still unusual and often sub-legal). This might be intentional by the authors (maybe to concentrate on characters), but (as a reader of serious SF) it doesn't ring true to me -- despite comments by characters that humans consider 20cen a highwater mark.


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Gryphonadmin Jun-13-01 1
     RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Berk Jun-14-01 2
         RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Mephronmoderator Jun-14-01 3
             RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Gryphonadmin Jun-14-01 6
                 RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Mephronmoderator Jun-14-01 7
                     RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Gryphonadmin Jun-14-01 8
                         RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Mephronmoderator Jun-14-01 9
                             RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Gryphonadmin Jun-14-01 10
                                 RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Wedge Jun-14-01 12
                     RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" drakensisthered Jun-14-01 11
                         RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Mephronmoderator Jun-14-01 14
                             RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Laudre Jun-14-01 15
                                 RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" drakensisthered Jun-15-01 16
                                 RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Mephronmoderator Jun-15-01 17
         RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" thorne Jun-16-01 20
             RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Gryphonadmin Jun-16-01 22
                 RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Laudre Jun-16-01 23
                     RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Matrix Dragon Jun-20-01 26
                         RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" drakensisthered Jun-21-01 27
                             RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" BobSchroeck Jun-21-01 29
                             RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Khirsah Jul-04-01 36
                     RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" thorne Jun-24-01 30
                         RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Gryphonadmin Jun-24-01 31
                         RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" megazone Jun-24-01 32
                             RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Laudre Jun-24-01 33
                                 RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Wedge Jun-24-01 34
                                     RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Laudre Jun-24-01 35
                 RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" megazone Jun-16-01 24
                     RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Gryphonadmin Jun-16-01 25
     RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Dreamshadow Jun-14-01 4
         RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Gryphonadmin Jun-14-01 5
             RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" trussteam Jun-14-01 13
                 RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Berk Jun-15-01 18
     RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" thorne Jun-15-01 19
         RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Gryphonadmin Jun-16-01 21
         RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR" Redneck Jun-21-01 28

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Gryphonadmin
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19261 posts
Jun-13-01, 11:07 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jun-13-01 AT 11:12 PM (EDT)

>Allusions in SotS:WR imply something *bad* happened at Ohtori Academy
>(will we ever find out *what*?)

No, I figured I'd just leave that unresolved forever and ever. Of course we'll find out what happened!

> -- are the images and lyrics of the
>opening sequence prophetic? Or does the "trick of the light" in the
>forbidden forest fall down?

Can't tell you exactly... some of it is, some of it isn't. Some of it can probably be worked out from context - after all, you don't see Anthy anywhere, do you? - but the details are for telling as the Symphony progresses, not for spelling out all at once. It's more interesting that way.

>Re 2: Azalynn the Dantrovian. I keep thinking "Azalene XVI(?)" from
>"Irresponsible Captain Tylor", but she had *red* hair, right?

Coincidence. I've never seen Tylor. Physically Azalynn rather resembles Kaolla Suu from Love Hina - which I've never seen either, except for a couple of music videos Truss found on the Web - but she's an original character who isn't supposed to be anybody in particular.

>And are
>Dantrovians a species with precedent in UF?

Nope, I made them up for Az. They don't leave their homeworld all that often. (Originally, Azalynn was going to be Salusian, but I decided to make her more exotic.)

>Re 3: Amanda Dessler the Gamilon. IIRC, there are EDF _Yamato_-type
>ships in UF (the climactic battle of Core:4), but did planet Gamilon
>blow up or not?

No, it's still there.

>If they never bombarded Earth with radioactive
>meteoroids, why *do* _Yamatos_ exist?

Because Lord Fahvergnugen likes to design ships that look like ships.

>So why exactly is the
>Empress-to-be slumming it with other species at the Worcester
>Preparatory Institute? Seems awfully *egalitarian*...

Amanda's a bit odd. We'll be learning more about her later.

>Re 4: WPI. So, how many times has the school been rebuilt, according
>to the same I-assume-suboptimal-plan, since the Wedge took a couple of
>dorms with it, the Genom Tower popped up, and the whole city got
>shield-nuked?

Twice.

>Re 5: "Some characters created by Kunihiko Ikuhara and Chiho Saito"
>etc. *Every* UF fic has this sort of acknowledgment, but the authors
>never specify the characters or source anime for those of us who want
>to cross-reference plots, or at least get pictures. Or maybe they
>don't *want* preconceptions. True, such declarations up front would be
>spoilers; but they could instead appear in the *end* credits.

Mm, I suppose. I don't like giving that kind of thing away ahead of time, and the end credits didn't have room.

>
>Re 6: the shape of UF's future. It's just like *today*, with the
>occasional alien, spaceship or niftier computer. Earth and every
>colony world; no cultural changes, no increases in longevity, no
>popular acceptance of cybernetic implants (it's still unusual and
>often sub-legal).

No increases in longevity? John Gill is pitching in the major leagues and batting .339 at the age of fifty-eight. As for cybernetics, they're around, but they aren't made a big deal of. People don't walk around going "ph33r my l33t cyb4rj3x!"

I don't go out of my way to point this stuff out, because I don't want to turn into E.E. Smith, but some of it's there. The rest, well, see below.

>This might be intentional by the authors (maybe to
>concentrate on characters), but (as a reader of serious SF) it doesn't
>ring true to me

UF isn't serious SF. Its world is a future that I would like to live in - and that means it's just like today, with the occasional alien, spaceship or niftier computer. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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Berk
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Jun-14-01, 00:29 AM (EST)
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2. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #1
 
   o/~ Just repeat to yourself, 'It's just a fic, I should really just relax...' o/~

Berk Watkins
Student of Quantum Bogodynamics...


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Mephronmoderator
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Jun-14-01, 04:14 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #2
 
   >o/~ Just repeat to yourself, 'It's just a fic, I should really just
>relax...' o/~

I now have the desire to see Devlin and Amanda pull off the 'Sampo' routine, with Devlin doing the part of Tom Servo.

It just popped into my head.

Kate: "I need to sample that."
Utena: "Sample what?"
Devlin: "Sampo! I think a Sampo is a strapless red evening dress."
Amanda: "Devlin, you degenerate, you think EVERYTHING is a strapless red evening dress."
Devlin: "I just happen to think they're cool, that's all!"

And Ed and Ein doing the tennis-observer thing between them as that goes off.

--
Geoff Depew - Mephron
"Big O! Showtime!"


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Gryphonadmin
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19261 posts
Jun-14-01, 04:40 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #3
 
   >I now have the desire to see Devlin and Amanda pull off the 'Sampo'
>routine, with Devlin doing the part of Tom Servo.

Ah, Meph, your lunacy remains as inspired as ever. :)

--G.
red isn't really Amanda's color, though... :)
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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Mephronmoderator
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Jun-14-01, 05:17 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #6
 
   >>I now have the desire to see Devlin and Amanda pull off the 'Sampo'
>>routine, with Devlin doing the part of Tom Servo.
>
>Ah, Meph, your lunacy remains as inspired as ever. :)
>
>--G.
>red isn't really Amanda's color, though... :)

Yeah, but no one else in the cast that we've met so far can do that cool contempt thing that's really REQUIRED for that line. And Devlin seems to be enough of a good egg to deal with it.

And what exactly do you WEAR with blue skin?

(Granted, my initial response would be 'She's a GAMILON. Probably black body armor, a cloak and a sword. Enemy's blood optional but preferred')

(My second would be non-printable, considering my Japanese friend just sent me a stack of Dark Stalkers dojinshi for a season of 'The Facts Of Life', and there were some very interesting Hsien-Ko images in there.)

(My third, proving I'm playing too much Everquest, would be a black robe with red trim, a pair of boots, a big mug in one hand and a stick in the other, and a rock with arms flying along behind.)

--
Geoff Depew - Mephron
"Big O! Showtime!"


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Gryphonadmin
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19261 posts
Jun-14-01, 05:23 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #7
 
   >Yeah, but no one else in the cast that we've met so far can do that
>cool contempt thing that's really REQUIRED for that line. And Devlin
>seems to be enough of a good egg to deal with it.

Very true. After all, cool contempt and dealing with it are a big part of Amanda and Devlin's outer relationship. :)

>And what exactly do you WEAR with blue skin?

Mostly black. Not necessarily armor - Amanda's capable of dressing up quite nicely if she really wants - but she feels black suits her best.

Her dress uniform is, of course, navy white, and that looks pretty good too; but for civilian dress she's not really a white-clothes kind of girl. :)

>(Granted, my initial response would be 'She's a GAMILON. Probably
>black body armor, a cloak and a sword. Enemy's blood optional but
>preferred')

Well, there is that black leather vest-and-pants ensemble she wears on stage. (She has a motorcycle, as a matter of fact, I just haven't had an opportunity to show it yet.)

>(My second would be non-printable, considering my Japanese friend just
>sent me a stack of Dark Stalkers dojinshi for a season of 'The Facts
>Of Life', and there were some very interesting Hsien-Ko images in
>there.)

Eeeeeee. :)


-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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Mephronmoderator
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Jun-14-01, 06:23 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #8
 
   >>(My second would be non-printable, considering my Japanese friend just
>>sent me a stack of Dark Stalkers dojinshi for a season of 'The Facts
>>Of Life', and there were some very interesting Hsien-Ko images in
>>there.)
>
>Eeeeeee. :)

Was that a reaction to the dojinshi or me sending someone in Japan 26 episodes of 'The Facts of Life'?

Or both?

<hits the forums with a bottle of beer>

--
Geoff Depew - Mephron
"Big O! Showtime!"


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Gryphonadmin
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19261 posts
Jun-14-01, 06:27 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #9
 
   >>Eeeeeee. :)
>
>Was that a reaction to the dojinshi or me sending someone in Japan 26
>episodes of 'The Facts of Life'?

The latter.

Man, the Japanese are a weird people.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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Wedge
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Jun-14-01, 08:05 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #10
 
   >Man, the Japanese are a weird people.

Bless them for Iron Chef, which I've been hopelessly addicted to since I stumbled on the marathon they ran of it on New Years Day. Admittedly, what first got me hooked was the endearing-yet-goofy quality of the dubs, but it's kind of hard not to be raptly fascinated when they do things like give them $10,000 worth of lobster to play with, or uber special mushrooms that go for $100 a peice, and so on.

Watching an older Japanese man in a metallic red French chef uniform wrestle a live octopus out of a tank with his bare hands also has it's own entertainment value. :)

------------------------
"We are totally fluxed."
------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company


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drakensisthered
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Jun-14-01, 06:49 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #7
 
   >
>And what exactly do you WEAR with blue skin?
>


start with a leather not-quite-black trenchcoat... dark pants, wide belt with a big metal buckle, hang a couple of swords and a gun that looks like a flintlock but acts like a .45 ACP machine pistol. Then throw on a grey-green tunic like an understated napoleanic war uniform. White har in a ponytail to the back of your belt and you've got Yngvi, a very characterful bad guy from the Authority who gets electrocuted in issue #8. He looked pretty cool with his blue skin.


drakensisthered


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Mephronmoderator
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Jun-14-01, 09:57 PM (EST)
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14. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #11
 
   >>
>>And what exactly do you WEAR with blue skin?
>>
>start with a leather not-quite-black trenchcoat... dark pants, wide
>belt with a big metal buckle, hang a couple of swords and a gun that
>looks like a flintlock but acts like a .45 ACP machine pistol. Then
>throw on a grey-green tunic like an understated napoleanic war
>uniform. White har in a ponytail to the back of your belt and you've
>got Yngvi, a very characterful bad guy from the Authority who gets
>electrocuted in issue #8. He looked pretty cool with his blue skin.

As a reader of the Authority (Man, the idea of the Midnighter as a special agent for the WDF is SCARY....), I know precisely the image. Regis was a fuckhead, tho.

--
Geoff Depew - Mephron
"Big O! Showtime!"


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Laudre
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Jun-14-01, 11:48 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #14
 
   >As a reader of the Authority (Man, the idea of the Midnighter as a
>special agent for the WDF is SCARY....), I know precisely the image.
>Regis was a fuckhead, tho.

"I've already run this fight through in my head a million times, Largo. And it ends with your skull empty and glistening in my hand, and precisely one bullet hole in my coat."

I wasn't impressed with the Sliding Albion nobles as villains; they never seemed more than vaguely effective. But they did look damn cool.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog


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drakensisthered
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Jun-15-01, 06:30 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #15
 
   >>As a reader of the Authority (Man, the idea of the Midnighter as a
>>special agent for the WDF is SCARY....), I know precisely the image.
>>Regis was a fuckhead, tho.

True, but Regis got severely worked over by two of my three favorite Wildstorm SPBs... Jenny Sparks in issue 5 of secret history and Jack Hawksmoor in issue 8 of the main Authority title. And Midnighter's not the total psychopath he's made out to be. He's much, much scarier than that. The bit where he 'bonds' with Tank man in #15 shows that he's got a lateral mind.

>
>"I've already run this fight through in my head a million times,
>Largo. And it ends with your skull empty and glistening in my hand,
>and precisely one bullet hole in my coat."

Cool quote. I can see Midnighter saying that. Except what bullethole? Largo doesn't need a gun, had if he had one, Midnighter wouldn't come that close to getting hit before he fed it to Mr. HyperBuma.

>
>I wasn't impressed with the Sliding Albion nobles as villains; they
>never seemed more than vaguely effective. But they did look damn
>cool.
>

I think that that was the entire point.


drakensisthered


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Mephronmoderator
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Jun-15-01, 07:01 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #15
 
   >"I've already run this fight through in my head a million times,
>Largo. And it ends with your skull empty and glistening in my hand,
>and precisely one bullet hole in my coat."

Heh. Largo vs. the Midnighter. The Midnighter could work as a UF character, though. He's got the ability to make Power Angst Zoner look happy in comparison, and the combat chops to give anyone a hard time... the potential, the potential... the need for me to get the first 2 collections of 'Authority' and ship them to Massachusetts...

>I wasn't impressed with the Sliding Albion nobles as villains; they
>never seemed more than vaguely effective. But they did look damn
>cool.

As a friend of mine put it: "You know, Regis seems to go down easy. But he beating the snot out of the Midnighter, and Jack wins by hitting him with the collective pissed-off power of a dozen broken cities... which is pretty close to cheating by most senses of the word."

--
Geoff Depew - Mephron
"Big O! Showtime!"


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thorne
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Jun-16-01, 00:16 AM (EST)
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20. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #2
 
   >o/~ Just repeat to yourself, 'It's just a fic, I should really just relax...' o/~

Every time I apply standard techniques of literary criticism to fanfic, somebody says this. (Bad meme! Bad Best Brains [1] for making bad meme! [2]) Why? What Power exempted fanfic from being judged by the same standards as every other piece of people-plot-story? Ie, those stories with original characters, "no relation to persons living, dead, or previously inked on the small screen", so to speak.

[1] See also: Rhesus 2, "Captain Simian and the Space Monkeys".
[2] See also: David Brin, _Heaven's Reach_, and E-level hyperspace.

And, by Jove's beard, why don't the paragraphs generated by DCBoard *wrap* when the window resizes? Aargh! No, don't answer that on this thread...


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Gryphonadmin
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19261 posts
Jun-16-01, 00:32 AM (EST)
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22. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #20
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jun-16-01 AT 00:34 AM (EDT)

>>o/~ Just repeat to yourself, 'It's just a fic, I should really just relax...' o/~
>
>Every time I apply standard techniques of literary criticism to
>fanfic, somebody says this. Why?

Probably because the standard techniques of literary criticism come off as extremely irritating and pretentious when applied to something you were neither forced, charged, nor paid to read. Maybe serious writers like that kind of thing, it affirms their professionalness or something, but I always get the feeling that I'm washing my car and somebody in a beret has just come up and started criticising the avant-garde sloppiness of my sponge technique.

(Oh - and DCF does wrap text on resize, but it's constrained by the width of the article tree diagram as to how narrow it can go before it puts a scrollbar in. Kvetching about that to the appropriate non-creative topic so Zoner can ignore it like he always does.)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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Laudre
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Jun-16-01, 01:57 AM (EST)
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23. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #22
 
   >>Every time I apply standard techniques of literary criticism to
>>fanfic, somebody says this. Why?
>
>Probably because the standard techniques of literary criticism come
>off as extremely irritating and pretentious when applied to something
>you were neither forced, charged, nor paid to read.

Okay, I'm going to have to agree with thorne/Phil here. This is vaguely slippery-slope-ish, but hand-waving any degree of sloppiness in online fic -- be it original or fan -- is yet another reinforcement of the acceptance of inferior quality. I don't know how much fanfic the EPU staff reads, if any at all, but the signal-to-noise ratio in pretty much any fandom is stupidly, ridiculously low. I got started in Highlander fanfic, which seems to be largely unique in that the vast majority of the people writing it -- or, at least, this was the rule when I was still involved in the fandom -- can use things like a spellchecker and a grammar checker, and their writing is readable and coherent. In terms of actual story quality... well, the average story was definitely better than the average, say, X-Files fanfic, but there was still a fair amount of drek you had to wade through to find something worth reading.

Then, when I started getting into other fandoms -- Gargoyles was actually the next fandom I started reading -- I discovered something. The greater part of net.authors SUCK. They suck HARD. But even the utterly, mind-numbingly, my-brain-is-leaking-out-my-ears-because-I-tried-to-read-this bad stuff seemed to generate fanmail from lemmings who would read literally ANYTHING related to Their Favorite Show. Now, six years after my original start in fanfic, I've found that most people who post online seem to think that little things like style, spelling, and grammar don't really matter, since it's not like they're getting paid to do it or anything. There are a lot of authors who DO care about those things, and I'm always thrilled when I find something I can actually judge on the merits of the story without having to decode a fundamental incoherency, but it becomes hit-or-miss (at best) in even getting THAT out of it.

So what I'm saying is that I judge things I read online, even fanfic, by the same yardstick I use to judge professional writing. I spend more cash on comic books than I do on regular books, generally speaking, and comic book writers, especially those writing for Marvel and DC, write on a schedule. They must have that story ready, and some, like Brian Michael Bendis, churn out several very, very good stories every month. I don't hold net.authors to that particular kind of standard, since they do have day jobs, but since nobody's paying them, and they operate on their own schedule, that means that they can take the time to do it right. And if, in reading a story, I get the sense that the author didn't care enough about the story to take the time to Do It Right (and I have good friends who are unfortunately abysmal writers because of this habit), then I fail to see why I should take that writer seriously, even if they only write fanfic.

I don't differentiate between fanfic and original fic for these purposes; I expect quality, and when I don't get it, I'm going to say something about it. Maybe I do let a little more slide than I would in a professional publication, but not all that much, and I'm not going to let ANYTHING glaring slip by me. Especially since, this being the 'net, it's FAR easier to correct stupid mistakes than it is when you run off 15,000 copies and have to wait for the new edition to come out in order to fix them.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog


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Matrix Dragon
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Jun-20-01, 11:41 PM (EST)
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26. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #23
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jun-20-01 AT 11:42 PM (EDT)

>Now, six years after my original start in fanfic, I've found that most people
>who post online seem to think that little things like style, spelling, and
>grammar don't really matter, since it's not like they're getting paid to do it
>or anything. There are a lot of authors who DO care about those things, and
>I'm always thrilled when I find something I can actually judge on the merits
>of the story without having to decode a fundamental incoherency, but it
>becomes hit-or-miss (at best) in even getting THAT out of it.

I've gotta agree with this. Most net.authors seem to lack even the ability to use spellcheck in MS Word or similar programs. I've found fics that have a great plot, good characters and a compelling storyline, but are ruined by bad spelling and grammer. I'm not innocent of this, as some of my earlier fics were much like this, but surely you can't write for so long and not learn from your mistakes. I've been writting fanfiction for three years, and I've improved to the point that I'm no longer flamed for bad spelling.

I read a lot. Books, magazines and fanfiction are all part of my favorite hobby, and I hate people that expect the reader to try and make their way through stories that can have almost five words mispelled per sentence. Authors, for the sake of your fans, please remember this.

Matrix Dragon
"At least EPU doesn't have spelling problems."


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drakensisthered
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Jun-21-01, 00:48 AM (EST)
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27. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #26
 
   The major problem I find is the writers whose grip on the English language is so loose that they keep slipping between past and present tense. Writing in present tense is suspect enough, but is it really that hard to remember which you're writing in for as long as a single paragraph?

To be fair, there are a lot of wirters who are very good about the technical quality of their writing (and spellchecking anything with Japanese names in it is time-consuming at best), with maybe the odd persistent mistake. Like Skysaber's 'deliberate' use of Pheonix. (deliberate? yaright)


drakensisthered

So I simply said one of the great trite truths: "There is generally more than one side to a story." - Corwin, Roger Zelazny's 'Courts of Chaos'


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BobSchroeck
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Jun-21-01, 12:51 PM (EST)
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29. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #27
 
   >To be fair, there are a lot of wirters who are very good about the

"Wirters"? <chuckle>

>persistent mistake. Like Skysaber's 'deliberate' use of Pheonix.
>(deliberate? yaright)

Yeah, apparently so. Just read "Mirrors Multiplied" 19 off of RAAC today, and it uses "Pheonix" exclusively for his SI, and "Phoenix" elsewhere.

-- Bob
---------------
Come to the Wired. Ask for Lain. I will help you.
-- from Serial Experiments Lain: The Legend Continues


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Khirsah
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Jul-04-01, 10:06 PM (EST)
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36. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #27
 
   >The major problem I find is the writers whose grip on the English
>language is so loose that they keep slipping between past and present
>tense. Writing in present tense is suspect enough, but is it really
>that hard to remember which you're writing in for as long as a single
>paragraph?

Is for me - even when I'm chatting on one of the MUCKs/MUSHes I'm on. I keep slipping between past/present tense and first/third perspective. MY SO has gotten so used to it that she doesn't even realize when I do it, these days.

Oddly, I don't really have that problem when writing fics - once in a while, I'll slip, but most of the time it's actually a typo - I hit the 'd' instead of the 's', etc.

>To be fair, there are a lot of wirters who are very good about the
>technical quality of their writing (and spellchecking anything with
>Japanese names in it is time-consuming at best), with maybe the odd
>persistent mistake. Like Skysaber's 'deliberate' use of Pheonix.
>(deliberate? yaright)

I try to be. It's why I keep looking for people I know to help proofread my stuff - I know I miss things, and my primary text editor lacks a spellcheck.

>drakensisthered
>
>So I simply said one of the great trite truths: "There is generally
>more than one side to a story." - Corwin, Roger Zelazny's 'Courts of
>Chaos'


-Khirsah the Deranged
"In the beginning there was the Word, and it was written by a <censored for national security reasons>."


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thorne
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Jun-24-01, 00:07 AM (EST)
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30. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #23
 
   Yours-truly wrote on 16-jun-2001:
>>>Every time I apply standard techniques of literary criticism to
>>>fanfic, somebody says this. Why?

Gryphon wrote later on 16-jun-2001:
>>Probably because the standard techniques of literary criticism come
>>off as extremely irritating and pretentious when applied to something
>>you were neither forced, charged, nor paid to read.

Hey, some of us *enjoyed* high school English class. :) And don't feel singled out: I review printed books too.

Besides, (voice gets misty here) I wouldn't spend the effort to gripe about UF if I didn't enjoy it. (beat) Oh, wait -- I seem to have written a synopsis of
Turbo: A Power Rangers Movie. This is not exactly buttressing my thesis...

(Though with all due fairness to Mr.Saban et al, "Power Rangers Timeforce" achieves new heights of complexity in its book-end characterizations; and the Pink Ranger is the leader, to boot.)

((I'm just digging my hole deeper here, aren't I?))

Laudre wrote even later on 16-jun-2001:
>Okay, I'm going to have to agree with thorne/Phil here.

Thank you for confirming I'm not a total critique-weirdo. And thanks also to Matrix Dragon, Drakensisthered and Bob Schroek. (Though their comments relate to proper spelling, which I think no one can object to -- except, apparently, for certain hypersensitive authors mentioned on Lizard's fanfic-writers_l@io.com, to which Megazone sometimes posts.)

And "Phil" is fine. I picked "thorne" as a username because, on most services, it's usually already taken; and I've never really gotten into the whole "nic" thing.

>[...] hand-waving any degree of sloppiness
>in online fic -- be it original or fan -- is yet another reinforcement
>of the acceptance of inferior quality. [...]
>I judge things I read online, even fanfic,
>by the same yardstick I use to judge professional writing. [...]

I should note that I've never had any problem with EPU's spelling or grammar, and only minor objections to certain elements of style. (But many professional authors I've read do worse.) What gets my goat is the way *oodles* of source material (from anime, occidental-SF, etc.) -- personas, characters, ships, entire political unions -- have been jammed together, just because they're "cool". Given my personal preference for fictional universes that evolve according to *rules*, not *fiat*, it just *grates*.

It's a love-hate relationship. I love the characters and hate certain aspects of the venue.


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Gryphonadmin
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Jun-24-01, 00:41 AM (EST)
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31. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #30
 
   >Given my personal
>preference for fictional universes that evolve according to *rules*,
>not *fiat*, it just *grates*.

Well, then you're in the wrong aisle, Chief, because I'm all about fiat when it comes to the design of the UF universe. UF is fiat.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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megazone
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Jun-24-01, 03:11 PM (EST)
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32. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #30
 
   >many professional authors I've read do worse.) What gets my goat is
>the way *oodles* of source material (from anime, occidental-SF, etc.)
>-- personas, characters, ships, entire political unions -- have been
>jammed together, just because they're "cool". Given my personal

But that's the *ENTIRE POINT* of UF! It was created precisely to combine things because they'd be cool. UF got more serious later, but the roots have always been in "hey, wouldn't it be cool if..." And then trying to make that work a way that is at least believable and internally consistent with the rest of the universe as written. That's still how a lot of the stories work - we'll be talking about things, maybe just joking, and we'll be like "hmm, you know, that might work..."

>preference for fictional universes that evolve according to *rules*,
>not *fiat*, it just *grates*.

Personally I don't read much SF, because that which I have read I didn't much like. Especially the stuff with stodgy rules to the way things evolved. I tend to read techno-thrillers, Stephen King, and I rather like the Shadowrun books I've read. They have loose rules, but they're fun to read.

I don't like 'rules based' SF, so I don't write it.

I find stories that explain how and why things exist tiresome. Who cares, they exist, if the connection isn't important to the story - shut up and get on with the story. I don't care how the Dantrovians evolved, they exist *fiat* and that's all that matters.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
See what I'm selling on eBay


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Laudre
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Jun-24-01, 09:18 PM (EST)
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33. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #32
 
   >But that's the *ENTIRE POINT* of UF! It was created precisely to
>combine things because they'd be cool.

And that's why UF is cool. It's fun and always interesting to read, and the characters have valid emotional lives, believable and the kind the reader can relate to; a true credit to the writers.

However...

>I don't like 'rules based' SF, so I don't write it.
>
>I find stories that explain how and why things exist tiresome. Who
>cares, they exist, if the connection isn't important to the story -
>shut up and get on with the story. I don't care how the Dantrovians
>evolved, they exist *fiat* and that's all that matters.

...sort of.

I'm going to have to disagree here. We don't have to know the entire history of the Dantrovian species, or how they evolved into a single world culture, or anything else.

But...

In doing something on a more serious level than UF or, say, WL, requires more than just "They Exist". There needs to be a "bible", so to speak, a history and reference that explains how things came to be, how people became like they are. Odds are, the reader/viewer/whatever won't see most of it. But in knowing the backstory, the universe that the story takes place in becomes more believable. Things don't just happen; there's a rhyme and a reason. Knowing where these things come from, knowing why they happened, is key to building an internally consistent and credible universe, and that's the secret to believability.

Example: the Alien films. In the first (and, IMHO, best) film, the caustic alien blood burns through three or four decks worth of floor/ceiling. In the fourth film, it burns a guy's face. Somewhat. It's a minor nit, but it's something that shows how horribly those rules are applied, and often thrown out the window.

I'm a longtime Highlander fan. I love the first movie. I love the series (well, except for 12 out of 13 episodes of the sixth season, and the last two episodes of the fifth season). But the producers and writers would repeatedly ignore continuity; each film takes place in its own continuity, and the series takes place in a separate continuity (although one related to the series, in the same way that the series is related to the first film). Rules are ignored, and it makes it very easy to get torn out of the story with a response of "but... that's not how it happened" or "That couldn't have happened" or something to that effect.

It's very easy for the fiat-method to go horribly wrong. I've seen it result in sometimes halfway-decent stories that end badly, thus ruining the whole story, because of those kinds of inconsistencies.

Fiat-based stories CAN work. They CAN be fun. UF is a prime example. But it's a lot harder to get engaged in something that lacks logic or consistency.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog


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Wedge
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Jun-24-01, 10:01 PM (EST)
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34. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #33
 
   >Example: the Alien films. In the first (and, IMHO, best) film, the
>caustic alien blood burns through three or four decks worth of
>floor/ceiling. In the fourth film, it burns a guy's face. Somewhat.
>It's a minor nit, but it's something that shows how horribly those
>rules are applied, and often thrown out the window.

A nit for a nit: The aliens in the fourth film were not 'purebred' but gengineered from a genetic sample of a queen-impregnated Ripley. Just as Ripley was a mix of the genetics, so, in theory, would the newly created aliens be as well. They showed her blood was mildly acidic, and inversely the high acidity of the original alien blood might be diluted by mixing with human genes.

Is this explained explicitly in the film? No, so on the surface it's still a valid point, but the concept I just put up could very well be in someone's backstory that was working on the script.

Personally I like the concepts and style they put forth in the fourth film, but there was too much style and not enough substance which made much less than it could have been. I wish they'd just give up and finally do an Earth War-esque movie...

------------------------
"We are totally fluxed."
------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company


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Laudre
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Jun-24-01, 11:39 PM (EST)
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35. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #34
 
   >Personally I like the concepts and style they put forth in the fourth
>film, but there was too much style and not enough substance which made
>much less than it could have been. I wish they'd just give up and
>finally do an Earth War-esque movie...

Bah. I'm waiting for Alien vs. Predator.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog


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megazone
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Jun-16-01, 03:42 AM (EST)
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24. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #22
 
   >puts a scrollbar in. Kvetching about that to the appropriate
>non-creative topic so Zoner can ignore it like he always does.)

And since I'm being lazy... usually it is the subject line. Note you can adjust the length of the subject line that is visible in the threaded view, and the depth of the indenting for each level of the thread, in the admin screen. So feel free to change it Gryph...

Not like I haven't contributed anything to the forum code: http://www.eyrie-productions.com/dcf-hacks/00readme.html

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
See what I'm selling on eBay


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Gryphonadmin
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Jun-16-01, 06:06 AM (EST)
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25. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #24
 
   >>puts a scrollbar in. Kvetching about that to the appropriate
>>non-creative topic so Zoner can ignore it like he always does.)
>
>And since I'm being lazy... usually it is the subject line. Note you
>can adjust the length of the subject line that is visible in the
>threaded view, and the depth of the indenting for each level of the
>thread, in the admin screen. So feel free to change it Gryph...

Heh, I meant that in sort of a, "like he always does, in favor of fixing things that are actually problems" way, but... ah, sue me, it's late.

--G.
extra crispy
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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Dreamshadow
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Jun-14-01, 04:28 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #1
 
  
Young Kaolla Suu or ..... 'older' Kaolla Suu? BTW, I like the fansubs I've seen of Love Hina. It's balanced between OMG and Tenchi, with no goddesses or aliens. It's a lot of fun. Go find, watch, and enjoy! (Or do whatever, I think it is nifty!)

Tom 'Dreamshadow' Tjarks
------------------------
No quote....etouq oN


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Gryphonadmin
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Jun-14-01, 04:38 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #4
 
   >Young Kaolla Suu or ..... 'older' Kaolla Suu?

Well, one does grow into the other, and Azalynn won't be 15 forever. :)

(Truss, do you still have that image?)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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trussteam
Member since Aug-9-13
Jun-14-01, 08:10 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #5
 
   >>Young Kaolla Suu or ..... 'older' Kaolla Suu?
>
>Well, one does grow into the other, and Azalynn won't be 15 forever.
>:)

True, although Kaolla is an 8th grader in the anime. So Azalynn is a little older, though people of her race are generally a little thinner and shorter than humans of the same age. I think. :)

>(Truss, do you still have that image?)

Yup. Right here.

--truss.


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Berk
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Jun-15-01, 09:19 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #13
 
   Gotten a lot of mileage out of that picture I see... n.- Glad I thought to hack it out of the manga scans.

Berk Watkins
Student of Quantum Bogodynamics...


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thorne
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Jun-15-01, 11:57 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #1
 
   Thank you for your responses.

>>Allusions in SotS:WR imply something *bad* happened at Ohtori Academy
>>(will we ever find out *what*?)
>No, I figured I'd just leave that unresolved forever and ever.
>Of course we'll find out what happened!

Oh nonsense, it's not as if anyone expects a plot point to vanish between chapters under mysterious circumstances; why, that would be unprecedented in EPU's history. [1]

>> -- are the images and lyrics of the opening sequence prophetic? [...]
>Can't tell you exactly... some of it is, some of it isn't.

Actually, I was referring to the climax of RGU itself -- but nevermind; if I really want to know, I'll go find an epguide.

>[...] worked out from context - after all, you don't see Anthy anywhere, do you?

That could mean many things. Since Saionji is looking for the Rose Bride, either (a) she's not dead, (b) he doesn't *know* she's dead, or (c) the office has passed to a new holder. [2] Maybe she's stuck under the giant castle and is drinking tea with her blue mouse-monkey. Maybe she vanished into whatever pocket dimension the sword hides in, in a freak accident during its, err, reinsertion. (How is *that* accomplished, I wonder? No sniggers, please.)

>>Re 2: Azalynn the Dantrovian [...] a species with precedent in UF?
>Nope, I made them up for Az.

Hmmm... wasn't it the Dantovasku who Redneck created in his UF section? Great, now I have to hash xenoc species names on more than the first three phonemes. :)

>>[...] Seems awfully *egalitarian*...
>Amanda's a bit odd. We'll be learning more about her later.

As opposed to learning about her a bit sooner, the next time you write a (Phil gestures hands vaguely) sidestory - prequel - thingy.

>>Re 5: [...] True, such declarations up front would be
>>spoilers; but they could instead appear in the *end* credits.
>Mm, I suppose. I don't like giving that kind of thing away ahead of
>time, and the end credits didn't have room.

If the end-credits don't have room, then it's time for some fan to produce the _EPU Concordance_. _UF: The Cliffs Notes Edition_. Or _Enlist in the WDF! - For Dummies_. Characters! Species! Ships! The many loves of Gryphon! Extraneous universes neglected with the dustbunnies under the couch!

(But it probably won't be me. I'm a bit busy with my own weekly SF-etc. newsletter and contributing data-and-maybe-code to the TV Tome episodes DB.)

>>Re 6: the shape of UF's future.
>>It's just like *today*, with the occasional alien, spaceship or niftier computer. [...]
>No increases in longevity?
>John Gill is pitching in the major leagues and batting .339 at the age of fifty-eight.

(Phil tilts his, clears his throat, and displays his vast, vast - vast - knowledge of professional sports.) That's somehow unusual?

>As for cybernetics, [...] people don't walk around going "ph33r my l33t cyb4rj3x!"

I suppose Zoner-the-assassin was a bit of an extreme case, then. Otherwise, I sit corrected on both points. Though I reserve the right to object to *other* points. :)

>>[...] (as a reader of serious SF) it doesn't ring true to me
>UF isn't serious SF. Its world is a future that I would
>like to live in - and that means it's just like today [...]

(Phil grinds his eyebrows, gnashes his forehead, and thinks ambivalent thoughts about his preferences in authorial style.) I'm just going to go off and construct a convoluted conspiracy of epicyles to explain the apparent cultural stagnation of the WDF-dominated galaxy, then. Don't mind me -- merely resolving some cognitive dissonance.

[1] See: G'kar, B5:"Soul Mates".
[2] Cue Piers Anthony and _Incarnations of Immortality_.


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Gryphonadmin
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Jun-16-01, 00:27 AM (EST)
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21. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #19
 
   >>> -- are the images and lyrics of the opening sequence prophetic? [...]
>>Can't tell you exactly... some of it is, some of it isn't.
>
>Actually, I was referring to the climax of RGU itself -- but
>nevermind; if I really want to know, I'll go find an epguide.

Oh... well, I probably shouldn't tell you that either.

>> worked out from context - after all, you don't see Anthy anywhere, do you?
>
>That could mean many things. Since Saionji is looking for the Rose
>Bride, either (a) she's not dead, (b) he doesn't *know* she's dead, or
>(c) the office has passed to a new holder.

He's not looking for the Rose Bride, he's looking for Anthy. He doesn't give a flying fish if she's the Rose Bride anymore or not.

>Maybe she vanished into whatever pocket dimension the sword hides in,
>in a freak accident during its, err, reinsertion. (How is *that*
>accomplished, I wonder? No sniggers, please.)

They don't show it more than once or twice, but the sword just disappears when it's not needed anymore - breaks up into yellow sparks and vanishes. (Presumably they all do that. In the next story arc after Software Sculptors stopped, it's shown that apparently everybody has a spirit sword.)

Anyway, as far as Utena knows as of Wounded Rose, Anthy is still trapped in the place where Utena came from, though she's not sure entirely where that is in relation to where she is now. So the imagery involving the two of them being pulled apart is accurate for our purposes.

>Hmmm... wasn't it the Dantovasku who Redneck created in his UF
>section?

No. There's an alien race called the Santovasku, which are from Johji Manabe's Outlanders, kicking around...

>>No increases in longevity?
>>John Gill is pitching in the major leagues and batting .339 at the age of fifty-eight.
>
>(Phil tilts his, clears his throat, and displays his vast, vast - vast
>- knowledge of professional sports.) That's somehow unusual?

It's rare for a professional baseball player to be able to pitch successfully at the major-league level at the age of thirty-eight, let alone fifty-eight. Nolan Ryan was a legend of durability for making it to forty.

>>>[...] (as a reader of serious SF) it doesn't ring true to me
>>UF isn't serious SF. Its world is a future that I would
>>like to live in - and that means it's just like today [...]
>
>(Phil grinds his eyebrows, gnashes his forehead, and thinks ambivalent
>thoughts about his preferences in authorial style.)

Well, hey, it's not like you had to pay for it or anything. If it bugs you that much, the elevator's that way...

>I'm just going to
>go off and construct a convoluted conspiracy of epicyles to explain
>the apparent cultural stagnation of the WDF-dominated galaxy, then.

That's fine if you have to, so long as you don't end up representing it as The True and Complete History of Why This Is Like This. 'Cause, not to put too fine a point on it, it ain't unless I made it up, and sometimes not even then. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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Redneck
Charter Member
Jun-21-01, 02:29 AM (EST)
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28. "RE: Six reactions to "SotS:1-WR""
In response to message #19
 
  
>>>Re 2: Azalynn the Dantrovian [...] a species with precedent in UF?
>>Nope, I made them up for Az.
>
>Hmmm... wasn't it the Dantovasku who Redneck created in his UF
>section?

Santovasku, created by Johji Manabe.

>>>[...] Seems awfully *egalitarian*...
>>Amanda's a bit odd. We'll be learning more about her later.

She takes mildly after her father, you see...

>As opposed to learning about her a bit sooner, the next time you write
>a (Phil gestures hands vaguely) sidestory - prequel - thingy.

Hey, what comes out comes out. Writing isn't as easy as it looks. }:-{D

>>>Re 5: [...] True, such declarations up front would be
>>>spoilers; but they could instead appear in the *end* credits.
>>Mm, I suppose. I don't like giving that kind of thing away ahead of
>>time, and the end credits didn't have room.
>
>If the end-credits don't have room, then it's time for some fan to
>produce the _EPU Concordance_. _UF: The Cliffs Notes
>Edition_
. Or _Enlist in the WDF! - For Dummies_.
>Characters! Species! Ships! The many loves of Gryphon! Extraneous
>universes neglected with the dustbunnies under the couch!

To a -small- extent, that's what I look to with the HHGG entries in this Forum. Hopefully some of the other authors will start contributing if people make requests (hint hint).

>>As for cybernetics, [...] people don't walk around going "ph33r my l33t cyb4rj3x!"
>
>I suppose Zoner-the-assassin was a bit of an extreme case, then.

He was, and is, extreme in virtually -every- case. }:-{D

Redneck

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope


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