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Subject: "The (UF) Guide" Archived thread - Read only
 
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Conferences Undocumented Features General Topic #29
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TRB
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Jun-19-01, 00:04 AM (EST)
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"The (UF) Guide"
 
   I just wanted to mention the material in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the (UF) Galaxy thread is really awesome. Lot of fun to read.
I probably just missed it somewhere, but I haven't seen any public mention of just how cool it is, and I wanted to make sure it was known that the work is appreciated B-)

TRB

"I wish I was reaper, culling lost souls. I wish I could cast them into deep and lonely holes."


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: The (UF) Guide Direwolf Jun-19-01 1
     RE: The (UF) Guide thorne Jun-23-01 2
         RE: The (UF) Guide ejheckathorn Jun-23-01 3
         RE: The (UF) Guide Star Ranger4 Jun-24-01 4
             RE: The (UF) Guide Nathan Jun-24-01 5
                 RE: The (UF) Guide drakensisthered Jun-25-01 8
                     RE: The (UF) Guide Star Ranger4 Jun-25-01 9
                         RE: The (UF) Guide drakensisthered Jun-25-01 10
                             RE: The (UF) Guide Star Ranger4 Jul-05-01 12
         RE: The (UF) Guide Redneck Jun-24-01 7
             RE: The (UF) Guide thorne Jul-04-01 11
  RE: The (UF) Guide Redneck Jun-24-01 6
  RE: The (UF) Guide Kylone Jul-19-01 13

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Direwolf
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Jun-19-01, 02:03 AM (EST)
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1. "RE: The (UF) Guide"
In response to message #0
 
   I second that sentiment, highly entertaining. Background information is always appreciated.


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thorne
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Jun-23-01, 11:37 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: The (UF) Guide"
In response to message #1
 
   TRB wrote, and Direwolf seconded, on 19-jun-2001:
>I second that sentiment, highly entertaining.
>Background information is always appreciated.

I also thank Redneck for his efforts. In fact, I sometimes find backstory encyclopedia articles (regardless of author) more entertaining than the plot-stories themselves. (Eg, I was very disappointed when the latter two books of Charles Sheffield's _Heritage Universe_ tetralogy lacked excerpts from Daria Lang's catalog of Builder Artifacts.) Also shorter.

From the "Baseball" article:
>T'Khut Diamondbacks

Ah. So you're using Diane Duane's(?) _Spock's World_ names? IIRC, T'Khazi is Vulcan-proper and T'Khut is the "Vulcan has no moon" that fills half the sky in ST:TMP?

>Beta Colony Gypsies

ISTR there was more than one "Beta Colony" in B5: Beta 5, Beta 7, etc. I think there was even a joke in one ep to that effect.

>Landing (Manticore) Treecats

Ah. So certain elements of David Weber's _Honor Harrington_ series have been... assimilated? Aside from the fact that his ship combat techbase totally lacks fighters? (In the first two novels, anyway; as far as I've gotten.)

>*Jyurai, Kingdom of Jyurai (Ohmu)

So not only Washu, self-proclaimed Greatest Scientist in the Universe, has been assimilated from "Tenchi"? But apparently not "the Jyurai Power, the ultimate power that allows Jyurai to dominate the universe". And the universe would probably blow a fuse if Tsunami, Tokimi and the other gods (there's a new "Tenchi" TV series in the works that follows that thread) ran into Odin's brood.

And given the size of the trees on planet Jyurai, Ohmu-bugs (from Miyazaki's film "Nausicaa: Valley of the Wind") could certainly be accomodated.

From "CFA-919 New Orleans":
>What's really impressive is that those numbers do not include the
>unofficial population, those who squirrel around the 40% of the
>ship which is very, very slowly being claimed by the ongoing refit.
>[...] It's bloody dangerous in the uninhabitable zones.

A better justification for Downbelow and Lurkers than JMS ever advanced in B5, IMHO.


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ejheckathorn
Member since Aug-9-13
33 posts
Jun-23-01, 11:43 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: The (UF) Guide"
In response to message #2
 
   >
>>Beta Colony Gypsies
>
>ISTR there was more than one "Beta Colony" in B5: Beta 5, Beta 7, etc.
>I think there was even a joke in one ep to that effect.
>

I think the reference is to the Beta Colony in Lois McMaster Bujold's Miles Vorkosigan novels.


Eric J. Heckathorn
ericjh@stargate.net


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Star Ranger4
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Jun-24-01, 00:10 AM (EST)
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4. "RE: The (UF) Guide"
In response to message #2
 
   >TRB wrote, and Direwolf seconded, on 19-jun-2001:
>>I second that sentiment, highly entertaining.
>>Background information is always appreciated.
>
>>Landing (Manticore) Treecats
>
>Ah. So certain elements of David Weber's _Honor Harrington_ series
>have been... assimilated? Aside from the fact that his ship combat
>techbase totally lacks fighters? (In the first two novels, anyway; as
>far as I've gotten.)
>

Yup, although its only a passing refference. It's part of the Freespacer stories, the one where Redneck returns to take control of the fleet again. He echo's Honor from Hecho of Honor when he calls a certain Rear Admiral Styles "A walking fustercluck of an officer".

And yes, Webber does come up with the equivalent of fighters later on in the series. You'll see them make an apperance starting with "Honor Amoung Enemies".

___________________

Vaughn doesn't know I exist. I guess this explains why the rest of reality keeps ignoring me as well. >_<


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Nathan
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1324 posts
Jun-24-01, 01:01 AM (EST)
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5. "RE: The (UF) Guide"
In response to message #4
 
   >>>Landing (Manticore) Treecats
>>
>>Ah. So certain elements of David Weber's _Honor Harrington_ series
>>have been... assimilated? Aside from the fact that his ship combat
>>techbase totally lacks fighters? (In the first two novels, anyway; as
>>far as I've gotten.)

>Yup, although its only a passing refference. It's part of the
>Freespacer stories, the one where Redneck returns to take control of
>the fleet again. He echo's Honor from Hecho of Honor when he calls a
>certain Rear Admiral Styles "A walking fustercluck of an officer".
>
>And yes, Webber does come up with the equivalent of fighters later on
>in the series. You'll see them make an apperance starting with "Honor
>Amoung Enemies".

Of course, in that universe, "fighter" status means that it only outweighs the average seagoing battleship... Yes, I'm exaggerrating, but when a ship to ship missile is quoted at 50 tons, and all comers are fielding ~2.5 mile slabs of self propelled armor, well...

Y'know, it occurs to me that the Shrikes actually kinda match the WDF design philosophy. Fast, tough, and built around a single big@$$ gun.

...

I'll shut up now.

Blessed be.
Nathan Baxter


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drakensisthered
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Jun-25-01, 00:42 AM (EST)
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8. "RE: The (UF) Guide"
In response to message #5
 
  
>>And yes, Webber does come up with the equivalent of fighters later on
>>in the series. You'll see them make an apperance starting with "Honor
>>Amoung Enemies".
>
>Of course, in that universe, "fighter" status means that it only
>outweighs the average seagoing battleship... Yes, I'm exaggerrating,
>but when a ship to ship missile is quoted at 50 tons, and all comers
>are fielding ~2.5 mile slabs of self propelled armor, well...
>
>Y'know, it occurs to me that the Shrikes actually kinda match the WDF
>design philosophy. Fast, tough, and built around a single big@$$ gun.

Well, the LACs are more like the equivalent of heavy/stealth bombers, or maybe torpedo-bombers, than fighters (I don't think you could dogfight in them, given they don't have reactionless drives).

And the techs have the same approach as the WDF: as soon as they get a new toy they have to start playing with it, such as the addition of the rear sidewall generator OUTSIDE the hull (because there's no armor on the hull ANYWAY, so what does it matter?

drakensisthered

So I simply said one of the great trite truths: "There is generally more than one side to a story." - Corwin, Roger Zelazny's 'Courts of Chaos'


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Star Ranger4
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2207 posts
Jun-25-01, 01:34 AM (EST)
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9. "RE: The (UF) Guide"
In response to message #8
 
   >>Of course, in that universe, "fighter" status means that it only
>>outweighs the average seagoing battleship... Yes, I'm exaggerrating,
>>but when a ship to ship missile is quoted at 50 tons, and all comers
>>are fielding ~2.5 mile slabs of self propelled armor, well...
>>
>>Y'know, it occurs to me that the Shrikes actually kinda match the WDF
>>design philosophy. Fast, tough, and built around a single big@$$ gun.
>
>Well, the LACs are more like the equivalent of heavy/stealth bombers,
>or maybe torpedo-bombers, than fighters (I don't think you could
>dogfight in them, given they don't have reactionless drives).
>
>And the techs have the same approach as the WDF: as soon as they get a
>new toy they have to start playing with it, such as the addition of
>the rear sidewall generator OUTSIDE the hull (because there's no armor
>on the hull ANYWAY, so what does it matter?
>

Not really. All in all, the LAC's really are more like fighters, in and of even with their capabilities, they still must put nose on target to some extent. Rather, what I see right now is that the ShrikeB class LAC's are rather more like putting an F-22 up against a P-51 mustang.

Recall that WAAY back in Basilisk, Cardones was playing a sim where it was a destroyer on destroyer duel... and both were whipping around like crazy to get firing angles. Ergo, a LAC vs LAC engagement would be much the same.

Its just that until the new compensators and the Greyson Fission piles, it wasn't really feasable, etc... I have a feeling that if Webber decided to let Theisman have equivalent LAC's in a future book, you'd see more 'dogfighting'...

___________________

Vaughn doesn't know I exist. I guess this explains why the rest of reality keeps ignoring me as well. >_<


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drakensisthered
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Jun-25-01, 06:40 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: The (UF) Guide"
In response to message #9
 
   >Recall that WAAY back in Basilisk, Cardones was playing a sim where it
>was a destroyer on destroyer duel... and both were whipping around
>like crazy to get firing angles. Ergo, a LAC vs LAC engagement would
>be much the same.
>

I don't remember this, athough I'm happy to take your word for it. However, could this have involved them turning back and forth on their axis, trying to get in their shot between having their wedges in position to keep enemy fire off? That's established as quite a common tactic (Caslet used a variation in Honor Among Enemies).

drakensisthered

So I simply said one of the great trite truths: "There is generally more than one side to a story." - Corwin, Roger Zelazny's 'Courts of Chaos'


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Star Ranger4
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2207 posts
Jul-05-01, 02:25 AM (EST)
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12. "RE: The (UF) Guide"
In response to message #10
 
   >
>I don't remember this, athough I'm happy to take your word for it.
>However, could this have involved them turning back and forth on their
>axis, trying to get in their shot between having their wedges in
>position to keep enemy fire off? That's established as quite a common
>tactic (Caslet used a variation in Honor Among Enemies).
>

Nope. Rolling to present the belly of your wedge is most effective when you're in a wall of battle. This does NOT, however mean that smaller ships never roll. The example you're thinking off is that Castlet (and in Honor of the Queen, Thiesman) was rolling ship to allow him to fire double broadsides to thicken his fire.

Smaller ships manuver a LOT more, either to interpose their wedge as much as possible (works best against beams and dead drive missiles) or to get into a position to fire where the enemies wedge ISN'T in the way. This is why most small ship 'duels' tend to be twisty, turny affairs rather than head on slugging matches that ;eave Honor's ship's reduced to near scrap. You see this time and again in the books. Book 1, she had no choice but to chase up the wake of Sirius, taking a pounding. Same VS Thunder of God in Book 2, also in book 3, where the only hope was to draw Admiral Chin away from the base and hope.

When she was able to use trickery, she often comes out with little or no damage, to wit, when she 'pots' Admiral D'Orville, and/or her tactics in Silesia and Cerebus.

___________________

Vaughn doesn't know I exist. I guess this explains why the rest of reality keeps ignoring me as well. >_<


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Redneck
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Jun-24-01, 08:08 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: The (UF) Guide"
In response to message #2
 
   >TRB wrote, and Direwolf seconded, on 19-jun-2001:

>From the "Baseball" article:
>>T'Khut Diamondbacks
>
>Ah. So you're using Diane Duane's(?) _Spock's World_ names? IIRC,
>T'Khazi is Vulcan-proper and T'Khut is the "Vulcan has no moon" that
>fills half the sky in ST:TMP?

Maybe; maybe not. }:-{D

>>Beta Colony Gypsies
>
>ISTR there was more than one "Beta Colony" in B5: Beta 5, Beta 7, etc.
>I think there was even a joke in one ep to that effect.

Nope. Not a B5 reference. In UF, Beta Colony is a mixture of the Beta Colony from Bujold's Vorkosigan novels and Betazed from ST:TNG. It's an Earth colony which was founded by genetic pioneers wanting to get away from Earth's anti-cloning prejudices. As one side-effect of their early efforts, roughly three-quarters of the planet's population is telepathic or at least empathic, and there is a large hermaphrodite minority...

>>Landing (Manticore) Treecats
>
>Ah. So certain elements of David Weber's _Honor Harrington_ series
>have been... assimilated? Aside from the fact that his ship combat
>techbase totally lacks fighters? (In the first two novels, anyway; as
>far as I've gotten.)

Certain elements, yes. In the original universe, the Manticore Star Kingdom has lost baseball, but considering the much shorter history here I've handwaved that away.

Also, the UFP Starfleet has no starfighter arm, techbase, or support, so Manticore is hardly alone there.

>>*Jyurai, Kingdom of Jyurai (Ohmu)
>
>So not only Washu, self-proclaimed Greatest Scientist in the Universe,
>has been assimilated from "Tenchi"? But apparently not "the Jyurai
>Power, the ultimate power that allows Jyurai to dominate the
>universe". And the universe would probably blow a fuse if Tsunami,
>Tokimi and the other gods (there's a new "Tenchi" TV series in the
>works that follows that thread) ran into Odin's brood.

The answers for most of this are incredibly spoiler-riffic for a story or two currently in production.

>And given the size of the trees on planet Jyurai, Ohmu-bugs (from
>Miyazaki's film "Nausicaa: Valley of the Wind") could certainly be
>accomodated.

I can say this much: there is an isolated and independent Kingdom of Jyurai, and Nausicaa was a great heroine from that planet's early history.

>From "CFA-919 New Orleans":
>>What's really impressive is that those numbers do not include the
>>unofficial population, those who squirrel around the 40% of the
>>ship which is very, very slowly being claimed by the ongoing refit.
>>[...] It's bloody dangerous in the uninhabitable zones.
>
>A better justification for Downbelow and Lurkers than JMS ever
>advanced in B5, IMHO.

I didn't think he needed justification; any large center of population will develop slums, homeless, and fugitives, no matter what the circumstances.

CFA New Orleans just happens to be more receptive to that problem than most other places.

Redneck

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope


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thorne
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Jul-04-01, 08:44 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: The (UF) Guide"
In response to message #7
 
   Redneck wrote on 24-jun-2001:
>Phil Thorne wrote on 23-jun-2001:
>>TRB wrote, and Direwolf seconded, on 19-jun-2001:

[Baseball, T'Khut Diamondbacks]
[Beta Colony != B5, == Vorkosigan + Betazed]
[Baseball, Landing Treecats]

>>>*Jyurai, Kingdom of Jyurai (Ohmu)
>>So not only Washu, [...]
>The answers for most of this are incredibly spoiler-riffic for a story
>or two currently in production.

Yay, an upcoming story with fuses! -- err, Jyuraians.
Oh -- glancing at the cast list, I'm guessing one of those would be UF:FI:SotS:2.

>>And given the size of the trees on planet Jyurai, Ohmu-bugs
>[...] there is an isolated and independent Kingdom of Jyurai,

I.e. not affiliated with the UFP, United Galactica, Old Republic, or any other predecessor or antecedent?

>and Nausicaa was a great heroine from that planet's early history.

I can imagine dinner conversation with the JRF (Jyurai Royal Family), somewhere up around Level 900 in the royal tree-palace. Something about Ohmu in the pantry again...

Would this be the early history that involves rampaging accidentally-engineered super-powered kids who have to be stopped with fleets of flying platforms led by a giant flying spinal column? Yeah, I know; -Muyo, -Universe and -inTokyo are obviously distinct continuities, and never the three shall meet; unless you ignore certain key details.

(And when you try, all the correspondences wham into a painful Jello blob, as at the end of "Timecop". <span style="ComicStoreGuy">"Worst use of the Blinovitch Limitation Effect, EVER!"</span>.)

[CFA-919 Downbelow-ish]
>I didn't think [JMS] needed justification; any large center
>of population will develop slums, homeless, and fugitives [...]

Perhaps, if there's room; I'm just skeptical that B5 would have enough unallocated cubic and "crawlspace" to accomodate them; and if the life-support budget is such that only senior officers get real-water showers, the excuse that "it costs too much to send them back" doesn't ring true. (In fact, the whole price-schedule for passengers-vs-sausage-freight seems off -- but that's bad-bureaucracy for you.) And there should be horrible lack-of-sanitation diseases sweeping through, too...



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Redneck
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Jun-24-01, 08:01 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: The (UF) Guide"
In response to message #0
 
   >I just wanted to mention the material in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the
>(UF) Galaxy thread is really awesome. Lot of fun to read.
>I probably just missed it somewhere, but I haven't seen any public
>mention of just how cool it is, and I wanted to make sure it was known
>that the work is appreciated B-)

Thanks very much! Let us (the various UF writers) know what you'd like to hear more background info about. There are a lot of subjects we can't do entries on just now (possible spoilers for planned stories) and others we'd just prefer not to go into detail on (Asgard, for instance), but I'm hoping some of my fellow creators will contribute entries of their own.

I'll be sticking fairly close to CFMF-related entries in the future, although another oddball one- like the Baseball entry- is not altogether out of the question.

Redneck

Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope


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Kylone
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Jul-19-01, 06:00 AM (EST)
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13. "RE: The (UF) Guide"
In response to message #0
 
   I thought the Guide entries were both entertaining and informative.
Superb job, Redneck.

You mentioned that there will probably be more of these entries, describing the background of UF. Are they going to be put up on their own section in the Grill eventually? I think the quality is certainly deserving.

Can't wait for more! (But I will manage--I always do. ;) )

--Kylone


A: "What is the difference between a fighter and a warrior?"
Q: "The warrior is defeated, especially at higher levels."


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