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Subject: "Just when I think..." Archived thread - Read only
 
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Gryphonadmin
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Aug-08-06, 02:16 PM (EDT)
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"Just when I think..."
 
   ... that Geoff Johns can't possibly surprise me any more, he does.

Now, if only I meant that in any kind of positive sense.

Jesus H. Delano Roosevelt Christ. There's so much stupid shit in there I can't even begin to analyze how it all sucks.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Just when I think... mdg1 Aug-08-06 1
  RE: Just when I think... StaticdashPulse Aug-08-06 2
     RE: Just when I think... Gryphonadmin Aug-08-06 3
         RE: Just when I think... Matrix Dragon Aug-08-06 4
             RE: Just when I think... Gryphonadmin Aug-08-06 6
                 RE: Just when I think... sideways Aug-08-06 13
                 RE: Just when I think... BZArchermoderator Aug-08-06 14
         RE: Just when I think... StaticdashPulse Aug-08-06 5
             RE: Just when I think... Gryphonadmin Aug-08-06 7
                 RE: Just when I think... StaticdashPulse Aug-08-06 8
                     RE: Just when I think... Gryphonadmin Aug-08-06 9
                         RE: Just when I think... StaticdashPulse Aug-08-06 10
                             RE: Just when I think... Gryphonadmin Aug-08-06 11
                             RE: Just when I think... Moonsword Aug-08-06 12
                     RE: Just when I think... Peter Eng Aug-09-06 18
                 RE: Just when I think... Ardaniel Aug-09-06 15
                     RE: Just when I think... Mephronmoderator Aug-09-06 16
                 RE: Just when I think... DocMuiteam Aug-09-06 17
                     RE: Just when I think... StaticdashPulse Aug-09-06 19
                     RE: Just when I think... trigger Aug-16-06 20
                         RE: Just when I think... Ardaniel Aug-16-06 21
                             RE: Just when I think... Gryphonadmin Aug-16-06 22

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mdg1
Member since Aug-25-04
1325 posts
Aug-08-06, 05:38 PM (EDT)
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1. "RE: Just when I think..."
In response to message #0
 
   You know, I remember when creator interviews actually included some information, as opposed to useless teases.

"I can't tell you the name of a new character! That would ruin the surprise!"

Given that this is Johns, anyone care to bet that all these mysetery characters WON'T be revealed in last-page splash panels?

Mario


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StaticdashPulse
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Aug-08-06, 10:01 PM (EDT)
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2. "RE: Just when I think..."
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-11 AT 03:09 PM (EST)
 
I got as far as "Cassie Cain? Yes!" and just had to stop. If there's anyone who should not be given the reigns of someone as complex and alien as Cassandra, it's someone who fans regard as a "working class" writer who treats superheroes like their 9-to-5 shmoes.

But you know, right now, I don't care. The idiot fans who read this drivel deserve what they fucking get. There's tons of fiction out there that does explore the adventurous, the eccentric, and the fantastic. If fans want the Justice League of NASCAR, they can have it.

I'm going to read a real book, by a real science fiction writer. If I wanted wrestling, I wouldn't be changing the television channel right now.


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Gryphonadmin
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Aug-08-06, 10:13 PM (EDT)
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3. "RE: Just when I think..."
In response to message #2
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-08-06 AT 10:15 PM (EDT)
 
>I got as far as "Cassie Cain? Yes!" and just had to stop.

... and it gets so much worse after that part, too. I mean, hell, that's right at the top of the article. :)

Admittedly, I may not be qualified to speak on this matter, since by the standards you've expressed in other writings of your own, I don't get Cassie right either.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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Matrix Dragon
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Aug-08-06, 10:31 PM (EDT)
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4. "RE: Just when I think..."
In response to message #3
 
   >>I got as far as "Cassie Cain? Yes!" and just had to stop.
>
>... and it gets so much worse after that part, too. I mean, hell,
>that's right at the top of the article. :)
>
>Admittedly, I may not be qualified to speak on this matter, since by
>the standards you've expressed in other writings of your own, I don't
>get Cassie right either.

You didn't turn her into a batshit insane killing machine that is taking over the league of assasains. You're much more qualified then anyone at DC these days.

Matrix Dragon


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Gryphonadmin
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Aug-08-06, 10:35 PM (EDT)
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6. "RE: Just when I think..."
In response to message #4
 
   >>Admittedly, I may not be qualified to speak on this matter, since by
>>the standards you've expressed in other writings of your own, I don't
>>get Cassie right either.
>
>You didn't turn her into a batshit insane killing machine that is
>taking over the league of assasains.

This is so, yes. I might, if writing her in an official capacity, have pretended to do that for an issue or so, but actually do it? No.

>You're much more qualified then anyone at DC these days.

Aw, you're sweet. I wasn't fishing for that, but thank you!

--G.
(spot the quote)
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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sideways
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Aug-08-06, 11:39 PM (EDT)
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13. "RE: Just when I think..."
In response to message #6
 
   >Aw, you're sweet. I wasn't fishing for that, but thank you!

Damn you, Patience.

Mike Thedford
College Town
Shopkeep at Large


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BZArchermoderator
Member since Nov-9-05
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Aug-08-06, 11:46 PM (EDT)
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14. "RE: Just when I think..."
In response to message #6
 
   Any last words before I spark it?

---------------------------
Jaymie "BZArcher" Wagner
She/They
@BZArcher / bzarcher at gmail
"Life is change. Let’s live.”


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StaticdashPulse
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Aug-08-06, 10:34 PM (EDT)
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5. "RE: Just when I think..."
In response to message #3
 
   LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-11 AT 03:10 PM (EST)
 
Well, heck, I'll be the first to admit I don't get Cass, I have an aspect of her that I like to explore and goose along, but given that she's a fictional, gestalt character I don't think there's any one way to "get" her. That said...

Based on the way you handle her in the UF-verse, you get her a lot better than I imagine Johns will. You follow the set standards of how she works nicely, without treating it like a disability. Given the way Johns gave the Android Hourman the bums rush, ditched the Black Canary/Doctor Mid-Nite relationship as quickly as possible, and turned Impulse into Wally West 2.0 (complete with loss of power angst), I'd put money on him writing Cass as a socially awkward person who makes a fool of herself more often than not.

Johns has this talent for stripping all the wonderful eccentricities of characters out, and turning them into either bitter old men or good little children. At least your Cass didn't lose who she was ("I lose more Batplanes that way." is much more Cass than Johns could ever grok) for the sake of pleasing people who are still bitter that Barbara Gordon isn't still Batgirl.

I'd wager money that within one arc, Cass will be turned into an apologetic warrior who's ashamed of her talents. And within three arcs, she'll either be off the team or sleeping with one of the members -- and "you won't believe how great she in in bed" will be brought up.

"Get" is a subjective term, I just don't want to be subjected to how Johns "gets" her. :)


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Gryphonadmin
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Aug-08-06, 10:45 PM (EDT)
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7. "RE: Just when I think..."
In response to message #5
 
   >ditched the Black
>Canary/Doctor Mid-Nite relationship as quickly as possible

As much as I hate to play devil's advocate, this was probably:

A) driven by external forces (namely the return of Ollie Queen); and
B) for the best, since Ollie and Dinah are one of the best couples in comics when they're handled right.

... and by "right" I mean "the way Kevin Smith handled them," not "the way Judd Winick screwed them the fuck up."

>I'd
>put money on him writing Cass as a socially awkward person who makes a
>fool of herself more often than not.

Yeah, I wouldn't take that bet. Mind you, she is, if not socially awkward, at least not socially clever. I wouldn't expect her to use the wrong fork at a dinner party or comically misapprehend some situation like, say, Starfire might, but I would expect her to cause uncomfortable silences in high-social-fiction circumstances just through her complete lack of pretense and intolerance of veneer and bullshit. That doesn't make a fool of her, though; if anything, it makes a fool of those around her.

>At least your Cass didn't lose who she was ("I lose
>more Batplanes that way." is much more Cass than Johns could ever
>grok)

Heh. I think my favorite line in that sequence, in terms of characterization, is "... little help here?" That whole scene is one of my top ten "gee, I'd like to see this animated" moments. I am rather proud of the way it captures her confidence - in her abilities and those of her teammates - and the way she never hesitates. If there's one quality I think defines Cass (beyond her pseudo-extrasensory ability, which is the part where I don't think my interpretation quite lines up with yours), it's the fact that she somehow manages to be completely without hesitation and almost completely without rashness at the same time.

>and "you won't believe how great she in in bed" will be
>brought up.

Well, to be fair, she probably would be, with a bit of practice. I mean, it's a logical assumption.

... What? Of course I consider these things. It's part of my job. Quit looking at me like that.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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StaticdashPulse
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Aug-08-06, 10:58 PM (EDT)
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8. "RE: Just when I think..."
In response to message #7
 
   LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-11 AT 03:10 PM (EST)
 
>I wouldn't expect her to use the wrong fork at a dinner party or comically
>misapprehend some situation like, say, Starfire might, but I would expect her
>to cause uncomfortable silences in high-social-fiction circumstances just
>through her complete lack of pretense and intolerance of veneer and bullshit.

Oh, right, but I do expect him to write her as Starfire. It may not be a fork they chuckle over, but my bet is that more Starfire-ish scenes get written than uncomfortable silences.


>(beyond her pseudo-extrasensory ability, which is the part where I don't think
>my interpretation quite lines up with yours)

Yeah, but I'm weird about that kind of stuff. I'd be more concerned for you if our views on that did line up. :)


>... What? Of course I consider these things. It's part of my job.
>Quit looking at me like that.

Well sure, but actually writing the story where she feels ostracized from the team because the guys keep looking at her oddly after the deed, that's completely uncalled for. And given how she reacted when she first encountered Superboy, having three or four teenage guys (and maybe a lesbian for the quota) watching her and thinking about it would be like everyone in the Justice League wearing Krptonite rings, being completely confused why Superman's horking up his lunch in the back.

And I am completely certain that will come up at some point.


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Gryphonadmin
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Aug-08-06, 11:07 PM (EDT)
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9. "RE: Just when I think..."
In response to message #8
 
   >being completely confused why Superman's horking up
>his lunch in the back.

"What's with Kent?" "Bad seafood."

>And I am completely certain that will come up at some point.

Oh, probably.

But I won't be there to see it.

Don't worry. I promise, when the time comes, the Chief won't gloat.

Kidding! That's a joke. I'm not sure they've actually met.

--G.
(besides, it's obviously going to be Kara. no! still kidding! I haven't considered the matter THAT extensively)
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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StaticdashPulse
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Aug-08-06, 11:13 PM (EDT)
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10. "RE: Just when I think..."
In response to message #9
 
   LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-11 AT 03:10 PM (EST)
 
[One little letter that means so much... --G.]

>Kidding! That's a joke. I'm not sure they've actually met.

The sword fought in one of the Raven stories, iirc. Besides, I know you're kidding. The Chief has a thing for blondes and redheads; I'm pretty sure brunettes are safe.


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Gryphonadmin
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Aug-08-06, 11:19 PM (EDT)
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11. "RE: Just when I think..."
In response to message #10
 
   >>Kidding! That's a joke. I'm not sure they've actually met.
>
>The sword fought in one of the Raven stories, iirc.

Oh, yeah, right. Jeez, how could I forget that? Sigh. It's a terrible thing, getting old.

>Besides, I know
>you're kidding. The Chief has a thing for blondes and redheads; I'm
>pretty sure brunettes are safe.

(Fixed that typo for you. :)

Hmm. Actually, the Chief's not so much into blondes. He's met a few that caught his eye, but he's not liable to notice a woman initially just because she's blonde.

As for brunettes being safe, I know at least one Vulcan and a Salusian criminalist who might argue that point with you.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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Moonsword
Member since Mar-15-22
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Aug-08-06, 11:23 PM (EDT)
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12. "RE: Just when I think..."
In response to message #10
 
   Uhm, yeah, right. *nonchalantly waves 8x10s of Domino and Skuld in front Static-Pulse's face*


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Peter Eng
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Aug-09-06, 01:26 PM (EDT)
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18. "RE: Just when I think..."
In response to message #8
 
   > And given how she reacted when
>she first encountered Superboy, having three or four teenage guys (and
>maybe a lesbian for the quota) watching her and thinking about
>it would be...

A perfect situation for a series of panels, in my opinion. Cass walks by each of the people staring at her, and blows them off.

"No."
"Forget it."
"Never."
"Not my type."

Peter Eng
--
I'm only a Charter Member because of the DCForum upgrade, and because there's no rank below "Clueless F!wit."


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Ardaniel
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Aug-09-06, 03:35 AM (EDT)
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15. "RE: Just when I think..."
In response to message #7
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-09-06 AT 03:37 AM (EDT)
 
>>ditched the Black
>>Canary/Doctor Mid-Nite relationship as quickly as possible
>
>As much as I hate to play devil's advocate, this was probably:
>
>A) driven by external forces (namely the return of Ollie Queen); and
>B) for the best, since Ollie and Dinah are one of the best couples in
>comics when they're handled right.
>
>... and by "right" I mean "the way Kevin Smith handled them," not "the
>way Judd Winick screwed them the fuck up."

1) Fuck Doctor Mid-Nite *right* in the ear. Ollie/ Dinah ftw.

2) Mike Grell *started* that screwing-the-fuck-up bit by having Ollie and Dinah *both* tortured and Dinah raped/ later found to be *infertile* due to damage from said rape and torture (in The Longbow Hunters). And shit, that wasn't even in the Brave New Age of Dark Helmet DiDio-- Winick just went down the same annoying road.

Ard Sumhenner
that Janice chick
Usual Suspect and general menace


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Mephronmoderator
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Aug-09-06, 09:49 AM (EDT)
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16. "RE: Just when I think..."
In response to message #15
 
   >1) Fuck Doctor Mid-Nite *right* in the ear. Ollie/ Dinah ftw.

I liked the Pieter/Dinah dynamic that started up, and I agree with Gryph: once they brought Ollie back from the dead, it was doomed.

>2) Mike Grell *started* that screwing-the-fuck-up bit by having Ollie
>and Dinah *both* tortured and Dinah raped/ later found to be
>*infertile* due to damage from said rape and torture (in The
>Longbow Hunters
). And shit, that wasn't even in the Brave New Age
>of Dark Helmet DiDio-- Winick just went down the same annoying road.

Mike Grell needs to be fucked in the ear. By Captain LongDongDrillDick. His entire Green Arrow thing was based on his own issues with getting old.

And Judd Winick has apparently forgotten (or had it sodomized out of him by Geoff Johns) that comics are not supposed to be one block of hate after another. How the hell the guy that created Barry Ween can screw up so much amazes me.

And going back up another conversational fork: Cassandra Cain had better be a twin/clone/under mind control. I mean, her one outright nasty act, impaling Lady Shiva from a hook over a Lazarus Pit, appears to have not taken. I liked Cass as a character, and am more than a little irritated that, after everything else, apparently no one of Bruce, Barbara or Tim went chasing after her to find out what had happened.

--
Geoff Depew - Darth Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Dark Lord of Sith Tech Support.
"And Remember! Google is your Friend!!"


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DocMuiteam
Member since Dec-13-05
92 posts
Aug-09-06, 10:51 AM (EDT)
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17. "RE: Just when I think..."
In response to message #7
 
   >>ditched the Black
>>Canary/Doctor Mid-Nite relationship as quickly as possible
>
>As much as I hate to play devil's advocate, this was probably:
>
>A) driven by external forces (namely the return of Ollie Queen); and
>B) for the best, since Ollie and Dinah are one of the best couples in
>comics when they're handled right.
>
>... and by "right" I mean "the way Kevin Smith handled them," not "the
>way Judd Winick screwed them the fuck up."

Ah, yes...I remember that Kevin Smith's run on GA piqued my interest, Meltzer's "Archer's Quest" was met with mild intrigue, and Winick's butchering left me just short of apoplectic outrage.

(In retrospect, the Archer's Quest arc was one of the few outings by Meltzer that would not inspire an involuntary twitching of the bird finger.)

Ollie came back from the dead for Dinah. Then Winick had him involved in an affair. I'm certain that apologists and defenders of Winick would state that stability does not sell or something to that degree. While I agree that some conflict is required for most plotlines, having it done in such a manner as to be blatantly out of character is, quite frankly, inexcusable.

"Dude, where have you been? Look around...affairs happen all the time! Comics are only reflecting what's happening in the real world!" people may tell me.

I would reply with an opinion that has been voiced elsewhere, that comics are entertainment. I am not entertained by that crap.

I list below a link to Peter David's insight on Didio's supposed thought processes, especially when it came to the late, lamented, Young Justice:

http://peterdavid.malibulist.com/archives/004625.html

For those of you who think that it's all about the bottom line, it's not necessarily true. It's certainly high on the list, but for Didio et al., it's more a case of them doing it because they can. As long as there are readers out there who think that this sort of tripe is "cool," they'll keep putting it out.

Will the bright, shiny days of heroism past ever return? I doubt it. After all, according to Meltzer, they weren't so shiny and they weren't really so heroic. Oh, and no Flash villain ever really reformed of his own free will back then.

If there is a fitting punishment for the perpetrators of this travesty, it should be having their arms break from patting themselves on the back too much. Mind you, that's the gentlest thing I can think of.

That's just my 2 cents.

--DocMui


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StaticdashPulse
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553 posts
Aug-09-06, 02:08 PM (EDT)
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19. "RE: Just when I think..."
In response to message #17
 
   LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-11 AT 03:10 PM (EST)
 
Man, I miss Young Justice... Wendy the Werewolf Stalker... Little Tom Servo heads in every book... Back when Bart and Kon were the buddy-jokers of the team... The Super-Cycle... Comics don't get much better than that.


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trigger
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1500 posts
Aug-16-06, 06:16 PM (EDT)
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20. "RE: Just when I think..."
In response to message #17
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-16-06 AT 06:18 PM (EDT)
 
>I would reply with an opinion that has been voiced elsewhere, that
>comics are entertainment. I am not entertained by that crap.

Wait, you want to be entertained? In a positive way? What the hell are you thinking?! <grin>


>For those of you who think that it's all about the bottom line, it's
>not necessarily true. It's certainly high on the list, but for Didio
>et al., it's more a case of them doing it because they can. As long
>as there are readers out there who think that this sort of tripe is
>"cool," they'll keep putting it out.

Um, don't you mean as long as there are readers who buy this tripe, they'll keep producing it?


>Will the bright, shiny days of heroism past ever return? I doubt it.
>After all, according to Meltzer, they weren't so shiny and they
>weren't really so heroic. Oh, and no Flash villain ever really
>reformed of his own free will back then.

That, my dear man, is why fan fiction and fan art are flourishing.

But to answer your question more seriously...

The audience comic books play to is a varied one - we need only look at this forum to see how varied. People are requesting complex story lines because it holds their interest (even when delivered in tiny serials that spend 5 pages on backstory). To hold that interest, comics must also be emotional. And what causes more emotion than being surprised and disgusted?

Well, yes, fine, love does. However, the complexity of love requires (a) emotional depth, (b) incredible story telling, and (c) and audience who picks up on both. As Alan Moore has demonstrated, 'tis easier to hate than love - and so comic books have gone. They will continue to go that away for sometime, which is why I've stopped wasting my time on the classics, and have gone for the odd one like Fables instead.

As a final note, I do see a ray of sunshine. Looking at Sam Rami's Spiderman, the recent renassiance of Doctor Who and the incredibly mainstream Superman Returns it is clear that there is a backlash coming. We can see this too, in the very simplified plot line of Batman Begins. Perhaps Marvel and DC will miss this (as they've missed so much of late) but people like happy or at least hopeful endings. They like it when their heroes make the hard decisions and when they don't give in to their baser emotons. People are starting to like heroes, not anti-heroes. So perhaps, happy days will be here again.

t.

edit: I suck at DCForum markup

Trigger Argee
trigger_argee@hotmail.com
Manon, Maccadon, Orado, etc.
Denton, never leave home without it.

"If we are marked to die, we are enough
To do our country loss; and if to live,
The fewer men, the greater the share of honour
God's will I pray thee wish not one man more" - Henry V, Act, IV Scene III


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Ardaniel
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Aug-16-06, 07:41 PM (EDT)
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21. "RE: Just when I think..."
In response to message #20
 
   >Um, don't you mean as long as there are readers who buy this tripe,
>they'll keep producing it?

Agreed. What comprises popular entertainment to most people is a *business* for the folks making it, and fans would do very well not to blur those lines.

*You* might worry about Ollie and Dinah. Mr. DiDio is worrying about getting his books into as many grubby hands as possible.

Ard Sumhenner
that Janice chick
Usual Suspect and general menace


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Gryphonadmin
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22374 posts
Aug-16-06, 07:45 PM (EDT)
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22. "RE: Just when I think..."
In response to message #21
 
   >*You* might worry about Ollie and Dinah. Mr. DiDio is worrying about
>getting his books into as many grubby hands as possible.

Indeed. It's not that Doc is wrong that they do it because they can get away with it?

It's just that "getting away with it" is measured in magazines sold, not, say, proportion of artistically disappointed readers posting to the DC Comics website.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Admin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/


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