Or for finding out who's paying attention to all those little references Gryph drops into things... ;)

-- Juniper
----------------------------------------
"Fac me cocleario vomere!"
-- Onatah, on NE:CiF MUSH

Huh.

'Metaspace'.

Psi Corps.

Mimbar.

_F**K_

So, when's the Shadow War gonna kick off?

Blessed be.
Nathan Baxter

Shadows? What Shadows? We already have The Shadow. Do we need more? ;)

Seriously, you will have to just wait and see. Remember that in UF, while characters, races, ships, etc. from other shows may end up in the series, they don't always match what happened in the actual show.

Patrick Chester
"...could you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

"What you usually see," he said quietly, "is my way of coping
with all that I see, all that I must do."

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
See what I'm selling on eBay

>
> "What you usually see," he said quietly, "is my way of coping
>with all that I see, all that I must do."
>

"Well, as answers go, short, to the point, utterly useless and totally consistent with what I've come to expect from a Vorlon."

Eric J. Heckathorn
ericjh@stargate.net

Good.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Heh heh heh...

He sees not the forest...

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
See what I'm selling on eBay

Well, I'm not really drawing any conclusions at this point. I'm waiting for more data. I just threw that quote in because it appealed to my sense of appropriateness.

Eric J. Heckathorn
ericjh@stargate.net

*snarf*

And, as for my drawing conclusions:

1.) "Once is happenstance, twice is coiincidence..."

2.) Da Big G has gone goody-goody, and one can only go so far on one-shot villians, especially in storytelling of this quality. The Shadows fit the bill to a T.

3.) I quote: "Foreshadowing, your key to fine literature..." I'll grant that I may be wrong about what the Psi Corps showing up means, but they're pretty well established as Shadow agents... and, by themselves, not nearly enough to make a credible threat to something with the WDF's resources and MO.

Heh. Well, right or rong, this'll be a reeeeaaallll fun ride.

Blessed be.
Nathan Baxter

I'm kinda hoping this was just a random quote because he wanted to sound cool, but it sounded like he was dropping a hint. A big one. (Glare) All I can hope is that you think in different circles than I think.

-Craig

Thinks about what Zoner said. Thinks about who he works for. Thinks about how the Shadows think.

Erk. Oh, I _hope_ not!

Blessed be.
Nathan Baxter

Okay, I've been digesting this for awhile.

Item: Everything else mentioned in this thread.

Item: In the "Weapons" thread on General, Zoner mentioned that his avatar is trying to tell people that "there's a storm coming".

Item: Waaaaaaaay back in the day, someone asked if the great evil that Lord Fahrvergnugen created the WDF to combat had arisen yet. Gryph's outside-of-story answer was "no."

I'm not saying anything more. I imagine that Gryph or Zoner or someone will make some kind of cryptic answer to this.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

Is it because gryph or zoner or someone will make some kind of cryptic
answer to this that you came to me?

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
See what I'm selling on eBay

Bastard.

*shatter*

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
"It's not easy being green." -- Kermit the Frog

Can you elaborate on that?

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
See what I'm selling on eBay

Oh, oh. I am broken.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

reflex cannon.

shadows...

Eiko Rose

shadows...

Megazone

shadows...

WR:TNG (Wedge Rats: The Next Generation)

poor shadows.

Ah, here I think you misjudge. Sure, the reflex cannon (as well as the PTC on the Concordia, the Big Mother Gun on the AT&T station and every other superweapon in the UF arsenal) could blow fleets of Shadow battlespiders into the next world, but the battlespiders are damned fast and agile, capable of staying out of the firing arcs.

Other than that, I'll agree with your assessment; the battle will be long & hard, but the Shadows are screwed in the end -- the Authors are arrayed against them, after all. ;)

>poor shadows.

Mr. Fnord: "So anyway, what do you want?"
--
The Jihad to Destroy Barney the Dinosaur
http://www.jihad.net/
"WE'RE STILL HERE, GODDAMMIT!"

Also remember that the Shadows have several joyful bits of nastiness in addition to 'fast ships'. Their ships are organic, alive, and breed. All they need is a mind to pilot and control their ships. In B5, telepaths were used. In this they COULD use Psi Corps people, and almost certainly are/will, but remember that many other races exist. Including races that emerge from biosculpt tanks.

Shadows have a few other neat abilities, including stealth technology and a method of accessing hyperspace that puts both classic hyperspace and this new metaspace to shame. They have hunter-killer races at their beck and call, and don't ever strike with their own ships except in the final blows of war. Final blows which do not currently need to be struck. There is no reason to assume that we will even -see- their black ships until they have grown obsolete and been replaced with newer ships, larger ships, to combat a larger enemy.

Assuming, of course, that Shadows will be here. There's still no proof of that, although the chances are extremely high.

-Craig

Remember, the WWWA is busier than ever... although the main characters live in peace, they live in the biggest, most well-defended military/government base ever created. And bad stuff -still- happens to them. It should be assumed that the rest of the universe is more chaotic, not less.

And if we were talking about the strict canon Shadows, I'd agree with you up to a point. But this is UF -- things are different here. Besides, the Shadows don't serve chaos like Zoner serves chaos, they serve evolution. They are the high priests of the Old God Darwin, sacrificing the weaker (in their opinion) races in order to improve the remainder. That's what they do, and they do it very well.

Did the century or so of the Exile and the Corporate War (not to mention Ragnarok, 'tho that took place out of sight from the rest of the galaxy) work to the advantage of the Shadows? Probably. Was it their plan? Probably not. Will they take advantage of it? That... remains to be seen.

Only the Authors can tell, and they won't. :)

>-Craig

Mr. Fnord, member of Shadow Minion's Union Local #1
--
The Jihad to Destroy Barney the Dinosaur
http://www.jihad.net/
"WE'RE STILL HERE, GODDAMMIT!"

-Griever
I for my part hope they will , them or those lovable
acid blooded xenomorphs .

And hey, everyone else, how do you think evolution happens? The weak die out. The Shadows are just accelerating the process. And, although I'm sure it's not the plot, I can see Megazone wanting the same goal... two hundred years ago.

-Craig

Which would have been fine, if they'd just started with w4r3z d00dz or some other expendable population band. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

>Hey, Megazone, you against evolution?

No. But since evolution isn't involved, what's that got to do with it?

>And hey, everyone else, how do you think evolution happens? The
>weak die out. The Shadows are just accelerating the process.

No they're not - they're manipulating the process, not accelerating it. They're picking favorites.

If I spread weed killer on my garden so the weeds all die and the flowers don't - that is not evolution. That's meddling. The weeds are actually, overall, the better evolutionary path - hardier breeds. But I've deliberately altered the environment to kill them off.

That's what the shadows do - they throw their weight behind races willing to serve them, and therefore try to tip the scales. Even if those races aren't the most advanced. Actually, they tend to pick the underdogs because those races tend to be more desperate for anything to put them ahead - no matter the cost.

Say you have a couple of primative tribes at war - and you go in and give one tribe machine guns and grenades. They'll probably win - but that's not evolution. Social darwinism is a bunch of bullshit, which has been shown again and again. It is pseudo-science for the ignorant masses.

Besides, even taking your view - if the Shadows lose, then they weren't the 'fittest', now were they?

If you're going to be a Social Darwinist, despite how discredited that view has been, then it comes down to who wins the war. Only a fool would just lay down and die.

The Vorlons do the same thing, just in a different way. Both races are far from impartial, they're both trying to *steer* evolution the way they want it to go by altering the rules of the game.

-MegaZone, megazone@megazone.org
Personal Homepage http://www.megazone.org/
Eyrie Productions FanFic http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
See what I'm selling on eBay

Which is why what that war really needed was Durandal and his pet cyborg suddenly turning up to screw with the mix. :)

--G.
[You can stay here and work on your tan if you like, but I'm leaving.]
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

can we at least be reassured you guys won't throw a W'rkncacnter into the mix?
Not that we're ever erally told what those do, other than massively lower property values, before getting chucked into suns :)

>No they're not - they're manipulating the process, not accelerating
>it. They're picking favorites.
>
>Say you have a couple of primative tribes at war - and you go in and
>give one tribe machine guns and grenades. They'll probably win - but
>that's not evolution. Social darwinism is a bunch of bullshit, which
>has been shown again and again. It is pseudo-science for the ignorant
>masses.

Yes, that's right, but as far as I recall, they were more or less only manipulating the politics into war. The only race they gave hand grenades and machine guns were the Centauri, and I can't even remember why...

As for 'social darwinism', I have no idea where you draw the line and call it darwinism, social darwinism, biological darwinism, or whatever. You may be completely right - it sounds like the point you're trying to make is that you can't have evolution from forced military upgrades and encounters. Which is kind of true.

But you can, even in the bastard version of evolution the Shadows go for, improve your 'favored' races, either by genetic or social manipulation. Or even cybernetics, as they did with the Psi Corps. While this may not count as evolution on your scale, they could very well justify it as such.

>Besides, even taking your view - if the Shadows lose, then they
>weren't the 'fittest', now were they?
>
>If you're going to be a Social Darwinist, despite how discredited that
>view has been, then it comes down to who wins the war. Only a fool
>would just lay down and die.

I don't recall the Shadows sitting there cursing about how unfair the world was... they may not have had the right idea, but they were hardly hypocrites.

-Craig

--->Edit fixed spelling: unfare->unfair. To not charge the Shadows for plunging the universe into war would have been unfare.

As we've seen in other UF episodes, those who plunge the universe into war get charged.. often, a pound of flesh. one of the more interesting pounds.

examples?

wellll... lesse.

Largo
The Butcher
Loki and Surtur

We've also seen some examples of known troublesome races get "converted" and live in peace or as part of the WDF et al. The bastard sons of Kilrah, a corps of Daleks, Decepticons, ICZER-2, a particular brunette fanatic assassin..