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Subject: "Spiffy new Weaponry thread" Archived thread - Read only
 
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Chris Redfield
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255 posts
Dec-19-01, 09:06 PM (EDT)
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"Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
 
   I thought the discussion on weapons from the Tiny Robo/Lesser Mazinger thread had some neat, and now it has a new topic relevant home.

>This is going from my rather sketchy knowledge of RGU, but we
>know Utena lost the Sword of Dios, and she's gained the
>Thorn of the Rose, another magical weapon crafted by someone
>who cares for her. It makes me wonder if the Thorn would be
>considered, for lack of a better word, a replacement for the Sword
>of Dios
...and what that means to Anthy when her and Utena find
>each other again, given where the Sword of Dios came from. And
>since the Thorn of the Rose has Corwin's magical fingerprints
>all over it, how that might interact in the relationship between the
>three of them...

Interesting... perhaps Utena will need to develop a dual weapon technique to balance the two ;)

>Thinking out loud. I'm pretty sure this is all rhetorical and I don't
>expect any kind of answers from the powers that be. Just interesting
>to consider.

Thinking is pretty neat stuff. I like it.

Elsewhere in the Robo/Mazinger thread, someone asked why Gryphon and Kate hadn't conscripted Corwin to make them weapons. My thought on that, Gryphon wouldn't replace the ancient Asagiri (sp?) blades under any circumstance outside of their destruction. In some of the worlds UF material has been borrowed from (Earthdawn in particular) swords that old, with that much history, would have quite a bit of magical power attached to them. They're even named!

As for Kate, I have the impression that she doesn't necessarilly feel that she merits such a weapon. She always seems to try and discount her own ability, and would probably feel that she couldn't do such a fine weapon justice. Her self image has been improving though, so she may get over that sort of hang up eventually.

-----------------------------------
Whoa! What IS it?!

-------------------------------------
Chris can't handle chemicals


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread Pangaro Dec-20-01 1
     RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread Laudre Dec-20-01 2
         RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread Gryphonadmin Dec-20-01 3
  RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread Peter Eng Dec-20-01 4
     RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread donnerjackadmin Dec-20-01 5
         RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread Kylone Dec-20-01 6
         RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread Matrix Dragon Dec-20-01 7
             RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread donnerjackadmin Dec-20-01 8
                 RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread Logan D Dec-20-01 9
                     RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread donnerjackadmin Dec-20-01 10
                         RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread zojojojo Dec-20-01 11
                             RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread donnerjackadmin Dec-21-01 13
                     RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread Juunanagou Dec-21-01 12
                         RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread drakensisthered Dec-21-01 14
                             RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread Gryphonadmin Dec-21-01 15
                                 RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread zojojojo Dec-21-01 16
                                     RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread Verbena Dec-24-01 18
                                         RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread zojojojo Dec-24-01 19
                                             RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread Verbena Dec-24-01 20
                                             RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread zojojojo Dec-24-01 21
                                             RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread Verbena Dec-24-01 22
                                             RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread Gryphonadmin Dec-24-01 23
                                             RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread Verbena Dec-24-01 24
                                             RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread Gryphonadmin Dec-24-01 25
                                             RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread Laudre Dec-25-01 26
                                             RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread Gryphonadmin Dec-25-01 27
                                             RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread zojojojo Dec-25-01 28
                                             RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread Gryphonadmin Dec-25-01 29
         RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread Ebony Dec-21-01 17

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Pangaro
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Dec-20-01, 00:37 AM (EDT)
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1. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #0
 
   >>This is going from my rather sketchy knowledge of RGU, but we
>>know Utena lost the Sword of Dios, and she's gained the
>>Thorn of the Rose, another magical weapon crafted by someone
>>who cares for her. It makes me wonder if the Thorn would be
>>considered, for lack of a better word, a replacement for the Sword
>>of Dios
...and what that means to Anthy when her and Utena find
>>each other again, given where the Sword of Dios came from. And
>>since the Thorn of the Rose has Corwin's magical fingerprints
>>all over it, how that might interact in the relationship between the
>>three of them...
>
>Interesting... perhaps Utena will need to develop a dual weapon
>technique to balance the two ;)

Or maybe they could fuse both swords into one. The Thorn of Dios!! Ok, I'll shut up now..

>power attached to them. They're even named!

Any weapon of any significance will have a name.

Pangaro, My friendsm the turtle has outruned him...
Paying attention to the wrong part of the speech since 1986...


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Laudre
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Dec-20-01, 00:44 AM (EDT)
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2. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #1
 
   >The Thorn of Dios!!

*blink blink*

... Anthy might like that, but I'm not sure how well Corwin would take Utena suddenly having that.

-- Sean --
...no further comment...
http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process


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Gryphonadmin
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22374 posts
Dec-20-01, 00:46 AM (EDT)
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3. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #2
 
   >>The Thorn of Dios!!
>
>*blink blink*
>
>... Anthy might like that, but I'm not sure how well Corwin would take
>Utena suddenly having that.

... OK, yellow card. Next followup to this subthread gets deleted and a nasty note goes to the person who posted it.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Peter Eng
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2045 posts
Dec-20-01, 01:05 AM (EDT)
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4. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #0
 
   >
>Elsewhere in the Robo/Mazinger thread, someone asked why Gryphon and
>Kate hadn't conscripted Corwin to make them weapons. My thought on
>that, Gryphon wouldn't replace the ancient Asagiri (sp?) blades under
>any circumstance outside of their destruction.
>

IOW, he wouldn't replace them.

IMO, the only way that the Asagiri blades could be destroyed at this point is to separate them from Gryphon by stealth. Considering that he's had a century (give or take) to learn to sleep lightly, it would take an amazing thief to pull this off.

If UF-Gryphon is awake, the blades are effectively indestructible, short of shooting Gryph in the back with a turbolaser. Yes, I mean a Star Destroyer's armament. Destroy the swords before Gryphon draws them, or they are indestructible, as per Blade of the Inviolate Soul.

>
>In some of the worlds
>UF material has been borrowed from (Earthdawn in particular) swords
>that old, with that much history, would have quite a bit of magical
>power attached to them. They're even named!
>

And even if they are plain steel, easily duplicated with a replicator, they have sentimental value which makes them irreplaceable.

>
>As for Kate, I have the impression that she doesn't necessarilly feel
>that she merits such a weapon.
>

It's also possible that she views magically enhanced weapons in the same way that firearms instructors view laser targeting systems - as a crutch that interferes with real learning. A student who learns the weapon without the enhancements will be able to function with or without them.

Now that she's officially a master, she might feel that a magical sword is acceptable...or she might not.

>
>She always seems to try and discount
>her own ability, and would probably feel that she couldn't do such a
>fine weapon justice. Her self image has been improving though, so she
>may get over that sort of hang up eventually.
>

I don't remember her discounting her own ability more than once. And Gryphon stopped that quickly. IMO, that is a good thing. A warrior should neither overestimate nor underestimate her abilities. Encouraging an opponent to underestimate her abilities, however, is a very good idea.

Peter Eng

Peter Eng
--
Insert humorous comment here.


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donnerjackadmin
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Dec-20-01, 03:00 AM (EDT)
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5. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #4
 
   >It's also possible that she views magically enhanced weapons in the
>same way that firearms instructors view laser targeting systems - as a
>crutch that interferes with real learning. A student who learns the
>weapon without the enhancements will be able to function with or
>without them.

Now that's an interesting point of view. I can certainly see a lot of merit in it. But, if a weapon made by Corwin is simply a sword that is more responsive to it's wielder than a plain steel sword, and has some other nifty features, like not letting other people use it, would that be a crutch on the same order as a laser sight? Kei and Yuri's weapons, for example, will not miss their target. But since their owners are expert marksman at the very least, it's not really much of a problem. As you say, perhaps now that Kate's a master, she wouldn't mind having a sword that gave her some advantages over plain steel.

>Now that she's officially a master, she might feel that a magical
>sword is acceptable...or she might not.

I think that one of the major reasons she's as fond of her zaitoichi as she is lies in the fact that it's concealed. Not only does that give her an element of surprise (in some situations), but it also keeps random people on the street from staring at her because she's wearing a wacking great sword. She mentioned that when Utena received the Thorn of the Rose originally, but Utena obviously enjoys being noticed, and it's not like she could be inconspicuous if she tried anyway. She's got bright pink hair for god's sake.

>I don't remember her discounting her own ability more than once. And
>Gryphon stopped that quickly. IMO, that is a good thing. A warrior
>should neither overestimate nor underestimate her abilities.
>Encouraging an opponent to underestimate her abilities, however, is a
>very good idea.

She seems reasonably humble at least, I guess that's a part of her training, but she's also confident, and obviously extraordinarily capable


Donnerjack
--
reality@peoplearestrange.net
BOFH to www.astralstudios.com


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Kylone
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Dec-20-01, 11:50 AM (EDT)
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6. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #5
 
   >>Now that she's officially a master, she might feel that a magical
>>sword is acceptable...or she might not.
>
>I think that one of the major reasons she's as fond of her zaitoichi
>as she is lies in the fact that it's concealed. Not only does that
>give her an element of surprise (in some situations), but it also
>keeps random people on the street from staring at her because she's
>wearing a wacking great sword. She mentioned that when Utena received
>the Thorn of the Rose originally, but Utena obviously enjoys being
>noticed, and it's not like she could be inconspicuous if she tried
>anyway. She's got bright pink hair for god's sake.

There was a moment where Kate questioned that, at the spring formal in Roses in Spring Time. Er, here:


Against the sword-bedecked panoply of her followers, Kate looked
slightly out of place with the unobtrusive black-stained length of
Kotetsu no Sasayaki, her zatoichi. The blade had been designed
-not- to look like a weapon, after all. Perhaps, she mused to
herself, it's time I broke down and asked Dad for a proper daisho
after all.

Her weapon is only inconspicious to the general public. It seems that anyone who knows that she practices the K-ryuu also knows that she carries a zatoichi, including the Psi Corps. The question then seems to be whether she wants her mastery to be general knowledge, like her musical skill.

Of course, if she decides to get a daisho, there's the question of who will make it...

--Chris
With all of this character analysis I'm doing, maybe I sould start that L5R fanfic I've been tossing around...

"What is the difference between a fighter and a warrior?"
"The warrior is (easily) defeated, especially at higher levels."


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Matrix Dragon
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1893 posts
Dec-20-01, 06:51 PM (EDT)
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7. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #5
 
   >>It's also possible that she views magically enhanced weapons in the
>>same way that firearms instructors view laser targeting systems - as a
>>crutch that interferes with real learning. A student who learns the
>>weapon without the enhancements will be able to function with or
>>without them.
>
>Now that's an interesting point of view. I can certainly see a lot of
>merit in it. But, if a weapon made by Corwin is simply a sword that
>is more responsive to it's wielder than a plain steel sword, and has
>some other nifty features, like not letting other people use it, would
>that be a crutch on the same order as a laser sight? Kei and Yuri's
>weapons, for example, will not miss their target. But since their
>owners are expert marksman at the very least, it's not really much of
>a problem. As you say, perhaps now that Kate's a master, she wouldn't
>mind having a sword that gave her some advantages over plain steel.

Having advantages with weaponry is always a bonus. However, far too many people make the mistake of getting used to those advantages. So when something happens and they have to use a different weapon, they're at quite a large disadvantage. I doubt that Kate would make such a mistake. After all, she's been trained by her father, one of the best swordsmen in the galaxy. But she might be wary of using such advantages until she's certain of her skill. If she does ask Corwin to make her a blade, now would be the most likely time.

Matrix Dragon
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." --J.R.R. Tolkien
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for obvious reasons." -Matrix Dragon

Matrix Dragon, J. Random Nutter


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donnerjackadmin
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Dec-20-01, 07:33 PM (EDT)
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8. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #7
 
   LAST EDITED ON Dec-20-01 AT 07:34 PM (EST)

Edit for typo

>Having advantages with weaponry is always a bonus. However, far too
>many people make the mistake of getting used to those advantages. So
>when something happens and they have to use a different weapon,
>they're at quite a large disadvantage. I doubt that Kate would make
>such a mistake. After all, she's been trained by her father, one of
>the best swordsmen in the galaxy. But she might be wary of using such
>advantages until she's certain of her skill. If she does ask Corwin to
>make her a blade, now would be the most likely time.

I'm sure that if she were to get a weapon that accorded her some advantages, she would still practice with plain steel, just to keep her edge. She seems very conscientous about her training, and I doubt she would ever let it slip far enough for her to be at a disadvantage with a different weapon. Likewise, I'm sure Kei and Yuri still practice with regular weapons to keep their edge. The comments above made me think of the special abilities that their gifts had, and made me wonder, but I doubt they'd fall out of practice. On a side note, what is a daisho? I've heard the word a couple times, and I've been able to puzzle out most of the other Japanese terms, but that one eludes me. Could someone enlighten me?


Donnerjack
--
reality@peoplearestrange.net
BOFH to www.astralstudios.com
Who now thinks he should have taken Japanese in school...


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Logan D
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Dec-20-01, 07:48 PM (EDT)
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9. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #8
 
   >On a side note,
>what is a daisho? I've heard the word a couple times, and I've been
>able to puzzle out most of the other Japanese terms, but that one
>eludes me. Could someone enlighten me?

Unless I'm mistaken, a Daisho is the Samurai's Katana and Wakisashi (short sword) as a set. Particularly when the two swords were originally made as a matched pair.

-Logan
-------------------------------------
"I need to selectively edit my mental images.
Please hand me a fork."

William K. "Bushmaster" Bushway
-------------------------------------


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donnerjackadmin
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Dec-20-01, 08:00 PM (EDT)
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10. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #9
 
   >Unless I'm mistaken, a Daisho is the Samurai's Katana and Wakisashi
>(short sword) as a set. Particularly when the two swords were
>originally made as a matched pair.

Ah, cool. Is the tanto included in that set, or is it just the katana and wakisashi?

Donnerjack
--
reality@peoplearestrange.net
BOFH to www.astralstudios.com


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zojojojo
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631 posts
Dec-20-01, 11:16 PM (EDT)
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11. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #10
 
   >>Unless I'm mistaken, a Daisho is the Samurai's Katana and Wakisashi
>>(short sword) as a set. Particularly when the two swords were
>>originally made as a matched pair.
>
>Ah, cool. Is the tanto included in that set, or is it just the katana
>and wakisashi?


A daisho is specifically the two swords that a samurai wears. Although it's quite possible to have a matching set of blades ranging in size from tanto to nodachi, it's just the katana and the wakizashi that are the daisho.... Like a nice Italian suit is just the jacket and pants, even though you can have a shirt, vest and overcoat tailored to match... :)

-Z

---
We are Dyslexic of Borg. Your ass will be laminated.

-Z


---
Remember kids: guns make you stupid, duct tape makes you smart.


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donnerjackadmin
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Dec-21-01, 01:45 AM (EDT)
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13. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #11
 
   >A daisho is specifically the two swords that a samurai wears. Although
>it's quite possible to have a matching set of blades ranging in size
>from tanto to nodachi, it's just the katana and the wakizashi that are
>the daisho.... Like a nice Italian suit is just the jacket and pants,
>even though you can have a shirt, vest and overcoat tailored to
>match... :)

Gotcha, thanks for the information, and the analogy. :-) That definitely clears up a bit from the stories. Even though I love how Gryphon, et al. add in those Japanese terms, occasionally it makes it very confusing if you can't figure out the meaning from context.


Donnerjack
--
reality@peoplearestrange.net
BOFH to www.astralstudios.com


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Juunanagou
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Dec-21-01, 01:35 AM (EDT)
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12. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #9
 
   >
>Unless I'm mistaken, a Daisho is the Samurai's Katana and Wakisashi
>(short sword) as a set. Particularly when the two swords were
>originally made as a matched pair.

That's a pretty good answer, to start with :)

If I can recall my Japanese History correctly, the nodachi was the typically-carried sword. Hopefully, my memory is working correctly, and I won't say anything that's bass-ackwards (again).

The mystique of japanese sword steel, while good, doesn't really live up to it's legend. Generally, there were two kinds of samurai: skilled samurai and dead samurai. This was mostly due to the japanese sword itself; the steel was both hard and brittle. In general, collectors of japanese swords have noticed that old japanese swords come in two variaties: in near perfect condition and broken beyond repair. It's a fairly rare thing to find a japanese sword that has been used to cut improperly (by so much as turning the angle of the blade less than 15 degrees on a cut) and still be usable for anything beyond display.

T.H.


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drakensisthered
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Dec-21-01, 06:16 AM (EDT)
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14. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #12
 
   >>
>>Unless I'm mistaken, a Daisho is the Samurai's Katana and Wakisashi
>>(short sword) as a set. Particularly when the two swords were
>>originally made as a matched pair.
>
>That's a pretty good answer, to start with :)
>
>If I can recall my Japanese History correctly, the nodachi was the
>typically-carried sword. Hopefully, my memory is working correctly,
>and I won't say anything that's bass-ackwards (again).

I think the nodachi was the next step up in size from a katana. I don't know how common it was to carry them, but from what I saw at the Royal Armouries it's long enough to be fairly awkward.

>The mystique of japanese sword steel, while good, doesn't really live
>up to it's legend. Generally, there were two kinds of samurai:
>skilled samurai and dead samurai. This was mostly due to the japanese
>sword itself; the steel was both hard and brittle. In general,
>collectors of japanese swords have noticed that old japanese swords
>come in two variaties: in near perfect condition and broken beyond
>repair. It's a fairly rare thing to find a japanese sword that has
>been used to cut improperly (by so much as turning the angle of the
>blade less than 15 degrees on a cut) and still be usable for anything
>beyond display.
>
>T.H.


drakensisthered

SHE'S the 'Pirate Killer,' 'Klingon Spooker,' 'Big Trouble in a Little Package,' 'She Who Must be Avoided,' and 'Go Around the Other Side of the Nebula.' I'm the dumb blonde comic relief.


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Gryphonadmin
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Dec-21-01, 06:36 AM (EDT)
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15. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #14
 
   >I think the nodachi was the next step up in size from a katana. I
>don't know how common it was to carry them, but from what I saw at the
>Royal Armouries it's long enough to be fairly awkward.

Yeah - the one guy who's basically John Belushi's Samurai Dry Cleaner character in Seven Samurai has one, and it looks like it's a big pain in the keister to maneuver. That guy gets away with it because he's a total nutcase anyway. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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zojojojo
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631 posts
Dec-21-01, 09:29 AM (EDT)
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16. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #15
 
   >>I think the nodachi was the next step up in size from a katana. I
>>don't know how common it was to carry them, but from what I saw at the
>>Royal Armouries it's long enough to be fairly awkward.
>
>Yeah - the one guy who's basically John Belushi's Samurai Dry Cleaner
>character in Seven Samurai has one, and it looks like it's a
>big pain in the keister to maneuver. That guy gets away with it
>because he's a total nutcase anyway. :)


If I'm remembering things right, the nodachi filled the same role as the two handed sword in Europe - the footman's defense against cavalry... Much like the bazooka, it can be used against other footmen with devastating effect, but it's such a pain in the ass that if you're not an expert, you're more likely to injure yourself than the other guy...


-Z, who could be making this stuff up for all he knows...

---
We are Dyslexic of Borg. Your ass will be laminated.

-Z


---
Remember kids: guns make you stupid, duct tape makes you smart.


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Verbena
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1107 posts
Dec-24-01, 10:09 AM (EDT)
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18. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #16
 
   >>>I think the nodachi was the next step up in size from a katana. I
>>>don't know how common it was to carry them, but from what I saw at the
>>>Royal Armouries it's long enough to be fairly awkward.
>>
>>Yeah - the one guy who's basically John Belushi's Samurai Dry Cleaner
>>character in Seven Samurai has one, and it looks like it's a
>>big pain in the keister to maneuver. That guy gets away with it
>>because he's a total nutcase anyway. :)
>
>
>If I'm remembering things right, the nodachi filled the same role as
>the two handed sword in Europe - the footman's defense against
>cavalry... Much like the bazooka, it can be used against other footmen
>with devastating effect, but it's such a pain in the ass that if
>you're not an expert, you're more likely to injure yourself than the
>other guy...

Now, understand that I'm not professor emeritus in Japanese warfare history. The only credentials I have is a every-other-weekly Legend of the Five Rings game played for two years, and a read-through of the Book of Five Rings. =)

That said, the reason the word daisho is used so much is because the vast majority of the time, samurai (or bushi, to use their own term for themselves) needed to carry around both swords all the time. Other weapons, such as the tetsubo, nodachi, and yari, were used primarily in times of war. (The yari was, I believe, the most commonly used, a variety of spear.) But the daisho had to be carried every minute of every day, thus the one name for both weapons at once. The katana had to be carried for two reasons, IIRC...one was, it was usually the ancestral blade of the samurai's particular family. It was passed from father to son, and breaking or losing it was a source of irrevocable shame. The other reason, of course, was to be able to answer a challenge at any time. Warrior traditions over the world tend to require students to be bale to defend themselves at any time, presumably to prevent them from dying easily and shaming the school. While the wakizashi is used for seppuku, true, its real purpose was to prove the wielder was, in fact, samurai. Anyone with the (lots of) money necessary could buy a katana to defend themselves, and I personally find it highly doubtful that every single katana ever forged was of the high quality, thousands-of-folds, takes-a-year-to-forge variety. But the wakizashi proved to everyone around that you were samurai, and able to take advantage of all the benefits your class offered. It was forbidden, punishable by immediate death, to carry one if you weren't.

If there is -anything- wrong with this, please let me know. I want to be right about this. =)

--"I invoke the rites of fiery Muspelheim, and give thy soul up to the inferno's embrace..."

------
Authors of our fates
Orchestrate our fall from grace
Poorest players on the stage
Our defiance drives us straight to the edge


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zojojojo
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631 posts
Dec-24-01, 10:46 AM (EDT)
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19. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #18
 
   >That said, the reason the word daisho is used so much is because the
>vast majority of the time, samurai (or bushi, to use their own term
>for themselves) needed to carry around both swords all the time. Other
>weapons, such as the tetsubo, nodachi, and yari, were used primarily
>in times of war. (The yari was, I believe, the most commonly used, a
>variety of spear.) But the daisho had to be carried every minute of
>every day, thus the one name for both weapons at once.

I'm not sure that it had to be carried every waking moment... in fact, there were times when it was specifically forbidden from being worn (in the presence of the Emperor, for one), but the daisho was 'the mark of the samurai'...

<snip>
>While the wakizashi is used for seppuku, true, its real purpose was to
>prove the wielder was, in fact, samurai. Anyone with the (lots of)

While the wakizashi, or any blade, could be used for seppuku, it generally wasn't unless there was no better choice. After all, the blade is more than a foot long... There was a school of swordsmanship that used the wakizashi in the left hand, but aside from that, I think it was simply a badge of a samurai and a hold-out weapon...

>money necessary could buy a katana to defend themselves, and I
>personally find it highly doubtful that every single katana ever
>forged was of the high quality, thousands-of-folds,
>takes-a-year-to-forge variety.

Quite so... Like everything else, the is the 'mass market' version and the artisan version, with a price difference to match. All of them were folded and so forth, but some were works of art unto themselves.

Think of the difference between a portrait painted by Gissepe of Naples (who?) and Leonardo Da Vinci. Both show what the person looks like, but one is of obviously supperiour quality...


-Z

---
We are Dyslexic of Borg. Your ass will be laminated.

-Z


---
Remember kids: guns make you stupid, duct tape makes you smart.


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Verbena
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1107 posts
Dec-24-01, 11:14 AM (EDT)
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20. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #19
 
   >>That said, the reason the word daisho is used so much is because the
>>vast majority of the time, samurai (or bushi, to use their own term
>>for themselves) needed to carry around both swords all the time. Other
>>weapons, such as the tetsubo, nodachi, and yari, were used primarily
>>in times of war. (The yari was, I believe, the most commonly used, a
>>variety of spear.) But the daisho had to be carried every minute of
>>every day, thus the one name for both weapons at once.
>
>I'm not sure that it had to be carried every waking moment... in fact,
>there were times when it was specifically forbidden from being worn
>(in the presence of the Emperor, for one), but the daisho was 'the
>mark of the samurai'...

That only makes sense. =)

>
><snip>
>>While the wakizashi is used for seppuku, true, its real purpose was to
>>prove the wielder was, in fact, samurai. Anyone with the (lots of)
>
>While the wakizashi, or any blade, could be used for seppuku, it
>generally wasn't unless there was no better choice. After all, the
>blade is more than a foot long... There was a school of swordsmanship
>that used the wakizashi in the left hand, but aside from that, I think
>it was simply a badge of a samurai and a hold-out weapon...

Hrm...not so sure about this. If not that, then what -was- used? I wouldn't think a tanto long or symbolic enough for the task, and most period Japanese weapons were a lot longer than a wakazashi, or blunt, or both. I seem to recall in Shogun one daimyo who committed seppuku with his wakazashi, wrapped in silk. Of course, I was also given to understand they drugged themselves up pretty heavily before this, which wasn't in the miniseries, so hey. =)


>
>>money necessary could buy a katana to defend themselves, and I
>>personally find it highly doubtful that every single katana ever
>>forged was of the high quality, thousands-of-folds,
>>takes-a-year-to-forge variety.
>
>Quite so... Like everything else, the is the 'mass market' version and
>the artisan version, with a price difference to match. All of them
>were folded and so forth, but some were works of art unto themselves.
>
>Think of the difference between a portrait painted by Gissepe of
>Naples (who?) and Leonardo Da Vinci. Both show what the person looks
>like, but one is of obviously supperiour quality...

*nodnod* Of course. I was trying to imply this. It came from no source that I knew of, but it was the only logical way.


--"I invoke the rites of fiery Muspelheim, and give thy soul up to the inferno's embrace..."

------
Authors of our fates
Orchestrate our fall from grace
Poorest players on the stage
Our defiance drives us straight to the edge


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zojojojo
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631 posts
Dec-24-01, 11:41 AM (EDT)
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21. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #20
 
   >><snip>
>>>While the wakizashi is used for seppuku, true, its real purpose was to
>>>prove the wielder was, in fact, samurai. Anyone with the (lots of)
>>
>>While the wakizashi, or any blade, could be used for seppuku, it
>>generally wasn't unless there was no better choice. After all, the
>>blade is more than a foot long... There was a school of swordsmanship
>>that used the wakizashi in the left hand, but aside from that, I think
>>it was simply a badge of a samurai and a hold-out weapon...
>
>Hrm...not so sure about this. If not that, then what -was- used? I
>wouldn't think a tanto long or symbolic enough for the task, and most
>period Japanese weapons were a lot longer than a wakazashi, or blunt,
>or both. I seem to recall in Shogun one daimyo who committed seppuku
>with his wakazashi, wrapped in silk. Of course, I was also given to
>understand they drugged themselves up pretty heavily before this,
>which wasn't in the miniseries, so hey. =)

A tanto is plenty long enough. After all, all they're doing is slicing open their abdomen... you can do that with a sufficiently sharp Swiss Army knife. Seriously, I think that a special tanto is what was used. It's special in that it's a particularly nice blade that's Daver-sharp and has been ritually cleaned.

Since neither of us is a scholar on Japanese suicide rites, we could probably debate this for ages and decide on the wrong thing in the end ;) ...

What say we call this one finished and move on to a debate of when someone who uses an exotic weapon, like a trident or something, will join the Duelists :)


-Z, who saw and read Shogun too ;)

---
We are Dyslexic of Borg. Your ass will be laminated.

-Z


---
Remember kids: guns make you stupid, duct tape makes you smart.


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Verbena
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1107 posts
Dec-24-01, 09:03 PM (EDT)
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22. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #21
 
   >>><snip>
>>>>While the wakizashi is used for seppuku, true, its real purpose was to
>>>>prove the wielder was, in fact, samurai. Anyone with the (lots of)
>>>
>>>While the wakizashi, or any blade, could be used for seppuku, it
>>>generally wasn't unless there was no better choice. After all, the
>>>blade is more than a foot long... There was a school of swordsmanship
>>>that used the wakizashi in the left hand, but aside from that, I think
>>>it was simply a badge of a samurai and a hold-out weapon...
>>
>>Hrm...not so sure about this. If not that, then what -was- used? I
>>wouldn't think a tanto long or symbolic enough for the task, and most
>>period Japanese weapons were a lot longer than a wakazashi, or blunt,
>>or both. I seem to recall in Shogun one daimyo who committed seppuku
>>with his wakazashi, wrapped in silk. Of course, I was also given to
>>understand they drugged themselves up pretty heavily before this,
>>which wasn't in the miniseries, so hey. =)
>
>A tanto is plenty long enough. After all, all they're doing is slicing
>open their abdomen... you can do that with a sufficiently sharp Swiss
>Army knife. Seriously, I think that a special tanto is what was used.
>It's special in that it's a particularly nice blade that's Daver-sharp
>and has been ritually cleaned.
>
>Since neither of us is a scholar on Japanese suicide rites, we could
>probably debate this for ages and decide on the wrong thing in the end
>;) ...
>
>What say we call this one finished and move on to a debate of when
>someone who uses an exotic weapon, like a trident or something, will
>join the Duelists :)

Sounds like an excellent idea. A trident might be a bit much (I can just imagine someone using a polearm against a sword and trying to be dexterous enough to win!) but I could see a spear, paired daggers, paired tonfa...plenty of possibilities to spice things up a bit. (On second thought, what about a mace? The various mentions of Gudrun have me curious, as to both herself and the weapon. Light, scepter-like? Flanged Gothic baby rattle? Inquiring minds want to know.)

As a side note, I'm curious as to exactly how Liza's blade is designed. I mean, I'm well aware of what katana and scimitars are both like, but I don't know which parts of the blade come from where. Without that, I can't envision it. Is there someone here with a notion in mind?


--"I invoke the rites of fiery Muspelheim, and give thy soul up to the inferno's embrace..."

------
Authors of our fates
Orchestrate our fall from grace
Poorest players on the stage
Our defiance drives us straight to the edge


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Gryphonadmin
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22374 posts
Dec-24-01, 09:14 PM (EDT)
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23. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #22
 
   >second thought, what about a mace? The various mentions of Gudrun have
>me curious, as to both herself and the weapon. Light, scepter-like?
>Flanged Gothic baby rattle? Inquiring minds want to know.)

Cast iron candlepin bowling ball with spikes on hardwood shaft. Not subtle, and certainly not suitable for dueling. Much like Gudrun. :)

>As a side note, I'm curious as to exactly how Liza's blade is
>designed. I mean, I'm well aware of what katana and scimitars are both
>like, but I don't know which parts of the blade come from where.

It's mainly built along a katana's lines, but the blade is somewhat wider and comes to a nastier point with a short top edge cut back from it. The grip is like a katana's hand-and-a-half grip, but the guard is a bar instead of a tsuba, and there's a pommel stone à la some Western swords.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Verbena
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1107 posts
Dec-24-01, 10:13 PM (EDT)
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24. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #23
 
   >>second thought, what about a mace? The various mentions of Gudrun have
>>me curious, as to both herself and the weapon. Light, scepter-like?
>>Flanged Gothic baby rattle? Inquiring minds want to know.)
>
>Cast iron candlepin bowling ball with spikes on hardwood shaft. Not
>subtle, and certainly not suitable for dueling. Much like Gudrun. :)

Thanks! And all I have to say is...um..ow. Very much ow. I can see it now. "You want me to poke that rose...and not shatter his breastbone? In case you hadn't noticed, 'pulling punches' just isn't in this thing's vocabulary."

>
>>As a side note, I'm curious as to exactly how Liza's blade is
>>designed. I mean, I'm well aware of what katana and scimitars are both
>>like, but I don't know which parts of the blade come from where.
>
>It's mainly built along a katana's lines, but the blade is somewhat
>wider and comes to a nastier point with a short top edge cut back from
>it. The grip is like a katana's hand-and-a-half grip, but the guard
>is a bar instead of a tsuba, and there's a pommel stone à la
>some Western swords.

Again, thanks. Much clearer notion, now.

--"I invoke the rites of fiery Muspelheim, and give thy soul up to the inferno's embrace..."

------
Authors of our fates
Orchestrate our fall from grace
Poorest players on the stage
Our defiance drives us straight to the edge


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Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
22374 posts
Dec-24-01, 10:30 PM (EDT)
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25. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #24
 
   LAST EDITED ON Dec-24-01 AT 10:30 PM (EST)

>>Cast iron candlepin bowling ball with spikes on hardwood shaft. Not
>>subtle, and certainly not suitable for dueling. Much like Gudrun. :)
>
>Thanks! And all I have to say is...um..ow. Very much ow. I can see it
>now. "You want me to poke that rose...and not shatter his breastbone?
>In case you hadn't noticed, 'pulling punches' just isn't in this
>thing's vocabulary."

Yeah... Gudrun's mace, much like its owner, is built for shattering giant skulls and crushing Underdwarf armor, not fiddly artistic pursuits like dueling. Gudrun Truemace is the least subtle of the Valkyrie, and subscribes to what Chris Claremont used to call "the old X-Men spirit", which is perhaps best summed up, "Never use a door if there's a perfectly good wall next to it." :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Laudre
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Dec-25-01, 01:39 AM (EDT)
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26. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #23
 
   >It's mainly built along a katana's lines, but the blade is somewhat
>wider and comes to a nastier point with a short top edge cut back from
>it. The grip is like a katana's hand-and-a-half grip, but the guard
>is a bar instead of a tsuba, and there's a pommel stone à la
>some Western swords.

Sounds rather like the heron-mark swords from The Wheel of Time. And, for the record, that's a compliment, as that particular sword design is one of the things from that series which I like without qualification.

-- Sean --

http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process


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Gryphonadmin
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22374 posts
Dec-25-01, 01:45 AM (EDT)
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27. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #26
 
   >>It's mainly built along a katana's lines, but the blade is somewhat
>>wider and comes to a nastier point with a short top edge cut back from
>>it. The grip is like a katana's hand-and-a-half grip, but the guard
>>is a bar instead of a tsuba, and there's a pommel stone à la
>>some Western swords.
>
>Sounds rather like the heron-mark swords from The Wheel of
>Time
. And, for the record, that's a compliment, as that
>particular sword design is one of the things from that series which I
>like without qualification.

I've seen those (I haven't read the books, but I get the Museum Replicas catalog); not too far off, but the blade I have in mind has more of a scimitar or slim falchion backcurve to it. (As for the furniture, I refer the reader fortunate enough to own the Working Designs official strategy guide for Lunar 2: Eternal Blue Complete to page 11.)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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zojojojo
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631 posts
Dec-25-01, 11:23 AM (EDT)
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28. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #27
 
   >I've seen those (I haven't read the books, but I get the Museum
>Replicas catalog); not too far off, but the blade I have in mind has
>more of a scimitar or slim falchion backcurve to it. (As for the
>furniture, I refer the reader fortunate enough to own the Working
>Designs official strategy guide for Lunar 2: Eternal Blue
>Complete
to page 11.)


Are you thinking something along the lines of the Hellstorm from that catalogue? Cause's that's what I see whe I hear of a katana-scimitar cross-breed...


-Z

---
We are Dyslexic of Borg. Your ass will be laminated.

-Z


---
Remember kids: guns make you stupid, duct tape makes you smart.


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Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
22374 posts
Dec-25-01, 03:12 PM (EDT)
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29. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #28
 
   >>I've seen those (I haven't read the books, but I get the Museum
>>Replicas catalog);
>
>Are you thinking something along the lines of the Hellstorm
>from that catalogue? Cause's that's what I see whe I hear of a
>katana-scimitar cross-breed...

No.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Ebony
Charter Member
Dec-21-01, 06:04 PM (EDT)
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17. "RE: Spiffy new Weaponry thread"
In response to message #5
 
   >>Now that she's officially a master, she might feel that a magical
>>sword is acceptable...or she might not.
>
>I think that one of the major reasons she's as fond of her zaitoichi
>as she is lies in the fact that it's concealed. Not only does that
>give her an element of surprise (in some situations), but it also
>keeps random people on the street from staring at her because she's
>wearing a wacking great sword. She mentioned that when Utena received
>the Thorn of the Rose originally, but Utena obviously enjoys being
>noticed, and it's not like she could be inconspicuous if she tried
>anyway. She's got bright pink hair for god's sake.

I would go out on a limb and say that the zatoichi is a Core Pattern Item, which means that it is intrinsically part of Kate's being. The sword is the soul of the samurai, after all. She may put it down, but it will not be a simple discard.

Ebony the Black Dragon
aka Draco Draconis Ebenium
known to Living Room Games as Aaron F. Johnson
Senior Editor
http://www.lrgames.com

(Earthdawn Second Edition Companion has just shipped; look for it soon)


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