[ EPU Foyer ] [ Lab and Grill ] [ Bonus Theater!! ] [ Rhetorical Questions ] [ CSRANTronix ] [ GNDN ] [ Subterranean Vault ] [ Discussion Forum ] [ Gun of the Week ]

Eyrie Productions, Unlimited

Subject: "SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..." Archived thread - Read only
 
  Previous Topic | Next Topic
Printer-friendly copy    
Conferences Undocumented Features General Topic #469
Reading Topic #469
thorne
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 00:26 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail thorne Click to send private message to thorne Click to add this user to your buddy list  
"SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
 
   ...or perhaps not so crypto.

(Phil thinks a dose of countervailing criticism is needed at this juncture, in the midst of the uniform SoS2:7:Congratulation & Approbation. :) Phil takes an intentionally extreme stance. Phil dons his asbestos suit.)

Kaitlyn and Juri. Utena and Anthy. Amanda and her bodyguard. Azalynn and Liza. The Centauri guy. And the scene in SoS1 (Paris IIRC) when Kate sees the "Roman-nosed" lady and the Nebari girl (and I think, "Uh oh, Farscape!" and then reflexively panic "NOOO! Aeryn and Chiana can't be lesbians! John will be devastated!" and then attempt to relax and tell myself that of course it's not *them* in particular -- right?).

Not that I'm narrow-mindedly objecting to alternative lifestyles chosen by fictional characters, just... (1) Why? Is there any particular *reason* EPU decided to make (mostly female) homo- and bisexuality a major theme at this time? Did it suddenly become *fashionable*? Or did characters just *evolve* that way, as they are wont to do?

No, *this* is where I will be narrow-minded and object: (2) Most of these characters having sex are *teenagers*, well under the age of 18. And unmarried, to boot. --Yes yes, I know real-world US statistics indicate kids as young as 12 are engaging in carnal relations, and there's precedent in anime, but I nonetheless carry this silly old-fashioned notion that fiction should *set an example*. Even if it's artificial. Even if the story's audience isn't the people who *need* the example. <shrug> It's the thought that counts.

<uncle>ONE MORE THING!</uncle> --I have another objection, an idiosyncracy you could call it, against: (3) Sex in the stories I read: specifically, anything describing before, after, and especially -- and thank the Muses that EPU doesn't do *this* -- during. (I can name SF pro-authors who are horrible horrible offenders.) By the end of "SoS2:7:Ceremony & Celebration", Kate and Juri have apparently consummated their relationship. That just creeps me out. Honestly. Couldn't they do it *between* stories? And for balance, yes, the first encounters in UF1 creeped me out too. For reference: the scene in "Hopelessly Lost" when Gryph forces himself to drink coffee to dispel the image of Zoner with Sylia.

(Phil braces himself for reactions.)


  Printer-friendly page | Top

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Shadowhavoc Jan-31-02 1
  RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Gryphonadmin Jan-31-02 2
     RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Shadowhavoc Jan-31-02 4
  RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Laudre Jan-31-02 3
     RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Gryphonadmin Jan-31-02 15
         RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... donnerjackadmin Jan-31-02 16
         RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Laudre Jan-31-02 38
         RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Ebony Jan-31-02 73
     RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Peter Eng Jan-31-02 17
  RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Wedge Jan-31-02 5
  RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Gryphonadmin Jan-31-02 6
     RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Shadowhavoc Jan-31-02 7
     RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Neophyte Jan-31-02 9
  Litcrits who squick, today on Oprah. Mister Fnord Jan-31-02 8
     RE: Litcrits who squick, today on Oprah. Gryphonadmin Jan-31-02 10
         RE: Litcrits who squick, today on Oprah. Shadowhavoc Jan-31-02 13
         RE: Litcrits who squick, today on Oprah. Star Ranger4 Jan-31-02 23
         RE: Litcrits who squick, today on Oprah. Mooneyes Jan-31-02 27
             RE: Litcrits who squick, today on Oprah. Gryphonadmin Jan-31-02 28
                 RE: Litcrits who squick, today on Oprah. Ardaniel Jan-31-02 29
                 RE: Litcrits who squick, today on Oprah. Gryphonadmin Jan-31-02 30
                     RE: Litcrits who squick, today on Oprah. Mooneyes Jan-31-02 31
         RE: Litcrits who squick, today on Oprah. TRB Jan-31-02 65
  RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Ardaniel Jan-31-02 11
     RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Gryphonadmin Jan-31-02 12
         RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Nathan Jan-31-02 36
  RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... donnerjackadmin Jan-31-02 14
  RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Redneck Jan-31-02 18
     RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Gryphonadmin Jan-31-02 19
         RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Wedge Jan-31-02 20
     RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Rod_H Jan-31-02 25
         RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Gryphonadmin Jan-31-02 26
             RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Wedge Jan-31-02 32
                 RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... dbrandon Jan-31-02 39
             RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Mephronmoderator Jan-31-02 40
                 RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... trussteam Jan-31-02 41
                     RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Mephronmoderator Jan-31-02 42
                 RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Rod_H Jan-31-02 44
                     RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Laudre Jan-31-02 45
     RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Sinapus Jan-31-02 43
  RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... StaticdashPulse Jan-31-02 21
     RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Gryphonadmin Jan-31-02 22
         RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... StaticdashPulse Jan-31-02 24
  RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... drakensisthered Jan-31-02 33
     RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Rod_H Jan-31-02 35
         RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Mister Fnord Jan-31-02 46
         RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... JeanneHedge Jan-31-02 74
  RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Offsides Jan-31-02 34
  RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Phantom Jan-31-02 37
  RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Griever Jan-31-02 47
     RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Shadowhavoc Jan-31-02 48
         RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Griever Jan-31-02 49
             RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Shadowhavoc Jan-31-02 50
                 RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Griever Jan-31-02 64
             RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... sideways Jan-31-02 51
                 RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Shadowhavoc Jan-31-02 52
                     RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... donnerjackadmin Jan-31-02 53
                         RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Offsides Jan-31-02 54
                             RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Laudre Jan-31-02 55
                             RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Shadowhavoc Jan-31-02 56
             RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Gryphonadmin Jan-31-02 58
                 RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Griever Jan-31-02 63
  RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Archr Jan-31-02 57
     RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Gryphonadmin Jan-31-02 59
         RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Archr Jan-31-02 60
  This has gotten *much* more attention than this really ... bparanial Jan-31-02 61
     RE: This has gotten *much* more attention than this rea... Gryphonadmin Jan-31-02 62
  RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... junipermoderator Jan-31-02 66
     RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Gryphonadmin Jan-31-02 67
         RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... junipermoderator Jan-31-02 68
             RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Gryphonadmin Jan-31-02 69
             RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Laudre Jan-31-02 71
                 RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... junipermoderator Jan-31-02 72
                     RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Laudre Jan-31-02 75
                     RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Khirsah Jan-31-02 79
     RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Wedge Jan-31-02 70
     RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... BobSchroeck Jan-31-02 78
         RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Offsides Jan-31-02 80
  RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Matrix Dragon Jan-31-02 76
  RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Chris Redfield Jan-31-02 77
  RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext... Gryphonadmin Jan-31-02 81

Conferences | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic
Shadowhavoc
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 00:31 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Shadowhavoc Click to send private message to Shadowhavoc Click to add this user to your buddy list  
1. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #0
 
   >Kaitlyn and Juri. Utena and Anthy. Amanda and her bodyguard. Azalynn
>and Liza. The Centauri guy. And the scene in SoS1 (Paris IIRC) when
>Kate sees the "Roman-nosed" lady and the Nebari girl (and I think, "Uh
>oh, Farscape!" and then reflexively panic "NOOO! Aeryn and Chiana
>can't be lesbians! John will be devastated!" and then attempt to relax
>and tell myself that of course it's not *them* in particular --
>right?).
>
>Not that I'm narrow-mindedly objecting to alternative lifestyles
>chosen by fictional characters, just... (1) Why? Is there any
>particular *reason* EPU decided to make (mostly female) homo-
>and bisexuality a major theme at this time? Did it suddenly become
>*fashionable*? Or did characters just *evolve* that
>way, as they are wont to do?
>
>No, *this* is where I will be narrow-minded and object: (2)
>Most of these characters having sex are *teenagers*, well under
>the age of 18. And unmarried, to boot. --Yes yes, I know real-world
>US statistics indicate kids as young as 12 are engaging in carnal
>relations, and there's precedent in anime, but I nonetheless carry
>this silly old-fashioned notion that fiction should *set an
>example*.
Even if it's artificial. Even if the story's audience
>isn't the people who *need* the example. <shrug> It's the
>thought that counts.
>
><uncle>ONE MORE THING!</uncle> --I have another objection, an
>idiosyncracy you could call it, against: (3) Sex in the stories I
>read: specifically, anything describing before, after, and especially
>-- and thank the Muses that EPU doesn't do *this* -- during.
>(I can name SF pro-authors who are horrible horrible offenders.) By
>the end of "SoS2:7:Ceremony & Celebration", Kate and Juri have
>apparently consummated their relationship. That just creeps me out.
>Honestly. Couldn't they do it *between* stories? And for
>balance, yes, the first encounters in UF1 creeped me out too. For
>reference: the scene in "Hopelessly Lost" when Gryph forces himself to
>drink coffee to dispel the image of Zoner with Sylia.
>
>(Phil braces himself for reactions.)

I'm going...to get a shovel.

And maybe an umbrella...


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
19885 posts
Jan-31-02, 00:43 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Gryphon Click to send private message to Gryphon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
2. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jan-31-02 AT 00:44 AM (EST)

>...or perhaps not so crypto.

Ah, right. You're the guy who reads too much into everything.

>Not that I'm narrow-mindedly objecting to alternative lifestyles
>chosen by fictional characters, just... (1) Why? Is there any
>particular *reason* EPU decided to make (mostly female) homo-
>and bisexuality a major theme at this time?

Ummmmmmmmmm... well... three of the characters you mention brought it with them as part of their canonical design...

(You know, it's funny... ever since I started plotting this series and realized the distribution of sexual preferences, I knew it would be only a matter of time before the first "D00D, what's with all the lesbians?!" post. I didn't expect it to be couched in pseudo-critical gobbledegook about "crypto-(foo) subtext" though. Shows you I should learn to expect more from my readers. :)

>No, *this* is where I will be narrow-minded and object: (2)
>Most of these characters having sex are *teenagers*, well under
>the age of 18.

... And? In my home state, the age of consent is 14. Or it was when I was of an age to give a damn about it, anyway.

>I nonetheless carry
>this silly old-fashioned notion that fiction should *set an
>example*.

Yeah? Then how about looking at the conditions under which most (if not all) of the sexual relationships in SOS are occurring. Look at the respect and trust that exist between the partners. Look at the care that's taken to avoid hurting people. Look at, in short, the maturity of the characters involved, rather than an arbitrary, artificial, useless guideline like calendar age.

><uncle>ONE MORE THING!</uncle> --I have another objection, an
>idiosyncracy you could call it, against: (3) Sex in the stories I
>read: specifically, anything describing before, after, and especially
>-- and thank the Muses that EPU doesn't do *this* -- during.
>(I can name SF pro-authors who are horrible horrible offenders.) By
>the end of "SoS2:7:Ceremony & Celebration", Kate and Juri have
>apparently consummated their relationship. That just creeps me out.

Then piss off! For Christ's sake, I didn't hold you down and force you to read it, Bucky. Sexuality is an important part of life, and to omit "anything describing before, after, and... during [sexual activity]" is to leave out a major component of what makes these people who and what they are. I'm not saying they're defined entirely by their sex lives, any more than they're defined entirely by what subjects they study or what hobbies they have - but it's as important as either of those.

If it bothers you that much, then you're in the wrong aisle. Don't complain to me, because I don't intend to change the way I do things in order to accommodate your puritanical squeamishness.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Shadowhavoc
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 00:56 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Shadowhavoc Click to send private message to Shadowhavoc Click to add this user to your buddy list  
4. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #2
 
   >(You know, it's funny... ever since I started plotting this series and
>realized the distribution of sexual preferences, I knew it would be
>only a matter of time before the first "D00D, what's with all the
>lesbians?!" post. I didn't expect it to be couched in pseudo-critical
>gobbledegook about "crypto-(foo) subtext" though. Shows you I should
>learn to expect more from my readers. :)

I've been tempted to ask about it, but on a different tone.

>>No, *this* is where I will be narrow-minded and object: (2)
>>Most of these characters having sex are *teenagers*, well under
>>the age of 18.
>
>... And? In my home state, the age of consent is 14. Or it was when
>I was of an age to give a damn about it, anyway.

Interesting.

>>I nonetheless carry
>>this silly old-fashioned notion that fiction should *set an
>>example*.

>
>Yeah? Then how about looking at the conditions under which most (if
>not all) of the sexual relationships in SOS are occurring.
>Look at the respect and trust that exist between the partners. Look
>at the care that's taken to avoid hurting people. Look at, in short,
>the maturity of the characters involved, rather than an
>arbitrary, artificial, useless guideline like calendar age.

At the risk of sounding like a sychophant (sp?) I agree with Gryphon's point. While I've never been in a relationship, I have seen my mother go through six husbands and a fiance she recently broke up with. My aunts, uncles and even my younger cousins have made attempts for relationships. There was hardly any trust, they acted like children..no, worse than children in behavior and lacked any consideration when they hurt one another.

>><uncle>ONE MORE THING!</uncle> --I have another objection, an
>>idiosyncracy you could call it, against: (3) Sex in the stories I
>>read: specifically, anything describing before, after, and especially
>>-- and thank the Muses that EPU doesn't do *this* -- during.
>>(I can name SF pro-authors who are horrible horrible offenders.) By
>>the end of "SoS2:7:Ceremony & Celebration", Kate and Juri have
>>apparently consummated their relationship. That just creeps me out.
>
>Then piss off! For Christ's sake, I didn't hold you down and force
>you to read it, Bucky. Sexuality is an important part of life, and to
>omit "anything describing before, after, and... during [sexual
>activity]" is to leave out a major component of what makes these
>people who and what they are. I'm not saying they're defined
>entirely by their sex lives, any more than they're defined
>entirely by what subjects they study or what hobbies they have - but
>it's as important as either of those.
>
>If it bothers you that much, then you're in the wrong aisle. Don't
>complain to me, because I don't intend to change the way I do things
>in order to accommodate your puritanical squeamishness.
>
To heck with the shovel, there's not enough left to bury.

Hmph.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Laudre
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 00:44 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Laudre Click to send private message to Laudre Click to add this user to your buddy list  
3. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #0
 
   >...or perhaps not so crypto.

Erm... crypto? Subtext?

No, it's not hidden. And it's not subtext -- it's right out in the open. Sheesh.

>Kaitlyn and Juri.

Juri's an established lesbian in the source material. I've only seen the movie and I know this. (In the movie Shiori seems to reciprocate, unless I'm reading it wrong.) Kaitlyn is an established bisexual who hasn't met very many men lately who have rung her bells. The last one who came close annihilated her trust and deserves to be fed to the Sarlacc. (Not that I want to have one more word concerning M*ke C*rp*nt*r ever to appear in another Eyrie story.)

> Utena and Anthy.

A canonical relationship. Also, Utena is straight, except for Anthy.

> Amanda and her bodyguard.

This has more to do with the Dessler-Dragonaar thing than the gender thing. It's made pretty clear that all pairs concerned tend to be intimate, and Gamilons have a completely different set of sexual mores anyway.

> Azalynn and Liza.

With all due respect to Azalynn, she falls into the "if it's got two legs then it's fair game" philosophy (with the consensual rider, of course). As for Liza... well, spend some time with daughters of rich families. Her behavior is downright <i>chaste</i> compared to some of what I've heard about.

> The Centauri guy.

He's not a lesbian.

> And the scene in SoS1 (Paris IIRC) when
>Kate sees the "Roman-nosed" lady and the Nebari girl (and I think, "Uh
>oh, Farscape!" and then reflexively panic "NOOO! Aeryn and Chiana
>can't be lesbians! John will be devastated!" and then attempt to relax
>and tell myself that of course it's not *them* in particular --
>right?).

The purpose of that has more to do with establishing the differences between Cephiro and modern Midgard human culture in regards to sexual mores.

>Not that I'm narrow-mindedly objecting to alternative lifestyles
>chosen by fictional characters, just...

You're not making a good case for this.

> (1) Why? Is there any
>particular *reason* EPU decided to make (mostly female) homo-
>and bisexuality a major theme at this time?

Theme? No, I think emerging sexuality and the importance of love in all its forms in general are the themes. Devlin is, erm, trio'ed up with Rina and Amanda; Kaitlyn and Utena both have their respective... traumas to deal with; Corwin is learning about the emotional half of it, etc. Miki and Dorothy are a heterosexual couple. So are Wakaba and Saionji (and I suspect their sex life is rather conventional, honestly).

>No, *this* is where I will be narrow-minded and object: (2)
>Most of these characters having sex are *teenagers*, well under
>the age of 18. And unmarried, to boot.

...Your point?

> --Yes yes, I know real-world
>US statistics indicate kids as young as 12 are engaging in carnal
>relations, and there's precedent in anime, but I nonetheless carry
>this silly old-fashioned notion that fiction should *set an
>example*.

Well, as soon as I start piloting mecha and making FTL hops to neighboring star systems, I'll be sure to look to space opera fanfiction for an example of sexual mores. Christ.

><uncle>ONE MORE THING!</uncle> --I have another objection, an
>idiosyncracy you could call it, against: (3) Sex in the stories I
>read: specifically, anything describing before, after, and especially
>-- and thank the Muses that EPU doesn't do *this* -- during.

Then don't read it. Simple as that.

-- Sean --
Rabid Crack Weasel #42
http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
19885 posts
Jan-31-02, 02:13 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Gryphon Click to send private message to Gryphon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
15. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #3
 
   >Miki and Dorothy are a heterosexual couple.

Yeah, and while we're flinging age-of-consent opprobrium around like alpha-monkey doo-doo, what about Miki? His girlfriend is six! That bastard! Somebody ought to lock him up...

>So are Wakaba
>and Saionji (and I suspect their sex life is rather conventional,
>honestly).

Want a little too much information? In the main cast, everybody's sex life (for those who have them) is rather conventional. None of the main cast have any particular kink. Miki isn't with Dorothy because she's a robot, but rather in spite of it. Azalynn is actually quite straightforward in the sack - fun and inventive, certainly, but aside from the odd inadvertent (and apologized-for) claw mark, quite un-dangerous. And so forth.

Beld, I'm not so sure about; I try not to investigate anything about Beld's private life too closely. :)

>Well, as soon as I start piloting mecha and making FTL hops to
>neighboring star systems, I'll be sure to look to space opera
>fanfiction for an example of sexual mores. Christ.

'scuse me while I mop up my monitor and wish I'd said that. :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
donnerjackadmin
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 02:18 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail donnerjack Click to send private message to donnerjack Click to add this user to your buddy list  
16. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #15
 
   >>Miki and Dorothy are a heterosexual couple.
>
>Yeah, and while we're flinging age-of-consent opprobrium around like
>alpha-monkey doo-doo, what about Miki? His girlfriend is six!
>That bastard! Somebody ought to lock him up...

Aww Christ, now I have to wipe down my monitor. Ardaniel and I were discussing that on the IRC channel just a minute before you posted it actually, but apparently carnal relations with underage robots is hunky dorey. It's the underage, unmarried lesbian sex you gotta watch out for.


Donnerjack
--
reality@peoplearestrange.net
BOFH to www.astralstudios.com


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Laudre
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 09:15 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Laudre Click to send private message to Laudre Click to add this user to your buddy list  
38. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #15
 
   >>Well, as soon as I start piloting mecha and making FTL hops to
>>neighboring star systems, I'll be sure to look to space opera
>>fanfiction for an example of sexual mores. Christ.
>
>'scuse me while I mop up my monitor and wish I'd said that. :)

It's only the truth. This happened to trip over one of my pet peeves; so-called critics who seem to think that all morality in fiction should be treated on the same absolute scale as that used in the Real World. As a long-time reader, writer, and fan of speculative fiction, such a position is unqualified horseshit.

It's what gets my goat every time I hear a fundie ranting about how Harry Potter is evil because he uses wizardry, even though the behavior of he and his friends is entirely consistent with the fundamental principles of Christian morality (helping and trusting others, loyalty to one's friends and family, making a stand against evil). Hey, guess what -- Harry Potter lives in a world where it's possible to pick up a stick, wave it around while saying some mangled pseudo-Latin, and obtain some flashy and impressive effects that, in the Real World, only happen with months of work by ILM or Digital Domain, and then only in ten-second shots.

Furthermore, what's with this bizarre expectation that all protagonists have to be paragons of virtue? A character is made interesting by his flaws, not by his (or her) l33t n1nj4 sk1||z. Sometimes (in fact, most of the time) that includes making judgment calls that may not be for the best, or in line with some idea of Absolute Morality. Trying to make the story nothing more than a podium for the author's personal belief system results in fiction that is preachy, unsubtle, and uninteresting (except, perhaps, from an academic viewpoint).

It is not the role of a writer to set examples through his characters or through the black-and-white morality of his universe (George Lucas notwithstanding). It is the role of a fiction writer to tell stories, and the best stories that he can tell. Sometimes that means having characters make statements or perform actions that the writer may not think are the Right Thing, but all things in a story are subordinate to the needs of the plot and the characterization, and a good writer doesn't try to shoehorn in messages that don't fit with the story.

I could put on the Serious Literary Type hat and write up an honest critique of Symphony of the Sword, but I don't much see any percentage in doing that. I'm not going to change Gryph's mind about any of it, and the flaws and idiosyncracies in the work are far outweighed by the fun I have reading it. I could even do it without trying to promote an agenda (as thorne did here), but, again, I don't much see the point. It's not appropriate, any more than evaluating Kung Pow: Enter the Fist as if it were Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon would be. (This is purely an illustrative example; I'm not trying to compare SOS to really ineffective parody or best-of-breed wuxia.)

-- Sean --
Rabid Crack Weasel #42
http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Ebony
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 06:22 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Ebony Click to send private message to Ebony Click to add this user to your buddy list  
73. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #15
 
   word "technophile" into a different focus, wouldn't you agree? :)

>>So are Wakaba
>>and Saionji (and I suspect their sex life is rather conventional,
>>honestly).
>
>Want a little too much information? In the main cast,
>everybody's sex life (for those who have them) is rather
>conventional. None of the main cast have any particular kink. Miki
>isn't with Dorothy because she's a robot, but rather in spite of it.
>Azalynn is actually quite straightforward in the sack - fun and
>inventive, certainly, but aside from the odd inadvertent (and
>apologized-for) claw mark, quite un-dangerous. And so forth.

Figured that much. Any more information is, quite frankly, not our business. You aren't Elf, and this ain't Pendor.

Personally, I got the impression that Wakaba and Saionji were actually pretty chaste in their relationship. Maybe it's just the impression that I got from her soliloquy when she moved in with him, in the First Symphony, but I think that neither of them _want_ it, as of the end of Sympony 2. But that's just me.

Ebony the Black Dragon
aka Draco Draconis Ebenium
known to the Kinsey Institute as Aaron F. Johnson,
Senior Editor, Living Room Games
http://www.lrgames.com


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Peter Eng
Charter Member
1584 posts
Jan-31-02, 02:23 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Peter%20Eng Click to send private message to Peter%20Eng Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
17. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #3
 
   >> Utena and Anthy.
>
>A canonical relationship. Also, Utena is straight, except for Anthy.
>

Or, to paraphrase something I read somewhere, Utena isn't homosexual. She is Anthy-sexual...

Peter Eng

Peter Eng
--
Insert humorous comment here.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Wedge
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 00:57 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Wedge Click to send private message to Wedge Click to add this user to your buddy list  
5. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #0
 
   Not a flame, please reread if you think it is.

>No, *this* is where I will be narrow-minded and object: (2)
>Most of these characters having sex are *teenagers*, well under
>the age of 18.

Please explain how 17 is well under the age of 18? As of C+C, Kate is 17, and I don't think anyone else who's currently being sexually active is under the age of 16, though I might be mistaken about that fact. The only spot I think I might be wrong would be with Miki.

><uncle>ONE MORE THING!</uncle> --I have another objection, an
>idiosyncracy you could call it, against: (3) Sex in the stories I
>read: specifically, anything describing before, after, and especially
>-- and thank the Muses that EPU doesn't do *this* -- during.
>(I can name SF pro-authors who are horrible horrible offenders.) By
>the end of "SoS2:7:Ceremony & Celebration", Kate and Juri have
>apparently consummated their relationship. That just creeps me out.
>Honestly. Couldn't they do it *between* stories? And for
>balance, yes, the first encounters in UF1 creeped me out too. For
>reference: the scene in "Hopelessly Lost" when Gryph forces himself to
>drink coffee to dispel the image of Zoner with Sylia.

Errr, Hopelessly Lost isn't Undocumented Features. Apples and oranges, even if it is SI. Different Character set.

Also, have you ever seen any of Revolutionary Girl Utena? I've only seen the movie, and read some synopsis stuff on the web, and I know that it's steeped in sexual subtext, some hidden, some quite blatent. To have ignored it completely would have made the RGU characters no longer the characters that Gryphon wanted to work with. Personally, I think he's done a stellar job in keeping it relatively clean while holding them all up to the characters they are, which is one of the reasons I'm so addicted to the fiction on this site.

You're not really voicing criticism here, you voicing personal opinion. Nothing wrong with that, but I think you're confusing the two. If you don't like that kind of thing, why are you reading it? For it not to be there would be a travesty, in my personal opinion. And also in my opinion, what happened between Juri and Kate at the end of C+C was in it's way a bigger payoff than anyone else in the story got that day--saying a lot given the events at hand--for the simple reason that they both so richly deserved the comfort and love of each other after the road they've been on to that point.

---------------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company
And please, dear goddess, don't read NXE.
---------------------------------


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
19885 posts
Jan-31-02, 00:57 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Gryphon Click to send private message to Gryphon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
6. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #0
 
   >Why?

Oh, by the way, I left this out of my original post, since I was busy taking your pseudo-intellectual pontification more seriously than it really deserved, but:

Masamune Shirow, in the "liner notes" to his first color artwork collection, Intron Depot, explained the deleted pages from Ghost in the Shell by saying, "I made it an all-girl orgy because I didn't want to draw some guy's butt."

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Shadowhavoc
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 01:06 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Shadowhavoc Click to send private message to Shadowhavoc Click to add this user to your buddy list  
7. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #6
 
   >>Why?
>
>Oh, by the way, I left this out of my original post, since I was busy
>taking your pseudo-intellectual pontification more seriously than it
>really deserved, but:
>
>Masamune Shirow, in the "liner notes" to his first color artwork
>collection, Intron Depot, explained the deleted pages from
>Ghost in the Shell by saying, "I made it an all-girl orgy
>because I didn't want to draw some guy's butt."
>
Now that's funny.

Hnh.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Neophyte
Charter Member
111 posts
Jan-31-02, 01:18 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Neophyte Click to send private message to Neophyte Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
9. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #6
 
   >>Why?
>
>Oh, by the way, I left this out of my original post, since I was busy
>taking your pseudo-intellectual pontification more seriously than it
>really deserved, but:
>
>Masamune Shirow, in the "liner notes" to his first color artwork
>collection, Intron Depot, explained the deleted pages from
>Ghost in the Shell by saying, "I made it an all-girl orgy
>because I didn't want to draw some guy's butt."

And it's not Ben's fault that so many main characters in anime just happen to be female. What's he supposed to do? Play matchmaker and create male love-interests for all of them?

(Although, academically speaking, that could be an interesting and entertaining excercise)

-------
Y. Michael Chang
Mechanical Engineering major, Berkeley, CA

The difference between scientists and engineers is that a scientists can get hundreds of things wrong and one thing right, and, for that one thing, he or she will be famous. On the other hand, an engineer can get hundreds of things right and one thing wrong, and, for that one thing, he or she will be infamous.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Mister Fnord
Charter Member
294 posts
Jan-31-02, 01:17 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Mister%20Fnord Click to send private message to Mister%20Fnord Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
8. "Litcrits who squick, today on Oprah."
In response to message #0
 
  
Others, including Gryph, have responded to the other points. This bit here, however, just caught my attention:

>By
>the end of "SoS2:7:Ceremony & Celebration", Kate and Juri have
>apparently consummated their relationship. That just creeps me out.
>Honestly. Couldn't they do it *between* stories? And for
>balance, yes, the first encounters in UF1 creeped me out too.

The fuck, man? Are you that easily squicked? I mean, it's not like the entire sequence of events was described in minute detail, in either situation. I mean, we're talking three or four paragraphs at most, no explicit description, no kiny scenarios, (at least none we're privy to -- further this respondent sayeth not ;) not even any blue language. I'm under the impression that we're all adults (or incredible simulations thereof) here, and this is PG-13 stuff at best. NYPD Blue is racier any given week.

And how, exactly, does putting the sex scenes between the episodes make things better? That doesn't make any sense at all: "Something happens, but you don't get to know what, because it's naughty." Right. Fine. We must protect the children, because you've got a hair up your ass.

Ah, the hell with it. If you can't handle mature entertainment, you're free to wander off to disney.com or whatever.

Mr. Fnord, Rabid Crack Weasel #23
--
"I JUST BLEW THIRTY MILLION DOLLARS ON AN IDIOTIC FILM ABOUT CLOWN COPS!!! WHY DIDN'T ANY OF YOU STOP ME?!?"
-Bob the Angry Flower

--
Mr. Fnord


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
19885 posts
Jan-31-02, 01:27 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Gryphon Click to send private message to Gryphon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
10. "RE: Litcrits who squick, today on Oprah."
In response to message #8
 
   >>By
>>the end of "SoS2:7:Ceremony & Celebration", Kate and Juri have
>>apparently consummated their relationship. That just creeps me out.
>>Honestly. Couldn't they do it *between* stories? And for
>>balance, yes, the first encounters in UF1 creeped me out too.
>
>The fuck, man? Are you that easily squicked? I mean, it's not like the
>entire sequence of events was described in minute detail, in
>either situation.

Yeah, now that you mention it, this did strike me as pretty funny. I mean, I've always considered myself some what timid about depicting the sex lives of my characters. When I wrote Exodus 2:4: The Day the Universe Changed, I hesitated for some time wondering whether to release it as it came out, but finally decided that I had to - the dialogue that ran through it was too important to leave out, and revamping the sequence to tame it down would have - if you'll pardon the expression - emasculated it. So I left it, and fretted about it.

As it happens, I've got a couple of bits planned for later parts of the Symphony that tread similar terrain. It comes with the territory, I think - as I've already said (or tried to say, anyway), love and sex, both connected and exclusive of each other, are critical themes here, and there's no escaping them. Not for me, and (if you keep reading) not for you. I'm a little uncomfortable with the notion - I was raised in New England and there's part of my soul that will always be Puritan no matter how the rest of me rails against it - but I'm pressing on anyway because I think it's important, not because I'm going for cheap thrills.

So consider this fair warning: it won't end here. It's not a story about sex, and I promise never to use the word "cum", but I'm not going to shuffle these matters off screen, because

a) that's narratively dumb - what am I supposed to do if I move it to "between stories" as suggested, open the next part with "While we weren't looking, something naughty happened"?

b) Well, I've already covered b above, so I suppose I don't need to go into it again, except to reiterate one more time: it's important.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Shadowhavoc
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 01:35 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Shadowhavoc Click to send private message to Shadowhavoc Click to add this user to your buddy list  
13. "RE: Litcrits who squick, today on Oprah."
In response to message #10
 
   >>>By
>>>the end of "SoS2:7:Ceremony & Celebration", Kate and Juri have
>>>apparently consummated their relationship. That just creeps me out.
>>>Honestly. Couldn't they do it *between* stories? And for
>>>balance, yes, the first encounters in UF1 creeped me out too.
>>
>>The fuck, man? Are you that easily squicked? I mean, it's not like the
>>entire sequence of events was described in minute detail, in
>>either situation.
>
>Yeah, now that you mention it, this did strike me as pretty funny. I
>mean, I've always considered myself some what timid about
>depicting the sex lives of my characters. When I wrote Exodus 2:4:
>The Day the Universe Changed
, I hesitated for some time wondering
>whether to release it as it came out, but finally decided that I had
>to - the dialogue that ran through it was too important to leave out,
>and revamping the sequence to tame it down would have - if you'll
>pardon the expression - emasculated it. So I left it, and fretted
>about it.
>
>As it happens, I've got a couple of bits planned for later parts of
>the Symphony that tread similar terrain. It comes with the
>territory, I think - as I've already said (or tried to say, anyway),
>love and sex, both connected and exclusive of each other, are critical
>themes here, and there's no escaping them. Not for me, and (if you
>keep reading) not for you. I'm a little uncomfortable with the notion
>- I was raised in New England and there's part of my soul that will
>always be Puritan no matter how the rest of me rails against it - but
>I'm pressing on anyway because I think it's important, not
>because I'm going for cheap thrills.
>
>So consider this fair warning: it won't end here. It's not a story
>about sex, and I promise never to use the word "cum", but I'm
>not going to shuffle these matters off screen, because
>
>a) that's narratively dumb - what am I supposed to do if I move it to
>"between stories" as suggested, open the next part with "While we
>weren't looking, something naughty happened"?
>
>b) Well, I've already covered b above, so I suppose I don't need to go
>into it again, except to reiterate one more time: it's
>important.

>
I've been reading mature (for lack of a better word) works since I was thirteen. Extreme amounts of swearing, bloodshed, violence, detailed torture scenes and whatnot; and I've got to say this: When the writers of EPU create certain images, yeah they have their limits (PG-13) that they set upon themselves, I just think they're doing it in, um, in a certain way that gets things across without becoming crass in the descriptions. I'm tempted to type an example, but I don't feel right doing that.

Taste? Class? Style?--No that don't sound right, either.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Star Ranger4
Charter Member
2277 posts
Jan-31-02, 03:39 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Star%20Ranger4 Click to send private message to Star%20Ranger4 Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list Click to send message via AOL IM  
23. "RE: Litcrits who squick, today on Oprah."
In response to message #10
 
   >As it happens, I've got a couple of bits planned for later parts of
>the Symphony that tread similar terrain. It comes with the
>territory, I think - as I've already said (or tried to say, anyway),
>love and sex, both connected and exclusive of each other, are critical
>themes here, and there's no escaping them. Not for me, and (if you
>keep reading) not for you. I'm a little uncomfortable with the notion
>- I was raised in New England and there's part of my soul that will
>always be Puritan no matter how the rest of me rails against it - but
>I'm pressing on anyway because I think it's important, not
>because I'm going for cheap thrills.
>
>So consider this fair warning: it won't end here. It's not a story
>about sex, and I promise never to use the word "cum", but I'm
>not going to shuffle these matters off screen, because
>
>a) that's narratively dumb - what am I supposed to do if I move it to
>"between stories" as suggested, open the next part with "While we
>weren't looking, something naughty happened"?
>
>b) Well, I've already covered b above, so I suppose I don't need to go
>into it again, except to reiterate one more time: it's
>important.

>

Indeed. I have to chime in on your side, Gryph. Not because I'm a rabid crack weasel of a fan, but because I happen to think that your right. I've never seen you engage in this sort of thing with anything but the best of taste, and because it WAS important to the story.

As far as I'm concerned, this gent can take his homophobia and stick it up his waste obulette.

___________________

Of COURSE you wern't expecting it!! NO ONE expects the Fannish Inquisition!!


Of COURSE you wernt expecting it!
No One expects the FANNISH INQUISITION!
RCW# 86


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Mooneyes
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 04:27 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Mooneyes Click to send private message to Mooneyes Click to add this user to your buddy list  
27. "RE: Litcrits who squick, today on Oprah."
In response to message #10
 
   >Yeah, now that you mention it, this did strike me as pretty funny. I
>mean, I've always considered myself some what timid about
>depicting the sex lives of my characters. When I wrote Exodus 2:4:
>The Day the Universe Changed
, I hesitated for some time wondering
>whether to release it as it came out, but finally decided that I had
>to - the dialogue that ran through it was too important to leave out,
>and revamping the sequence to tame it down would have - if you'll
>pardon the expression - emasculated it. So I left it, and fretted
>about it.


Speaking of which, why is it that he didn't mention Exodus, I wonder? I mean, they (the Children) are 14? THAT might have gotten to me, depending on the kids...but, they are all of them MUCH more mature than their biological age, so I just didn't/don't reflect over it, then OR now.

/MoonEyes


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
19885 posts
Jan-31-02, 04:30 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Gryphon Click to send private message to Gryphon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
28. "RE: Litcrits who squick, today on Oprah."
In response to message #27
 
   >Speaking of which, why is it that he didn't mention Exodus, I wonder?

He might've brought it up, back months ago when he tried applying his Critical Thinking Techniques to NXE. ISTR slamming the door in his face pretty hard at the time, though the details elude me.

I find I don't have much patience for Serious Literary Types, and when they come into my shop and start sniffing derisively at my wares, I get very tetchy.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Ardaniel
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 04:50 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Ardaniel Click to send private message to Ardaniel Click to add this user to your buddy list  
29. "RE: Litcrits who squick, today on Oprah."
In response to message #28
 
   >I find I don't have much patience for Serious Literary Types, and when
>they come into my shop and start sniffing derisively at my wares, I
>get very tetchy.

If this had been just "you know, most teenagers don't enter into homosexual relationships for whatever reason, and I think the high ratio of same-sex pairings depicted in SOS merits discussion," minus the morality play, I'd've taken it better.

I would have still considered the basis of his critique *wrong,* because that's applying standards of RL behavior (like the fact that gay youth frequently don't come out or don't get into relationships in high school because, well, it's a good way to get harrassed, beaten up, or worse in a lot of cases) to the Undocuverse (Shiny Happy Anime Future Theory, take 42), but I'd've been less annoyed by it, overall.

Ard Sumhenner
Ronin Research, Sacramento, CA


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
19885 posts
Jan-31-02, 04:53 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Gryphon Click to send private message to Gryphon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
30. "RE: Litcrits who squick, today on Oprah."
In response to message #28
 
   >>Speaking of which, why is it that he didn't mention Exodus, I wonder?
>
>He might've brought it up, back months ago when he tried applying his
>Critical Thinking Techniques to NXE. ISTR slamming the door in
>his face pretty hard at the time, though the details elude me.

Boy, shows you how my memory skills are degrading; it wasn't NXE related at all, it was Wounded Rose. At this point the Symphony has come along so far so fast that it only feels like WR was as long ago as NXE...

I was right about the door-slamming part, though, and the tetchy part. I stick by my original simile - having the so-called Serious Techniques of Literary Criticism applied to my works makes me feel like I was washing my car and some guy in a beret came up and started sniffing derisively at the sloppiness of my sponge technique.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Mooneyes
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 05:01 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Mooneyes Click to send private message to Mooneyes Click to add this user to your buddy list  
31. "RE: Litcrits who squick, today on Oprah."
In response to message #30
 
  
>I was right about the door-slamming part, though, and the tetchy part.
> I stick by my original simile - having the so-called Serious
>Techniques of Literary Criticism applied to my works makes me feel
>like I was washing my car and some guy in a beret came up and started
>sniffing derisively at the sloppiness of my sponge technique.

Heh...well, he DID get a very thorough dose of the hose, for his troubles, too. And very rightly so!

/MoonEyes

"Although I can accept talking scarecrows, lions
and great wizards of emerald cities, I find it hard
to believe there is no paperwork involved when
your house lands on a witch."
- Dave James


  Printer-friendly page | Top
TRB
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 05:45 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail TRB Click to send private message to TRB Click to add this user to your buddy list  
65. "RE: Litcrits who squick, today on Oprah."
In response to message #10
 
  
>Yeah, now that you mention it, this did strike me as pretty funny. I
>mean, I've always considered myself some what timid about
>depicting the sex lives of my characters. When I wrote Exodus 2:4:
>The Day the Universe Changed
, I hesitated for some time wondering
>whether to release it as it came out, but finally decided that I had
>to - the dialogue that ran through it was too important to leave out,
>and revamping the sequence to tame it down would have - if you'll
>pardon the expression - emasculated it. So I left it, and fretted
>about it.
>
>
>--G.
>-><-
>Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
>Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

If I can say this, without being taken for a pervert somehow... I don't know how to word it without being awkward, I'll just have to have faith that the Eyrie community is mature enough to understand this the way it's intended.
That said: If it makes you feel any better Gryph, I'm glad you didn't change 2:4. The first time I read the episode, it had a powerful effect on me. It brought out an emotional response unrivalled by anything else in the Eyrie catalog. While the emotions were in no way sexually charged, it wouldn't have happened without the events happening as they did. So.

<humorous aside> Now if you want cryptic, -there- you go!! </humourous aside>

TRB

"You are... what you do... when it counts." -The Masao


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Ardaniel
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 01:30 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Ardaniel Click to send private message to Ardaniel Click to add this user to your buddy list  
11. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #0
 
   I just find it amazing that this fellow went to the lengths of uncovering all the lesbian and gay and oh-my-god-they're-not-18 bits in SOS...

and utterly missed the relationship between Amanda and Garon being in the grand tradition of all dotty, inbred ruling families.

C'mon. If you're going to insist that your personal morality is valid for everyone, at least make a token stop at what my anthropology prof used to claim was the Universal Human Taboo Barring Exceptional Situations. Sheesh.

Ard Sumhenner
Ronin Research, Sacramento, CA


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
19885 posts
Jan-31-02, 01:32 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Gryphon Click to send private message to Gryphon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
12. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #11
 
   >C'mon. If you're going to insist that your personal morality is valid
>for everyone, at least make a token stop at what my anthropology prof
>used to claim was the Universal Human Taboo Barring Exceptional
>Situations. Sheesh.

I guess he's not going to like it when Azalynn tests her theory about twins either, huh?

Oops! Did I say that out loud?

I'm such a naughty bunny.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Nathan
Charter Member
1350 posts
Jan-31-02, 07:00 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Nathan Click to send private message to Nathan Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
36. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #12
 
   >>C'mon. If you're going to insist that your personal morality is valid
>>for everyone, at least make a token stop at what my anthropology prof
>>used to claim was the Universal Human Taboo Barring Exceptional
>>Situations. Sheesh.
>
>I guess he's not going to like it when Azalynn tests her theory about
>twins either, huh?

Azalynn*smiling you know how*: So, -will- you two help me test out that theory of mine?
Kozue*likewise*: Of course I will...
Miki*times their reaction*: I think that I shall agree also.
Kozue: *-stare-*

>Oops! Did I say that out loud?

Yes. Yes you did.

>I'm such a naughty bunny.

Bad bunny! No biscuit!

Blessed be.
Nathan Baxter

-----
Iä! Iä! Moe fthagn!


  Printer-friendly page | Top
donnerjackadmin
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 01:39 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail donnerjack Click to send private message to donnerjack Click to add this user to your buddy list  
14. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #0
 
   >No, *this* is where I will be narrow-minded and object: (2)
>Most of these characters having sex are *teenagers*, well under
>the age of 18. And unmarried, to boot. --Yes yes, I know real-world
>US statistics indicate kids as young as 12 are engaging in carnal
>relations, and there's precedent in anime, but I nonetheless carry
>this silly old-fashioned notion that fiction should *set an
>example*.
Even if it's artificial. Even if the story's audience
>isn't the people who *need* the example. <shrug> It's the
>thought that counts.

Most of this has been covered already, by various people, but I couldn't resist the urge to point out one thing that hasn't been commented on yet. You're unhappy with the fact that the kids are having sex out of wedlock? Good freaking lord man, Corwin's parents aren't married. The family relationships around there are so complex you need a flippin' scorecard to tell which children belong to what set of parents, but you've got an issue with the fact that Kaitlyn and Juri, etc. aren't married? If you're looking for fic to set an example, I don't think EPU is going to set the kind of example you're expecting, and rightly so in my opinion.


Donnerjack
--
reality@peoplearestrange.net
BOFH to www.astralstudios.com


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Redneck
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 02:44 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Redneck Click to send private message to Redneck Click to add this user to your buddy list  
18. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #0
 
   >...or perhaps not so crypto.

>No, *this* is where I will be narrow-minded and object: (2)
>Most of these characters having sex are *teenagers*, well under
>the age of 18. And unmarried, to boot. --Yes yes, I know real-world
>US statistics indicate kids as young as 12 are engaging in carnal
>relations, and there's precedent in anime, but I nonetheless carry
>this silly old-fashioned notion that fiction should *set an
>example*.
Even if it's artificial. Even if the story's audience
>isn't the people who *need* the example. <shrug> It's the
>thought that counts.

Thorne, if we felt like writing messages, we'd write messages.

We write -stories.- Take 'em or leave 'em.

Redneck (if we ever begin writing Left Behind fanfic, we'll let you know)


Red wizard needs money badly...
www.wlpcomics.com
White Lightning Productions - don't tell the Pope


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
19885 posts
Jan-31-02, 02:48 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Gryphon Click to send private message to Gryphon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
19. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #18
 
   >Redneck (if we ever begin writing Left Behind fanfic, we'll let
>you know)

Dude, don't even joke. That shit scares me. I stumbled across it in a Wal-Mart not long ago and just stood there shivering in abject horror for a few minutes.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Wedge
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 03:11 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Wedge Click to send private message to Wedge Click to add this user to your buddy list  
20. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #19
 
   >>Redneck (if we ever begin writing Left Behind fanfic, we'll let
>>you know)
>
>Dude, don't even joke. That shit scares me. I stumbled across
>it in a Wal-Mart not long ago and just stood there shivering in abject
>horror for a few minutes.

Oooo, your reaction to the sequel ought to be educational... :)

---------------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company
And the tv series...isn't there a Highlander law forbidding sequels of movies that quite obviously end?
---------------------------------


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Rod_H
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 04:02 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Rod_H Click to send private message to Rod_H Click to add this user to your buddy list  
25. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #18
 
   >Redneck (if we ever begin writing Left Behind fanfic, we'll let you know)

What the hoek is Left Behind?

....

STFW at the IMDb

....

Oh, frigging 'ell, it's one of those movies. I agree with Gryphon please, please, don't joke about that.

And Thorne, steer clear of certain stories on the R.A.A.C archives (particularly the BGC directory), if you feel that way about homosexual relationships.

--Rod.H can't handle Nendo-Kata & that many non-GENOM Sexroids.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
19885 posts
Jan-31-02, 04:04 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Gryphon Click to send private message to Gryphon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
26. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #25
 
   >>Redneck (if we ever begin writing Left Behind fanfic, we'll let you know)
>
>What the hoek is Left Behind?
>
>Oh, frigging 'ell, it's one of those movies.

There's a movie?! Aaagh! I was only familiar with it as a set of scary-looking books you see in supermarkets. Gaaah!

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Wedge
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 05:13 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Wedge Click to send private message to Wedge Click to add this user to your buddy list  
32. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #26
 
   >>>Redneck (if we ever begin writing Left Behind fanfic, we'll let you know)
>>
>>What the hoek is Left Behind?
>>
>>Oh, frigging 'ell, it's one of those movies.
>
>There's a movie?! Aaagh! I was only familiar with it as a set
>of scary-looking books you see in supermarkets. Gaaah!

Direct to Video, but made a small theatrical run after that, due to a sort of grass roots advertising campaign. Starring Kirk Cameron. No shit.

I mean, it's not an uninteresting concept--what would you do if the Rapture suddenly happened and a large percentage of the population up and vanished?--but, from everything I've read, they were taking it a touch too seriously for it to be terribly interesting to anyone other than a rather devout Christian. And that's the part that's somewhat unsettling.

See my other post for a link to the sequel. It's a short click from that to read about the tv series (Does the rapture happen every week? Is that like the Korean War lasting for 10 years on MASH?)

---------------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company
And, you know, Kirk Cameron.
---------------------------------


  Printer-friendly page | Top
dbrandon
Charter Member
180 posts
Jan-31-02, 10:24 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail dbrandon Click to send private message to dbrandon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
39. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #32
 
   >Direct to Video, but made a small theatrical run after that, due to a
>sort of grass roots advertising campaign. Starring Kirk Cameron. No
>shit.
>
>I mean, it's not an uninteresting concept--what would you do if
>the Rapture suddenly happened and a large percentage of the population
>up and vanished?--but, from everything I've read, they were taking it
>a touch too seriously for it to be terribly interesting to anyone
>other than a rather devout Christian. And that's the part that's
>somewhat unsettling.
>
>See my other post for a link to the sequel. It's a short click from
>that to read about the tv series (Does the rapture happen every week?
>Is that like the Korean War lasting for 10 years on MASH?)

Heinlein's _Job : A Comedy of Justice_ touches on it in passing.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0345316509/qid=1012490554/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_74_1/103-5997783-5033435

One of Heinlein's better books, IMHO. Of course, that's relative to the rest of Heinlein's books, so personal preferences apply.

Dan Brandon
---------
.sig low, sweet chariot


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Mephronmoderator
Charter Member
1801 posts
Jan-31-02, 10:26 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Mephron Click to send private message to Mephron Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list Click to send message via AOL IM  
40. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #26
 
   >>What the hoek is Left Behind?
>>Oh, frigging 'ell, it's one of those movies.
>
>There's a movie?! Aaagh! I was only familiar with it as a set
>of scary-looking books you see in supermarkets. Gaaah!

It gets worse.

The local Barnes and Noble is carrying the Trade Paperbacks of the the COMIC BOOK SERIES.

Isn't there something in Irritations 4:20 that says "Thou shalt not talk about God and His Works in comics"? OR does it just seem that way sometimes.

--
Geoff Depew - Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Malakite of Lightning and Angel of Tech Support Professionals
(They won't give me LARTs, they say that's restricted to Michael.)

--
Geoff Depew - Darth Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Dark Lord of Sith Tech Support.
"And Remember! Google is your Friend!!"


  Printer-friendly page | Top
trussteam
Member since Aug-9-13
Jan-31-02, 10:33 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail truss Click to send private message to truss Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
41. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #40
 
   >The local Barnes and Noble is carrying the Trade Paperbacks of the the
>COMIC BOOK SERIES.

I'm guessing there's no hentai doujinshi or slashfics, though.

--truss.
though I suppose you never know...


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Mephronmoderator
Charter Member
1801 posts
Jan-31-02, 10:37 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Mephron Click to send private message to Mephron Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list Click to send message via AOL IM  
42. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #41
 
   >I'm guessing there's no hentai doujinshi or slashfics, though.
>
>--truss.
>though I suppose you never know...

Don't give me ideas to release under a pseudonym.

(I'm not a Christian! I don't have this respect for some Middle-Easter tribal patron spirit with delusions of grandeur!)

--
Geoff Depew - Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Malakite of Lightning and Angel of Tech Support Professionals
(They won't give me LARTs, they say that's restricted to Michael.)

--
Geoff Depew - Darth Mephron
Haberdasher to Androids, Dark Lord of Sith Tech Support.
"And Remember! Google is your Friend!!"


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Rod_H
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 10:54 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Rod_H Click to send private message to Rod_H Click to add this user to your buddy list  
44. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #40
 
   >>>What the hoek is Left Behind?
>>>Oh, frigging 'ell, it's one of those movies.
>>
>>There's a movie?! Aaagh! I was only familiar with it as a set
>>of scary-looking books you see in supermarkets. Gaaah!
>
>It gets worse.
>
>The local Barnes and Noble is carrying the Trade Paperbacks of the the
>COMIC BOOK SERIES.
>
Aaack! Ayep, that's worse. I just hope my local Borders doesn't have a copy of it.

>Isn't there something in Irritations 4:20 that says "Thou shalt not
>talk about God and His Works in comics"? OR does it just seem that
>way sometimes.

I don't know, as I've been reading Warren Ellis & trying to track down issues of 'Top 10' (strange version of Norse gods in one issue), NHS, the odd UF source manga, and whatever seems interesting.

--Rod.H (fan of 'Powers')


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Laudre
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 11:08 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Laudre Click to send private message to Laudre Click to add this user to your buddy list  
45. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #44
 
   >I don't know, as I've been reading Warren Ellis & trying to track down
>issues of 'Top 10' (strange version of Norse gods in one issue)

I have a Top 10 TPB with that issue in it. (For those of you who haven't read it, the comic focuses on a police precinct in a city that's populated entirely and purely by superhumans; in this issue, they're called down to the local bar where all the gods (Norse included) hang out, because Baldur's been murdered. Fill in the details; it ends when Baldur comes back to life so that they can play the game where they all throw stuff at him again, and the voodoo-priest cop figures out that it's just a myth cycle.)

-- Sean --
Rabid Crack Weasel #42
http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Sinapus
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 10:48 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Sinapus Click to send private message to Sinapus Click to add this user to your buddy list  
43. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #18
 
   >>...or perhaps not so crypto.
>
>>No, *this* is where I will be narrow-minded and object: (2)
>>Most of these characters having sex are *teenagers*, well under
>>the age of 18. And unmarried, to boot. --Yes yes, I know real-world
>>US statistics indicate kids as young as 12 are engaging in carnal
>>relations, and there's precedent in anime, but I nonetheless carry
>>this silly old-fashioned notion that fiction should *set an
>>example*.
Even if it's artificial. Even if the story's audience
>>isn't the people who *need* the example. <shrug> It's the
>>thought that counts.
>
>Thorne, if we felt like writing messages, we'd write messages.
>
>We write -stories.- Take 'em or leave 'em.
>
>Redneck (if we ever begin writing Left Behind fanfic, we'll let
>you know)

"Well, I was going to try to help in the Ragnarok, but I missed the flight." "So you were-" "Yes, Left Behind." <cue ominous music>

(IIRC, that "Left Behind" book is some Post Rapture series or something like that. Good Xians<tm> vanish, Devil takes over the world, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria, blahblahblah.)

Patrick Chester
"...could you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"


  Printer-friendly page | Top
StaticdashPulse
Charter Member
553 posts
Jan-31-02, 03:18 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail StaticdashPulse Click to send private message to StaticdashPulse Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
21. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #0
 
   >(Phil braces himself for reactions.)

If you're going to quote Uncle, dammit, do it right. You can't just use one "One more thing and expect it to be funny...

One more thing... You complain about all the underage characters having the sex as it were. Would you prefer if Gryphon (300+) was getting it on with Utena and Anthy? Sure, that'd be nasty, but at least there would be a guy in the relationship to balance it out and add maturity.

One more thing... I thought the way that the Kate and Juri scene at the end was handled rather well. Between scenes or between stories, it's all between the lines. Quit complaining.

One more thing... That's how you do an Uncle impersonation.

Static-Pulse
I can stand blue-balled bigots, but not when they invoke Uncle like that.
- the most impulsive post alive
DarkBeast.com


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
19885 posts
Jan-31-02, 03:21 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Gryphon Click to send private message to Gryphon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
22. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #21
 
   >Would you prefer if Gryphon (300+) was
>getting it on with Utena and Anthy? Sure, that'd be nasty,

Hey! He's only Logical 18! What's so nasty about that?

(One of the funny thing about Detianism is that, as one matures and gains experience, one's mental/emotional outlook tends to remain youthful, making it easy to forget just how old one is regarded as being by the people outside one's head. There's a reason being treated as Kate's Dad by Utena makes him feel so old... :)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
StaticdashPulse
Charter Member
553 posts
Jan-31-02, 03:41 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail StaticdashPulse Click to send private message to StaticdashPulse Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
24. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #22
 
   >>Would you prefer if Gryphon (300+) was
>>getting it on with Utena and Anthy? Sure, that'd be nasty,
>
>Hey! He's only Logical 18! What's so nasty about that?

Nothing wrong, I would just feel bad for Corwin if Gryphon got something and he didn't.

Static-Pulse
- the most impulsive post alive
DarkBeast.com


  Printer-friendly page | Top
drakensisthered
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 05:21 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail drakensisthered Click to send private message to drakensisthered Click to add this user to your buddy list  
33. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #0
 
   'crypto'? 'subtext'?

Either go read Bubblegum Pink or get yourself a date. Jeez.

drakensisthered

"I hate my life." - Londo Mollari
"So do I." - G'Kar
"Shut up!" - Londo Mollari


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Rod_H
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 06:29 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Rod_H Click to send private message to Rod_H Click to add this user to your buddy list  
35. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #33
 
   >Either go read Bubblegum Pink or get yourself a date. Jeez.
>
Um...Draken, do we really want to introduce this guy to the fic that made the name Overstreet into a curse word/abreviation on a certain newsgroup?

--Rod.H
"Ahh...flashing green. Green is good?" "No." "Bad?" "Bad." "How bad?" "Very, very bad." Maj. Samantha Carter & Dr. Daniel Jackson, SG-1


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Mister Fnord
Charter Member
294 posts
Jan-31-02, 11:33 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Mister%20Fnord Click to send private message to Mister%20Fnord Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
46. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #35
 
   >>Either go read Bubblegum Pink or get yourself a date. Jeez.
>>
>Um...Draken, do we really want to introduce this guy to the fic that
>made the name Overstreet into a curse word/abreviation on a certain
>newsgroup?

Sure we do! But we need to get the cameras in place first, so we can see the torrents of blood and brain tissue exploding from his eye sockets.


Mr. Fnord, Rabid Crack Weasel #23
--
"Stop your fucking taxi for the Son of God, dickweed!"
-Spider Jerusalem

--
Mr. Fnord


  Printer-friendly page | Top
JeanneHedge
Charter Member
933 posts
Jan-31-02, 06:26 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail JeanneHedge Click to send private message to JeanneHedge Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
74. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #35
 
   >>Either go read Bubblegum Pink or get yourself a date. Jeez.
>>
>Um...Draken, do we really want to introduce this guy to the fic that
>made the name Overstreet into a curse word/abreviation on a certain
>newsgroup?

It isn't a curse word, it's a reflex response! DYO!
(does Larry Mann feel left out? DYM!)

But all that was before the kangaroos arrived... <boing boing boing>
kangaroo info: part 1 and part 2


Regards,
Jeanne

http://www.jhedge.com
http://go.compuserve.com/Anime

Jeanne


Jeanne Hedge
http://www.jhedge.com
1st Courier of the Heavenly Prophets for Tianxia
"Never give up, never surrender!"



  Printer-friendly page | Top
Offsides
Charter Member
1232 posts
Jan-31-02, 06:21 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Offsides Click to send private message to Offsides Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
34. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #0
 
   >(Phil thinks a dose of countervailing criticism is needed at this
>juncture, in the midst of the uniform SoS2:7:Congratulation &
>Approbation. :) Phil takes an intentionally extreme stance. Phil dons
>his asbestos suit.)
>
Dude, asbestos suit or not, you really asked for it. I won't go full out since it mostly seems to be covered already, but really...

>No, *this* is where I will be narrow-minded and object: (2)
>Most of these characters having sex are *teenagers*, well under
>the age of 18. And unmarried, to boot. --Yes yes, I know real-world
>US statistics indicate kids as young as 12 are engaging in carnal
>relations, and there's precedent in anime, but I nonetheless carry
>this silly old-fashioned notion that fiction should *set an
>example*.
Even if it's artificial. Even if the story's audience
>isn't the people who *need* the example. <shrug> It's the
>thought that counts.
>
OK, obviously you have lived a very sheltered life and never hung out with people your own age (assuming you're over the age of 12). Sex is a part of life. Not only that, but sex is a much greater part of childrens' lives than any American adult is willing to admit. You realize that this is one of the few contries out there that considers sex to be a taboo subject, right? Most of the rest of the world laughs at American "sex scandals". (The best example I know of is the Monica Lewinski affair - IIRC, at least one foreign official said that in their country if the head of state wasn't having at least one affair, the people would worry about him!)

Kids have sex. Period. Unfortunately it's people like you who don't believe in talking about it that are causing the real problems. Imagine a world where kids could feel free to talk about sex, ask questions about sex, and get help in dealing with sex. You know what would happen? Teen pregnancy rates would plumment. Kids who are having to deal with situations like Date Rape by hiding it would be less likely to suffer in silence, assuming they weren't able to prevent the rape in the first place. Teenagers would have one less thing to stress over than they already have just for being teenagers.

Yes, you've hit one of my buttons - deal. Just remember when it comes time for you to fumblingly talk to your kids about sex - the biggest cause of your discomfort is the fact that your parents weren't comfortable talking to you, and sex wasn't something you could talk about openly. Then see how you feel...

><uncle>ONE MORE THING!</uncle> --I have another objection, an
>idiosyncracy you could call it, against: (3) Sex in the stories I
>read: specifically, anything describing before, after, and especially
>-- and thank the Muses that EPU doesn't do *this* -- during.
>(I can name SF pro-authors who are horrible horrible offenders.) By
>the end of "SoS2:7:Ceremony & Celebration", Kate and Juri have
>apparently consummated their relationship. That just creeps me out.
>Honestly. Couldn't they do it *between* stories? And for
>balance, yes, the first encounters in UF1 creeped me out too. For
>reference: the scene in "Hopelessly Lost" when Gryph forces himself to
>drink coffee to dispel the image of Zoner with Sylia.
>
Um... Gryphon has never been explicit during sex scenes, and yet he's also treated them as an important part of the story (see above about life). The fact that he's not afraid to write about the emotional impact of characters sexual relationships just proves he's a lot more open-minded about sex than you are - in spite of his self-professed Puritanical background. If you don't want to read it, don't read it - just don't ask for help understanding things that you skipped. Over the years I've learned one thing about Gryphon's evolved writing style - if he writes it, he thinks it's important, and therefore I should probably read it if I want to know whats going on.

My suggestion is that you get some open-minded friends (at least on the issue of sex), hang out with them for a while, and hope your mind gets opened up a bit more. There's a lot of things out there that I personally have no desire to get involved with, but it doesn't mean I'm not willing to think about them in proper context.

Offsides

It says a lot about this country that Sex is considered taboo, while murder and death gets regular coverage on the evening news.
-- Me
#include <sex.h>

#91;...#93; in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #pi;
#include <stdsig.h>


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Phantom
Charter Member
154 posts
Jan-31-02, 07:51 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Phantom Click to send private message to Phantom Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list Click to send message via AOL IM  
37. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #0
 
   >...or perhaps not so crypto.

Definitely no Cryptic unless your an Idiot. But that is what makes
the stories so much more robust and real.

>
>(Phil thinks a dose of countervailing criticism is needed at this
>juncture, in the midst of the uniform SoS2:7:Congratulation &
>Approbation. :) Phil takes an intentionally extreme stance. Phil dons
>his asbestos suit.)

I certainly hope this was done for the sake of a 'Devil's Advocate'
type of role and not really trying to force your personal moral stance
on a story that sets its OWN moral stance that may or may not reflect
the authors personal views. The story represents the Character's
views and that of the universe(s) they live in.

>
>Kaitlyn and Juri. Utena and Anthy. Amanda and her bodyguard. Azalynn
>and Liza. The Centauri guy. And the scene in SoS1 (Paris IIRC) when
>Kate sees the "Roman-nosed" lady and the Nebari girl (and I think, "Uh
>oh, Farscape!" and then reflexively panic "NOOO! Aeryn and Chiana
>can't be lesbians! John will be devastated!" and then attempt to relax
>and tell myself that of course it's not *them* in particular --
>right?).

Kaitlyn & Juri: Look what happened to Kaitlyn when she was so young
(both years and emotionally). She may change, she might not. But
either way She loves Juri. I do not know anything about Juri.
Utena & Anthy: See RGU & SOS:S2M7 for explanations IT IS 100% CLEAR.
The only "Homosexual" relationship I do not fully understand is the
Liza & Azalynn one. I did not understand the motivation completely,
but I do not have anything against it. (I was hoping Mac & Liza would
get together:)

>
>Not that I'm narrow-mindedly objecting to alternative lifestyles
>chosen by fictional characters, just... (1) Why? Is there any
>particular *reason* EPU decided to make (mostly female) homo-
>and bisexuality a major theme at this time? Did it suddenly become
>*fashionable*? Or did characters just *evolve* that
>way, as they are wont to do?

Well it certainly seems that you are narrow minded by the end of your
post. I do not think the EPU writers were actively trying to write
the characters any particular way. They have evolved into what you
see in SOS:S2M7.

>
>No, *this* is where I will be narrow-minded and object: (2)
>Most of these characters having sex are *teenagers*, well under
>the age of 18. And unmarried, to boot. --Yes yes, I know real-world
>US statistics indicate kids as young as 12 are engaging in carnal
>relations, and there's precedent in anime, but I nonetheless carry
>this silly old-fashioned notion that fiction should *set an
>example*.
Even if it's artificial. Even if the story's audience
>isn't the people who *need* the example. <shrug> It's the
>thought that counts.

(Entering Literary Evaluation Mode)
The characters are emotionally more mature than most 30+ adults.
SOS does set an excellent example of how a family should care about
thier children. The stories depict what true friendship and loyalty
should be like. They also teach tolerance and understanding instead
or fear, bigotry and hatred. The stories show true love & compassion
at it's best. All of these are important aspects that are missing in
most of modern America. I do not believe Gryphon & EPU ever set out
to write a morality play or social commentary when they started SOS,
but they have made a good example. And in my opinion, because EPU
did not start out to preach ANYTHING with SOS, but they the stories
themselves developed these themes on their own makes it that much
better of a story and a very well written work of art.
(Exiting Literary Evaluation Mode)

>
><uncle>ONE MORE THING!</uncle> --I have another objection, an
>idiosyncracy you could call it, against: (3) Sex in the stories I
>read: specifically, anything describing before, after, and especially
>-- and thank the Muses that EPU doesn't do *this* -- during.
>(I can name SF pro-authors who are horrible horrible offenders.) By
>the end of "SoS2:7:Ceremony & Celebration", Kate and Juri have
>apparently consummated their relationship. That just creeps me out.
>Honestly. Couldn't they do it *between* stories? And for
>balance, yes, the first encounters in UF1 creeped me out too. For
>reference: the scene in "Hopelessly Lost" when Gryph forces himself to
>drink coffee to dispel the image of Zoner with Sylia.
>
>(Phil braces himself for reactions.)

Your Idiosyncrasy:
What do you watch on TV or at the Movies? They have much more
explicit before, during, & after scenes/information, etc than ANYTHING
I have read from EPU. EPU has had the MOST Tastefully written Sexual
relations I have EVER seen. They treat sex and the characters with
respect and care. They so far have only given enough detail to evoke
the image and do not go into gratuitous, unnecessary detail of the
encounters. This is something that few writers seem to have any more.

As a Side note: Gryphon & EPU crew Thank you very much for the stories
you have given to us. I have enjoyed watching the characters, writers,
and stories evolve from the original UF to SOS. You have a lot of
courage to put something so personal as your stories in a public forum.
Thank you and I look forward to your future works.
The Phantom


"When you have eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains,
however improbable, must be the
truth." - Sherlock Holmes


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Griever
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 11:36 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Griever Click to send private message to Griever Click to add this user to your buddy list  
47. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #0
 
   <chuckles> I always get a kick out of reading this kid of 'fanmail' . Especially when somebody sends the stuff to the Forum ... It's just _so_ enjoyable to see it ripped apart by people who are creative about it to boot ^^.

Oh well , there's a light at the end of every tunnel I guess .
In this case it was the EPU Forum Express (where the rabid crack weasels and rabbits roam , yeah).

-Griever
Keep in mind , I'm not saying that there should be _more_ messages of the sort . I just enjoy seeing them shot down ^^

PS. And I still crack when I think about Beld being lesbian .


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Shadowhavoc
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 11:53 AM (EDT)
Click to EMail Shadowhavoc Click to send private message to Shadowhavoc Click to add this user to your buddy list  
48. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #47
 
   ><chuckles> I always get a kick out of reading this kid of 'fanmail' .
>Especially when somebody sends the stuff to the Forum ... It's just
>_so_ enjoyable to see it ripped apart by people who are creative about
>it to boot ^^.
>
>Oh well , there's a light at the end of every tunnel I guess .
>In this case it was the EPU Forum Express (where the rabid crack
>weasels and rabbits roam , yeah).
>
> -Griever
>Keep in mind , I'm not saying that there should be _more_ messages of
>the sort . I just enjoy seeing them shot down ^^

Yeah well, when Thorne made that post I knew a heap of Blyxshotk was gonna fall down on his head. Interesting, he hasn't made a reply yet.

Hnh.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Griever
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 12:16 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Griever Click to send private message to Griever Click to add this user to your buddy list  
49. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #48
 
   >Yeah well, when Thorne made that post I knew a heap of Blyxshotk was
>gonna fall down on his head. Interesting, he hasn't made a reply yet.
>

No , not really . Either he just posted and didn't bother checking , or checked and saw what the others' views were and didn't see any use in even _trying_ to back up his post up with more 'moralistic' mumbo-jumbo (in which case thank goddess .) , or ...

-Griever
hmm , btw. Gryph , what does it take to get booted off the Forum user list ?
Just in case .


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Shadowhavoc
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 12:22 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Shadowhavoc Click to send private message to Shadowhavoc Click to add this user to your buddy list  
50. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #49
 
   >>Yeah well, when Thorne made that post I knew a heap of Blyxshotk was
>>gonna fall down on his head. Interesting, he hasn't made a reply yet.
>>
>
>No , not really . Either he just posted and didn't bother checking ,
>or checked and saw what the others' views were and didn't see any use
>in even _trying_ to back up his post up with more 'moralistic'
>mumbo-jumbo (in which case thank goddess .) , or ...

Pity, I had a good rant to throw at him if he did try to defend himself. He'd probably play a decent Paladin in a D&D game, though; hardly anybody likes paladins.


> -Griever
>hmm , btw. Gryph , what does it take to get booted off the Forum user
>list ?
>Just in case .

Simple, just piss him off big time.

Hnh.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Griever
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 05:13 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Griever Click to send private message to Griever Click to add this user to your buddy list  
64. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #50
 
   >Pity, I had a good rant to throw at him if he did try to defend
>himself. He'd probably play a decent Paladin in a D&D game, though;
>hardly anybody likes paladins.
>

Oh , I don't know , I rather like Bahzell (sp?) ... although that isn't AD&D and he's not really your typical paladin either . Oh well .

-Griever
But in any case , better a paladin than an inquisitioner .
Or *shudder* a witch hunter ...


  Printer-friendly page | Top
sideways
Charter Member
164 posts
Jan-31-02, 12:24 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail sideways Click to send private message to sideways Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list Click to send message via AOL IM Click to send message via ICQ  
51. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #49
 
   >hmm , btw. Gryph , what does it take to get booted off the Forum user
>list ?
I'm not Gryph, so don't take this as canon, but he doesn't get off work for a while, so . . .

Gryph will only boot a person (and I've only actually seen this happen once, although I didn't pay attention for a while) if that person repeatedly and shamelessly pisses him off.

>Just in case .
In case what? You're not nearly annoying enough, and from what I've seen, too smart to make an effort to be.

Mike Thedford
Dark Nation
Dictator at Large

Mike Thedford
Boy Housewife


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Shadowhavoc
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 12:32 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Shadowhavoc Click to send private message to Shadowhavoc Click to add this user to your buddy list  
52. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #51
 
   >>hmm , btw. Gryph , what does it take to get booted off the Forum user
>>list ?
>I'm not Gryph, so don't take this as canon, but he doesn't get off
>work for a while, so . . .
>
>Gryph will only boot a person (and I've only actually seen this happen
>once, although I didn't pay attention for a while) if that person
>repeatedly and shamelessly pisses him off.

Who was stupid enough to do that?

Hnh.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
donnerjackadmin
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 12:35 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail donnerjack Click to send private message to donnerjack Click to add this user to your buddy list  
53. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #52
 
   >Who was stupid enough to do that?

Lostboy, IIRC, though whoever mentioned it may be thinking of someone else. Lostboy had beena repeat offender of annoying Gryph, I think under a different username even. *Shrug* Not bright, either way.

Donnerjack
--
reality@peoplearestrange.net
BOFH to www.astralstudios.com


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Offsides
Charter Member
1232 posts
Jan-31-02, 12:44 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Offsides Click to send private message to Offsides Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
54. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #53
 
   >>Who was stupid enough to do that?
>
>Lostboy, IIRC, though whoever mentioned it may be thinking of someone
>else. Lostboy had beena repeat offender of annoying Gryph, I think
>under a different username even. *Shrug* Not bright, either way.
>
He was a Troll, he Trolled a bit to long and hard, and gor turned to stone for his efforts... But in that case there were several forum users who privately had requested his removal, not just the general chatter on the board.

Besides, while I seriously dilike and disagree with his point of view, as long as he learns from the discussion in this thread I see no reason to boot this guy. Posting an unpopular opinion is one thing, Trolling is a totaly different level.

Of course, when it comes down to it, Gryph, Zoner and Truss have the final word on whatever happens here...

Offsides

Unemployed netadmin seeking job... so what else is new?
#include <trolls.h>

#91;...#93; in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #pi;
#include <stdsig.h>


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Laudre
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 12:49 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Laudre Click to send private message to Laudre Click to add this user to your buddy list  
55. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #54
 
   >>Lostboy, IIRC, though whoever mentioned it may be thinking of someone
>>else.

Lostboy was an unrepentant and repetitive troll. Gryph finally got sick of him and banned him after he trolled on the UF board.

OTOH, while thorne's post rings of homophobia, it's not actually a troll, just a genuine attempt at criticism (that doesn't really succeed).

-- Sean --
Rabid Crack Weasel #42
http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Shadowhavoc
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 01:11 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Shadowhavoc Click to send private message to Shadowhavoc Click to add this user to your buddy list  
56. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #54
 
   >>>Who was stupid enough to do that?
>>
>>Lostboy, IIRC, though whoever mentioned it may be thinking of someone
>>else. Lostboy had beena repeat offender of annoying Gryph, I think
>>under a different username even. *Shrug* Not bright, either way.
>>
>He was a Troll, he Trolled a bit to long and hard, and gor turned to
>stone for his efforts... But in that case there were several forum
>users who privately had requested his removal, not just the general
>chatter on the board.
>
>Besides, while I seriously dilike and disagree with his point of view,
>as long as he learns from the discussion in this thread I see no
>reason to boot this guy. Posting an unpopular opinion is one thing,
>Trolling is a totaly different level.
>
>Of course, when it comes down to it, Gryph, Zoner and Truss have the
>final word on whatever happens here...
>
Well I'm not gonna go vote for his removal (like ye said, his point of view), I have absolutely no patience with anybody holding an incomprehensible phobia or prejudice against homosexuals or those of a different ethnic background.

Hmph.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
19885 posts
Jan-31-02, 03:21 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Gryphon Click to send private message to Gryphon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
58. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #49
 
   >hmm , btw. Gryph , what does it take to get booted off the Forum user
>list ?

More than this.

At this point I find myself believing that Thorne really meant what he was saying - he wasn't just posting it to start a pissing contest, which is the hallmark of the troll. He has, I think, a genuine issue.

As it happens, it's a stupid genuine issue, but there you are. Sincerity counts for something, anyway.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Griever
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 05:08 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Griever Click to send private message to Griever Click to add this user to your buddy list  
63. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #58
 
   >>hmm , btw. Gryph , what does it take to get booted off the Forum user
>>list ?
>
>More than this.
>
>At this point I find myself believing that Thorne really meant what he
>was saying - he wasn't just posting it to start a pissing contest,
>which is the hallmark of the troll. He has, I think, a genuine issue.
>

Right. Just to avoid any misunderstandings ... that wasn't some sort of veiled suggestion on my side to boot him , mind you , or any indication that I hoped he got booted for it . I was simply curious as to what it would take for one to get booted as a general inquiry . Seeing as that got pretty much cleared up in some of the other posts here ...

-Griever
going , going , gone ...


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Archr
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 03:09 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Archr Click to send private message to Archr Click to add this user to your buddy list  
57. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jan-31-02 AT 03:12 PM (EST)

>...or perhaps not so crypto.

Not sure I understand what he means by 'crypto', but I think that has been covered.

>(Phil thinks a dose of countervailing criticism is needed at this
>juncture, in the midst of the uniform SoS2:7:Congratulation &
>Approbation. :) Phil takes an intentionally extreme stance. Phil dons
>his asbestos suit.)

Um... why? Why would you deliberately take such a stance? Did you think the story was getting too good a review and you had to come up with extreme criticism to balance it?

>Kaitlyn and Juri. Utena and Anthy. Amanda and her bodyguard. Azalynn
>and Liza. The Centauri guy. And the scene in SoS1 (Paris IIRC) when
>Kate sees the "Roman-nosed" lady and the Nebari girl (and I think, "Uh
>oh, Farscape!" and then reflexively panic "NOOO! Aeryn and Chiana
>can't be lesbians! John will be devastated!" and then attempt to relax
>and tell myself that of course it's not *them* in particular --
>right?).
>
>Not that I'm narrow-mindedly objecting to alternative lifestyles
>chosen by fictional characters, just... (1) Why? Is there any
>particular *reason* EPU decided to make (mostly female) homo-
>and bisexuality a major theme at this time? Did it suddenly become
>*fashionable*? Or did characters just *evolve* that
>way, as they are wont to do?

Actually, to be honest, it was never a 'fashion'. The Avatar characters of UF began their star-spanning adventures as non-conformist college students. Having read UF-1 recently, that point is made. From what I read there, and what I inferred from that and the authors notes, they were the (please pardon my labeling) oddballs. Anyone who was unconventional in some way ended up hanging with them. They embraced the uniqueness. (stopping before getting preachy here about a place I never visited or have seen. Sorry Gryph.)

>No, *this* is where I will be narrow-minded and object: (2)
>Most of these characters having sex are *teenagers*, well under
>the age of 18. And unmarried, to boot. --Yes yes, I know real-world
>US statistics indicate kids as young as 12 are engaging in carnal
>relations, and there's precedent in anime, but I nonetheless carry
>this silly old-fashioned notion that fiction should *set an
>example*.
Even if it's artificial. Even if the story's audience
>isn't the people who *need* the example. <shrug> It's the
>thought that counts.

Well, friend, as some others have said, EPU DOES set an example. Tolerance. Loyalty. Imagination. Hope. Courage. The desire to keep fun alive in a world that seems to abound with people and situations that want to snuff it out.

><uncle>ONE MORE THING!</uncle> --I have another objection, an
>idiosyncracy you could call it, against: (3) Sex in the stories I
>read: specifically, anything describing before, after, and especially
>-- and thank the Muses that EPU doesn't do *this* -- during.
>(I can name SF pro-authors who are horrible horrible offenders.) By
>the end of "SoS2:7:Ceremony & Celebration", Kate and Juri have
>apparently consummated their relationship. That just creeps me out.
>Honestly. Couldn't they do it *between* stories? And for
>balance, yes, the first encounters in UF1 creeped me out too. For
>reference: the scene in "Hopelessly Lost" when Gryph forces himself to
>drink coffee to dispel the image of Zoner with Sylia.

No apparently about it. Question, WHAT exactly did you see written there? Did you see anything described in excruciatingly explicit detail? Did you see more than a few paragraphs that gave no doubt what was happening but left the exact details to your own imagination? I remember seeing the latter. I remember seeing a situation with people who knew what they were doing, did not coerce each other, but were sharing themselves with the one they love. I see nothing wrong at all.

>(Phil braces himself for reactions.)

Well, here is my reaction. I am in the Navy, so of course I have heard most of the homosexual smart-ass remarks before (1200 sailors go out, 600 couples come back, and so forth). I have learned a few things in my career and this has stuck with me for the lastfew years: I don't care what you think about politics, religion or relationships. As long as it does not affect your ability to work, how you deal with others in the work place, and how others deal with you, I do not care if you are straight Republican Christian or any other combination of labels. I have no room for them, nor for intolerance like I read above.

Sh*t, I seem to be getting off on a rant. My major thing is this: I like Eyrie. I like what they write. I like that for a brief time I am placed in a world that has good people doing good things and actually wanting to be nice to each other. Given the option, I would move there in a heartbeat. Gryph, Zoner, Truss and all of you, I thank you for making this sailor's life less dreary, and giving me wonderful dreams of a world I would like to see, even if itwould be a serious copyright infringement.

Keep dreaming. I still do.

Archr
The Damned Sagittarius

"If you are going to have delusions, why not go for the really satisfying ones?" -Marcus Cole


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
19885 posts
Jan-31-02, 03:24 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Gryphon Click to send private message to Gryphon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
59. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #57
 
   >>...or perhaps not so crypto.
>
>Not sure I understand what he means by 'crypto', but I think that has
>been covered.

"crypto" is a label that pseudo-intellectuals like to use when they mean "hidden" - it makes them seem smarter.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Archr
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 03:27 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Archr Click to send private message to Archr Click to add this user to your buddy list  
60. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #59
 
   >>>...or perhaps not so crypto.
>>
>>Not sure I understand what he means by 'crypto', but I think that has
>>been covered.
>
>"crypto" is a label that pseudo-intellectuals like to use when they
>mean "hidden" - it makes them seem smarter.
>
>--G.
>-><-
>Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
>Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

Thanks. Now I know how others feel when I start to explain how to light off a steam plant and they have not even looked at one of the Tech manuals.

Archr
The Damned Sagittarius

"If you are going to have delusions, why not go for the really satisfying ones?" -Marcus Cole


  Printer-friendly page | Top
bparanial
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 03:28 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail bparanial Click to send private message to bparanial Click to add this user to your buddy list  
61. "This has gotten *much* more attention than this really deserves, quiaff?"
In response to message #0
 
   Could someone in charge be so nice as to lock this thread?

Pretty Please With Sugar On Top.

Brad.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
19885 posts
Jan-31-02, 03:36 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Gryphon Click to send private message to Gryphon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
62. "RE: This has gotten *much* more attention than this really deserves, quiaff?"
In response to message #61
 
   >Could someone in charge be so nice as to lock this thread?
>
>Pretty Please With Sugar On Top.

The original poster hasn't even had an opportunity to respond to the rebuttals he's gotten. That wouldn't be very nice of me.

If it goes into another round, well, we'll see.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
junipermoderator
Charter Member
514 posts
Jan-31-02, 05:54 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail juniper Click to send private message to juniper Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
66. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #0
 
   >(Phil braces himself for reactions.)

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah....

Oh dear, I haven't been this amused by homophobic posturing in a good long while. I think this thread is being taken -much- too seriously.

Oh my.

<wipes tears from her eyes, continues to giggle about the whole thing>

Even if it wasn't written tongue-in-cheek, I choose to take it so. Dear Goddess, that's funny. Crypto-Lesbian subtext. Heeheeheeheeheehee...

I can't be a rabid crack weasel, I actually write this stuff. But I have found my calling in life! I must become one of the Eyrie Crypto-Lesbians!

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahah....

-- Juniper
Eyrie Productions Hot Crypto-Lesbian-on-Samurai-Chick Action HO!


Juniper
Rampaging Karateka Crypto-Kwavu'b Contributing Editor (and Moderator)
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited
Because why be ordinary in your choice of hobbies?


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
19885 posts
Jan-31-02, 05:59 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Gryphon Click to send private message to Gryphon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
67. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #66
 
   >I can't be a rabid crack weasel, I actually write this stuff. But I
>have found my calling in life! I must become one of the Eyrie
>Crypto-Lesbians!

OK. I'll buy you a book on PGP.

--G.
accommodating editor
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
junipermoderator
Charter Member
514 posts
Jan-31-02, 06:02 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail juniper Click to send private message to juniper Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
68. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #67
 
   >>I can't be a rabid crack weasel, I actually write this stuff. But I
>>have found my calling in life! I must become one of the Eyrie
>>Crypto-Lesbians!
>
>OK. I'll buy you a book on PGP.

Oo! Oo! Does that mean I get to put my PGP signature at the end of every story I co-author with you? So that everybody knows it came from ME and NOBODY ELSE?

Wow! I'm a L33t Crypto-Lesbian now, aren't I?

-- Juniper
Still laughing...


Juniper
Rampaging Karateka Crypto-Kwavu'b Contributing Editor (and Moderator)
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited
Because why be ordinary in your choice of hobbies?


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
19885 posts
Jan-31-02, 06:04 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Gryphon Click to send private message to Gryphon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
69. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #68
 
   >>>I can't be a rabid crack weasel, I actually write this stuff. But I
>>>have found my calling in life! I must become one of the Eyrie
>>>Crypto-Lesbians!
>>
>>OK. I'll buy you a book on PGP.
>
>Oo! Oo! Does that mean I get to put my PGP signature at the end of
>every story I co-author with you? So that everybody knows it came

<zorak>
Um... no.
</zorak>

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Laudre
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 06:13 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Laudre Click to send private message to Laudre Click to add this user to your buddy list  
71. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #68
 
   >>>I can't be a rabid crack weasel, I actually write this stuff. But I
>>>have found my calling in life! I must become one of the Eyrie
>>>Crypto-Lesbians!
>>
>>OK. I'll buy you a book on PGP.
>
>Oo! Oo! Does that mean I get to put my PGP signature at the end of
>every story I co-author with you? So that everybody knows it came
>from ME and NOBODY ELSE?
>
>Wow! I'm a L33t Crypto-Lesbian now, aren't I?

No... to acquire true l33tn355, one must use GnuPG, because then your encryption app isn't controlled by The Man.

-- Sean --
Rabid Crack Weasel #42 (and joking, mostly)
http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process


  Printer-friendly page | Top
junipermoderator
Charter Member
514 posts
Jan-31-02, 06:21 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail juniper Click to send private message to juniper Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
72. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #71
 
   >>Oo! Oo! Does that mean I get to put my PGP signature at the end of
>>every story I co-author with you? So that everybody knows it came
>>from ME and NOBODY ELSE?
>>
>>Wow! I'm a L33t Crypto-Lesbian now, aren't I?
>
>No... to acquire true l33tn355, one must use GnuPG, because then your
>encryption app isn't controlled by The Man.

And to be a truly L33t crypto-lesbian I must also be a RAMPAGING SLAVERING FEMINIST, right?

Right?

After all...
<tongue very much in cheek>DOWN WITH MEN! MEN ARE EVIL!</tongue in cheek>

-- Juniper
cocks her head to one side and does the dumb-blond Sailor Venus pose


Juniper
Rampaging Karateka Crypto-Kwavu'b Contributing Editor (and Moderator)
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited
Because why be ordinary in your choice of hobbies?


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Laudre
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 06:35 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Laudre Click to send private message to Laudre Click to add this user to your buddy list  
75. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #72
 
   >And to be a truly L33t crypto-lesbian I must also be a RAMPAGING
>SLAVERING FEMINIST, right?
<snip>
>-- Juniper
>cocks her head to one side and does the dumb-blond Sailor Venus
>pose

This juxtaposition of images has me flashing back to bad Bishouju Senshi Sailor Moon yuri fanfic, only with some modern bull-dykish motifs layered on top.

I'm gonna have some weirdass dreams tonight.

-- Sean --
...so long as it's not "Artemis' Lover"...
Rabid Crack Weasel #42
http://www.thebrokenlink.org The Broken Link 4.0 is live!
"All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'." -- Terry Pratchett
Follow my random thoughts
Follow my creative process


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Khirsah
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 10:53 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Khirsah Click to send private message to Khirsah Click to add this user to your buddy list  
79. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #72
 
   <snip>
>-- Juniper
>cocks her head to one side and does the dumb-blond Sailor Venus
>pose

*very quietly and peacefully sits down on the floor, and proceeds to shatter into godzillion pieces...*

<Grey> Ah, great. You went and broke the main personality! Hey, Cypher, come help me glue the Mighty Lizard back together. Stick the Apathetic One in charge of the body for a bit.

-Khirsah, killed by a Juniper-


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Wedge
Charter Member
Jan-31-02, 06:10 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Wedge Click to send private message to Wedge Click to add this user to your buddy list  
70. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #66
 
   >I can't be a rabid crack weasel, I actually write this stuff. But I
>have found my calling in life! I must become one of the Eyrie
>Crypto-Lesbians!

This fall on FOX.

---------------------------------
Chad Collier
Digital Bitch
J. Random VFX Company
Man, who stocks your green room? All we get are Red Vines...
---------------------------------


  Printer-friendly page | Top
BobSchroeck
Charter Member
2215 posts
Jan-31-02, 10:16 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail BobSchroeck Click to send private message to BobSchroeck Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
78. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #66
 
   >I can't be a rabid crack weasel, I actually write this stuff. But I
>have found my calling in life! I must become one of the Eyrie
>Crypto-Lesbians!

Wouldn't crypto-lesbian be something like "mftajbo"?

-- Bob, who is absurdly proud that he can do a shift-one substitution cypher in his head
(Proud member of the Legion of Rabid Crack Weasels)
---------------
Years ago, when trying to invoke the mysterious forces of the universe, you said, "Abracadabra." Today you say, "Hello, tech support?" -- Cecil Adams

-- Bob
-------------------
My race is pacifist and does not believe in war. We kill only out of personal spite.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Offsides
Charter Member
1232 posts
Jan-31-02, 10:54 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Offsides Click to send private message to Offsides Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
80. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #78
 
   >Wouldn't crypto-lesbian be something like "mftajbo"?
>
>-- Bob, who is absurdly proud that he can do a shift-one substitution
>cypher in his head

Yeah, except it would be "mftcjbo"... :)

>(Proud member of the Legion of Rabid Crack Weasels)

I'd join, but that would mean I'd have to be a bit less rabid and more patient than I am... :)

Offsides

Unemployed netadmin seeking job... so what else is new?
#include <patience.h>

#91;...#93; in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.
-- David Ben Gurion
EPU RCW #pi;
#include <stdsig.h>


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Matrix Dragon
Charter Member
1759 posts
Jan-31-02, 07:43 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Matrix%20Dragon Click to send private message to Matrix%20Dragon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
76. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #0
 
   >(Phil thinks a dose of countervailing criticism is needed at this
>juncture, in the midst of the uniform SoS2:7:Congratulation &
>Approbation. :) Phil takes an intentionally extreme stance. Phil dons
>his asbestos suit.)

You need more then Asbestos.

>Not that I'm narrow-mindedly objecting to alternative lifestyles
>chosen by fictional characters, just... (1) Why? Is there any
>particular *reason* EPU decided to make (mostly female) homo-
>and bisexuality a major theme at this time? Did it suddenly become
>*fashionable*? Or did characters just *evolve* that
>way, as they are wont to do?

Uh, Wakaba and Saionji? Miki and Dorothy? Hell, Ben and Kei, Zoner and Yuri? A good deal of the characters are straight ya know. Hell, the only woman Utena loves is Anthy (She loves the person, not the body).

>No, *this* is where I will be narrow-minded and object: (2)

Actually, the whole post is.

>Most of these characters having sex are *teenagers*, well under
>the age of 18. And unmarried, to boot. --Yes yes, I know real-world
>US statistics indicate kids as young as 12 are engaging in carnal
>relations, and there's precedent in anime, but I nonetheless carry
>this silly old-fashioned notion that fiction should *set an
>example*.
Even if it's artificial. Even if the story's audience
>isn't the people who *need* the example. <shrug> It's the
>thought that counts.

Why? They all practise safe sex and actually care for one another. I don't have a problem with it. No one else seems to have a problem with it. In fact, from what I've seen on the Forum, the only person objecting to this is <u>you</U>!

><uncle>ONE MORE THING!</uncle> --I have another objection, an
>idiosyncracy you could call it, against: (3) Sex in the stories I
>read: specifically, anything describing before, after, and especially
>-- and thank the Muses that EPU doesn't do *this* -- during.
>(I can name SF pro-authors who are horrible horrible offenders.) By
>the end of "SoS2:7:Ceremony & Celebration", Kate and Juri have
>apparently consummated their relationship. That just creeps me out.
>Honestly. Couldn't they do it *between* stories? And for
>balance, yes, the first encounters in UF1 creeped me out too. For
>reference: the scene in "Hopelessly Lost" when Gryph forces himself to
>drink coffee to dispel the image of Zoner with Sylia.

First, HL isn't part of UF. And did Ben describe it in graphic detail? No. He mentioned it (Although the statement 'I guess I've found another circumstance under which I don't stutter' broke me) in a short bit at the end of the movement. After what Carpenter did to her several years ago, Kate's had an understandable fear of crossing that boundary. This was a very important development for Kate, something that couldn't just be dumped 'between stories' as you want.

If you don't like the way the Symphony is going, then you don't have to read it. No one is forcing you to. The way these people love is part of their characters. If you want bland emotionless characters, go watch Dragon Ball.

Sweet Skuld, this sort of homophobic bullshit really pisses me off....

Matrix Dragon
"You will know pain... and you will know fear... and then, at long last, you will finish dying."
- Anthy Himemiya, Tower Shrouded in Frost

Matrix Dragon, J. Random Nutter


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Chris Redfield
Charter Member
255 posts
Jan-31-02, 08:04 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Chris%20Redfield Click to send private message to Chris%20Redfield Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list Click to send message via ICQ  
77. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #0
 
   >No, *this* is where I will be narrow-minded and object: (2)
>Most of these characters having sex are *teenagers*, well under
>the age of 18. And unmarried, to boot. --Yes yes, I know real-world
>US statistics indicate kids as young as 12 are engaging in carnal
>relations, and there's precedent in anime, but I nonetheless carry
>this silly old-fashioned notion that fiction should *set an
>example*.
Even if it's artificial. Even if the story's audience
>isn't the people who *need* the example. <shrug> It's the
>thought that counts.

>(Phil braces himself for reactions.)

You're welcome to your bias of course, but I have to refute something. Kate and Juri in particular are -spectacular- role models for a young relationship. Despite having all the opportunity and approval to engage in carnal relations at any time, they wait through a good portion of a year, until a time comes where they -know- that the action is an expression of their feelings for one another before they consumate their relationship. If I were to ever have children (unlikely as my wife and I are both in favor of zero population growth... although we may adopt some day), I can only hope that they would be capable of such restraint in their sexuality.

Apologies for increasing the size of this bloated thread.

-----------------------------------
Chris can't handle subjective morality

-------------------------------------
Chris can't handle chemicals


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
19885 posts
Jan-31-02, 10:57 PM (EDT)
Click to EMail Gryphon Click to send private message to Gryphon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
81. "RE: SoS's crypto-lesbian subtext..."
In response to message #0
 
   All right, well, 80 posts, almost 24 hours, and no response from Mr. Thorne. I guess I'll lock this puppy, and if he wants to rebut, he can cut-n-paste into a new thread.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor in Chief, Netadmin
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/

-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


  Printer-friendly page | Top

Conferences | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

[ YUM ] [ BIG ] [ ??!? ] [ RANT ] [ GNDN ] [ STORE ] [ FORUM ] GOTW ] [ VAULT ]

version 3.3 © 2001
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited
Benjamin D. Hutchins
E P U (Colour)