[ EPU Foyer ] [ Lab and Grill ] [ Bonus Theater!! ] [ Rhetorical Questions ] [ CSRANTronix ] [ GNDN ] [ Subterranean Vault ] [ Discussion Forum ]

Eyrie Productions, Unlimited

Subject: "Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
Printer-friendly copy    
Conferences Gun of the Week Topic #5
Reading Topic #5
Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
18561 posts
Feb-20-17, 11:30 PM (EST)
Click to EMail Gryphon Click to send private message to Gryphon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
"Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells"
 
   LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-17 AT 11:33 PM (EST)
 
Because the next Gun of the Week is going to be a shotgun, I thought I'd burn a few column inches and talk about shotgun ammunition in general before we get stuck in. Starting with a bonus Elder Days Story Time fragment, because why not?

Many years ago, on one of the campus newsgroups at WPI, a few of us got into a colossal flamewar with some dude who claimed to be a firearms expert and who, based on his posts, knew basically nothing. One of his most insistent claims, of which he steadfastly and with increasing vehemence declined to be disabused, was that he possessed (illegally, on campus) a ".12-gauge shotgun", and that those of us who told him the decimal point was misplaced there were idiots.

(This is the guy, BTW, who originated the GweepCo joke "reply if you want, I usually respond with my fists." Nowadays he's probably one of those creeps who contrive to send the SWAT team to the homes of people who disagree with him on Reddit.)

Anyway, here's why what he was saying was stupid. It's true that the calibers of many cartridges, particularly those developed in the United States and Britain, are designated in decimal inches. A .45-caliber bullet, for instance, will have a nominal diameter somewhere in the neighborhood of 45 hundredths of an inch. (They're rarely exactly as specified.) The smallest such caliber you are ever likely to encounter in a firearm is .177, which is an absurdly small projectile.

Now let's consider, for a moment, the bore of a 12-gauge shotgun. It is nearly three-quarters of an inch in diameter. Not twelve-hundredths of one. This is because, with the exception of the teeny .410 (not "410 gauge"), shotguns are not traditionally measured by caliber; they're measured in gauge, and gauge is one of those weird systems of measurement that only the English could have thought was a sensible way to do things.

Basically, what the gauge of a firearm's bore means is—get ready for this—the number of spheres you can make out of a pound of lead such that each will have a diameter equal to that of the bore. No, seriously, that's what it means. If you have 12 lead spheres of the diameter of a 12-gauge shotgun's bore, they add up to a pound. A 20-gauge bore's diameter would make 20 balls out of the same pound of lead. And so on. This is why a 20-gauge shotgun is smaller than a 12-gauge.

Shotguns—and some big-game rifles—used to be available in a wide range of different bores or gauges. Back in the days of the intrepid explorers, a few British gunmakers made 2-bore rifles, which were basically small shoulder-fired artillery pieces, and which tended to be used on things like elephants and rhinos. Nowadays, one tends to find shotguns only in 12- or 20-gauge; very occasionally 16- or 10-gauge, though I'm not sure anyone makes those new any more. .410 is also still around, filling a niche as a light-duty shotshell for dealing with things like snakes.

Making things even more complicated in the shotgun ammunition nomenclature game is the fact that most shotgun shells are loaded with, well, shot, and shot has its own arcane sizing system. Actually it has about a dozen different, mutually incompatible arcane sizing systems. In the US this is pretty much arbitrary—by definition, a US No. 2 shot is 0.150" in diameter, while the same size shot in Britain is designated "B" and defined as the size of which you get 87 out of a pound of lead. (There's that pound of lead again.) Meanwhile, a European No. 2 is .148", which is size 6 in Sweden. And so on. And that's just bird shot! Buckshot is vaguely similar, but the numbers are all different and the British version is actually based on the old naval standards for sizing grapeshot. The shot gets larger as the number gets smaller, until they get to 0, and then the bigger ones get more zeroes. It's all fairly baffling.

(There is such a thing as a shotgun shell that has a single full-width projectile in it, probably-not-surprisingly called a shotgun slug. Since shotguns aren't rifled, these usually have rifling on them, which is not as effective as having it built into the gun, but better than just launching it out of a smoothbore tube. There are also—bizarrely enough—rifled shotguns, out of which one can no longer fire shot, but which will take discarding-sabot shells containing bullets smaller than a 12-gauge bore. There is apparently a velocity gain to be had here, I don't really understand the advantage over just using a rifle. As far as I know, no one makes fin-stabilized discarding-sabot 12-gauge sub-diameter slugs, though that would be hilarious. And expensive!)

Anyway, yeah. .12-gauge indeed. (An actual .12 gauge bore is theoretically possible, but that would really be a slightly oversized 8-pounder field gun. I'm not going to bother to do spherical volume calculations based on the density of lead and figure out how large the bore would be.)

Shotgun shells are kind of interesting, just because of the way they've evolved. In some ways they're actually more like a self-contained muzzleloader charge than most modern cartridges, because they still have an inert wad between the powder charge and the payload (and often one in front of the payload as well). Also, because they (usually) don't have a single full-diameter projectile, the hull needs to be the full length of the cartridge—or really longer than that, so there's extra material to close it off at the front and keep the shot from just rolling out.

They used to be all brass, like most other cartridges, but that gets pretty expensive owing to the amount of metal involved. Then, for a long time, they were mostly paper with a brass head and usually a brass "cuff" extending up from the head, to reinforce the section that contains the actual powder charge. I'm just old enough to remember there were still some old paper shells kicking around when I was a kid; nowadays they're virtually always plastic with a brass head (and still the brass reinforcement for the powder section). They were also once color-coded by gauge, which is why many 12-gauge shells on the market nowadays tend to be red and 20-gauge ones yellow, though this is no longer de rigueur and as far as I know was never technically required.

Also, note that they're no longer universally manufactured with lead shot, because it occurred to someone eventually that hundreds of people spraying small particles of lead around the countryside (particularly wetlands) every fall for decades on end was, in retrospect, probably not the best idea. Nowadays it's usually steel or—weirdly—bismuth.

None of this information is really critical to understand what a shotgun is or does, but as I've had folks express an interest in the nuts and bolts of ammunition types and whatnot before, I figured it would be a good time to jot down a few notes, since we haven't really looked at one before.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells [View All] Gryphonadmin Feb-20-17 TOP
  RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells Astynax Feb-21-17 1
     RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells Gryphonadmin Feb-21-17 2
         RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells drakensis Feb-21-17 3
     RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells rwpikul Feb-22-17 9
         RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells Gryphonadmin Feb-22-17 11
         RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells MoonEyes Feb-22-17 12
     RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells StClair Feb-22-17 13
  RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells MoonEyes Feb-21-17 4
     RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells Gryphonadmin Feb-21-17 6
         RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells MoonEyes Feb-21-17 8
  RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells jonathanlennox Feb-21-17 5
     RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells The Traitor Feb-21-17 7
  RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells rwpikul Feb-22-17 10
  RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells thorr_kan Feb-22-17 14
     RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells Gryphonadmin Feb-22-17 16
  RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells Pasha Feb-22-17 15
  RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells Peter Eng Feb-23-17 17
     RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells Gryphonadmin Feb-23-17 18
         RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells Peter Eng Feb-23-17 19

Conferences | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic
Astynax
Charter Member
711 posts
Feb-21-17, 00:39 AM (EST)
Click to EMail Astynax Click to send private message to Astynax Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
1. "RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells"
In response to message #0
 
   I very much want to know what is -in- British water that all of their measurement systems seem to be the result of Rube Goldberg fever dreams.


-={(Astynax)}=-
"I just explained the shotgun gauge determination to my wife, who proceeded to look at me as if I had just sprouted a second head, and said head had offended her -greatly-."


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
18561 posts
Feb-21-17, 00:42 AM (EST)
Click to EMail Gryphon Click to send private message to Gryphon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
2. "RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells"
In response to message #1
 
   >I very much want to know what is -in- British water that all of their
>measurement systems seem to be the result of Rube Goldberg fever
>dreams.

Based on its prevalence in these systems, I'm guessing lead.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
drakensis
Member since Dec-20-06
291 posts
Feb-21-17, 02:51 AM (EST)
Click to EMail drakensis Click to send private message to drakensis Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list Click to send message via AOL IM  
3. "RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells"
In response to message #2
 
   Touche.

D.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rwpikul
Member since Jun-22-03
159 posts
Feb-22-17, 00:00 AM (EST)
Click to EMail rwpikul Click to send private message to rwpikul Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
9. "RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells"
In response to message #1
 
   >I very much want to know what is -in- British water that all of their
>measurement systems seem to be the result of Rube Goldberg fever
>dreams.

Generally it was because those systems were useful when they were developed.

Consider the gauge system Gryphon just described: When you are casting round balls of shot for smoothbore muskets, talking about the number of balls you get per pound of shot makes sense.

--
Chakat Firepaw - Inventor & Scientist (Mad)


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
18561 posts
Feb-22-17, 00:22 AM (EST)
Click to EMail Gryphon Click to send private message to Gryphon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
11. "RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells"
In response to message #9
 
   >Consider the gauge system Gryphon just described: When you are
>casting round balls of shot for smoothbore muskets, talking about the
>number of balls you get per pound of shot makes sense.

Hmm... I was about to object that round shot in the days of musketry often wasn't cast, as such, but then it occurred to me that, the way it was made, that does make some sense. If you're dropping molten lead into water to make balls, and you know that one-twelfth of a pound makes a 12-bore ball, that's useful information. (Water forming turns out not to be a very good way of making round shot, as water is too efficient as a coolant and the balls often cool before they can become completely round, but it was still quicker and less expensive than casting them individually, and it would do until industrial-scale swaging came along...)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
MoonEyes
Member since Jun-29-03
563 posts
Feb-22-17, 10:01 AM (EST)
Click to EMail MoonEyes Click to send private message to MoonEyes Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
12. "RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells"
In response to message #9
 
   >Consider the gauge system Gryphon just described: When you are
>casting round balls of shot for smoothbore muskets, talking about the
>number of balls you get per pound of shot makes sense.

Well, the thing is that, muskets didn't really HAVE that sort of size. One of the reasons are that balls were undersized for the barrel, to reduce fouling as much as possible. Take the Brown Bess, which is the most well known musket, I would think. The barrel is .75 caliber, but the issued ball is .69, which doesn't really conform to any even gauge-number. Now, .75 is JUST a hair under 11-gauge, but since you don't actually SHOOT balls that size...

The same goes with the French Charlesville musket. The barrel is at 17.5mm, but that's smack dab in between 14 and 15 gauge. The balls are most likely smaller, for the same reason, but I haven't been able to find any reference to HOW much smaller...but, again, you run into the 'problem' of the ball not being the same size as the bore, so...

So...I don't know that I can see it.
...!
Gott's Leetle Feesh in Trousers!


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
StClair
Charter Member
652 posts
Feb-22-17, 11:25 AM (EST)
Click to EMail StClair Click to send private message to StClair Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
13. "RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells"
In response to message #1
 
   >I very much want to know what is -in- British water that all of their
>measurement systems seem to be the result of Rube Goldberg fever
>dreams.

The general answer is actually relatively simple:
All of these systems were originally developed with absolutely no attempt to make them work together, according to the specific needs and convenient assumptions/ranges of the various crafts. And the earlier that a particular system started to congeal, the greater the chance that it includes a certain degree of "slop", due to the process of developing more and more precise instruments of measure; the really early stuff was almost certainly done by no tools beyond practiced hand and eye, and sometimes other body parts (with the natural variation between one human and another).

It wasn't until literally hundreds of years after many of these ad-hoc systems had become tradition within the guilds etc that the development of industry and the growing interconnectedness of things (thank you, Mr. Burke) meant that the various trades were rubbing up against each other more and more, and what had worked in isolation, with the occasional memorized set of conversions, was no longer going to cut it; there was just too much cruft in the whole "system of systems", even with literacy and numeracy also on the rise to allow referring to written-down tables, to be practical. This is where (and when) you get the efforts to toss out some or all of what's gone before(*) and reinvent it from the top down, making it all orderly and more easily interoperable/convertible this time; of course, the people making these efforts have their own biases and assumptions about what's a reasonable starting point, what size/granularity of units are going to be convenient for everyday use, etc etc.

* The degree to which some "backward compatibility" is maintained is a tricky decision; putting the equivalent of an existing common unit into your new system encourages its adoption on one hand, but also preserves vestiges of that old system (and allows people to just keep using it, after a fashion) when sometimes a clean break might be better. What often ends up happening, complicating things still further, is that people will continue using the old units they're familiar and comfortable with, but will also adopt new ones for things they didn't previously deal with often enough to need to memorize the old rules of thumb... creating a sort of bizarre hybrid which, by its very nature, cannot be fully internally consistent.

For example, I'm quite comfortable using metric when it comes to science (fiction); but when it comes to "everyday" measures, I still tend to think in terms of Fahrenheit, pounds and ounces, and miles per hour. This is not usually a problem, because the two systems occupy very different parts of my life, and the only time I actually have to convert between them is when I need to do a "gut check" of what some astronomical figure means in "real units", or inform someone in a civilized country how hot or cold it is where I live.

In conclusion, I'll note that a similar process can be observed in the development of rules for tabletop gaming: the accumulation of an astonishing number of ad-hoc systems for handling various cases of (simulated) reality, with detailed knowledge of their arcane idiosyncrasies often becoming a source of (closely guarded) power, much like trade secrets in the real world, for those who were initiated into the deeper mysteries; and the same attempts to simplify, unify and rationalize the whole thing, replacing all of that with "generic, universal" mechanics which could, at least in theory, adjudicate any possible action a character could take ... groping for a consistent "theory of everything", as it were.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
MoonEyes
Member since Jun-29-03
563 posts
Feb-21-17, 07:29 AM (EST)
Click to EMail MoonEyes Click to send private message to MoonEyes Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
4. "RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-17 AT 07:38 AM (EST)
 
Hooray, one of the most fiddly and esoteric measurements ever! But, it does actually have SOME form of basis in logic, even if you have to REALLY squint and tilt your head. For those interested, something of an explanation follows. For those NOT interested, do ignore.


Bore, or gauge, comes from rifles, really, and not shotguns, primarily.
Back in the day of the early British Empire, gentlemen would go hunting in the back of the bundu. They would DO so with single, or more commonly, double barrel rifles firing black powder. And the thing about such rifles is, there is really little way to increase the power. You have a notable limit on the velocity of the round. So, the only real way to increase the power of the round is to increase the WEIGHT. And so, you increase the barrel to go along with it. By putting barrel reaching up towards inches in diameter, you can put a BULLET that wide in the gun.
Why would you want to, though? Well, 8-6-4 bore(4 being really the last 'reasonable' size) is there to be a stopping rifle. You don't, per se, go hunting with that...but when your standard hunting rifle isn't up to the task, and you have a SERIOUSLY pissed off rhino, buffalo, bull elephant bearing down on you at a VERY high clip with blood, potentially literally, in it's eye? You really, *really* want something that will do the job right fucking NOW!!!

Of course, smokeless powders came along, and the limit of how fast you could drive a bullet became a thing of the past, and so the high-bore(low-bore?) guns disappeared. But the system of measurement remained in shotguns, which had also been made in bore-size, because a shotgun functions differently, and so there was no reason to change that idea.


Today, 12-gauge is indeed the standard, 20-gauge is almost entirely a bird-hunting size, and some companies still make 10- and 16-gauges, Browning among them.

The .410 is quite popular among some for defensive purposes. This is because the base of the .410 is the same size as the .45 Colt(note, NOT the .45 ACP), and so, if you extend the cylinder, you can load both rounds into a revolver. The revolver is still classified as a handgun, though, and not a shotgun, and so, you can get around the 'minimum length of barrel/gun' issue. Their actual effectiveness is very debatable, though.


And finally, the formula for bore-size. The density of lead is 6.55 ounces per cubic inch. That in turn gets us 0.41 pounds per cubic inch. If we invert that, we get cubic inches per pound, instead, so 1/0.41, which gets us 2.4.
So, 2.4 cubic inches per pound, convenient for a 12-gauge, that is 0.2 cubic inches for each sphere. Now, using the basic formula for the volume of a sphere, 4/3*pi*r^3, we get a radius of 0.363 inches, which gives a bore measure of 0.73(rounded).

Other sizes bore makes it a bit more difficult, but not all that much.
.410 counts out to about 67.6 gauge, which of course is the reason it is read as .410. And a .12 gauge would be...3.4 inches, approximately. THERE is a gun for you! Somewhere between A½ and AA punt gun, and WELL above the 4-bore stopping guns above, and, of course, NOT something you could even carry, much less shoot.


Oh, I forgot...yeah. There is a mad French company that DO make FSDS 12-gauge rounds. The idea/advantage is, of course, as ALL sabot-rounds, that you get a round that is powered by a full load of powder, while weighing half as much as it 'should', producing one hellacious amount of velocity(for those that aren't aware of why sabots are a thing).
And the reason for a rifled shotgun is really(lack of) range, meant for areas where the greater range of a rifle is potentially dangerous, and so you have "shotgun-only" hunting zones. Or so I'm given to understand. Around here, at least, there is no such thing.


...!
Gott's Leetle Feesh in Trousers!


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
18561 posts
Feb-21-17, 01:42 PM (EST)
Click to EMail Gryphon Click to send private message to Gryphon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
6. "RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells"
In response to message #4
 
   >The .410 is quite popular among some for defensive purposes. This is
>because the base of the .410 is the same size as the .45 Colt(note,
>NOT the .45 ACP), and so, if you extend the cylinder, you can load
>both rounds into a revolver.

Heheh, funny you should ention that...

>Other sizes bore makes it a bit more difficult, but not all that much.
>.410 counts out to about 67.6 gauge, which of course is the reason it
>is read as .410. And a .12 gauge would be...3.4 inches, approximately.
>THERE is a gun for you! Somewhere between A½ and AA punt gun, and
>WELL above the 4-bore stopping guns above, and, of course, NOT
>something you could even carry, much less shoot.

~86 millimeters, that's close to a very familiar reference size...

>Oh, I forgot...yeah. There is a mad French company that DO make FSDS
>12-gauge rounds.

Heh. That pleases me, albeit mostly because it's completely silly.

>And the reason for a rifled shotgun is really(lack of) range, meant
>for areas where the greater range of a rifle is potentially dangerous,
>and so you have "shotgun-only" hunting zones.

I... guess? Although by using a sabot round you're getting back into normal-rifle territory again. It seems to me more like someone's playing silly buggers with some rule or another, but I can't cite anything to prove that.

Speaking of silly buggers with rules, I'm unclear on why a rifled 12-gauge isn't an NFA Destructive Device, given that it is no longer a shotgun by the strict definition (they are specifically defined as having a smooth bore) and has a bore well over half an inch in diameter. Must be that "sporting purpose" exemption, and the evident fact that one one at the ATF cares to make an issue of it.)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
MoonEyes
Member since Jun-29-03
563 posts
Feb-21-17, 02:18 PM (EST)
Click to EMail MoonEyes Click to send private message to MoonEyes Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
8. "RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells"
In response to message #6
 
   >Heheh, funny you should ention that...

So I saw, yeah. :)

>Heh. That pleases me, albeit mostly because it's completely silly.

Saboted rounds aren't uncommon among the rifled-slug-barrel set as I understand, but they're the only ones I know of that fin-stabilize.


>I... guess? Although by using a sabot round you're getting back into
>normal-rifle territory again. It seems to me more like someone's
>playing silly buggers with some rule or another, but I can't cite
>anything to prove that.

Well, not really. I mean, even with sabots, you're not talking more than half a mile. With a .308, you could get two miles easily, and still be able to do significant damage. Sure, you won't see what you hit...but that's not to say you won't hit it. Not so with a shotgun, particularly not a standard slug. Though, the 'shotgun only area' idea? Is just silly to me, any way. If you're that close to, presumably, human habitation? You don't HUNT there!


>Speaking of silly buggers with rules, I'm unclear on why a rifled
>12-gauge isn't an NFA Destructive Device, given that it is no longer a
>shotgun by the strict definition (they are specifically defined as
>having a smooth bore) and has a bore well over half an inch in
>diameter. Must be that "sporting purpose" exemption, and the evident
>fact that one one at the ATF cares to make an issue of it.)

Well, in the US, because the (B)ATF(E) have decided that shotguns are shotguns, if they're made as shotguns, as it were. Originally, they were replacement barrels, but now you can get them with those 'replacements' already installed. But, since they are originally meant to fire shot....


...!
Gott's Leetle Feesh in Trousers!


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jonathanlennox
Charter Member
223 posts
Feb-21-17, 01:08 PM (EST)
Click to EMail jonathanlennox Click to send private message to jonathanlennox Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
5. "RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells"
In response to message #0
 
   >Anyway, yeah. .12-gauge indeed. (An actual .12 gauge bore is
>theoretically possible, but that would really be a slightly
>oversized 8-pounder field gun. I'm not going to bother to do
>spherical volume calculations based on the density of lead and figure
>out how large the bore would be.)

A little bit of fiddling with Wolfram Alpha says 8.6 cm, or about 3.4 inches.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
The Traitor
Member since Feb-24-09
917 posts
Feb-21-17, 02:11 PM (EST)
Click to EMail The%20Traitor Click to send private message to The%20Traitor Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
7. "RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells"
In response to message #5
 
   One is intimately reminded of Tom Sharpe's South Africa-set farce "Riotous Assembly", in which the inciting incident is a man getting reduced to his component molecules by a quadruple-barrelled elephant gun by a little old lady. It's well worth a read, if you can find it. =]

---
"She's old, she's lame, she's barren too, // "She's not worth feed or hay, // "But I'll give her this," - he blew smoke at me - // "She was something in her day." -- Garnet Rogers, Small Victory

FiMFiction.net: we might accept blatant porn involving the cast of My Little Pony but as God is my witness we have standards.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rwpikul
Member since Jun-22-03
159 posts
Feb-22-17, 00:09 AM (EST)
Click to EMail rwpikul Click to send private message to rwpikul Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
10. "RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells"
In response to message #0
 
   >Anyway, yeah. .12-gauge indeed. (An actual .12 gauge bore is
>theoretically possible, but that would really be a slightly
>oversized 8-pounder field gun.

A light 6-lbr, (in the old system) actually, because they were measured based on iron shot. The modern system would have it as a 23-lbr or so, being based on AP shot rather than a cannonball.

--
Chakat Firepaw - Inventor & Scientist (Mad)


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
thorr_kan
Member since May-11-11
27 posts
Feb-22-17, 12:40 PM (EST)
Click to EMail thorr_kan Click to send private message to thorr_kan Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
14. "RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells"
In response to message #0
 
   Punt guns. Used for large scale waterfowl hunting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punt_gun

There's your large gauge shotguns.

The Royal Armory in Leeds has a collection of these. I'd heard of them, but seeing them is something different. That's a big shot gun. Documentation claimed some were deployed as anti-U-boat vessels during WWI and WWII, but says none saw action.

I can see a passel of these clearing a U-boat's deck gun in a hurry.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
18561 posts
Feb-22-17, 10:17 PM (EST)
Click to EMail Gryphon Click to send private message to Gryphon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
16. "RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells"
In response to message #14
 
   >Documentation claimed some were deployed as anti-U-boat vessels during
>WWI and WWII, but says none saw action.

Well... I don't see that being terribly effective, but at least it would have felt a bit less like a total waste of time than the guys who got sent out in rowboats with a sack and a hammer in WWI.

(This was really a thing, I think I've mentioned it before. The idea was if they spotted a Jerry periscope, they would row over to it, throw the bag over it, and then belabor it with the hammer in hopes of damaging the delicate optics. Never actually done, to the best of my knowledge. I found the original reference in Dan Van der Vat's Stealth at Sea.)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Pasha
Charter Member
933 posts
Feb-22-17, 05:21 PM (EST)
Click to EMail Pasha Click to send private message to Pasha Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list Click to send message via ICQ  
15. "RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells"
In response to message #0
 
   If you've ever wanted to watch people shoot weird shit out of shotguns, btw, the youtube channel taofledermaus is the channel for you.

--
-Pasha
"Don't change the subject"
"Too slow, already did."


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Peter Eng
Charter Member
1324 posts
Feb-23-17, 12:58 PM (EST)
Click to EMail Peter%20Eng Click to send private message to Peter%20Eng Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
17. "RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells"
In response to message #0
 
   So, are "bore" and "gauge" functionally equivalent?

There was a Facebook game where one of my go-to tools for a while was the "Bolt-action 4-bore." I never understood what made them choose that name, but now I have something like an idea.

Peter Eng
--
How many bears could Bear Grylls grill, if Bear Grylls could grill bears?


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
18561 posts
Feb-23-17, 05:34 PM (EST)
Click to EMail Gryphon Click to send private message to Gryphon Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
18. "RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells"
In response to message #17
 
   LAST EDITED ON Feb-23-17 AT 05:57 PM (EST)
 
>So, are "bore" and "gauge" functionally equivalent?

Basically, yeah. I think "bore" was usually applied to large-caliber rifles and "gauge" to smoothbores (shotguns, but also non-rifled guns intended to fire a single projectile), but the numbers mean the same things in terms of diameter (i.e., a 4-bore rifle and a 4-gauge shotgun would be the same size).

>There was a Facebook game where one of my go-to tools for a while was
>the "Bolt-action 4-bore." I never understood what made them choose
>that name, but now I have something like an idea.

I very much doubt there was ever such a thing as a bolt-action 4-bore rifle (although some of the anti-tank-rifle cartridges of World War II were 20mm, or roughly 10-bore), but break-open ones were certainly a thing.

--G.
killed a pig and ate a raw pork chop / 'cause I'm Bear Grylls
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Peter Eng
Charter Member
1324 posts
Feb-23-17, 07:13 PM (EST)
Click to EMail Peter%20Eng Click to send private message to Peter%20Eng Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
19. "RE: Gun of the Week Prep: Shotshells"
In response to message #18
 
   >
>>There was a Facebook game where one of my go-to tools for a while was
>>the "Bolt-action 4-bore." I never understood what made them choose
>>that name, but now I have something like an idea.
>
>I very much doubt there was ever such a thing as a bolt-action
>4-bore rifle...
>

Not surprising. When a game offers the opportunity to tote around a synthetic Cosmic Cube or a vibranium kama, firearms realism is not anywhere on the list of concerns.

Peter Eng
--
Insert humorous comment here.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Conferences | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

[ YUM ] [ BIG ] [ ??!? ] [ RANT ] [ GNDN ] [ STORE ] [ FORUM ] [ VAULT ]

version 3.3 © 2001
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited
Benjamin D. Hutchins
E P U (Colour)