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Subject: "Speaking of Star Trek"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
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Gryphonadmin
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Mar-05-14, 09:55 PM (EST)
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"Speaking of Star Trek"
 
   So since I've started playing STO again and the sinusoidal track that is my interest in Star Trek generally seems to be on the upward curve at the moment, there are a couple of things I'm curious about that I figured I should check with the rest of the class about.

1) Star Trek Into Darkness. I skipped it. Mistake or good call? I know more or less what happens, and even from a fairly detailed synopsis I cannot actually tell where on the excellence/serious injury continuum it falls. The first one somehow managed the interesting, quantum-mechanics-like feat of being at both ends simultaneously, which was interesting but rather stressful. It's out on video now and that gap on the shelf is mocking me. "Come on, you piker," it's saying. "You paid someone a quantity of actual United States dollars for the two-disc DVD version of Star Trek V so that there wouldn't be a hole here, and now you're holding out on something with Benedict Cumberbatch and Peter Weller in it? They've got to be worth watching a movie that also has Chris Pine in it, haven't they?"

2) The Space WelshRihannsu novels. I attempted the first one... gosh... a large number of years ago and found it entirely too precious, but on the other hand, it's not as if the canonical interpretation of the Romulans post-TOS is in any way satisfactory either, so I dunno, it might be worth another look. I've encountered support for them before on these boards, but it seems to me it was rather vaguely stated, and if I'm going to drop more than five dollars per for ebooks (and as an aside, what the fuck is that about?), I want more data.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Speaking of Star Trek Malkarris Mar-05-14 1
  RE: Speaking of Star Trek drakensis Mar-06-14 2
  RE: Speaking of Star Trek laudre Mar-06-14 3
  RE: Speaking of Star Trek CdrMike Mar-06-14 4
  RE: Speaking of Star Trek Mister Fnord Mar-06-14 5
     RE: Speaking of Star Trek Gryphonadmin Mar-06-14 6
         RE: Speaking of Star Trek Mister Fnord Mar-06-14 7
  RE: Speaking of Star Trek Mercutio Mar-06-14 8
  RE: Speaking of Star Trek mdg1 Mar-06-14 9
     RE: Speaking of Star Trek Gryphonadmin Mar-06-14 10
         RE: Speaking of Star Trek pjmoyermoderator Mar-06-14 11
             RE: Speaking of Star Trek eriktown Mar-07-14 12
         RE: Speaking of Star Trek mdg1 Mar-07-14 13
  RE: Speaking of Star Trek Sofaspud Mar-07-14 14
     RE: Speaking of Star Trek Gryphonadmin Mar-07-14 15
         RE: Speaking of Star Trek Senji Mar-07-14 16
             RE: Speaking of Star Trek Gryphonadmin Mar-07-14 17
         RE: Speaking of Star Trek twipper Mar-08-14 18

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Malkarris
Member since Jan-5-11
29 posts
Mar-05-14, 11:44 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: Speaking of Star Trek"
In response to message #0
 
   Well, all this is my own opinion, so take with a gram or ton of salt, as you wish.

1. Into Darkness is not the Wrath of Kahn, and I'll leave any spoilers at that. I would say if you liked the first reboot, I don't think you will hate this one. Its a popcorn movie, don't expect much more than that. Personally I liked it, but I seem to like a lot of things other people say is terrible. If nothing else, it not only has Benedict Cumberbatch and Peter Weller in it, but Scotty's little green knobby friend. I mean you can't beat that.

2. Eh, never read all of them. The first one I liked, the others seemed to kinda bog down from there. They were interesting, but not what I was in the mood for at the time. You could try and find them at a used book store, or try a library, I know some of the ones here let you check out ebooks. Or I am sure there are other ways.

I won't fight you Atton.
I don't care, I just want you to die.
(Disciple and Atton KOTOR2)


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drakensis
Member since Dec-20-06
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Mar-06-14, 02:36 AM (EST)
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2. "RE: Speaking of Star Trek"
In response to message #0
 
   Can't help with Into Darkness, but for the Rihannsu books My Enemy, My Ally is probably the strongest as a story, more or less Kirk and his Romulan counter-part working together to put a stop of a war crime. The Romulan Way has a framing story of McCoy being put on trial by the Romulan Senate but it's really a history of the Romulans which is considerably more interesting than the story. The other two are so unmemorable I can't even recall their names.

D.


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laudre
Member since Nov-14-06
228 posts
Mar-06-14, 06:42 AM (EST)
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3. "RE: Speaking of Star Trek"
In response to message #0
 
   1) I paid to see it in the theater, and I don't regret it, but I won't claim it's a great film or a great Trek film. It's fun if you don't think about it too hard, and there's a fair number of continuity Easter eggs (which I'm sure have been examined exhaustively somewhere on the Internet). It's not without its flaws, of course, but it's not a bad way to spend a couple of hours.

2) I've only read The Romulan Way, and I quite liked it (maybe I'll reread it after I finish my long-overdue reread of The Final Reflection). I've considered getting ebook versions of the entire series, but, like you, I find the pricing somewhat absurd (and doubly so for the ebook version of the omnibus, which is about $32, or more than the combined price of the four novels it contains, and, because of timing, doesn't include the fifth novel in the series). I do certainly think much better of it than most of the Romulan development that's happened in canon.

"Mathematics brought rigor to economics. Unfortunately, it also brought mortis."
- Kenneth Boulding


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CdrMike
Member since Feb-20-05
352 posts
Mar-06-14, 06:56 AM (EST)
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4. "RE: Speaking of Star Trek"
In response to message #0
 
   1) Into Darkness is definitely worth a watch if you liked the first film. I joked the other day about it being a "remake," but it does recycle elements. That said, it does so in ways that are fresh and different and wholly within the confines of the timeframe as we know it. It's by no means bad, it's not ST:V, Nemesis, or even ST:TMP bad, it's closer to ST:III in terms of quality. And yeah, Cumberbatch and Weller make it worth putting up with Pine, though they do try to make his character less of an annoying little shit.

2) Can't help you, never really read into the novels. Or rather, most of the ST novelverse books I've read are post-TNG era ones, like the New Frontier series.

--------------------------
CdrMike, Renegade Time Lord

"I have questions, but number one is this: What in the name of sanity have you got on your head?"
"It's a fez. I wear a fez now. Fezzes are cool."
- River Song and Eleventh Doctor, "The Big Bang," Doctor Who


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Mister Fnord
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250 posts
Mar-06-14, 02:04 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: Speaking of Star Trek"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON Mar-06-14 AT 02:04 PM (EST)
 
As far as Into Darkness goes, it's a lot like its predecessor in terms of how it plays out. Everything runs at a pretty breakneck pace, mostly because they're trying to keep people from noticing that the plot doesn't hold up well to scrutiny and the characterization is still a little thin. On the other hand, the first ten minutes of the movie makes for a cracking "Enterprise finds trouble and saves the day" adventure, the action setpieces are pretty well done, Cumberbatch and Weller give solid performances and the cinematographer cut down on the freaking lens flare.

I paid money to see it in theaters and I don't regret it, but it's definitely YMMV based on how much you liked the first movie.

--
Mr. Fnord did really like the way they shot the Enterprise this time.


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Gryphonadmin
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Mar-06-14, 02:31 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Speaking of Star Trek"
In response to message #5
 
   >mostly because they're trying to keep people from noticing that
>the plot doesn't hold up well to scrutiny

In fairness, this is a feature that is shared with many of the best-loved Star Trek stories. I mean, Star Trek II's premise is ludicrous if you think about it for a second. Reliant is conducting a survey mission of what is explicitly established as utterly exhaustive detail, and they don't know which planet they're looking at? Kirk strands the most dangerous war criminal Earth has ever known on an uninhabited planet and nobody at Starfleet writes down which one? It's incredibly stupid, and this is the Star Trek movie virtually everybody appears to agree is The Best One.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Mister Fnord
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Mar-06-14, 05:41 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: Speaking of Star Trek"
In response to message #6
 
   >>mostly because they're trying to keep people from noticing that
>>the plot doesn't hold up well to scrutiny
>
>In fairness, this is a feature that is shared with many of the
>best-loved Star Trek stories.

Well... yeah, fair point. I may just be old, bitter and hypercritical. :)

--
Mr. Fnord


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Mercutio
Member since May-26-13
403 posts
Mar-06-14, 08:57 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: Speaking of Star Trek"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON Mar-06-14 AT 08:58 PM (EST)
 
>So since I've started playing STO again and the sinusoidal track that
>is my interest in Star Trek generally seems to be on the upward
>curve at the moment, there are a couple of things I'm curious about
>that I figured I should check with the rest of the class about.

See, you value our opinion. I think history has proven, conclusively, that this is the sort of mistake that leads to you ending your life in exile on St. Helena.

Too late to back out now, though! :)

>1) Star Trek Into Darkness. I skipped it. Mistake or good
>call?

Excellent call. Do not pay money to see Into Darkness. If you feel you need to see it, which is a perfectly understandable feeling for someone with affection for Star Trek, I encourage you to steal it or at the very least borrow it from a friend so as to not funnel one thin dime to J.J Abrams.

Into Darkness is competently to superbly acted for the most part (even Pine improves, and Quinto, of course, was born to be Nimoy's successor in the role of Spock) but it is a completely absurd movie, and I mean that in the worst possible way. The original set of movies, as you point out in the thread, were not without flaw in the plotting department (Although frankly, I've always thought that Voyage Home was the strongest one, as opposed to Wrath) but Into Darkness takes things to a whole other level, to the point where you rather feel like it wasn't even trying.

This, by the way, is a flaw endemic to much of the Abrams/Orci/Kurtzman canon; they have a knack for creating engaging characters and for making solid casting choices and writing solid emotional beats, but they also often decide "the story will have Huge Plot Points A, B, and C in it, and we don't much give a fuck about how they're connected or indeed if it makes any sense. Also, we might get bored between B and C and head off to Point Q instead."

(Still bitter about the trainwreck that was the last two seasons of Fringe. And the last three or four of Lost.)

Much like the first Trek in the Abramsverse, Into Darkness dedicates quite a lot of time to destroying Spock's character, because Spock must always be wrong for being the reasonable, logical, level-headed one, and Kirk must always be right even when his decisions are clearly insane. TOS at least managed some nuance in this regard; Kirk would often ignore or override Spock and be proven correct to have done so, but the narrative didn't feel so damn mean about it, and Shatner's Kirk didn't come off as a spoiled, arrogant frat boy the way Pine's so often does.

Gratuitous Nurse Chapel T&A. Not cool, movie. I like looking at an attractive lady en deshabille as much as the next guy, but come on.

And the literal "KHAAAAAAAN!" shout-out, especially since they fucking undid it without even having the grace to wait a full movie to do so, was both physically painful and mentally enraging to watch. It's like Abrams had some vague idea that people found the original scene to be powerful and moving, but couldn't quite understand why, and so chose to do the cinematic equivalent of a child placing a sheet of paper over a great piece of art and making a shaky-handed traced copy in an effort to capture some of it for himself.

It did not work.

The movie is not without redeeming qualities as far as "being a movie" goes. Benedict Cumberbatch has never acted badly or failed to make you completely engage with him in his entire life; he's more or less holding Sherlock together purely on the strength of his personality at this point. I'm willing to say that, even controlling for their different origins, personalities, and the eras they were written in, Cumberbatch may be better at being Khan than Montalban was. He doesn't have a single scene as powerful as Khan slipping that worm into Chekov's ear, but his overall performance I think is at a higher level.

It's also pretty as all get out.

But as a Star Trek movie, I am actually kind of offended this was made, in a way that I'm not even upset about the Star Wars prequels.

>I know more or less what happens, and even from a fairly
>detailed synopsis I cannot actually tell where on the
>excellence/serious injury continuum it falls. The first one somehow
>managed the interesting, quantum-mechanics-like feat of being at both
>ends simultaneously, which was interesting but rather stressful.

This more or less dovetails with my own feelings on Star Trek. Into Darkness took everything about the first one that I found to be excellent and chose to either downplay or remove it, while amping up the bad parts.

>It's
>out on video now and that gap on the shelf is mocking me. "Come on,
>you piker," it's saying. "You paid someone a quantity of actual
>United States dollars for the two-disc DVD version of Star Trek
>V
so that there wouldn't be a hole here, and now you're holding
>out on something with Benedict Cumberbatch and Peter Weller in it?
>They've got to be worth watching a movie that also has Chris Pine in
>it, haven't they?"

This is a good and worthy reason to want a copy of the physical discs in your collection. I just would encourage you to buy them secondhand, anything that doesn't give money to the studio.

>2) The Space WelshRihannsu novels. I attempted the first
>one... gosh... a large number of years ago and found it
>entirely too precious, but on the other hand, it's not as if
>the canonical interpretation of the Romulans post-TOS is in any way
>satisfactory either, so I dunno, it might be worth another look. I've
>encountered support for them before on these boards, but it seems to
>me it was rather vaguely stated, and if I'm going to drop more than
>five dollars per for ebooks (and as an aside, what the fuck is
>that about?), I want more data.

The Rihannsu novels aren't something I have very strong opinions, but they're pretty 'meh.' There's some decent writing in there, but also a lot of weird Romulan fetishization and... well, precious was a very good word for them. Lots of "Look at my Romulan OC! Isn't she awesome?".

Having said that, I feel that I should mention that I like the canonical interpretation of Romulans post-TOS; my major complaint with them is that they weren't featured enough and we didn't get to really engage with them the way we did with the Klingons or the Cardassians, the two best fleshed-out nonhuman species and polities.

I find the idea that there are a bunch of Vulcans who went "No, you know what? Fuck you, Surak. We don't need to practice your weird brand of asceticism in order to avoid murdering each other. We acknowledge that as a species, we are very emotional and that makes us prone to aggression and violence; we will instead construct a complex authoritarian culture with cunningly concealed release valves to channel off that aggression and violence in ways that, if not constructive, will at least allow us to continue living our lives without deadening ourselves to the emotions that make said lives worth living" to be utterly fascinating, and wish they'd ran further with it. No Star Trek series ever seems to really come to grips with the fact that the mere existence of the Romulan Empire is dispositive proof you can have a productive, stable Vulcan culture without needing to follow the Way of Surak.

So take my opinions on Romulans with that in mind.

Finally: on the filthy pirating site of your choice, there are many very readable collections of the entire Star Trek novel collections floating around. If you aren't sure about the Rihannsu novels, why not check them out that way and then toss a few shekels to the publishers if you feel the experience was worthwhile? I understand (and respect!) if you consider that to be morally unpalatable; for myself, I view it as little different than going through the hassle of asking my local library to get me dead tree copies via inter-library loan.

-Merc
Keep Rat


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mdg1
Member since Aug-25-04
962 posts
Mar-06-14, 09:16 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Speaking of Star Trek"
In response to message #0
 
   For the record, the only TOS-era novels I can recommend without reservation are Mike Ford's... and I know for a fact you've read at least one of the pair. :)

Mario


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Gryphonadmin
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13423 posts
Mar-06-14, 09:25 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: Speaking of Star Trek"
In response to message #9
 
   >For the record, the only TOS-era novels I can recommend without
>reservation are Mike Ford's... and I know for a fact you've read at
>least one of the pair. :)

I have to be in exactly the right mood for How Much for Just the Planet? If I am, it's hilarious. If I'm not, it's a bit like the run on Doctor Who where Douglas Adams was the script editor and kept putting in wacky Douglas Adams-y stuff that didn't work in context.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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pjmoyermoderator
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1207 posts
Mar-06-14, 09:35 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: Speaking of Star Trek"
In response to message #10
 
   >I have to be in exactly the right mood for How Much for Just
>the Planet?

I've always liked HMfJtP?, but I admit to being a full-on theatre nerd. So, ymmv.

--- Philip





Philip J. Moyer
Contributing Writer, Editor and Artist (and Moderator) -- Eyrie Productions, Unlimited
CEO of MTS, High Poobah Of Artwork, and High Priest Of the Church Of Aerianne -- Magnetic Terrapin Studios
"Insert Pithy Comment Here"


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eriktown
Member since Jan-28-06
82 posts
Mar-07-14, 01:16 AM (EST)
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12. "RE: Speaking of Star Trek"
In response to message #11
 
   "My Enemy, My Ally" was one of my favorite Star Trek novels as a kid, which led to twelve year old me sending Diane Duane fan mail on CompuServe (which she kindly answered, and answered my questions about how she machine-generated all the Romulan-language dialogue in detail, which was pretty neat). I recently reread it and thought it was still pretty good. I can see it being a little too precious, I guess, but I really liked what she did not just in building Romulan culture, but in how she captured the various characters we know (and added some OCs I enjoyed too, who also appear in her other ST novels).

Also contains best possible use of a Horta ensign getting indigestion.

"The Romulan Way" builds on a lot more detail of Rihannsu culture and history, though the framing story about McCoy's trial was pretty dull. I haven't actually read any of the Rihannsu books that came after that.

Duane isn't in John M. Ford's class as a writer, but I really liked the direction she took the Romulans, and for that I give her books the title of having done for Romulans what The Final Reflection did for Klingons.


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mdg1
Member since Aug-25-04
962 posts
Mar-07-14, 06:24 AM (EST)
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13. "RE: Speaking of Star Trek"
In response to message #10
 
   Oh, I'm much the same way...

Although I will say that I gained new respect for the book a few years back when I discovered who all the characters were (especially Ilen the Magian)

Mario


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Sofaspud
Member since Apr-7-06
162 posts
Mar-07-14, 02:25 PM (EST)
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14. "RE: Speaking of Star Trek"
In response to message #0
 
   >So since I've started playing STO again and the sinusoidal track that
>is my interest in Star Trek generally seems to be on the upward
>curve at the moment, there are a couple of things I'm curious about
>that I figured I should check with the rest of the class about.

This seems to be happening to a lot of us lately. I've picked back up on STO after a long hiatus and ... well, it's just fun, is what it is.


>1) Star Trek Into Darkness. I skipped it. Mistake or good
>call? I know more or less what happens...

I liked it, but whereas I paid actual money dollars six times over to see Star Trek in the theaters, for Into Darkness I only paid once and was quite content with that.

Further, while I've watched Star Trek multiple times on DVD since the theater days, I've not felt the urge to watch Into Darkness again at all.

Without spoiling, though, I will say that there were quite a few awesome moments in Darkness, including one that my STO-warped brain insists was a STO ground mission with a phaser minigun (I love those things), but on the whole I think the Khan angle was badly handled, and frankly this Cumberbatch character just couldn't hold a candle in this role to the late great Montalban.

YMMV and all that.

>2) The Space WelshRihannsu novels.

So I got these last year as a gift from Valles here on these boards (hi, V!) and they've been an entertaining read. I prefer the interpretation of Romulan culture that they show as opposed to what Memory Alpha says about the Romulans, honestly.

Honestly, they're Star Trek fanfic and read as such, it just so happens that someone got paid for this batch. But this is good fanfic rather than the horrible stuff that we've all seen too much of.

Hm. I might just send you my copy now that I'm done with it, if you want and if you're not dead-set on electronic versions (hey, I seem to recall a rant about you hating to read e-text anything... :D ). I don't currently have a bookcase, which is shameful and I admit it, so it'd probably be safer in your hands than in mine at the moment.

--sofaspud
--


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Gryphonadmin
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Mar-07-14, 02:36 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: Speaking of Star Trek"
In response to message #14
 
   >hey, I seem to recall a rant about you hating to read e-text anything... :D

I don't buy the argument that e-readers are going to Replace Books, and there are tasks for which I still maintain they are wholly inadequate. Trying to do research for a paper, source quotations, etc. with one instead of a proper book is an exercise in woe. Also, I don't think the technology is quite mature yet, particularly in the case of the e-ink ones (I don't think I've ever actually seen an e-ink reader that worked as designed in what I would consider a timely and reliable manner), and the non-e-ink ones are kind of glarey and annoying.

On the OTHER hand, if what you want is to re-read The Final Reflection RIGHT THE HELL NOW, it's out of print in physical media form anyway, it's two in the morning, you're reasonably sure you gave away your last physical copy in a fit of "you haven't read this? oh you must" some time ago, and you won a Kindle Fire in a "thanks for taking a tour of our facility" drawing a couple years ago? It's hard to beat that user experience.

(They're also handy for reading in restaurants, which I admit I am habitually gauche enough to do when I'm dining alone; unlike physical books, you don't need to use a hand to keep them open, which is useful.)

They are what they are. Like many modern technological widgets that pundits claim will replace something from the Elder Days, they aren't as satisfying on a lot of levels and I don't think they're really going to do it, but they have usefulnesses about them.

What I think you're remembering, and what I genuinely hated then and still hate today, is the way translations of existing documents into e-reader formats are generally a) laborious and b) often still shite even if someone does the work. I have a number of cheap-or-free e-books in my KF's library that could be used as coursework examples of the truth of the old saying, "You get what you pay for." They are to OCR-processed documents what Hong Kong Japanese-to-Cantonese-to-English machine-translated subtitles are to subtitles.

(That, and the way early portable display devices couldn't cope with 70-column fixed-pitch text, which can still be a problem today, but not as often - particularly now that most modern smartphones and tablets can work in landscape mode.)

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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Senji
Member since Apr-27-07
105 posts
Mar-07-14, 05:22 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: Speaking of Star Trek"
In response to message #15
 
   > I have a number of cheap-or-free
>e-books in my KF's library that could be used as coursework examples
>of the truth of the old saying, "You get what you pay for." They are
>to OCR-processed documents what Hong Kong
>Japanese-to-Cantonese-to-English machine-translated subtitles are to
>subtitles.
>
Do they rate as excellently as the first UK paperback edition of the Terry Pratchett Book Feet of Clay which for complex reasons was OCRed from the hardback edition in a rush, and they'd retuned the OCR process so that it got 'clay' correct every time; leading to almost any word starting with a 'd' being wrong...

S.


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Gryphonadmin
Charter Member
13423 posts
Mar-07-14, 05:58 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: Speaking of Star Trek"
In response to message #16
 
   >they'd retuned the OCR
>process so that it got 'clay' correct every time; leading to almost
>any word starting with a 'd' being wrong...

What a bunch of clickheacls.

--G.
-><-
Benjamin D. Hutchins, Co-Founder, Editor-in-Chief, & Forum Mod
Eyrie Productions, Unlimited http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
zgryphon at that email service Google has
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.


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twipper
Member since Jan-8-03
212 posts
Mar-08-14, 04:24 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: Speaking of Star Trek"
In response to message #15
 
  
>(They're also handy for reading in restaurants, which I admit I am
>habitually gauche enough to do when I'm dining alone; unlike physical
>books, you don't need to use a hand to keep them open, which is
>useful.)

Pfft, I'm routinely the guy at national conference each year reading in the BAR while my compatriots carouse around me. That does not however stop me from reading in the bar that the industry guys are picking up the tabs at.

Brian


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